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Author Topic: Should Christians be Vegetarians?  (Read 12268 times) Average Rating: 0
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« on: June 24, 2009, 06:36:31 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 06:45:32 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 07:26:40 PM »

I think if you grew up on, or  lived on a farm, you might think differently about eating meat! Wink
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 08:18:12 PM »

Maybe for half the year  Wink













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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 08:48:33 PM »

I believe that Christians (or anyone for that matter) should be vegetarians if that is what they decide is best for them. I also don't think that we who aren't vegetarians should ever take lightly the fact that the lives of our fellow creatures are sacrificed to keep us alive and healthy. Just my thoughts on the matter.
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 09:43:47 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam

We should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. Since the advent of the idea that Low Fat is healthy and the virtual abandonment of saturated fat from the American Diet, obesity has soared, Diabetes is rampent and the general health of Americans has markedly declined.

I would recommend reading up on the work of Weston Price at www.westonaprice.org. The Traditional diet of Humans is Milk and Meat. When Price studied isolated people who were not yet exposed to the refined foods of the 20th Century they were far healthier. Also, the replacement of Wholesome Raw Milk with denatured Pasteurized Milk has been a major loss for our health.. Read www.realmilk.com

Low carb,  fat and protien from the meat of pasture fed animals ( and fish) plus raw milk is the natural diet for people. Vegetables and fruit and grains are secondary and are best eaten raw and better fermented.   
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 09:45:55 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 10:22:25 PM »

We should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. Since the advent of the idea that Low Fat is healthy and the virtual abandonment of saturated fat from the American Diet, obesity has soared, Diabetes is rampent and the general health of Americans has markedly declined.
But I would hardly call this shift in dietary patterns the sole factor in the increased rates of obesity and diabetes and the general decline of our health.  What of the shift from physical labor to the more sedentary labor required by the much grown service industry?

I would recommend reading up on the work of Weston Price at www.westonaprice.org. The Traditional diet of Humans is Milk and Meat. When Price studied isolated people who were not yet exposed to the refined foods of the 20th Century they were far healthier. Also, the replacement of Wholesome Raw Milk with denatured Pasteurized Milk has been a major loss for our health.. Read www.realmilk.com

Low carb,  fat and protien from the meat of pasture fed animals ( and fish) plus raw milk is the natural diet for people. Vegetables and fruit and grains are secondary and are best eaten raw and better fermented.
Then why do we have molars designed for grinding, much less acidic digestive systems than the carnivores, and longer intestines more capable of digesting plant material if vegetables, fruits, and grains are more of a secondary food for us?

That said, I certainly agree that pasture fed animals are much better for eating than much of the artificially engineered meat that's sold in most supermarkets.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 10:25:09 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 10:32:41 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam

We should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. Since the advent of the idea that Low Fat is healthy and the virtual abandonment of saturated fat from the American Diet, obesity has soared, Diabetes is rampent and the general health of Americans has markedly declined.

I would recommend reading up on the work of Weston Price at www.westonaprice.org. The Traditional diet of Humans is Milk and Meat. When Price studied isolated people who were not yet exposed to the refined foods of the 20th Century they were far healthier. Also, the replacement of Wholesome Raw Milk with denatured Pasteurized Milk has been a major loss for our health.. Read www.realmilk.com

Low carb,  fat and protien from the meat of pasture fed animals ( and fish) plus raw milk is the natural diet for people. Vegetables and fruit and grains are secondary and are best eaten raw and better fermented.   

Thanks for those very interesting and educational points. Of course for me personally most saturated fat is poison. I have a hereditary problem with extremely high cholesterol that has resulted in me having had two heart attacks by the age of 34. I have always been an athlete and never have had a weight problem, but my arteries continue to clog up because my liver manufactures too much of the bad cholesterol (LDL is the bad I think). I used to love cheese and steak, but no more.

I would argue with your initial statement that we should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. If this were true, then why didn't God command Adam and Eve to eat meat in the Garden? If meat eating is the ideal diet, then the ideal state of man in a sinless paradise would have included eating meat don't you think?

Also, there is plenty of good saturated fat to be found from vegetative sources like macadamia nuts, almonds, avacado, and coconut.

Selam
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 10:38:28 PM »

Actually we need to take into account what ethnicity we are in regards to how we eat. If you are a certain ethnicity you should find out what your ancestors traditionally ate and try to eat similarly. I don't mean that "cave man diet" that is popular where you eat tons of meat. What I mean is that eating what your family ancestors would have traditionally ate is healthiest.  Scandinavians tend to need to eat more of certain types of fish whereas American Indians tend to need to avoid dairy nearly as a whole. There is no one healthy diet for every ethnic group. Asian cultures can do really well on alot of rice. But other ethnic groups tend to do poorly on a high rice diet. Let's say your family is from Greece- you would do well on a more Mediterranean diet. All this to say- "good foods" for a person depends upon what their ethnic background is. Where your family came from determines what they could eat for generations. And what you family did well eating for generations is what you will do well eating. So native foods to where your family is from are the best foods to eat. Certain cultures had to depend a great deal on meat- think Alaska, because they had to eat what was available to them. Certain other cultures depended almost exclusively on foraging plant foods with the occasional supplement of meat.
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 11:02:54 PM »

Oh, and for the record- nacho's, chili dogs, cheese steaks, cheetos, pizza (as we eat it today) and fried bacon wrapped cheese weren't ever native to anyone Wink

By native I mean foods that a commoner could regularly eat and have access to.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 11:08:27 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 11:10:03 PM »

But I would hardly call this shift in dietary patterns the sole factor in the increased rates of obesity and diabetes and the general decline of our health.  What of the shift from physical labor to the more sedentary labor required by the much grown service industry?

Then why do we have molars designed for grinding, much less acidic digestive systems than the carnivores, and longer intestines more capable of digesting plant material if vegetables, fruits, and grains are more of a secondary food for us?

We can speculate all we want about that but when we look at isolated populations eating traditional diets, they are far healthier. No cancer, straight teeth, robust.
 When people are introduced to the Western style diet they degenerate physically in just one generation. You can read Weston Price's book:"Nutrition and Physical Degeneration"  The Traditional Diet of people for thousands of years has been  high in saturated fats from meat, eggs and Milk  etc. , fermented foods and nothing refined Also such things as coconuts and coconut oil, which is very high in saturated fat.


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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 11:13:24 PM »

And food allergies can often be traced to your ethnic background. Most american indians can't do dairy. We didn't keep cows like the europeans. Although we did utilize bison, it was primarily for meat, not for dairy. (ever try to milk a buffalo? laugh ) Although bison and cows are similar they are not the same thing and that difference in my experience is a BIG one as far as my tolerance of eating the animal goes. We also didn't eat eggs really, it was not something we regularly had access to. The traditional diet in my history would have been camas, berries, salmon, venison, fiddleheads (fern) dandelion leaves, grapes, clover, mussels and the like.
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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2009, 11:22:15 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam

We should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. Since the advent of the idea that Low Fat is healthy and the virtual abandonment of saturated fat from the American Diet, obesity has soared, Diabetes is rampent and the general health of Americans has markedly declined.

I would recommend reading up on the work of Weston Price at www.westonaprice.org. The Traditional diet of Humans is Milk and Meat. When Price studied isolated people who were not yet exposed to the refined foods of the 20th Century they were far healthier. Also, the replacement of Wholesome Raw Milk with denatured Pasteurized Milk has been a major loss for our health.. Read www.realmilk.com

Low carb,  fat and protien from the meat of pasture fed animals ( and fish) plus raw milk is the natural diet for people. Vegetables and fruit and grains are secondary and are best eaten raw and better fermented.   

Thanks for those very interesting and educational points. Of course for me personally most saturated fat is poison. I have a hereditary problem with extremely high cholesterol that has resulted in me having had two heart attacks by the age of 34. I have always been an athlete and never have had a weight problem, but my arteries continue to clog up because my liver manufactures too much of the bad cholesterol (LDL is the bad I think). I used to love cheese and steak, but no more.

I would argue with your initial statement that we should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. If this were true, then why didn't God command Adam and Eve to eat meat in the Garden? If meat eating is the ideal diet, then the ideal state of man in a sinless paradise would have included eating meat don't you think?

Also, there is plenty of good saturated fat to be found from vegetative sources like macadamia nuts, almonds, avacado, and coconut.

Selam

Look.. I'm not a Doctor, I only play one on the Internet Smiley but you should look into the issue of Cholesterol as the culprit for heart disease. It probably isn't . Pick up a copy of "Traditional Foods are your best Medicine" by Ron Schmid and also "Eat Fat to Lose Fat" by Sally Fallon.

The fact is, the people who live the longest in our society today are women with very high cholesterol. The death rate goes up only very slightly in men with Cholesterol in excess of 300. We have been sold a bill of goods by  Agra Business and Big Pharma. IMHO
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2009, 11:26:19 PM »

Most american indians can't do dairy

Like many people, they cant tolerate Pasteurized Dairy. They can digest natural Raw Milk. All of the enzymes that help digestion are destroyed when you heat the milk to Pasteurize it.

Read: "The Untold Story of Milk" by Dr. Ron Schmid
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2009, 11:34:44 PM »

^Sorry your logic is completely off. NO we natives DON'T digest dairy period. Raw or pasturized, it doesn't matter. In fact it has been proven that as much as 76% of natives tested are positive for lactose intolerance. Do you have any experience in the cultural anthropological study of foods? Europeans do quite well with dairy on the whole. But it has actually also been proven that asian and african peoples do poorly on european cattle based dairy as well as us natives to america. (which is what it typically means when you say "dairy"=cow) There is a native breed of cattle in certain areas of Africa that is well tolerated on the whole. And goat based dairy can be well tolerated in certain ethnic groups where goats are a part of the society. But cow based dairy- raw or not- is not something every ethnic group can eat. And chicken eggs on the whole are not something every ethnic group can eat as well.

In fact the sickest I and my brothers have ever been from dairy is when our white mother and white step father tried to switch us to all raw dairy. Raw it is even worse. Our parents did well, we became extremely sick. I can't imagine why anyone would want to eat/consume raw dairy. It tastes like cow. I hate milk and milk products on the whole. I only eat dairy while I am pregnant. Otherwise I can't stomach it. And when I am breastfeeding I can't have even minute traces of dairy or my babies have a horrible colic reaction. Between my husband and I our kids are about half american indian. The only dairy my kids really get on a regular basis is goat, bison and whatever I make before they are weaned laugh

This is a website that compiles a great deal of books on the anthropological study of diet.

http://lilt.ilstu.edu/rtdirks/
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2009, 11:36:40 PM »

How do you explain the high level of physical fitness of groups which have no exposure to meat, and very little to milk?  How 'bout poor Greek villagers, who would even be lucky to get fish?  How about 1,800 years of Christian vegetarian monasticism?

The monastic answer to "Should Christians be vegetarians?" is "Yes."  The rest of the Church is not required to do so.
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 11:48:50 PM »

I always thought that vegetarianism is usually healthier, though there are several types of vegetarians; lacto-ovo vegetarians for example.  At any rate, if only broccoli tasted like bacon cheeseburgers and spinach like peach cobbler, I'd be one healthy feller.  Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 12:07:00 AM »

Soy is another food that is really well tolerated by certain ethnic groups and not at all by others.
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 12:31:12 AM »

From what I recall they had to lessen the fasting guidelines for orthodox in Alaska early on because of the scarcity of food to eat. Essentially food other than meat is pretty rare up there because of the land they can't grow much food and shipping it in is pretty costly. I wish I could recall the book reference. Does anyone know it? Now maintaining fasting guidelines can be done pretty easily in most of Alaska. But the Probilof alaskans in particular really had to rely upon meat as they lived in a tundra type enviroment as well as the fact that they were on islands and couldn't trade with more interior alaskans for food and resources.
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 12:33:02 AM »

I am enjoying these responses. Thank you. But how about some more input on the moral and social implications of vegetarianism vs meat eating. And what about the Biblical argument that since Christ was the final sacrifice then animals no longer need to die? Etc...

Selam
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 12:37:10 AM »

When you consume meat you aren't sacrificing the animal so that line of thought doesn't apply.

Have you ever read Pollution and the Death of Man by Francis Schaeffer? (Frank's dad). I really enjoyed that book.

We should respect animals as co-creation. But animals are without souls, they have no nous. So to anthropomorphize them is just silly and wrong
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 12:52:00 AM »

When you consume meat you aren't sacrificing the animal so that line of thought doesn't apply.

Have you ever read Pollution and the Death of Man by Francis Schaeffer? (Frank's dad). I really enjoyed that book.

We should respect animals as co-creation. But animals are without souls, they have no nous. So to anthropomorphize them is just silly and wrong

I made it clear in my original post that I do not place animals on the same level as human beings. Meat eating was not God's original plan for man. He allowed Noah and his family to eat meat because the flood had temporarily destroyed all vegetation. Under the Law animal sacrifices were required to atone for sin. The earth is full of vegetation now. Christ has completed all the sacrifice necessary for our salvation. Thus, why do we need to eat meat?

Selam
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 12:54:58 AM »

I am enjoying these responses. Thank you. But how about some more input on the moral and social implications of vegetarianism vs meat eating. And what about the Biblical argument that since Christ was the final sacrifice then animals no longer need to die? Etc...

Selam

What of Apostle Peter's vision in Acts 11?

“I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6 When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven.
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 12:55:21 AM »

The first animal sacrifice was in the garden of Eden not after the landing of the ark- Genesis chapter 3 and the garments of skin that God gave Adam and Eve.
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 12:58:57 AM »

The first animal sacrifice was in the garden of Eden not after the landing of the ark- Genesis chapter 3 and the garments of skin that God gave Adam and Eve.

That was after the Fall, and it wasn't a theological sacrifice of atonement.

Selam
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2009, 01:04:07 AM »

I am enjoying these responses. Thank you. But how about some more input on the moral and social implications of vegetarianism vs meat eating. And what about the Biblical argument that since Christ was the final sacrifice then animals no longer need to die? Etc...

Selam

What of Apostle Peter's vision in Acts 11?

“I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6 When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven.

Good question. The context makes it clear that this is an analogy referring to the acceptance of Gentiles into the New Covenant. The Gentiles were formerly considered "unclean," but now they are to be viewed as inheritors of the grace of God as well as the Jews.

As far as the notion that all things are clean... Would you eat a cockroach? Would you eat meat with maggots coming out of it? Sorry to be so gross, but it makes my point. It is silly to think that all animals and creatures are literally clean and fit to eat.

Selam
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2009, 01:07:40 AM »

^Actually insects are the traditional diet in many countries. They are quite nutritious. I wouldn't eat meat with maggots in it because that means that the meat is spoiled. But the maggots are actually OK to eat if you clean them.
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2009, 01:25:58 AM »

^Actually insects are the traditional diet in many countries. They are quite nutritious. I wouldn't eat meat with maggots in it because that means that the meat is spoiled. But the maggots are actually OK to eat if you clean them.

You are correct. The point is the same though; we obviously don't view all things as being literally clean.

Selam
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2009, 01:32:54 AM »

What of the ancient custom in many, many Christian cultures, of eating meat, especially lamb, at Easter, as a symbol of the Lamb of God who was our sacrifice?
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2009, 01:37:52 AM »

^Actually insects are the traditional diet in many countries. They are quite nutritious. I wouldn't eat meat with maggots in it because that means that the meat is spoiled. But the maggots are actually OK to eat if you clean them.

You are correct. The point is the same though; we obviously don't view all things as being literally clean.

Selam

No your point is shattered. All things are clean, but not all things are acceptable to every persons palate and sensibilities.
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2009, 01:54:06 AM »

^Actually insects are the traditional diet in many countries. They are quite nutritious. I wouldn't eat meat with maggots in it because that means that the meat is spoiled. But the maggots are actually OK to eat if you clean them.

You are correct. The point is the same though; we obviously don't view all things as being literally clean.

Selam

No your point is shattered. All things are clean, but not all things are acceptable to every persons palate and sensibilities.

Nice try, but it ain't workin'. Show me a person who is immune to triginosis and salmonella (spelling?) and I may reconsider that one aspect of my entire argument.

Selam

(I'm sure you will have to have the final word Quinalt, so go ahead. I've got to go to sleep now. God bless you my friend. And as always, PEACE.)
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2009, 02:10:53 AM »

Salmonella isn't a food Cheesy And it is actually more common to find that in particular on vegetables like alfalfa sprouts.

Scripture doesn't say we don't have to follow hygienic rules.
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2009, 02:11:57 AM »

Woo Hoo!  It's another...........

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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2009, 02:22:21 AM »

I believe that Christians (or anyone for that matter) should be vegetarians if that is what they decide is best for them. I also don't think that we who aren't vegetarians should ever take lightly the fact that the lives of our fellow creatures are sacrificed to keep us alive and healthy. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Riddikulus this is a beautiful sentiment. Actually in germany the profession of a hunter was actually a very spiritual role, they didn't let anyone just become a hunter you had to train under a experienced guide that taught you a love for nature and prayerful life to God thanking him for allowing him to sustain us and thanking him for allowing the animal to be with us. Besides being a tasty alcoholic beverage this is what Jagermeister was, Master Hunter was the name of a trained hunter.
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2009, 02:24:31 AM »

Hunters in native cultures were highly revered as well. My kids know where all meat comes from and we have always made a point of teaching them to be thankful for the animal that died so that we could eat. So when we are at the family farm part of the zoo we tick off alot of parents and get alot of funny looks; "Mommy, is that food? Do people eat that?"

And I won't even tell you what happened when we ended up being there when they were throwing the meal into the wolf display. Frozen bunnies! laugh My kids were not traumatized, but I can't say the same for the other kids that were there!

The goal our family has is to have my husband bag a deer or two a year, and fish with the kids to sustain us for the most part each year in addition to some chicken and other staples. I would vastly prefer that we catch and kill our own food, so would my husband. But he has been so busy being a soldier we just haven't had the ability.
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« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2009, 02:27:30 AM »

Quote
But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself.

Gebre- you do make a point about feeling less aggressive though. There are a host of hormones in meat and in dairy. And when you are away from those hormones you actually do feel a big difference. We mess with meat too much in America.


I should add- I was a hardcore VEGAN for years. No meat, leather or anything that came from an animal in anyway shape or form. It is hard to maintain and ultimately it was too unhealthy for me to keep up. I couldn't now with breastfeeding and having all these babies. I have to have meat proteins or my liver starts to fail.

While breastfeeding I can't have;
Cow's milk (and other milk products, including butter, whey and various milk proteins)
Onion
Chocolate
Garlic
Eggs
Peanuts
Walnuts
Citrus fruits
Corn
Soy
Tomatoes
Beet greens
Bok choy
Spinach (very allergic)
Alfalfa (very allergic)
Beets (very allergic)
Carrots (very allergic)
Broccoli
Brussels sprouts
Cabbage
Cauliflower
Chinese cabbage
Collard greens
Garden cress
Horseradish
Kale
Kohlrabi
Mustard greens
Radishes
Rutabaga
Swiss chard
Turnips


So without meat I am pretty limited to what I can actually eat since you aren't supposed to eat more than 1-2 servings of fish a week in my area.
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« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2009, 02:38:19 AM »

Woo Hoo!  It's another...........



I don't like to think of it that way. I'm simply trying to learn. I learn best by putting forth my ideas and hoping that they will be challenged and tested. We should all be trying to grow and learn from one another. Unfortunately not everyone on this board is in it for the same goal of mutual edification. Sadly, some people are only concerned about winning or losing an argument. I'm sure that I can be guilty of this at times myself. I think that what's most important in these discussions and debates is the tone. Condescension, sarcasm, and disparaging remarks are never productive. I think we can profoundly disagree with one another without insulting each other. I'm sure that I have lapsed in this regard from time to time. It can be difficult to remain on the high road when your sincere desire for truth and knowledge is met with ridicule and derision. So let's all try to do better. After all, we supposedly serve the same Lord.

Selam
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« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2009, 02:45:06 AM »

I believe that Christians (or anyone for that matter) should be vegetarians if that is what they decide is best for them. I also don't think that we who aren't vegetarians should ever take lightly the fact that the lives of our fellow creatures are sacrificed to keep us alive and healthy. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Riddikulus this is a beautiful sentiment. Actually in germany the profession of a hunter was actually a very spiritual role, they didn't let anyone just become a hunter you had to train under a experienced guide that taught you a love for nature and prayerful life to God thanking him for allowing him to sustain us and thanking him for allowing the animal to be with us. Besides being a tasty alcoholic beverage this is what Jagermeister was, Master Hunter was the name of a trained hunter.

I always remember the opening scene from the film, "The Last of the Mohicans". The primary characters are in the midst of a hunt and they eventually kill a deer for food. The animal is killed with a clean shot and dies without needless suffering. As the deer dies, the primary characters pay their respects to the animal for its life, forteited so that they may live. I don't know how true to history that scene was, but to me it amplifies the point that one can love and respect animals and nature, whilst, at the same time be forced to eat them for survival. I believe that because we don't need to hunt for our food the same way, we can tend to get de-sensitized to the display shelves in supermarket refrigerators. I just don't feel that we should lose sight of the fact that meat isn't produced in a factory; its presense on our table involves a forfeited life.


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« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2009, 03:18:25 AM »

While I do not hunt (I'm not a very good shot, and there's not much worth hunting in my neck of the woods anyway), I'm a very keen fisherman, and eat whatever I catch (as long as it's not undersize or noxious or otherwise inedible). Whatever must be returned to the water is done so with every effort to not injure or damage the fish. And I do eat meat, lenten periods excepted, of course.  angel

With all the palaver about "meat is bad, fish is good" (we already know that eating fish is OK from the Orthodox perspective because some of the apostles were fishermen, and Christ Himself ate fish, and used fish in several miracles), I'm yet to be convinced (outside of lenten considerations) that there is any moral or ethical difference between eating fish, and eating meat. Like with so many scripture passages, there is more than one meaning, which the Fathers themselves nutted out many centuries ago. The passage I quoted from Acts indeed refers to the acceptance of the Gentiles as children of God, but it also has a more literal meaning: The old Levitical restrictions have now been done away with, and all may eat of whatever plant or critter without fear or shame.

One can choose to be vegetarian - that's a personal decision. But to try to argue that eating meat or animal products goes contrary to the Orthodox faith is, I'm afraid, wide of the mark. The notion may be honorable in intent, but it is as doctrinally futile as the efforts of the Temperance movements of the 19th and 20th centuries, which argued for an absolute prohibition of the consumption of alcohol based on a rather selective interpretation of scripture.
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« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2009, 03:59:57 AM »

I think if you grew up on, or  lived on a farm, you might think differently about eating meat! Wink
Employees of Jack in the Box say something similar  Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2009, 06:11:18 AM »


As far as the notion that all things are clean... Would you eat a cockroach? Would you eat meat with maggots coming out of it? Sorry to be so gross, but it makes my point. It is silly to think that all animals and creatures are literally clean and fit to eat.

Selam

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« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2009, 06:21:26 AM »

Some of you out there have waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands!
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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2009, 08:57:47 AM »

From what I know, monks in Mount Athos eat fish only once a week and that's it, no meat. It's a tribute/tradition related to Man's diet before the Fall.

I can't eat any meat either. Not after watching Earthlings. That documentary was a real slap.
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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2009, 09:37:45 AM »

One can choose to be vegetarian - that's a personal decision. But to try to argue that eating meat or animal products goes contrary to the Orthodox faith is, I'm afraid, wide of the mark. The notion may be honorable in intent, but it is as doctrinally futile as the efforts of the Temperance movements of the 19th and 20th centuries, which argued for an absolute prohibition of the consumption of alcohol based on a rather selective interpretation of scripture.

I don't know if I would argue that eating meat is against the faith (why would we have a Meatfare Sunday?), but I would argue from the monastic witness that it's a practice that should be avoided if it can be done.

From what I know, monks in Mount Athos eat fish only once a week and that's it, no meat. It's a tribute/tradition related to Man's diet before the Fall.

I think this is the crux of my point: it's not against Orthodox tradition to eat animal products, but, like continuous prayer, self-sacrifice/martyrdom, poverty, etc. it is a "higher way" for those who are able to endure it.
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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2009, 09:59:14 AM »

Surprised no one has mentioned this, so figured I might as well:

The Early Church did not allow Christians to be vegetarians for any reason other than asceticism. Those who refused to eat meat as a general matter of principal -- since, by so doing, they denied the goodness of God's creation -- were actually anathematized.

Of course, a lot of that had to do with philosophical/theological trends in the Hellenistic world (e.g. Eustathianism, Manicheanism, etc.). Nonetheless, here are two relevant canons:

From the Holy Apostles (51)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone at all on the sacerdotal list, abstains from marriage, or meat, or wine, not as a matter of mortification, but out of an abhorrence thereof, forgetting that all things are exceedingly good, and that God made man male and female, and blasphemously misrepresenting God’s work of creation, either let him mend his ways or let him be deposed from office and expelled from the Church. Let a layman be treated similarly.

From the Holy Apostles (53)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.

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« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2009, 11:34:49 AM »

When you consume meat you aren't sacrificing the animal so that line of thought doesn't apply.

Have you ever read Pollution and the Death of Man by Francis Schaeffer? (Frank's dad). I really enjoyed that book.

We should respect animals as co-creation. But animals are without souls, they have no nous. So to anthropomorphize them is just silly and wrong

It is my understanding that While animals do have a "nous" or spirit they do posses a soul. Bishop Kallistos Ware write about this on page 48 of his book The Orthodox Way. Also see the teaching of St. Theophan the Recluse letter 9 of The Spiritual Life and How to be Attuned to It.

Quote
Just what is the spirit? It is that force which God breathed into man when He created him. The earth bore all species of earthly creatures by God's command. From the earth also came every kind of living creatures soul. The human soul, although it resembles the animal soul in its lowest part, in incomparably superior to it in its highest part. That it is this way in man is because of it's bonding with the soul. The spirit, breathed by God, combined with it and raised it far above every nonhuman soul. That is why we note within ourselves, in addition to what we see in the animals, that which is peculiar to the spiritualized soul of man, and even higher, that which is peculiar only to the spirit.
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« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2009, 11:58:40 AM »

^Sorry your logic is completely off. NO we natives DON'T digest dairy period. Raw or pasteurized, it doesn't matter. In fact it has been proven that as much as 76% of natives tested are positive for lactose intolerance. Do you have any experience in the cultural anthropological study of foods? Europeans do quite well with dairy on the whole. But it has actually also been proven that asian and african peoples do poorly on european cattle based dairy as well as us natives to america. (which is what it typically means when you say "dairy"=cow) There is a native breed of cattle in certain areas of Africa that is well tolerated on the whole. And goat based dairy can be well tolerated in certain ethnic groups where goats are a part of the society. But cow based dairy- raw or not- is not something every ethnic group can eat. And chicken eggs on the whole are not something every ethnic group can eat as well.

Most people when they switch from pasteurized milk to raw milk can tolerate it no matter their ethnicity. It turns out that it is not the lactose that they are having a problem with ( so testing posative  for lactose intolerence is moot)  but rather the lack of digestive enzymes which are destroyed in the process of heating the Milk.

There are several tribes in Africa, such as the Masai who live almost exclusively off their cattle. But you are correct about goats milk. Milk from many different animals are part of the diet of Traditional Peoples. Goats milk taken without pasteurization may be even closer to Human Milk. The point is not a contest between Cow's Milk and other kinds of Milk, it is a struggle against REFINED foods, REfined ( pasturized) Milk in particular. I didnt mean to appear to be only promoting Milk from Cows.

The cultures that don't drink any kind of milk such as Eskimo's get similar benefits from eating much of their food either raw or fermented ( fermentation actually increases enzyme levels and can be looked at as "super raw" food). Other people sometimes use bones to make broth. But diary from goats and cows and sometimes other animals like the Yak is most often a central element in traditional diets . People  who eat this way turn out to be far healthier than we are. No cancer or diabetes or tooth decay..etc.

So while there is undoubtedly certain hereditary elements to how people digest and what is agreeable to them, the far bigger issue is conforming to a Traditional Diet free from processed foods, refinement, canning and pasteurization of Milk. Saturated fat from pastured animals ( eating their natural diet and not the swill fed to them in factory farming) is also a key component to optimum health, not it's enemy. Rather, vegitalbe oils and "low fat" diets  and  processed carbs and sugar are  probably the real culprit to heart disease and obesity and diabetes and many types of cancer
 ( not even to mention dental problems).

  
In fact the sickest I and my brothers have ever been from dairy is when our white mother and white step father tried to switch us to all raw dairy. Raw it is even worse. Our parents did well, we became extremely sick. I can't imagine why anyone would want to eat/consume raw dairy. It tastes like cow. I hate milk and milk products on the whole. I only eat dairy while I am pregnant. Otherwise I can't stomach it. And when I am breastfeeding I can't have even minute traces of dairy or my babies have a horrible colic reaction. Between my husband and I our kids are about half American Indian. The only dairy my kids really get on a regular basis is goat, bison and whatever I make before they are weaned laugh


Hmm.. Who knows, but raw dairy doesn't taste "Like cow" It is sweet and creamy and more like drinking ice cream or sweet butter. But as I said, raw goat's milk is fine and maybe even better. Sometimes having been made sick by a certain food can put you off of it forever... I can relate..Been there.

The reason people  take Raw Milk and Raw Cheese and  Butter is that it restores vitality and nourishes the body in fantastic ways. The Mayo clinic used to give people raw milk as a cure. They would take you in for about four weeks and feed you a diet exclusively of Raw Milk. It cured or greatly improved all kinds of chronic conditions, not the least of which is diabetes.


This is a website that compiles a great deal of books on the anthropological study of diet.

http://lilt.ilstu.edu/rtdirks/


Cool..Thanks.
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« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2009, 12:24:27 PM »

Indulge me for one more point concerning Raw Milk that tastes bad and can't be digested.

The healthier the cow the healthier the milk and meat. The standard is to drink milk from cows that are naturally pastured, eating grass in the spring and summer and hay in the winter. Cow's should be free of all hormones used by the dairy industry to boost milk production.

Milk should also come from Jersey Cows ( and one other type which I forgot the name of) and not the Holsteins used by Big Dairy. Holsteins are used because of their ability to give more milk, but the quality of their milk is inferior.

So if you take Raw Milk from a Jersey Cow that is fed grass and hay and not the dirty swill fed to most dairy cows you will  taste something very nice. Most people who use Raw Milk follow these guidelines. Taking milk raw from a swill fed cow kept in confinement all of it's life, may indeed taste nasty.   
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« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2009, 12:42:13 PM »


It is my understanding that While animals do have a "nous" or spirit they do posses a soul. Bishop Kallistos Ware write about this on page 48 of his book The Orthodox Way. Also see the teaching of St. Theophan the Recluse letter 9 of The Spiritual Life and How to be Attuned to It.


I am sorry I meant to say... It is my understanding that While animals don't have a "nous" or spirit
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« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2009, 01:17:51 PM »


From the Holy Apostles (53)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.



I actually loathe wine. Would that be a problem?
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« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2009, 01:37:36 PM »


From the Holy Apostles (53)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.



I actually loathe wine. Would that be a problem?

But have you tried a good wine? Here in the US, it is almost nonexistent, save for sky-high prices...
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« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2009, 01:40:12 PM »

I had all the right stuff in the raw milk my parents gave me. This movement is a very old one and my parents tried it already. And raw milk tastes AWFUL. In fact milk of any kind really tastes awful. That layer of cream on the top....ew!
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« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2009, 01:40:43 PM »


From the Holy Apostles (53)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.



I actually loathe wine. Would that be a problem?

But have you tried a good wine? Here in the US, it is almost nonexistent, save for sky-high prices...

A nice bottle of Opus.... but alas it's 200 plus dollars lol..
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« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2009, 01:41:16 PM »


From the Holy Apostles (53)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.
 

I actually loathe wine. Would that be a problem?

But have you tried a good wine? Here in the US, it is almost nonexistent, save for sky-high prices...  

There are some excellent wines in the sub-$20 range.  And a lot of barely palatable ones is the sub-$100 range.
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« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2009, 01:51:27 PM »

I had all the right stuff in the raw milk my parents gave me. This movement is a very old one and my parents tried it already. And raw milk tastes AWFUL. In fact milk of any kind really tastes awful. That layer of cream on the top....ew!

LoL  .. Fine Smiley

There is a woman in my office who wouldn't use the "Organic" Half and Half in her coffee that was in the refrigerator
( regular old pasteurized Half and Half, just minus the hormones and chemicals).. She said it tastes bad to her. I guess you get used to what you are familiar with, she needed the taste of hormone and swill in her half and half to be happy.

Real Milk for ages and ages was not homogenized. The cream rises to the top. If you or your parents are old enough ( over 70 or maybe even younger) they will remember that all milk came that way. It's usually a sign of being Farm Fresh. If fresh and chemical free makes you vomit.... I guess there is nothing you can do about it  Wink
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« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2009, 01:54:43 PM »


From the Holy Apostles (53)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.
 

I actually loathe wine. Would that be a problem?

But have you tried a good wine? Here in the US, it is almost nonexistent, save for sky-high prices...  

There are some excellent wines in the sub-$20 range.  And a lot of barely palatable ones is the sub-$100 range.

Well, depends on what's your standard of excellence. Smiley

But I agree, I exaggerasted a bit. Smiley
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« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2009, 01:57:32 PM »


From the Holy Apostles (53)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.
 

I actually loathe wine. Would that be a problem?

But have you tried a good wine? Here in the US, it is almost nonexistent, save for sky-high prices...  

There are some excellent wines in the sub-$20 range.  And a lot of barely palatable ones is the sub-$100 range.
As long as it isn't red wine, there are good wines out there that don't cost a lot... I agree.
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« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2009, 01:58:36 PM »

Julio Gallo?
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« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2009, 01:58:48 PM »

Well, depends on what's your standard of excellence. Smiley

Well, I don't claim to be a connoisseur, so consider my taste biased!
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« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2009, 02:00:03 PM »

All cow milk- raw or not makes me want to vomit. I can't imagine why anyone would want to consume it. Goat milk is different, I can deal with that. If they use proper washing techniques then it is quite good. But cow milk tastes like cow. YUCK!
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« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2009, 02:14:30 PM »

There are some excellent wines in the sub-$20 range.  And a lot of barely palatable ones is the sub-$100 range.

I'm used to $4-$5 range and they're OK. How easy was the life of high-schooler Wink

There is a woman in my office who wouldn't use the "Organic" Half and Half in her coffee that was in the refrigerator
( regular old pasteurized Half and Half, just minus the hormones and chemicals).. She said it tastes bad to her. I guess you get used to what you are familiar with, she needed the taste of hormone and swill in her half and half to be happy.

God created coffee black and it shall not to be profaned with milk Cheesy

All cow milk- raw or not makes me want to vomit. I can't imagine why anyone would want to consume it. Goat milk is different, I can deal with that. If they use proper washing techniques then it is quite good. But cow milk tastes like cow. YUCK!

I also do not like the taste of raw cow milk but I really like buttermilk and yogurt. I've tasted goat milk only once and didn't like it also. On the other hand I  like goat cheese.
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« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2009, 02:29:26 PM »

I hear Kangeroo milk is pretty good...for Kangeroos. Shocked
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« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2009, 02:37:20 PM »

Julio Gallo?

Rough... My fav is Haute Medoc 1990. But of course I can't afford to drink it regularly. Sad

Of whites, - some Napa Valley Chardonnays are good.

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« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2009, 02:42:11 PM »


As far as the notion that all things are clean... Would you eat a cockroach? Would you eat meat with maggots coming out of it? Sorry to be so gross, but it makes my point. It is silly to think that all animals and creatures are literally clean and fit to eat.

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I'm not so sure of that.  The locusts that St. John ate may also have been plant material, since many plants (mainly trees) are also known as locusts.  However, I understand that grasshoppers and their close kin are good eating in their own right, not that I've ever put this to the test personally.
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« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2009, 02:43:04 PM »

I don't think it's wrong in principle to eat meat, but I do think it's wrong to mistreat the animals whose bodies provide that meat.  I think that Christians should insist that those animals be treated kindly and humanely.

I recently became a vegan primarily because of what I have read about "factory farming".  As it is currently practiced, unfortunately the animals do not seem to be treated very humanely, and the laws enacted requiring the animals' deaths to be as painless as possible may not always be followed.  

And if you don't care about the suffering of the animals, consider the suffering of the human beings who work in the slaughterhouses.  It's an extremely high stress job.  Imagine spending 8+ hours a day killing living creatures.  Even if the killings were as humane as possible, you have to know that takes a toll on people.

And FWIW I don't believe the hooey some Vegetarians put forth that Jesus was a vegetarian - obviously He at least ate fish.  However, I don't think "the Lamb of God" would approve of the way animals (including lambs!) are treated in the "factory farm" system.
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« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2009, 02:45:48 PM »

Julio Gallo?

Rough... My fav is Haute Medoc 1990. But of course I can't afford to drink it regularly. Sad

Of whites, - some Napa Valley Chardonnays are good.


Well... we were talking about inexpensive wine, afterall Roll Eyes

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« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2009, 02:48:15 PM »

Meat eating was not God's original plan for man. He allowed Noah and his family to eat meat because the flood had temporarily destroyed all vegetation.
That's an interesting (novel?) interpretation of Scripture.  How'd you come up with that?
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« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2009, 02:50:29 PM »

Watch Food, Inc., and be shocked! Shocked

Quote
In Food, Inc., filmmaker Robert Kenner lifts the veil on our nation's food industry, exposing the highly mechanized underbelly that has been hidden from the American consumer with the consent of our government's regulatory agencies, USDA and FDA. Our nation's food supply is now controlled by a handful of corporations that often put profit ahead of consumer health, the livelihood of the American farmer, the safety of workers and our own environment. We have bigger-breasted chickens, the perfect pork chop, herbicide-resistant soybean seeds, even tomatoes that won't go bad, but we also have new strains of E. coli—the harmful bacteria that causes illness for an estimated 73,000 Americans annually. We are riddled with widespread obesity, particularly among children, and an epidemic level of diabetes among adults.

Featuring interviews with such experts as Eric Schlosser (Fast Food Nation), Michael Pollan (The Omnivore's Dilemma, In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto) along with forward thinking social entrepreneurs like Stonyfield's Gary Hirshberg and Polyface Farms' Joel Salatin, Food, Inc. reveals surprising—and often shocking truths—about what we eat, how it's produced, who we have become as a nation and where we are going from here.
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« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2009, 02:56:10 PM »

Meat eating was not God's original plan for man. He allowed Noah and his family to eat meat because the flood had temporarily destroyed all vegetation.
That's an interesting (novel?) interpretation of Scripture.  How'd you come up with that?

Genesis 1:

Quote
29And God said, Behold, I have given you [humans, i.e.] every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
But, then, after the Flood:

Genesis 9:

Quote
1And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

 2And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

 3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

It seems that because Noah saved the animals, Noah and humanity could now be allowed to eat the animals. I admit to not having heard before, the idea that Noah and humanity were allowed to eat meat, because all the vegetation was wiped out. Surely, there must have been some sea-weed somewhere.
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« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2009, 03:03:53 PM »


As far as the notion that all things are clean... Would you eat a cockroach? Would you eat meat with maggots coming out of it? Sorry to be so gross, but it makes my point. It is silly to think that all animals and creatures are literally clean and fit to eat.

Selam

According to tradition St. John the Forerunner ate crickets with honey.
I'm not so sure of that.  The locusts that St. John ate may also have been plant material, since many plants (mainly trees) are also known as locusts.  However, I understand that grasshoppers and their close kin are good eating in their own right, not that I've ever put this to the test personally.

In all Polish translations the word what describes that insects is used.
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« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2009, 03:09:15 PM »

All cow milk- raw or not makes me want to vomit. I can't imagine why anyone would want to consume it. Goat milk is different, I can deal with that. If they use proper washing techniques then it is quite good. But cow milk tastes like cow. YUCK!

I once saw a Hindu guy on TV who liked to drink urine...

To each his own...

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« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2009, 03:13:50 PM »

I hear Kangeroo milk is pretty good...for Kangeroos. Shocked

Baby Cows die when the are fed Pasturized Milk...

In Lapp Land they milk their Reindeer.

Milk is the only substance specifically created as food.
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« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2009, 03:15:06 PM »

All cow milk- raw or not makes me want to vomit. I can't imagine why anyone would want to consume it. Goat milk is different, I can deal with that. If they use proper washing techniques then it is quite good. But cow milk tastes like cow. YUCK!

I once saw a Hindu guy on TV who liked to drink urine...

To each his own...

 Grin
Drinking one's own urine is an age-old element of Indian medicine (Ayurveda):
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Ayurveda and other ancient works on medicinal science have accorded their approval to the drinking of urine as a therapeutic measure. Ayurveda regards urine as an effective antidote against the harmful confluence of excesses of the three humours.




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« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2009, 03:47:39 PM »

Actually we need to take into account what ethnicity we are in regards to how we eat. If you are a certain ethnicity you should find out what your ancestors traditionally ate and try to eat similarly. I don't mean that "cave man diet" that is popular where you eat tons of meat. What I mean is that eating what your family ancestors would have traditionally ate is healthiest.  Scandinavians tend to need to eat more of certain types of fish whereas American Indians tend to need to avoid dairy nearly as a whole. There is no one healthy diet for every ethnic group. Asian cultures can do really well on alot of rice. But other ethnic groups tend to do poorly on a high rice diet. Let's say your family is from Greece- you would do well on a more Mediterranean diet. All this to say- "good foods" for a person depends upon what their ethnic background is. Where your family came from determines what they could eat for generations. And what you family did well eating for generations is what you will do well eating. So native foods to where your family is from are the best foods to eat. Certain cultures had to depend a great deal on meat- think Alaska, because they had to eat what was available to them. Certain other cultures depended almost exclusively on foraging plant foods with the occasional supplement of meat.

Quinault,

While I agree with your logic to a degree, I think it depends on the individual. You have stated that you and your children are 50% Native American. Therefore, it's quite obvious to see what the dominant genes/ethnicity are in your family, and why dairy is a problem for you.

The problem with your arguement is that the United States (in particular) is in many ways is a great gene pool experiment. You have ethnicities mixing, blending, and breeding in ways never seen before.

Take my lineage for example:

I am Ukrainian and Hungarian on my father's side, and (hold on to your hat) Irish, English, Welsh, Scotch, French, and German on my mother's. Now while it is true that I am completely of European descent, there are several races mixing in there. (Gaul, Gaelic, Anglo-Saxon, Caucasian, etc.)

In my extended family, the blending continues as I have members of my family that are Dominican, Korean, and Russian Jew.

So for an individual like myself, eating what my ancestors ate may be a little difficult to decipher. I suppose it would be a dish of cabbage with potatoes drenched in butter with some lamb, kielbasa, black pudding, a side of scones and a glass of wine. (I feel bloated and full just reading that! lol)

The bottom line in all of this is that an Orthodox Christian should consult with his/her primary care physician and his/her Spiritual Father before making any decisions about his/her diet.

God bless,

Maureen
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« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2009, 04:09:05 PM »

Baby Cows die when the are fed Pasturized Milk...
So what?  We're not cows.
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« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2009, 04:46:52 PM »

Being a chef, ex-vegan, and orthodox Christian, I feel I should comment...I eat meat & dairy now for two reasons, 1) being a vegan for five years, my body dropped weight and I developed blood sugar problems. My metabolism was too high and no matter how often I ate, I was protein defficient. When I eat protien my blood sugar normalizes and Sugars/Carbohydrates are converted more slowly. Hence, if I have a beer or a veggie sandwich on an otherwise empty stomach I get the shakes and get weak within 30 minutes. Protein from animal meats help me out tremedously. 2) Being a Christian, All food is blessed by God with a simple prayer. St. Paul touched on all this. 
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« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2009, 04:53:00 PM »

Although, I am a chef and I believe in the best sourced ingredients, possibly even knowing what farm from which your products are raised - its a good thing. I try to uphold these same standards in my restaurants. Animals as all God's creatures should be respected, but some are made for sustaining us. I know that sounds Anthropocentric, but so is Christianity. and yes, I've dispatched chickens and ducks, not deer yet but soon I'm sure since I bought a new rifle. And if I have the blessing of owning a farm one day - like I wish- then I will also have goats and sheep for slaughter and milk.
Hey if you got to eat meat, get to know it. Killing isn't pretty but ironically it gives you a respect for the process of life.
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« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2009, 05:18:30 PM »

Baby Cows die when the are fed Pasturized Milk...
So what?  We're not cows.

I think the lesson is that Pasturization so alters milk that even the Cows cant use it.
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« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2009, 05:18:58 PM »

While I do not hunt (I'm not a very good shot, and there's not much worth hunting in my neck of the woods anyway), I'm a very keen fisherman, and eat whatever I catch (as long as it's not undersize or noxious or otherwise inedible). Whatever must be returned to the water is done so with every effort to not injure or damage the fish. And I do eat meat, lenten periods excepted, of course.  angel

With all the palaver about "meat is bad, fish is good" (we already know that eating fish is OK from the Orthodox perspective because some of the apostles were fishermen, and Christ Himself ate fish, and used fish in several miracles), I'm yet to be convinced (outside of lenten considerations) that there is any moral or ethical difference between eating fish, and eating meat. Like with so many scripture passages, there is more than one meaning, which the Fathers themselves nutted out many centuries ago. The passage I quoted from Acts indeed refers to the acceptance of the Gentiles as children of God, but it also has a more literal meaning: The old Levitical restrictions have now been done away with, and all may eat of whatever plant or critter without fear or shame.

One can choose to be vegetarian - that's a personal decision. But to try to argue that eating meat or animal products goes contrary to the Orthodox faith is, I'm afraid, wide of the mark. The notion may be honorable in intent, but it is as doctrinally futile as the efforts of the Temperance movements of the 19th and 20th centuries, which argued for an absolute prohibition of the consumption of alcohol based on a rather selective interpretation of scripture.

You are correct that the passage from acts is both an analogy regarding the Gentiles as well as a literal statement that eating "unclean" meat will not condemn us spiritually. I often tell people that eating pork won't send you to hell, but you may get to heaven quicker than you had intended. Wink

I tried to make it clear in my original post that I am not arguing that Orthodox must be vegetarians or that eating meat is somehow "unorthodox." I also was clear that I would never advocate the legislation of a vegetarain lifestyle. It's simply a personal decision that I have made based upon my understanding of the Bible, the moral and social implications involved, and my own personal health and well being. And as I originally said, as Christians we should always calculate the consequences of our actions and choices, recognizing how they effect us personally and how they effect others.  

Selam
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« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2009, 05:31:48 PM »

Quote
But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself.

Gebre- you do make a point about feeling less aggressive though. There are a host of hormones in meat and in dairy. And when you are away from those hormones you actually do feel a big difference. We mess with meat too much in America.


I should add- I was a hardcore VEGAN for years. No meat, leather or anything that came from an animal in anyway shape or form. It is hard to maintain and ultimately it was too unhealthy for me to keep up. I couldn't now with breastfeeding and having all these babies. I have to have meat proteins or my liver starts to fail.

While breastfeeding I can't have;
Cow's milk (and other milk products, including butter, whey and various milk proteins)
Onion
Chocolate
Garlic
Eggs
Peanuts
Walnuts
Citrus fruits
Corn
Soy
Tomatoes
Beet greens
Bok choy
Spinach (very allergic)
Alfalfa (very allergic)
Beets (very allergic)
Carrots (very allergic)
Broccoli
Brussels sprouts
Cabbage
Cauliflower
Chinese cabbage
Collard greens
Garden cress
Horseradish
Kale
Kohlrabi
Mustard greens
Radishes
Rutabaga
Swiss chard
Turnips


So without meat I am pretty limited to what I can actually eat since you aren't supposed to eat more than 1-2 servings of fish a week in my area.

Wow. I can see how that must be tough. What's the reason for the limitations on fish? Does it have to do with how many fish are allowed to be caught by each person and such? I imagine you are not eating canned fish, huh?

Your situation reminds me to say that I clearly understand that some people in certain situations must eat meat. Sometimes it is a matter of survival. I am not one of these PETA freaks who say that killing an animal in order to survive is tantamount to murder. The moral issues I'm concerned about with meat eating center around the big beef and poultry industries that exploit animals and people for financial profit while providing a hormone ridden product to the mass of consumers.

Do whatever you need to take care of your little one! I will pray for a safe pregnancy and safe delivery.  Smiley

Selam
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« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2009, 05:33:53 PM »


As far as the notion that all things are clean... Would you eat a cockroach? Would you eat meat with maggots coming out of it? Sorry to be so gross, but it makes my point. It is silly to think that all animals and creatures are literally clean and fit to eat.

Selam

According to tradition St. John the Forerunner ate crickets with honey.

Locusts and wild honey.... Sounds like a vegetarian to me! Wink

BTW, that's in the Bible too (that he ate locusts and wild honey.)
Selam
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« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2009, 05:38:42 PM »

What of the ancient custom in many, many Christian cultures, of eating meat, especially lamb, at Easter, as a symbol of the Lamb of God who was our sacrifice?

This is our custom in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as well. In fact, I ate a little Lamb with my family at Church after Pascha this year. It's the only time I will eat meat other than fish. But that's just what I do, personally.

Selam
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« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2009, 05:39:32 PM »

People that talk about meat without knowing should watch Earthlings first.
I just opened a new thread about it.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22027.0.html

See you there.
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« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2009, 05:41:35 PM »

From what I know, monks in Mount Athos eat fish only once a week and that's it, no meat. It's a tribute/tradition related to Man's diet before the Fall.

I can't eat any meat either. Not after watching Earthlings. That documentary was a real slap.

Cool.

Tell us more about "Earthlings," and how it influenced your dietary decisons. I'm not familiar with the movie.

Selam
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« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2009, 05:52:53 PM »

Surprised no one has mentioned this, so figured I might as well:

The Early Church did not allow Christians to be vegetarians for any reason other than asceticism. Those who refused to eat meat as a general matter of principal -- since, by so doing, they denied the goodness of God's creation -- were actually anathematized.

Of course, a lot of that had to do with philosophical/theological trends in the Hellenistic world (e.g. Eustathianism, Manicheanism, etc.). Nonetheless, here are two relevant canons:

From the Holy Apostles (51)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone at all on the sacerdotal list, abstains from marriage, or meat, or wine, not as a matter of mortification, but out of an abhorrence thereof, forgetting that all things are exceedingly good, and that God made man male and female, and blasphemously misrepresenting God’s work of creation, either let him mend his ways or let him be deposed from office and expelled from the Church. Let a layman be treated similarly.

From the Holy Apostles (53)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.



That's great! Thanks so much for posting this.

Maybe that's why I partake of Lamb with my Christian brothers and sisters after Easter Liturgy. Without thinking about it too much, I just felt like to not partake of the Lamb with my brethren on such a joyous occasion would be self-rightoeus and arrogant. To eat it once a year will not effect my health negatively, and I doubt if the Lamb we are served is raised in inhumane conditions and such.

There's an old Rastafarian saying: "It's not what you do, but why you do it." Of course this cannot be applied to all things, but the general principle is applicable to what the Apostles were teaching here.

Selam
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« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2009, 06:00:56 PM »


From the Holy Apostles (53)

Quote
If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.
 

I actually loathe wine. Would that be a problem?

But have you tried a good wine? Here in the US, it is almost nonexistent, save for sky-high prices...  

There are some excellent wines in the sub-$20 range.  And a lot of barely palatable ones is the sub-$100 range.

On certain occasions we drink something called "Tej" in our Ethiopian Orthodox Church. It is a type of honey wine. It actually tastes like pure honey that has fermented. It's very sweet and very good.

The first time I had it was after our baptism when we were invited back to dine with our Priest. He offered us some, and we didn't know it was fermented! My children were drinking it fast because it was so sweet, but fortunatley they didn't seem to get a buzz from it. I on the other hand did, but only because I had been fasting prior to that.

Selam
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« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2009, 06:07:05 PM »


As far as the notion that all things are clean... Would you eat a cockroach? Would you eat meat with maggots coming out of it? Sorry to be so gross, but it makes my point. It is silly to think that all animals and creatures are literally clean and fit to eat.

Selam

According to tradition St. John the Forerunner ate crickets with honey.
I'm not so sure of that.  The locusts that St. John ate may also have been plant material, since many plants (mainly trees) are also known as locusts.  However, I understand that grasshoppers and their close kin are good eating in their own right, not that I've ever put this to the test personally.

It says in the Bible that John the Baptist ate Locusts. (St. Mark 1:6) Also Leviticus 11:22 states that the Locust was permissible for eating, thus not "unclean."

Selam
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« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2009, 06:11:23 PM »

I don't think it's wrong in principle to eat meat, but I do think it's wrong to mistreat the animals whose bodies provide that meat.  I think that Christians should insist that those animals be treated kindly and humanely.

I recently became a vegan primarily because of what I have read about "factory farming".  As it is currently practiced, unfortunately the animals do not seem to be treated very humanely, and the laws enacted requiring the animals' deaths to be as painless as possible may not always be followed.  

And if you don't care about the suffering of the animals, consider the suffering of the human beings who work in the slaughterhouses.  It's an extremely high stress job.  Imagine spending 8+ hours a day killing living creatures.  Even if the killings were as humane as possible, you have to know that takes a toll on people.

And FWIW I don't believe the hooey some Vegetarians put forth that Jesus was a vegetarian - obviously He at least ate fish.  However, I don't think "the Lamb of God" would approve of the way animals (including lambs!) are treated in the "factory farm" system.

I agree completely with all that you say.

Has anyone seen the movie "Fast Food Nation"? It sounds like a documentary but it's not. Be warned though, it contains some disturbing footage. But it is an excellent insight into the cruel realities of the Beef industry. It stars Greg Kinear, a good actor.

Selam
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« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2009, 06:15:33 PM »

Meat eating was not God's original plan for man. He allowed Noah and his family to eat meat because the flood had temporarily destroyed all vegetation.
That's an interesting (novel?) interpretation of Scripture.  How'd you come up with that?

I didn't know it was a novel interpretation. I didn't come up with it. Adam and Eve didn't eat meat bfore the Fall, because there was no death and meat eating would involve death. After the flood, before the waters dissipated and vegetation was restored, all that could be eaten were animals.

Selam
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« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2009, 06:19:51 PM »

My husband (who's not a Vegan) and I (who am (is? are? laugh) ), were amused that the Epistle at the Liturgy for the Nativity of St. John the Baptist yesterday was the one about "the man who eats meat should not judge the one who eats only vegetables [and vice versa]". 

Very appropriate and timely reminder!  Grin
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« Reply #89 on: June 25, 2009, 06:36:48 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible.

It is quite possible to live a very healthy lifestyle eating almost entirely animal products. The Inuit and the Masai come immediately to mind but there are other groups as well. And it quite possible to suffer heart attacks on a vegan or vegetarian diet. It happens all the time. Your post assumes meat was the cause of your heart attacks. How do you know?

Quote
But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle.


I think this is a stretch. Whatever value there may be in a particular style of eating, whether it is all meat or all vegetables or somewhere in between, I think the NT goes out of its way not to make the substance (i.e. clean versus unclean) of food and drink a matter of concern. That doesn't mean there are not concerns about food but they generally don't fall into the vegetarian versus meat eating argument.

Besides the vegetarian arguments versus meat eating arguments are basically bogus from a scientific standpoint regarding health. There are only two groups of people in this world, those who eat animal products and those who do not. That is vegans versus animal food eaters. Vegetarians and meat eaters are actually shades of distinctions within the larger group of animal eaters. That is vegetarians and meat eaters differ only in degree not in kind. Vegans however represent a qualitative difference in what they eat nutritionally speaking. In other words there are a number of necessary nutritional items needed in our diets that a vegan can't get without adding some kind of animal product (or supplementation) to his diet.


Quote
Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

But after the fall many things changed, although gradually. According to a number of the Fathers, there was no sex before the Fall either. The fall was all encompassing and included our food supply. Most of us simply cannot obtain in an adequate manner all the nutrients we need from an exclusively vegan diet. As it is within the Orthodox Church we spend roughly half the year eating a diet that hearkens back to paradise. There might come a day once again where we are all vegans, depending on how you understand certain biblical passages, but that day has yet to arrive.

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2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

Exactly where did you get this interpretation of the relative passages from Genesis?

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3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a remedy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

We already hearken back to paradise during the numerous fasting times that appear on the calendar. But it is not complete nor physiologically is such a thing possible for most people. What is interesting from a scientific standpoint is that no healthy society has ever been discovered that was exclusively vegan.

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5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

Your first point is demonstrably false in terms of physical survival for some people, and at any rate eating meat does not encompass the totality of eating animal foods. And in agricultural production many animals are killed. So whether you eat plants only or eat meat or insects or whathaveyou, many animals died for your sustenance.

Your last point assumes the veracity of your first point. The Church does have us return to the diet of paradise periodically, but in a wise and spiritual manner, not in a way that does not account for our basic physical needs. Vegetarianism is a diet of animal foods. We err when we look at it as if it was a variation of veganism. It is not, it is a variation of animal food eating. The strict fast is the diet of paradise. Any regimen that includes fish, dairy, eggs, etc. is not - no matter if the dietary name suggests something otherwise.

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6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

This argument, while seemingly plausible on the surface, is wrong on many levels. First it is simply untrue that by lessening our dependence on livestock that more food would be available to people. 2/3 of the earth's dry surface is not suitable for agriculture and many livestock feed in these areas. Second, the use of livestock, as much a renewable resource as plants, provide many functions well beyond meat. Third, given some of the necessary nutrients that cannot be obtained from a vegan diet, and the many anti-nutrients that are contained in a plant food diet, it is not at all clear that switching to a plant food diet would not further "the starvation of millions..." Fourth, your last statement is simply economically false.

This is already a long post, so I won't flesh out the above or add even further reasons, but I would be happy to do so in subsequent posts.

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7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

Yes I agree, but with the exception of your last sentence, this is an argument against factory farming, not eating meat per se.

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8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

I don't know why you are feeling less agitated as a result of your new diet. Maybe it is because you were making poor food choices when you were eating meat and now less so since becoming a vegetarian. Some of the greatest killers to walk this earth have been vegetarians. This is a very poor argument to make from either side of the debate. Peace will be a feature of all societies when the Prince of Peace reigns in every man's heart, no matter what the makeup of their diet.

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Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

Meat can also be very good for one's health if properly raised and prepared. So can shellfish by the way. Fish may not be treated cruelly, but land animals don't need to be treated cruelly either. Again, this is not an argument of real import in terms of a vegetarian diet since one can easily switch to eating animals that are humanely raised.

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My Priest told me that according to Church Tradition Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish.

Of course, all faithful Jews would have eaten meat at the Passover among other feasts.

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So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unnecessarily brutalized today.

Again, this is not an argument to stop eating meat, only an argument to stop eating factory farmed meat. But more importantly, there is simply no argument available to an Orthodox Christian to advocate not eating meat per se. It just isn't a place we should go. The Tradition of the Church makes that clear over and over again.

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« Reply #90 on: June 25, 2009, 06:53:01 PM »

/\ Post of the Month! Thank you so much for this, Tobit!
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« Reply #91 on: June 25, 2009, 07:28:33 PM »

See, to me even eating insects would take you out of the vegan category. Maybe I was too into that PETA stuff when I was a vegan?
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« Reply #92 on: June 25, 2009, 07:48:58 PM »

What's the reason for the limitations on fish?

It could have something to do with levels of mercury or other substances in the fish.

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« Reply #93 on: June 25, 2009, 07:52:40 PM »

^ precisely. The excess mercury and other stuff is excreted in breast milk and then the baby is essentially poisoned.
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« Reply #94 on: June 25, 2009, 07:57:17 PM »

What's the reason for the limitations on fish?

It could have something to do with levels of mercury or other substances in the fish

This is very true, and most unfortunate. I am so glad that where I live, the waters are practically pristine, so I have no qualms about any possible health hazard from any fish I catch. Whatever I catch I clean, and, where required, I fillet, within a couple of hours of catching, then vacuum-packed and frozen, if I'm not going to eat it straight away.
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« Reply #95 on: June 25, 2009, 08:31:29 PM »

I love when I walk into a health food store and overhear some clueless vegetarian 'preaching' about the virtues of vegetarianism.. Roll Eyes They will go on to give out a bunch of skewed facts about the dangers of eating meat. Just about every one of these people look so pale and sickly. I wanna walk up and say, "Hey bro, maybe if you ate a little meat it would put some vibrancy and color back into you and give your body the proper nutrition it needs."  Cheesy

Is it true that most of eat too much meat...yes! I think that the key here is moderation. Especially when it comes to Americans, we not only eat too much meat, but we tend to eat the unhealthiest kinds of meat. Another problem we are dealing with is a tainted meat supply thanks to corporations pumping farm animals full of hormones (ahh the virtues of capitalism on a macro level..). The food supply in America is borderline poisonous with all the hormones, pesticides, and chemicals these large corporations like Kraft put in them. For instance, Kraft puts cellulose in it's cheese products. Cellulose is used in attic installation for homes.

I think most meat in the supermarket is tainted and unhealthy to eat. Organic safe meats from local farms is definitely the way to go. We need to stop shopping at Walmart  and start supporting the local health food stores. It's how they do it in Europe and they are healthier and live longer than Americans even though they smoke and drink more. It comes down to what they are putting in their mouths. They tend to have a diet with a proper balance of healthy meats, vegetables, fruit, and grains. Americans could learn a thing or two from their European counterparts.
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« Reply #96 on: June 25, 2009, 08:52:53 PM »

From what I know, monks in Mount Athos eat fish only once a week and that's it, no meat. It's a tribute/tradition related to Man's diet before the Fall.

I can't eat any meat either. Not after watching Earthlings. That documentary was a real slap.

Cool.

Tell us more about "Earthlings," and how it influenced your dietary decisons. I'm not familiar with the movie.

Selam

I bet they take Raw Goats Milk.

National Geographic is currently shooting a documentary on a Greek Island where they live much longer than average and are healthy and vigorous well into their 90's.
They eat a similar diet, plant based, some fish but lots and lots of Raw Goats Milk. www.bluezones.com
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« Reply #97 on: June 25, 2009, 09:17:58 PM »

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I would recommend reading up on the work of Weston Price at www.westonaprice.org. The Traditional diet of Humans is Milk and Meat. When Price studied isolated people who were not yet exposed to the refined foods of the 20th Century they were far healthier. Also, the replacement of Wholesome Raw Milk with denatured Pasteurized Milk has been a major loss for our health.. Read www.realmilk.com

Low carb,  fat and protien from the meat of pasture fed animals ( and fish) plus raw milk is the natural diet for people. Vegetables and fruit and grains are secondary and are best eaten raw and better fermented.   

There are a lot of good things posted over at the Weston Price Foundation website, but the impression that one could possibly walk away with that a high carb diet per se is unhealthy and that raw milk is necessary or at least desirable for a healthy diet isn't one of them. Dr. Price observed healthy groups that ate no dairy and consumed a high carbohydrate diet. There are a number of modern healthy groups who consume a high carbohydrate diet and no dairy. While it is true that the common western style high carbohydrate diet is very problematic, many low-carb advocates throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Dr. Price was an outstanding clinician, but not everything that passes under his name is truly indicative of his complete body of work. One thing that Dr. Price stressed over and over from his research, there is no one optimal macro-nutrient profile. You cannot defend a low carb protocol from his work. Dr. Price demonstrated that one can thrive on any number of macro-nutrient variables provided some baseline standards are met.

This is not to take anything away from Sally Fallon and the good folks over at the WAPF, but IMO, sometimes something other than science on several major issues rules over there. Or to put it colloquially, sometimes there is too much Sally and not enough Weston.
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« Reply #98 on: June 25, 2009, 09:47:37 PM »

Then why do we have molars designed for grinding, much less acidic digestive systems than the carnivores, and longer intestines more capable of digesting plant material if vegetables, fruits, and grains are more of a secondary food for us?

That said, I certainly agree that pasture fed animals are much better for eating than much of the artificially engineered meat that's sold in most supermarkets.

Actually we don't handle many plant foods very well, in particular grains, at least in their native state. Continuing with the theme of Dr. Price (there are others but since his name was raised I will use him as an example) every healthy group he studied treated their grains in some manner either by prolonged soaking, sprouting, and/or fermenting. We don't have the digestive mechanisms of a cow who has four stomachs to properly digest all the plant material it consumes, and make it utilizable. But we can get the plant nutrition from the cow by eating the cow that ate the plants  Grin Or failing that, use our brains to make the food in question through some form of processing (i.e soaking, sprouting, fermenting, or even refining) a potent source of nutrition or at least an adequate source of nutrition with few side effects.

Much of the nutrition in whole grains is not available to us unless the grain is treated in some fashion. Many vegetables are problematic because of the anti-nutrients present which are neutralized only by cooking or some form of soaking/cooking combo. The modern concept of whole foods is very misleading in my opinion. Healthy groups like the traditional Thai for example, and the some of the African groups that Price and others studied even refined their grains! Shocked You mention that in some nutrition circles and you are likely to have your head handed to you.

At any rate, whole untreated grains can be quite problematic. Lots of raw vegetables are not automatically best. And fruit (sweet), while not as problematic raw as the other two plant foods, should be eaten in moderation because of the high levels of fructose. The Kitavans for example, who lead very healthy lives on a high carbohydrate diet (and no dairy) eat a lot of fruit, but only when it is in season.
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« Reply #99 on: June 25, 2009, 10:14:31 PM »

Thanks for those very interesting and educational points. Of course for me personally most saturated fat is poison. I have a hereditary problem with extremely high cholesterol that has resulted in me having had two heart attacks by the age of 34. I have always been an athlete and never have had a weight problem, but my arteries continue to clog up because my liver manufactures too much of the bad cholesterol (LDL is the bad I think). I used to love cheese and steak, but no more.

Hmmm...I'm not a doctor so I will refrain from medical comments, but what you describe sounds like hypercholesterolemia, which is a genetic/metabolic defect that has nothing to do with the issue of meat eating being healthy or unhealthy, any more than someone being casein intolerant and can't drink milk actually addresses the issue of whether milk per se is a healthy food to consume. In my experience, people get into a lot of trouble when they take a medical diet that works for them, and attempt to extrapolate the benefits of that diet for all of humankind.

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I would argue with your initial statement that we should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. If this were true, then why didn't God command Adam and Eve to eat meat in the Garden? If meat eating is the ideal diet, then the ideal state of man in a sinless paradise would have included eating meat don't you think?

Also, there is plenty of good saturated fat to be found from vegetative sources like macadamia nuts, almonds, avacado, and coconut.

Almonds and avocados are not good sources of saturated fat. In fact they contain the one type of fat (PUFA) that has been shown scientifically that if eaten in excess does cause or exacerbate many disease issues (unlike saturated fat which has little scientific evidence condemning it although "mainstream" nutrition and medicine would have you believe otherwise). The saturated fat in macadamia nuts is almost non-existent but they are a good source of mono-unsaturated fat. The fat content of coconut (and its various derivative foods) is almost all saturated and is an excellent food both nutritionally and medicinally.
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« Reply #100 on: June 25, 2009, 10:23:21 PM »

STEAK

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« Reply #101 on: June 25, 2009, 10:26:39 PM »

Look.. I'm not a Doctor, I only play one on the Internet Smiley but you should look into the issue of Cholesterol as the culprit for heart disease. It probably isn't . Pick up a copy of "Traditional Foods are your best Medicine" by Ron Schmid and also "Eat Fat to Lose Fat" by Sally Fallon.

The fact is, the people who live the longest in our society today are women with very high cholesterol. The death rate goes up only very slightly in men with Cholesterol in excess of 300. We have been sold a bill of goods by  Agra Business and Big Pharma. IMHO

Two great links that tackle the issue of cholesterol head on:

The Cholesterol Myths
http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/index.html
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« Reply #102 on: June 25, 2009, 10:30:48 PM »

STEAK



Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww....

It's still the Apostles' Fast for some of us...

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
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« Reply #103 on: June 25, 2009, 10:49:39 PM »

From what I know, monks in Mount Athos eat fish only once a week and that's it, no meat. It's a tribute/tradition related to Man's diet before the Fall.

I can't eat any meat either. Not after watching Earthlings. That documentary was a real slap.

Eating meat or fish or dairy once a week is a far cry from an exclusive vegan diet or the diet in paradise. Eating fish 52 times a year (more if they eat it at more than one meal) just doesn't qualify as an animal free diet. The nutritional difference alone is significant. The Swiss of the Loetschental Valley, one of the groups that Price studied, ate meat about once a week, but they consumed a lot of dairy in the form of milk and cheese.

This is why I take vegan claims to health with a huge grain of salt. Invariably, they almost all cheat by eating animal foods, even if only occasionally. This random cheating often provides sufficient nutrients that would otherwise be absent from a vegan diet (and thus keep any nutritional problems from arising) such that scientifically speaking you have to group them with the animal food eaters.
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« Reply #104 on: June 25, 2009, 10:56:03 PM »

From what I know, monks in Mount Athos eat fish only once a week and that's it, no meat. It's a tribute/tradition related to Man's diet before the Fall.

I can't eat any meat either. Not after watching Earthlings. That documentary was a real slap.

Eating meat or fish or dairy once a week is a far cry from an exclusive vegan diet or the diet in paradise. Eating fish 52 times a year (more if they eat it at more than one meal) just doesn't qualify as an animal free diet. The nutritional difference alone is significant. The Swiss of the Loetschental Valley, one of the groups that Price studied, ate meat about once a week, but they consumed a lot of dairy in the form of milk and cheese.

This is why I take vegan claims to health with a huge grain of salt. Invariably, they almost all cheat by eating animal foods, even if only occasionally. This random cheating often provides sufficient nutrients that would otherwise be absent from a vegan diet (and thus keep any nutritional problems from arising) such that scientifically speaking you have to group them with the animal food eaters.

You should also keep in mind that in the Paradise, there will be no electricity or artificially heated water or detergents. So, get used to the smell of these socks, worn many days in a row. And don't say there will be no sweating in Paradise. Those claims are without any substance in Scripture or Fathers.
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« Reply #105 on: June 25, 2009, 11:00:25 PM »

Baby Cows die when the are fed Pasturized Milk...

This was originally propagated by the Weston Price Foundation but after being challenged by a number of their own members and/or fellow travelers for a valid scientific reference, they retracted this statement.

Still though, I agree. Pasteurized milk is not a good food.
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« Reply #106 on: June 25, 2009, 11:05:46 PM »

STEAK



Aye Carumba! Why are you posting this during the Apostles Fast?Huh Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #107 on: June 25, 2009, 11:09:48 PM »

You should also keep in mind that in the Paradise, there will be no electricity or artificially heated water or detergents. So, get used to the smell of these socks, worn many days in a row. And don't say there will be no sweating in Paradise. Those claims are without any substance in Scripture or Fathers.

LOL! Actually all my references to Paradise are referring to the Garden of Eden. I'm quite sure your socks won't make it to heaven. laugh
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« Reply #108 on: June 25, 2009, 11:10:29 PM »

STEAK



Aye Carumba! Why are you posting this during the Apostles Fast?Huh Grin Grin Grin Grin

Yeah, see reply 102... Doings of the devil...
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« Reply #109 on: June 25, 2009, 11:33:27 PM »

Thanks for those very interesting and educational points. Of course for me personally most saturated fat is poison. I have a hereditary problem with extremely high cholesterol that has resulted in me having had two heart attacks by the age of 34. I have always been an athlete and never have had a weight problem, but my arteries continue to clog up because my liver manufactures too much of the bad cholesterol (LDL is the bad I think). I used to love cheese and steak, but no more.

Hmmm...I'm not a doctor so I will refrain from medical comments, but what you describe sounds like hypercholesterolemia, which is a genetic/metabolic defect that has nothing to do with the issue of meat eating being healthy or unhealthy, any more than someone being casein intolerant and can't drink milk actually addresses the issue of whether milk per se is a healthy food to consume. In my experience, people get into a lot of trouble when they take a medical diet that works for them, and attempt to extrapolate the benefits of that diet for all of humankind.

Quote
I would argue with your initial statement that we should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. If this were true, then why didn't God command Adam and Eve to eat meat in the Garden? If meat eating is the ideal diet, then the ideal state of man in a sinless paradise would have included eating meat don't you think?

Also, there is plenty of good saturated fat to be found from vegetative sources like macadamia nuts, almonds, avacado, and coconut.

Almonds and avocados are not good sources of saturated fat. In fact they contain the one type of fat (PUFA) that has been shown scientifically that if eaten in excess does cause or exacerbate many disease issues (unlike saturated fat which has little scientific evidence condemning it although "mainstream" nutrition and medicine would have you believe otherwise). The saturated fat in macadamia nuts is almost non-existent but they are a good source of mono-unsaturated fat. The fat content of coconut (and its various derivative foods) is almost all saturated and is an excellent food both nutritionally and medicinally.


You are right about Coconut oil, I take a teaspoon everyday. Helps to keep hormones optimal and a must if you are an athlete or work out often. It's one of the best fats out there and it's also a great anti-fungal. I think the crux of the problem is all the packaged and processed foods in today's modern society. I think that some foods that are at the root of so many health problems these days are those that consist of yeast, refined flour products, moldy, and fungal containing foods. There is a doctor that has done some ground breaking research into this and he has come to the conclusion that if these foods were eliminated from our diet, we would be prone to much less disease and health problems. His name is Dr. Doug Kauffman & has a website knowthecause.com. He has authored books well known both conventional and the alternative healthcare field. I recently have cut back on most breads (except yeast & gluten free one's), most dairy, mushrooms, peanut butter etc. and feel much more energetic.  

 I do think a near perfect diet model would be something akin to the Paleolithic hunter/gather diet of our ancestors. A diet that consisted mostly of meat and vegetation that could be picked(berries as an example). Grains were introduced much later in the human diet and are problematic for many people. I'm not a low carber  by any means, it's just finding the right source because just about everything in the chain supermarkets is bad except maybe for sweet potato's and a few other low GI veggies.  
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« Reply #110 on: June 25, 2009, 11:43:05 PM »

STEAK



Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww....

It's still the Apostles' Fast for some of us...

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Aye, don't talk about your fasting openly!
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« Reply #111 on: June 26, 2009, 12:34:33 AM »

Did anyone ever hear of the benefits of duckfat verses butter or canola/vegetable oil. French chefs have been using it for centuries and now the studies are in...Duck Fat is lower in mono-unsaturated & saturated fats than butter by 30 + percent and has a healthier assimilation than vegetable oil. Just a fun tidbit  laugh
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« Reply #112 on: June 26, 2009, 12:45:37 AM »

Username!

why can't you abstain and be like us fish eaters?



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« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2009, 12:54:13 AM »

There's Clarified Butter on that plate...in the little ramekin, (rumble grrrrrrr) which brings up an interesting question, if animal fat is clarified, (no fat left) does that make it o.k. to eat during a fast for us?
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« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2009, 01:40:28 AM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible.

It is quite possible to live a very healthy lifestyle eating almost entirely animal products. The Inuit and the Masai come immediately to mind but there are other groups as well. And it quite possible to suffer heart attacks on a vegan or vegetarian diet. It happens all the time. Your post assumes meat was the cause of your heart attacks. How do you know?

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But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle.


I think this is a stretch. Whatever value there may be in a particular style of eating, whether it is all meat or all vegetables or somewhere in between, I think the NT goes out of its way not to make the substance (i.e. clean versus unclean) of food and drink a matter of concern. That doesn't mean there are not concerns about food but they generally don't fall into the vegetarian versus meat eating argument.

Besides the vegetarian arguments versus meat eating arguments are basically bogus from a scientific standpoint regarding health. There are only two groups of people in this world, those who eat animal products and those who do not. That is vegans versus animal food eaters. Vegetarians and meat eaters are actually shades of distinctions within the larger group of animal eaters. That is vegetarians and meat eaters differ only in degree not in kind. Vegans however represent a qualitative difference in what they eat nutritionally speaking. In other words there are a number of necessary nutritional items needed in our diets that a vegan can't get without adding some kind of animal product (or supplementation) to his diet.


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Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

But after the fall many things changed, although gradually. According to a number of the Fathers, there was no sex before the Fall either. The fall was all encompassing and included our food supply. Most of us simply cannot obtain in an adequate manner all the nutrients we need from an exclusively vegan diet. As it is within the Orthodox Church we spend roughly half the year eating a diet that hearkens back to paradise. There might come a day once again where we are all vegans, depending on how you understand certain biblical passages, but that day has yet to arrive.

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2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

Exactly where did you get this interpretation of the relative passages from Genesis?

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3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a remedy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

We already hearken back to paradise during the numerous fasting times that appear on the calendar. But it is not complete nor physiologically is such a thing possible for most people. What is interesting from a scientific standpoint is that no healthy society has ever been discovered that was exclusively vegan.

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5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

Your first point is demonstrably false in terms of physical survival for some people, and at any rate eating meat does not encompass the totality of eating animal foods. And in agricultural production many animals are killed. So whether you eat plants only or eat meat or insects or whathaveyou, many animals died for your sustenance.

Your last point assumes the veracity of your first point. The Church does have us return to the diet of paradise periodically, but in a wise and spiritual manner, not in a way that does not account for our basic physical needs. Vegetarianism is a diet of animal foods. We err when we look at it as if it was a variation of veganism. It is not, it is a variation of animal food eating. The strict fast is the diet of paradise. Any regimen that includes fish, dairy, eggs, etc. is not - no matter if the dietary name suggests something otherwise.

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6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

This argument, while seemingly plausible on the surface, is wrong on many levels. First it is simply untrue that by lessening our dependence on livestock that more food would be available to people. 2/3 of the earth's dry surface is not suitable for agriculture and many livestock feed in these areas. Second, the use of livestock, as much a renewable resource as plants, provide many functions well beyond meat. Third, given some of the necessary nutrients that cannot be obtained from a vegan diet, and the many anti-nutrients that are contained in a plant food diet, it is not at all clear that switching to a plant food diet would not further "the starvation of millions..." Fourth, your last statement is simply economically false.

This is already a long post, so I won't flesh out the above or add even further reasons, but I would be happy to do so in subsequent posts.

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7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

Yes I agree, but with the exception of your last sentence, this is an argument against factory farming, not eating meat per se.

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8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

I don't know why you are feeling less agitated as a result of your new diet. Maybe it is because you were making poor food choices when you were eating meat and now less so since becoming a vegetarian. Some of the greatest killers to walk this earth have been vegetarians. This is a very poor argument to make from either side of the debate. Peace will be a feature of all societies when the Prince of Peace reigns in every man's heart, no matter what the makeup of their diet.

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Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

Meat can also be very good for one's health if properly raised and prepared. So can shellfish by the way. Fish may not be treated cruelly, but land animals don't need to be treated cruelly either. Again, this is not an argument of real import in terms of a vegetarian diet since one can easily switch to eating animals that are humanely raised.

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My Priest told me that according to Church Tradition Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish.

Of course, all faithful Jews would have eaten meat at the Passover among other feasts.

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So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unnecessarily brutalized today.

Again, this is not an argument to stop eating meat, only an argument to stop eating factory farmed meat. But more importantly, there is simply no argument available to an Orthodox Christian to advocate not eating meat per se. It just isn't a place we should go. The Tradition of the Church makes that clear over and over again.

Tobit

I appreciate your well reasoned points. I don't necessarily agree with them all, but they are interesting and worthy of consideration. I do find it odd that many of those who aren't vegetarians are somehow bothered by those of us who are. I have repeatedly stated that I am not arguing this issue on behalf of the Church, but that it is simply my own personal decision based upon a variety of reasons. If I find that a vegetarian lifestyle has benefited me personally, and if I believe that it is also a Life promoting diet, then why should I not promote this and advocate it for others? I'm not judging those who choose to eat meat. As I said previously, I often eat fish and even Lamb once a year. You have done quite well in advocating your views on the value of meat eating, so why shouldn't I do the same with my vegetarian lifestyle?

Selam
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« Reply #115 on: June 26, 2009, 02:04:08 AM »

Thanks for those very interesting and educational points. Of course for me personally most saturated fat is poison. I have a hereditary problem with extremely high cholesterol that has resulted in me having had two heart attacks by the age of 34. I have always been an athlete and never have had a weight problem, but my arteries continue to clog up because my liver manufactures too much of the bad cholesterol (LDL is the bad I think). I used to love cheese and steak, but no more.

Hmmm...I'm not a doctor so I will refrain from medical comments, but what you describe sounds like hypercholesterolemia, which is a genetic/metabolic defect that has nothing to do with the issue of meat eating being healthy or unhealthy, any more than someone being casein intolerant and can't drink milk actually addresses the issue of whether milk per se is a healthy food to consume. In my experience, people get into a lot of trouble when they take a medical diet that works for them, and attempt to extrapolate the benefits of that diet for all of humankind.

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I would argue with your initial statement that we should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. If this were true, then why didn't God command Adam and Eve to eat meat in the Garden? If meat eating is the ideal diet, then the ideal state of man in a sinless paradise would have included eating meat don't you think?

Also, there is plenty of good saturated fat to be found from vegetative sources like macadamia nuts, almonds, avacado, and coconut.

Almonds and avocados are not good sources of saturated fat. In fact they contain the one type of fat (PUFA) that has been shown scientifically that if eaten in excess does cause or exacerbate many disease issues (unlike saturated fat which has little scientific evidence condemning it although "mainstream" nutrition and medicine would have you believe otherwise). The saturated fat in macadamia nuts is almost non-existent but they are a good source of mono-unsaturated fat. The fat content of coconut (and its various derivative foods) is almost all saturated and is an excellent food both nutritionally and medicinally.


Not everyone who smokes will develop lung cancer. Some people live to be a hundred years old, yet they smoked most of their life, drank heavily, and ate food that was supposedly bad for them. But I don't think any reasonable doctor would say that smoking, excessive drinking, and eating unhealthy foods is OK.

Yes, I do have this genetic condition called "hypercholesterolemia;" that is one reason why I have to avoid certian types of saturated fats. It is also why I choose to be a vegetarian. Others can eat meat if they wish. But many people have the same condition that I have and are unaware of it. So that is one reason that I generally advocate a vegetarian diet.

But I think above all my choice is based on my Pro-Life convictions. I try to uphold and respect Life and to avoid killing. Being a vegetarian is part of my comprehensive world view of affirming LIFE. Not that I believe meat eating is murder or any such silliness, just that I find being a vegetarian is a more Life-affirming choice for me personally.

When I eat Lamb during the Pascha Feast, I remember these words from St. Paul: "For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer." [I Timothy 4:4]

Selam

Selam
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« Reply #116 on: June 26, 2009, 02:10:50 AM »

Baby Cows die when the are fed Pasturized Milk...
So what?  We're not cows.

I think the lesson is that Pasturization so alters milk that even the Cows cant use it.
My point is that calves would likely die from drinking goat milk, but we consider it a healthy alternative to pasteurized cow milk.
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« Reply #117 on: June 26, 2009, 02:18:13 AM »

You are right about Coconut oil, I take a teaspoon everyday. Helps to keep hormones optimal and a must if you are an athlete or work out often. It's one of the best fats out there and it's also a great anti-fungal.

Coconut oil can be good, but the entire coconut is better. I'm one of those people who do not do well on a low fat vegan diet (or a vegan diet high in modern seed oils or junk fats), and coconut (coconut milk in particular), changed my fasting habits dramatically. Before my expanded use of coconut in general, and the discovery of the Kitavan diet in particular, I could never go more than 5 days during Lent on a strict vegan fast. With its use, I have been able to do just fine. There are so many uses for coconut water, milk, and meat because of the high saturated fat content. You can use it in soups to desserts and everything in between. I have helped other people as well who also struggled on the modern style low fat or high junk fat Lenten vegan diet.

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I think the crux of the problem is all the packaged and processed foods in today's modern society. I think that some foods that are at the root of so many health problems these days are those that consist of yeast, refined flour products, moldy, and fungal containing foods. There is a doctor that has done some ground breaking research into this and he has come to the conclusion that if these foods were eliminated from our diet, we would be prone to much less disease and health problems. His name is Dr. Doug Kauffman & has a website knowthecause.com. He has authored books well known both conventional and the alternative healthcare field. I recently have cut back on most breads (except yeast & gluten free one's), most dairy, mushrooms, peanut butter etc. and feel much more energetic.

There is no question that refined grains (which are often full of yeasts, molds, fungi, etc.) and refined sugars are at the heart of our dietary problems. Eliminate these items and health often improves dramatically.  

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I do think a near perfect diet model would be something akin to the Paleolithic hunter/gather diet of our ancestors. A diet that consisted mostly of meat and vegetation that could be picked(berries as an example). Grains were introduced much later in the human diet and are problematic for many people. I'm not a low carber  by any means, it's just finding the right source because just about everything in the chain supermarkets is bad except maybe for sweet potato's and a few other low GI veggies.  

You can do fine on a diet high in carbs where the bulk of those carbs come from root vegetables and tropical style fruits (the tropical fruits haven't been subject to all the genetic engineering that has occurred with many other fruits) assuming your body isn't damaged beyond repair by the consumption of a high amounts of junk carbs. The Kitavan diet is precisely that - a diet high in root vegetables, coconut, vegetables, fish, and fruit. It is easily adaptable to Lenten or Monastic use. The Kitavans have an extremely high level of health with little cardiovascular disease or other diseases of civilization. They live healthy lives right up until a few days before they die. Now that is the way to go!

"The elderly residents of Kitava generally remain quite active up until the very end, when they begin to suffer fatigue for a few days and then die from what appears to be an infection or some type of rapid degeneration. Although this is seen in western societies, it is relatively rare in elderly vital people. The quality of life among the oldest residents thus appeared to be good in the Trobriand Islands."

http://www.staffanlindeberg.com/TheKitavaStudy.html

One other interesting point. While the Kitavans overall fat intake is low, 90% of the fat they consume is saturated, and about 10% higher on average than our saturated fat content in the west, even though our overall fat consumption is higher. For all the healthy low fat groups this seems to be the common denominator - low overall fat but high saturated fat, at least by western standards.

Kitava: Wrapping it Up
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/08/kitava-wrapping-it-up.html

excerpt:

"There's a lot to be learned from the Kitava study. Kitavans eat a diet of root vegetables, coconut, fruit, vegetables and fish and have undetectable levels of cardiovascular disease (CVD), stroke and overweight. Despite smoking like chimneys. 69% of their calories come from carbohydrate, 21% from fat and 10% from protein. This is essentially a carbohydrate-heavy version of what our paleolithic ancestors ate. They also get lots of sunshine and have a moderately high activity level."

The Kitava Study
http://www.staffanlindeberg.com/TheKitavaStudy.html

excerpt:

"The main results of the Kitava study, that there is no ischaemic heart disease (and no stroke, see Chapter 4.2), are unanimously confirmed by medical experts with knowledge of the Trobriand Islands or other parts of Melanesia. Likewise, Jüptner noted no cases of angina pectoris, myocardial infarction or sudden death during his 5 years as a provincial doctor on the islands at the beginning of the 1960s, when the population was roughly 12,000. (Jüptner H, unpublished data). His experience is based partly on patients that visited him due to illness, and partly from systematic health examinations given in all the different villages at three separate times. The same observation was made by Schiefenhövel, physician and human ethologist from the Max Planck Institute in Munich (Schiefenhövel W, unpublished data). He can speak the language of the Trobrianders, Kilivila, and has his own hut on Kaileuna, one of the Trobriand Islands, where he examined close to 3,000 patients during his repeated visits over the course of close to 15 years. Like Jüptner, he is very familiar with the nature of cardiovascular disease and did not see any cases of the disease."
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« Reply #118 on: June 26, 2009, 02:20:15 AM »

For instance, Kraft puts cellulose in it's cheese products. Cellulose is used in attic installation for homes.
Evidence that you don't know what you're talking about. Wink  Cellulose is probably the key component in the walls of plant cells, making cellulose present in virtually all the vegetation we eat.
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« Reply #119 on: June 26, 2009, 02:26:36 AM »

Did anyone ever hear of the benefits of duckfat verses butter or canola/vegetable oil. French chefs have been using it for centuries and now the studies are in...Duck Fat is lower in mono-unsaturated & saturated fats than butter by 30 + percent and has a healthier assimilation than vegetable oil. Just a fun tidbit  laugh

All traditional fats (beef tallow, butter, ghee, duck fat, leaf lard, cod liver oil, olive oil, etc.) are better assimilated than the modern seed/vegetable oils. Modern seed oils (like canola) should be avoided like the plague. The fact that duck fat is lower in mono-unsaturated and saturated fats than butter makes it less optimal than butter or ghee, but still a good fat provided it is not the dominant fat in the diet. Despite the use of duck fat, saturated fat is the dominant fat in the French diet.
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« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2009, 02:28:08 AM »

There's Clarified Butter on that plate...in the little ramekin, (rumble grrrrrrr) which brings up an interesting question, if animal fat is clarified, (no fat left) does that make it o.k. to eat during a fast for us?

Clarified butter (or ghee) is nothing but fat. The milk proteins have been boiled away.
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« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2009, 02:44:15 AM »

Duckfat? Canola oil? Nothing compares to this!

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« Reply #122 on: June 26, 2009, 02:45:37 AM »

THANK YOU EVERYONE for the great discussion. I hope that we are all learning together and finding ways to be healthier and more conscientious about our own health, the health of others, and the well-being of God's glorious creation. A lot of you have really presented some great information. I look forward to reading more of your posts later. I appreciate the reasoned responses and the civil Christian tone that has been present on this thread. I have been challenged and edified, and I hope you have been as well.

This will be my last post on this thread for a while. I've got to get back to catching up on some reading, writing, guitar playing, and other matters when I have some spare time.

Thanks again. Keep the discussion going as long as you like. I'm sure this will be very helpful to a lot of people. I'll be back in due time.

Selam
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« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2009, 03:00:37 AM »

Not everyone who smokes will develop lung cancer.

I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make.

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Some people live to be a hundred years old, yet they smoked most of their life, drank heavily, and ate food that was supposedly bad for them. But I don't think any reasonable doctor would say that smoking, excessive drinking, and eating unhealthy foods is OK.

Leaving aside the smoking issue, which is not the slam dunk you might think it is in terms of being detrimental to health, nowhere have I advocated excessive drinking or eating unhealthy foods. You have brought to the table that meat is an unhealthy food. I challenge that assumption and go even further by saying that the basis for many healthy diets around the world is meat and other animal products.

And while there might be some given individual here or there that violates what looks to us as necessary precepts for being healthy, I'm talking about the result in the aggregate, i.e. how groups fare over the long haul, not what a few exceptional individuals might achieve for a variety of reasons.

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Yes, I do have this genetic condition called "hypercholesterolemia;" that is one reason why I have to avoid certian types of saturated fats. It is also why I choose to be a vegetarian. Others can eat meat if they wish. But many people have the same condition that I have and are unaware of it. So that is one reason that I generally advocate a vegetarian diet.

Unless you are privy to some statistics that I am unaware of, hypercholesterolemia is not that common. But even if it was, I would be more inclined to buy your argument if you qualified your statements with warnings about getting checked for hypercholesterolemia so that one could adopt a vegetarian diet if need be. Instead, from the very beginning of this thread you have advocated your medical diet as the ideal "biblical diet."

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But I think above all my choice is based on my Pro-Life convictions. I try to uphold and respect Life and to avoid killing. Being a vegetarian is part of my comprehensive world view of affirming LIFE. Not that I believe meat eating is murder or any such silliness, just that I find being a vegetarian is a more Life-affirming choice for me personally.

I don't follow. Meat eating is not killing but vegetarianism is a more life affirming choice. I'm missing something here. It looks to me like you are introducing an argument through the back door that Holy Tradition does not allow regarding food.

We also know that plant life experiences pain as well. And that the increased cultivation of plant foods often leads to the killing of small animals and other kinds of life.

Having said that, I see no problem with a vegetarian diet as a personal choice.

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When I eat Lamb during the Pascha Feast, I remember these words from St. Paul: "For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer." [I Timothy 4:4]

Selam

Okay. I think everyone here would agree with that.
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« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2009, 03:17:12 AM »

I appreciate your well reasoned points. I don't necessarily agree with them all, but they are interesting and worthy of consideration. I do find it odd that many of those who aren't vegetarians are somehow bothered by those of us who are. I have repeatedly stated that I am not arguing this issue on behalf of the Church, but that it is simply my own personal decision based upon a variety of reasons. If I find that a vegetarian lifestyle has benefited me personally, and if I believe that it is also a Life promoting diet, then why should I not promote this and advocate it for others? I'm not judging those who choose to eat meat. As I said previously, I often eat fish and even Lamb once a year. You have done quite well in advocating your views on the value of meat eating, so why shouldn't I do the same with my vegetarian lifestyle?

Selam

I'm not bothered by vegetarians. They eat animal foods like I do.  Grin

People are welcome to promote whatever they want, as long as it is true and proper. Promoting a particular diet as the diet is not true and proper. Denigrating a diet or particular food, whether for personal or Church reasons, that isn't based on truth or evidence is not proper either. Saying that meat eating per se is unhealthy just doesn't square with Tradition or the available scientific evidence.

Finally, I'm responding to your advocacy. I'm not personally advocating anything in this thread. But I do perk up when someone attempts to advocate the ideal "biblical" diet for health or ethical reasons in terms of the particular foods that make up our diet. Practically speaking there is no one optimal diet in terms of foodstuffs or macro-nutrient ratios. Theologically speaking, this side of heaven there is no such thing as the ideal biblical diet. It is an option as Orthodox Christians that simply isn't available to us.

Thanks for the pleasant interaction. I enjoyed it. Take care.

Tobit
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« Reply #125 on: June 26, 2009, 07:04:48 AM »

Tobit,

In other words there are a number of necessary nutritional items needed in our diets that a vegan can't get without adding some kind of animal product (or supplementation) to his diet.

I think I'm going to need you to prove this, since I'm very well aware of people who have eaten essentially vegan diets (what I mean by this: consumption of fish or meat or milk is very rare, less frequent than even once per month) for generations who have no such deficiencies, and instead have lived long lives.
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« Reply #126 on: June 26, 2009, 12:24:52 PM »

Baby Cows die when the are fed Pasteurized Milk...

This was originally propagated by the Weston Price Foundation but after being challenged by a number of their own members and/or fellow travelers for a valid scientific reference, they retracted this statement.

Still though, I agree. Pasteurized milk is not a good food.

Okay.. I stand corrected.

I also want to comment on the issue of Low Carbs. Sally Fallon ( for the rest of the folks here who don't know) is the President and voice of the Weston Price Foundation ( Dr. Price has been with the Lord for many years now). In her book "Eat Fat, Lose Fat" she recommends about 70 carbs per day . That is above the level Dr. Atkens would recommend for weight loss. It keeps you above the point where you will developed Ketosis but it is still by all measures a Low Carb way of eating.

I understand you comment that the work of Dr. Price himself can lead to all kinds of conclusions, but today the leaders of the Weston Price Foundation are squarely on the side of going low carb. That is where I got the idea.

More important is the central theme of eating foods that are highly processed and include saturated fats and raw milk, and depending on pasture fed animals free of Hormonal manilpulations..etc. We should study the diets of more primitive societies and begin to pattern our foods along those lines. There are more commonalities among these Traditional Diets than differences it seems to me.

I know that I have restored my good health after starting to eat this way.
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« Reply #127 on: June 26, 2009, 03:23:49 PM »

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why can't you abstain and be like us fish eaters?





?  Lobster isn't fish.  And I'll pass, cutting meat out on Fridays during lent and picking something to give up for 40 days and whining about it is just wussy.  "oh my I could go for a snickers bar.. I gave up chocolate for lent"  that whine I hear just gets old.  Of course so does "the fifth ingredient in that bread is egg derived so it can't meet my lenten fasting needs."  Hence why we're supposed to fast and not tell people (including not refusing non-fasting foods at a non-Orthodox gathering/dinner) because we're to get our reward from God.  If we tell people we're fasting then we're seeking that reward from men not God.  In otherwords, I grow tired of people complaining about their fast.  It's none of anyone's business if you're fasting because you should be doing it for God. 
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« Reply #128 on: June 26, 2009, 03:42:18 PM »

Tobit is correct, I miss spoke about Clarified Butter or Duckfat...It is the Proteins that are clarified out of the fat. I was tire when I wrote it. [officially retracted] Althoug I'm still curious if it would be ok to eat if it is clarified? - Not to say I would, since I try to abstain from  Sorry about to talk about my own personal fasting.
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« Reply #129 on: June 26, 2009, 03:44:06 PM »

Username! it's shellfish?

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« Reply #130 on: June 26, 2009, 03:45:42 PM »

Relax Username, I was being facetious. You know me Kiss
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« Reply #131 on: June 26, 2009, 04:55:50 PM »

Relax Username, I was being facetious. You know me Kiss

Hey, I sometimes don't miss a chance to preach a bit if I can Smiley  I'll have two of those lobsters with a giant schwarzbier and some corn on the cob.
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« Reply #132 on: June 26, 2009, 04:56:42 PM »

Tobit is correct, I miss spoke about Clarified Butter or Duckfat...It is the Proteins that are clarified out of the fat. I was tire when I wrote it. [officially retracted] Althoug I'm still curious if it would be ok to eat if it is clarified? - Not to say I would, since I try to abstain from  Sorry about to talk about my own personal fasting.

When in doubt, contact the appropriate cleric for such information namely your parish priest or if you bump into him, maybe your bishop.
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« Reply #133 on: June 26, 2009, 07:49:50 PM »

Relax Username, I was being facetious. You know me Kiss

Hey, I sometimes don't miss a chance to preach a bit if I can Smiley  I'll have two of those lobsters with a giant schwarzbier and some corn on the cob.
Coming right up!

 Just make sure you leave room for dessert, my kind of dessert Smiley



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« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2009, 08:10:40 PM »

See, to me even eating insects would take you out of the vegan category. Maybe I was too into that PETA stuff when I was a vegan?

No question most vegans do not consider insects an appropriate food of vegans.
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« Reply #135 on: June 27, 2009, 08:12:40 PM »

I bet they take Raw Goats Milk.

National Geographic is currently shooting a documentary on a Greek Island where they live much longer than average and are healthy and vigorous well into their 90's.
They eat a similar diet, plant based, some fish but lots and lots of Raw Goats Milk. www.bluezones.com

Lots and lots of raw goats milk suggest to me the diet is milk based, not plant based  Grin
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« Reply #136 on: June 27, 2009, 08:16:52 PM »

O.K. so you avoid meat..how do you get protein? From nuts?

The Hebrews always consumed the Peace offering, and it wasn't steamed broccoli.
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« Reply #137 on: June 27, 2009, 08:19:50 PM »

Tobit,

In other words there are a number of necessary nutritional items needed in our diets that a vegan can't get without adding some kind of animal product (or supplementation) to his diet.

I think I'm going to need you to prove this, since I'm very well aware of people who have eaten essentially vegan diets (what I mean by this: consumption of fish or meat or milk is very rare, less frequent than even once per month) for generations who have no such deficiencies, and instead have lived long lives.

I would be happy to, but before I do what group(s) of people do you know that have been "essentially" vegans for generations?
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« Reply #138 on: June 27, 2009, 08:48:19 PM »

I also want to comment on the issue of Low Carbs. Sally Fallon ( for the rest of the folks here who don't know) is the President and voice of the Weston Price Foundation ( Dr. Price has been with the Lord for many years now). In her book "Eat Fat, Lose Fat" she recommends about 70 carbs per day . That is above the level Dr. Atkens would recommend for weight loss. It keeps you above the point where you will developed Ketosis but it is still by all measures a Low Carb way of eating.

Yes it is and while a choice that certainly fits within the Weston Price paradigm, it is certainly not the Weston Price paradigm, and to the extent that low carb eating is presented as such it is a denial of one of the very basic principles that Weston Price taught over and over - there is no one food or macro-nutrient ratio that is the ultimate for health. The tribes he studied clearly demonstrated the truth of his observations.

Quote
I understand you comment that the work of Dr. Price himself can lead to all kinds of conclusions,

No, I never said that the work of Dr. Price can lead to all kinds of conclusions. It can't. I said that embracing the low carb lifestyle (or declaring that raw milk is necessary for optimal health) as the approach to health is not indicative of the breadth of the work of Dr. Price. In fact, it is a denial of it since one of his basic principles as I noted above is completely at odds with such an approach.

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but today the leaders of the Weston Price Foundation are squarely on the side of going low carb. That is where I got the idea.

And they are wrong. Even some of the material on their website is opposed to such an approach. They have to acknowledge that it is certainly possible to eat a high carb diet and be healthy, since you can't draw any other conclusion from the work of Dr. Price. But then they try to qualify such an approach by saying most people today wouldn't be comfortable eating the protein sources these groups ate (like insects). Huh? Why would "moderns" have to eat the same protein sources to achieve the same effect? It is a very dubious argument and easily dispelled by observing modern healthy high carb groups who have different protein sources than some of the tribes that Price studied.

Not to mention that one of the poster child groups often used for illustrating the superiority of an animal food diet, the Masai, while not eating any vegetation that we are aware of, certainly did not consume a low carb diet by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote
More important is the central theme of eating foods that are highly processed and include saturated fats and raw milk, and depending on pasture fed animals free of Hormonal manilpulations..etc.

If you drop raw milk out of the equation, I agree 100%. Raw milk, while a potentially excellent food, is not necessary for good health. Most of the groups Price observed did not consume raw dairy. I consume it all the time and if available it is certainly a powerful option, but one can do quite well without it.

Quote
We should study the diets of more primitive societies and begin to pattern our foods along those lines. There are more commonalities among these Traditional Diets than differences it seems to me.

If we did most of us would not be consuming raw dairy.  Grin

Dr. Price taught that it is not the slavish obedience to a particular diet of one of the groups that is important, but rather making sure we get all the bodybuilding nutrients that are represented in the diet of a particular group. And there are many ways to do that, as noted by the many different diets he did observe among the healthy tribes he studied.

The commonality is the nutrients, not any one particular food.

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I know that I have restored my good health after starting to eat this way.

And eating the "Weston Price way" does not necessarily mean eating low carb or consuming raw dairy.
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« Reply #139 on: June 27, 2009, 08:51:27 PM »

Tobit is correct, I miss spoke about Clarified Butter or Duckfat...It is the Proteins that are clarified out of the fat. I was tire when I wrote it. [officially retracted] Althoug I'm still curious if it would be ok to eat if it is clarified? - Not to say I would, since I try to abstain from  Sorry about to talk about my own personal fasting.

Protein or no, its an animal fat, and a very tasty one at that.  laugh
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« Reply #140 on: June 27, 2009, 08:52:41 PM »

Relax Username, I was being facetious. You know me Kiss

Well I for one got a good chuckle out of it.
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« Reply #141 on: June 27, 2009, 08:56:08 PM »

O.K. so you avoid meat..how do you get protein? From nuts?

The Hebrews always consumed the Peace offering, and it wasn't steamed broccoli.

I'm not sure who you were addressing this to, but dairy, fish, eggs, and coconut products can provide plenty of protein.
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« Reply #142 on: June 27, 2009, 09:14:20 PM »

Also, a combination of some legumes and whole grain rice provides sources...even mushrooms and hempseeds have most of the amino acids.
However, unless one is careful with eating the correct amount of nutrition daily, being a vegan can be detrimental to your health...especially in a nice restaurant (chef's carry knives and know how to carve up a vegan in a matter of a few minutes) Skinny Vegan Bisque with cucumber creme fraiche, anyone?
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« Reply #143 on: June 28, 2009, 05:55:56 AM »

Recalling that it is what comes out of a person's mouth, not what goes in, that matters, eat whatever helps you be more Christ-like...and quit worrying over the small stuff.
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« Reply #144 on: June 28, 2009, 12:27:31 PM »

I don't know if it was asked yet or not...but I've always wondered how vegans and vegetarians fast in the Orthodox Church.  Anybody know? 
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« Reply #145 on: June 28, 2009, 02:46:32 PM »

Recalling that it is what comes out of a person's mouth, not what goes in, that matters, eat whatever helps you be more Christ-like...and quit worrying over the small stuff.

I agree.  I also have issues with the people who have to make a public spectacle of themselves and their eating preferences.  Like at combined family dinners the vegetarians making a big deal out of it and then talking about what restaurant, etc.. has real vegetarian stuff and doesn't sneak any fish based sauce or whatnot into the food.  Seriously, the only reason they can be vegetarian or vegan or preach how others should eat is because they live in the USA.  They take into no consideration that many people have to eat what they can get on a daily basis in the world and don't enjoy the lofty 500,000 ftsq. supermarkets.  Seriously, I don't care if someone is vegan or vegetarian but my philosophy is the same one that pertains to fasting; keep it to yourself. 
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« Reply #146 on: June 28, 2009, 03:23:16 PM »

And remember, you are what you eat! hehe I remember people saying that in the 70's.

I do think this should be a private matter. But it is interesting to know why some people prefer to abstain from meat.

It got me thinking..and thats not easy to do! Undecided

 
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« Reply #147 on: June 28, 2009, 04:23:00 PM »

I don't know if it was asked yet or not...but I've always wondered how vegans and vegetarians fast in the Orthodox Church.  Anybody know? 
Usually they work out personal fasting rules in cooperation with and in submission to the guidance of their spiritual fathers.
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« Reply #148 on: June 28, 2009, 05:15:04 PM »

Thank you for your response Peter.  I thought that was the procedure, though I'm still curious how they fast...examples and such.  Very curious.  Smiley   Thanks again!
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« Reply #149 on: June 28, 2009, 08:27:22 PM »

I don't know if it was asked yet or not...but I've always wondered how vegans and vegetarians fast in the Orthodox Church.  Anybody know? 
Usually they work out personal fasting rules in cooperation with and in submission to the guidance of their spiritual fathers.

I'm not sure I understand the question. Obviously vegans do not eat any animal products anyway, so fasting from meat is moot. But fasting is far more extensive than merely abstaining from meat. So vegans abstain from alcohol, coffee perhaps, oils (including vegetable oils I would guess), etc. But even more importantly, all of us should strive to abstain from any fleshly passions and desires that may be controlling us.

I am a vegetarian, not a vegan; but abstaining from fish, alcohol, and dairy products is not difficult for me. What I struggle with is being faithful in my prayer life, being faithful in reading the Scriptures, and abstaining from impure and ungodly thoughts and attitudes.

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have mercy on me a sinner!"

Selam   
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« Reply #150 on: June 29, 2009, 12:28:56 AM »

God wants us to eat pork!  Pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork and more pork.

And the occasional root vegetable.....and dont forget to add pork.
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« Reply #151 on: June 29, 2009, 01:01:52 AM »

God wants us to eat pork!  Pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork and more pork.

And the occasional root vegetable.....and dont forget to add pork.
I like the way this man thinks...IanL. must be a chef.
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« Reply #152 on: June 29, 2009, 03:07:26 AM »

God wants us to eat pork!  Pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork and more pork.

And the occasional root vegetable.....and dont forget to add pork.

How about humans? Is cannibalism explicitly forbidden in the Bible? I know murder is forbidden, but what about eating the flesh of those who are "justifiably" killed in war? Why let all that good meat go to waste? Might as well eat it huh? I mean, since "all things are clean."  Wink

Selam
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« Reply #153 on: June 29, 2009, 09:38:18 AM »

God wants us to eat pork!  Pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork and more pork.

And the occasional root vegetable.....and dont forget to add pork.

"mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..  pork"

Homer Simpson
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« Reply #154 on: June 29, 2009, 09:40:12 AM »

God wants us to eat pork!  Pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork pork and more pork.

And the occasional root vegetable.....and dont forget to add pork.

How about humans? Is cannibalism explicitly forbidden in the Bible? I know murder is forbidden, but what about eating the flesh of those who are "justifiably" killed in war? Why let all that good meat go to waste? Might as well eat it huh? I mean, since "all things are clean."  Wink

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« Reply #155 on: June 29, 2009, 09:46:49 AM »

I don't know if it was asked yet or not...but I've always wondered how vegans and vegetarians fast in the Orthodox Church.  Anybody know? 

[joke]
Obviously they do the reverse of us Meatatarians, they are forced to eat meaty goodness for the entire fast.
[/joke]

-nick
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« Reply #156 on: June 29, 2009, 10:00:42 AM »

I don't know if it was asked yet or not...but I've always wondered how vegans and vegetarians fast in the Orthodox Church.  Anybody know? 

[joke]
Obviously they do the reverse of us Meatatarians, they are forced to eat meaty goodness for the entire fast.
[/joke]

-nick


heh cute Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #157 on: June 29, 2009, 11:31:28 AM »

Recalling that it is what comes out of a person's mouth, not what goes in, that matters, eat whatever helps you be more Christ-like...and quit worrying over the small stuff.

I agree.

But is the very real - and documented - suffering of animals in the infamous "factory farm" systems to be dismissed as "small stuff"? 

Because that's what turned me into a vegan.  And no, I certainly don't mean to sit in judgment of anyone who continues to eat meat.

However, I would sit in judgment of anyone who took the time to investigate the situation for themselves, found that, yes indeed, there is a lot of unnecessary suffering going on - both of the animals and the humans that slaughter them - and said, "Aw, that's too bad, but I don't really care, 'cause I like meat."

In a similar discussion on another religious forum, I was horrified to see someone - ostensibly a follower of Christ - actually write:  "Tortured animals taste better!"  Ugh.   Cry
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« Reply #158 on: June 29, 2009, 03:31:03 PM »

I do agree with Theisgal.  Perhaps there should be slaughter houses or whatnot that ensure minimal pain to the animals (without anesthetics though!)  However, humans treat eachother so horribly (wars, violations, murders, etc.) that perhaps we (the Homo sapian sapians) should work on treating our fellow humans better and then we may extend that action to the animals we use for foodstuff.  Just an idea, no biggie.  Peace! 
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« Reply #159 on: June 29, 2009, 04:30:21 PM »

Recalling that it is what comes out of a person's mouth, not what goes in, that matters, eat whatever helps you be more Christ-like...and quit worrying over the small stuff.

I agree.

But is the very real - and documented - suffering of animals in the infamous "factory farm" systems to be dismissed as "small stuff"? 

Because that's what turned me into a vegan.  And no, I certainly don't mean to sit in judgment of anyone who continues to eat meat.

However, I would sit in judgment of anyone who took the time to investigate the situation for themselves, found that, yes indeed, there is a lot of unnecessary suffering going on - both of the animals and the humans that slaughter them - and said, "Aw, that's too bad, but I don't really care, 'cause I like meat."

In a similar discussion on another religious forum, I was horrified to see someone - ostensibly a follower of Christ - actually write:  "Tortured animals taste better!"  Ugh.   Cry

I agree with you my friend. We are morally culpable if we understand the cruel fate of these creatures of God and contribute to their suffering in the name of exercising our "Christian liberties."

Ironically, reading through these threads, it seems that there is far more judgment heaped on vegetarians than vegentarians are exhibiting towards meat eaters. For example, "Username" wants us to keep or vegetarian convictions private, but he doesn't mind proclaiming his meat eating convictions publicly. A bit hypocritical in my opinion.

By the way, I'm still waiting for you meat eaters to tell me what's wrong with cannibalism. And don't give me some extreme example like the Dohner (Donner?) situation. Tell me what's wrong with eating human flesh if the meat is fresh and the human has been "justifiably" killed? I know this is a sick question, but I'm looking for some consistancy from those of you who argue for eating meat based on "all things are clean."

Selam

 
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« Reply #160 on: June 29, 2009, 04:48:02 PM »

I do agree with Theisgal.  Perhaps there should be slaughter houses or whatnot that ensure minimal pain to the animals (without anesthetics though!)  However, humans treat eachother so horribly (wars, violations, murders, etc.) that perhaps we (the Homo sapian sapians) should work on treating our fellow humans better and then we may extend that action to the animals we use for foodstuff.  Just an idea, no biggie.  Peace! 

Yes, that is one way to look at it.  However, you may want to check out a book called "Slaughterhouse" by Gail Eisnitz (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591024501/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/182-7969978-2755331?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=1DJYDNSF20XC88G0SNPW&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=304485901&pf_rd_i=1573921661).

She interviewed men and women who worked at slaughterhouses throughout the U.S., and found that almost all the ones who were willing to speak to her had had serious problems in their personal lives directly related to their work.  For example, alcohol and drug abuse.  And some of the men admitted going home from a day of clubbing pigs to death, to slapping their wives and children around.

A lot of the problems stem from the fact that there is such a high demand for meat in our country that the corporations who own the slaughterhouses and factory farms have a financial incentive to "look the other way" when humane laws are violated.  This results not only in tremendous suffering for the animals, but also for the human beings who work with them.

Plus, an awfully high percentage of the meat obtained from these places is riddled with filth and disease ... which is why you see an increasing number of "e coli" cases.  Her chapter on the children who have died from "e coli" is heartbreaking.

Perhaps if we seriously resolved to treat both human beings and animals with more respect and dignity, both animals and human beings would benefit.
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« Reply #161 on: June 29, 2009, 05:12:59 PM »

I do agree with Theisgal.  Perhaps there should be slaughter houses or whatnot that ensure minimal pain to the animals (without anesthetics though!)  However, humans treat eachother so horribly (wars, violations, murders, etc.) that perhaps we (the Homo sapian sapians) should work on treating our fellow humans better and then we may extend that action to the animals we use for foodstuff.  Just an idea, no biggie.  Peace! 

Yes, that is one way to look at it.  However, you may want to check out a book called "Slaughterhouse" by Gail Eisnitz (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591024501/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/182-7969978-2755331?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=1DJYDNSF20XC88G0SNPW&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=304485901&pf_rd_i=1573921661).

She interviewed men and women who worked at slaughterhouses throughout the U.S., and found that almost all the ones who were willing to speak to her had had serious problems in their personal lives directly related to their work.  For example, alcohol and drug abuse.  And some of the men admitted going home from a day of clubbing pigs to death, to slapping their wives and children around.

A lot of the problems stem from the fact that there is such a high demand for meat in our country that the corporations who own the slaughterhouses and factory farms have a financial incentive to "look the other way" when humane laws are violated.  This results not only in tremendous suffering for the animals, but also for the human beings who work with them.

Plus, an awfully high percentage of the meat obtained from these places is riddled with filth and disease ... which is why you see an increasing number of "e coli" cases.  Her chapter on the children who have died from "e coli" is heartbreaking.

Perhaps if we seriously resolved to treat both human beings and animals with more respect and dignity, both animals and human beings would benefit.

Perhaps if we seriously resolved to treat both human beings and animals with more respect and dignity, both animals and human beings would benefit.

Amen!

While there is indeed a hierarchy of order and being in creation, there is nevertheless an inextricable link amongst all of nature. If we abuse God's creation or abuse God's creatures, we invariably abuse ourselves. 

By the way, have you seen the movie "Fast Food Nation"?

Selam
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« Reply #162 on: June 29, 2009, 07:52:35 PM »

I couldn't resist

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« Reply #163 on: June 29, 2009, 09:21:35 PM »

Being the fact that I used to be Vegan (five yrs. + 2 vegetarian yrs.) I used to be very passionate about the whole subject. I studied up on anything you can think of concerning the treatment of animals. All of it sad, true, and disturbing...point is, There is a way to be a good steward and eat meat. As a Christian, one should respect the animal/plant kingdom as much as possible but also remember that we are in need of nourishment. If an animal needs to be slaughtered for sustenance, we should do this as responsibly as possible. I feel too many humans are out of touch with the amount of human energy it takes to raise, the amount of food to feed, the gore in killing animals, let alone the land it takes to raise them on. If people were more (hands on) educated in this process, they would either gain a respect for it and make better decisions regarding it, or quit eating meat or milking animals altogether. Hunting and raising animals has given me a profound respect for the whole thing.
When I make a choice to buy meat or fish, I think of the sustainability of the animal's harvest. All this information is out there and if we are to be stewards of this planet, we have a responsibility to educate ourselves. Super Markets seperate us from this reality.
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« Reply #164 on: June 30, 2009, 02:22:38 AM »

Being the fact that I used to be Vegan (five yrs. + 2 vegetarian yrs.) I used to be very passionate about the whole subject. I studied up on anything you can think of concerning the treatment of animals. All of it sad, true, and disturbing...point is, There is a way to be a good steward and eat meat. As a Christian, one should respect the animal/plant kingdom as much as possible but also remember that we are in need of nourishment. If an animal needs to be slaughtered for sustenance, we should do this as responsibly as possible. I feel too many humans are out of touch with the amount of human energy it takes to raise, the amount of food to feed, the gore in killing animals, let alone the land it takes to raise them on. If people were more (hands on) educated in this process, they would either gain a respect for it and make better decisions regarding it, or quit eating meat or milking animals altogether. Hunting and raising animals has given me a profound respect for the whole thing.
When I make a choice to buy meat or fish, I think of the sustainability of the animal's harvest. All this information is out there and if we are to be stewards of this planet, we have a responsibility to educate ourselves. Super Markets seperate us from this reality.

I absolutely respect your position.

Selam
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« Reply #165 on: June 30, 2009, 01:59:40 PM »

I couldn't resist



That's cute, Quinault!   Cheesy

With all due respect, though, I would point out that it's precisely that kind of labeling of vegans as "wimps" that makes some of us a little testy in everyday conversation.  Wink
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« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2009, 02:02:53 PM »

By the way, have you seen the movie "Fast Food Nation"?

Selam

As a matter of fact, yes, I did see it last year.

I'm not sure I'm 100% behind it though.  To me, the basic premise is flawed.  I don't think eating the same of *anything* every day for 30 days is going to be all that good for you.

And my grandpa, bless his heart, goes to his local McDonald's every morning for breakfast -- he'll be 98 this year and is quite healthy!  Smiley

So for me the health issues of "vegetarian vs. carnivore" are secondary to the animal welfare issue.  I do think that *overall* a vegetarian diet is healthier for most people.  But even if it wasn't, I would still practice it, unless I had really humane sources for meat & dairy products.
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« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2009, 02:25:03 PM »

By the way, have you seen the movie "Fast Food Nation"?

Selam

As a matter of fact, yes, I did see it last year.

I'm not sure I'm 100% behind it though.  To me, the basic premise is flawed.  I don't think eating the same of *anything* every day for 30 days is going to be all that good for you.

And my grandpa, bless his heart, goes to his local McDonald's every morning for breakfast -- he'll be 98 this year and is quite healthy!  Smiley

So for me the health issues of "vegetarian vs. carnivore" are secondary to the animal welfare issue.  I do think that *overall* a vegetarian diet is healthier for most people.  But even if it wasn't, I would still practice it, unless I had really humane sources for meat & dairy products.

As I mentioned before, you should check out the Weston Price Foundation www.westonaprice.org

They recommend what they call "Traditional Diets" which should come from well taken care of pastured animals, fed their own natural diets. They strongly oppose confinement farming of animals and educate people about the vastly better nutrition from whole foods and naturally raised animals. Healthy animals make healthy milk and meat.

Anyone who has eaten grass fed natural beef or milk from grass fed cows can tell the difference in quality and taste immediately. Even the look of an egg from a pastured chicken is obviously better than an egg from a poor tortured chicken from a factory farm. The yolks are far more yellow and plumper.   
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« Reply #168 on: June 30, 2009, 02:28:23 PM »

And my grandpa, bless his heart, goes to his local McDonald's every morning for breakfast -- he'll be 98 this year and is quite healthy!  Smiley

Sure, but is he eating egg, cheese, and sausage on a buttered biscuit with syrup every morning? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #169 on: June 30, 2009, 02:31:48 PM »

There is a difference between "Fast food Nation" and the documentry "Super size me." Has anyone seen both?
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« Reply #170 on: June 30, 2009, 03:00:03 PM »

There is a difference between "Fast food Nation" and the documentry "Super size me." Has anyone seen both?

Yep. "Fast Food Nation" is a fictionalized drama. It paints a picture of an entire industrialized culture, from migrant workers, to nasty slaughterhouses, to teenage fast food employees, to the homogeneous, pre-processed, chain-style food produced by it all. It's based on the reporting of an investigative journalist who did the original research for a series of articles in Rolling Stone magazine.

"Super Size Me" is a documentary. Totally different genre.
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« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2009, 03:51:07 PM »

Fast Food nation is ALSO a non-fiction book. My husband read the book (I skimmed it) and then we have watched both movies as well.
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« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2009, 04:23:38 PM »

Username!

why can't you abstain and be like us fish eaters?





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« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2009, 05:00:38 PM »

And my grandpa, bless his heart, goes to his local McDonald's every morning for breakfast -- he'll be 98 this year and is quite healthy!  Smiley

Sure, but is he eating egg, cheese, and sausage on a buttered biscuit with syrup every morning? Roll Eyes

Believe it or not, there is hardly any correlation between cholesterol in your food and your own cholesterol count. Not only that, there is not much of a correlation between your cholesterol count and heart disease and stroke. The Trans-fats may well be bad for you but eggs and cheese are great sources of protein and fats that your body needs to work well. The bread on the egg mcMuffin is probably the worst thing for you.
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« Reply #174 on: June 30, 2009, 05:07:59 PM »

^ I was going to mention a similar point - your cholesterol can actually go up more from a quarter-loaf of bread than from a pound of bacon, especially if you're not properly burning off all the calories that come from those complex carbohydrates.
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« Reply #175 on: June 30, 2009, 05:39:45 PM »

There is a difference between "Fast food Nation" and the documentry "Super size me." Has anyone seen both?

I think Theistgal was confusing these two movies.

I haven't seen "Super Size Me."

Selam
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« Reply #176 on: July 07, 2009, 07:08:57 PM »

There is a difference between "Fast food Nation" and the documentry "Super size me." Has anyone seen both?

I think Theistgal was confusing these two movies.

I haven't seen "Super Size Me."

Selam

You caught me!!!   Grin 

Yes, I was thinking of "Super Size Me" - sorry 'bout that!
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« Reply #177 on: July 07, 2009, 11:17:49 PM »

Recalling that it is what comes out of a person's mouth, not what goes in, that matters, eat whatever helps you be more Christ-like...and quit worrying over the small stuff.

That's true, except... bacteria still DO go into a person's mouth, and oh yes, they do matter...
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« Reply #178 on: July 14, 2009, 08:10:03 AM »

I only eat meat when I'm hungry - the rest of the time I abstain.  Grin
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« Reply #179 on: July 14, 2009, 02:46:11 PM »

Recalling that it is what comes out of a person's mouth, not what goes in, that matters, eat whatever helps you be more Christ-like...and quit worrying over the small stuff.

That's true, except... bacteria still DO go into a person's mouth, and oh yes, they do matter...

And said bacteria cannot be avoided, if that matters at all. Wink
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« Reply #180 on: July 14, 2009, 03:19:35 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam


I promised to myself not to read the other answers to this topic. I'll directly give my personal answer to your questions. As a premise, I state firmly that I have a strong respect for vegetarians, but I'm not one, and don't feel it necessary for salvation.
1.Actually in this life we are still mortal, we must wait for the results of the Resurrection to have a perfected body back. 2. I'm not a Creationist. Anyway, even assuming a literal interpretation of Genesis: the dove shows that plants survived (the olive) and on the Ark there were only couples of animals: what would they eat if they had to wait for the animals to have babies? Eating food is necessary for sustainance in a fallen world in general 3. Jesus said that what enters our mouth is pure, but what gets out is impure, declaring all alimentary laws ineffective. Also Paul repeated that what is eaten with a blessing is pure. 4. The same as answer (1) 5. When I saw a friend of mine FAIDING for having refused to eat meat for some days, I can assure you that at least a minimal assumption of meat is somehow necessary for our existence 6. This is a proof from economy, not from revelation. Are you putting at rest your car for a similar reason? 7. When Jesus transferred some demons into pigs and had them suicide in a pit, he didn't show the same kind of respect. Animals, while having a great function in the world (I love pets and think they're adorable and loving to us) are clearly not at the same level as humans, and shouldn't be overestimated. The image of God is in mankind alone: animals are only creatures of God as well as stones and plants, you know? Do you show the same kind of respect to apples? 8. Hitler was vegetarian too. Don't think being vegetarian helped him be better: the two things are not necessarily linked to each other!

I also add two reflections:1. the Orthodox have an ultra-vegan diet for some 250 days a year... 2. why do you eat fish? Aren't they animals too?

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #181 on: July 14, 2009, 04:19:31 PM »

Recalling that it is what comes out of a person's mouth, not what goes in, that matters, eat whatever helps you be more Christ-like...and quit worrying over the small stuff.

That's true, except... bacteria still DO go into a person's mouth, and oh yes, they do matter...

And said bacteria cannot be avoided, if that matters at all. Wink

We need all kinds of bacteria in our digestive system in order for it to function properly. After you have been on a course of antibiotics, for example, you have killed off both good and bad bacteria and need to re-supply your body.

The idea that we must concentrate on avoiding germs is the most popular medical theory today. But there are different idea's about that. Another paradigm is that we should concentrate on building ourselves up so our natural defenses can sort through what is good or bad in our systems. The "Context" that a germ is put into is most important, not that we have had contact with it.
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« Reply #182 on: July 14, 2009, 09:12:32 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam


I promised to myself not to read the other answers to this topic. I'll directly give my personal answer to your questions. As a premise, I state firmly that I have a strong respect for vegetarians, but I'm not one, and don't feel it necessary for salvation.
1.Actually in this life we are still mortal, we must wait for the results of the Resurrection to have a perfected body back. 2. I'm not a Creationist. Anyway, even assuming a literal interpretation of Genesis: the dove shows that plants survived (the olive) and on the Ark there were only couples of animals: what would they eat if they had to wait for the animals to have babies? Eating food is necessary for sustainance in a fallen world in general 3. Jesus said that what enters our mouth is pure, but what gets out is impure, declaring all alimentary laws ineffective. Also Paul repeated that what is eaten with a blessing is pure. 4. The same as answer (1) 5. When I saw a friend of mine FAIDING for having refused to eat meat for some days, I can assure you that at least a minimal assumption of meat is somehow necessary for our existence 6. This is a proof from economy, not from revelation. Are you putting at rest your car for a similar reason? 7. When Jesus transferred some demons into pigs and had them suicide in a pit, he didn't show the same kind of respect. Animals, while having a great function in the world (I love pets and think they're adorable and loving to us) are clearly not at the same level as humans, and shouldn't be overestimated. The image of God is in mankind alone: animals are only creatures of God as well as stones and plants, you know? Do you show the same kind of respect to apples? 8. Hitler was vegetarian too. Don't think being vegetarian helped him be better: the two things are not necessarily linked to each other!

I also add two reflections:1. the Orthodox have an ultra-vegan diet for some 250 days a year... 2. why do you eat fish? Aren't they animals too?

In Christ,   Alex

Good responses. Thank you.

I want to be clear that I never stated or implied in any way that what one eats or does not eat is essential to spiritual salvation. I started this thread to express my personal views and generate some good discussion about diet, health, social consciousness, and Christain teaching. I think that we have all learned a lot from these various responses. I have learned much, although I choose to reamain a vegetarian (not a vegan.)

I eat fish because Our Lord ate fish. But of course I abstain from it during our Fast days.

I asked why it would be wrong to eat human flesh (as long as one did not murder in order to obtain it) if the argument about "all things are clean" is to remain consistent. Of course I know that humans are uniquely created in the image of God, and thus are to be respected above all other created things. That's one reason I am a pacifist.

I like your comments about vegetation being present even during the flood. I think you are correct. Someone earlier pointed out that there must have also been seaweed. I can't remember where I heard that argument about God allowing meat to be eaten since the flood had destroyed all the vegetation. (Maybe the Seven Day Adventist teach this?) That argument obviously has some flaws in it, and is not the crux of my vegetarian convictions anyway.

Thanks again for the good comments. Smiley

Selam
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« Reply #183 on: July 16, 2009, 07:24:59 AM »

Quote
Good responses. Thank you.

I want to be clear that I never stated or implied in any way that what one eats or does not eat is essential to spiritual salvation. I started this thread to express my personal views and generate some good discussion about diet, health, social consciousness, and Christain teaching. I think that we have all learned a lot from these various responses. I have learned much, although I choose to reamain a vegetarian (not a vegan.)

I eat fish because Our Lord ate fish. But of course I abstain from it during our Fast days.

I asked why it would be wrong to eat human flesh (as long as one did not murder in order to obtain it) if the argument about "all things are clean" is to remain consistent. Of course I know that humans are uniquely created in the image of God, and thus are to be respected above all other created things. That's one reason I am a pacifist.

I like your comments about vegetation being present even during the flood. I think you are correct. Someone earlier pointed out that there must have also been seaweed. I can't remember where I heard that argument about God allowing meat to be eaten since the flood had destroyed all the vegetation. (Maybe the Seven Day Adventist teach this?) That argument obviously has some flaws in it, and is not the crux of my vegetarian convictions anyway.

Thanks again for the good comments. Smiley

Selam

Hi my friend!
On the question of why we can't eat humans, I have found my personal answer. Genesis says that Adam was given power and possession over animals. On the contrary Eve - being of the same nature as Adam -  was said to be complementary to him. Eve was not a possession of Adam (even after the consequences of the Fall), she was on his same level, bone of bone and flesh of flesh with him. This makes the difference.

On your consuming fish, I only partially agree with your conclusions. There's no element in the Bible, after all, that might let us think Jesus never ate meat. And the fact that he celebrated at least three Passover Meals in his life (and that he was even the director in the Last Supper) makes me think he also ate the lamb with his disciples...

Anyway, I support your diet as you have your respectable convictions, and of course you are showing great respect with creation, which I think is indeed a very good choice. I am myself against all violence to animals...  and your cause is good and legitimate!

In Christ, your brother Alex
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« Reply #184 on: July 21, 2009, 07:55:50 PM »

We cant eat humand becasue they're the only animal on earth that doesen't taste great inbetween two pieces of bread and mustard.

and that whole moral thingy......
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« Reply #185 on: July 21, 2009, 09:00:32 PM »

We cant eat humand becasue they're the only animal on earth that doesen't taste great inbetween two pieces of bread and mustard.

and that whole moral thingy......

Well, as far as your first point goes, that's pretty subjective. There may be some out there who think human flesh tastes great between two pieces of bread.

Of course I agree with you about the "moral thingy." But my question was directly related to the argument that "all things are clean." If this is literaly true, then wouldn't human flesh be clean as well? And I stipulated that it could not involve murder, but that if a human being was killed in war, then why not eat it if all things are truly clean? I am using an absurd example to try to point out the absurdity of using the "all things are clean" argument for eating meat.

Selam
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« Reply #186 on: July 21, 2009, 10:09:28 PM »

I tell you what, if you were layin' dead next to me, and I was starving and near death with no other food to eat, You'd look tasty with or without the mustard and sliced bread! laugh
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« Reply #187 on: July 21, 2009, 10:12:37 PM »

I tell you what, if you were layin' dead next to me, and I was starving and near death with no other food to eat, You'd look tasty with or without the mustard and sliced bread! laugh
Lord please bless the food (which used to be one of your servants) and drink (which is his blood) of this your servant.... Wink Grin Grin
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« Reply #188 on: July 21, 2009, 10:26:57 PM »

I tell you what, if you were layin' dead next to me, and I was starving and near death with no other food to eat, You'd look tasty with or without the mustard and sliced bread! laugh
Lord please bless the food (which used to be one of your servants) and drink (which is his blood) of this your servant.... Wink Grin Grin

Of course. And you'd probably look tasty to me too.

But again, if "all things are clean," then why waste all that good "clean" meat that could be used to feed starving people. I mean, if war is justified and if God intends for us to eat any and all types of meat, then it seems very logical and practical to use the "meat" of those who have been killed in war to feed starving people. I mean, how can those who defend war and proclaim that "all things are clean" argue against my logic here? Again, I know this sounds absurd, but I'm just trying to press the consistency to its logical end.

Selam
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« Reply #189 on: July 22, 2009, 07:35:30 AM »

On the subject "all things are clean" I might change your perspective.
A human body, both living of dead, is not a 'thing'. Since death only separates body and spirit from the point of view of matter, but the person remains one in both elements (body and spirit), even a dead human body is still a person, and not a thing.

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #190 on: July 22, 2009, 02:00:50 PM »

On the subject "all things are clean" I might change your perspective.
A human body, both living of dead, is not a 'thing'. Since death only separates body and spirit from the point of view of matter, but the person remains one in both elements (body and spirit), even a dead human body is still a person, and not a thing.

In Christ,   Alex
Great Post! I have to agree. With this approach, one can assess the seperation between Man and every other created "thing". This is what makes us different. This is why we, as humans, are meant for more than the ultimate destiny of a dog or a rock. Also, this seperates Christianity from such religions as Paganism, Bhuddism, Hinduism, and New Age. We are not all created equal to other created things. We have "being" or soul.
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« Reply #191 on: July 22, 2009, 04:08:35 PM »

Well, as far as your first point goes, that's pretty subjective. There may be some out there who think human flesh tastes great between two pieces of bread.

Of course I agree with you about the "moral thingy." But my question was directly related to the argument that "all things are clean." If this is literaly true, then wouldn't human flesh be clean as well? And I stipulated that it could not involve murder, but that if a human being was killed in war, then why not eat it if all things are truly clean? I am using an absurd example to try to point out the absurdity of using the "all things are clean" argument for eating meat.

Selam

Humans have a soul. Animals do not. Human bodies are a temple for the Holy Spirit, and are not to be desecrated. This is why the Church is against cremation.
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« Reply #192 on: July 22, 2009, 06:41:38 PM »

AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
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« Reply #193 on: July 22, 2009, 07:21:24 PM »

AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
.....wa'did we win?
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« Reply #194 on: July 22, 2009, 11:47:47 PM »

AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
.....wa'did we win?

A free vegetarian supper at my house! When can you come? Wink

Selam
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« Reply #195 on: July 22, 2009, 11:54:28 PM »

AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
.....wa'did we win?

A free vegetarian supper at my house! When can you come? Wink

Selam
on a Fast day. Wink
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« Reply #196 on: July 23, 2009, 12:07:03 AM »

AlexanderOfBergamo, HandMaiden, and Simplygermain:

Congratulations! You guys are the first to finally answer my question. Good answers. I totally agree. Thanks!

Selam
.....wa'did we win?

A free vegetarian supper at my house! When can you come? Wink

Selam
on a Fast day. Wink

No, that won't work. I like to wash my veggie burgers down with a cold Guiness! Wink

Selam