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Author Topic: Devotion to Blessed Virgin Mary  (Read 14152 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2009, 02:55:57 AM »

The history of Isis, the icons of her and her son Horus and the subsequent adaptation of the certain traditions associated with this cult into early Christianity is readily available. I doubt you will find the history in Chick tracts (I don't know as I have never read one).
Here's an excerpt from a Jack Chick tract supporting your rubbish:


http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


I also wanted to know what the Church Fathers had to say regarding devotion to Mary. Do you have that information? If you don't, then don't answer.

I once lived across from a "church" whose pastor used to harass (and violate federal law) us by placing these tracts in our mailbox.  Seems they figured us out as Catholic when the Catholic school bus would pick us up in the morning and we'd be in dress pants, jackets and ties.  We never said anything to them.  Their "church" went out-of-business a year after we moved into that town.
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« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2009, 02:59:52 AM »

The history of Isis, the icons of her and her son Horus and the subsequent adaptation of the certain traditions associated with this cult into early Christianity is readily available. I doubt you will find the history in Chick tracts (I don't know as I have never read one).
Here's an excerpt from a Jack Chick tract supporting your rubbish:


http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


I also wanted to know what the Church Fathers had to say regarding devotion to Mary. Do you have that information? If you don't, then don't answer.


You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
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« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2009, 03:09:16 AM »

You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
Have you seen what's in your avatar? And no, the pope is not my god, neither is Mary. The pope is simply the Bishop of Rome to me. That's one of his titles, you know?
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« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2009, 03:16:44 AM »

You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
Have you seen what's in your avatar? And no, the pope is not my god, neither is Mary. He is simply the Bishop of Rome to me. That's one of his titles, you know?

Yes i did notice my avatar i don't see rays shooting out of her hands ,i do see her pointing to Christ our redeemer....there is a big difference between us in how we honor Mary...
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« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2009, 03:31:52 AM »

Yes i did notice my avatar i don't see rays shooting out of her hands ,i do see her pointing to Christ our redeemer....there is a big difference between us in how we honor Mary...
It's still unacceptable by the majority of Protestants, but we are straying off topic here.
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« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2009, 10:48:44 AM »

Irenaeus Chapter XIX.—A comparison is instituted between the disobedient and sinning Eve and the Virgin Mary, her patroness. Various and discordant heresies are mentioned.

1.That the Lord then was manifestly coming to His own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation which is supported by Himself, and was making a recapitulation of that disobedience which had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience which was [exhibited by Himself when He hung] upon a tree, [the effects] also of that deception being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled,—was happily announced, through means of the truth [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also espoused] to a man. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way the sin of the first created man receives amendment by the correction of the First-begotten, and the coming of the serpent is conquered by the harmlessness of the dove, those bonds being unloosed by which we had been fast bound to death.

___

The above moves far beyond Paul's comparison between the first Adam and the second Adam. The problems with the comparison are numerous, but it is this position later paves the way for the RC Mariology. Earlier, Ignatius expounded upon the growing popularity of Mary;

___


Ignatius, and the brethren who are with him, to John the holy presbyter.
WE are deeply grieved at thy delay in strengthening us by thy addresses and consolations. If thy absence be prolonged, it will disappoint many of us. Hasten then to come, for we believe that it is expedient. There are also many of our women here, who are desirous to see Mary [the mother] of Jesus, and wish day by day to run off from us to you, that they may meet with her, and touch those breasts of hers which nourished the Lord Jesus, and may inquire of her respecting some rather secret matters. But Salome also, [the daughter of Anna,] whom thou lovest, who stayed with her five months at Jerusalem, and some other well-known persons, relate that she is full of all graces and all virtues, after the manner of a virgin, fruitful in virtue and grace. And, as they report, she is cheerful in persecutions and afflictions, free from murmuring in the midst of penury and want, grateful to those that injure her, and rejoices when exposed to troubles: she sympathizes with the wretched and the afflicted as sharing in their afflictions, and is not slow to come to their assistance. Moreover, she shines forth gloriously as contending in the fight of faith against the pernicious conflicts of vicious principles or conduct. She is the lady of our new religion and repentance, and the handmaid among the faithful of all works of piety. She is indeed devoted to the humble, and she humbles herself more devotedly than the devoted, and is wonderfully magnified by all, while at the same time she suffers detraction from the Scribes and Pharisees. Besides these points, many relate to us numerous other things regarding her. We do not, however, go so far as to believe all in every particular; nor do we mention such to thee. But, as we are informed by those who are worthy of credit, there is in Mary the mother of Jesus an angelic purity of nature allied with the nature of humanity. And such reports as these have greatly excited our emotions, and urge us eagerly to desire a sight of this (if it be lawful so to speak) heavenly prodigy and most sacred marvel. But do thou in haste comply with this our desire; and fare thou well. Amen.

_____

Mary was revered as a godly woman, but not as the mediator between man and God (the role already claimed by Jesus).

Even the Catholic Encyclopedia states "This doctrine is not contained, at least explicitly, in the earlier forms of the Apostles’ Creed, there is perhaps no ground for surprise if we do not meet with any clear traces of the cultus of the Blessed Virgin in the first Christian centuries".

Justin and others were seeking to spread the gospel and often used the religion and philosophy of the local people as proof texts for their arguments. Subsequent generations followed in like suit. In Ephesus, Diana was replaced with Mary, and some the attributes of Diana were naturally ascribed to Mary. The temple of Isis in Rome was eventually replaced with a temple dedicated to Mary, and is now known as St. Maria sopra Minerva. It is only natural that people carry their baggage with them to new endeavors, even when converting from one religion to another. Being intellectually honest enough to admit it is something that doesn't come as naturally.

Grace and Peace, Joseph
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« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2009, 02:18:30 PM »

Indeed the above quotes speak highly of the Virgin Mary. I think I have seen the quote from St. Ignatius before, and it's authenticity is doubted, at least by most scholars. You have quoted from writings that are deemed Pseudo-Ignatius, a separate variety of works that historians believe were not written by St. Ignatius. The authenticity of  St. Irenaeus' writings however, are not questioned, at least the particular writing you quoted from. 

I might want to add, however, that the works of the early church fathers must not be taken as theological constitutions. Many people make the mistake that just because a certain doctrine is mentioned in a letter, it therefore must have been the moment that doctrine was created. This is not so. Using that logic, one could also make an argument against Trinitarianism, and say that all Christians were Jehovah's Witnesses until Pope Dionysius thoroughly explained the Holy Trinity in the 3rd century. The quote from St. Irenaeus that you provided is from his work "Against Heresies." That entire work is a defense of orthodox Christianity against gnostic innovations. It is very conservative, and intolerant of new theology. It would seem inconsistent that he would just start inventing new doctrines while at the same time he is arguing against innovation.  One must also remember that St. Irenaeus did not live long after the apostles, in fact, he received his teachings from St. Polycarp who had received some his teachings from St. John the Apostle (and possibly other apostles).

The pagan parallels can be used for almost anything, and I've seen them used not just as an argument against the veneration of saints (in particular the Virgin Mary), but also as an argument against Sunday worship, Jesus as God, and in fact the whole story of Jesus' life. The virgin birth is seen in many older pagan religions, and many people claim Christianity stole its rituals (like baptism) from the old pagan cult called Mithraism (although St. Justin Martyr accused Mithraism of stealing Christian rituals). The Flood story is also seen in many pagan religions. Sure, Isis may have similarities to the Virgin Mary, but does that automatically mean the Church borrowed that legend for the purpose of gaining pagan converts? How could the Church be freely borrowing pagan doctrines, but at the same time strongly arguing against gnosticism, Docetism, and other heresies clearly of pagan origin?
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« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2009, 03:03:22 PM »

Indeed, the writings of the Fathers should be tested, but by what criteria? By sola scritpura as the Reformers claimed? By the view of the current pope? By Tradition? Which Tradition? The fact is that we inherit a splintered Christianity, with all sorts of additions, myths and misrepresentations due to countless interjections from many schools of thought. We are left to "work out our own salvation" which involves grasping what we believe to be authentic expressions of the Faith and casting aside that which we believe to be falsehoods. Determining context, studying the scriptures and spending time fasting and praying all play a significant role in our journey. Seeing that Jesus is my Lord and He never told me to pray to Mary or venerate her as the Mother of God, I don't feel inclined to do so. I can't find the Church praying to Mary in the first hundred years of the Church age, but as the Church moves into areas that were already worshipping various female deities, I see prayers to Mary developing. I would ere on the side of caution and obey my Lord rather than be found dividing my loyalty between God and Mary. I don't condemn anyone for not sharing identical convictions, nor would I expect to be condemned me for having them. Lord have mercy.

Grace and Peace, Joseph   
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« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2009, 03:27:46 PM »

Indeed, the writings of the Fathers should be tested, but by what criteria? By sola scritpura as the Reformers claimed? By the view of the current pope? By Tradition? Which Tradition? The fact is that we inherit a splintered Christianity, with all sorts of additions, myths and misrepresentations due to countless interjections from many schools of thought. We are left to "work out our own salvation" which involves grasping what we believe to be authentic expressions of the Faith and casting aside that which we believe to be falsehoods. Determining context, studying the scriptures and spending time fasting and praying all play a significant role in our journey. Seeing that Jesus is my Lord and He never told me to pray to Mary or venerate her as the Mother of God, I don't feel inclined to do so. I can't find the Church praying to Mary in the first hundred years of the Church age, but as the Church moves into areas that were already worshipping various female deities, I see prayers to Mary developing. I would ere on the side of caution and obey my Lord rather than be found dividing my loyalty between God and Mary. I don't condemn anyone for not sharing identical convictions, nor would I expect to be condemned me for having them. Lord have mercy.

Grace and Peace, Joseph   

I have been praying to the Blessed Mother for my entire life (almost 34 years now) and I can certainly say that there is no divided loyalty between God and Mary.  God is the Be All, End All and all my prayers to the Blessed Mother have ever done is help me to get closer to God and to honor Him through her.  Just because some people have what may very well be an unorthodox view of Mary (even in the Orthodox Church!) doesn't mean that the underlying practice is wrong; the individual is the one in error.  As many have pointed out, most every icon of Mary shows her with her Son and she is pointing to Him.  I've known this even as a small child growing in the Roman Catholic Church.  Every single Protestant who has a problem with the veneration of Mary never seems to get it: we (and I use this we as a general, "orthodox" we) know what we are doing.
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« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2009, 12:48:28 AM »

Indeed, the writings of the Fathers should be tested, but by what criteria? By sola scritpura as the Reformers claimed? By the view of the current pope? By Tradition? Which Tradition? The fact is that we inherit a splintered Christianity, with all sorts of additions, myths and misrepresentations due to countless interjections from many schools of thought. We are left to "work out our own salvation" which involves grasping what we believe to be authentic expressions of the Faith and casting aside that which we believe to be falsehoods. Determining context, studying the scriptures and spending time fasting and praying all play a significant role in our journey. Seeing that Jesus is my Lord and He never told me to pray to Mary or venerate her as the Mother of God, I don't feel inclined to do so. I can't find the Church praying to Mary in the first hundred years of the Church age, but as the Church moves into areas that were already worshipping various female deities, I see prayers to Mary developing. I would ere on the side of caution and obey my Lord rather than be found dividing my loyalty between God and Mary. I don't condemn anyone for not sharing identical convictions, nor would I expect to be condemned me for having them. Lord have mercy.

Grace and Peace, Joseph   

The Scriptures cannot speak of the Church in its entirety. All we have is a few letters that were luckily saved along with the Gospels. Who knows what else Christ said, and what else the Apostles said? All I can say is that even the Apostles spoke of an oral tradition:
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thessalonians 2:15
You may not see any explicit mention of prayer to Mary within the first one hundred years of Christianity, but did anyone speak out against prayer to Mary when it was supposed have been invented? The Church took to combatting Arianism, Montanism, Docetism, etc., but not one person said anything when prayer to Mary was supposed to have been invented.

Again, I might want to say you can pull out a whole lot of pagan parallels to much much more than veneration of the Mother of God. Anti-Christian polemics use the example of the Roman god Mithra who died and resurrected after three days. Mithra was also called  the son of God.
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« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2009, 11:40:04 AM »

JosephM,

The writings of the fathers are our fountaine of truth , and spring of water; used for dogmatics , doctrines and reproof.The authority of the Fathers in the Church is undoubtless before the era of the schism.Where the Church is there is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is the one who spoke in the seven Councils of the Church , under wich the doctrine of our Church was established.Those councils were established to refute the heresies and with them the heretics.The Holy Spirit spoke there in the Councils , where the majoritan revealing of the Scriptures trough the Fathers were the same.In the same spirit , trough the grace of the Holy Spirit and Christ.The Tradition is the treasure the Church has as inheritance from the Fathers , the doctrines and the dogmas of the Church , represent the creed of the seven councils.The devotion to Virgin Mary dates since the first councils , maybe even sooner.We see that the Mother of Jesus is one of the few women mentioned in the Gospel with name, esspecially in the Acts , when she is mentioned at the Pentecost with name along with the apostles , she is distinguished.(Acts 1:14).I found quotes of Origen about the Devotion to Theotokos (248 AD).As a general theology the importance of the Theotokos is recognise between the apostle , esspecially of the apostle Luke.Mary had an important role into the Salvation of humanity , She is the vessel who carried and bear our Lord and Saviour , Jesus Christ.She bear the one the heavens can`t bear , the Word of God , trought the grace of God.As it is written in you , the child wich you will give birth the Son of God shall be called.Jesus took His humanity from Mary , He was incarnate from the Virgin.A quote from a site : "A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ. "

Jesus is refered to in the Pauline epitles as our brother , if He is our brother then Mary is our Mother.Mary is the Spiritual Mother of all Christians as we are all one in Christ.Therefore a Church Fathers says : "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother" St Cyprian of Carthage

Read his entire sermon about that here : http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/14439.htm

Also we know as it is written in Galatians 4:26 “But the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.”
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« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2009, 12:36:47 PM »

The devotion to Mary is from the time of the Apostles .From the beginning of the Church Mary has been seen as the Mother of us all by reason of our being members of Christ her Son. St. Justin the Philosopher (died 165) saw Mary as a model of the Church. He and later Fathers, such as St. Irenaeus, a disciple of St. Polycarp who was himself taught by the Apostle John, all saw Mary as the New Eve :

 As St. Irenaeus says, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed through the obedience of Mary; for what Eve, a virgin, bound by her unbelief, that Mary, a virgin, unloosed by her faith [Against the Heresies, III, xxii, 4].

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« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2009, 04:50:36 PM »



You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
This may, in fact, be one of the most ridiculous posts that I have ever read. You have hymns in your tradition that plead, "Mary, save us," and you make the ridiculous charges that you do. Face it, my dear brother in Christ, neither of our Churches is guilty of worshiping Mary.
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« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2009, 04:12:36 AM »



You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
This may, in fact, be one of the most ridiculous posts that I have ever read. You have hymns in your tradition that plead, "Mary, save us," and you make the ridiculous charges that you do. Face it, my dear brother in Christ, neither of our Churches is guilty of worshiping Mary.


What....  Huh
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« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2009, 02:14:06 PM »

I find it funny because Martin Luther had a devotion to the Blessed Mother and he even taught the IC.

Just my 2 cents



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« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2009, 02:45:48 PM »

Through the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us!
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« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2009, 02:46:11 PM »



You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
This may, in fact, be one of the most ridiculous posts that I have ever read. You have hymns in your tradition that plead, "Mary, save us," and you make the ridiculous charges that you do. Face it, my dear brother in Christ, neither of our Churches is guilty of worshiping Mary.

Don't misinterpret our tradition, brother Papist... There's a difference between the two ways one can save: 'to redeem' and 'to rescue'. The first one is reserved to Jesus alone (that's why the word 'co-redemptrix' makes us suffer stomachache) and the second is 'to rescue' meaning to come and help us, which is the typical way Mary is represented as our protector (in iconography this is represented as the prototype "Protection (pokrov) of the Mother of God"
http://incommunion.org/img/pokrov.jpg

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2009, 03:36:14 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the Catholic Church has ever officiay proclaimed Mary as 'co-redemptrix'-At least I hope not!!! Sad
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« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2009, 04:40:22 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the Catholic Church has ever officially proclaimed Mary as 'co-redemptrix'-At least I hope not!!! Sad

Not quite yet, but I suspect I'll see an 'ex-cathedra' before my repose...
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« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2009, 04:48:25 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the Catholic Church has ever officially proclaimed Mary as 'co-redemptrix'-At least I hope not!!! Sad

Not quite yet, but I suspect I'll see an 'ex-cathedra' before my repose...
Then before your repose you may see me in your parish as a Catechumen.  Grin
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« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2009, 06:03:19 PM »

The same fact that such a word is ALLOWED makes me suffer in pain, dear Altar Server...
Well, Orthodoxy's doors are always open!  Wink
Anyway, I still hope RCism doesn't get so far from the original message of Christianity...

In Christ, your brother Alex
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« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2009, 06:21:38 PM »

Yes the word sends shivers down my spine, and well I hope we don't get any farther from the original message of Christianity.


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« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2009, 04:38:05 AM »

Whats the Orthodox interpretation of Luke 11:27-28 with regards to the veneration of Mary?

As Jesus was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “How blessed is the womb that gave birth to you and the breasts that nursed you!” But he said, “Rather, how blessed are those who hear God's word and obey it!” (ISV)

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« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2009, 08:10:11 AM »

Whats the Orthodox interpretation of Luke 11:27-28 with regards to the veneration of Mary?

As Jesus was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “How blessed is the womb that gave birth to you and the breasts that nursed you!” But he said, “Rather, how blessed are those who hear God's word and obey it!” (ISV)



Orthodox Study Bible:  God's blessing falls not on those who have prominent family connections, but upon those who hear the word of God and keep it.  Jesus is stating a principle, not denigrating His mother; she both heard God's word and kept it, and thus became the most blessed of women (1:28-31, 42)
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« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2009, 08:20:24 AM »

Whats the Orthodox interpretation of Luke 11:27-28 with regards to the veneration of Mary?

As Jesus was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “How blessed is the womb that gave birth to you and the breasts that nursed you!” But he said, “Rather, how blessed are those who hear God's word and obey it!” (ISV)

Luke 1:38 "...Mary said, "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord!  Let it be to me according to your word....(41-5)...when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.  Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb!  But why is it granted to me, that the mother of My Lord should come to me? For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.  Blessed is she who believed....(46-48) And Mary said...For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed....(2:19) Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart....(51) Then He went down with them and came to Nazareth and was subject to them, but His mother kept all these things in her heart."

The Fathers teach that the Theotokos conceived Christ through the ear: she heard the Word of God, and kept it.

Btw, Luke 11:27-8 is the Gospel reading for every feast of the Theotokos (except the Annuciation), so we are quite familiar with the text.
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« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2009, 05:12:45 PM »

So Jesus is stating that Mary is not blessed because she bore him, but solely for her obedience? In this sense, is he not then saying that all others who hear the word of God and obey it are blessed just the same?  I guess I was under the impression that the primary reason that she is venerated today has to do with the fact that she is the "Theotokos", not because of her obedience. If the latter was the only criteria for being blessed, then I believe a case could be made that several old testament figures were equally as obedient to God's word. I'm not trying to pin anyone down here, I'm just trying to get behind the rationale for veneration.
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« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2009, 05:44:07 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the Catholic Church has ever officiay proclaimed Mary as 'co-redemptrix'-At least I hope not!!! Sad

It hasn't and I hope that it doesn't. Even if it is explained in a subordinated way, there are those for whom that point will be lost. I remember it was August 15 in the mid-1980s, which is a day of obligation in the United States for Catholics. By chance, the closest parish was Byzantine Catholic, not Latin , and the priest spoke about the meaning of the expression Theotokos. I always preferred God-bearer to Mother of God, even though they are rough analogs. The priest said that in iconography she always is pointing to Jesus. This is as it should be, and I would be troubled if this declaration came to pass.

I grabbed this form a Catholic thread and it turns out at least one Catholic is not enamored with the title:

Quote
Ratzinger said, “I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand, which in the meantime is being supported by several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.

The Cardinal continues: "What is true here? Well, it is true that Christ does not remain outside us or to one side of us, but builds a profound and new community with us. Everything that is his becomes ours, and everything that is ours he has taken upon himself, so that it becomes his: this great exchange is the actual content of redemption, the removal of limitations from our self and its extension into community with God. Because Mary is the prototype of the Church as such and is, so to say, the Church in person, this being “with” is realized in her in exemplary fashion.

"But this “with” must not lead us to forget the “first” of Christ: Everything comes from Him, as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything that she is through Him.

"The word 'Co-redemptrix,'" Ratzinger went on to say, "would obscure this origin. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language." (God and the World, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2000)
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« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2009, 05:50:45 PM »

So Jesus is stating that Mary is not blessed because she bore him, but solely for her obedience? In this sense, is he not then saying that all others who hear the word of God and obey it are blessed just the same?  I guess I was under the impression that the primary reason that she is venerated today has to do with the fact that she is the "Theotokos", not because of her obedience. If the latter was the only criteria for being blessed, then I believe a case could be made that several old testament figures were equally as obedient to God's word. I'm not trying to pin anyone down here, I'm just trying to get behind the rationale for veneration.

You speaks as if they are contradictory rather than complimentary.
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« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2009, 08:06:29 AM »

Prayer FOR Mary

Making use of this thread on devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary to ask any Eastern Catholics on the Forum if their devotion includes praying FOR Mary and FOR the Saints.

Elsewhere it is being said , and quite insistently, by both lay people and even one EC clergyman, that Catholics not only pray to Mary but they also pray FOR her, for an increase in deification and virtue.

Despite several requests nobody has been able to offer an example of such prayers though.
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« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2009, 05:40:20 PM »

The earliest most pronounced reverence to Mary that i've seen is expressed in the small paraklesis written in the 9th century.

http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/mikropar.htm
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« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2009, 05:43:11 PM »

Prayer FOR Mary

Making use of this thread on devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary to ask any Eastern Catholics on the Forum if their devotion includes praying FOR Mary and FOR the Saints.

Elsewhere it is being said , and quite insistently, by both lay people and even one EC clergyman, that Catholics not only pray to Mary but they also pray FOR her, for an increase in deification and virtue.

Despite several requests nobody has been able to offer an example of such prayers though.

Hmm interesting. That sounds like a good idea to me. 
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« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2009, 08:45:08 PM »

In light of all the talk about this and that not being in the Bible and thus we shouldn't do it...

Is there any example of prayers being addressed to Jesus?  If not, then given that Protestants all pray to Christ (at least I think they do, don't they?), wouldn't this be an example of an extra-biblical tradition in the context of prayer that they're practicing?
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« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2009, 08:47:27 PM »

In light of all the talk about this and that not being in the Bible and thus we shouldn't do it...

Is there any example of prayers being addressed to Jesus?  If not, then given that Protestants all pray to Christ (at least I think they do, don't they?), wouldn't this be an example of an extra-biblical tradition in the context of prayer that they're practicing?

All Protestants also believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, which is extra-Scriptural. It is a mistake to think that 'sola scriptura' is taken literally by any but the lunatic fringe.

It also occurs to me that the Jesus prayer is described in Acts, for what it is worth. Invocation of the Name is the simplest (some would say the most powerful) form of prayer ... and there's little doubt to whom it is addressed!
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« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2009, 09:23:17 PM »

Sorry to double-post, it seems to be my besetting sin to jump in to a thread before I've got my ideas straight.  Sad

The early suggestion that veneration of Mary began in the Dark Ages is probably a misunderstanding based on a grain of truth. In the Western (Catholic) Church, devotions to Mary became immensely more popular during the early Middle Ages, because it became the custom for lay people to recite a simplified version of the complicated monastic routine of daily prayer. The monastic routine, obviously, had parts devoted to God in His three Persons, to the various saints, to important events and festivals, and to Mary - but because prayers to Mary were a standard, much-repeated part of the routine, it was this part that was taken and given to lay people for their daily prayer routine. I think it's probably this increase in affection for/visibility of Mary that is being referred to in the mistaken source that says veneration of Mary began in the Dark Ages.

Btw, re:

Quote

What do we make then, of the passage when the woman calls out "blessed is the womb that bore you..." and then Jesus says, "no, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it" ? Not trying to throw in a monkey wrench here, - really - but that has confused me for a long time.   

Mary heard, and indeed bore, the Word. I think this passage was perhaps trying to combat a heresy we don't often think of now - the idea that Mary was only a vessel, not a saintly person in her own right. Yes, of course Mary bore Jesus - but we should respect her as far more than 'the womb': she is the a person whose holiness marked her out before the Incarnation.

That's how I'd understand those two quotations, anyway.
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« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2009, 10:01:49 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

LOL!

That's such BS!

There's one example that immediately comes to mind that debunks that.

The First Council of Ephesus in 431 and the title Theotokos!

That's a primarily Eastern Christian council that dates before the Dark Ages. And that's just at what immediately came to mind. I have no doubt Marian devotion predated Ephesus.
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« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2009, 10:06:44 PM »


The LCMS has become almost Nestorian in their understanding of Mary and Christ.

Wow, that's crazy. Given that the Lutheran Confessions and Scholastics had the most radically affirming view of the communicatio idiomatum that I've ever seen and thus are more Monophysite than anything.
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« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2009, 10:07:38 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

LOL!

That's such BS!


*Giggles* Friend, your words may not be elegant but boy are they right! A friend I'm chatting with atm (neither of us can sleep!) has this rather sweet observation: Surely Jesus loved and honoured His mother? All little babies naturally think their mothers are wonderful people. And did not God choose her before all time? Since Jesus knew Mary's saintliness before time, and had a human baby's love and respect for His mother, how can we deny that veneration of Mary began long before the Scriptures were written?!
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« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2009, 11:57:30 PM »

I do not think that one can come to the Church's reverance/veneration of Mary (or the saints, for that matter) as the primary area of inquiry into Orthodoxy or Catholicism. If one starts there, there is no DNA in protestants to accept any of the arguments we might offer. And there are too many memes in their experience to automatically discount any argument we make as out of hand. Give them George Gabriel's (the translator of Fr. Romanides' Ancestral Sin) book, Mary, the Untrodden Portal or Scott Hahn's book, Hail Holy Queen. It won't make any difference.

One comes to the acceptance of the Church's veneration of Mary by coming to the Church by other means. One answers key questions (for example, for me it was Apostolic succession and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, then everything else could be accepted) then comes to an acceptance of all the Church's dogmas. Or one works through 101 questions and concludes that questions 102 through 202 will also pan out so I should just accept the Church's teaching (on Mary and everything else).

I have NEVER heard of a convert working through the issue of Mary as the passageway into Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

I have heard numerous accounts of people for whom Mary was a huge stumbling block, but after confronting other issues and coming up with affirmatives they finally came to see the Church's teaching on Mary.

I think if the prayer had been written in the post-reformation context we would pray at liturgy," I will not speak of Thy mystery to thine enemies; nor will I speak of Thy most blessed Mother, but like the thief I will confess thee."
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« Reply #83 on: September 20, 2009, 05:12:01 AM »

Mary is a help for the christians , many christians here in Romania are devoted to Mary, esspecially women.
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« Reply #84 on: September 20, 2009, 09:54:22 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

LOL!

That's such BS!


*Giggles* Friend, your words may not be elegant but boy are they right! A friend I'm chatting with atm (neither of us can sleep!) has this rather sweet observation: Surely Jesus loved and honoured His mother? All little babies naturally think their mothers are wonderful people. And did not God choose her before all time? Since Jesus knew Mary's saintliness before time, and had a human baby's love and respect for His mother, how can we deny that veneration of Mary began long before the Scriptures were written?!

That is an astonishing observation from a Protestant! Very un-common.

My sister thinks I am breaking Mosaic law against necromancy by praying to saints or to Mary.
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« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2009, 12:39:55 AM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

LOL!



That's such BS!


*Giggles* Friend, your words may not be elegant but boy are they right! A friend I'm chatting with atm (neither of us can sleep!) has this rather sweet observation: Surely Jesus loved and honoured His mother? All little babies naturally think their mothers are wonderful people. And did not God choose her before all time? Since Jesus knew Mary's saintliness before time, and had a human baby's love and respect for His mother, how can we deny that veneration of Mary began long before the Scriptures were written?!

That is an astonishing observation from a Protestant! Very un-common.

My sister thinks I am breaking Mosaic law against necromancy by praying to saints or to Mary.

Liz is basically one of us, she just doesn't know it yet  Cheesy  Wink
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« Reply #86 on: September 21, 2009, 06:34:32 AM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

LOL!



That's such BS!


*Giggles* Friend, your words may not be elegant but boy are they right! A friend I'm chatting with atm (neither of us can sleep!) has this rather sweet observation: Surely Jesus loved and honoured His mother? All little babies naturally think their mothers are wonderful people. And did not God choose her before all time? Since Jesus knew Mary's saintliness before time, and had a human baby's love and respect for His mother, how can we deny that veneration of Mary began long before the Scriptures were written?!

That is an astonishing observation from a Protestant! Very un-common.

My sister thinks I am breaking Mosaic law against necromancy by praying to saints or to Mary.

Liz is basically one of us, she just doesn't know it yet  Cheesy  Wink

 Cheesy

Oi!  (Btw, you've just made me laugh so loud I knocked a facsimile of a medieval psalter to the floor ... now, was that really Christian of you?!)

Brother Aidan, I spend so much time reading and thinking about late-medieval devotion, I tend to have a fund of ideas about Mary and how people have venerated her. I have to say (just to disappoint you) that I don't, personally, pray to Mary because for me it would not feel right.

Not quite one of you yet, eh?

In all seriousness, what I really objected to was the ignorance and prejudice in the claim that veneration of Mary began in the Dark Ages. However I may feel about veneration of Mary, that is a really stupid, rude thing to say, which only proves that the speaker is unaware of history.
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« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2009, 03:01:02 AM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.

He refers to the dark ages as being from 500 to 1000 AD. Is this even historically correct??
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« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2009, 03:46:58 AM »

He refers to the dark ages as being from 500 to 1000 AD. Is this even historically correct??

Accurate enough.  The term Dark Ages is a ambiguous and problematic on many levels.  The way this presbyter was using the term is in a more popular fashion, so he was referring to what might more accurately be dubbed the Early Middle Ages.
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« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2009, 04:06:27 AM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.

He refers to the dark ages as being from 500 to 1000 AD. Is this even historically correct??

Depends on who you ask.

The Dark Ages are generally considered to fall between 500-1000. But on the other hand, that time period wasn't really that Dark. The term "Dark Ages" refers to the lack of written records from this period, not the fact that it was somehow more backwards than another age.
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