OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 22, 2014, 09:05:58 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Catholic Church and nazifascism  (Read 6112 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Stefano
Moderated
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: none
Posts: 12


« on: June 22, 2009, 01:19:14 AM »

   
The evidences of complicity of the roman church with the Reich.

Hitler with nuncio

nazicatholics salute Hitler

A nazi chaplain...

A dominican monk with nazis....

NS priests

Hitler salutes monsignor Tiso, dictador of the nazi puppet state of Slovakia.

Ribbentrop, Fr.Tiso and NS...

León Degrelle(Belgium), Catholic Rexiste leader (and SS member).

Mussolini

Mussolini and roman clergy

Archbishop Stepinac with Ustashis (croatian nazicatholics)

Ante Pavelic, Ustashi leader, in the mass.




Franco, spanish "caudillo" and church...

Spanish priests supporting the Blue Division("Spanish SS").

Franco...



 If you are here to troll, at least bring up topics or information we have not heard before. Your disregard of rules of this site combined with your inability to provide new material results in you being banned.

+FrChris
Admin
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,643


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2009, 01:21:23 AM »

*sound of can of worms opening*

Mods, methinks this thread belongs in the Politics section....
Logged
Stefano
Moderated
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: none
Posts: 12


« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2009, 01:58:00 AM »

*sound of can of worms opening*

Mods, methinks this thread belongs in the Politics section....

Vatican and politics... the same thing....
Logged
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 02:04:44 AM »

You have really opened my eyes. Oh lordie, lordie Roll Eyes
Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
Philokalia
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 173


Hail Mary Full of Grace


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 02:21:12 AM »

http://www.pioxii.150m.com/enartic.htm

Documentation from the Vatican Secret Archives has revealed that Pope Pius XII's wartime assistance to Jews was so great that it stirred protests in some Catholic circles. This is confirmed in letters published together with the registers of the Vatican Information Office on Prisoners of War, established by Pius XII, with the title "Inter Arma Caritas." Press agencies published one of the letters reproduced in Volume 2, pages 950-951, sent to the Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Luigi Maglione, on July 21, 1943, by Archbishop Andrea Cassulo, apostolic nuncio in Romania, in which he referred to "some protests." Bishop Agostino Pacha of Timisoara, Romania, wrote that in his community there were protests, "as the greater part of messages transmitted to this nunciature are for persons of the Jewish race," to the point that he spoke of the Holy See's "preference" for Jews. Archbishop Cassulo presented a copy of a letter in Latin, written by a Monsignor Tacha, in which he spoke about the protests of his faithful -- 78% of whom were of German origin -- who accused the Church "openly and publicly" of supporting and having good relations with the Jews,

http://www.articlearchives.com/society-social-assistance-lifestyle/religion-spirituality/954800-1.html

....there is plenty of evidence that shows that Pius XII had very pro-Jewish attitudes. As a young student in Rome, Eugenio Pacelli went to school with Jews, notably Guido Mendes. In 1939 the Vatican provided Mendes and his family with exit visas to escape to Palestine. Mendes settled in the Tel Aviv suburb Ramat Gan, eventually becoming a prominent physician in Israel. In 1917, Pacelli, who was still serving as an aide to Cardinal Gasparri, helped organize a meeting between Pope Benedict XV and the Zionist leader Nahum Sokolow. In February 2003 the Vatican began the process of opening its archives from 1933-1945 to scholars. One of the first documents that was found was a letter dated April 4, 1933, from Cardinal Pacelli, who was named the Vatican Secretary of State in December 1929, to Monsignor Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Germany. "Important Jewish personalities have appealed to the Holy Father [Pope Pius XI] to ask for his intervention against the danger of anti-Semitic excesses in Germany," Pacelli wrote. "Given that it is part of the traditions of the Holy See to carry out its mission of universal peace and charity toward all men, regardless of the social or religious condition to which they belong, by offering, if necessary, its charitable offices, the Holy Father asks Your Excellency to see if and how it is possible to be involved in the desired way."

http://www.amazon.com/tag/religion/forum?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx417AUXOWKSRN&cdThread=Tx35D7WGA8C9TT&displayType=tagsDetail
On August 11, 1933, in a private conversation with Ivone Kirkpatrick, the British Ambassador to the Vatican, Pacelli expressed his "disgust and abhorrence" at Hitler's reign of terror. "He had to choose [between] an agreement on [Nazi] lines and the virtual elimation of the Catholic Church in the Reich." During the concordat negotiations, Hitler had arrested ninenty-two Catholic priests, searched the premises of sixteen Catholic youth clubs, and shut down nine Catholic publications-all within the space of three weeks. On August 19, 1933 Ambassador Kirkpatrick reported to the British Foreign Office:

"His Eminence, the cardinal secretary of state, was extremely frank and made no effort to conceal his disgust at the proceedings of Hitler's government. . . .

http://theblackcordelias.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/hitlers-pope-the-urban-legend/
http://www.zenit.org/article-6593?l=english

Logged

Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,643


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 02:26:30 AM »

Nice work, Philokalia, but it may well be an exercise in pearls before swine ...  Roll Eyes Sad
Logged
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 02:30:58 AM »

Nice work, Philokalia, but it may well be an exercise in pearls before swine ...  Roll Eyes Sad
laugh
Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 03:05:46 AM »

Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 03:14:12 AM »

Sorry i don't see any trolls or swine in his post,why are the catholic posters against historical documentation being posted here ,that's bringing the darkness that happened into the light of day,,,just curious...Arn't we suppose to learn from history and not repeat the darkness..... Huh Huh
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 03:15:22 AM »


Roll Eyes
Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2009, 03:19:33 AM »

Sorry i don't see any trolls or swine in his post,why are the catholic posters against historical documentation being posted here ,that's bringing the darkness that happened into the light of day,,,just curious...Arn't we suppose to learn from history and not repeat the darkness..... Huh Huh

I'm feeding you just this one time, and then that's it.

You aren't interested in learning about anything on this forum---you're here to hate on Catholics. My advice: Stay on the Orthodox sections of this Orthodox board, for your own good.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,178


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2009, 03:31:45 AM »

Sorry i don't see any trolls or swine in his post...
Simple.  When a guy, within little more than an hour of registering for an account here, starts a whole bucket load of threads with garbage like this, he's trolling.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 03:32:24 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2009, 03:41:47 AM »

http://www.pioxii.150m.com/enartic.htm

Documentation from the Vatican Secret Archives has revealed that Pope Pius XII's wartime assistance to Jews was so great that it stirred protests in some Catholic circles. This is confirmed in letters published together with the registers of the Vatican Information Office on Prisoners of War, established by Pius XII, with the title "Inter Arma Caritas." Press agencies published one of the letters reproduced in Volume 2, pages 950-951, sent to the Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Luigi Maglione, on July 21, 1943, by Archbishop Andrea Cassulo, apostolic nuncio in Romania, in which he referred to "some protests." Bishop Agostino Pacha of Timisoara, Romania, wrote that in his community there were protests, "as the greater part of messages transmitted to this nunciature are for persons of the Jewish race," to the point that he spoke of the Holy See's "preference" for Jews. Archbishop Cassulo presented a copy of a letter in Latin, written by a Monsignor Tacha, in which he spoke about the protests of his faithful -- 78% of whom were of German origin -- who accused the Church "openly and publicly" of supporting and having good relations with the Jews,

http://www.articlearchives.com/society-social-assistance-lifestyle/religion-spirituality/954800-1.html

....there is plenty of evidence that shows that Pius XII had very pro-Jewish attitudes. As a young student in Rome, Eugenio Pacelli went to school with Jews, notably Guido Mendes. In 1939 the Vatican provided Mendes and his family with exit visas to escape to Palestine. Mendes settled in the Tel Aviv suburb Ramat Gan, eventually becoming a prominent physician in Israel. In 1917, Pacelli, who was still serving as an aide to Cardinal Gasparri, helped organize a meeting between Pope Benedict XV and the Zionist leader Nahum Sokolow. In February 2003 the Vatican began the process of opening its archives from 1933-1945 to scholars. One of the first documents that was found was a letter dated April 4, 1933, from Cardinal Pacelli, who was named the Vatican Secretary of State in December 1929, to Monsignor Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Germany. "Important Jewish personalities have appealed to the Holy Father [Pope Pius XI] to ask for his intervention against the danger of anti-Semitic excesses in Germany," Pacelli wrote. "Given that it is part of the traditions of the Holy See to carry out its mission of universal peace and charity toward all men, regardless of the social or religious condition to which they belong, by offering, if necessary, its charitable offices, the Holy Father asks Your Excellency to see if and how it is possible to be involved in the desired way."

http://www.amazon.com/tag/religion/forum?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx417AUXOWKSRN&cdThread=Tx35D7WGA8C9TT&displayType=tagsDetail
On August 11, 1933, in a private conversation with Ivone Kirkpatrick, the British Ambassador to the Vatican, Pacelli expressed his "disgust and abhorrence" at Hitler's reign of terror. "He had to choose [between] an agreement on [Nazi] lines and the virtual elimation of the Catholic Church in the Reich." During the concordat negotiations, Hitler had arrested ninenty-two Catholic priests, searched the premises of sixteen Catholic youth clubs, and shut down nine Catholic publications-all within the space of three weeks. On August 19, 1933 Ambassador Kirkpatrick reported to the British Foreign Office:

"His Eminence, the cardinal secretary of state, was extremely frank and made no effort to conceal his disgust at the proceedings of Hitler's government. . . .

http://theblackcordelias.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/hitlers-pope-the-urban-legend/
http://www.zenit.org/article-6593?l=english


I would like to know what happened during WWII, and how much is true and how much is exaggerated. Now we see that according to the post by Philokalia that the Pope was supposed to be pro-Jewish? But then how does that explain the reports of the existence of the so-called ratlines. Were not Vatican priests, such as Bishop Hudal and Father Draganovic actively involved in helping Nazis and Ustase war criminals escape. And were there not many Catholic priests involved with the Croatian Ustase movement?
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2009, 03:42:17 AM »

Sorry i don't see any trolls or swine in his post...
Simple.  When a guy, within little more than an hour of registering for an account here, starts a whole bucket load of threads with garbage like this, he's trolling.


Wasn't he a poster here a long while back ,the name sounds familiar.....The post above yours ,,mentions for me to stick to the orthodox section of the forum...My parents were in jesenovac the Bosnian croation ustasha camp they suffered greatly by the croation catholic ustasha hands, so his post brings the anger out in me to see so called christians doing this evil enmass to fellow christians......


« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 03:55:22 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2009, 03:55:09 AM »

I would like to know what happened during WWII, and how much is true and how much is exaggerated. Now we see that according to the post by Philokalia that the Pope was supposed to be pro-Jewish? But then how does that explain the reports of the existence of the so-called ratlines. Were not Vatican priests, such as Bishop Hudal and Father Draganovic actively involved in helping Nazis and Ustase war criminals escape. And were there not many Catholic priests involved with the Croatian Ustase movement?
If you want to know then I suggest you do some research, but please don't feed the troll on this thread. 
Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2009, 04:16:39 AM »

I would like to know what happened during WWII, and how much is true and how much is exaggerated. Now we see that according to the post by Philokalia that the Pope was supposed to be pro-Jewish? But then how does that explain the reports of the existence of the so-called ratlines. Were not Vatican priests, such as Bishop Hudal and Father Draganovic actively involved in helping Nazis and Ustase war criminals escape. And were there not many Catholic priests involved with the Croatian Ustase movement?
If you want to know then I suggest you do some research, but please don't feed the troll on this thread. 
The problem is that many of the reports on WWII are contradictory and it is not all that easy to find out what really happened. What ws the extent of the Catholic collaboration with the Ustase during WWII? IF there was no collaboration, then how do you explain the existence of the ratlines according to which many of the Nazi war criminals escaped with the aid of priests in the Vatican?
Logged
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2009, 04:23:38 AM »

I would like to know what happened during WWII, and how much is true and how much is exaggerated. Now we see that according to the post by Philokalia that the Pope was supposed to be pro-Jewish? But then how does that explain the reports of the existence of the so-called ratlines. Were not Vatican priests, such as Bishop Hudal and Father Draganovic actively involved in helping Nazis and Ustase war criminals escape. And were there not many Catholic priests involved with the Croatian Ustase movement?
If you want to know then I suggest you do some research, but please don't feed the troll on this thread. 
The problem is that many of the reports on WWII are contradictory and it is not all that easy to find out what really happened. What ws the extent of the Catholic collaboration with the Ustase during WWII? IF there was no collaboration, then how do you explain the existence of the ratlines according to which many of the Nazi war criminals escaped with the aid of priests in the Vatican?
So you come to an online forum and select a thread initiated by a troll for answers? Bravo! laugh
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 04:24:41 AM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2009, 04:47:26 AM »

I would like to know what happened during WWII, and how much is true and how much is exaggerated. Now we see that according to the post by Philokalia that the Pope was supposed to be pro-Jewish? But then how does that explain the reports of the existence of the so-called ratlines. Were not Vatican priests, such as Bishop Hudal and Father Draganovic actively involved in helping Nazis and Ustase war criminals escape. And were there not many Catholic priests involved with the Croatian Ustase movement?
If you want to know then I suggest you do some research, but please don't feed the troll on this thread. 
The problem is that many of the reports on WWII are contradictory and it is not all that easy to find out what really happened. What ws the extent of the Catholic collaboration with the Ustase during WWII? IF there was no collaboration, then how do you explain the existence of the ratlines according to which many of the Nazi war criminals escaped with the aid of priests in the Vatican?
So you come to an online forum and select a thread initiated by a troll for answers? Bravo! laugh
i am not sure what a troll is. Except that it has something to do with an ad hominem argument. Also, I do not beleive that sarcasm is appropriate for such a terrible and horrible event as the one to which he is referring. A lot of innocent people have sufferend for nothing. And the explanations are not always convincing.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2009, 05:11:00 AM »

Stanley,

You yourself admitted that such historical controversies are extremely complex and contradictory. Only trained historians with thousands of hours to spend on sifting the evidence could possibly do justice to it, and even then, all conclusions are colored by politics and ideology. Even historians hotly debate these things.

Do you realize how pointless it is to enter this minefield....on an Internet board? On a thread started by a troll, who thinks posting random photos with no context constitutes an historical argument?

If you want to go to the library and wade through the enormous amount of material to decide for yourself who deserves what blame for 65-year-old atrocities, be my guest.

That some members (even some prelates) of the Catholic Church committed crimes (or remained silent as they were committed) during the Second World War, I do not doubt. Terrible but true.

That some members of all sorts of organizations in all the world do terrible things in the organization's name (especially during the era of the Second World War), I also do not doubt. Human nature, being what it is, all too often giving itself over to the Devil's wiles.

The Fall is at the heart of it. You don't need to pore over thousands of pages of documents to see that.

That applies to Catholics, to Protestants, to Muslims, to Jews, to atheists, to all human beings---including to Orthodox.
Logged
Philokalia
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 173


Hail Mary Full of Grace


WWW
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2009, 05:17:26 AM »



I would like to know what happened during WWII, and how much is true and how much is exaggerated. Now we see that according to the post by Philokalia that the Pope was supposed to be pro-Jewish? But then how does that explain the reports of the existence of the so-called ratlines. Were not Vatican priests, such as Bishop Hudal and Father Draganovic actively involved in helping Nazis and Ustase war criminals escape. And were there not many Catholic priests involved with the Croatian Ustase movement?

You could try following the links I gave. The fact is that there are tens of millions of Catholics in Europe and at the time of the Nazi era some behaved honourably, some behaved disgracefully and most tried to get by as best they could. None, of course, had the gift of hindsight which we possess. If we speak though of "The Catholic Church" as an entity then it is to her "official" actions and words that we must look for guidance as to what she believed and what she desired her faithful children to do. In that respect we can look to the example of the martyr Church in Poland.
http://felsztyn.tripod.com/germaninvasion/id8.html
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=472&CFID=8493276&CFTOKEN=44530630
The Catholic Church in Poland was especially hard hit by the Nazis. In 1939, 80 percent of the Catholic clergy and five of the bishops of the Warthegau region had been deported to concentration camps. In Wroclaw, 49.2 percent of the clergy were dead; in Chelmno, 47.8 percent; in Lodz, 36.8 percent; in Poznan, 31.1. In the Warsaw diocese, 212 priests were killed; 92 were murdered in Wilno, 81 in Lwow, 30 in Cracow, thirteen in Kielce. .....Of 690 priests in the Polish province of West Prussia, at least 460 were arrested....Of the arrested priests, 214 were executed...Of the city of Poznan's 30 churches and 47 chapels, the Nazis left two open to serve some 200,000 souls. Thirteen churches were simply locked and abandoned; six became warehouses; four, including the cathedral, were used as furniture storage centers. In Lodz, only four churches were allowed to remain open to serve 700,000 Catholics.  

And in Holland the hierarchy issued a pastoral letter condemning the mistreatment of the Jews which the Nazi's responded to by rounding up as many Dutch Jews as they could find (including Anne Frank and Edith Stein) and deporting them to death camps.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/persecution/pch0024.html
A Dutch bishops' pastoral letter condemning "the unmerciful and unjust treatment meted out to Jews" was read in Holland's Catholic churches in July 1942. The well-intentioned letter — which declared that it was inspired by Pius XII — backfired. As Pinchas Lapide notes: "The saddest and most thought-provoking conclusion is that whilst the Catholic clergy in Holland protested more loudly, expressly, and frequently against Jewish persecutions than the religious hierarchy of any other Nazi-occupied country, more Jews — some 110,000 or 79 percent of the total — were deported from Holland to death camps."

The American Archbishop (future Cardinal) Spellman broadcast an appeal for Catholic disobedience to Nazi racist violence in Hungary
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,852088,00.html
"Almost on the feast of Pentecost (May 28), the day on which the Church of Christ emphasizes the supranational, supraracial character of her mission, we learned that the Government of Hungary had agreed to enforce against the Jewish people a code of discriminatory laws. ....This announcement has shocked all men and women who cherish a sense of justice and of human sympathy. It is in direct contradiction of the doctrines of the Catholic Faith professed by the vast majority of the Hungarian people. . . . .It seems incredible, therefore, that a nation which has been so consistently true to the impulses of human kindness and the teachings of the Catholic Church should now yield to a false, pagan code of tyranny because of blood and race. How can men of good will fail to heed those solemn words of Pope Pius XI: 'Abraham is called our patriarch, our ancestor. Anti-Semitism is not compatible with the sublime reality of this text. It is a movement in which we Christians cannot share. Spiritually we are Semites.'

"To this day, the coinage and the postage stamps of the country bear the figure of Mary, the Mother of Mankind. It would be all the more tragic, therefore, if a people so devoted to Mary, the Jewish Maiden who was the Mother of the Messiah, freely countenance cruel laws calculated to despoil and annihilate the race from which Jesus and Mary sprang.

Logged

Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.
SDMPNS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: raised in Metropolia which became the OCA now I belong to a GOA parish..
Posts: 540


Praise God for the beauty of Creation


« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2009, 06:38:06 AM »

My greatgrandmother and grandmother who were Orthodox hid Jews from the germans in their house in Paris.They are numbered before the Rightous at Vad Yashem..My grandmother said that many Roman Catholic nuns helped them by bringing extra food and helping to hide children in convents.
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2009, 08:35:57 AM »

i am not sure what a troll is. Except that it has something to do with an ad hominem argument.
Not exactly. Trolling is a metaphor taken from fishing. When trolling, one may hold a line out behind the boat while moving it slowly in an attempt to convince the fish that the lure is a living creature of some sort. Then the fish bite, and the angler has dinner. The same thing applies to an Internet troll. Such a poster posts inflammatory things in an attempt to elicit a response. They are typically not interested in conversation; they just want to trap someone in their words.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,441



« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2009, 10:52:58 AM »

I'm trying figure out why a photo of Franco was included since he kept Spain rigidly neutral in WWII. 

If this were a case of offering counter examples, here is a letter written by an RC bishop protesting the killing of the mentally ill at the order of the Nazi regime:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Limburg.htm
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,441



« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2009, 11:00:53 AM »

The problem is that many of the reports on WWII are contradictory and it is not all that easy to find out what really happened. What ws the extent of the Catholic collaboration with the Ustase during WWII? IF there was no collaboration, then how do you explain the existence of the ratlines according to which many of the Nazi war criminals escaped with the aid of priests in the Vatican?

The work of individuals rather then an organization such as a Church, maybe. 

It can be work to discern good history from bad.  Finding out something of the author or organization that is reporting something is helpful.   Reading things from primary sources, eye witnesses, and with documentation is good, too.  For my research into Japan in WWII I have books (translated into English) by Japanese people who were involved in the government and collections of statements by people who lived through the war years in that country.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Aidan
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 126



« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2009, 11:47:15 AM »

I haven't bothered to read the arguements put forward. Suffice to say the pics don't prove anything except, in some cases, how confused and complicit some prelates were.

One thing I can definitely say, the picture of the Dominican monk is in fact a picture of a Carthusian one, an enclosed order that has an immaculate record of resisting evil during the French revolution and under dear old Henry Vlll. Also he is watching some (Brownshirts?) drinking water.

Come on now you Catholics, every picture most certainly does not tell a story.
Logged
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2009, 11:52:01 AM »

Sorry i don't see any trolls or swine in his post,why are the catholic posters against historical documentation being posted here ,that's bringing the darkness that happened into the light of day,,,just curious...Arn't we suppose to learn from history and not repeat the darkness..... Huh Huh

I haven't posted or visited this forum for a while, but just checked in today and it was the first thread on my "unread posts since last visit" list.

stashko, just want to let you know, one reason for not bringing up the sins and failings of the Catholic church throughout history every time you get the chance is that it drives people like me - Catholics who feel strongly drawn towards Orthodoxy - away.  Pointing fingers and shouting, "Evil Sinner!" at the church I belong to is not the way to attract me to your beliefs. Embarrassed

Back to exploratory mode, for a while, I guess ... sorry ...  Cry
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 11:52:28 AM by theistgal » Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2009, 12:31:07 PM »

I suppose I (or anyone) could post articles, pictures and information about the Orthodox Church has also been involved in some pretty awful and evil things throughout history, but would it matter? Sheesh...the direction this whole board is taking is getting to be just a bit weird. No one's hands are clean, including the Orthodox who have done some pretty nasty things both centuries ago and in modern times. ironically I have a feeling the OP of this thread was probably of an Evangelical Protestant background as his religion simply says "christian".....strange enough the two Churches that have the most in common end up fighting/arguing the most.

Logged
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2009, 12:32:37 PM »


stashko, just want to let you know, one reason for not bringing up the sins and failings of the Catholic church throughout history every time you get the chance is that it drives people like me - Catholics who feel strongly drawn towards Orthodoxy - away.  Pointing fingers and shouting, "Evil Sinner!" at the church I belong to is not the way to attract me to your beliefs. Embarrassed

Back to exploratory mode, for a while, I guess ... sorry ...  Cry

POST OF THE MONTH NOMINEE!

Logged
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2009, 01:22:45 PM »

My greatgrandmother and grandmother who were Orthodox hid Jews from the germans in their house in Paris.They are numbered before the Rightous at Vad Yashem..My grandmother said that many Roman Catholic nuns helped them by bringing extra food and helping to hide children in convents.
That is highly commendable, I think Stanley should remember that our late pope did something very similar as a young priest in Poland, during that era.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 01:23:42 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2009, 01:28:19 PM »

I'm trying figure out why a photo of Franco was included since he kept Spain rigidly neutral in WWII

If this were a case of offering counter examples, here is a letter written by an RC bishop protesting the killing of the mentally ill at the order of the Nazi regime:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Limburg.htm
Ironically, I know of a number of Spaniards that still admire Franco for preventing furthur distruction to their country by not entering the war.

 He was a Fascist, but was he comparable to Hitler?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 01:41:44 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,441



« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2009, 02:05:12 PM »

I'm trying figure out why a photo of Franco was included since he kept Spain rigidly neutral in WWII

If this were a case of offering counter examples, here is a letter written by an RC bishop protesting the killing of the mentally ill at the order of the Nazi regime:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Limburg.htm
Ironically, I know of a number of Spaniards that still admire Franco for preventing furthur distruction to their country by not entering the war.

 He was a Fascist, but was he comparable to Hitler?

I don't think so. From my readings he did not, in fact, take Spain in a particularly fascistic direction.   He did run Spain for decades with suppression of some groups and a strong will.  But he specifically designated the grandson of the previous king of Spain, Prince Juan Carlos to be his successor in 1969 and allowed the Prince to actually lead the country when he was ill in the last couple of years of his life.  Upon his death the royal family was restored.  This is, I think, rather different then the way Hitler ran Germany.  Spain did not invade France or Portugal or do a number of things that were done by Nazi Germany. He also supported the RCC as the official religion of Spain and apparently practiced that faith which would explain the photo of him taking communion.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,928


« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2009, 02:34:24 PM »

Romania & Bulgaria were axis nation in WW II & what is the predominant church in those nations? Of course, the church is really not the issue here.
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2009, 03:03:39 PM »

You aren't interested in learning about anything on this forum---you're here to hate on Catholics. My advice: Stay on the Orthodox sections of this Orthodox board, for your own good.
I think that Catholics and others as well,  have  a lot to learn from Serbian Orthodox whose families suffered terribly during WWII.  It is important to know what happened and why so that we  can work and pray to avoid such disasters in the future.  Just sweeping things under the rug and burying your head in the sand like an ostrich, will not help anything.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2009, 03:10:25 PM »



I would like to know what happened during WWII, and how much is true and how much is exaggerated. Now we see that according to the post by Philokalia that the Pope was supposed to be pro-Jewish? But then how does that explain the reports of the existence of the so-called ratlines. Were not Vatican priests, such as Bishop Hudal and Father Draganovic actively involved in helping Nazis and Ustase war criminals escape. And were there not many Catholic priests involved with the Croatian Ustase movement?

You could try following the links I gave. The fact is that there are tens of millions of Catholics in Europe and at the time of the Nazi era some behaved honourably, some behaved disgracefully and most tried to get by as best they could. None, of course, had the gift of hindsight which we possess. If we speak though of "The Catholic Church" as an entity then it is to her "official" actions and words that we must look for guidance as to what she believed and what she desired her faithful children to do. In that respect we can look to the example of the martyr Church in Poland.
http://felsztyn.tripod.com/germaninvasion/id8.html
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=472&CFID=8493276&CFTOKEN=44530630
The Catholic Church in Poland was especially hard hit by the Nazis. In 1939, 80 percent of the Catholic clergy and five of the bishops of the Warthegau region had been deported to concentration camps. In Wroclaw, 49.2 percent of the clergy were dead; in Chelmno, 47.8 percent; in Lodz, 36.8 percent; in Poznan, 31.1. In the Warsaw diocese, 212 priests were killed; 92 were murdered in Wilno, 81 in Lwow, 30 in Cracow, thirteen in Kielce. .....Of 690 priests in the Polish province of West Prussia, at least 460 were arrested....Of the arrested priests, 214 were executed...Of the city of Poznan's 30 churches and 47 chapels, the Nazis left two open to serve some 200,000 souls. Thirteen churches were simply locked and abandoned; six became warehouses; four, including the cathedral, were used as furniture storage centers. In Lodz, only four churches were allowed to remain open to serve 700,000 Catholics.  

And in Holland the hierarchy issued a pastoral letter condemning the mistreatment of the Jews which the Nazi's responded to by rounding up as many Dutch Jews as they could find (including Anne Frank and Edith Stein) and deporting them to death camps.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/persecution/pch0024.html
A Dutch bishops' pastoral letter condemning "the unmerciful and unjust treatment meted out to Jews" was read in Holland's Catholic churches in July 1942. The well-intentioned letter — which declared that it was inspired by Pius XII — backfired. As Pinchas Lapide notes: "The saddest and most thought-provoking conclusion is that whilst the Catholic clergy in Holland protested more loudly, expressly, and frequently against Jewish persecutions than the religious hierarchy of any other Nazi-occupied country, more Jews — some 110,000 or 79 percent of the total — were deported from Holland to death camps."

The American Archbishop (future Cardinal) Spellman broadcast an appeal for Catholic disobedience to Nazi racist violence in Hungary
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,852088,00.html
"Almost on the feast of Pentecost (May 28), the day on which the Church of Christ emphasizes the supranational, supraracial character of her mission, we learned that the Government of Hungary had agreed to enforce against the Jewish people a code of discriminatory laws. ....This announcement has shocked all men and women who cherish a sense of justice and of human sympathy. It is in direct contradiction of the doctrines of the Catholic Faith professed by the vast majority of the Hungarian people. . . . .It seems incredible, therefore, that a nation which has been so consistently true to the impulses of human kindness and the teachings of the Catholic Church should now yield to a false, pagan code of tyranny because of blood and race. How can men of good will fail to heed those solemn words of Pope Pius XI: 'Abraham is called our patriarch, our ancestor. Anti-Semitism is not compatible with the sublime reality of this text. It is a movement in which we Christians cannot share. Spiritually we are Semites.'

"To this day, the coinage and the postage stamps of the country bear the figure of Mary, the Mother of Mankind. It would be all the more tragic, therefore, if a people so devoted to Mary, the Jewish Maiden who was the Mother of the Messiah, freely countenance cruel laws calculated to despoil and annihilate the race from which Jesus and Mary sprang.


I don’t see any explanation here for the ratlines setup by Vatican officials to expedite the escape of Nazi war criminals to Argentina and elsewhere.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2009, 03:15:41 PM »

The work of individuals rather then an organization such as a Church, maybe. 
Maybe. But still, it looks like a whole lot of Catholics were helping out the Ustase and that Catholicism was part of their platform. It is not pretty. Especially the torture at the concentration camps. Why did this happen? How can it be prevented in the future? Do Serbian Orthodox have a justifiable reason to be wary of collaboration with Roman Catholics?
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2009, 03:29:55 PM »

I'm trying figure out why a photo of Franco was included since he kept Spain rigidly neutral in WWII

If this were a case of offering counter examples, here is a letter written by an RC bishop protesting the killing of the mentally ill at the order of the Nazi regime:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Limburg.htm
Ironically, I know of a number of Spaniards that still admire Franco for preventing furthur distruction to their country by not entering the war.

 He was a Fascist, but was he comparable to Hitler?

Look at what was happening to Spain before he took over, and look what has happened to Spain after his death.

Logged
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2009, 03:41:59 PM »

The work of individuals rather then an organization such as a Church, maybe. 
Maybe. But still, it looks like a whole lot of Catholics were helping out the Ustase and that Catholicism was part of their platform. It is not pretty. Especially the torture at the concentration camps. Why did this happen? How can it be prevented in the future? Do Serbian Orthodox have a justifiable reason to be wary of collaboration with Roman Catholics?
Why don't you ask your priest? That's a good place to start.
Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2009, 03:57:20 PM »

You aren't interested in learning about anything on this forum---you're here to hate on Catholics. My advice: Stay on the Orthodox sections of this Orthodox board, for your own good.
I think that Catholics and others as well,  have  a lot to learn from Serbian Orthodox whose families suffered terribly during WWII.  It is important to know what happened and why so that we  can work and pray to avoid such disasters in the future.  Just sweeping things under the rug and burying your head in the sand like an ostrich, will not help anything.

And do Orthodox have a lot to learn from Bosnians and Kosovar Albanians and their families who suffered under attacks from Serbs? And so on and so on. Do you see how silly this sort of grievance game is? Especially on an Internet board?

What am I supposed to "learn" from or apologize for Ustasha crimes against Serbs 65 years ago? I'm an American Catholic of Italian descent with no connections to Croatia whatsoever.  Just as most Orthodox have nothing to do with Serbia, Bosnia, or Kosovo.

While we're at it, maybe I should apologize for slavery on this board too, since I'm an American (whose family came here in 1912, but I guess that doesn't matter).

Such apologies cheapen other, more meaningful apologies.

Nobody's denying here that Catholics are subject to the Fall just like everyone else. What I find perplexing is the reason for this thread---to debate an extremely complex historical controversy...on an Internet board.

The lawsuit against the Vatican Bank about alleged transfer of Ustasha gold has been bouncing around US courts (US courts? God knows why) for 10 years. If 10 years of legal wrangling can't work it out, why would a thread on an EO Internet board do it?

« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 04:01:51 PM by lubeltri » Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2009, 04:00:58 PM »

Do Serbian Orthodox Serbs have a justifiable reason to be wary of collaboration with Roman Catholics Croats?

That's the more relevant question, and even then, I wonder whether that is even relevant when most Croats today weren't even living almost 70 years ago.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2009, 04:16:05 PM »

The work of individuals rather then an organization such as a Church, maybe. 
Maybe. But still, it looks like a whole lot of Catholics were helping out the Ustase and that Catholicism was part of their platform. It is not pretty. Especially the torture at the concentration camps. Why did this happen? How can it be prevented in the future? Do Serbian Orthodox have a justifiable reason to be wary of collaboration with Roman Catholics?
Why don't you ask your priest? That's a good place to start.
He said that he was not a historian, but that he was going to check with his cousin who knew a little more. But that was a while ago and I haven't heard anything about it since.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2009, 04:19:46 PM »

The lawsuit against the Vatican Bank about alleged transfer of Ustasha gold has been bouncing around US courts (US courts? God knows why) for 10 years. If 10 years of legal wrangling can't work it out, why would a thread on an EO Internet board do it?


I thought that for Christians the greatest virtue was charity and I don't see how lawyers are in anyway contributing to the discussion on how to increase charity between the different Christian groups?
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2009, 04:20:47 PM »

Do Serbian Orthodox Serbs have a justifiable reason to be wary of collaboration with Roman Catholics Croats?

That's the more relevant question, and even then, I wonder whether that is even relevant when most Croats today weren't even living almost 70 years ago.
But the hostility continues to some extent, even today, does it not?
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2009, 04:27:57 PM »

Do Serbian Orthodox Serbs have a justifiable reason to be wary of collaboration with Roman Catholics Croats?

That's the more relevant question, and even then, I wonder whether that is even relevant when most Croats today weren't even living almost 70 years ago.
But the hostility continues to some extent, even today, does it not?

Yes. And that is a tragedy.
Logged
Jimmy
Maronite
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Maronite Catholic
Posts: 203


« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2009, 04:41:24 PM »

Look at these children saluting Hitler.  Wait, no, that is the American flag.  Just because you see a couple bishops with their hands extended doesn't mean they supported Hitler.

http://www.kued.org/productions/2worlds/historical_images/salute.jpg
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2009, 02:12:58 AM »

Thankfully the RC Church has repudiated it's collaboration with fascism.  However, certain segments of the RC, most notably the Society of St Pius X (which is in negotiations for official reunion with the Vatican) are still heavily filled with Nazi/Fascist sympathizers and supporters.

The Pope, by attempting to bring RC traditionalsit back into his fold, may reactivate Catholic fascism though and he should tread this path carefully.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Tags: catholic nazism fascism 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.161 seconds with 72 queries.