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Author Topic: Should Christians be Vegetarians?  (Read 12314 times) Average Rating: 0
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« on: June 24, 2009, 06:36:31 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 07:26:40 PM »

I think if you grew up on, or  lived on a farm, you might think differently about eating meat! Wink
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 08:18:12 PM »

Maybe for half the year  Wink













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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 08:48:33 PM »

I believe that Christians (or anyone for that matter) should be vegetarians if that is what they decide is best for them. I also don't think that we who aren't vegetarians should ever take lightly the fact that the lives of our fellow creatures are sacrificed to keep us alive and healthy. Just my thoughts on the matter.
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 09:43:47 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam

We should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. Since the advent of the idea that Low Fat is healthy and the virtual abandonment of saturated fat from the American Diet, obesity has soared, Diabetes is rampent and the general health of Americans has markedly declined.

I would recommend reading up on the work of Weston Price at www.westonaprice.org. The Traditional diet of Humans is Milk and Meat. When Price studied isolated people who were not yet exposed to the refined foods of the 20th Century they were far healthier. Also, the replacement of Wholesome Raw Milk with denatured Pasteurized Milk has been a major loss for our health.. Read www.realmilk.com

Low carb,  fat and protien from the meat of pasture fed animals ( and fish) plus raw milk is the natural diet for people. Vegetables and fruit and grains are secondary and are best eaten raw and better fermented.   
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 09:45:55 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 10:22:25 PM »

We should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. Since the advent of the idea that Low Fat is healthy and the virtual abandonment of saturated fat from the American Diet, obesity has soared, Diabetes is rampent and the general health of Americans has markedly declined.
But I would hardly call this shift in dietary patterns the sole factor in the increased rates of obesity and diabetes and the general decline of our health.  What of the shift from physical labor to the more sedentary labor required by the much grown service industry?

I would recommend reading up on the work of Weston Price at www.westonaprice.org. The Traditional diet of Humans is Milk and Meat. When Price studied isolated people who were not yet exposed to the refined foods of the 20th Century they were far healthier. Also, the replacement of Wholesome Raw Milk with denatured Pasteurized Milk has been a major loss for our health.. Read www.realmilk.com

Low carb,  fat and protien from the meat of pasture fed animals ( and fish) plus raw milk is the natural diet for people. Vegetables and fruit and grains are secondary and are best eaten raw and better fermented.
Then why do we have molars designed for grinding, much less acidic digestive systems than the carnivores, and longer intestines more capable of digesting plant material if vegetables, fruits, and grains are more of a secondary food for us?

That said, I certainly agree that pasture fed animals are much better for eating than much of the artificially engineered meat that's sold in most supermarkets.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 10:25:09 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 10:32:41 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam

We should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. Since the advent of the idea that Low Fat is healthy and the virtual abandonment of saturated fat from the American Diet, obesity has soared, Diabetes is rampent and the general health of Americans has markedly declined.

I would recommend reading up on the work of Weston Price at www.westonaprice.org. The Traditional diet of Humans is Milk and Meat. When Price studied isolated people who were not yet exposed to the refined foods of the 20th Century they were far healthier. Also, the replacement of Wholesome Raw Milk with denatured Pasteurized Milk has been a major loss for our health.. Read www.realmilk.com

Low carb,  fat and protien from the meat of pasture fed animals ( and fish) plus raw milk is the natural diet for people. Vegetables and fruit and grains are secondary and are best eaten raw and better fermented.   

Thanks for those very interesting and educational points. Of course for me personally most saturated fat is poison. I have a hereditary problem with extremely high cholesterol that has resulted in me having had two heart attacks by the age of 34. I have always been an athlete and never have had a weight problem, but my arteries continue to clog up because my liver manufactures too much of the bad cholesterol (LDL is the bad I think). I used to love cheese and steak, but no more.

I would argue with your initial statement that we should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. If this were true, then why didn't God command Adam and Eve to eat meat in the Garden? If meat eating is the ideal diet, then the ideal state of man in a sinless paradise would have included eating meat don't you think?

Also, there is plenty of good saturated fat to be found from vegetative sources like macadamia nuts, almonds, avacado, and coconut.

Selam
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 10:38:28 PM »

Actually we need to take into account what ethnicity we are in regards to how we eat. If you are a certain ethnicity you should find out what your ancestors traditionally ate and try to eat similarly. I don't mean that "cave man diet" that is popular where you eat tons of meat. What I mean is that eating what your family ancestors would have traditionally ate is healthiest.  Scandinavians tend to need to eat more of certain types of fish whereas American Indians tend to need to avoid dairy nearly as a whole. There is no one healthy diet for every ethnic group. Asian cultures can do really well on alot of rice. But other ethnic groups tend to do poorly on a high rice diet. Let's say your family is from Greece- you would do well on a more Mediterranean diet. All this to say- "good foods" for a person depends upon what their ethnic background is. Where your family came from determines what they could eat for generations. And what you family did well eating for generations is what you will do well eating. So native foods to where your family is from are the best foods to eat. Certain cultures had to depend a great deal on meat- think Alaska, because they had to eat what was available to them. Certain other cultures depended almost exclusively on foraging plant foods with the occasional supplement of meat.
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 11:02:54 PM »

Oh, and for the record- nacho's, chili dogs, cheese steaks, cheetos, pizza (as we eat it today) and fried bacon wrapped cheese weren't ever native to anyone Wink

By native I mean foods that a commoner could regularly eat and have access to.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 11:08:27 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 11:10:03 PM »

But I would hardly call this shift in dietary patterns the sole factor in the increased rates of obesity and diabetes and the general decline of our health.  What of the shift from physical labor to the more sedentary labor required by the much grown service industry?

Then why do we have molars designed for grinding, much less acidic digestive systems than the carnivores, and longer intestines more capable of digesting plant material if vegetables, fruits, and grains are more of a secondary food for us?

We can speculate all we want about that but when we look at isolated populations eating traditional diets, they are far healthier. No cancer, straight teeth, robust.
 When people are introduced to the Western style diet they degenerate physically in just one generation. You can read Weston Price's book:"Nutrition and Physical Degeneration"  The Traditional Diet of people for thousands of years has been  high in saturated fats from meat, eggs and Milk  etc. , fermented foods and nothing refined Also such things as coconuts and coconut oil, which is very high in saturated fat.


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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 11:13:24 PM »

And food allergies can often be traced to your ethnic background. Most american indians can't do dairy. We didn't keep cows like the europeans. Although we did utilize bison, it was primarily for meat, not for dairy. (ever try to milk a buffalo? laugh ) Although bison and cows are similar they are not the same thing and that difference in my experience is a BIG one as far as my tolerance of eating the animal goes. We also didn't eat eggs really, it was not something we regularly had access to. The traditional diet in my history would have been camas, berries, salmon, venison, fiddleheads (fern) dandelion leaves, grapes, clover, mussels and the like.
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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2009, 11:22:15 PM »

I am a vegetarian (not a Vegan; I eat some fish). There are many reasons that I am a vegetarian, one being that I have suffered two heart attacks and need to live and eat as healthy as possible. But I also find good Christian and biblical arguments to support the vegetarian lifestyle. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Man was originally created to thrive on a non-meat diet. Meat eating involves death, and prior to the Fall there was no death.

2. After the flood meat eating was allowed because all the vegetation had been destroyed. But this was not the ideal diet for man.

3. The Levitical laws give explicit guidelines for what animals could be eaten and how they were to be killed and cooked. (Leviticus 11) During the time of the Law, animal sacrifices were made and portions of the meat were consumed by the people. But again, this was not the ideal diet and life under the Law was not the ideal spiritual condition for man.

4. God in His grace provided a rememdy for sin so that man could be restored to perfection and live eternally in an ideal spiritual condition. Since Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for sin (the spotless Lamb), then animals no longer have to be sacrificially slaughtered. Through faith in Him and the redemption of baptism, we can begin to be restored to the ideal spiritual state that Adam and Eve enjoyed prior to the Fall.

5. In this age of Grace killing animals is not necessary for our atonement, and eating meat is not necessary for our survival. We can (and I would argue should) try as much as possible to return to the lifestyle and diet of man in his pre-fallen state.

6. The eating of meat has moral and social ramifications as well as physical ramifications. The amount of feed and grain that it takes to feed one cow could sustain a thousand people, while the beef that the cow will provide might feed a hundred or so. (I can't give the exact stats on this, but I have read them and it is very interesting. I'm sure you can find these stats easily on line.) The point is that meat eating can be a selfish indulgence that actually contributes to the starvation of millions of people around the world. As Christians, we should consider our all of our actions and the effect that they have on our fellow man.

7. Although animals are not created in the image of God like human beings, they still deserve compassion and respect. Animals feel pain and suffer, and they should not have to do so unnecessarily. As Christians, we should never abuse animals or cause them to suffer simply to satisfy our indulgences. Chickens, cattle, and pigs often exist in tortuous conditions for the duration of their lives and are then killed in a merciless and painful manner. Even if we choose to eat meat, we should abhor and oppose the cruel and unnecessary treatment of these creatures. Let's remember that they are creatures, and therefore they point to the Creator.

8. As Christians we should promote peace and refrain from killing. I do not consider hunting or meat eating to be murder. I think that's ridiculous. But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself. I think that a vegetarian lifestyle will help to promote peace in society, although I would never advocate the legislation of such a diet. It's a personal choice that I encourage others to make themsleves.

OK, those are just a few brief points. I am not a Vegan, because quite frankly I think there is a demonic element to the Vegan movement. Peter Singer is a big Vegan proponent, and his rabid pro-abortion views are down right scary. I think Vegans sometimes respect animal life more than human life, and I can never get down with that. (DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to be a political topic or a debate about abortion. If you want to discuss abortion please go to another thread. I only mentioned abortion because it relates to the Vegan views of Peter Singer. I am certainly glad to discuss abortion, but I have been warned not to do so on a "non-political" thread and I do not want ot make that mistake again. Thank you for understanding.)

Oh yeah, some may wonder why I eat fish. Well, Jesus ate fish so I won't try to be holier than Him. Also, fish (no shellfish or catfish) is very good for one's health if it is properly prepared. And fish are not treated cruelly like the cattle, chickens, and pigs that are raised for massive consumption.

My Priest told me that according to Church Tradtion Jesus did in fact eat meat other than fish. So I am aware that Orthodoxy does not compel one to be a vegetarian. These are my own personal opinions, and I think they in no way contradict Orthodox teaching. We must also remember that animals in Jesus' day were raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. I don't think Our Lord would condone how these creatures are being unecessarily brutalized today.

Let me know what you guys think.

Selam

We should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. Since the advent of the idea that Low Fat is healthy and the virtual abandonment of saturated fat from the American Diet, obesity has soared, Diabetes is rampent and the general health of Americans has markedly declined.

I would recommend reading up on the work of Weston Price at www.westonaprice.org. The Traditional diet of Humans is Milk and Meat. When Price studied isolated people who were not yet exposed to the refined foods of the 20th Century they were far healthier. Also, the replacement of Wholesome Raw Milk with denatured Pasteurized Milk has been a major loss for our health.. Read www.realmilk.com

Low carb,  fat and protien from the meat of pasture fed animals ( and fish) plus raw milk is the natural diet for people. Vegetables and fruit and grains are secondary and are best eaten raw and better fermented.   

Thanks for those very interesting and educational points. Of course for me personally most saturated fat is poison. I have a hereditary problem with extremely high cholesterol that has resulted in me having had two heart attacks by the age of 34. I have always been an athlete and never have had a weight problem, but my arteries continue to clog up because my liver manufactures too much of the bad cholesterol (LDL is the bad I think). I used to love cheese and steak, but no more.

I would argue with your initial statement that we should not be vegetarians if we want to live a long and healthy life. If this were true, then why didn't God command Adam and Eve to eat meat in the Garden? If meat eating is the ideal diet, then the ideal state of man in a sinless paradise would have included eating meat don't you think?

Also, there is plenty of good saturated fat to be found from vegetative sources like macadamia nuts, almonds, avacado, and coconut.

Selam

Look.. I'm not a Doctor, I only play one on the Internet Smiley but you should look into the issue of Cholesterol as the culprit for heart disease. It probably isn't . Pick up a copy of "Traditional Foods are your best Medicine" by Ron Schmid and also "Eat Fat to Lose Fat" by Sally Fallon.

The fact is, the people who live the longest in our society today are women with very high cholesterol. The death rate goes up only very slightly in men with Cholesterol in excess of 300. We have been sold a bill of goods by  Agra Business and Big Pharma. IMHO
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2009, 11:26:19 PM »

Most american indians can't do dairy

Like many people, they cant tolerate Pasteurized Dairy. They can digest natural Raw Milk. All of the enzymes that help digestion are destroyed when you heat the milk to Pasteurize it.

Read: "The Untold Story of Milk" by Dr. Ron Schmid
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2009, 11:34:44 PM »

^Sorry your logic is completely off. NO we natives DON'T digest dairy period. Raw or pasturized, it doesn't matter. In fact it has been proven that as much as 76% of natives tested are positive for lactose intolerance. Do you have any experience in the cultural anthropological study of foods? Europeans do quite well with dairy on the whole. But it has actually also been proven that asian and african peoples do poorly on european cattle based dairy as well as us natives to america. (which is what it typically means when you say "dairy"=cow) There is a native breed of cattle in certain areas of Africa that is well tolerated on the whole. And goat based dairy can be well tolerated in certain ethnic groups where goats are a part of the society. But cow based dairy- raw or not- is not something every ethnic group can eat. And chicken eggs on the whole are not something every ethnic group can eat as well.

In fact the sickest I and my brothers have ever been from dairy is when our white mother and white step father tried to switch us to all raw dairy. Raw it is even worse. Our parents did well, we became extremely sick. I can't imagine why anyone would want to eat/consume raw dairy. It tastes like cow. I hate milk and milk products on the whole. I only eat dairy while I am pregnant. Otherwise I can't stomach it. And when I am breastfeeding I can't have even minute traces of dairy or my babies have a horrible colic reaction. Between my husband and I our kids are about half american indian. The only dairy my kids really get on a regular basis is goat, bison and whatever I make before they are weaned laugh

This is a website that compiles a great deal of books on the anthropological study of diet.

http://lilt.ilstu.edu/rtdirks/
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2009, 11:36:40 PM »

How do you explain the high level of physical fitness of groups which have no exposure to meat, and very little to milk?  How 'bout poor Greek villagers, who would even be lucky to get fish?  How about 1,800 years of Christian vegetarian monasticism?

The monastic answer to "Should Christians be vegetarians?" is "Yes."  The rest of the Church is not required to do so.
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 11:48:50 PM »

I always thought that vegetarianism is usually healthier, though there are several types of vegetarians; lacto-ovo vegetarians for example.  At any rate, if only broccoli tasted like bacon cheeseburgers and spinach like peach cobbler, I'd be one healthy feller.  Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 12:07:00 AM »

Soy is another food that is really well tolerated by certain ethnic groups and not at all by others.
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 12:31:12 AM »

From what I recall they had to lessen the fasting guidelines for orthodox in Alaska early on because of the scarcity of food to eat. Essentially food other than meat is pretty rare up there because of the land they can't grow much food and shipping it in is pretty costly. I wish I could recall the book reference. Does anyone know it? Now maintaining fasting guidelines can be done pretty easily in most of Alaska. But the Probilof alaskans in particular really had to rely upon meat as they lived in a tundra type enviroment as well as the fact that they were on islands and couldn't trade with more interior alaskans for food and resources.
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 12:33:02 AM »

I am enjoying these responses. Thank you. But how about some more input on the moral and social implications of vegetarianism vs meat eating. And what about the Biblical argument that since Christ was the final sacrifice then animals no longer need to die? Etc...

Selam
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 12:37:10 AM »

When you consume meat you aren't sacrificing the animal so that line of thought doesn't apply.

Have you ever read Pollution and the Death of Man by Francis Schaeffer? (Frank's dad). I really enjoyed that book.

We should respect animals as co-creation. But animals are without souls, they have no nous. So to anthropomorphize them is just silly and wrong
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 12:52:00 AM »

When you consume meat you aren't sacrificing the animal so that line of thought doesn't apply.

Have you ever read Pollution and the Death of Man by Francis Schaeffer? (Frank's dad). I really enjoyed that book.

We should respect animals as co-creation. But animals are without souls, they have no nous. So to anthropomorphize them is just silly and wrong

I made it clear in my original post that I do not place animals on the same level as human beings. Meat eating was not God's original plan for man. He allowed Noah and his family to eat meat because the flood had temporarily destroyed all vegetation. Under the Law animal sacrifices were required to atone for sin. The earth is full of vegetation now. Christ has completed all the sacrifice necessary for our salvation. Thus, why do we need to eat meat?

Selam
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 12:54:58 AM »

I am enjoying these responses. Thank you. But how about some more input on the moral and social implications of vegetarianism vs meat eating. And what about the Biblical argument that since Christ was the final sacrifice then animals no longer need to die? Etc...

Selam

What of Apostle Peter's vision in Acts 11?

“I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6 When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven.
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 12:55:21 AM »

The first animal sacrifice was in the garden of Eden not after the landing of the ark- Genesis chapter 3 and the garments of skin that God gave Adam and Eve.
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 12:58:57 AM »

The first animal sacrifice was in the garden of Eden not after the landing of the ark- Genesis chapter 3 and the garments of skin that God gave Adam and Eve.

That was after the Fall, and it wasn't a theological sacrifice of atonement.

Selam
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2009, 01:04:07 AM »

I am enjoying these responses. Thank you. But how about some more input on the moral and social implications of vegetarianism vs meat eating. And what about the Biblical argument that since Christ was the final sacrifice then animals no longer need to die? Etc...

Selam

What of Apostle Peter's vision in Acts 11?

“I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6 When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven.

Good question. The context makes it clear that this is an analogy referring to the acceptance of Gentiles into the New Covenant. The Gentiles were formerly considered "unclean," but now they are to be viewed as inheritors of the grace of God as well as the Jews.

As far as the notion that all things are clean... Would you eat a cockroach? Would you eat meat with maggots coming out of it? Sorry to be so gross, but it makes my point. It is silly to think that all animals and creatures are literally clean and fit to eat.

Selam
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2009, 01:07:40 AM »

^Actually insects are the traditional diet in many countries. They are quite nutritious. I wouldn't eat meat with maggots in it because that means that the meat is spoiled. But the maggots are actually OK to eat if you clean them.
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2009, 01:25:58 AM »

^Actually insects are the traditional diet in many countries. They are quite nutritious. I wouldn't eat meat with maggots in it because that means that the meat is spoiled. But the maggots are actually OK to eat if you clean them.

You are correct. The point is the same though; we obviously don't view all things as being literally clean.

Selam
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2009, 01:32:54 AM »

What of the ancient custom in many, many Christian cultures, of eating meat, especially lamb, at Easter, as a symbol of the Lamb of God who was our sacrifice?
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2009, 01:37:52 AM »

^Actually insects are the traditional diet in many countries. They are quite nutritious. I wouldn't eat meat with maggots in it because that means that the meat is spoiled. But the maggots are actually OK to eat if you clean them.

You are correct. The point is the same though; we obviously don't view all things as being literally clean.

Selam

No your point is shattered. All things are clean, but not all things are acceptable to every persons palate and sensibilities.
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2009, 01:54:06 AM »

^Actually insects are the traditional diet in many countries. They are quite nutritious. I wouldn't eat meat with maggots in it because that means that the meat is spoiled. But the maggots are actually OK to eat if you clean them.

You are correct. The point is the same though; we obviously don't view all things as being literally clean.

Selam

No your point is shattered. All things are clean, but not all things are acceptable to every persons palate and sensibilities.

Nice try, but it ain't workin'. Show me a person who is immune to triginosis and salmonella (spelling?) and I may reconsider that one aspect of my entire argument.

Selam

(I'm sure you will have to have the final word Quinalt, so go ahead. I've got to go to sleep now. God bless you my friend. And as always, PEACE.)
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2009, 02:10:53 AM »

Salmonella isn't a food Cheesy And it is actually more common to find that in particular on vegetables like alfalfa sprouts.

Scripture doesn't say we don't have to follow hygienic rules.
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2009, 02:11:57 AM »

Woo Hoo!  It's another...........

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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2009, 02:22:21 AM »

I believe that Christians (or anyone for that matter) should be vegetarians if that is what they decide is best for them. I also don't think that we who aren't vegetarians should ever take lightly the fact that the lives of our fellow creatures are sacrificed to keep us alive and healthy. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Riddikulus this is a beautiful sentiment. Actually in germany the profession of a hunter was actually a very spiritual role, they didn't let anyone just become a hunter you had to train under a experienced guide that taught you a love for nature and prayerful life to God thanking him for allowing him to sustain us and thanking him for allowing the animal to be with us. Besides being a tasty alcoholic beverage this is what Jagermeister was, Master Hunter was the name of a trained hunter.
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2009, 02:24:31 AM »

Hunters in native cultures were highly revered as well. My kids know where all meat comes from and we have always made a point of teaching them to be thankful for the animal that died so that we could eat. So when we are at the family farm part of the zoo we tick off alot of parents and get alot of funny looks; "Mommy, is that food? Do people eat that?"

And I won't even tell you what happened when we ended up being there when they were throwing the meal into the wolf display. Frozen bunnies! laugh My kids were not traumatized, but I can't say the same for the other kids that were there!

The goal our family has is to have my husband bag a deer or two a year, and fish with the kids to sustain us for the most part each year in addition to some chicken and other staples. I would vastly prefer that we catch and kill our own food, so would my husband. But he has been so busy being a soldier we just haven't had the ability.
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« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2009, 02:27:30 AM »

Quote
But I do know that since I have become a vegetarian I have been less easily agitated and felt more at peace with myself.

Gebre- you do make a point about feeling less aggressive though. There are a host of hormones in meat and in dairy. And when you are away from those hormones you actually do feel a big difference. We mess with meat too much in America.


I should add- I was a hardcore VEGAN for years. No meat, leather or anything that came from an animal in anyway shape or form. It is hard to maintain and ultimately it was too unhealthy for me to keep up. I couldn't now with breastfeeding and having all these babies. I have to have meat proteins or my liver starts to fail.

While breastfeeding I can't have;
Cow's milk (and other milk products, including butter, whey and various milk proteins)
Onion
Chocolate
Garlic
Eggs
Peanuts
Walnuts
Citrus fruits
Corn
Soy
Tomatoes
Beet greens
Bok choy
Spinach (very allergic)
Alfalfa (very allergic)
Beets (very allergic)
Carrots (very allergic)
Broccoli
Brussels sprouts
Cabbage
Cauliflower
Chinese cabbage
Collard greens
Garden cress
Horseradish
Kale
Kohlrabi
Mustard greens
Radishes
Rutabaga
Swiss chard
Turnips


So without meat I am pretty limited to what I can actually eat since you aren't supposed to eat more than 1-2 servings of fish a week in my area.
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« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2009, 02:38:19 AM »

Woo Hoo!  It's another...........



I don't like to think of it that way. I'm simply trying to learn. I learn best by putting forth my ideas and hoping that they will be challenged and tested. We should all be trying to grow and learn from one another. Unfortunately not everyone on this board is in it for the same goal of mutual edification. Sadly, some people are only concerned about winning or losing an argument. I'm sure that I can be guilty of this at times myself. I think that what's most important in these discussions and debates is the tone. Condescension, sarcasm, and disparaging remarks are never productive. I think we can profoundly disagree with one another without insulting each other. I'm sure that I have lapsed in this regard from time to time. It can be difficult to remain on the high road when your sincere desire for truth and knowledge is met with ridicule and derision. So let's all try to do better. After all, we supposedly serve the same Lord.

Selam
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« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2009, 02:45:06 AM »

I believe that Christians (or anyone for that matter) should be vegetarians if that is what they decide is best for them. I also don't think that we who aren't vegetarians should ever take lightly the fact that the lives of our fellow creatures are sacrificed to keep us alive and healthy. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Riddikulus this is a beautiful sentiment. Actually in germany the profession of a hunter was actually a very spiritual role, they didn't let anyone just become a hunter you had to train under a experienced guide that taught you a love for nature and prayerful life to God thanking him for allowing him to sustain us and thanking him for allowing the animal to be with us. Besides being a tasty alcoholic beverage this is what Jagermeister was, Master Hunter was the name of a trained hunter.

I always remember the opening scene from the film, "The Last of the Mohicans". The primary characters are in the midst of a hunt and they eventually kill a deer for food. The animal is killed with a clean shot and dies without needless suffering. As the deer dies, the primary characters pay their respects to the animal for its life, forteited so that they may live. I don't know how true to history that scene was, but to me it amplifies the point that one can love and respect animals and nature, whilst, at the same time be forced to eat them for survival. I believe that because we don't need to hunt for our food the same way, we can tend to get de-sensitized to the display shelves in supermarket refrigerators. I just don't feel that we should lose sight of the fact that meat isn't produced in a factory; its presense on our table involves a forfeited life.


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« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2009, 03:18:25 AM »

While I do not hunt (I'm not a very good shot, and there's not much worth hunting in my neck of the woods anyway), I'm a very keen fisherman, and eat whatever I catch (as long as it's not undersize or noxious or otherwise inedible). Whatever must be returned to the water is done so with every effort to not injure or damage the fish. And I do eat meat, lenten periods excepted, of course.  angel

With all the palaver about "meat is bad, fish is good" (we already know that eating fish is OK from the Orthodox perspective because some of the apostles were fishermen, and Christ Himself ate fish, and used fish in several miracles), I'm yet to be convinced (outside of lenten considerations) that there is any moral or ethical difference between eating fish, and eating meat. Like with so many scripture passages, there is more than one meaning, which the Fathers themselves nutted out many centuries ago. The passage I quoted from Acts indeed refers to the acceptance of the Gentiles as children of God, but it also has a more literal meaning: The old Levitical restrictions have now been done away with, and all may eat of whatever plant or critter without fear or shame.

One can choose to be vegetarian - that's a personal decision. But to try to argue that eating meat or animal products goes contrary to the Orthodox faith is, I'm afraid, wide of the mark. The notion may be honorable in intent, but it is as doctrinally futile as the efforts of the Temperance movements of the 19th and 20th centuries, which argued for an absolute prohibition of the consumption of alcohol based on a rather selective interpretation of scripture.
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« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2009, 03:59:57 AM »

I think if you grew up on, or  lived on a farm, you might think differently about eating meat! Wink
Employees of Jack in the Box say something similar  Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2009, 06:11:18 AM »


As far as the notion that all things are clean... Would you eat a cockroach? Would you eat meat with maggots coming out of it? Sorry to be so gross, but it makes my point. It is silly to think that all animals and creatures are literally clean and fit to eat.

Selam

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« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2009, 06:21:26 AM »

Some of you out there have waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands!
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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2009, 08:57:47 AM »

From what I know, monks in Mount Athos eat fish only once a week and that's it, no meat. It's a tribute/tradition related to Man's diet before the Fall.

I can't eat any meat either. Not after watching Earthlings. That documentary was a real slap.
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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2009, 09:37:45 AM »

One can choose to be vegetarian - that's a personal decision. But to try to argue that eating meat or animal products goes contrary to the Orthodox faith is, I'm afraid, wide of the mark. The notion may be honorable in intent, but it is as doctrinally futile as the efforts of the Temperance movements of the 19th and 20th centuries, which argued for an absolute prohibition of the consumption of alcohol based on a rather selective interpretation of scripture.

I don't know if I would argue that eating meat is against the faith (why would we have a Meatfare Sunday?), but I would argue from the monastic witness that it's a practice that should be avoided if it can be done.

From what I know, monks in Mount Athos eat fish only once a week and that's it, no meat. It's a tribute/tradition related to Man's diet before the Fall.

I think this is the crux of my point: it's not against Orthodox tradition to eat animal products, but, like continuous prayer, self-sacrifice/martyrdom, poverty, etc. it is a "higher way" for those who are able to endure it.
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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2009, 09:59:14 AM »

Surprised no one has mentioned this, so figured I might as well:

The Early Church did not allow Christians to be vegetarians for any reason other than asceticism. Those who refused to eat meat as a general matter of principal -- since, by so doing, they denied the goodness of God's creation -- were actually anathematized.

Of course, a lot of that had to do with philosophical/theological trends in the Hellenistic world (e.g. Eustathianism, Manicheanism, etc.). Nonetheless, here are two relevant canons:

From the Holy Apostles (51)

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If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone at all on the sacerdotal list, abstains from marriage, or meat, or wine, not as a matter of mortification, but out of an abhorrence thereof, forgetting that all things are exceedingly good, and that God made man male and female, and blasphemously misrepresenting God’s work of creation, either let him mend his ways or let him be deposed from office and expelled from the Church. Let a layman be treated similarly.

From the Holy Apostles (53)

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If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, on the days of feasts will not partake of meat and wine, because he loathes these things, and not on account of asceticism, let him be deposed from office, on the ground that he has his own conscience seared and has become a cause of scandal to many.

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Michael L
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« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2009, 11:34:49 AM »

When you consume meat you aren't sacrificing the animal so that line of thought doesn't apply.

Have you ever read Pollution and the Death of Man by Francis Schaeffer? (Frank's dad). I really enjoyed that book.

We should respect animals as co-creation. But animals are without souls, they have no nous. So to anthropomorphize them is just silly and wrong

It is my understanding that While animals do have a "nous" or spirit they do posses a soul. Bishop Kallistos Ware write about this on page 48 of his book The Orthodox Way. Also see the teaching of St. Theophan the Recluse letter 9 of The Spiritual Life and How to be Attuned to It.

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Just what is the spirit? It is that force which God breathed into man when He created him. The earth bore all species of earthly creatures by God's command. From the earth also came every kind of living creatures soul. The human soul, although it resembles the animal soul in its lowest part, in incomparably superior to it in its highest part. That it is this way in man is because of it's bonding with the soul. The spirit, breathed by God, combined with it and raised it far above every nonhuman soul. That is why we note within ourselves, in addition to what we see in the animals, that which is peculiar to the spiritualized soul of man, and even higher, that which is peculiar only to the spirit.
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