Author Topic: The Catholic Church and nazifascism  (Read 6362 times)

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Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2009, 09:06:52 PM »
Thankfully the RC Church has repudiated it's collaboration with fascism.  However, certain segments of the RC, most notably the Society of St Pius X (which is in negotiations for official reunion with the Vatican) are still heavily filled with Nazi/Fascist sympathizers and supporters.

The Pope, by attempting to bring RC traditionalsit back into his fold, may reactivate Catholic fascism though and he should tread this path carefully.

The Catholic Church hasn't repudiated anything because it wasn't collaborating with the Nazi's. 

Offline username!

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2009, 10:17:01 PM »
Thankfully the RC Church has repudiated it's collaboration with fascism.  However, certain segments of the RC, most notably the Society of St Pius X (which is in negotiations for official reunion with the Vatican) are still heavily filled with Nazi/Fascist sympathizers and supporters.

The Pope, by attempting to bring RC traditionalsit back into his fold, may reactivate Catholic fascism though and he should tread this path carefully.

Can you actually prove these allegations?  Those are a tall charge to hand to people without evidence.  It's gossip at the best. 

Offline stanley123

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2009, 12:44:14 AM »


The Catholic Church hasn't repudiated anything because it wasn't collaborating with the Nazi's. 
Was there any collaboration with the Croatian Nazis known as the Ustase?

Offline Robb

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2009, 02:00:51 AM »
Thankfully the RC Church has repudiated it's collaboration with fascism.  However, certain segments of the RC, most notably the Society of St Pius X (which is in negotiations for official reunion with the Vatican) are still heavily filled with Nazi/Fascist sympathizers and supporters.

The Pope, by attempting to bring RC traditionalsit back into his fold, may reactivate Catholic fascism though and he should tread this path carefully.

Can you actually prove these allegations?  Those are a tall charge to hand to people without evidence.  It's gossip at the best. 

On the SSPX links to Nazifacism:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=397


http://www.adl.org/main_Interfaith/Society_Saint_Pius_X.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_the_Society_of_St._Pius_X


On the involvement of Catholic Churh and Nazifacism (note, I did not say "The Vatican", but the Church instead.  It was no secret that the RCC favored facism over the USSR ( I guess few could initially blame them).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involvement_of_Croatian_Catholic_clergy_with_the_Ustasa_regime

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism


« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 02:13:35 AM by Robb »
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2009, 02:22:53 AM »
yawn.. smells of anti-catholicism served on a protestant platter.  Wiki isn't credible.  In fact I think most of the things on the internet aren't credible.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2009, 05:51:19 AM »
Wow...  Links to the ADL and SPLC.  Who listed Tridentine Catholics as a "hate group" due to the Good Friday prayer.  And when did Nazifascism become a word?
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Offline Robb

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2009, 01:51:39 PM »
I was involved with traditionalsit Catholicism for years.  I can attest to the fact that many "traddies" are, in fact, Fascist sympathizers.  They openly preach in favor of such personalities as Louis XIV, Petain, Salazar, and Franco, whom they esteem as great men.  The whole Latin mass movement, whether connected with Rome or not, is riddled with Nazifascism. Just look at the bishop Richard Williamson, who is an open Nazi apologist.  Also, many fascist Americans, such as Pat Buchanan, are Latin mass attendees. It is perhaps the greatest enemy of human freedom existing today (next to Islamofacism).

Also Wiki is credible.  Maybe you don't want to believe it is but look at the sources they reference for the article and check them out.
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert

Offline lubeltri

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2009, 05:02:17 PM »
I was involved with traditionalsit Catholicism for years.  I can attest to the fact that many "traddies" are, in fact, Fascist sympathizers.  They openly preach in favor of such personalities as Louis XIV, Petain, Salazar, and Franco, whom they esteem as great men.  The whole Latin mass movement, whether connected with Rome or not, is riddled with Nazifascism. Just look at the bishop Richard Williamson, who is an open Nazi apologist.  Also, many fascist Americans, such as Pat Buchanan, are Latin mass attendees. It is perhaps the greatest enemy of human freedom existing today (next to Islamofacism).

Also Wiki is credible.  Maybe you don't want to believe it is but look at the sources they reference for the article and check them out.

I have serious doubts about your experience with SSPX faithful. There are some nutters in every group, but your broad accusations are quite false.

And since when did Pat Buchanan become a "fascist American"? This is a very ironic accusation coming from a person who has a photo of Vladimir Putin under his name.
 
Have you seen the prayers for the Jews in the Orthodox Good Friday liturgy? Be glad your favorite Abraham Foxman has not run across them yet.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 05:07:46 PM by lubeltri »

Offline ignatius

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2009, 11:36:58 PM »
I have serious doubts about your experience with SSPX faithful. There are some nutters in every group, but your broad accusations are quite false.

And since when did Pat Buchanan become a "fascist American"? This is a very ironic accusation coming from a person who has a photo of Vladimir Putin under his name.
 
Have you seen the prayers for the Jews in the Orthodox Good Friday liturgy? Be glad your favorite Abraham Foxman has not run across them yet.

I'm in an agreement with you on this Lubeltri. I have had experience with SSPX and other Traditionalists and I don't think that such a broad caricuture is valid nor do I believe that one should publically condemn whole religious groups.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 12:03:00 AM by ignatius »
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Offline Robb

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2009, 12:38:47 AM »
Most traditionalist are either anti semities, political rightist, (Pat Buchanan is a classic example of Fascism rearing it's ugly head in America).  I have seen this before with them.  You can hurl invectives at me all you please and accuse me of untruth, but I know what I have heard in my years of experience with these people.
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert

Offline lubeltri

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2009, 02:11:55 PM »
Most traditionalist are either anti semities, political rightist, (Pat Buchanan is a classic example of Fascism rearing it's ugly head in America).  I have seen this before with them.  You can hurl invectives at me all you please and accuse me of untruth, but I know what I have heard in my years of experience with these people.

There you go again. You're the one hurling invectives around.

Offline Ebor

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2009, 03:39:38 PM »
[quote authorI w=Robb link=topic=21948.msg340050#msg340050 date=1248025899]
Just look at the bishop Richard Williamson, who is an open Nazi apologist.
[/quote]

I would disagree that Bp. Williamson is an "open Nazi apologist". Rather he would seem to be a person who has not studied World War II on a deeper level and got some of his information from less then reliably supported sources. He doesn't really have good, true information and knowledge of the subject.  I have read some of his other writings and I don't agree with his ideas in many of them either.  To be clear btw, I am by no means any kind of RC, but I do care about truth and history as well as being fair to others.


Quote
  Also, many fascist Americans, such as Pat Buchanan, are Latin mass attendees. It is perhaps the greatest enemy of human freedom existing today (next to Islamofacism).

May I ask what you mean when you use the word "fascist" please, and what or who are "fascist Americans"?


Quote
Also Wiki is credible.  Maybe you don't want to believe it is but look at the sources they reference for the article and check them out.

A lot of wiki is credible for basic information and sources to go to for more information.  There are some topics that are nonsense, but that's why there are people monitoring the "fringes" to deal with the silly or the self-serving or the ones that people work mischief on for malicious purposes. 

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2009, 03:43:32 PM »
Most traditionalist are either anti semities, political rightist,

This is not restricted to some fringe of the RC.  There are threads here on OC.net where some pretty raw antisemitism has been posted by people who are EO.  I have also read EO who come from all points in the left-right spectrum


Ebor

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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Offline John Larocque

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2009, 02:20:33 PM »
I generally have no patience for those who pain the (Catholic) Church with a wide brush over this. I've only just started digging into the history of the Orthodox Church in Russia under Communism, and while you'll encounter the "collaborationist" memes and accusations, you'll also find examples of many examples of people who suffered and died for their faith (the so-called "New Martyrs") of the 20th century. And it's the same with Nazis and world war II.

As for the "Latin Mass" movement, it's unfortunate that proto-fascists can be found there (especially the SSPX crowd), which is too bad, because those who oppose Novus Ordo are IMHO on the right side of history. Mass facing the people and communion in the hand, removal of the Altar rails, have contributed to a more Protestant understanding of the Eucharist, and it's not surprising to see that belief in the Real Presence is not strong. Inelegant and badly translated English liturgies. The sad part is that there was a real need for Mass in the vernacular, something the Council was right to advise. But the Bishops on down took a wrecking ball to centuries of tradition. So the rhetorical question to be asked is, "where do you turn?" Turning Latin doesn't sound so bad... neither does turning to the liturgical traditions of the East.

My views of Pat Buchanan are not kind, nor anyone who toys with revisionist history of World War II. I have also zero tolerance for anti-Semitism of the "right" or the "left" - it's the same with me. That he has a following in the United States is sad. He is following in the tradition, and has inherited the mantle of, the radio priest Father Coughlin, who had his own set of issues with Jews and FDR's "Jew" deal. It's a historical oddity that he now echoes arguments once made by Know Nothings against Catholic immigrants.



« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 02:32:59 PM by John Larocque »

Offline Robb

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Re: The Catholic Church and nazifascism
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2009, 03:12:51 PM »
Yes, Buchanan has turned out to be a fascist sympathizer if ever there was one.  The sad thing is that , for years, people like me defended him against charges of anti semitism and pro Nazi ideology. I actually agreed with some of Buchanan's paleo con viewpoints, on Iraq and isolationism.  Then he turned around last year and wrote the most scathing revisionist history book about World War II which stated that Hitler and Germany were the innocent victims of the Western democracies wrath (along with the USSR). His view of World War II went something like this"   All Hitler wanted to do was to build a railway line across the Polish corridor into East Prussia, which the Poles opposed.  "Der Fuhrer" had but no choice to invade and subjugate the Polish criminals for their vain disobedience to his whims.  Britian and France were wrong to promise Poland a guarantee of security which they could not immediately back up with armed help.  The Poles, and all other Slavs, should have just given into Hitlers demands and become part of his "Greater German Reich".  

This man has an obsessive anti Salvic complex that's off the charts.  He also seems to despise anyone who does not fit into his WASPish view of Americanism.  Buchanan should really be sent out of the country, either by deportation, or exile.  Let him go to some nation which will be more sympathetic to his bigoted views (Venezuela perhaps).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 03:13:42 PM by Robb »
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert