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Author Topic: KGB Spy and Russian Orthodox Church  (Read 4182 times) Average Rating: 0
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TinaG
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« on: June 22, 2009, 11:21:58 AM »

Can anyone tell me what their opinion is of this former spy and his allegations that the Russian Orthodox Church has become a front for FSB spying in America?  I suspect the extreme right bent of this web site, and only found the article when it popped up on my Google News alert for searches on the "Orthodox Church".

http://www.rightsidenews.com/200906215193/homeland-security/putins-spies-in-america.html

I am trying to reconcile this idea of the new Russia with the old Cold War Soviet Union. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 11:22:50 AM by TinaG » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2009, 11:56:03 AM »

What is there even worth getting from America if this is true? A nation that imports food from China & sells its own farm land to build big low quality discount stores , extinct industry, chicken little eco policies, crime ridden towns (of which the scale  probably surpasses low intensity conflict that the US once used in the 3rd world) etc...?
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2009, 12:06:32 PM »

According the article, it looks like this man left the KGB way before ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarch united. How would he know what is going on now?

Also, as anti-communist as ROCOR has always been, I could not see this happening.
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 12:12:32 PM »

I am somewhat familiar with the main actors in this. First, Front Page is very conservative but is not extremely so. Jamie Glazov is Frontpage Magazine's editor. He holds a Ph.D. in History with a specialty in Russian, U.S. and Canadian foreign policy. He is the author of Canadian Policy Toward Khrushchev’s Soviet Union and is the co-editor (with David Horowitz) of The Hate America Left. He edited and wrote the introduction to David Horowitz’s Left Illusions. His new book is United in Hate: The Left's Romance with Tyranny and Terror.

Second, the KGB man who is the source for the allegation is Konstantin Preobrazhenskiy, a former KGB agent who has become one of the KGB's harshest critics. He is the author of seven books about the KGB and Japan. His new book is KGB/FSB's New Trojan Horse: Americans of Russian Descent.

I cannot say that Mr. Preobrazhenskiy is 100% correct, particularly in his allegations regarding the penetration of the MP and ROCOR by the Russian security apparatus. It does not surprise me that many "insiders" who write such books (left and right) are prone to exaggerate or tell only one side of the story. Unfortunately, controversy is what sells in today's market. Also, Mr. Preobrazhenskiy's context is the KGB--its culture, history, myths and prejudices. He is bound to suspect the worst of Mr. Putin's "new" Russia. He is not alone in the overall conclusion that we may be back to the age-old imperial state control modality. I hope that the Russian  Church resists the state's encroachment as much as possible. Nonetheless, past history certainly indicates that some encroachment will indeed happen, if it has not happened already.

I should say that state-church accommodations are nothing new in the history of the Church (and not only the Orthodox Church). The important thing is that it continues today except in a few countries, mostly in the Anglophone countries (GB, USA, Australia, and Canada come to mind). I am sure it is purely coincidental that these countries also constitute the "diaspora."
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 12:14:14 PM by Second Chance » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 12:50:54 PM »

What is there even worth getting from America if this is true? A nation that imports food from China & sells its own farm land to build big low quality discount stores , extinct industry, chicken little eco policies, crime ridden towns (of which the scale  probably surpasses low intensity conflict that the US once used in the 3rd world) etc...?

While I certainly agree with you to some extent Recent Convert, I hope you're not thinking of Russia as a better alternative.  I'm pretty sure you can find all of these problems and then some in present day Russia.
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 01:00:26 PM »

What is there even worth getting from America if this is true? A nation that imports food from China & sells its own farm land to build big low quality discount stores , extinct industry, chicken little eco policies, crime ridden towns (of which the scale  probably surpasses low intensity conflict that the US once used in the 3rd world) etc...?

While I certainly agree with you to some extent Recent Convert, I hope you're not thinking of Russia as a better alternative.  I'm pretty sure you can find all of these problems and then some in present day Russia.
No, I do not know Russia nor was I seeing it as any alternative (although I wish Russia well of course). I actually kind of wish I had kept my cynicism to myself but hey, there it is. Forgive my tone, it was not directed at anyone of course but it was unpleasant & not constructive. Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 01:25:35 PM »

While I certainly agree with you to some extent Recent Convert, I hope you're not thinking of Russia as a better alternative.  I'm pretty sure you can find all of these problems and then some in present day Russia.
[/quote]No, I do not know Russia nor was I seeing it as any alternative (although I wish Russia well of course). I actually kind of wish I had kept my cynicism to myself but hey, there it is. Forgive my tone, it was not directed at anyone of course but it was unpleasant & not constructive. Lord, have mercy.
[/quote]

If only you knew you are apologizing without need to the Queen of Cynicism.  I do not think your tone was unpleasant at all and your comment was certainly beneficial in pointing out the obvious problems this country has.  I've been reading a lot of Wendell Berry lately and I feel there's a big emptiness in this country and in the world as a whole when it accepts commercialism and the global economy over the value of small, local economies and more importantly, the family and the Christian faith.
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 02:08:58 PM »

In the publication, THE NEW SOVIET MAN issued on June 3/16, 1996 the following is mentioned:

" Materials unearthed from the KGB archives indicate that four of the six current permanent members of the Moscow Patriarchate Holy Synod are, or at least until recently were, KGB agents: Patriarch Aleksii II (agent code-name "Drozdov"); Metropolitan Iuvenalii of Krutitsy ("Adament"); Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk, now Patriarch Kirill, ("Mikhailov"); and Metropolitan Filaret of Minsk ("Ostrovskii"). The head of the Patriarchate’s publications department, Metropolitan Pitirim of Volokolamsk ("Abbat"), was also revealed to be an agent.*

*Ogonek, 1992, nos. 18-19, p. 13. To date, the only Moscow Patriarchate bishop to publicly admit that he has served as a KGB agent has been Archbishop Khrizostom of Vilnius. See the interview with him in Moskovskii komsomolets, 30 November 1993, p. 2. Concerning the KGB’s extensive use of church funds to finance secret police operations, see the open letter of Fr. Gleb Yakunin to the Patriarch in Ekspress-khronika, 1994, no. 4, reprinted in Russian and CIS Today, 30 January 1994, pp. 64/22-29. According to the journalist Iurii Buida, monies from this so-called black cashbox may have been employed by the KGB to fund political assassinations. See Novoe Vremia, no. 5, pp.  50-51. (From End note 74, taken from Dunlop, John, "The Moscow Patriarchate As An Empire Saving Institution" Chap. 2 in "The Politics of Religion in Russia and the New States of Eurasia" Editor Michael Bourdeaux. M.E. Sharp Pub. 1995, Armonk, NY).

It should be stressed that an "agent" of the former KGB was considerably more than an informer, he or she was an active operative of the Committee for State Security [KGB], in effect a non-uniformed officer of that organization. (Dunlop, op. cit p. 30.)

  From this evidence, we could reasonably conclude that the one part of the old Soviet Union which survived the fall of Communism relatively intact was the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church. While leaders of many Communist Party units and Soviet institutions were replaced after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Church leadership remained in place unchanged. How tragic to see that those men, put in place by a Communist Party whose aim was the destruction of the Christian Church, have remained there and, if anything, acquired even more power and influence in Russia today, for we see them featured prominently in the Russian media, occupying positions in the Duma, and meeting with the President of Russia, while enjoying far more respect than they had in the past. Orthodox Christians must be very careful not to be misled by the fact that these men wear the clothes of Orthodox bishops, are called by ancient and honorable titles, and occupy the sees of Saints of the Church. They were appointed by the Communists to serve their ends, they were agents of the KGB, they are at best careerists who would sell themselves to the KGB for advancement in a secure job, and at worst they are themselves convinced atheists who viewed the Church as something to subvert. They are indeed examples of the "new man" created by Communism - a man without moral sense or values, but they are in no sense the "new men" our Lord Jesus Christ intended His Church to create — men who deny themselves even unto death to obey God.  "


It's important to keep in mind that today's Moscow Patriarchate was founded by the Russian Government as a department of the KGB, and despise the change of names and policies in state institutions, the Moscow Patriarchate is the sole soviet State Institution that remained virtually unchanged. The new ROCOR under the authority of the Moscow Patriarchate is also lead by "new men" endorsed by the Russian President, and appointed by officials of the Moscow Patriarchate, with previous approval of agent Mikhailov aka Patriarch Kirill.

The same tactics of infiltration and espionage continue to be used by the Russian Government via the Moscow Patrachate, after the fall of communism, according to countless official reports, like the Report Prepared at the Request of the United States House of Representatives Committee on Appropriations by the United States Information Agency June 1992, which is available online:

http://intellit.muskingum.edu/russia_folder/pcw_era/index.htm#Contents

The Moscow Patriarchate is one of the most evil, and dreadful phalanges of the Russian Government, and now that the fortress of communism has "fallen", the Moscow Patriarchate is unleashed to act all round the world.

His allegations are not mere allegations, they are facts, and I'm glad he had the courage to reveal some of the things happening in that organization and the true nature of the MP.



« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 02:26:54 PM by IPC » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 10:21:56 PM »

Dear Second Chance,

Don't forget Preobrazhenskiy's book, "Poisonings in ROCOR" where he describes the way Metropolitan Philaret died corresponds to the symptoms of dead by poisoning, and how the Arb. Hilarion (Kapral) rushed to clean up the vomit as if trying to get rid of the evidence. Was he was made Metropolitan of ROCOR under MP as a reward for his "great achievement"?

Mr Preobrazhenskiy's allegations regarding the infiltration of KGB agents in ROCOR have been patently exposed by the recent creation of ROCOR under the MP. One of the main actors in this travesty, the late Metropolitan Laurus (Skhurla) was constantly pointed out by Mr. Preobrazhenskiy as an agent. During an interview, Mr Preobrazhenskiy said Met. Laurus used to make constant travels to Checoslovakia, "to visit his relatives", and he was granted "an invitation" immediately, every time he asked for it, even during the heights of the cold war. It is well known this would have been possible only if he was allied to the soviet regime and "a true believer". An authentic true russian orthodox hierarch, was considered an enemy of the people, a criminal conducting counterrevolutionary activities, a sectarian, and would have never been granted "an invitation" to visit Checoslovakia.

Met Laurus' long term relationship with the KGB and the MP became evident when officials of the MP and the Russian government gave their full endorsement to his appointment as Metropolitan, describing him as a part of the "healthy forces in ROCOR" and remembering the times when he secretly visited Russia, and met with government officials, and representatives of the MP, during the "hard times of the past".

The True Russian Orthodox Church, (true ROCOR who's last first hiearch was Met Vitaly, and the Catacomb Church) has resisted since the outbreak of the revolution, She has firmly confessed Christ, and rejected the revolutionary government aparatus, and all it's institutions, including the KGB (now FSB) Moscow Patriarchate. They have tried in vain to infiltrate and entrench in Her, but they were always repelled by the grace of the Holy Spirit who cleanses us from all impurity.

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement Second Chance, but as Christ told us, the Church will survive until the end of the world. The impostor FSB MP was created to annihilate the True Russian Orthodox Church, but it will never be able to do so, in Christ, the Victory is already ours.

With it's new army, the ROCOR under the MP, the Russian Government continues it's attempt to do away with the True Russian Orthodox Church, and have total control over the diaspora.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 10:33:53 PM by IPC » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 02:32:51 AM »

Dear Second Chance,

Don't forget Preobrazhenskiy's book, "Poisonings in ROCOR" where he describes the way Metropolitan Philaret died corresponds to the symptoms of dead by poisoning, and how the Arb. Hilarion (Kapral) rushed to clean up the vomit as if trying to get rid of the evidence. Was he was made Metropolitan of ROCOR under MP as a reward for his "great achievement"?

Mr Preobrazhenskiy's allegations regarding the infiltration of KGB agents in ROCOR have been patently exposed by the recent creation of ROCOR under the MP. One of the main actors in this travesty, the late Metropolitan Laurus (Skhurla) was constantly pointed out by Mr. Preobrazhenskiy as an agent. During an interview, Mr Preobrazhenskiy said Met. Laurus used to make constant travels to Checoslovakia, "to visit his relatives", and he was granted "an invitation" immediately, every time he asked for it, even during the heights of the cold war. It is well known this would have been possible only if he was allied to the soviet regime and "a true believer". An authentic true russian orthodox hierarch, was considered an enemy of the people, a criminal conducting counterrevolutionary activities, a sectarian, and would have never been granted "an invitation" to visit Checoslovakia.
1.  Who is Mr. Preobrazhenskiy?
2.  Why should we believe him?
3.  Give us specific quotes and page-number references from this book if you can.

Met Laurus' long term relationship with the KGB and the MP became evident when officials of the MP and the Russian government gave their full endorsement to his appointment as Metropolitan, describing him as a part of the "healthy forces in ROCOR" and remembering the times when he secretly visited Russia, and met with government officials, and representatives of the MP, during the "hard times of the past".
Can you back this up with information from credible sources?

The True Russian Orthodox Church, (true ROCOR who's last first hiearch was Met Vitaly, and the Catacomb Church) has resisted since the outbreak of the revolution, She has firmly confessed Christ, and rejected the revolutionary government aparatus, and all it's institutions, including the KGB (now FSB) Moscow Patriarchate. They have tried in vain to infiltrate and entrench in Her, but they were always repelled by the grace of the Holy Spirit who cleanses us from all impurity.

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement Second Chance, but as Christ told us, the Church will survive until the end of the world. The impostor FSB MP was created to annihilate the True Russian Orthodox Church, but it will never be able to do so, in Christ, the Victory is already ours.

With it's new army, the ROCOR under the MP, the Russian Government continues it's attempt to do away with the True Russian Orthodox Church, and have total control over the diaspora.
Mere propaganda unless you can provide the credible sources informally requested above.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 04:06:41 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 02:50:57 AM »

Don't forget Preobrazhenskiy's book, "Poisonings in ROCOR" where he describes the way Metropolitan Philaret died corresponds to the symptoms of dead by poisoning, and how the Arb. Hilarion (Kapral) rushed to clean up the vomit as if trying to get rid of the evidence. Was he was made Metropolitan of ROCOR under MP as a reward for his "great achievement"?

Dear IPC,

What an abhorrent insinuation, that Metropolitan Hilarion is complicit in murder.

May you be blessed with the just judgement of God for all those who bear false witness and slander the anointed bishops of God.   

May God prevent your evil accusations damaging the faith of those who read your words on this Forum and those who are enquiring into the Orthodox Faith.

Lord, have mercy on this man.   He does not know what he is doing.

Fr Ambrose
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 03:11:46 AM »

Don't forget Preobrazhenskiy's book, "Poisonings in ROCOR" where he describes the way Metropolitan Philaret died corresponds to the symptoms of dead by poisoning, and how the Arb. Hilarion (Kapral) rushed to clean up the vomit as if trying to get rid of the evidence. Was he was made Metropolitan of ROCOR under MP as a reward for his "great achievement"?

Dear IPC,

What an abhorrent insinuation, that Metropolitan Hilarion is complicit in murder.

May you be blessed with the just judgement of God for all those who bear false witness and slander the anointed bishops of God.   

May God prevent your evil accusations damaging the faith of those who read your words on this Forum and those who are enquiring into the Orthodox Faith.

Lord, have mercy on this man.   He does not know what he is doing.

Fr Ambrose

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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 03:28:44 AM »

Don't forget Preobrazhenskiy's book, "Poisonings in ROCOR" where he describes the way Metropolitan Philaret died corresponds to the symptoms of dead by poisoning, and how the Arb. Hilarion (Kapral) rushed to clean up the vomit as if trying to get rid of the evidence. Was he was made Metropolitan of ROCOR under MP as a reward for his "great achievement"?

Dear IPC,

What an abhorrent insinuation, that Metropolitan Hilarion is complicit in murder.

May you be blessed with the just judgement of God for all those who bear false witness and slander the anointed bishops of God.   

May God prevent your evil accusations damaging the faith of those who read your words on this Forum and those who are enquiring into the Orthodox Faith.

Lord, have mercy on this man.   He does not know what he is doing.

Fr Ambrose

Father, is there a rite of exorcism of trolls?

I'd be quite interested to know if there are legal repercussions in the States for someone who makes a public accusation that another person is accessory to murder.

Metropolitan Hilarion is in Australia at this time.

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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 09:02:56 AM »

Don't forget Preobrazhenskiy's book, "Poisonings in ROCOR" where he describes the way Metropolitan Philaret died corresponds to the symptoms of dead by poisoning, and how the Arb. Hilarion (Kapral) rushed to clean up the vomit as if trying to get rid of the evidence. Was he was made Metropolitan of ROCOR under MP as a reward for his "great achievement"?

An Internet search with Google.com reveals no book called "Poisonings in ROCOR."

Either you have given us an inaccurate name or this is an unsubstantiated source or a non-existent source.

Please substantiate what you have written.   

Please do, or this thread will be locked. --Heorhij, moderator, "Free-For-All, Religious Topics."

« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 09:10:33 AM by Heorhij » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 03:15:38 PM »

I did a little research on this and found that, whatever we may think of the credibility of his sources, IPC is in fact not making this stuff up.  For instance, here is what I found online by running Google searches on "Preobrazhensky" and on "Poisonings in Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia":

A biographical sketch of Konstantin Preobrazhensky (a former high ranking KGB officer to whom the USA granted political asylum in 2006):  http://cicentre.com/Documents/konstantin_preobrazhenskiy_bio.html

A couple of Wiki biographies with lists of works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Preobrazhenskiy
http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Konstantin-Preobrazhenskiy

A couple of web pages where his work, "Poisonings in Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia", can be read (already translated from their native Russian, thanks to www.translate.google.com):
http://www.translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evangelie.ru%2Fforum%2Ft32097.html
http://www.translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.invictory.org%2Fprint.php%3Fid%3D11172&sl=ru&tl=en&history_state0=


Now, one may certainly attack the credibility of this fellow Konstantin Preobrazhensky if one likes, but no one can rightly attack IPC for citing him as an authority in compliance with forum rules.
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 03:51:18 PM »

There is information on the net about Mr. Preobrazhenskiy's work "Poisonings in ROCOR", you can google it yourself with the words Отравления в РПЦЗ.

An interview containing the information I posted  can be found here: http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=authority&id=734

Quote: "Иподиакон Нафанаил Капнер: Вы можете рассказать нам, почему отец Виктор Потапов не допустил Вас к Причастию?

Subdeacon Nathanel Kapner: Could you tell us why did Father Victor Potatov didn't allow you to receive communion?

Константин Преображенский: Две недели назад я написал статью, напечатанную "Порталом-Credo.Ru", под названием "Отравления в Зарубежной Церкви". В этой статье, используя письменные и устные доказательства, представленные мне, я указал на вероятность того, что Блаженной памяти Митрополит Филарет был отравлен агентами КГБ и на то, что архиепископ Иларион первым появился у тела почившего Митрополита Филарета сразу же после того, как он скончался. Митрополиту Филарету был поставлен диагноз "остановка сердце", что является показателем возможного отравления.

Constantine Preobrashensky: Two weeks ago I wrote an article published by the website Credo.Ru, under the title" Poisonings in the ROCOR". In this article, I mention, based on written and oral proofs presented to me, that Metropolitan Philaret of Blessed Memory was probably poisoned by KGB agents, and that Archbishop Hilarion was the first to appear by the side of the dead body of Met. Philaret immediately after he died. Metropolitan Philared was diagnosed with cardio-respiratory arrest, which could be an indicator of poisoning." Перевод: © "Портал–Credo.Ru", 2007

According to some other proofs presented by Mr Preobrashensky in his work "poisonings in ROCOR", Metropolitan Philaret vomited shortly before his death, and Ab Hilarion after hearing a loud noise in the next room, rushed to the room and cleaned up the vomit.

Thank you for your concern Irish Hermit and Peter The Aleut, but there are no laws broken in my postings, and there is no possibility of any legal action against Mr Preobrashensky, the site, or myself. Also I have followed the rules of this forum when I posted the information, so, we needn't worry about anything, everything is in order.

As a conscious user, before posting anything, I am careful not to cause any harm to the site, the administrators, the moderators, other users, and of course, myself. We are a community! We should be kind to each other! Smiley
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 03:54:37 PM by IPC » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 04:26:38 PM »

I did a little research on this and found that, whatever we may think of the credibility of his sources, IPC is in fact not making this stuff up.  For instance, here is what I found online by running Google searches on "Preobrazhensky" and on "Poisonings in Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia":


Now, one may certainly attack the credibility of this fellow Konstantin Preobrazhensky if one likes, but no one can rightly attack IPC for citing him as an authority in compliance with forum rules.

Those of us in the Russian Church have been well aware for about two years  of what you have found. 

IPC lied in saying that Preobrazhensky has a book called "Poisonings in ROCOR."

There is no such book.

There is only a small article on Portal-credo.ru, a scurrilous anti-Church Internet journal whose credibility is so low that it is jokingly referred to not as Portal-credo.RU but as Portal-credo.VRU.  "Vru" means "I lie" in Russian.  Please read that article here
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=monitor&id=10321


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PC has lied about the claim that Metropolitan Hilarion was complicit in the murder of Metropolitan Philaret.  Even Preobrazhensky does not dare to make such a libellous and actionable claim.   He says that the doctor's examination showed that Metropolitan Philaret died of a heart attack.  Preobrazhensky says that +Philaret was found on the floor beside his bed and there were traces of vomit.  He says that Metropolitan Hilarion placed the body back on the bed and cleaned up the traces of vomit..  NOWHERE does Preobrazhensky say that Met Hilarion was an accomplice to murder and NOWHERE does Preobrazhensky say that Met Hilarion was rewarded for his complicity in murder by being chosen by Moscow to lead the Russian Church Abroad.  These are lies created by IPC.

These lies have no foundation in fact.  These lies are not even alleged by Preobrazhensky.  IPC  has no substantiation for his wicked slander and he must, at least as I understand Forum Rules, either substantiate or retract.

Hieromonk Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church Abroad
Diocese of Australia and New Zealand
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 04:31:23 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 04:41:12 PM »


As a conscious user, before posting anything, I am careful not to cause any harm to the site, the administrators, the moderators, other users, and of course, myself. We are a community! We should be kind to each other! Smiley


It is questionable whether posting lies on an Orthodox Forum accusing a man of complicity in murder and producing no evidence benefits the Forum or harms it.

It is questionable whether telling lies about Metropolitan Hilarion, one of the most loved bishops in the Western world, benefits the users of this site.  And these are lies which even Preobrazhensky, for all his venomous attitude against the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, has not dared to make.   You have lied and harmed all of us with unsubstantiated allegations and you have even slandered Preobrazhensky by trying to make him responsible for your lies. 

So Preobrazhensky does not support your wicked claims of murder and Metropolitan Hilarion.    Produce the proof.

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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 04:56:28 PM »

Thank you for your concern Irish Hermit and Peter The Aleut, but there are no laws broken in my postings, and there is no possibility of any legal action against Mr Preobrashensky, the site, or myself.

I agree with you.  If you or Preobrazhensky had the slightest reliable information that Metropolitan Hilarion was an accomplice to murder or perverted the course of justice by covering up for a murder you would have been at the NY Police Department within 30 minutes.  As responsible citizens you would have made your concerns known to the authorities.

The fact that you have not done that is sufficient proof that this is all malicious codswallop.

However, Vladyka Hilarion still has his legal rights to pursue remedies for slander.

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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 04:57:14 PM »

I did a little research on this and found that, whatever we may think of the credibility of his sources, IPC is in fact not making this stuff up.  For instance, here is what I found online by running Google searches on "Preobrazhensky" and on "Poisonings in Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia":


Now, one may certainly attack the credibility of this fellow Konstantin Preobrazhensky if one likes, but no one can rightly attack IPC for citing him as an authority in compliance with forum rules.

Those of us in the Russian Church have been well aware for about two years  of what you have found. 

IPC lied in saying that Preobrazhensky has a book called "Poisonings in ROCOR."

There is no such book.

There is only a small article on Portal-credo.ru, a scurrilous anti-Church Internet journal whose credibility is so low that it is jokingly referred to not as Portal-credo.RU but as Portal-credo.VRU.  "Vru" means "I lie" in Russian.  Please read that article here
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=monitor&id=10321


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PC has lied about the claim that Metropolitan Hilarion was complicit in the murder of Metropolitan Philaret.  Even Preobrazhensky does not dare to make such a libellous and actionable claim.   He says that the doctor's examination showed that Metropolitan Philaret died of a heart attack.  Preobrazhensky says that +Philaret was found on the floor beside his bed and there were traces of vomit.  He says that Metropolitan Hilarion placed the body back on the bed and cleaned up the traces of vomit..  NOWHERE does Preobrazhensky say that Met Hilarion was an accomplice to murder and NOWHERE does Preobrazhensky say that Met Hilarion was rewarded for his complicity in murder by being chosen by Moscow to lead the Russian Church Abroad.  These are lies created by IPC.

These lies have no foundation in fact.  These lies are not even alleged by Preobrazhensky.  IPC  has no substantiation for his wicked slander and he must, at least as I understand Forum Rules, either substantiate or retract.

Hieromonk Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church Abroad
Diocese of Australia and New Zealand
Well, we have some of the sources here.  We can read them for ourselves.  Shall we do this rather than merely rely on you to read them for us?

Additionally, since you're going beyond merely requesting sources to verify his claims and have formally accused IPC of lying by providing us your own assertions of facts, it is now incumbent upon you to back up your claims.  Prove to us that what you have asserted about Mr. Preobrazhensky is indeed true and that IPC is therefore lying.

Finally, if you feel that IPC has violated forum rules, why haven't you reported the violation rather than run the risk of misrepresenting forum rules yourself?  Haven't you been warned about doing this before?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 05:06:59 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2009, 05:18:11 PM »

I did a little research on this and found that, whatever we may think of the credibility of his sources, IPC is in fact not making this stuff up.  For instance, here is what I found online by running Google searches on "Preobrazhensky" and on "Poisonings in Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia":


Now, one may certainly attack the credibility of this fellow Konstantin Preobrazhensky if one likes, but no one can rightly attack IPC for citing him as an authority in compliance with forum rules.

Those of us in the Russian Church have been well aware for about two years  of what you have found. 

IPC lied in saying that Preobrazhensky has a book called "Poisonings in ROCOR."

There is no such book.

There is only a small article on Portal-credo.ru, a scurrilous anti-Church Internet journal whose credibility is so low that it is jokingly referred to not as Portal-credo.RU but as Portal-credo.VRU.  "Vru" means "I lie" in Russian.  Please read that article here
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=monitor&id=10321


------------------

PC has lied about the claim that Metropolitan Hilarion was complicit in the murder of Metropolitan Philaret.  Even Preobrazhensky does not dare to make such a libellous and actionable claim.   He says that the doctor's examination showed that Metropolitan Philaret died of a heart attack.  Preobrazhensky says that +Philaret was found on the floor beside his bed and there were traces of vomit.  He says that Metropolitan Hilarion placed the body back on the bed and cleaned up the traces of vomit..  NOWHERE does Preobrazhensky say that Met Hilarion was an accomplice to murder and NOWHERE does Preobrazhensky say that Met Hilarion was rewarded for his complicity in murder by being chosen by Moscow to lead the Russian Church Abroad.  These are lies created by IPC.

These lies have no foundation in fact.  These lies are not even alleged by Preobrazhensky.  IPC  has no substantiation for his wicked slander and he must, at least as I understand Forum Rules, either substantiate or retract.

Hieromonk Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church Abroad
Diocese of Australia and New Zealand
Well, we have some of the sources here.  We can read them for ourselves.  Shall we do this rather than merely rely on you to read them for us?

Yes, please read them.  The staff at OC.net have a moral duty if not a legal one to be cognisant of false allegations against a Metropolitan of the Church and a citizen of the United States.

You will find, as I have said, that Preobrazhensky has not claimed that Metrpolitan Hilarion is an accesory to murder and nor has he tried to subvert the course of justice by covering for a murderer and nor was he rewarded for his complicity in murder by being promoted by Moscow tro be head of ROCA.

All these lies have been made up by IPC.   

If these are not lies then I want them substantiated.  I want them substantiated to at least the level that the Forum Staff (and the Forum membership) are convinced that there is sufficient evidence to believe it possible that Metropolitan Hilarion is an accessory to murder.
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2009, 05:26:51 PM »

Quote
Yes, please read them.  The staff at OC.net have a moral duty if not a legal one to be cognisant of false allegations against a Metropolitan of the Church and a citizen of the United States.

You will find, as I have said, that Preobrazhensky has not claimed that Metrpolitan Hilarion is an accesory to murder and nor has he tried to subvert the course of justice by covering for a murderer and nor was he rewarded for his complicity in murder by being promoted by Moscow tro be head of ROCA.

All these lies have been made up by IPC.   

If these are not lies then I want them substantiated.  I want them substantiated to at least the level that the Forum Staff (and the Forum membership) are convinced that there is sufficient evidence to believe it possible that Metropolitan Hilarion is an accessory to murder.

Well said.  It all seems a little far fetched in regards to Metr. Hilarion.  My impression of him is that he is a very simple person born in rural Alberta and thus a Canadian citizen.
He did not attend university but on the other hand his spirituality was formed at Holy Trinity Monastery and through the witness of participating in all the services of the monastery.  I find it hard to believe with this background that he is capable of such intrigue and scheming and arrogance.  It just seems out of character with his sermons etc.
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2009, 05:33:18 PM »

Additionally, since you're going beyond merely requesting sources to verify his claims and have formally accused IPC of lying by providing us your own assertions of facts

My assertion is that Metropoliatn Hilarion did not have a part in the alleged murder of Metropolitan Philaret, and nor did he subvert the course of justice by destroying evidence.

Quote
it is now incumbent upon you to back up your claims.

Has the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' been removed from American jurisprudence?  I do not have to prove the innocence of my Metropolitan.    The accusers have to prove their claims.

Quote
Finally, if you feel that IPC has violated forum rules, why haven't you reported the violation rather than run the risk of misrepresenting forum rules yourself?

It was reported.  Have I misrepresented Forum rules?

However I shall NOT allow my bishop to be accused of murder on what is probably the largest Orthodox Internet Forum in the world.  Many clergy know I write here.  What do you think they would expect me to do about such allegations?

Quote
  Haven't you been warned about doing this before?
 

Protesting when vicious lies are spread about my Metropolitan who is also my own much loved bishop?  No, I have not because, thank the Lord, there has never been any necessity.
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2009, 05:34:31 PM »

Even if there were convincing evidence that something like that happened, OCnet is not the place to deliberate such matters which could have obvious legal ramifications. Such matters are best taken up by the police and courts, which have never seemed to have thought there evidence enough or interest enough to do so.

IPC, do not post accusations of criminal conduct on this forum again.

Thread closed.

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