OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 24, 2014, 05:53:10 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Devotion to Blessed Virgin Mary  (Read 15263 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« on: June 18, 2009, 03:53:50 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 04:14:46 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 04:10:26 PM »

Luke 1:48 is where it began. "For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed."

Also, according to Church tradition, I believe St. Luke himself wrote the first icon of the Theotokos, and (I could be wrong on this part) composed the first hymn to her.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
SDMPNS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: raised in Metropolia which became the OCA now I belong to a GOA parish..
Posts: 540


Praise God for the beauty of Creation


« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 04:29:40 PM »

The Blessed Virgin Mary was honored from the early days and I am sure held in high esteem..She was with the apostles in the upper room on Pentecost.
I can see why a protestant would want this devotion to start in the middle ages.Protestants always talk about the Church of the Apostles,,,,well...thats what Orthodoxy is...if they look at the First Century Church they will have to deal with this fact...and they do not want to do that...maybe because of the ethnic club crap or some other issue the Evil One whispers in their ears
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2009, 04:45:02 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

It intrigues me that it is one of the commonest hymns loved by the Orthodox and the choir will often start to sing it spontaneously if they need to "fill in" some gap in the Service.  And when you suggest to people at home "Let's say some prayers" this is often what they start to sing.

Here is a small Wikipedia article on this ancient prayer to Mary the Mother of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 04:50:23 PM »

When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother.

John 19:26-27

Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,944



« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2009, 04:59:54 PM »

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.
Now this is interesting. That's made by a pastor of Missouri-Synod and they have a statue of Theotokos in one of their churhes. Is that an extreme anomaly or is that pastor representing some low church wing of Missouri-Synod?
Logged

username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2009, 05:09:17 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

It intrigues me that it is one of the commonest hymns loved by the Orthodox and the choir will often start to sing it spontaneously if they need to "fill in" some gap in the Service.  And when you suggest to people at home "Let's say some prayers" this is often what they start to sing.

Here is a small Wikipedia article on this ancient prayer to Mary the Mother of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium



Thanks now I have Sub tuum praesidium stuck in my mind.. not a bad thing either Smiley
Of course the Gregorian Chant version... I could only find a short clip of it for you all on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPEXrrFEf5A
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 05:15:12 PM by username! » Logged

ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2009, 05:24:04 PM »

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.
Now this is interesting. That's made by a pastor of Missouri-Synod and they have a statue of Theotokos in one of their churhes. Is that an extreme anomaly or is that pastor representing some low church wing of Missouri-Synod?
Which church is this?
Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,944



« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2009, 05:37:54 PM »

Which church is this?

Zion Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Detroit
Logged

scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,241



« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2009, 05:58:34 PM »

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.
Now this is interesting. That's made by a pastor of Missouri-Synod and they have a statue of Theotokos in one of their churhes. Is that an extreme anomaly or is that pastor representing some low church wing of Missouri-Synod?

The LCMS has become almost Nestorian in their understanding of Mary and Christ.  A lot of "baptist" Lutherans will shudder at calling Mary, the Mother of God or Theotokos, even though that particular title was used in the old 1943 hymnal, which is still fairly commonplace in many LCMS congregatinos.  Rather than call Mary, MOther of God, they will call her Mother of Christ, which, in Greek, would be Christotokos and that is precisely the kind of talk that got Nestorius condemned at Ephesus in 431.  The LCMS has really turned her back on the appropriate honour due to Mary even though Luther himself was very devoted to our Lady.  The reason they do so is avoid any hint of Catholcisim.  Romaphobia is very prevalent in many LCMS congregations.  Again, they're becoming more Baptist.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
zoarthegleaner
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 398



« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2009, 06:09:51 PM »

Historical devotion to her began when the Angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of Grace..."
Devotion was furthered when Gabriel appeared to Joseph in a dream...
It was again manifest when Elizabeth met her with a salutation after experiencing the devotion of her unborn firstborn within her womb and she was subsequently filled with the Holy Ghost.
It was again realized when Symeon made prophesies about her...
It was again manifest at the wedding feast...
It was again manifest when she was blessed by the women who were attempting to bless our Lord...
It was manifest when our Lord commended her care and welfare into the hands of John the Beloved..
It was again manifest in Acts when the Disciples were gathered around Her...

These do not exhaust all the passages of Scripture concerning her...
Logged

Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2009, 06:31:00 PM »

Look at that, another vague narrative about the corruption of the Church.  So with him it did not start with "evil" Constantine, but rather with the "Dark Ages."

It's all about not being Catholic with these people.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2009, 06:47:51 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.

Here it is:

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 “And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44 “For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45 “And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”

Mat. 2:11 After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2009, 06:51:00 PM »

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.
Now this is interesting. That's made by a pastor of Missouri-Synod and they have a statue of Theotokos in one of their churhes. Is that an extreme anomaly or is that pastor representing some low church wing of Missouri-Synod?

The LCMS has become almost Nestorian in their understanding of Mary and Christ.  A lot of "baptist" Lutherans will shudder at calling Mary, the Mother of God or Theotokos, even though that particular title was used in the old 1943 hymnal, which is still fairly commonplace in many LCMS congregatinos.  Rather than call Mary, MOther of God, they will call her Mother of Christ, which, in Greek, would be Christotokos and that is precisely the kind of talk that got Nestorius condemned at Ephesus in 431.  The LCMS has really turned her back on the appropriate honour due to Mary even though Luther himself was very devoted to our Lady.  The reason they do so is avoid any hint of Catholcisim.  Romaphobia is very prevalent in many LCMS congregations.  Again, they're becoming more Baptist.

I remember that when I was Lutheran as a kid, the Virgin Mary (or rather, just Mary) made a guest appearance at Christmas (hard to have a birth without a mother. Not that Protestants don't try).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2009, 07:01:41 PM »

I remember that when I was Lutheran as a kid, the Virgin Mary (or rather, just Mary) made a guest appearance at Christmas (hard to have a birth without a mother. Not that Protestants don't try).

That is very true!  You see her in nativity scenes, and that is it!  Anything beyond that would be considered scandalous.

A Presbyterian I know has the idea that him simply acknowledging that she was blessed to have borne God in the flesh is all he is obligated to.  Much as his faith in Christ itself, it is an intellectual assenting to a proposition.  So agreeing that she is blessed covers it.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2009, 07:08:05 PM »

Here is a small Wikipedia article on this ancient prayer to Mary the Mother of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

I took the liberty of fixing the picture in the corner.  No sense in having a Renaissance painting with a Coptic hymn.  I would have used something more ancient and specifically Coptic if I had such an icon, but for the time being that should do.
Logged
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2009, 07:58:06 PM »

Here is quote from St. Irenaeus (2nd Century):

Quote
(Eve), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.

Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 22)

If you read the whole thing (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103322.htm), you will see Irenaeus compares the Virgin Mary to Eve quite often, not only in chapter 22, but other chapters in his Against Heresies (the whole thing is on the Catholic Encyclopedia).
Logged

signature
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2009, 08:05:45 PM »

I remember that when I was Lutheran as a kid, the Virgin Mary (or rather, just Mary) made a guest appearance at Christmas (hard to have a birth without a mother. Not that Protestants don't try).

The Lutheran church where I was confirmed has 'Ave Maria' written above the doors, and she is of course featured on the stained glass windows. So she wasn't entirely absent. However, very little attention is given to anything dogmatic or theological at all. Sermons were always about morals and every day life. Never did I hear any real mention of the Trinity or the Incarnation, so it would really surprise me if the blessed Virgin was given any time at all.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2009, 08:38:08 PM »

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2009, 09:00:34 PM »

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.

I've just known this forever so I suppose the source is the blog in my head which passes for a brain.   Smiley
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2009, 09:03:09 PM »

I remember that when I was Lutheran as a kid, the Virgin Mary (or rather, just Mary) made a guest appearance at Christmas (hard to have a birth without a mother. Not that Protestants don't try).

The Lutheran church where I was confirmed has 'Ave Maria' written above the doors, and she is of course featured on the stained glass windows. So she wasn't entirely absent. However, very little attention is given to anything dogmatic or theological at all. Sermons were always about morals and every day life. Never did I hear any real mention of the Trinity or the Incarnation, so it would really surprise me if the blessed Virgin was given any time at all.

Are you Norwegian?  It makes a difference.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2009, 09:08:26 PM »

[I've just known this forever so I suppose the source is the blog in my head which passes for a brain.   Smiley


There is good reason to believe that this may be termed a lived prayer - one
whose words were fashioned out of pressing need. When it was first used by
Christians, the "dangers" mentioned were a harsh reality for those who
uttered the words - dangers that spelled fierce persecution and horrible
death. For although this deceptively simple prayer was once regarded as
dating from the Middle Ages, it really goes back to third-century Egypt.

At that time, Christians were being battered by the persecution of the Roman
Emperors Septimius Severus (193-211) and Decius (249-251) and decimated by
deportations. Therefore, it was all too natural for such a short spontaneous
prayer to rise constantly to their lips. From them, it passed on to other
Christians, especially in their worship.

In the Coptic Rite of the third century, for instance, the Sub Tuum was part
of the liturgical office of Christmas. At the end of that century, Patriarch
Theonas of Alexandria built the first real church for local Christians (who
prior to that time were accustomed to assemble in homes and cemeteries) and
called it the Church of St Mary Virgin and Mother of God. Thus, it is
evident that Alexandrian Christians were already calling Mary the "Mother of
God" in the third century - long before St Athanasius, who was usually
credited with coining the phrase.

Indeed, the title "Mother of God" was a traditional one in Egypt even before
the advent of Christianity. It was originally the title given to Isis,
mother of the god Horus. The Coptic Christians, quite naturally, bestowed
this title on Mary - and they did so even before the Council of Ephesus
officially endorsed this exalted title for Mary in 431.

In addition, the great Alexandrian theologian Origen, who lived at the
beginning of the third century, set forth the reason why Mary could
rightfully be called the Mother of God. And the Greek term for "Mother of
God," Theotokos - because of its popularity in the Egyptian Church - became
a hallowed Marian title.

Thus, the Sub Tuum may be regarded as a precious heritage of the Egyptian
Church, which tradition tells us was founded by St Mark the Evangelist. It
is just another of the contributions of this Church that aided the formation
of the Christian Faith and also assisted at the birth of the monastic
movement.

In 1917, an innocent-looking papyrus leaf originating in Egypt found its way
into the John Rylands Library of Manchester, England. This set in motion a
series of events that had a great effect on Mariology. By the time the
experts completed their painstaking work of examining this three-and-a-half
by seven inch papyrus and the ten lines of Greek letters inscribed in
capitals on it, the year was 1938 and the term "Mother of God" was proven to
have been addressed to Mary a hundred years before previously thought.

For those who have thought this material looks familiar----

Here are two sources for this material:

Source #1 (Copyright 2003):
here

Source #2: here

The posting of these links will relieve OC.net of any statutory burden regarding plagiarism and the posting of copyrighted material.

+FrChris
Admin
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 08:15:55 AM by FrChris » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2009, 09:12:43 PM »

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.

Greek Papyrus 470 in the John Rylands Library, Manchester, England
http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/eresources/imagecollections/
On the Insight Browser Viewer, search by Reference Number for
Greek  Papyrus 470, and then click on it to activate the magnify and zoom
functions.

Better yet:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_IY755_iUePk/RrqBwR2tyAI/AAAAAAAAARI/aoIHtrSlg4U/s1600-h/johnrylands470.jpg
http://theoblogoumena.blogspot.com/2007/08/john-rylands-papyrus-470.html

Theotokos is the first word in the fourth line.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 09:20:49 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Jimmy
Maronite
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Maronite Catholic
Posts: 203


« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2009, 09:55:02 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.

the miaphysites like Severus of Antioch in the end of the fifth century/beginning of the sixth had strong devotions to Mary and celebrated feasts to her.  I have read this from Severus himself.  I would guess that it came long before that too.
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,241



« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2009, 10:10:29 PM »

We should also remember that the refrain for the 9th ode of the Canon (More honourable than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim...) was composed by st. Ephraim the Syrian and he lived in the early fourth century.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2009, 10:46:36 PM »

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.

I've just known this forever so I suppose the source is the blog in my head which passes for a brain.   Smiley
laugh
Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2009, 12:23:22 AM »

Indeed, the title "Mother of God" was a traditional one in Egypt even before
the advent of Christianity. It was originally the title given to Isis,
mother of the god Horus. The Coptic Christians, quite naturally, bestowed
this title on Mary - and they did so even before the Council of Ephesus
officially endorsed this exalted title for Mary in 431.

I am sorry to nitpick here, but can anyone provide evidence for the title Theotokos being previously ascribed to Isis?  It seems to me that it would be another point in favor of the critique that the Christian Church combated goddess worship with a goddess disguised in Christian terminology.
Logged
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,823


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2009, 01:03:31 AM »

This was touched on here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11813.0.html
Logged

Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2009, 12:29:02 PM »

Are you Norwegian?  It makes a difference.

Yes. I was under the impression that your Lutheran background was also due to Norwegian heritage, hence my comparison.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,359


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2009, 02:24:34 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.
There is a prayer to the Virgin Mary in the third century Alexandrian Liturgy. The third century is hardly the middle ages.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 02:26:24 PM by Papist » Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2009, 03:13:31 PM »

Are you Norwegian?  It makes a difference.

Yes. I was under the impression that your Lutheran background was also due to Norwegian heritage, hence my comparison.

No, it was the Swedish and Prussian part, but close enough.

Norway was dragged into the reformation by Denmark, and Sweden was more like England than it was like Germany and Denmark: more reform, less radicalism. So a lot of things remained that the Danish and Germans, going for radical scrubbing, did away with.

So the German church we went to was much more low church, whereas Norway and Sweden are more high church.  And hence "Ave Maria."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2009, 03:25:36 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.
There is a prayer to the Virgin Mary in the third century Alexandrian Liturgy. The third century is hardly the middle ages.
Which one is it?
Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,359


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2009, 03:37:39 PM »

"Under your mercy, we take refuge, Mother of God, do not reject our supplications in necessity. But deliver us from danger. [You] alone chaste, alone blessed."
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2009, 04:14:09 PM »

"Under your mercy, we take refuge, Mother of God, do not reject our supplications in necessity. But deliver us from danger. [You] alone chaste, alone blessed."
Can you please tell me where it is documented as one of the oldest prayer to Our Blessed Mother?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 04:14:27 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
zoarthegleaner
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 398



« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2009, 07:21:58 PM »

I am sorry to nitpick here, but can anyone provide evidence for the title Theotokos being previously ascribed to Isis?  It seems to me that it would be another point in favor of the critique that the Christian Church combated goddess worship with a goddess disguised in Christian terminology.
--------------------------------------------

Isis was a goddess of silence (gave birth to silence).

The Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary gave real historical birth to God the Word.

Augustus who ruled Rome when the fullness of time came, was oppossed to the cult of Isis because of its pornographic rites and stopped the building of her temples because they perverted the moral fabric of Roman Society.  Even though these temples were being constructed to honor Julius Caeser who had been assassinated.

Modern cults of Isis are again appearing in conjunction with the rise of modern pornography.  Is this all incidental and circumstantial  or have we entered into that time when the demons which had been bound by the Church are being released upon the world again because of her Great Apostacy?

Augustus was oppossed to the Isis Cult at the time when the Virgin conceives and bears a Son.   Care to venture a guess as to which Roman Emperors were members of the cult of Isis?   Julian the Apostate was the last Emperor defender of that cult.
Logged

Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2009, 08:55:34 PM »

"Under your mercy, we take refuge, Mother of God, do not reject our supplications in necessity. But deliver us from danger. [You] alone chaste, alone blessed."
Can you please tell me where it is documented as one of the oldest prayer to Our Blessed Mother?

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.

Greek Papyrus 470 in the John Rylands Library, Manchester, England
http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/eresources/imagecollections/
On the Insight Browser Viewer, search by Reference Number for
Greek  Papyrus 470, and then click on it to activate the magnify and zoom
functions.

Better yet:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_IY755_iUePk/RrqBwR2tyAI/AAAAAAAAARI/aoIHtrSlg4U/s1600-h/johnrylands470.jpg
http://theoblogoumena.blogspot.com/2007/08/john-rylands-papyrus-470.html

Theotokos is the first word in the fourth line.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
believer74
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2009, 12:39:53 PM »

General reply to all, What do we make then, of the passage when the woman calls out "blessed is the womb that bore you..." and then Jesus says, "no, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it" ? Not trying to throw in a monkey wrench here, - really - but that has confused me for a long time.   
Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2009, 12:53:59 PM »

General reply to all, What do we make then, of the passage when the woman calls out "blessed is the womb that bore you..." and then Jesus says, "no, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it" ? Not trying to throw in a monkey wrench here, - really - but that has confused me for a long time.   

Hi friend,

 Could you provide book and verse #'s please?
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
JosephM
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 24


« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2009, 02:16:28 PM »

The claim that icons of Mary were penned or painted by Luke are questionable at best, expecially given the various conflicting legends and evidence to the contrary. What we do know is what Luke wrote in his Gospel;

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it." 

Luk 8:19 And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You." 21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." 
 
If you study the history of Isis and Horus, the role of Egyptian cults in Rome and the subsequent evangelization of that culture, the reasons for the ensuing veneration of Mary will become readily apparent. Titles such as Queen of Heaven and Mother of God originated in the veneration of Isis, long before Mary came along.

Grace and Peace, Joe
Logged
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2009, 07:26:40 PM »

The claim that icons of Mary were penned or painted by Luke are questionable at best, expecially given the various conflicting legends and evidence to the contrary. What we do know is what Luke wrote in his Gospel;

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."
Mary said in Luke 1:48

 48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
 
Quote
Luk 8:19 And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You." 21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." 
I wonder what  reformers like Martin Luther said about Mary's perpetual viriginty:

 It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin." (Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis,Volume 11, pp. 319-320).

John Calvin agreed with him:

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." (Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.)

Ulrich Zwingli had the following to say:

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." (E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.)



 
Quote
If you study the history of Isis and Horus, the role of Egyptian cults in Rome and the subsequent evangelization of that culture, the reasons for the ensuing veneration of Mary will become readily apparent. Titles such as Queen of Heaven and Mother of God originated in the veneration of Isis, long before Mary came along.

Grace and Peace, Joe
So this is a cult that came out of Rome? You're going to catch some flak. laugh
 Anyway, I wasn't looking for a fundamentalist Christian opinion because I have heard them all. I know their interpretations are erroneous  since they never did coincide with the Early Church Traditions nor Writings. I posed the question here becasue the Orthodox share the rich tradition of devotion to Mary. If I wanted an erroneous fundamentalist opinion I would have gone to a fundamentalist forum.

I think you have been reading too many Jack Chick comic books. I have seen those accusations in his propaganda. Time to read the something else.

Peace to you as well
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 07:50:21 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
believer74
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2009, 09:30:44 PM »

Joe, thank you for posting the verses in question. I was too lazy to do it the other night, LOL
OK, so, general question again for whomever, I noticed in one of the first Holy Week services I went to, the chant was "Most Holy Theotokos, save us." What does it mean to ask Mary to save us? I need to explore some of these ideas, I need people's input. Thanks. c
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 09:36:18 PM by believer74 » Logged
JosephM
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 24


« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2009, 10:37:52 PM »

The claim that icons of Mary were penned or painted by Luke are questionable at best, expecially given the various conflicting legends and evidence to the contrary. What we do know is what Luke wrote in his Gospel;

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."
Mary said in Luke 1:48

 48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
 
Quote
Luk 8:19 And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You." 21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." 
I wonder what  reformers like Martin Luther said about Mary's perpetual viriginty:

 It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin." (Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis,Volume 11, pp. 319-320).

John Calvin agreed with him:

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." (Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.)

Ulrich Zwingli had the following to say:

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." (E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.)



 
Quote
If you study the history of Isis and Horus, the role of Egyptian cults in Rome and the subsequent evangelization of that culture, the reasons for the ensuing veneration of Mary will become readily apparent. Titles such as Queen of Heaven and Mother of God originated in the veneration of Isis, long before Mary came along.

Grace and Peace, Joe
So this is a cult that came out of Rome? You're going to catch some flak. laugh
 Anyway, I wasn't looking for a fundamentalist Christian opinion because I have heard them all. I know their interpretations are erroneous  since they never did coincide with the Early Church Traditions nor Writings. I posed the question here becasue the Orthodox share the rich tradition of devotion to Mary. If I wanted an erroneous fundamentalist opinion I would have gone to a fundamentalist forum.

I think you have been reading too many Jack Chick comic books. I have seen those accusations in his propaganda. Time to read the something else.

Peace to you as well

Indeed, Mary is blessed among women, which I never called into question.

I am not a fundamental protestant, nor did I employ their tactics or use their arguments. If I would have side stepped the points, made personal attacks and generally ignored the subject at hand as you did in your reply, I could understand the accusation. The history of Isis, the icons of her and her son Horus and the subsequent adaptation of the certain traditions associated with this cult into early Christianity is readily available. I doubt you will find the history in Chick tracts (I don't know as I have never read one), but if you are truly interested in the historical perspective, Will Durant covered the subject pretty well. Ignoring history and making unfounded accusations won't get you far though. If you don't want the truth, don't ask for it.

Grace and Peace, Joseph

Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2009, 10:55:39 PM »

General reply to all, What do we make then, of the passage when the woman calls out "blessed is the womb that bore you..." and then Jesus says, "no, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it" ? Not trying to throw in a monkey wrench here, - really - but that has confused me for a long time.   

...
when the Theotokos had the Word of God announced to her by the angel Gabriel, what did she do? "Let it be unto me as the Lord has said". When Christ taught in the temple at age 12, what did the Theotokos do? "she kept these things in her heart."

Christ is, as he often did, playing with his listener's/questioner's expectations in order to make a point they need to hear. When the woman called that out, he could have merely nodded politely--but the woman wouldn't have learned anything nor would we. Instead, here (and in the other quoted verse) He makes a point to His audience that is what *they* (and we) need to hear about listening to His words and keeping them. He doesn't go on to point out that "and oh yes, my actual mother is an exemplar of what I'm saying about hearing the Word of God and keeping it" because its not relevant to the lesson He is teaching at that moment. Think of other items like "call no man Teacher" (which comes after 'call no man Father' but which unlike the first no one ever seems to take literally) where Christ uses these rhetorical devices.

But the Church has from very early (documented as shown to the 2nd-3rd century) recognized what Christ left unsaid in those verses.
.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2009, 01:07:37 AM »

If I would have side stepped the points, made personal attacks and generally ignored the subject at hand as you did in your reply, I could understand the accusation.
I think you side-stepped the issue by putting our Blessed Lady on par with Isis? Now you didn't expect that to be offensive? My question was regarding devotion to Mary within the Church. I didn't infer pagan origins, but I do think you read into that.

Quote
Ignoring history and making unfounded accusations won't get you far though
Likewise.

Quote
If you don't want the truth, don't ask for it.
I should've been more specific; I wanted an Orthodox perspective and I doubt I am getting that from you. I'll manage without your intellect.




« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 01:25:35 AM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2009, 02:30:12 AM »

The history of Isis, the icons of her and her son Horus and the subsequent adaptation of the certain traditions associated with this cult into early Christianity is readily available. I doubt you will find the history in Chick tracts (I don't know as I have never read one).
Here's an excerpt from a Jack Chick tract supporting your rubbish:



Here's another supporting you theory on Isis and Horus:




http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


I also wanted to know what the Church Fathers had to say regarding devotion to Mary. Do you have that information? If you don't, then don't answer.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:58:14 AM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2009, 02:55:57 AM »

The history of Isis, the icons of her and her son Horus and the subsequent adaptation of the certain traditions associated with this cult into early Christianity is readily available. I doubt you will find the history in Chick tracts (I don't know as I have never read one).
Here's an excerpt from a Jack Chick tract supporting your rubbish:


http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


I also wanted to know what the Church Fathers had to say regarding devotion to Mary. Do you have that information? If you don't, then don't answer.

I once lived across from a "church" whose pastor used to harass (and violate federal law) us by placing these tracts in our mailbox.  Seems they figured us out as Catholic when the Catholic school bus would pick us up in the morning and we'd be in dress pants, jackets and ties.  We never said anything to them.  Their "church" went out-of-business a year after we moved into that town.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:56:29 AM by username! » Logged

stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2009, 02:59:52 AM »

The history of Isis, the icons of her and her son Horus and the subsequent adaptation of the certain traditions associated with this cult into early Christianity is readily available. I doubt you will find the history in Chick tracts (I don't know as I have never read one).
Here's an excerpt from a Jack Chick tract supporting your rubbish:


http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


I also wanted to know what the Church Fathers had to say regarding devotion to Mary. Do you have that information? If you don't, then don't answer.


You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2009, 03:09:16 AM »

You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
Have you seen what's in your avatar? And no, the pope is not my god, neither is Mary. The pope is simply the Bishop of Rome to me. That's one of his titles, you know?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 03:14:13 AM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2009, 03:16:44 AM »

You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
Have you seen what's in your avatar? And no, the pope is not my god, neither is Mary. He is simply the Bishop of Rome to me. That's one of his titles, you know?

Yes i did notice my avatar i don't see rays shooting out of her hands ,i do see her pointing to Christ our redeemer....there is a big difference between us in how we honor Mary...
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2009, 03:31:52 AM »

Yes i did notice my avatar i don't see rays shooting out of her hands ,i do see her pointing to Christ our redeemer....there is a big difference between us in how we honor Mary...
It's still unacceptable by the majority of Protestants, but we are straying off topic here.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 03:35:59 AM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
JosephM
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 24


« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2009, 10:48:44 AM »

Irenaeus Chapter XIX.—A comparison is instituted between the disobedient and sinning Eve and the Virgin Mary, her patroness. Various and discordant heresies are mentioned.

1.That the Lord then was manifestly coming to His own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation which is supported by Himself, and was making a recapitulation of that disobedience which had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience which was [exhibited by Himself when He hung] upon a tree, [the effects] also of that deception being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled,—was happily announced, through means of the truth [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also espoused] to a man. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way the sin of the first created man receives amendment by the correction of the First-begotten, and the coming of the serpent is conquered by the harmlessness of the dove, those bonds being unloosed by which we had been fast bound to death.

___

The above moves far beyond Paul's comparison between the first Adam and the second Adam. The problems with the comparison are numerous, but it is this position later paves the way for the RC Mariology. Earlier, Ignatius expounded upon the growing popularity of Mary;

___


Ignatius, and the brethren who are with him, to John the holy presbyter.
WE are deeply grieved at thy delay in strengthening us by thy addresses and consolations. If thy absence be prolonged, it will disappoint many of us. Hasten then to come, for we believe that it is expedient. There are also many of our women here, who are desirous to see Mary [the mother] of Jesus, and wish day by day to run off from us to you, that they may meet with her, and touch those breasts of hers which nourished the Lord Jesus, and may inquire of her respecting some rather secret matters. But Salome also, [the daughter of Anna,] whom thou lovest, who stayed with her five months at Jerusalem, and some other well-known persons, relate that she is full of all graces and all virtues, after the manner of a virgin, fruitful in virtue and grace. And, as they report, she is cheerful in persecutions and afflictions, free from murmuring in the midst of penury and want, grateful to those that injure her, and rejoices when exposed to troubles: she sympathizes with the wretched and the afflicted as sharing in their afflictions, and is not slow to come to their assistance. Moreover, she shines forth gloriously as contending in the fight of faith against the pernicious conflicts of vicious principles or conduct. She is the lady of our new religion and repentance, and the handmaid among the faithful of all works of piety. She is indeed devoted to the humble, and she humbles herself more devotedly than the devoted, and is wonderfully magnified by all, while at the same time she suffers detraction from the Scribes and Pharisees. Besides these points, many relate to us numerous other things regarding her. We do not, however, go so far as to believe all in every particular; nor do we mention such to thee. But, as we are informed by those who are worthy of credit, there is in Mary the mother of Jesus an angelic purity of nature allied with the nature of humanity. And such reports as these have greatly excited our emotions, and urge us eagerly to desire a sight of this (if it be lawful so to speak) heavenly prodigy and most sacred marvel. But do thou in haste comply with this our desire; and fare thou well. Amen.

_____

Mary was revered as a godly woman, but not as the mediator between man and God (the role already claimed by Jesus).

Even the Catholic Encyclopedia states "This doctrine is not contained, at least explicitly, in the earlier forms of the Apostles’ Creed, there is perhaps no ground for surprise if we do not meet with any clear traces of the cultus of the Blessed Virgin in the first Christian centuries".

Justin and others were seeking to spread the gospel and often used the religion and philosophy of the local people as proof texts for their arguments. Subsequent generations followed in like suit. In Ephesus, Diana was replaced with Mary, and some the attributes of Diana were naturally ascribed to Mary. The temple of Isis in Rome was eventually replaced with a temple dedicated to Mary, and is now known as St. Maria sopra Minerva. It is only natural that people carry their baggage with them to new endeavors, even when converting from one religion to another. Being intellectually honest enough to admit it is something that doesn't come as naturally.

Grace and Peace, Joseph
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 10:49:24 AM by JosephM » Logged
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2009, 02:18:30 PM »

Indeed the above quotes speak highly of the Virgin Mary. I think I have seen the quote from St. Ignatius before, and it's authenticity is doubted, at least by most scholars. You have quoted from writings that are deemed Pseudo-Ignatius, a separate variety of works that historians believe were not written by St. Ignatius. The authenticity of  St. Irenaeus' writings however, are not questioned, at least the particular writing you quoted from. 

I might want to add, however, that the works of the early church fathers must not be taken as theological constitutions. Many people make the mistake that just because a certain doctrine is mentioned in a letter, it therefore must have been the moment that doctrine was created. This is not so. Using that logic, one could also make an argument against Trinitarianism, and say that all Christians were Jehovah's Witnesses until Pope Dionysius thoroughly explained the Holy Trinity in the 3rd century. The quote from St. Irenaeus that you provided is from his work "Against Heresies." That entire work is a defense of orthodox Christianity against gnostic innovations. It is very conservative, and intolerant of new theology. It would seem inconsistent that he would just start inventing new doctrines while at the same time he is arguing against innovation.  One must also remember that St. Irenaeus did not live long after the apostles, in fact, he received his teachings from St. Polycarp who had received some his teachings from St. John the Apostle (and possibly other apostles).

The pagan parallels can be used for almost anything, and I've seen them used not just as an argument against the veneration of saints (in particular the Virgin Mary), but also as an argument against Sunday worship, Jesus as God, and in fact the whole story of Jesus' life. The virgin birth is seen in many older pagan religions, and many people claim Christianity stole its rituals (like baptism) from the old pagan cult called Mithraism (although St. Justin Martyr accused Mithraism of stealing Christian rituals). The Flood story is also seen in many pagan religions. Sure, Isis may have similarities to the Virgin Mary, but does that automatically mean the Church borrowed that legend for the purpose of gaining pagan converts? How could the Church be freely borrowing pagan doctrines, but at the same time strongly arguing against gnosticism, Docetism, and other heresies clearly of pagan origin?
Logged

signature
JosephM
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 24


« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2009, 03:03:22 PM »

Indeed, the writings of the Fathers should be tested, but by what criteria? By sola scritpura as the Reformers claimed? By the view of the current pope? By Tradition? Which Tradition? The fact is that we inherit a splintered Christianity, with all sorts of additions, myths and misrepresentations due to countless interjections from many schools of thought. We are left to "work out our own salvation" which involves grasping what we believe to be authentic expressions of the Faith and casting aside that which we believe to be falsehoods. Determining context, studying the scriptures and spending time fasting and praying all play a significant role in our journey. Seeing that Jesus is my Lord and He never told me to pray to Mary or venerate her as the Mother of God, I don't feel inclined to do so. I can't find the Church praying to Mary in the first hundred years of the Church age, but as the Church moves into areas that were already worshipping various female deities, I see prayers to Mary developing. I would ere on the side of caution and obey my Lord rather than be found dividing my loyalty between God and Mary. I don't condemn anyone for not sharing identical convictions, nor would I expect to be condemned me for having them. Lord have mercy.

Grace and Peace, Joseph   
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,487


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2009, 03:27:46 PM »

Indeed, the writings of the Fathers should be tested, but by what criteria? By sola scritpura as the Reformers claimed? By the view of the current pope? By Tradition? Which Tradition? The fact is that we inherit a splintered Christianity, with all sorts of additions, myths and misrepresentations due to countless interjections from many schools of thought. We are left to "work out our own salvation" which involves grasping what we believe to be authentic expressions of the Faith and casting aside that which we believe to be falsehoods. Determining context, studying the scriptures and spending time fasting and praying all play a significant role in our journey. Seeing that Jesus is my Lord and He never told me to pray to Mary or venerate her as the Mother of God, I don't feel inclined to do so. I can't find the Church praying to Mary in the first hundred years of the Church age, but as the Church moves into areas that were already worshipping various female deities, I see prayers to Mary developing. I would ere on the side of caution and obey my Lord rather than be found dividing my loyalty between God and Mary. I don't condemn anyone for not sharing identical convictions, nor would I expect to be condemned me for having them. Lord have mercy.

Grace and Peace, Joseph   

I have been praying to the Blessed Mother for my entire life (almost 34 years now) and I can certainly say that there is no divided loyalty between God and Mary.  God is the Be All, End All and all my prayers to the Blessed Mother have ever done is help me to get closer to God and to honor Him through her.  Just because some people have what may very well be an unorthodox view of Mary (even in the Orthodox Church!) doesn't mean that the underlying practice is wrong; the individual is the one in error.  As many have pointed out, most every icon of Mary shows her with her Son and she is pointing to Him.  I've known this even as a small child growing in the Roman Catholic Church.  Every single Protestant who has a problem with the veneration of Mary never seems to get it: we (and I use this we as a general, "orthodox" we) know what we are doing.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2009, 12:48:28 AM »

Indeed, the writings of the Fathers should be tested, but by what criteria? By sola scritpura as the Reformers claimed? By the view of the current pope? By Tradition? Which Tradition? The fact is that we inherit a splintered Christianity, with all sorts of additions, myths and misrepresentations due to countless interjections from many schools of thought. We are left to "work out our own salvation" which involves grasping what we believe to be authentic expressions of the Faith and casting aside that which we believe to be falsehoods. Determining context, studying the scriptures and spending time fasting and praying all play a significant role in our journey. Seeing that Jesus is my Lord and He never told me to pray to Mary or venerate her as the Mother of God, I don't feel inclined to do so. I can't find the Church praying to Mary in the first hundred years of the Church age, but as the Church moves into areas that were already worshipping various female deities, I see prayers to Mary developing. I would ere on the side of caution and obey my Lord rather than be found dividing my loyalty between God and Mary. I don't condemn anyone for not sharing identical convictions, nor would I expect to be condemned me for having them. Lord have mercy.

Grace and Peace, Joseph   

The Scriptures cannot speak of the Church in its entirety. All we have is a few letters that were luckily saved along with the Gospels. Who knows what else Christ said, and what else the Apostles said? All I can say is that even the Apostles spoke of an oral tradition:
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thessalonians 2:15
You may not see any explicit mention of prayer to Mary within the first one hundred years of Christianity, but did anyone speak out against prayer to Mary when it was supposed have been invented? The Church took to combatting Arianism, Montanism, Docetism, etc., but not one person said anything when prayer to Mary was supposed to have been invented.

Again, I might want to say you can pull out a whole lot of pagan parallels to much much more than veneration of the Mother of God. Anti-Christian polemics use the example of the Roman god Mithra who died and resurrected after three days. Mithra was also called  the son of God.
Logged

signature
Dan-Romania
Warned
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 746


« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2009, 11:40:04 AM »

JosephM,

The writings of the fathers are our fountaine of truth , and spring of water; used for dogmatics , doctrines and reproof.The authority of the Fathers in the Church is undoubtless before the era of the schism.Where the Church is there is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is the one who spoke in the seven Councils of the Church , under wich the doctrine of our Church was established.Those councils were established to refute the heresies and with them the heretics.The Holy Spirit spoke there in the Councils , where the majoritan revealing of the Scriptures trough the Fathers were the same.In the same spirit , trough the grace of the Holy Spirit and Christ.The Tradition is the treasure the Church has as inheritance from the Fathers , the doctrines and the dogmas of the Church , represent the creed of the seven councils.The devotion to Virgin Mary dates since the first councils , maybe even sooner.We see that the Mother of Jesus is one of the few women mentioned in the Gospel with name, esspecially in the Acts , when she is mentioned at the Pentecost with name along with the apostles , she is distinguished.(Acts 1:14).I found quotes of Origen about the Devotion to Theotokos (248 AD).As a general theology the importance of the Theotokos is recognise between the apostle , esspecially of the apostle Luke.Mary had an important role into the Salvation of humanity , She is the vessel who carried and bear our Lord and Saviour , Jesus Christ.She bear the one the heavens can`t bear , the Word of God , trought the grace of God.As it is written in you , the child wich you will give birth the Son of God shall be called.Jesus took His humanity from Mary , He was incarnate from the Virgin.A quote from a site : "A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ. "

Jesus is refered to in the Pauline epitles as our brother , if He is our brother then Mary is our Mother.Mary is the Spiritual Mother of all Christians as we are all one in Christ.Therefore a Church Fathers says : "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother" St Cyprian of Carthage

Read his entire sermon about that here : http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/14439.htm

Also we know as it is written in Galatians 4:26 “But the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.”
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 11:40:52 AM by Dan-Romania » Logged

This user no longer posts here.
Dan-Romania
Warned
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 746


« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2009, 12:36:47 PM »

The devotion to Mary is from the time of the Apostles .From the beginning of the Church Mary has been seen as the Mother of us all by reason of our being members of Christ her Son. St. Justin the Philosopher (died 165) saw Mary as a model of the Church. He and later Fathers, such as St. Irenaeus, a disciple of St. Polycarp who was himself taught by the Apostle John, all saw Mary as the New Eve :

 As St. Irenaeus says, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed through the obedience of Mary; for what Eve, a virgin, bound by her unbelief, that Mary, a virgin, unloosed by her faith [Against the Heresies, III, xxii, 4].

Logged

This user no longer posts here.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,359


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2009, 04:50:36 PM »



You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
This may, in fact, be one of the most ridiculous posts that I have ever read. You have hymns in your tradition that plead, "Mary, save us," and you make the ridiculous charges that you do. Face it, my dear brother in Christ, neither of our Churches is guilty of worshiping Mary.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2009, 04:12:36 AM »



You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
This may, in fact, be one of the most ridiculous posts that I have ever read. You have hymns in your tradition that plead, "Mary, save us," and you make the ridiculous charges that you do. Face it, my dear brother in Christ, neither of our Churches is guilty of worshiping Mary.


What....  Huh
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 978


Holy Father Seraphim, Pray to God for us!


« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2009, 02:14:06 PM »

I find it funny because Martin Luther had a devotion to the Blessed Mother and he even taught the IC.

Just my 2 cents



David
Logged

All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2009, 02:45:48 PM »

Through the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior save us!
Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2009, 02:46:11 PM »



You deified your popes and mary...everytime i hear a catholic  even on radio or tv mary this or pope that ..the catholic preach mary and the pope more than Christ himself,,,Of course protestants when they hear it they will assume it,even when i hear it i assume it ,,that mary and the pope are your deity....
No one is to blame but the catholics for this ,,,,In orthodoxy Mary has her place in a liturgical setting....But christ is prominent with the eternal Father and the Holy spirit.... Look at your own religious images how they depict her rays shooting out of her hands no christ present like demi goddess....
This may, in fact, be one of the most ridiculous posts that I have ever read. You have hymns in your tradition that plead, "Mary, save us," and you make the ridiculous charges that you do. Face it, my dear brother in Christ, neither of our Churches is guilty of worshiping Mary.

Don't misinterpret our tradition, brother Papist... There's a difference between the two ways one can save: 'to redeem' and 'to rescue'. The first one is reserved to Jesus alone (that's why the word 'co-redemptrix' makes us suffer stomachache) and the second is 'to rescue' meaning to come and help us, which is the typical way Mary is represented as our protector (in iconography this is represented as the prototype "Protection (pokrov) of the Mother of God"
http://incommunion.org/img/pokrov.jpg

In Christ,   Alex
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 02:47:09 PM by AlexanderOfBergamo » Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 978


Holy Father Seraphim, Pray to God for us!


« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2009, 03:36:14 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the Catholic Church has ever officiay proclaimed Mary as 'co-redemptrix'-At least I hope not!!! Sad
Logged

All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2009, 04:40:22 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the Catholic Church has ever officially proclaimed Mary as 'co-redemptrix'-At least I hope not!!! Sad

Not quite yet, but I suspect I'll see an 'ex-cathedra' before my repose...
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 04:40:33 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 978


Holy Father Seraphim, Pray to God for us!


« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2009, 04:48:25 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the Catholic Church has ever officially proclaimed Mary as 'co-redemptrix'-At least I hope not!!! Sad

Not quite yet, but I suspect I'll see an 'ex-cathedra' before my repose...
Then before your repose you may see me in your parish as a Catechumen.  Grin
Logged

All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2009, 06:03:19 PM »

The same fact that such a word is ALLOWED makes me suffer in pain, dear Altar Server...
Well, Orthodoxy's doors are always open!  Wink
Anyway, I still hope RCism doesn't get so far from the original message of Christianity...

In Christ, your brother Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 978


Holy Father Seraphim, Pray to God for us!


« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2009, 06:21:38 PM »

Yes the word sends shivers down my spine, and well I hope we don't get any farther from the original message of Christianity.


Logged

All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2009, 04:38:05 AM »

Whats the Orthodox interpretation of Luke 11:27-28 with regards to the veneration of Mary?

As Jesus was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “How blessed is the womb that gave birth to you and the breasts that nursed you!” But he said, “Rather, how blessed are those who hear God's word and obey it!” (ISV)

« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 04:38:30 AM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2009, 08:10:11 AM »

Whats the Orthodox interpretation of Luke 11:27-28 with regards to the veneration of Mary?

As Jesus was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “How blessed is the womb that gave birth to you and the breasts that nursed you!” But he said, “Rather, how blessed are those who hear God's word and obey it!” (ISV)



Orthodox Study Bible:  God's blessing falls not on those who have prominent family connections, but upon those who hear the word of God and keep it.  Jesus is stating a principle, not denigrating His mother; she both heard God's word and kept it, and thus became the most blessed of women (1:28-31, 42)
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2009, 08:20:24 AM »

Whats the Orthodox interpretation of Luke 11:27-28 with regards to the veneration of Mary?

As Jesus was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “How blessed is the womb that gave birth to you and the breasts that nursed you!” But he said, “Rather, how blessed are those who hear God's word and obey it!” (ISV)

Luke 1:38 "...Mary said, "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord!  Let it be to me according to your word....(41-5)...when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.  Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb!  But why is it granted to me, that the mother of My Lord should come to me? For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.  Blessed is she who believed....(46-48) And Mary said...For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed....(2:19) Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart....(51) Then He went down with them and came to Nazareth and was subject to them, but His mother kept all these things in her heart."

The Fathers teach that the Theotokos conceived Christ through the ear: she heard the Word of God, and kept it.

Btw, Luke 11:27-8 is the Gospel reading for every feast of the Theotokos (except the Annuciation), so we are quite familiar with the text.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2009, 05:12:45 PM »

So Jesus is stating that Mary is not blessed because she bore him, but solely for her obedience? In this sense, is he not then saying that all others who hear the word of God and obey it are blessed just the same?  I guess I was under the impression that the primary reason that she is venerated today has to do with the fact that she is the "Theotokos", not because of her obedience. If the latter was the only criteria for being blessed, then I believe a case could be made that several old testament figures were equally as obedient to God's word. I'm not trying to pin anyone down here, I'm just trying to get behind the rationale for veneration.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 05:15:59 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
John Larocque
Catholic
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox
Posts: 530


« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2009, 05:44:07 PM »

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the Catholic Church has ever officiay proclaimed Mary as 'co-redemptrix'-At least I hope not!!! Sad

It hasn't and I hope that it doesn't. Even if it is explained in a subordinated way, there are those for whom that point will be lost. I remember it was August 15 in the mid-1980s, which is a day of obligation in the United States for Catholics. By chance, the closest parish was Byzantine Catholic, not Latin , and the priest spoke about the meaning of the expression Theotokos. I always preferred God-bearer to Mother of God, even though they are rough analogs. The priest said that in iconography she always is pointing to Jesus. This is as it should be, and I would be troubled if this declaration came to pass.

I grabbed this form a Catholic thread and it turns out at least one Catholic is not enamored with the title:

Quote
Ratzinger said, “I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand, which in the meantime is being supported by several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.

The Cardinal continues: "What is true here? Well, it is true that Christ does not remain outside us or to one side of us, but builds a profound and new community with us. Everything that is his becomes ours, and everything that is ours he has taken upon himself, so that it becomes his: this great exchange is the actual content of redemption, the removal of limitations from our self and its extension into community with God. Because Mary is the prototype of the Church as such and is, so to say, the Church in person, this being “with” is realized in her in exemplary fashion.

"But this “with” must not lead us to forget the “first” of Christ: Everything comes from Him, as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything that she is through Him.

"The word 'Co-redemptrix,'" Ratzinger went on to say, "would obscure this origin. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language." (God and the World, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2000)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 05:50:31 PM by John Larocque » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2009, 05:50:45 PM »

So Jesus is stating that Mary is not blessed because she bore him, but solely for her obedience? In this sense, is he not then saying that all others who hear the word of God and obey it are blessed just the same?  I guess I was under the impression that the primary reason that she is venerated today has to do with the fact that she is the "Theotokos", not because of her obedience. If the latter was the only criteria for being blessed, then I believe a case could be made that several old testament figures were equally as obedient to God's word. I'm not trying to pin anyone down here, I'm just trying to get behind the rationale for veneration.

You speaks as if they are contradictory rather than complimentary.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2009, 08:06:29 AM »

Prayer FOR Mary

Making use of this thread on devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary to ask any Eastern Catholics on the Forum if their devotion includes praying FOR Mary and FOR the Saints.

Elsewhere it is being said , and quite insistently, by both lay people and even one EC clergyman, that Catholics not only pray to Mary but they also pray FOR her, for an increase in deification and virtue.

Despite several requests nobody has been able to offer an example of such prayers though.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2009, 05:40:20 PM »

The earliest most pronounced reverence to Mary that i've seen is expressed in the small paraklesis written in the 9th century.

http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/mikropar.htm
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2009, 05:43:11 PM »

Prayer FOR Mary

Making use of this thread on devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary to ask any Eastern Catholics on the Forum if their devotion includes praying FOR Mary and FOR the Saints.

Elsewhere it is being said , and quite insistently, by both lay people and even one EC clergyman, that Catholics not only pray to Mary but they also pray FOR her, for an increase in deification and virtue.

Despite several requests nobody has been able to offer an example of such prayers though.

Hmm interesting. That sounds like a good idea to me. 
Logged
GregoryLA
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Moving toward Eastern Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Western Japan
Posts: 377



« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2009, 08:45:08 PM »

In light of all the talk about this and that not being in the Bible and thus we shouldn't do it...

Is there any example of prayers being addressed to Jesus?  If not, then given that Protestants all pray to Christ (at least I think they do, don't they?), wouldn't this be an example of an extra-biblical tradition in the context of prayer that they're practicing?
Logged
Liz
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Church of England
Posts: 989



« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2009, 08:47:27 PM »

In light of all the talk about this and that not being in the Bible and thus we shouldn't do it...

Is there any example of prayers being addressed to Jesus?  If not, then given that Protestants all pray to Christ (at least I think they do, don't they?), wouldn't this be an example of an extra-biblical tradition in the context of prayer that they're practicing?

All Protestants also believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, which is extra-Scriptural. It is a mistake to think that 'sola scriptura' is taken literally by any but the lunatic fringe.

It also occurs to me that the Jesus prayer is described in Acts, for what it is worth. Invocation of the Name is the simplest (some would say the most powerful) form of prayer ... and there's little doubt to whom it is addressed!
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 08:51:31 PM by Liz » Logged
Liz
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Church of England
Posts: 989



« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2009, 09:23:17 PM »

Sorry to double-post, it seems to be my besetting sin to jump in to a thread before I've got my ideas straight.  Sad

The early suggestion that veneration of Mary began in the Dark Ages is probably a misunderstanding based on a grain of truth. In the Western (Catholic) Church, devotions to Mary became immensely more popular during the early Middle Ages, because it became the custom for lay people to recite a simplified version of the complicated monastic routine of daily prayer. The monastic routine, obviously, had parts devoted to God in His three Persons, to the various saints, to important events and festivals, and to Mary - but because prayers to Mary were a standard, much-repeated part of the routine, it was this part that was taken and given to lay people for their daily prayer routine. I think it's probably this increase in affection for/visibility of Mary that is being referred to in the mistaken source that says veneration of Mary began in the Dark Ages.

Btw, re:

Quote

What do we make then, of the passage when the woman calls out "blessed is the womb that bore you..." and then Jesus says, "no, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it" ? Not trying to throw in a monkey wrench here, - really - but that has confused me for a long time.   

Mary heard, and indeed bore, the Word. I think this passage was perhaps trying to combat a heresy we don't often think of now - the idea that Mary was only a vessel, not a saintly person in her own right. Yes, of course Mary bore Jesus - but we should respect her as far more than 'the womb': she is the a person whose holiness marked her out before the Incarnation.

That's how I'd understand those two quotations, anyway.
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2009, 10:01:49 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

LOL!

That's such BS!

There's one example that immediately comes to mind that debunks that.

The First Council of Ephesus in 431 and the title Theotokos!

That's a primarily Eastern Christian council that dates before the Dark Ages. And that's just at what immediately came to mind. I have no doubt Marian devotion predated Ephesus.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2009, 10:06:44 PM »


The LCMS has become almost Nestorian in their understanding of Mary and Christ.

Wow, that's crazy. Given that the Lutheran Confessions and Scholastics had the most radically affirming view of the communicatio idiomatum that I've ever seen and thus are more Monophysite than anything.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Liz
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Church of England
Posts: 989



« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2009, 10:07:38 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

LOL!

That's such BS!


*Giggles* Friend, your words may not be elegant but boy are they right! A friend I'm chatting with atm (neither of us can sleep!) has this rather sweet observation: Surely Jesus loved and honoured His mother? All little babies naturally think their mothers are wonderful people. And did not God choose her before all time? Since Jesus knew Mary's saintliness before time, and had a human baby's love and respect for His mother, how can we deny that veneration of Mary began long before the Scriptures were written?!
Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2009, 11:57:30 PM »

I do not think that one can come to the Church's reverance/veneration of Mary (or the saints, for that matter) as the primary area of inquiry into Orthodoxy or Catholicism. If one starts there, there is no DNA in protestants to accept any of the arguments we might offer. And there are too many memes in their experience to automatically discount any argument we make as out of hand. Give them George Gabriel's (the translator of Fr. Romanides' Ancestral Sin) book, Mary, the Untrodden Portal or Scott Hahn's book, Hail Holy Queen. It won't make any difference.

One comes to the acceptance of the Church's veneration of Mary by coming to the Church by other means. One answers key questions (for example, for me it was Apostolic succession and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, then everything else could be accepted) then comes to an acceptance of all the Church's dogmas. Or one works through 101 questions and concludes that questions 102 through 202 will also pan out so I should just accept the Church's teaching (on Mary and everything else).

I have NEVER heard of a convert working through the issue of Mary as the passageway into Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

I have heard numerous accounts of people for whom Mary was a huge stumbling block, but after confronting other issues and coming up with affirmatives they finally came to see the Church's teaching on Mary.

I think if the prayer had been written in the post-reformation context we would pray at liturgy," I will not speak of Thy mystery to thine enemies; nor will I speak of Thy most blessed Mother, but like the thief I will confess thee."
Logged
Dan-Romania
Warned
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 746


« Reply #83 on: September 20, 2009, 05:12:01 AM »

Mary is a help for the christians , many christians here in Romania are devoted to Mary, esspecially women.
Logged

This user no longer posts here.
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #84 on: September 20, 2009, 09:54:22 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

LOL!

That's such BS!


*Giggles* Friend, your words may not be elegant but boy are they right! A friend I'm chatting with atm (neither of us can sleep!) has this rather sweet observation: Surely Jesus loved and honoured His mother? All little babies naturally think their mothers are wonderful people. And did not God choose her before all time? Since Jesus knew Mary's saintliness before time, and had a human baby's love and respect for His mother, how can we deny that veneration of Mary began long before the Scriptures were written?!

That is an astonishing observation from a Protestant! Very un-common.

My sister thinks I am breaking Mosaic law against necromancy by praying to saints or to Mary.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2009, 12:39:55 AM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

LOL!



That's such BS!


*Giggles* Friend, your words may not be elegant but boy are they right! A friend I'm chatting with atm (neither of us can sleep!) has this rather sweet observation: Surely Jesus loved and honoured His mother? All little babies naturally think their mothers are wonderful people. And did not God choose her before all time? Since Jesus knew Mary's saintliness before time, and had a human baby's love and respect for His mother, how can we deny that veneration of Mary began long before the Scriptures were written?!

That is an astonishing observation from a Protestant! Very un-common.

My sister thinks I am breaking Mosaic law against necromancy by praying to saints or to Mary.

Liz is basically one of us, she just doesn't know it yet  Cheesy  Wink
Logged
Liz
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Church of England
Posts: 989



« Reply #86 on: September 21, 2009, 06:34:32 AM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

LOL!



That's such BS!


*Giggles* Friend, your words may not be elegant but boy are they right! A friend I'm chatting with atm (neither of us can sleep!) has this rather sweet observation: Surely Jesus loved and honoured His mother? All little babies naturally think their mothers are wonderful people. And did not God choose her before all time? Since Jesus knew Mary's saintliness before time, and had a human baby's love and respect for His mother, how can we deny that veneration of Mary began long before the Scriptures were written?!

That is an astonishing observation from a Protestant! Very un-common.

My sister thinks I am breaking Mosaic law against necromancy by praying to saints or to Mary.

Liz is basically one of us, she just doesn't know it yet  Cheesy  Wink

 Cheesy

Oi!  (Btw, you've just made me laugh so loud I knocked a facsimile of a medieval psalter to the floor ... now, was that really Christian of you?!)

Brother Aidan, I spend so much time reading and thinking about late-medieval devotion, I tend to have a fund of ideas about Mary and how people have venerated her. I have to say (just to disappoint you) that I don't, personally, pray to Mary because for me it would not feel right.

Not quite one of you yet, eh?

In all seriousness, what I really objected to was the ignorance and prejudice in the claim that veneration of Mary began in the Dark Ages. However I may feel about veneration of Mary, that is a really stupid, rude thing to say, which only proves that the speaker is unaware of history.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 06:36:05 AM by Liz » Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2009, 03:01:02 AM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.

He refers to the dark ages as being from 500 to 1000 AD. Is this even historically correct??
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2009, 03:46:58 AM »

He refers to the dark ages as being from 500 to 1000 AD. Is this even historically correct??

Accurate enough.  The term Dark Ages is a ambiguous and problematic on many levels.  The way this presbyter was using the term is in a more popular fashion, so he was referring to what might more accurately be dubbed the Early Middle Ages.
Logged
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2009, 04:06:27 AM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.

He refers to the dark ages as being from 500 to 1000 AD. Is this even historically correct??

Depends on who you ask.

The Dark Ages are generally considered to fall between 500-1000. But on the other hand, that time period wasn't really that Dark. The term "Dark Ages" refers to the lack of written records from this period, not the fact that it was somehow more backwards than another age.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Liz
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Church of England
Posts: 989



« Reply #90 on: September 25, 2009, 04:36:22 AM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.

He refers to the dark ages as being from 500 to 1000 AD. Is this even historically correct??

Depends on who you ask.

The Dark Ages are generally considered to fall between 500-1000. But on the other hand, that time period wasn't really that Dark. The term "Dark Ages" refers to the lack of written records from this period, not the fact that it was somehow more backwards than another age.

I think most people consider it a term that's not really useful any more, except possibly applied to England before the coming of the Irish missionaries, who brought Christianity and literacy. They themselves thought that the were enlightening darkness, so it's fair to use the term. So that puts it between around 400 and maybe 650-700 or so. Otherwise, it's a rude term for the Middle Ages. I've got an old late-Victorian history book that refers to Henry VII and 'Good Queen Bess' ending the Dark Ages and bringing 'true faith'.  Smiley
Logged
Dan-Romania
Warned
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 746


« Reply #91 on: September 25, 2009, 01:26:28 PM »

       The Orthodox Church calls the Blessed Virgin Mary Theotokos , the hidden mystery from eternity unknown by angels.St Ignatius says that the ruler of this world did not knew the Virginity of Mary , the birth of Christ from her and the death of Jesus.Three big mysteries accomplished in the silence of God.The person of the BVM is bound in the iconomy of Salvation to Jesus Christ as we confess in the creed : "Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man". Because of this the praise of the Mother of God has bound roots with our Saviour Jesus Christ.
        The Holy Fathers starting with those from the postapostolic age untill the VIII century developed an unitarian teaching about the Virgin Mary, specifying the theological and liturgical aspects of her praise showing the help the BVM gives to the faithfull in the iconomy of salvation.
         In the postapostolic time, the teology concerning Theotokos is less reacher, in exchange apologetics of high reputation such as Justin Martyr,St Iraeneus, Tertullian,Clement of Alexandria , Origen put the basics of the orthodox teachings concerning VM , highlighting the real birth of the Lord,the virginity of Theotokos and her motherhood.
         The teaching about the Mother of the Lord , becomes more profound in the writings of the Church Fathers from IV-V centuries when 19 fathers and church writers of reputation from east and west bring their testimonies about the Mother of God.Father like Athanasius the Great , Chirill of Jerusalem,Basil the Great,Gregory the Theologian,Gregory of Nyssa , John Chrysostomus,Ephrem the Sir,Ambrose , Chirill of Alexandria , Leon the Great, Blessed Jeronim and Augustin.This period it`s in climax in the 3rd Ecumenical Council in Ephesus(431) when they decided the name for the Virgin Mary , Theotokos(God-bearer).

This is translated by myself from a romanian orthodox book:Adrian Lucian Dinu , The Mother of God in the Theology of the Church Fathers.

On this age(IV-V century) the devotion to Theotokos grew more and more , and this is maybe the golden era of the Church, with great Theologians like Chrysostomus , Basil the Great , Athanasius the Great, Chiril of Alexandria , Leon the Great , Ambrose , Augustin.We see that already in this age , the devotion to Mary was very big , we see that by looking at the writings of this fathers , many hymns and poetries to the Mother of God are from even then, and nice poetical theology , the honey of orthodoxy.We see that the Church Father had high esteem to the Blessed Mother of our Lord, and honour her with poetries and hymns, one of this is Ephrem the Syr , who has very beautifull poetries and praises about Mary, in the contrast of Mariology.

Logged

This user no longer posts here.
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #92 on: September 25, 2009, 10:48:02 PM »

When I was in school in the early seventies, you were taught about the fall of the Roman Empire (the Western half of course) then there was the Dark Ages where despite the corrupt Church, the monasteries somehow managed to collect and save the writings of classical Rome and Greece from the burning of libraries by the barbarians. Then you had the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, the Industrial Revolution and the Civil War, followed by the Spanish-American War, WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, the Korean War and the sixties. That was the summation of human history in a nutshell in late sixties/early seventies public schools.

P.S. that is probably a heck of a lot more than kids learn today!
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 10:49:46 PM by BrotherAidan » Logged
Liz
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Church of England
Posts: 989



« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2009, 06:54:40 AM »

When I was in school in the early seventies, you were taught about the fall of the Roman Empire (the Western half of course) then there was the Dark Ages where despite the corrupt Church, the monasteries somehow managed to collect and save the writings of classical Rome and Greece from the burning of libraries by the barbarians. Then you had the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, the Industrial Revolution and the Civil War, followed by the Spanish-American War, WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, the Korean War and the sixties. That was the summation of human history in a nutshell in late sixties/early seventies public schools.

P.S. that is probably a heck of a lot more than kids learn today!

Don't bet on that last claim, will you  Wink

The term Dark Ages is derogatory and originating with anti-Catholic Protestant historians, btw. If those historians were alive today, they'd think the Orthodox Church was part of the 'darkness', I reckon.

Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2009, 12:45:17 PM »

When I was in school in the early seventies, you were taught about the fall of the Roman Empire (the Western half of course) then there was the Dark Ages where despite the corrupt Church, the monasteries somehow managed to collect and save the writings of classical Rome and Greece from the burning of libraries by the barbarians. Then you had the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, the Industrial Revolution and the Civil War, followed by the Spanish-American War, WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, the Korean War and the sixties. That was the summation of human history in a nutshell in late sixties/early seventies public schools.

P.S. that is probably a heck of a lot more than kids learn today!

Don't bet on that last claim, will you  Wink



The term Dark Ages is derogatory and originating with anti-Catholic Protestant historians, btw. If those historians were alive today, they'd think the Orthodox Church was part of the 'darkness', I reckon.



Liz
I never picked up negative, anti-catholic notions from the term Dark Ages; I was taught that the term referred to the darkness that descended on Europe with the demise of the Roman Empire, the sacking and burning of libraries, and the halt on learning brought about by the barbarians and the defensive situation of feudal Europe. But the monasteries were given due credit as places where learning was preserved and the manuscripts from the classical era were saved and preserved and the study of the classical languages (Latin and Greek) preserved.

Maybe the situation was different in the US than in the UK with that term.
 
Logged
Liz
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Church of England
Posts: 989



« Reply #95 on: September 26, 2009, 01:11:17 PM »

When I was in school in the early seventies, you were taught about the fall of the Roman Empire (the Western half of course) then there was the Dark Ages where despite the corrupt Church, the monasteries somehow managed to collect and save the writings of classical Rome and Greece from the burning of libraries by the barbarians. Then you had the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, the Industrial Revolution and the Civil War, followed by the Spanish-American War, WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, the Korean War and the sixties. That was the summation of human history in a nutshell in late sixties/early seventies public schools.

P.S. that is probably a heck of a lot more than kids learn today!

Don't bet on that last claim, will you  Wink



The term Dark Ages is derogatory and originating with anti-Catholic Protestant historians, btw. If those historians were alive today, they'd think the Orthodox Church was part of the 'darkness', I reckon.



Liz
I never picked up negative, anti-catholic notions from the term Dark Ages; I was taught that the term referred to the darkness that descended on Europe with the demise of the Roman Empire, the sacking and burning of libraries, and the halt on learning brought about by the barbarians and the defensive situation of feudal Europe. But the monasteries were given due credit as places where learning was preserved and the manuscripts from the classical era were saved and preserved and the study of the classical languages (Latin and Greek) preserved.

Maybe the situation was different in the US than in the UK with that term.
 

Yes, that makes sense. I looked (only on wiki, but the article looks well-written), and apparently Petrarch was the first to refer to 'Dark Ages' in order to criticize late Latin literature. I think lots of British historians, who were very anti-Catholic, thought of the Catholic Middle Ages as the 'Dark Ages'. Of course, monasteries in England weren't very good (in fact, no good at all!) at preserving the Greek sources that the Orthodox Church never lost sight of. England was pretty isolated I guess, but I think Greek wasn't widely known in the West. It's good that the States doesn't seem to be so affected by this anti-Catholic prejudice. One of my colleagues wrote a paper looking at how 19th and early 20th century English editors described Anglo-Saxon manuscripts, and you wouldn't believe how nationalistic and anti-Catholic they were!

It's this English prejudice against anything that looks like Catholicism that is at the root of the Anglican distrust of the Virgin. In my view it's absurd, but you still find older people who think that it's best to avoid mentioning or thinking about the Mother of God entirely, just in case they look 'Romish' (as they would say). In fact, I noticed today that the early version of the Anglican Communion service (which is obsolete) very pointedly refers to Jesus as 'our only mediator'.

Edit: Btw, have you heard of the wonderful discovery made recently in England, of Anglo-Saxon gold? It's very exciting - and it's things like this that make me understand why my colleagues don't like the term 'dark ages'. If you've not heard, search for 'Anglo-Saxon treasure discovery' and I'm sure the story will come up.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 01:15:57 PM by Liz » Logged
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 978


Holy Father Seraphim, Pray to God for us!


« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2009, 12:56:58 AM »

Martin Luther himself had a devotion to the Blessed Virgin and the saints he just had problems asking their prayers he also prayed the rosary with out the "pray for us..." and he never condemned images

In Jesus and Mary

Altar Server
Logged

All my hope I place in you, O Mother of God, keep me under your protection!
Nazarene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaism
Jurisdiction: Messianic
Posts: 520


David ben Yessai


« Reply #97 on: November 26, 2009, 04:39:39 PM »

{Luke 1:48} because he has looked at the humiliation of his handmaid. For behold, from now on, all generations will give me a blessing, (Peshitta)

I'm curious, how is veneration the same thing as a blessing?
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #98 on: November 26, 2009, 09:44:42 PM »

I'm curious, how is veneration the same thing as a blessing?

Well, how are you defining "blessing" and "veneration"?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 09:44:51 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #99 on: November 27, 2009, 05:39:24 PM »

{Luke 1:48} because he has looked at the humiliation of his handmaid. For behold, from now on, all generations will give me a blessing, (Peshitta)

I'm curious, how is veneration the same thing as a blessing?
Your Bible's translation of Luke 1:48 differs substantially from mine:

"Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." (Luke 1:48 Douay-Rheims Bible)

Your quotation indicates that she will given a blessing, mine indicates otherwise. She shall be called Blessed. Being given a blessing, and being called Blessed differ greatly. Being called Blessed  is a unique privilege, wouldn't you say? I mean, who can really say, "all generations shall call me blessed"?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 05:49:16 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
Nazarene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaism
Jurisdiction: Messianic
Posts: 520


David ben Yessai


« Reply #100 on: November 27, 2009, 06:20:22 PM »

{Luke 1:48} because he has looked at the humiliation of his handmaid. For behold, from now on, all generations will give me a blessing, (Peshitta)

I'm curious, how is veneration the same thing as a blessing?
Your Bible's translation of Luke 1:48 differs substantially from mine:

"Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." (Luke 1:48 Douay-Rheims Bible)

Your quotation indicates that she will given a blessing, mine indicates otherwise. She shall be called Blessed. Being given a blessing, and being called Blessed differ greatly. Being called Blessed  is a unique privilege, wouldn't you say? I mean, who can really say, "all generations shall call me blessed"?

Yes my translation differs because it's based on a differnt underlying text (the Peshitta).

I can go into detail of how blessings are understood by Jews, especially how significant they are for a Jewish woman like Mary in a staunchly patriachal society, but I first want to know how blessing translates into veneration?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 06:21:43 PM by Nazarene » Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #101 on: November 27, 2009, 06:48:31 PM »

How else could we bless her except by paying her due respect and honor?
Logged
Liz
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Church of England
Posts: 989



« Reply #102 on: November 27, 2009, 07:35:39 PM »

We venerate those who are the most visible human reminders of God - those who are blessed. The image of God is in all of us. Human blessing (as a vicar might bless you) is an expression of devout hope that this image may truly draw near to God. When we refer to someone (the supreme example being Mary) as blessed, we are acknowledging that this person has indeed conformed their image towards that of God. Veneration is a close cousin to worship: we worship only that which is divine. But we venerate those people whose humanity is transmuted by their blessed closeness to God.

... that's how I'd see it, and I'm not being very clear. But veneration and blessing relate to points on the same spectrum - our hope to reform our humanity to the image of God.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #103 on: November 27, 2009, 09:51:04 PM »

We venerate those who are the most visible human reminders of God - those who are blessed. The image of God is in all of us. Human blessing (as a vicar might bless you) is an expression of devout hope that this image may truly draw near to God. When we refer to someone (the supreme example being Mary) as blessed, we are acknowledging that this person has indeed conformed their image towards that of God. Veneration is a close cousin to worship: we worship only that which is divine. But we venerate those people whose humanity is transmuted by their blessed closeness to God.

... that's how I'd see it, and I'm not being very clear. But veneration and blessing relate to points on the same spectrum - our hope to reform our humanity to the image of God.

Very well put, Liz.  Although I know there are distinctions between worship and veneration, I confess I'm not always sure what these distinctions are.  I think it may be more of a "heart thing" than something that is outwardly visible.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,951



« Reply #104 on: November 28, 2009, 02:42:53 AM »

Very well put, Liz.  Although I know there are distinctions between worship and veneration, I confess I'm not always sure what these distinctions are.  I think it may be more of a "heart thing" than something that is outwardly visible.

It gets even more confusing when you get into the etymology.  In current English usage, the word "worship" is supposed to convey what is due to God alone.  But traditionally this word has been used less formally, as in the title "Your Worship" for those in authority, bowing down and "worshiping" rulers as in the New Testament parables, et cetera.

When looking at the decrees of the councils, I seem to recall a distinction being made between "veneration" and "worship" in regard to interacting with iconography, but the more literal translation of the terms was that it was appropriate to "adore" images, but only God is to receive "hyper-adoration", whatever that is.  Then add in the fact that there are no distinguishing elements in physical worship either.  We prostrate before images of the Theanthropos, but also the Theotokos in the same manner.

Any designation becomes a thing of the heart.  With bowing before the Theotokos, I tend to think of the adoration as being because of what her Son has made her.  If I were to meet a king in ancient times, I would bow before his mother, the queen-mother as well.  She is due honor and adoration, even (gasp!) worship in the traditional sense of the term because of her relation to Christ.  His virtue is such that it affects all around Him, and who is more close to Him than his most-pure mother?

All of her virtue comes from God; truly God is glorified in her.  She is deified by His grace, and she acts in our lives by the energy of God which now emanates from her.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 02:43:19 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 684


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #105 on: December 11, 2009, 09:13:02 AM »

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.
Now this is interesting. That's made by a pastor of Missouri-Synod and they have a statue of Theotokos in one of their churhes. Is that an extreme anomaly or is that pastor representing some low church wing of Missouri-Synod?

The LCMS has become almost Nestorian in their understanding of Mary and Christ.  A lot of "baptist" Lutherans will shudder at calling Mary, the Mother of God or Theotokos, even though that particular title was used in the old 1943 hymnal, which is still fairly commonplace in many LCMS congregatinos.  Rather than call Mary, MOther of God, they will call her Mother of Christ, which, in Greek, would be Christotokos and that is precisely the kind of talk that got Nestorius condemned at Ephesus in 431.  The LCMS has really turned her back on the appropriate honour due to Mary even though Luther himself was very devoted to our Lady.  The reason they do so is avoid any hint of Catholcisim.  Romaphobia is very prevalent in many LCMS congregations.  Again, they're becoming more Baptist.

I am not sure who the Lutheran pastor that you are referring to is. There is one guy who is a LCMS pastor in Seattle named Ernie Lessman, who record's his weekly catechism classes. He is actually pretty good. I do remember one time when he spoke about why devotion to Mary was discouraged. Basically he said that the RCC had determined that Christ was too distant, which, if memory serves, he said contradicted Grace. Based on that understanding I would kind of agree. When I was a catecumen I once asked my priest if we couldn't just pray to Christ directly. He said "Of course! He's right there.' while pointing to the icon. "He is always there." We do not ask for partion the saints due to distance from Christ.

Regarding the Baptist-like nature of the LCMS, and the minister on yourube, the same man who criticized reverence for Mary was also a staunch proponent of the Real Presence as wll as infant Baptism. These are two beliefs that are absolutely anathema to Baptist beliefs.
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2011, 04:42:49 PM »

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.

Greek Papyrus 470 in the John Rylands Library, Manchester, England
http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/eresources/imagecollections/
On the Insight Browser Viewer, search by Reference Number for
Greek  Papyrus 470, and then click on it to activate the magnify and zoom
functions.

Better yet:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_IY755_iUePk/RrqBwR2tyAI/AAAAAAAAARI/aoIHtrSlg4U/s1600-h/johnrylands470.jpg
http://theoblogoumena.blogspot.com/2007/08/john-rylands-papyrus-470.html

Theotokos is the first word in the fourth line.
I just came across this
Quote
...C.H. Roberts published this document in 1938 (cf. Catalogue of the Greek and Latin Papyri in the John Rylands Library, III, Theological and literacy Texts, Manchester 1938, pp. 46-47). Roberts then dated this piece of papyrus back to the fourth century, thinking it was impossible to find an invocation to the Theotokos before this century (we will however see below, that the expression Theotokos was already in use in Alexandria before 250).

However his colleague E. Lobel, with whom he collaborated in editing the Oxyrhynchus papyri, basing his arguments on pure paleographic analysis, argued that the text could not possibly be older than the third century, and most probably was written between 250 and 280. A contributor to Roberts, H.J. Bell, even said that this document might be a "model for an engraver" considering the beauty of the uncials. The Sub tuum praesidium thus precedes by several centuries the Ave Maria in Christian prayer....

The designation of Mary as Theotokos during the third century, therefore two hundred years before the arguments linked to the theses of Nestorius -- an issue resolved by the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus in 431 -- already created problems for C.H. Roberts, the editor of the Egyptian text as stated above. One must realize that the term Theotokos ("Dei Genetrix") is not an invention of the fifth century.

During the fourth century, the term was already quite popular in the area of Alexandria (St. Alexander of Alexandria, St. Athanasius, St. Serapion of Thmuis, Didymus the Blind), and also in Arabia (Tite of Bostra), in Palestine (Eusebius of Caesarea, St. Cyril of Jerusalem), Cappadocia (St. Basil of Caesarea, Gregory Nazianzen, Severian of Gabala) and even among the Arians (Asterius the Sophist).

Moreover, the term may be encountered during the third century, precisely in the work of the Alexandrian school. According to the testimony of the ecclesiastical historian Socrates (Hist. Eccl. VII, 32 - PG 67, 812 B), Origen would have used it in his commentary -- unfortunately lost -- on the Epistle to the Romans. His disciple, Bishop Dionysius of Alexandria, also used the term of Theotokos around the year 250 in an epistle to Paul of Samosata. It is interesting to note that the term did not remain a mere theological concept, considering that it received a liturgical dimension in Egypt during the same period. However, it is difficult to determine if it is the theological discourse that influenced the liturgical prayer, or vice versa.

Still, one can better understand the extraordinary pugnacity of St. Cyril of Alexandria against the Nestorian theses in the fifth century, since obviously, the term Theotokos was already part of the deposit of the faith lived and sung in the liturgy of Alexandria for quite some time...
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/index.html#6808626763184841400
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags: Theotokos prayer 
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.359 seconds with 135 queries.