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Author Topic: All the fuss over Metropolitan Philip  (Read 10084 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2009, 11:36:54 AM »

NP:  I am sorry to hear of your experience and anger. It is true, some cradle heavy parishes are infused with their own culture to the level of not only not recognizing converts but Orthodox cradles of different ethnic groups!  On the flip side a very good friend of mine converted in the GOC; but as a spouse of a cradel wife and he loves it, yet, has no Greek blood. (What he loves most is the familial aspect of it as he came from a rather small white-bread family.) If I could help you understand many Orthodox came from generations of overlords and invading cultures and isms that sought to eradicate them and their culture. (The Ottoman Turks, Communism, Nazism, Latinization, etc.) In America they were finally free to express their faith and culture to no end and like a starving man who was offered a banquet dove in with gusto.

Anyway, To draw this back to the original the AOC fight is being drawn along ethnic lines. I'm glad you became Orthodox. My saying is this. If every Serb, Arab, Greek, etc. became apostate tomorrow I would still be Orthodox. My faith trumps my ethnicity.

Stay strong!
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« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2009, 11:38:36 AM »

I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I think brother Aidan brought up a good point, there is a lot of convert/cradle stereotyping going on in several jurisdictions at the present time, and some of that has come across in this thread, particularly aimed at "converts"...(Or should I say people who became Orthodox as adults not as infants)

It is true, to a degree that these stereotypes exist because they are true on some level, but I think 'converts' are getting a raw deal these past few months. I agree with aserb, this is indeed a "cradle vs convert" issue, but I'm not sure it's as black and white as some other people make it out to be. There is a feeling among 'cradles' that all us evil converts want to destroy Greek/Russian/Arab etc culture, take away their language, force them to use organs, pews, western music, (oh wait, that was the cradles who introduced those things, oops..lol!) etc....

Some in the Greek/Arab communities think we want to force them to switch to the OCA styled Liturgies and worship, and while this is true among a very select few number of converts, it certainly isn't true of even most converts.

I won't speak for any other converts here or anywhere, but for myself now.

I'm a Greek-O-Phile, I like Greek culture, learned to read Greek, chant in Greek, like Greek dancing, Greek desserts, I've even eaten Greek food (even though I made myself sick doing it once or twice) because I didn't want to offend people...after all, my parish is a Greek parish, and the Greeks are the ones who brought the Church to my area. I respected all things Greek, and grew to love the Greek rite, and in fact, much prefer the Greek Byzantine flavor of worship to any of the others. I like Greek dancing, go to the Greek festival, learned a few phrases in modern Greek, and in fact personally prefer (and can chant) most of the Liturgy in Greek, (even though I think it should be mostly in English)....but in the end, I've been told in no uncertain terms, that all of this is simply "not enough"....I'm still not "Greek enough", and I never will be. And this frankly hurts because I genuinely like Greek culture.

I've done everything I've been asked to do as part of the Greek Church, and yet it was and is not enough. Short of abandoning my identity, cultural, ethnic, and otherwise, there is nothing I can do to be "more Greek"....and you know what, there are a LOT of converts who are beginning to feel the same way. I for one NEVER, EVER asked anyone to give up this or that part of their culture or identity....but instead of being met half way, the bar was raised and I was asked to jump even higher. This has been my experience, and I know that it is not unique. There are plenty of us 'converts' who still do not want to force people to give up their identity and culture, and traditions.....but in return we want to be treated with the same respect. I don't see many ethnic Churches having 'fried chicken dinners' or 'irish festivals' on St. Patrick's day...yet Greek Independence day or the Greek festival rolls around, guess what, the converts willingly come to those and work those events.

I know people who've been Orthodox for 15 years, and finally after the recent months "news" and scandals, they've just given up and are ready to join the OCA because "at least you can be an American"....and they were hardly what you'd call the 'anti-ethnic' converts that some people are making 'converts' out to be.

what is frustrating to converts at this point is not that we want to "Americanize" everything, but that we want to be accepted as "Americans"....just as we accept Arabs or Greeks as Arabs and Greeks, or Russians as Russians.

It is true that some converts simply want things "their way" and wish everything was "Americanized" singing Amazing Grace and all, but again, ironically the one parish that I heard that DID sing Amazing Grace during the Liturgy was a very ethnic parish, so go figure?!

People like myself in fact have tried to understand other cultures, and I think I have a fairly good grasp of the basics of at least Greek culture, but no, I'm not a Greek, and never will be. And people in the Antiochian Church who are Americans, will never be Lebanese or Arab, or Syrian or whatever else. And they shouldn't have to be. Nor should they be asked to become part of that culture. Just like us converts shouldn't try and force our American ways upon them.

I will be the first at my parish, even today, to stand up and defend the Greek Liturgical tradition (and in fact have done so and paid for it), I'll be the first to defend using at least "some" Greek in the Liturgy, and I'll be the first to defend other customs and traditions....and yet, I still think we need to be united, and in the end, what is most important is Christ, not any culture, style of food or music, which is why I WOULD join the OCA if push came to shove at some point in the future and it was for the betterment of my relationship with Christ. Even though, the OCA/Russian style really is my least favorite style of Liturgical celebration....

I have no plans on leaving my jurisdiction, and all this is a tad off topic, but I think TPTB in the Antiochian Church have forgotten that many, many converts have bent over backwards to assimilate into the existing culture, and yet I think they are beginning to feel like even with their effort, they feel like "second class" Orthodox. And no one, cradle or convert should ever be made to feel that way. We are one Church, one body . . . there are no "converts" or "cradles" but we are all Orthodox.

Yup, my idealism I suppose is coming through, yet without that idealism, I couldn't go on.



Bravo! This is another POM.
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« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2009, 11:52:57 AM »

Dear Northern Pines and other folks who became Orthodox as adults  Smiley

First of all, please realize, there are many other folks like myself, who view your entering the church as a long awaited blessing and frankly, an unbelievable miracle. We don't want you to become pseudo Greeks, Arabs, Russians or whatever. We want you to keep your own identity, bring your enthusiasm and fresh ideas with you into the church. As far as we are concerned, there is room at the table for everyone and we look forward to seeing how you will incorporate Orthodoxy into the culture.  Ancient Faith Radio, with it many podcasts, is an example of what those new to church bring to all of us. In my own parish, we have a program started by someone new to Orthodoxy in which we support three homeless people. A few of these homeless people have become regular attendees of the DL.

And as this Antiochian scandal has revealed, many of the wolves in our church are cradle Orthodox Arab mafiosos, pretending to be honorary trustees. I have a message for them: we don't need the likes of you destroying our church. You aren't in the middle east anymore where there is no rule of law. Take your clannish, thuggish, and overbearing middle-eastern ways and get the h-e-double-tooth picks out of the church!  Angry

« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 12:08:39 PM by Tamara » Logged
FatherGiryus
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« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2009, 11:57:43 AM »

Well, NP, I surely respect your tenacity

As an Antiochian Orthodox Christian who converted, I have never felt totally alienated by the Arab community as a whole.  I generally feel alienated by both cradles and converts who are unspiritual.  For example, the pious Arab families are very glad that Americans love their Church, and they get very, very excited when Americans embrace their culture.  You have not lived until you have seen the expression on the face of an Arab woman who has just been told of her cooking, 'I've never had Arabic food before... and it's great!'  At that point, you are a 'cousin.'

I have experienced converts who are just as arrogantly ethno-centric as the worst of any Arabs or Greeks.  I've been looked down upon because I was 'too integrated.'

From what I have observed thus far, the unspiritual, whatever-ethnocentric communities in the Antiochian Archdiocese are a shrinking portion of the community, mostly because they tend not to attract converts beyond the 'founders' and their kids drop the community (if not their Faith) after achieving adulthood.  Therefore, as one who tends to see things on the very-long-range, I think that those ethno-centrics will be wiped clean off the ecclesiastical map in a generation.  We have seen it happen before.

For me, the turning point in relations with heavily ethnic communities comes with participation in their rituals.  For example, attending wakes, and offering congratulations and gifts for family events.  For example, a very ethnic American community will quickly embrace the Arab family that comes to the 4th of July picnic and stays for the fireworks after eating the burgers and hotdogs.  Again, I have seen it happen.  By the end of the evening, they are no longer 'strangers.'

However, the success of this hinges on the character of the receiving group.  If they are unspiritual and selfish, they will eventually find reason to discriminate later.  If they are spiritual, they will be extremely grateful for their new friends who validate their worth by showing interest in their Church and their culture.

When I am discriminated against, I am glad because it saves me having to hang out with bad people who will eventually defraud or abuse me.  Why get emotionally-invested in people like that?

In summary, I think that our 'liturgical flavors' ought to be based on what works in a particular situation.  One of the great fears behind the lack of unity is the fear of change, some of it good, but some of it bad.  Right now, the Antiochian Archdiocese is in a real battle over control precisely because of how change effects the local level.
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« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2009, 12:58:25 PM »

I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I think brother Aidan brought up a good point, there is a lot of convert/cradle stereotyping going on in several jurisdictions at the present time, and some of that has come across in this thread, particularly aimed at "converts"...(Or should I say people who became Orthodox as adults not as infants)

It is true, to a degree that these stereotypes exist because they are true on some level, but I think 'converts' are getting a raw deal these past few months. I agree with aserb, this is indeed a "cradle vs convert" issue, but I'm not sure it's as black and white as some other people make it out to be. There is a feeling among 'cradles' that all us evil converts want to destroy Greek/Russian/Arab etc culture, take away their language, force them to use organs, pews, western music, (oh wait, that was the cradles who introduced those things, oops..lol!) etc....

Some in the Greek/Arab communities think we want to force them to switch to the OCA styled Liturgies and worship, and while this is true among a very select few number of converts, it certainly isn't true of even most converts.

I won't speak for any other converts here or anywhere, but for myself now.

I'm a Greek-O-Phile, I like Greek culture, learned to read Greek, chant in Greek, like Greek dancing, Greek desserts, I've even eaten Greek food (even though I made myself sick doing it once or twice) because I didn't want to offend people...after all, my parish is a Greek parish, and the Greeks are the ones who brought the Church to my area. I respected all things Greek, and grew to love the Greek rite, and in fact, much prefer the Greek Byzantine flavor of worship to any of the others. I like Greek dancing, go to the Greek festival, learned a few phrases in modern Greek, and in fact personally prefer (and can chant) most of the Liturgy in Greek, (even though I think it should be mostly in English)....but in the end, I've been told in no uncertain terms, that all of this is simply "not enough"....I'm still not "Greek enough", and I never will be. And this frankly hurts because I genuinely like Greek culture.

I've done everything I've been asked to do as part of the Greek Church, and yet it was and is not enough. Short of abandoning my identity, cultural, ethnic, and otherwise, there is nothing I can do to be "more Greek"....and you know what, there are a LOT of converts who are beginning to feel the same way. I for one NEVER, EVER asked anyone to give up this or that part of their culture or identity....but instead of being met half way, the bar was raised and I was asked to jump even higher. This has been my experience, and I know that it is not unique. There are plenty of us 'converts' who still do not want to force people to give up their identity and culture, and traditions.....but in return we want to be treated with the same respect. I don't see many ethnic Churches having 'fried chicken dinners' or 'irish festivals' on St. Patrick's day...yet Greek Independence day or the Greek festival rolls around, guess what, the converts willingly come to those and work those events.

I know people who've been Orthodox for 15 years, and finally after the recent months "news" and scandals, they've just given up and are ready to join the OCA because "at least you can be an American"....and they were hardly what you'd call the 'anti-ethnic' converts that some people are making 'converts' out to be.

what is frustrating to converts at this point is not that we want to "Americanize" everything, but that we want to be accepted as "Americans"....just as we accept Arabs or Greeks as Arabs and Greeks, or Russians as Russians.

It is true that some converts simply want things "their way" and wish everything was "Americanized" singing Amazing Grace and all, but again, ironically the one parish that I heard that DID sing Amazing Grace during the Liturgy was a very ethnic parish, so go figure?!

People like myself in fact have tried to understand other cultures, and I think I have a fairly good grasp of the basics of at least Greek culture, but no, I'm not a Greek, and never will be. And people in the Antiochian Church who are Americans, will never be Lebanese or Arab, or Syrian or whatever else. And they shouldn't have to be. Nor should they be asked to become part of that culture. Just like us converts shouldn't try and force our American ways upon them.

I will be the first at my parish, even today, to stand up and defend the Greek Liturgical tradition (and in fact have done so and paid for it), I'll be the first to defend using at least "some" Greek in the Liturgy, and I'll be the first to defend other customs and traditions....and yet, I still think we need to be united, and in the end, what is most important is Christ, not any culture, style of food or music, which is why I WOULD join the OCA if push came to shove at some point in the future and it was for the betterment of my relationship with Christ. Even though, the OCA/Russian style really is my least favorite style of Liturgical celebration....

I have no plans on leaving my jurisdiction, and all this is a tad off topic, but I think TPTB in the Antiochian Church have forgotten that many, many converts have bent over backwards to assimilate into the existing culture, and yet I think they are beginning to feel like even with their effort, they feel like "second class" Orthodox. And no one, cradle or convert should ever be made to feel that way. We are one Church, one body . . . there are no "converts" or "cradles" but we are all Orthodox.

Yup, my idealism I suppose is coming through, yet without that idealism, I couldn't go on.


Your point is well made. One of Bishop Mark’s Midwest parish choir’s want to continue using Arabic even though less than 10% can understand what they are singing. Furthermore they would stop singing if they had to give up their organ and after Liturgy they prefer singing “Onward Christian Soldiers,”  “Ode to Joy,” “God bless America” and other protestant/patriotic hymns instead of “Rejoice O Virgin Theotokos.”                                         Kibbee on Friday – no problem, but Saturday evening Vespers and weekday festal liturgies – big problem.
That Bishop Mark he’s such a fundamentalist! He believes English needs to be the prominent language in America, while never prohibiting the use of Arabic in parishes with a significant population who understand Arabic.  He wants choirs to sing Orthodox hymns in church, he wants parishes to refrain from serving meat on fast days, he expects his priests to serve Saturday evening Vespers, full Sunday morning Orthros and festal liturgies. What was Metropolitan Philip thinking when he “made” +Mark a bishop?
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« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2009, 02:21:28 PM »


This also to you, Aristoklais, we may look like a bunch of church-hopping, congregationalist, western-hymn-singing wannabes, but we actually studied this stuff and believed it to be true (our cursed, Western analytical minds) and gave up a lot (you wouldn' even know) to convert to it. Yes, we struggle with our insticts (to jump ship) when there is a disconnect between what we affirm and what we see on the ground. We ARE hard-wired to jump ship to find a more perfect image that corresponds to the ideal (but, philosophically, aren't we being a bit Greek there? hey, help me out, I am looking for some props for converts -- geez! tough crowd; anyway). Anyway, although to cradles some converts may come off as disrespectful and insensitive, and no doubt there are real examples of converts causing more harm than good, but please don't ask us to be omplacent while y'all solve everything in your good old time (which to us sounds a lot like pleasently accepting the status quo).

Noting, and ignoring your ethnic, slight I must reiterate that I have no dog in this fight as far as I can tell. You are correct, however, as to some of us cradles some converts do seem to be exactly as you describe.

If you took the reference to image/ideal as being points for being Greek as a slight, it was meant as a joke - partly on cradles AND partly on converts.

Get it? Ha ha, in our hard-wired instincts we converts are actually appealing to a Platonic concept - ironically funny, don't you think? And ha ha - you cradles, we are doing something by instinct that relates to the historic culture of the Orthodox Church, which after the Jewish founders, was centered in Asia Minor and Greece in the Roman Empire in New Testament times.

Maybe it wasn't funny, but it wasn't a slight.
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« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2009, 02:23:33 PM »

BRoAidan: I finally got around to reading your long winded reply and no offense was taken, I actually found myself chuckling. As another poster on this site said you are my brother in Christ and you are. You can choose your friends but not your family  Grin


it WAS long-winded!   Smiley
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« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2009, 02:49:13 PM »

I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I think brother Aidan brought up a good point, there is a lot of convert/cradle stereotyping going on in several jurisdictions at the present time, and some of that has come across in this thread, particularly aimed at "converts"...(Or should I say people who became Orthodox as adults not as infants)

It is true, to a degree that these stereotypes exist because they are true on some level, but I think 'converts' are getting a raw deal these past few months. I agree with aserb, this is indeed a "cradle vs convert" issue, but I'm not sure it's as black and white as some other people make it out to be. There is a feeling among 'cradles' that all us evil converts want to destroy Greek/Russian/Arab etc culture, take away their language, force them to use organs, pews, western music, (oh wait, that was the cradles who introduced those things, oops..lol!) etc....

Some in the Greek/Arab communities think we want to force them to switch to the OCA styled Liturgies and worship, and while this is true among a very select few number of converts, it certainly isn't true of even most converts.

I won't speak for any other converts here or anywhere, but for myself now.

I'm a Greek-O-Phile, I like Greek culture, learned to read Greek, chant in Greek, like Greek dancing, Greek desserts, I've even eaten Greek food (even though I made myself sick doing it once or twice) because I didn't want to offend people...after all, my parish is a Greek parish, and the Greeks are the ones who brought the Church to my area. I respected all things Greek, and grew to love the Greek rite, and in fact, much prefer the Greek Byzantine flavor of worship to any of the others. I like Greek dancing, go to the Greek festival, learned a few phrases in modern Greek, and in fact personally prefer (and can chant) most of the Liturgy in Greek, (even though I think it should be mostly in English)....but in the end, I've been told in no uncertain terms, that all of this is simply "not enough"....I'm still not "Greek enough", and I never will be. And this frankly hurts because I genuinely like Greek culture.

I've done everything I've been asked to do as part of the Greek Church, and yet it was and is not enough. Short of abandoning my identity, cultural, ethnic, and otherwise, there is nothing I can do to be "more Greek"....and you know what, there are a LOT of converts who are beginning to feel the same way. I for one NEVER, EVER asked anyone to give up this or that part of their culture or identity....but instead of being met half way, the bar was raised and I was asked to jump even higher.




I have in recent years begun cautioning protestants to not be in a rush to convert. You have to leave alot behind even if ethnic stuff doesn't enter much into your experience and it is not easy to do. I would have remained like the Greek God-fearers in the New Testament who loved the Jewish faith but didn't want to fully convert. I would have attended vespers and loved the DL from a distance and embraced crossing myself and written prayers and candles and incense into my personal and private spiritual life and continued in my emergent-church parish if I had known what converting really involved.

In some ways I regret that that is NOT the path I chose. But I am too far in to leave now so Orthodoxy is stuck with me.

I actually do not have any ethnic horror stories from my parish-life experience. There was a brief period of passive-aggressive silliness from some folks in the choir, mainly because I am close to our priest and some of them have issues with him. One of them asked me, about 2 years in, how I was doing in our parish and I told her that I was tired of kissing Russian #^% and after that everyone backed off and I have't had a problem.

When I joined our parish there was some excitement because at 49 years old, it seemed as if they had just gotten a new member for the youth group!

Sadly, there are only a few families behind me in age (most everyone else is same age or older) and most of their kids don't hang around after they go to college.

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« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2009, 03:50:32 PM »

And as this Antiochian scandal has revealed, many of the wolves in our church are cradle Orthodox Arab mafiosos, pretending to be honorary trustees. I have a message for them: we don't need the likes of you destroying our church. You aren't in the middle east anymore where there is no rule of law. Take your clannish, thuggish, and overbearing middle-eastern ways and get the h-e-double-tooth picks out of the church!  Angry


What?  No call to repent?  Just a hard, judgmental command to "GET OUT!"?
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« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2009, 04:33:42 PM »

And as this Antiochian scandal has revealed, many of the wolves in our church are cradle Orthodox Arab mafiosos, pretending to be honorary trustees. I have a message for them: we don't need the likes of you destroying our church. You aren't in the middle east anymore where there is no rule of law. Take your clannish, thuggish, and overbearing middle-eastern ways and get the h-e-double-tooth picks out of the church!  Angry


What?  No call to repent?  Just a hard, judgmental command to "GET OUT!"?

Would that the Arab mafiosos were only pretending to be honorary trustees!  No, the only Arabic speaking laymen whom Metropolitan Philip sent as part of his delegation to the Holy Synod of Antioch were an actual honorary trustee with Federal felony convictions for money-laundering and weapons charges ($12 million in cash moved in 'structured' deposits in one day!  evidently connected to some Detroit drug gang) and an actual active trustee with a conviction in Connecticut for embezzling money from a charity, the primary actual purpose of which seems to have been as a vehicle for embezzlement (and which blasphemed the name of the Holy Trinity using it as a front for theft).

The Honorary Trustee Walid Khalife, has since been sending menacing e-mails to Bishop Mark, Fr. Patrick Reardon, other priests and laymen throughout the Diocese of Toledo.  Is it just me, or does "One day you are going to see the devil and regret what you have been doing. And you dont know what is devil, i will assure you and make sure you will meet him one day," sound like a veiled death threat to any of you as well?  (That's from an e-mail from Khalife to a prominent Chicago layman.)

You can read a carefully documented account of their background at www.antiochianinfo.org.

I really hope that Khalife's vehemence is merely born out of Arab clannishness and an over-developed sense of personal loyalty to Met. Philip.  If not, it suggests that something very worldly and a bit sinister could be the common undergirding for +Philip's refusal to even discuss outside audits and his sudden attack on traditional Orthodox ecclesiology.
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« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2009, 06:59:11 PM »

And as this Antiochian scandal has revealed, many of the wolves in our church are cradle Orthodox Arab mafiosos, pretending to be honorary trustees. I have a message for them: we don't need the likes of you destroying our church. You aren't in the middle east anymore where there is no rule of law. Take your clannish, thuggish, and overbearing middle-eastern ways and get the h-e-double-tooth picks out of the church!  Angry


What?  No call to repent?  Just a hard, judgmental command to "GET OUT!"?

Would that the Arab mafiosos were only pretending to be honorary trustees!  No, the only Arabic speaking laymen whom Metropolitan Philip sent as part of his delegation to the Holy Synod of Antioch were an actual honorary trustee with Federal felony convictions for money-laundering and weapons charges ($12 million in cash moved in 'structured' deposits in one day!  evidently connected to some Detroit drug gang) and an actual active trustee with a conviction in Connecticut for embezzling money from a charity, the primary actual purpose of which seems to have been as a vehicle for embezzlement (and which blasphemed the name of the Holy Trinity using it as a front for theft).

The Honorary Trustee Walid Khalife, has since been sending menacing e-mails to Bishop Mark, Fr. Patrick Reardon, other priests and laymen throughout the Diocese of Toledo.  Is it just me, or does "One day you are going to see the devil and regret what you have been doing. And you dont know what is devil, i will assure you and make sure you will meet him one day," sound like a veiled death threat to any of you as well?  (That's from an e-mail from Khalife to a prominent Chicago layman.)

You can read a carefully documented account of their background at www.antiochianinfo.org.

I really hope that Khalife's vehemence is merely born out of Arab clannishness and an over-developed sense of personal loyalty to Met. Philip.  If not, it suggests that something very worldly and a bit sinister could be the common undergirding for +Philip's refusal to even discuss outside audits and his sudden attack on traditional Orthodox ecclesiology.

Those death threat emails are against the law.  They should be reported to the police!
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« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2009, 09:04:24 PM »

. . . Is it just me, or does "One day you are going to see the devil and regret what you have been doing. And you dont know what is devil, i will assure you and make sure you will meet him one day," sound like a veiled death threat to any of you as well?  (That's from an e-mail from Khalife to a prominent Chicago layman.)


Those death threat emails are against the law.  They should be reported to the police!

So it's not just me.  The problem is that before a statement constitutes a threat in the legal sense, it must be understood as threatening harm by a reasonable hearer to whom it is addressed, a reasonable third party hearing the communication, or a reasonable speaker making the statement (depending on which Appeals Court circuit one is in, though the 'reasonable hearer to whom it is addressed is the most common standard).

I take it, Orual, that you are a reasonable person, so that makes two of us who think that sounds like a death threat.  I agree.  Various folks posting on ocanews.org have advocated taking the matter to the police, and I have privately advocated doing so to a party to whom Mr. Khalife in a stroke of bad judgment had sent copies.
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« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2009, 09:45:43 PM »

Subdeacon David,

I have also encouraged a party who was threatened by this thug to report the threat to law enforcement. With his criminal background it wouldn't be hard to imagine the law coming down hard on this criminal. These guys need to know they are no longer in the lawless middle east and their despicable behavior will not be tolerated by any of us!

sincerely, Tamara

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« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2009, 09:49:32 PM »

. . . Is it just me, or does "One day you are going to see the devil and regret what you have been doing. And you dont know what is devil, i will assure you and make sure you will meet him one day," sound like a veiled death threat to any of you as well?  (That's from an e-mail from Khalife to a prominent Chicago layman.)


Those death threat emails are against the law.  They should be reported to the police!

So it's not just me.  The problem is that before a statement constitutes a threat in the legal sense, it must be understood as threatening harm by a reasonable hearer to whom it is addressed, a reasonable third party hearing the communication, or a reasonable speaker making the statement (depending on which Appeals Court circuit one is in, though the 'reasonable hearer to whom it is addressed is the most common standard).

I take it, Orual, that you are a reasonable person, so that makes two of us who think that sounds like a death threat.  I agree.  Various folks posting on ocanews.org have advocated taking the matter to the police, and I have privately advocated doing so to a party to whom Mr. Khalife in a stroke of bad judgment had sent copies.

This Walid Khalife guy has a screw loose.  Bishop Mark and Fr Patrick may be in serious danger, and they need to be protected.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 09:54:24 PM by Orual » Logged

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« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2009, 06:17:48 AM »

I have heard from a friend who is going to the convention that there is a movement afoot to halt all business until this foolishness is dealt with..There are still rumors going around that the Patriarch of Antioch will be there.
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« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2009, 08:22:42 AM »

. . . Is it just me, or does "One day you are going to see the devil and regret what you have been doing. And you dont know what is devil, i will assure you and make sure you will meet him one day," sound like a veiled death threat to any of you as well?  (That's from an e-mail from Khalife to a prominent Chicago layman.)


Those death threat emails are against the law.  They should be reported to the police!

So it's not just me.  The problem is that before a statement constitutes a threat in the legal sense, it must be understood as threatening harm by a reasonable hearer to whom it is addressed, a reasonable third party hearing the communication, or a reasonable speaker making the statement (depending on which Appeals Court circuit one is in, though the 'reasonable hearer to whom it is addressed is the most common standard).

I take it, Orual, that you are a reasonable person, so that makes two of us who think that sounds like a death threat.  I agree.  Various folks posting on ocanews.org have advocated taking the matter to the police, and I have privately advocated doing so to a party to whom Mr. Khalife in a stroke of bad judgment had sent copies.

This Walid Khalife guy has a screw loose.  Bishop Mark and Fr Patrick may be in serious danger, and they need to be protected.
It has been reported that at the Midwest Parish Life Conference the FBI has agents shadowing Bishop Mark.
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« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2009, 09:57:29 AM »

Thank God...isn't this sad? FBI agents shadowing a Bishop because of cronies of Met.Phillip.
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« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2009, 12:32:16 PM »

Just wanted to give a "thanks" to all the encouraging words. And I certainly don't want to be too hard on my parish, as it has really become "less" ethnic in it's outlook over the years, and really is pretty "American".... for the most part people are ok with it. But there are a few hold outs who attempt to tighten their grip more and more, and these are the ones with the "power" in the community.

Most aren't like that, but it only takes a few, and when those few control most everything, well.......as is the case with the Antiochians I suppose to, just a few at the top, but when they're at the top it makes it hard for everyone, both cradle and converts.



« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 12:33:38 PM by NorthernPines » Logged
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