Author Topic: Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia  (Read 1964 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline vasnTearn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 192
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« on: June 18, 2009, 04:10:48 AM »
there is still the Georgian Oriental Orthodox Church (non chalcedonian).


Really? Pravoslav09, maybe you're confusing something. Maybe you're confusing the Oriental Orthodox Armenians of Georgia with the Georgians themselves.


Offline IPC

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 11:04:54 AM »
Isn't this an Oriental Orthodox Church?

http://www.patriarchate.ge/

As far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, in Georgia there are the Oriental Orthodox Patriarchate (jacobites who refused the leadership of Antioch), the georgian orthodox under the Moscow Patriarchate, and other groups.

But you're right, I could be wrong, recent history in Georgia, specially after the revolution, is quite complicated.



« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 11:15:28 AM by Pravoslav09 »
THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,542
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 01:32:43 PM »
Isn't this an Oriental Orthodox Church?

http://www.patriarchate.ge/


I don't read Georgian, but I'm pretty sure that is the website for the Georgian Orthodox Church, which is Eastern Orthodox, not Oriental Orthodox.


Quote
As far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, in Georgia there are the Oriental Orthodox Patriarchate (jacobites who refused the leadership of Antioch),

You seem to be referring to Syriac Orthodox Christians.  There may be some Syriac Christians there, but I don't know.  The main OO group over there is the Armenian Orthodox Church.


Quote
the georgian orthodox under the Moscow Patriarchate, and other groups.
I don't think the Georgian Orthodox would like to be referred to as being under the Moscow Patriarchate.  They have their own patriarchate, which is not under Moscow, and is in fact more ancient.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 01:33:46 PM by Salpy »

Offline IPC

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2009, 10:26:56 PM »
Salpy,

I think you're mistaken.

As far as I know, the leading Oriental Orthodox Church in Georgia is Georgian, and is now headed by His Holiness and Beatitude, Illia II Archbishop of Mtskheta-Tbilisi and Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia, and they are not from the syriac tradition (syrians), they are more closely related to the Byzantine Empire, at the time Oriental Orthodoxy gained the good favour of the Emperor.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 10:36:34 PM by Pravoslav09 »
THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,542
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 10:35:43 PM »
This topic was split off from the Oriental Orthodox Music thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9840.msg332885.html#msg332885
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 10:36:52 PM by Salpy »

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,542
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2009, 10:45:39 PM »
Salpy,

I think you're mistaken.

As far as I know, the leading Oriental Orthodox Church in Georgia is Georgian, and is now headed by His Holiness and Beatitude, Illia II Archbishop of Mtskheta-Tbilisi and Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia, and they are not from the syriac tradition (syrians), they are more closely related to the Byzantine Empire, at the time Oriental Orthodoxy gained the good favour of the Emperor.



Patriarch Ilia is definitely Eastern Orthodox. 

The Georgian Church initially rejected Chalcedon during the 500's.  However, in the early 600's they accepted Chalcedon.  Ever since then, they have been Chalcedonian.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 10:50:01 PM by Salpy »

Offline IPC

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 308
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2009, 11:31:40 PM »
Thank you for the information Salpy, I'll do more research about it.

THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,264
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2009, 11:47:44 PM »
Salpy,

I think you're mistaken.

As far as I know, the leading Oriental Orthodox Church in Georgia is Georgian, and is now headed by His Holiness and Beatitude, Illia II Archbishop of Mtskheta-Tbilisi and Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia, and they are not from the syriac tradition (syrians), they are more closely related to the Byzantine Empire, at the time Oriental Orthodoxy gained the good favour of the Emperor.



Patriarch Ilia is definitely Eastern Orthodox. 

The Georgian Church initially rejected Chalcedon during the 500's.  However, in the early 600's they accepted Chalcedon.  Ever since then, they have been Chalcedonian.

PS09
I've already posted on Georgia's autocephaly from the sources:
Interesting bit on the autocephaly of Georgia:
Quote
And they came to the borders of Armenia and Byzantine lands...
http://rbedrosian.com/gc5.htm

Note: the granting of the 12 bishops was to make the Catholicos fully ennabled to act as an autocephalos Church.
C. Peter ruled (467-474)

Imperial policy did not swing to the non-Chalcedonians until the Henotikon of 482.  Gennadios I succeeded St. Anatolius (who presided over Chalcedon) as EP in 458 (to 471): he had opposed St. Cyril, his works latter quoted as being worse than the letter of Ibas.  He reconciled with St. Cyril at Ephesus.

The Emperor exiled the non-Chalcedonian successor of Dioscoros when the Chalcedonian successor was murdered, in 460, on the advice of Gennadios, on the word of Pope Leo (who wrote the famous Tome at Chalcedon).  Exiled to Sevastopol, Crimea, towards Georgia.

The Georgian royal family did marry into the Imperial family (the Helen in the linked post), all of whom were Chalcedonians.

The Patriarch of Antioch who made Georgia autocephalous was non-Chalcedonian, Peter (the Fuller).
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 11:48:59 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2009, 03:37:52 PM »
Don't OOs in Georgia consist also from some Armenians apart from Jacobites?
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Andrew21091

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,272
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2009, 04:11:21 PM »
Isn't this an Oriental Orthodox Church?

http://www.patriarchate.ge/

As far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, in Georgia there are the Oriental Orthodox Patriarchate (jacobites who refused the leadership of Antioch), the georgian orthodox under the Moscow Patriarchate, and other groups.

But you're right, I could be wrong, recent history in Georgia, specially after the revolution, is quite complicated.

The website you posted is the site of the Georgian Patriarch as you can see, His Holiness Patriarch Ilia II is pictured on the site and he is Eastern Orthodox.

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,264
Re: Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2009, 06:07:08 PM »
Don't OOs in Georgia consist also from some Armenians apart from Jacobites?

Consist meaning what?  They got their alphabet and former royal families from the Armenians, and the Armenians had a hand in the Christinization, but the jurisdiction issue over Armenia is complex enough, let alone what supervision they had over Georgia, before Georgia finally went Chalcedonian.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2009, 06:11:47 PM »
I meant whether Jacobites aren't the only one Oriental Orthodox in Georgia and wondered whether are there any Armenians also.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline Salpy

  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,542
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2009, 06:35:57 PM »
There is a large Armenian community in Georgia.

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,264
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2009, 07:19:38 PM »
There is a large Armenian community in Georgia.

From what I understand, a persecuted one.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline vasnTearn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 192
Re: Orthodox Christians of Georgia
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2009, 07:22:53 AM »
There is a large Armenian community in Georgia.

From what I understand, a persecuted one.

Unfortunately, you are right. The Armenian Church in Georgia isn't yet even registered. The Georgian Church uses every means to appropriate the Armenian churches. It's very difficult for Armenians to defend their rights there. Well, I'll not continue. This is enough.