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Author Topic: OCA to end relations with TEC, forge ties with ACNA  (Read 2391 times) Average Rating: 0
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Keble
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« on: June 24, 2009, 02:32:58 PM »

From The Living Church:
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His Beatitude, the Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) announced recently that his church has ended its ecumenical relations with The Episcopal Church, and will establish instead formal ecumenical relations with the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA).
 
Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA made the announcement June 24 at a plenary session of the ACNA’s founding convocation at St Vincent’s Cathedral, Bedford, Texas.
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cobweb
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 02:54:59 PM »

I saw his speech today.  He didn't pull any punches.
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 04:44:23 PM »

Excellent! Many years to +Jonah!
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 05:14:48 PM »

Can you give us a link to that speech?
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Aristobolus
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 08:59:50 PM »

Does the ACNA embraces ordination of females to the priesthood?  If so, what are the implications for its spiritual health?  The ECUSA began ordaining women in the seventies, and look at where they are some thirty years later!  It is one thing to speak to such groups if invited; it is another thing to enter into "ecumenical dialogue" on an ongoing fashion.  The latter is often more a prescription for watering down ones own belief than it is for effecting positive, lasting theosis for the heretical group one is "dialoging" with.
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cobweb
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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 09:04:33 PM »

Does the ACNA embraces ordination of females to the priesthood?  If so, what are the implications for its spiritual health?  The ECUSA began ordaining women in the seventies, and look at where they are some thirty years later!  It is one thing to speak to such groups if invited; it is another thing to enter into "ecumenical dialogue" on an ongoing fashion.  The latter is often more a prescription for watering down ones own belief than it is for effecting positive, lasting theosis for the heretical group one is "dialoging" with.

Met. Jonah told them that would be one of the things (there were several) that would have to change if we were to be in communion with them.  No women in the presbyterate or episcopate.  Pretty much he told them what they had to do to become Orthodox en masse. 
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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 09:16:19 PM »

More:

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10693

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/06/metropolitan-jonah-goodbye-tec.html
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 10:47:53 PM »

Metropolitan Jonah's words were right on, but my above statement remains.  It is one thing to address an assembly of heretics (I use that strong word for a reason.  If they from the beginning of their reaction againts liberal Anglicanism still retain women piests, then the seed they are planting is unhealthy from the start); it is another to enter into "dialogue".  Dare I say very litte fruit has come from  "dialogue" with such groups.  Normally the most successful efforts of reaching out come from simply being faithful to praying the Offices, serving Liturgies, and witnessing to the faith in everyday conversation.  Metropolitan Jonah effectively did the latter this very day.  May these Anglicans take to heart the good message given them, and truly come home.
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 06:21:21 AM »


Quote
The ordination of women to the Presbyterate and their consecration as Bishops has to end if intercommunion is to occur.

Is OCA planning to restore female Deaconate?
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 07:22:50 AM »

Does the ACNA embraces ordination of females to the priesthood? 

Yes.

Article VIII.2 of the Constitution of the ACNA reads:

"The Province shall make no canon abridging the authority of any member dioceses, clusters or networks (whether regional or affinity-based) and those dioceses banded together as jurisdictions with respect to its practice regarding the ordination of women to the diaconate or presbyterate."
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2009, 09:03:49 AM »


Quote
The ordination of women to the Presbyterate and their consecration as Bishops has to end if intercommunion is to occur.

Is OCA planning to restore female Deaconate?

Hasn't the church in Greece already done that?

Here's the latest, I found, on a female clergy in the ACNA.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-06-21-anglicans_N.htm

To quote from the above article:  "Bishops will have the final say in the choice of future bishops. Only men, and no gays, will be accepted.

Duncan says the church may continue to ordain women as deacons and priests. But pushing forward to name them as bishops, he says, is seen by the rest of the Anglican Communion as "a sad and arrogant American approach. The bishop is the symbol of the diocese and putting someone other dioceses do not recognize as capable of holding the office in the post is divisive in the international church.""

« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 09:16:14 AM by monkvasyl » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2009, 09:15:35 AM »


Quote
The ordination of women to the Presbyterate and their consecration as Bishops has to end if intercommunion is to occur.

Is OCA planning to restore female Deaconate?

Hasn't the church in Greece already done that?

It would be news to me if they had in any thoroughgoing way.  Of course, as I understand it St. Nektarios ordained a deaconess to serve in a women's monastery shortly before he reposed, so the Church of Greece had at least one in the last century.
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2009, 09:17:50 AM »


Quote
The ordination of women to the Presbyterate and their consecration as Bishops has to end if intercommunion is to occur.

Is OCA planning to restore female Deaconate?

Hasn't the church in Greece already done that?

It would be news to me if they had in any thoroughgoing way.  Of course, as I understand it St. Nektarios ordained a deaconess to serve in a women's monastery shortly before he reposed, so the Church of Greece had at least one in the last century.

And if my memory doesn't fail me, didn't St. Nektarios get into some trouble for doing that.
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2009, 09:42:39 AM »

Quote
Metropolitan Jonah named several issues that he said the two churches needed to "face head on" and resolve before they can achieve full communion. Among the most volatile on his list were the Calvinist theology taught by many evangelical Anglicans and the ordination of women as priests, which the new church allows each of its dioceses to accept or reject.

"Calvinism is a condemned heresy," he said, to a smattering of applause from some Anglo-Catholics in the new church.

"For ... intercommunion of the Anglican Church and the Orthodox Church, the issue of ordination of women needs to be resolved," he said, again to applause from many of the same people.

"I believe women have a critical role to play in the church, but I do not believe it is in the [priesthood or as bishops]," he said. "Forgive me if this offends you." He called for an effort to "creatively come together to find the right context for women's ministry in the church."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09176/979788-84.stm#ixzz0JRuLyOQ7&D


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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 10:44:57 AM »

Of ACNA's four real dioceses, Pittsburgh ordains women; San Joaquin, Fort Worth, and Quincy do not. They really cannot operate without an "agree to disagree" arrangement such as described above.

My reading of this is that it's largely a political maneuver on both sides. Jonah gives ECUSA a slap-down, and ACNA gets an endorsement of its legitimacy.

And in the irony department: if there's anyone here who has the option of going home, it's Jonah, the ex-Episcopalian.
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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 10:48:35 AM »


Of course, as I understand it St. Nektarios ordained a deaconess to serve in a women's monastery shortly before he reposed, so the Church of Greece had at least one in the last century.

Restoration of Deaconesses in the Greek Orthodox Church

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=2182957&service=10

A decision of the Church of Greece (in 2004?)  "The church High Clergy [the bishops of the Church of Greece] also re-examined the matter of the ordination of deaconesses, a practice common in the Church during the 4th and 5th centuries which was later faded away. The synod decided that bishops could decide at their own discretion to ordain certain high-ranking nuns if no priest was available, for example in isolated monasteries. It was stressed that the role of deaconesses should be social, for example the granting of last rites to the sick. According to the Archbishop of Peristeri, deaconesses should "play a role in society and not in the monastery".
--------------------

This site may be of interest too....
The Historical Orthodox Deaconess

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/deaconess/
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 10:53:17 AM »


It would be news to me if they had in any thoroughgoing way.  Of course, as I understand it St. Nektarios ordained a deaconess to serve in a women's monastery shortly before he reposed, so the Church of Greece had at least one in the last century.

And if my memory doesn't fail me, didn't St. Nektarios get into some trouble for doing that.

In a letter to Athens Saint Nektarios says that he did not ordain the nuns
concerned as deacons but as subdeacons.  I'll see if I can hunt the letter
out.

Hwever, in the meantime, here is an account of one of Saint Nektarios'
ordinations of a nun.

http://old.orthodoxnews.org/163/Ordination.htm


I wish to respond to the letter of Mr. Gregory Orloff regarding the
ordination of women to the diaconate, particularly by Saint Nektarios in the
early twentieth century.  Mr. Orloff accurately quoted a letter of Saint
Nektarios to Theoklitos, Archbishop of Athens, in which Nektarios described
the nuns he had ordained as "subdeaconesses : [who] are primarily sextons at
the sanctuary" caring for the altar vessels and cloths.  Furthermore, the
saint described the nuns' vestments as "made according to the holy vestments
that the readers of the city churches wear".

However, Saint Nektarios' description to Archbishop Theoklitos did not
correspond to the reality of the ordination he performed.  Professor
Evangelos Theodorou of the University of Athens, who has been the leading
expert on the female diaconate since his doctoral work in the 1950's,
described the actual ordination of the first nun (who later became abbess)
by Saint Nektarios, on Pentecost Sunday in 1911, as follows:


        "THE ORDINATION TOOK PLACE during the Divine Liturgy with the laying
on of hands, following the same order of prayers as the ordination of the
deacon, including the prayer of the bishop saying aloud, "the Divine  Grace
:" [he theia charis].  The woman who was ordained wore a sticharion (alb) to
about the waist, but not reaching the feet, with the diaconal orarion
(stole) and diaconal epimanikia (cuffs).  :  Because certain people were
scandalized with her 'ordination,' St. Nektarios gave an explanation to the
then Archbishop of Athens, Theoklitos, emphasizing that this particular
appointment perhaps had more characteristics similar to that of the
subdeacon and that this ministry was needed by the monastery, especially
during the absence of ordained clergymen."

(Evangelos Theodorou, He "cheirotonia" e "cheirothesia" ton diakonisson
(Athens, 1954), 96; English translation in Kyriaki Karidoyanes FitzGerald,
Women Deacons in the Orthodox Church: Called to Holiness and Ministry
(Brookline, Mass.: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1998), 151-2.)

There are several important points to note relative to Theodorou's
description of the actual rite of ordination celebrated by Saint Nektarios:

1)     Only ordinations to the major orders of clergy (deacon, presbyter,
bishop) occur during the Divine Liturgy; ordinations to minor orders of
clergy, including subdeacon and reader, occur outside the context of the
liturgy (subdeacons are usually ordained just prior to the liturgy, readers
today in the Greek rite are often ordained following vespers or the
liturgy).  Had Saint Nektarios truly been ordaining the nun as a
subdeaconess, he would not have done the ordination during the Divine
Liturgy.

2)   Saint Nektarios followed the ordination rite of the male deacon,
including the use of the prayer beginning "The divine grace," which is
another typical feature of ordination to major orders.  In fact, it is
likely that he used the ordination rite found in Byzantine-era euchologia,
which follows the order for the ordination of a male deacon, with only a
couple of minor differences in rubrics and with prayers that are tailored to
the female diaconate (e.g., a reference to Phoebe, the female deacon
mentioned in Romans 16:1, in the second consecration prayer for the female
deacon).

3)   Saint Nektarios vested the deaconess with diaconal clothing (most
notably the orarion, or diaconal stole), not the exorason traditionally worn
by readers (chanters) in the modern Church of Greece, as he stated in his
letter.  Readers do not wear the orarion; only deacons and subdeacons do.

It should also be noted that Saint Nektarios' rationale for ordaining the
nun is not terribly convincing since nuns have cared for their monastic
churches, including the altar area, since Byzantine times, usually without
ordination.  One need only read the typika (monastic rules) of several
Byzantine women's monasteries to see implicit confirmation of this.  Men,
except for a priest to celebrate liturgy, were traditionally excluded from
women's monasteries.  ...

In sum, then, Professor Theodorou has undoubtedly surmised correctly that
Saint Nektarios deliberately downplayed the significance of the ordination
he celebrated in order to avoid scandal for those unfamiliar with the
historical female diaconate.  It is clear from the description of the
ordination itself that it was an ordination to the diaconate, not the
subdiaconate.

Fr Ambrose
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Should this topic be split off into another thread or is there a thread we can resurrect?

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cobweb
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 11:03:03 AM »

I've seen nuns act as acolytes in a monastery (when there were no men to serve).  It wasn't a permanent altar with an iconostasis or anything though.  Pretty much she just carried a candle and put incense in the censor.

No ordination though.  I don't see the need.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 11:04:37 AM by cobweb » Logged
pensateomnia
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 11:18:24 AM »

It would be news to me if they had in any thoroughgoing way.  Of course, as I understand it St. Nektarios ordained a deaconess to serve in a women's monastery shortly before he reposed, so the Church of Greece had at least one in the last century.

It has been approved for several years for nuns in remote monasteries. It seems the ordination rite is left up to the discretion of the Bishop, but here's a rite based on old euchologia: http://www.anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm

I've seen nuns act as acolytes in a monastery (when there were no men to serve).  It wasn't a permanent altar with an iconostasis or anything though.  Pretty much she just carried a candle and put incense in the censor.

That happens in every convent I have been to. Nuns are the only ones there, so they serve in the altar, with the Bishop's blessing.
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 06:27:00 PM »

The Metropolitan's speech: http://embedr.com/playlist/acna-assembly
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