Author Topic: Should Christians be Vegetarians?  (Read 14424 times)

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Offline AlexanderOfBergamo

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #180 on: July 14, 2009, 03:19:35 PM »
I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam


I promised to myself not to read the other answers to this topic. I'll directly give my personal answer to your questions. As a premise, I state firmly that I have a strong respect for vegetarians, but I'm not one, and don't feel it necessary for salvation.
1.Actually in this life we are still mortal, we must wait for the results of the Resurrection to have a perfected body back. 2. I'm not a Creationist. Anyway, even assuming a literal interpretation of Genesis: the dove shows that plants survived (the olive) and on the Ark there were only couples of animals: what would they eat if they had to wait for the animals to have babies? Eating food is necessary for sustainance in a fallen world in general 3. Jesus said that what enters our mouth is pure, but what gets out is impure, declaring all alimentary laws ineffective. Also Paul repeated that what is eaten with a blessing is pure. 4. The same as answer (1) 5. When I saw a friend of mine FAIDING for having refused to eat meat for some days, I can assure you that at least a minimal assumption of meat is somehow necessary for our existence 6. This is a proof from economy, not from revelation. Are you putting at rest your car for a similar reason? 7. When Jesus transferred some demons into pigs and had them suicide in a pit, he didn't show the same kind of respect. Animals, while having a great function in the world (I love pets and think they're adorable and loving to us) are clearly not at the same level as humans, and shouldn't be overestimated. The image of God is in mankind alone: animals are only creatures of God as well as stones and plants, you know? Do you show the same kind of respect to apples? 8. Hitler was vegetarian too. Don't think being vegetarian helped him be better: the two things are not necessarily linked to each other!

I also add two reflections:1. the Orthodox have an ultra-vegan diet for some 250 days a year... 2. why do you eat fish? Aren't they animals too?

In Christ,   Alex
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 03:41:22 PM by AlexanderOfBergamo »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #181 on: July 14, 2009, 04:19:31 PM »
Recalling that it is what comes out of a person's mouth, not what goes in, that matters, eat whatever helps you be more Christ-like...and quit worrying over the small stuff.

That's true, except... bacteria still DO go into a person's mouth, and oh yes, they do matter...

And said bacteria cannot be avoided, if that matters at all. ;)

We need all kinds of bacteria in our digestive system in order for it to function properly. After you have been on a course of antibiotics, for example, you have killed off both good and bad bacteria and need to re-supply your body.

The idea that we must concentrate on avoiding germs is the most popular medical theory today. But there are different idea's about that. Another paradigm is that we should concentrate on building ourselves up so our natural defenses can sort through what is good or bad in our systems. The "Context" that a germ is put into is most important, not that we have had contact with it.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #182 on: July 14, 2009, 09:12:32 PM »
I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam


I promised to myself not to read the other answers to this topic. I'll directly give my personal answer to your questions. As a premise, I state firmly that I have a strong respect for vegetarians, but I'm not one, and don't feel it necessary for salvation.
1.Actually in this life we are still mortal, we must wait for the results of the Resurrection to have a perfected body back. 2. I'm not a Creationist. Anyway, even assuming a literal interpretation of Genesis: the dove shows that plants survived (the olive) and on the Ark there were only couples of animals: what would they eat if they had to wait for the animals to have babies? Eating food is necessary for sustainance in a fallen world in general 3. Jesus said that what enters our mouth is pure, but what gets out is impure, declaring all alimentary laws ineffective. Also Paul repeated that what is eaten with a blessing is pure. 4. The same as answer (1) 5. When I saw a friend of mine FAIDING for having refused to eat meat for some days, I can assure you that at least a minimal assumption of meat is somehow necessary for our existence 6. This is a proof from economy, not from revelation. Are you putting at rest your car for a similar reason? 7. When Jesus transferred some demons into pigs and had them suicide in a pit, he didn't show the same kind of respect. Animals, while having a great function in the world (I love pets and think they're adorable and loving to us) are clearly not at the same level as humans, and shouldn't be overestimated. The image of God is in mankind alone: animals are only creatures of God as well as stones and plants, you know? Do you show the same kind of respect to apples? 8. Hitler was vegetarian too. Don't think being vegetarian helped him be better: the two things are not necessarily linked to each other!

I also add two reflections:1. the Orthodox have an ultra-vegan diet for some 250 days a year... 2. why do you eat fish? Aren't they animals too?

In Christ,   Alex

Good responses. Thank you.

I want to be clear that I never stated or implied in any way that what one eats or does not eat is essential to spiritual salvation. I started this thread to express my personal views and generate some good discussion about diet, health, social consciousness, and Christain teaching. I think that we have all learned a lot from these various responses. I have learned much, although I choose to reamain a vegetarian (not a vegan.)

I eat fish because Our Lord ate fish. But of course I abstain from it during our Fast days.

I asked why it would be wrong to eat human flesh (as long as one did not murder in order to obtain it) if the argument about "all things are clean" is to remain consistent. Of course I know that humans are uniquely created in the image of God, and thus are to be respected above all other created things. That's one reason I am a pacifist.

I like your comments about vegetation being present even during the flood. I think you are correct. Someone earlier pointed out that there must have also been seaweed. I can't remember where I heard that argument about God allowing meat to be eaten since the flood had destroyed all the vegetation. (Maybe the Seven Day Adventist teach this?) That argument obviously has some flaws in it, and is not the crux of my vegetarian convictions anyway.

Thanks again for the good comments. :)

Selam
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Selam, +GMK+

Offline AlexanderOfBergamo

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #183 on: July 16, 2009, 07:24:59 AM »
Quote
Good responses. Thank you.

I want to be clear that I never stated or implied in any way that what one eats or does not eat is essential to spiritual salvation. I started this thread to express my personal views and generate some good discussion about diet, health, social consciousness, and Christain teaching. I think that we have all learned a lot from these various responses. I have learned much, although I choose to reamain a vegetarian (not a vegan.)

I eat fish because Our Lord ate fish. But of course I abstain from it during our Fast days.

I asked why it would be wrong to eat human flesh (as long as one did not murder in order to obtain it) if the argument about "all things are clean" is to remain consistent. Of course I know that humans are uniquely created in the image of God, and thus are to be respected above all other created things. That's one reason I am a pacifist.

I like your comments about vegetation being present even during the flood. I think you are correct. Someone earlier pointed out that there must have also been seaweed. I can't remember where I heard that argument about God allowing meat to be eaten since the flood had destroyed all the vegetation. (Maybe the Seven Day Adventist teach this?) That argument obviously has some flaws in it, and is not the crux of my vegetarian convictions anyway.

Thanks again for the good comments. Smiley

Selam

Hi my friend!
On the question of why we can't eat humans, I have found my personal answer. Genesis says that Adam was given power and possession over animals. On the contrary Eve - being of the same nature as Adam -  was said to be complementary to him. Eve was not a possession of Adam (even after the consequences of the Fall), she was on his same level, bone of bone and flesh of flesh with him. This makes the difference.

On your consuming fish, I only partially agree with your conclusions. There's no element in the Bible, after all, that might let us think Jesus never ate meat. And the fact that he celebrated at least three Passover Meals in his life (and that he was even the director in the Last Supper) makes me think he also ate the lamb with his disciples...

Anyway, I support your diet as you have your respectable convictions, and of course you are showing great respect with creation, which I think is indeed a very good choice. I am myself against all violence to animals...  and your cause is good and legitimate!

In Christ, your brother Alex
"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")

Offline Ian Lazarus

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #184 on: July 21, 2009, 07:55:50 PM »
We cant eat humand becasue they're the only animal on earth that doesen't taste great inbetween two pieces of bread and mustard.

and that whole moral thingy......
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #185 on: July 21, 2009, 09:00:32 PM »
We cant eat humand becasue they're the only animal on earth that doesen't taste great inbetween two pieces of bread and mustard.

and that whole moral thingy......

Well, as far as your first point goes, that's pretty subjective. There may be some out there who think human flesh tastes great between two pieces of bread.

Of course I agree with you about the "moral thingy." But my question was directly related to the argument that "all things are clean." If this is literaly true, then wouldn't human flesh be clean as well? And I stipulated that it could not involve murder, but that if a human being was killed in war, then why not eat it if all things are truly clean? I am using an absurd example to try to point out the absurdity of using the "all things are clean" argument for eating meat.

Selam
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Offline simplygermain

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #186 on: July 21, 2009, 10:09:28 PM »
I tell you what, if you were layin' dead next to me, and I was starving and near death with no other food to eat, You'd look tasty with or without the mustard and sliced bread! :laugh:
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 10:10:44 PM by simplygermain »
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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #187 on: July 21, 2009, 10:12:37 PM »
I tell you what, if you were layin' dead next to me, and I was starving and near death with no other food to eat, You'd look tasty with or without the mustard and sliced bread! :laugh:
Lord please bless the food (which used to be one of your servants) and drink (which is his blood) of this your servant.... ;) ;D ;D
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 10:13:23 PM by simplygermain »
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #188 on: July 21, 2009, 10:26:57 PM »
I tell you what, if you were layin' dead next to me, and I was starving and near death with no other food to eat, You'd look tasty with or without the mustard and sliced bread! :laugh:
Lord please bless the food (which used to be one of your servants) and drink (which is his blood) of this your servant.... ;) ;D ;D

Of course. And you'd probably look tasty to me too.

But again, if "all things are clean," then why waste all that good "clean" meat that could be used to feed starving people. I mean, if war is justified and if God intends for us to eat any and all types of meat, then it seems very logical and practical to use the "meat" of those who have been killed in war to feed starving people. I mean, how can those who defend war and proclaim that "all things are clean" argue against my logic here? Again, I know this sounds absurd, but I'm just trying to press the consistency to its logical end.

Selam
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Offline AlexanderOfBergamo

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #189 on: July 22, 2009, 07:35:30 AM »
On the subject "all things are clean" I might change your perspective.
A human body, both living of dead, is not a 'thing'. Since death only separates body and spirit from the point of view of matter, but the person remains one in both elements (body and spirit), even a dead human body is still a person, and not a thing.

In Christ,   Alex
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Offline simplygermain

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #190 on: July 22, 2009, 02:00:50 PM »
On the subject "all things are clean" I might change your perspective.
A human body, both living of dead, is not a 'thing'. Since death only separates body and spirit from the point of view of matter, but the person remains one in both elements (body and spirit), even a dead human body is still a person, and not a thing.

In Christ,   Alex
Great Post! I have to agree. With this approach, one can assess the seperation between Man and every other created "thing". This is what makes us different. This is why we, as humans, are meant for more than the ultimate destiny of a dog or a rock. Also, this seperates Christianity from such religions as Paganism, Bhuddism, Hinduism, and New Age. We are not all created equal to other created things. We have "being" or soul.
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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #191 on: July 22, 2009, 04:08:35 PM »
Well, as far as your first point goes, that's pretty subjective. There may be some out there who think human flesh tastes great between two pieces of bread.

Of course I agree with you about the "moral thingy." But my question was directly related to the argument that "all things are clean." If this is literaly true, then wouldn't human flesh be clean as well? And I stipulated that it could not involve murder, but that if a human being was killed in war, then why not eat it if all things are truly clean? I am using an absurd example to try to point out the absurdity of using the "all things are clean" argument for eating meat.

Selam

Humans have a soul. Animals do not. Human bodies are a temple for the Holy Spirit, and are not to be desecrated. This is why the Church is against cremation.
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #192 on: July 22, 2009, 06:41:38 PM »
AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
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Offline simplygermain

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #193 on: July 22, 2009, 07:21:24 PM »
AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #194 on: July 22, 2009, 11:47:47 PM »
AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
.....wa'did we win?

A free vegetarian supper at my house! When can you come? ;)

Selam
"There are two great tragedies: one is to live a life ruled by the passions, and the other is to live a passionless life."
Selam, +GMK+

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #195 on: July 22, 2009, 11:54:28 PM »
AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
.....wa'did we win?

A free vegetarian supper at my house! When can you come? ;)

Selam
on a Fast day. ;)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 11:55:08 PM by simplygermain »
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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #196 on: July 23, 2009, 12:07:03 AM »
AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
.....wa'did we win?

A free vegetarian supper at my house! When can you come? ;)

Selam
on a Fast day. ;)

No, that won't work. I like to wash my veggie burgers down with a cold Guiness! ;)

Selam
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Selam, +GMK+

Offline simplygermain

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #197 on: July 23, 2009, 12:29:35 AM »
I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #198 on: July 23, 2009, 01:26:42 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Guinness.jpg Well there you go!

Ahhhh, nice.

My birthday is Sunday. I'll be 41! I'm gonna enjoy a nice Salmon dinner with my family and imbibe a cold Guiness (or 2 ;)).

Selam
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 01:27:11 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline simplygermain

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #199 on: July 23, 2009, 11:58:32 AM »
Many Years! Happy Birthday! Mine's on the 16th Aug. I'll be 33! Salmon and Guinness sounds great.  ;D
I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #200 on: July 23, 2009, 12:32:24 PM »
Many Years! Happy Birthday! Mine's on the 16th Aug. I'll be 33! Salmon and Guinness sounds great.  ;D

Are fish vegetables? I really need to know  :o
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline simplygermain

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #201 on: July 23, 2009, 01:02:16 PM »
Many Years! Happy Birthday! Mine's on the 16th Aug. I'll be 33! Salmon and Guinness sounds great.  ;D

Are fish vegetables? I really need to know  :o

No, but i'm becoming a vegetable by staying on this thread! If I don't get outta here soon, I may just tell GMK to "eat me!"  :D ;D :o :) ??? :D ;D
I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

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Offline AlexanderOfBergamo

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #202 on: July 23, 2009, 01:59:38 PM »
AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
.....wa'did we win?

A free vegetarian supper at my house! When can you come? ;)

Selam

I'd like to accept your invitation, If weren't living on the opposite side of the Atlantic Ocean...  ;)

Anyway, happy birthday  ;D eat salmon and drink Guinness for me too!

In Christ,   Alex
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #203 on: July 23, 2009, 04:58:29 PM »
Thanks guys! :)

Selam
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #204 on: July 13, 2014, 04:47:07 PM »
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 04:48:54 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
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Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #205 on: July 13, 2014, 07:37:46 PM »
Part of the question is how long you think Humans have been around. If you answer 6,000 years or so then it doesn't matter if we are vegetarians. If you answer a couple of million years then we could not have survived as a species or changed to make a modern person if we were vegetarians.. We would have died off quickly

The most modern version of our species is a creature of the Ice Age, the last 100,000 years or so. We are adapted to eating fat and meat. We hunted mega fauna mainly ( large animals). Farming is new to us, only the last 10,000 years. Most humans could not have gathered enough plants and roots in the wild before agriculture..

More important, vegetarians become deficient in vital nutrients we only get from meat and fat. Women veterinarians often become infertile and are cured with high fat diets. Hormonal balance becomes greatly dis-regulated..On and on.. We would have died off.

 Remember, Hitler was a vegetarian and Jesus ate meat... Go figure.     
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #206 on: July 15, 2014, 01:16:21 PM »
Remember, Hitler was a vegetarian and Jesus ate meat... Go figure.     
Godwin's Law strikes again!
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #207 on: July 15, 2014, 01:26:24 PM »
Remember, Hitler was a vegetarian and Jesus ate meat... Go figure.     
Godwin's Law strikes again!

I'm not complaining, I got a bingo square out of that!
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #208 on: July 15, 2014, 01:32:24 PM »
Remember, Hitler was a vegetarian and Jesus ate meat... Go figure.     
Godwin's Law strikes again!

I'm not complaining, I got a bingo square out of that!
Anything I can do to help. ;) ;D :laugh:
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #209 on: July 15, 2014, 02:59:09 PM »
Remember, Hitler was a vegetarian and Jesus ate meat... Go figure.     
Godwin's Law strikes again!

I'm not complaining, I got a bingo square out of that!
Anything I can do to help. ;) ;D :laugh:

Golly..such weak pot shots lately.. You guys are slipping.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #210 on: July 15, 2014, 03:29:44 PM »
Remember, Hitler was a vegetarian and Jesus ate meat... Go figure.     
Godwin's Law strikes again!

I'm not complaining, I got a bingo square out of that!
Anything I can do to help. ;) ;D :laugh:

Golly..such weak pot shots lately.. You guys are slipping.

Peter and I were talking about Bingo. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline jah777

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #211 on: July 15, 2014, 03:52:19 PM »
Remember, Hitler was a vegetarian and Jesus ate meat... Go figure.     

Watch out for those genocidal vegetarians!  If only Hitler ate meat he wouldn't feel the need to gas jews.  ::)

Well, I guess that is one thing that Hitler has in common with Gandhi as well as Orthodox monks.

I bet you wear pants like Hitler too.  Jesus wore a robe.   :P
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 03:53:44 PM by jah777 »

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #212 on: July 15, 2014, 04:04:53 PM »
Remember, Hitler was a vegetarian and Jesus ate meat... Go figure.     

Watch out for those genocidal vegetarians!  If only Hitler ate meat he wouldn't feel the need to gas jews.  ::)

Well, I guess that is one thing that Hitler has in common with Gandhi as well as Orthodox monks.

I bet you wear pants like Hitler too.  Jesus wore a robe.   :P

Vegetarians become depleted of many vital nutrients especially if they eat little fat..The lack of B12 does indeed make people aggressive. The lack of fat inhibits brain function and accelerates dementia.

At the least, you could say being a Vegetarian didn't make Hitler more peaceful.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline vamrat

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #213 on: July 15, 2014, 04:15:27 PM »
Remember, Hitler was a vegetarian and Jesus ate meat... Go figure.     

Watch out for those genocidal vegetarians!  If only Hitler ate meat he wouldn't feel the need to gas jews.  ::)

Well, I guess that is one thing that Hitler has in common with Gandhi as well as Orthodox monks.

I bet you wear pants like Hitler too.  Jesus wore a robe.   :P

Precisely.  If Hitler hadn't been a vegetarian he would have had a big old greasy bacon double cheese burger on Sept. 1st 2939 and then he would have been in the bathroom all the way up til June 22nd 1944.  That would have been waaaay to late to have gotten the war going, so no WWII.

Thanks Obama.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #214 on: July 15, 2014, 04:19:01 PM »
If he had been healthier maybe he wouldnt have been so whacked out.

For example he develped a bad tremor. He understood that his lifetime was ending. That is why he sped up the timetable in Russia which led to his defeat there.

No vegitarianism, no tremor, no imparied brain function no silly tactical moves in Russia..............  I dunno
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 04:20:28 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline jah777

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #216 on: July 16, 2014, 10:52:29 AM »
Hitler wasn't a vegetarian:

http://www.naturalnews.com/025163_Hitler_vegetarian_vegetarianism.html#

http://www.vegsource.com/berry/hitler.html



There has been some revisionist history floating around lately by embarrassed vegetarians denying Hitler was a vegetarian..

However, interviews with his personal Chef says he was.... Of course he would cheat once in awhile but nearly all vegetarians cheat once in a while. They become so depleted that they can't resist a cheat or two to feel better..That is why it is so hard to scientifically test vegetarians, they all cheat.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #217 on: July 16, 2014, 10:58:58 AM »
Here is an example of what I am talking about. This is by a militant Vegetarian with an ax to grind. He points out that Hitler cheated on his Vegetarian Diet so he declares him "Not a Vegetarian". However, Hitler was in fact typical of vegetarians who mostly eat a plant based diet but then cheat.. Very common. Hitler was a vegetarian in the manner of most vegetarians.

http://www.whale.to/b/Hitler_was_a_vegetarian_myth..html

"When my book “Famous Vegetarians” was published, I was constantly being heckled by hostile nonvegetarians who asked me why I hadn’t put Hitler in the book. So I decided to research the matter and discovered five primary sources and countless secondary sources attesting that Hitler continued to eat liver dumplings, cured ham and other meats throughout his life; so he was emphatically not a vegetarian.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline jah777

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #218 on: July 16, 2014, 12:28:28 PM »
Here is an example of what I am talking about. This is by a militant Vegetarian with an ax to grind. He points out that Hitler cheated on his Vegetarian Diet so he declares him "Not a Vegetarian". However, Hitler was in fact typical of vegetarians who mostly eat a plant based diet but then cheat.. Very common. Hitler was a vegetarian in the manner of most vegetarians.

http://www.whale.to/b/Hitler_was_a_vegetarian_myth..html

"When my book “Famous Vegetarians” was published, I was constantly being heckled by hostile nonvegetarians who asked me why I hadn’t put Hitler in the book. So I decided to research the matter and discovered five primary sources and countless secondary sources attesting that Hitler continued to eat liver dumplings, cured ham and other meats throughout his life; so he was emphatically not a vegetarian.

Well, if he continued to eat meat throughout his life, and even if he ate eggs, cheese, and milk like most vegetarians, he probably wouldn't have a problem with B12. 

I don't know where your "facts" come from about vegetarians.  When you say "vegetarians become depleted of many vital nutrients" but then say "they all cheat", isn't this contradictory?  If they are eating meat then how can their supposed nutrient depletion be attributed to not eating meat? 

It cannot be said that whether or not one eats meat automatically makes a person healthy or unhealthy.  A person can stop eating meat, claim to be a vegetarian, yet live off pasta and junk food, for instance.  Both meat eaters and non-meat eaters can have nutrient depletion.   

As far as "they all cheat", what is the basis of this assertion?  I suppose people make the decision to stop eating meat for a variety of reasons, and depending on those reasons it could be more or less "difficult" or "tempting" to eat meat again but do you have any basis for this claim? 

Offline methodius

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #219 on: July 16, 2014, 01:29:09 PM »
 this seems to have drifted away from the topic ...?
kyrie eleison

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #220 on: July 16, 2014, 01:38:11 PM »
Quote
Should Christians be Vegetarians?

On fast days, yes.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #221 on: July 16, 2014, 03:01:55 PM »
Here is an example of what I am talking about. This is by a militant Vegetarian with an ax to grind. He points out that Hitler cheated on his Vegetarian Diet so he declares him "Not a Vegetarian". However, Hitler was in fact typical of vegetarians who mostly eat a plant based diet but then cheat.. Very common. Hitler was a vegetarian in the manner of most vegetarians.

http://www.whale.to/b/Hitler_was_a_vegetarian_myth..html

"When my book “Famous Vegetarians” was published, I was constantly being heckled by hostile nonvegetarians who asked me why I hadn’t put Hitler in the book. So I decided to research the matter and discovered five primary sources and countless secondary sources attesting that Hitler continued to eat liver dumplings, cured ham and other meats throughout his life; so he was emphatically not a vegetarian.

Well, if he continued to eat meat throughout his life, and even if he ate eggs, cheese, and milk like most vegetarians, he probably wouldn't have a problem with B12.  

I don't know where your "facts" come from about vegetarians.  When you say "vegetarians become depleted of many vital nutrients" but then say "they all cheat", isn't this contradictory?  If they are eating meat then how can their supposed nutrient depletion be attributed to not eating meat?  

It cannot be said that whether or not one eats meat automatically makes a person healthy or unhealthy.  A person can stop eating meat, claim to be a vegetarian, yet live off pasta and junk food, for instance.  Both meat eaters and non-meat eaters can have nutrient depletion.    

As far as "they all cheat", what is the basis of this assertion?  I suppose people make the decision to stop eating meat for a variety of reasons, and depending on those reasons it could be more or less "difficult" or "tempting" to eat meat again but do you have any basis for this claim?  

Youre right there are many varieties of vegetarian.If they are vegan or dont regularly eat the things you suggest like eggs and try to keep their diet low in fat, they will become depleted of the nutrients only found ( in a high quality form) in meat and fat. B12, Zinc, A, D and K2 to mention a few. The lack of fat starves the brain which accelerates dementia and can cause everyday brain fog.

So yes, they get too depleted and then eat a little meat/fat and feel better.

That is different from intermittent fasting. A long period of vegan and then a longer period of meat eating. That pattern can be healthy.

They have induced what their body interprets as a famine.. Famines dont end when you get a bit of food. It is just a boost in the middle of a famine. The body alters your metabolism to help you survive.. If it goes on too long this can cause metabolic syndrome and sometimes infertility.

So..back to the topic..God probably doesn't want us to be sick, demented and infertile.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 03:02:46 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #222 on: July 16, 2014, 03:07:09 PM »
Here is an example of what I am talking about. This is by a militant Vegetarian with an ax to grind. He points out that Hitler cheated on his Vegetarian Diet so he declares him "Not a Vegetarian". However, Hitler was in fact typical of vegetarians who mostly eat a plant based diet but then cheat.. Very common. Hitler was a vegetarian in the manner of most vegetarians.

http://www.whale.to/b/Hitler_was_a_vegetarian_myth..html

"When my book “Famous Vegetarians” was published, I was constantly being heckled by hostile nonvegetarians who asked me why I hadn’t put Hitler in the book. So I decided to research the matter and discovered five primary sources and countless secondary sources attesting that Hitler continued to eat liver dumplings, cured ham and other meats throughout his life; so he was emphatically not a vegetarian.

Well, if he continued to eat meat throughout his life, and even if he ate eggs, cheese, and milk like most vegetarians, he probably wouldn't have a problem with B12.  

I don't know where your "facts" come from about vegetarians.  When you say "vegetarians become depleted of many vital nutrients" but then say "they all cheat", isn't this contradictory?  If they are eating meat then how can their supposed nutrient depletion be attributed to not eating meat?  

It cannot be said that whether or not one eats meat automatically makes a person healthy or unhealthy.  A person can stop eating meat, claim to be a vegetarian, yet live off pasta and junk food, for instance.  Both meat eaters and non-meat eaters can have nutrient depletion.    

As far as "they all cheat", what is the basis of this assertion?  I suppose people make the decision to stop eating meat for a variety of reasons, and depending on those reasons it could be more or less "difficult" or "tempting" to eat meat again but do you have any basis for this claim?  

It's in the middle of one or two books I have read about nutrition. There is a problem testing vegitarians because of this. I will see if I can lay my hands on a quote or two for you.

In the meantime:

Bill Clinton cheats — on his vegan diet
The former President told AARP The Magazine that he stopped eating meat, cheese, milk and fish at the encouragement of daughter Chelsea, but within the article, Clinton acknowledges indulging in salmon and omelets each week.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/bill-clinton-cheats-vegan-diet-article-1.1446582#ixzz37eyWfeGV
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 03:07:45 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline jah777

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #223 on: July 16, 2014, 03:26:30 PM »
So..back to the topic..God probably doesn't want us to be sick, demented and infertile.

Are you suggesting that the diet of Adam and Eve in Paradise, or that of monastics today, is against the will of God? 

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Should Christians be Vegetarians?
« Reply #224 on: July 16, 2014, 03:55:23 PM »
So..back to the topic..God probably doesn't want us to be sick, demented and infertile.

Are you suggesting that the diet of Adam and Eve in Paradise, or that of monastics today, is against the will of God?  

As I understand it Monastics eat fish and dairy too...

So if you are on Athos, you would have a diet very high in Omega 3 fats ( very healthy fat) because the fish is being caught right outside your window and eaten the same day.

Often milk in these remote places is taken unpasteurized so it is very healthy and so is the butter and cheese. They are sufficiently high in fat even if pasteurized.

They dont eat a low fat plant only diet. Far from it.. Getting enough animal based fats is the key.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 03:59:20 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm