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Author Topic: Devotion to Blessed Virgin Mary  (Read 15443 times) Average Rating: 0
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ChristusDominus
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« on: June 18, 2009, 03:53:50 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 04:10:26 PM »

Luke 1:48 is where it began. "For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed."

Also, according to Church tradition, I believe St. Luke himself wrote the first icon of the Theotokos, and (I could be wrong on this part) composed the first hymn to her.
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 04:29:40 PM »

The Blessed Virgin Mary was honored from the early days and I am sure held in high esteem..She was with the apostles in the upper room on Pentecost.
I can see why a protestant would want this devotion to start in the middle ages.Protestants always talk about the Church of the Apostles,,,,well...thats what Orthodoxy is...if they look at the First Century Church they will have to deal with this fact...and they do not want to do that...maybe because of the ethnic club crap or some other issue the Evil One whispers in their ears
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2009, 04:45:02 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

It intrigues me that it is one of the commonest hymns loved by the Orthodox and the choir will often start to sing it spontaneously if they need to "fill in" some gap in the Service.  And when you suggest to people at home "Let's say some prayers" this is often what they start to sing.

Here is a small Wikipedia article on this ancient prayer to Mary the Mother of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 04:50:23 PM »

When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother.

John 19:26-27

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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2009, 04:59:54 PM »

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.
Now this is interesting. That's made by a pastor of Missouri-Synod and they have a statue of Theotokos in one of their churhes. Is that an extreme anomaly or is that pastor representing some low church wing of Missouri-Synod?
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2009, 05:09:17 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

It intrigues me that it is one of the commonest hymns loved by the Orthodox and the choir will often start to sing it spontaneously if they need to "fill in" some gap in the Service.  And when you suggest to people at home "Let's say some prayers" this is often what they start to sing.

Here is a small Wikipedia article on this ancient prayer to Mary the Mother of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium



Thanks now I have Sub tuum praesidium stuck in my mind.. not a bad thing either Smiley
Of course the Gregorian Chant version... I could only find a short clip of it for you all on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPEXrrFEf5A
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2009, 05:24:04 PM »

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.
Now this is interesting. That's made by a pastor of Missouri-Synod and they have a statue of Theotokos in one of their churhes. Is that an extreme anomaly or is that pastor representing some low church wing of Missouri-Synod?
Which church is this?
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2009, 05:37:54 PM »

Which church is this?

Zion Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Detroit
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2009, 05:58:34 PM »

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.
Now this is interesting. That's made by a pastor of Missouri-Synod and they have a statue of Theotokos in one of their churhes. Is that an extreme anomaly or is that pastor representing some low church wing of Missouri-Synod?

The LCMS has become almost Nestorian in their understanding of Mary and Christ.  A lot of "baptist" Lutherans will shudder at calling Mary, the Mother of God or Theotokos, even though that particular title was used in the old 1943 hymnal, which is still fairly commonplace in many LCMS congregatinos.  Rather than call Mary, MOther of God, they will call her Mother of Christ, which, in Greek, would be Christotokos and that is precisely the kind of talk that got Nestorius condemned at Ephesus in 431.  The LCMS has really turned her back on the appropriate honour due to Mary even though Luther himself was very devoted to our Lady.  The reason they do so is avoid any hint of Catholcisim.  Romaphobia is very prevalent in many LCMS congregations.  Again, they're becoming more Baptist.
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2009, 06:09:51 PM »

Historical devotion to her began when the Angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of Grace..."
Devotion was furthered when Gabriel appeared to Joseph in a dream...
It was again manifest when Elizabeth met her with a salutation after experiencing the devotion of her unborn firstborn within her womb and she was subsequently filled with the Holy Ghost.
It was again realized when Symeon made prophesies about her...
It was again manifest at the wedding feast...
It was again manifest when she was blessed by the women who were attempting to bless our Lord...
It was manifest when our Lord commended her care and welfare into the hands of John the Beloved..
It was again manifest in Acts when the Disciples were gathered around Her...

These do not exhaust all the passages of Scripture concerning her...
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2009, 06:31:00 PM »

Look at that, another vague narrative about the corruption of the Church.  So with him it did not start with "evil" Constantine, but rather with the "Dark Ages."

It's all about not being Catholic with these people.
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2009, 06:47:51 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.

Here it is:

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 “And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44 “For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45 “And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”

Mat. 2:11 After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him.
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2009, 06:51:00 PM »

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.
Now this is interesting. That's made by a pastor of Missouri-Synod and they have a statue of Theotokos in one of their churhes. Is that an extreme anomaly or is that pastor representing some low church wing of Missouri-Synod?

The LCMS has become almost Nestorian in their understanding of Mary and Christ.  A lot of "baptist" Lutherans will shudder at calling Mary, the Mother of God or Theotokos, even though that particular title was used in the old 1943 hymnal, which is still fairly commonplace in many LCMS congregatinos.  Rather than call Mary, MOther of God, they will call her Mother of Christ, which, in Greek, would be Christotokos and that is precisely the kind of talk that got Nestorius condemned at Ephesus in 431.  The LCMS has really turned her back on the appropriate honour due to Mary even though Luther himself was very devoted to our Lady.  The reason they do so is avoid any hint of Catholcisim.  Romaphobia is very prevalent in many LCMS congregations.  Again, they're becoming more Baptist.

I remember that when I was Lutheran as a kid, the Virgin Mary (or rather, just Mary) made a guest appearance at Christmas (hard to have a birth without a mother. Not that Protestants don't try).
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2009, 07:01:41 PM »

I remember that when I was Lutheran as a kid, the Virgin Mary (or rather, just Mary) made a guest appearance at Christmas (hard to have a birth without a mother. Not that Protestants don't try).

That is very true!  You see her in nativity scenes, and that is it!  Anything beyond that would be considered scandalous.

A Presbyterian I know has the idea that him simply acknowledging that she was blessed to have borne God in the flesh is all he is obligated to.  Much as his faith in Christ itself, it is an intellectual assenting to a proposition.  So agreeing that she is blessed covers it.
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2009, 07:08:05 PM »

Here is a small Wikipedia article on this ancient prayer to Mary the Mother of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

I took the liberty of fixing the picture in the corner.  No sense in having a Renaissance painting with a Coptic hymn.  I would have used something more ancient and specifically Coptic if I had such an icon, but for the time being that should do.
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2009, 07:58:06 PM »

Here is quote from St. Irenaeus (2nd Century):

Quote
(Eve), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.

Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 22)

If you read the whole thing (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103322.htm), you will see Irenaeus compares the Virgin Mary to Eve quite often, not only in chapter 22, but other chapters in his Against Heresies (the whole thing is on the Catholic Encyclopedia).
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2009, 08:05:45 PM »

I remember that when I was Lutheran as a kid, the Virgin Mary (or rather, just Mary) made a guest appearance at Christmas (hard to have a birth without a mother. Not that Protestants don't try).

The Lutheran church where I was confirmed has 'Ave Maria' written above the doors, and she is of course featured on the stained glass windows. So she wasn't entirely absent. However, very little attention is given to anything dogmatic or theological at all. Sermons were always about morals and every day life. Never did I hear any real mention of the Trinity or the Incarnation, so it would really surprise me if the blessed Virgin was given any time at all.
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2009, 08:38:08 PM »

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2009, 09:00:34 PM »

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.

I've just known this forever so I suppose the source is the blog in my head which passes for a brain.   Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2009, 09:03:09 PM »

I remember that when I was Lutheran as a kid, the Virgin Mary (or rather, just Mary) made a guest appearance at Christmas (hard to have a birth without a mother. Not that Protestants don't try).

The Lutheran church where I was confirmed has 'Ave Maria' written above the doors, and she is of course featured on the stained glass windows. So she wasn't entirely absent. However, very little attention is given to anything dogmatic or theological at all. Sermons were always about morals and every day life. Never did I hear any real mention of the Trinity or the Incarnation, so it would really surprise me if the blessed Virgin was given any time at all.

Are you Norwegian?  It makes a difference.
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2009, 09:08:26 PM »

[I've just known this forever so I suppose the source is the blog in my head which passes for a brain.   Smiley


There is good reason to believe that this may be termed a lived prayer - one
whose words were fashioned out of pressing need. When it was first used by
Christians, the "dangers" mentioned were a harsh reality for those who
uttered the words - dangers that spelled fierce persecution and horrible
death. For although this deceptively simple prayer was once regarded as
dating from the Middle Ages, it really goes back to third-century Egypt.

At that time, Christians were being battered by the persecution of the Roman
Emperors Septimius Severus (193-211) and Decius (249-251) and decimated by
deportations. Therefore, it was all too natural for such a short spontaneous
prayer to rise constantly to their lips. From them, it passed on to other
Christians, especially in their worship.

In the Coptic Rite of the third century, for instance, the Sub Tuum was part
of the liturgical office of Christmas. At the end of that century, Patriarch
Theonas of Alexandria built the first real church for local Christians (who
prior to that time were accustomed to assemble in homes and cemeteries) and
called it the Church of St Mary Virgin and Mother of God. Thus, it is
evident that Alexandrian Christians were already calling Mary the "Mother of
God" in the third century - long before St Athanasius, who was usually
credited with coining the phrase.

Indeed, the title "Mother of God" was a traditional one in Egypt even before
the advent of Christianity. It was originally the title given to Isis,
mother of the god Horus. The Coptic Christians, quite naturally, bestowed
this title on Mary - and they did so even before the Council of Ephesus
officially endorsed this exalted title for Mary in 431.

In addition, the great Alexandrian theologian Origen, who lived at the
beginning of the third century, set forth the reason why Mary could
rightfully be called the Mother of God. And the Greek term for "Mother of
God," Theotokos - because of its popularity in the Egyptian Church - became
a hallowed Marian title.

Thus, the Sub Tuum may be regarded as a precious heritage of the Egyptian
Church, which tradition tells us was founded by St Mark the Evangelist. It
is just another of the contributions of this Church that aided the formation
of the Christian Faith and also assisted at the birth of the monastic
movement.

In 1917, an innocent-looking papyrus leaf originating in Egypt found its way
into the John Rylands Library of Manchester, England. This set in motion a
series of events that had a great effect on Mariology. By the time the
experts completed their painstaking work of examining this three-and-a-half
by seven inch papyrus and the ten lines of Greek letters inscribed in
capitals on it, the year was 1938 and the term "Mother of God" was proven to
have been addressed to Mary a hundred years before previously thought.

For those who have thought this material looks familiar----

Here are two sources for this material:

Source #1 (Copyright 2003):
here

Source #2: here

The posting of these links will relieve OC.net of any statutory burden regarding plagiarism and the posting of copyrighted material.

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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2009, 09:12:43 PM »

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.

Greek Papyrus 470 in the John Rylands Library, Manchester, England
http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/eresources/imagecollections/
On the Insight Browser Viewer, search by Reference Number for
Greek  Papyrus 470, and then click on it to activate the magnify and zoom
functions.

Better yet:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_IY755_iUePk/RrqBwR2tyAI/AAAAAAAAARI/aoIHtrSlg4U/s1600-h/johnrylands470.jpg
http://theoblogoumena.blogspot.com/2007/08/john-rylands-papyrus-470.html

Theotokos is the first word in the fourth line.
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« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2009, 09:55:02 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.

the miaphysites like Severus of Antioch in the end of the fifth century/beginning of the sixth had strong devotions to Mary and celebrated feasts to her.  I have read this from Severus himself.  I would guess that it came long before that too.
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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2009, 10:10:29 PM »

We should also remember that the refrain for the 9th ode of the Canon (More honourable than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim...) was composed by st. Ephraim the Syrian and he lived in the early fourth century.
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« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2009, 10:46:36 PM »

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.

I've just known this forever so I suppose the source is the blog in my head which passes for a brain.   Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2009, 12:23:22 AM »

Indeed, the title "Mother of God" was a traditional one in Egypt even before
the advent of Christianity. It was originally the title given to Isis,
mother of the god Horus. The Coptic Christians, quite naturally, bestowed
this title on Mary - and they did so even before the Council of Ephesus
officially endorsed this exalted title for Mary in 431.

I am sorry to nitpick here, but can anyone provide evidence for the title Theotokos being previously ascribed to Isis?  It seems to me that it would be another point in favor of the critique that the Christian Church combated goddess worship with a goddess disguised in Christian terminology.
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2009, 01:03:31 AM »

This was touched on here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11813.0.html
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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2009, 12:29:02 PM »

Are you Norwegian?  It makes a difference.

Yes. I was under the impression that your Lutheran background was also due to Norwegian heritage, hence my comparison.
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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2009, 02:24:34 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.
There is a prayer to the Virgin Mary in the third century Alexandrian Liturgy. The third century is hardly the middle ages.
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« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2009, 03:13:31 PM »

Are you Norwegian?  It makes a difference.

Yes. I was under the impression that your Lutheran background was also due to Norwegian heritage, hence my comparison.

No, it was the Swedish and Prussian part, but close enough.

Norway was dragged into the reformation by Denmark, and Sweden was more like England than it was like Germany and Denmark: more reform, less radicalism. So a lot of things remained that the Danish and Germans, going for radical scrubbing, did away with.

So the German church we went to was much more low church, whereas Norway and Sweden are more high church.  And hence "Ave Maria."
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« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2009, 03:25:36 PM »

When did devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary actually begin? And what did the Eary Church Fathers say on this matter?

I know Youtube.com is not an excellent source, but I did see a video there, where a Lutheran Pastor says devotion to Mary began in the Dark Ages in the RC Church.

So, I am searching for the earliest documentaion on this matter.
There is a prayer to the Virgin Mary in the third century Alexandrian Liturgy. The third century is hardly the middle ages.
Which one is it?
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« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2009, 03:37:39 PM »

"Under your mercy, we take refuge, Mother of God, do not reject our supplications in necessity. But deliver us from danger. [You] alone chaste, alone blessed."
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« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2009, 04:14:09 PM »

"Under your mercy, we take refuge, Mother of God, do not reject our supplications in necessity. But deliver us from danger. [You] alone chaste, alone blessed."
Can you please tell me where it is documented as one of the oldest prayer to Our Blessed Mother?
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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2009, 07:21:58 PM »

I am sorry to nitpick here, but can anyone provide evidence for the title Theotokos being previously ascribed to Isis?  It seems to me that it would be another point in favor of the critique that the Christian Church combated goddess worship with a goddess disguised in Christian terminology.
--------------------------------------------

Isis was a goddess of silence (gave birth to silence).

The Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary gave real historical birth to God the Word.

Augustus who ruled Rome when the fullness of time came, was oppossed to the cult of Isis because of its pornographic rites and stopped the building of her temples because they perverted the moral fabric of Roman Society.  Even though these temples were being constructed to honor Julius Caeser who had been assassinated.

Modern cults of Isis are again appearing in conjunction with the rise of modern pornography.  Is this all incidental and circumstantial  or have we entered into that time when the demons which had been bound by the Church are being released upon the world again because of her Great Apostacy?

Augustus was oppossed to the Isis Cult at the time when the Virgin conceives and bears a Son.   Care to venture a guess as to which Roman Emperors were members of the cult of Isis?   Julian the Apostate was the last Emperor defender of that cult.
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« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2009, 08:55:34 PM »

"Under your mercy, we take refuge, Mother of God, do not reject our supplications in necessity. But deliver us from danger. [You] alone chaste, alone blessed."
Can you please tell me where it is documented as one of the oldest prayer to Our Blessed Mother?

The earliest hymn we have to the Mother of God comes to us from the Church of Alexandria, Egypt, from about the year 250.

Source, please.  Wikipedia gives none, so it might as well have come from a blog.

Greek Papyrus 470 in the John Rylands Library, Manchester, England
http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/eresources/imagecollections/
On the Insight Browser Viewer, search by Reference Number for
Greek  Papyrus 470, and then click on it to activate the magnify and zoom
functions.

Better yet:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_IY755_iUePk/RrqBwR2tyAI/AAAAAAAAARI/aoIHtrSlg4U/s1600-h/johnrylands470.jpg
http://theoblogoumena.blogspot.com/2007/08/john-rylands-papyrus-470.html

Theotokos is the first word in the fourth line.
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« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2009, 12:39:53 PM »

General reply to all, What do we make then, of the passage when the woman calls out "blessed is the womb that bore you..." and then Jesus says, "no, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it" ? Not trying to throw in a monkey wrench here, - really - but that has confused me for a long time.   
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« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2009, 12:53:59 PM »

General reply to all, What do we make then, of the passage when the woman calls out "blessed is the womb that bore you..." and then Jesus says, "no, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it" ? Not trying to throw in a monkey wrench here, - really - but that has confused me for a long time.   

Hi friend,

 Could you provide book and verse #'s please?
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« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2009, 02:16:28 PM »

The claim that icons of Mary were penned or painted by Luke are questionable at best, expecially given the various conflicting legends and evidence to the contrary. What we do know is what Luke wrote in his Gospel;

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it." 

Luk 8:19 And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You." 21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." 
 
If you study the history of Isis and Horus, the role of Egyptian cults in Rome and the subsequent evangelization of that culture, the reasons for the ensuing veneration of Mary will become readily apparent. Titles such as Queen of Heaven and Mother of God originated in the veneration of Isis, long before Mary came along.

Grace and Peace, Joe
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« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2009, 07:26:40 PM »

The claim that icons of Mary were penned or painted by Luke are questionable at best, expecially given the various conflicting legends and evidence to the contrary. What we do know is what Luke wrote in his Gospel;

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."
Mary said in Luke 1:48

 48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
 
Quote
Luk 8:19 And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You." 21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." 
I wonder what  reformers like Martin Luther said about Mary's perpetual viriginty:

 It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin." (Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis,Volume 11, pp. 319-320).

John Calvin agreed with him:

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." (Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.)

Ulrich Zwingli had the following to say:

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." (E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.)



 
Quote
If you study the history of Isis and Horus, the role of Egyptian cults in Rome and the subsequent evangelization of that culture, the reasons for the ensuing veneration of Mary will become readily apparent. Titles such as Queen of Heaven and Mother of God originated in the veneration of Isis, long before Mary came along.

Grace and Peace, Joe
So this is a cult that came out of Rome? You're going to catch some flak. laugh
 Anyway, I wasn't looking for a fundamentalist Christian opinion because I have heard them all. I know their interpretations are erroneous  since they never did coincide with the Early Church Traditions nor Writings. I posed the question here becasue the Orthodox share the rich tradition of devotion to Mary. If I wanted an erroneous fundamentalist opinion I would have gone to a fundamentalist forum.

I think you have been reading too many Jack Chick comic books. I have seen those accusations in his propaganda. Time to read the something else.

Peace to you as well
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« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2009, 09:30:44 PM »

Joe, thank you for posting the verses in question. I was too lazy to do it the other night, LOL
OK, so, general question again for whomever, I noticed in one of the first Holy Week services I went to, the chant was "Most Holy Theotokos, save us." What does it mean to ask Mary to save us? I need to explore some of these ideas, I need people's input. Thanks. c
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2009, 10:37:52 PM »

The claim that icons of Mary were penned or painted by Luke are questionable at best, expecially given the various conflicting legends and evidence to the contrary. What we do know is what Luke wrote in his Gospel;

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."
Mary said in Luke 1:48

 48For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
 
Quote
Luk 8:19 And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was reported to Him, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You." 21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." 
I wonder what  reformers like Martin Luther said about Mary's perpetual viriginty:

 It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin." (Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis,Volume 11, pp. 319-320).

John Calvin agreed with him:

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." (Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.)

Ulrich Zwingli had the following to say:

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary." (E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.)



 
Quote
If you study the history of Isis and Horus, the role of Egyptian cults in Rome and the subsequent evangelization of that culture, the reasons for the ensuing veneration of Mary will become readily apparent. Titles such as Queen of Heaven and Mother of God originated in the veneration of Isis, long before Mary came along.

Grace and Peace, Joe
So this is a cult that came out of Rome? You're going to catch some flak. laugh
 Anyway, I wasn't looking for a fundamentalist Christian opinion because I have heard them all. I know their interpretations are erroneous  since they never did coincide with the Early Church Traditions nor Writings. I posed the question here becasue the Orthodox share the rich tradition of devotion to Mary. If I wanted an erroneous fundamentalist opinion I would have gone to a fundamentalist forum.

I think you have been reading too many Jack Chick comic books. I have seen those accusations in his propaganda. Time to read the something else.

Peace to you as well

Indeed, Mary is blessed among women, which I never called into question.

I am not a fundamental protestant, nor did I employ their tactics or use their arguments. If I would have side stepped the points, made personal attacks and generally ignored the subject at hand as you did in your reply, I could understand the accusation. The history of Isis, the icons of her and her son Horus and the subsequent adaptation of the certain traditions associated with this cult into early Christianity is readily available. I doubt you will find the history in Chick tracts (I don't know as I have never read one), but if you are truly interested in the historical perspective, Will Durant covered the subject pretty well. Ignoring history and making unfounded accusations won't get you far though. If you don't want the truth, don't ask for it.

Grace and Peace, Joseph

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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2009, 10:55:39 PM »

General reply to all, What do we make then, of the passage when the woman calls out "blessed is the womb that bore you..." and then Jesus says, "no, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it" ? Not trying to throw in a monkey wrench here, - really - but that has confused me for a long time.   

...
when the Theotokos had the Word of God announced to her by the angel Gabriel, what did she do? "Let it be unto me as the Lord has said". When Christ taught in the temple at age 12, what did the Theotokos do? "she kept these things in her heart."

Christ is, as he often did, playing with his listener's/questioner's expectations in order to make a point they need to hear. When the woman called that out, he could have merely nodded politely--but the woman wouldn't have learned anything nor would we. Instead, here (and in the other quoted verse) He makes a point to His audience that is what *they* (and we) need to hear about listening to His words and keeping them. He doesn't go on to point out that "and oh yes, my actual mother is an exemplar of what I'm saying about hearing the Word of God and keeping it" because its not relevant to the lesson He is teaching at that moment. Think of other items like "call no man Teacher" (which comes after 'call no man Father' but which unlike the first no one ever seems to take literally) where Christ uses these rhetorical devices.

But the Church has from very early (documented as shown to the 2nd-3rd century) recognized what Christ left unsaid in those verses.
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« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2009, 01:07:37 AM »

If I would have side stepped the points, made personal attacks and generally ignored the subject at hand as you did in your reply, I could understand the accusation.
I think you side-stepped the issue by putting our Blessed Lady on par with Isis? Now you didn't expect that to be offensive? My question was regarding devotion to Mary within the Church. I didn't infer pagan origins, but I do think you read into that.

Quote
Ignoring history and making unfounded accusations won't get you far though
Likewise.

Quote
If you don't want the truth, don't ask for it.
I should've been more specific; I wanted an Orthodox perspective and I doubt I am getting that from you. I'll manage without your intellect.




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« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2009, 02:30:12 AM »

The history of Isis, the icons of her and her son Horus and the subsequent adaptation of the certain traditions associated with this cult into early Christianity is readily available. I doubt you will find the history in Chick tracts (I don't know as I have never read one).
Here's an excerpt from a Jack Chick tract supporting your rubbish:



Here's another supporting you theory on Isis and Horus:




http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp


I also wanted to know what the Church Fathers had to say regarding devotion to Mary. Do you have that information? If you don't, then don't answer.
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