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Author Topic: "Thou Art Peter"  (Read 44004 times) Average Rating: 0
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WWW
« Reply #315 on: December 22, 2003, 04:19:28 PM »

And what does WWPD mean? Is it something to do with wrestling or wildlife?

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« Reply #316 on: December 22, 2003, 04:22:26 PM »

And what does WWPD mean? Is it something to do with wrestling or wildlife?

PT

"What Would Peter Do?"

 Grin
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« Reply #317 on: December 22, 2003, 04:26:42 PM »

He'd put lock antifeeze in the doorlocks   Grin

Or don't you Yanks use it  ?

Me I keep our Ford tucked up in a garage under the house - and if it's really really cold it has a heater on if I know it has to go out in the morning.

PT Light dawned suddenly WWPD ="what would Peter do"  Grin :idea: - you know as in WWJD
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« Reply #318 on: December 22, 2003, 04:34:47 PM »

WWPD? WWJD? All sounds a bit Protestant to me.

WDTHCS - What do the Canons say? is good enough for me. Or WITCTOTF - What is the consistent teaching of the Fathers?

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« Reply #319 on: December 22, 2003, 11:14:25 PM »

Of course, WWPD was intended as a joke.

Don't you Brits tell those?

I know you do, because I love your comedy. It's even better than our own.

I'm still in mourning for Benny Hill.
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« Reply #320 on: December 23, 2003, 12:09:56 AM »

WWPD?
Probably tell me that I was being protected from the foolhardy attempt to travel 82 miles on ice-covered roads Cheesy , and that I should just accept it.

Doors were not locked. Our most humble adobe is so far in the boonies and at the end of my canine protected half-mile "drive-way" (unpaved path), that we never lock them. They just became ice-encased.
As to modern chemical means, well, I destroyed the doorlocks on my father's BMW one winter at college in Lexington, VA by employing these aids back in 1970.
Peter probably would say that my father was being protected from ever considering loaning me his ride again. Cheesy

{BTW, the slave, up here we call anti-freeze "blended Scotch"}

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« Reply #321 on: December 23, 2003, 05:38:00 AM »

I'm still in mourning for Benny Hill.

That's always been a bit of a mystery for us Brits. I think we were glad he became an export.

We do do comedy very well though.

I was watching Father Ted just last night, to keep the religious theme.

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« Reply #322 on: December 23, 2003, 08:03:20 AM »

Quote
I'm still in mourning for Benny Hill.

 Cheesy Cheesy  Cheesy  Cheesy

I was doing Benny Hill jokes at a very young age...once an elderly family friend was over, who happened to be bald...i took his hat off and patted his head repeatedly...Benny Hill would've been proud.

Pete, I also love "Mind Your Language"  Grin
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« Reply #323 on: December 23, 2003, 10:52:21 AM »

Oh crumbs - Father Ted  - I am assured it is very true to life  Grin Grin

I have to admit that I have identified some of the characters in our Diocese [ never admitted it there - I'd be excommunicated  Grin]

Benny Hill - well I still laugh at the repeats
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« Reply #324 on: December 23, 2003, 11:09:27 AM »

My favourites are Fawlty Towers and Dad's Army.

I have the scripts to both of these. I like some modern comedies in parts but find that they all seem to degenerate into smut too quickly.

I must admit to liking the Simpsons and finding it quite reflective of myself and my family. Sad

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« Reply #325 on: December 23, 2003, 11:20:52 AM »

Fawlty Towers - a classic if ever there was  Grin

How about Hycinth Bouquet ? Grin

I've definitely met her - many times
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« Reply #326 on: December 23, 2003, 11:27:44 AM »

"That's always been a bit of a mystery for us Brits."

Subdeacon Peter,

That is because Benny Hill was actually funny,  actual humor being something you Brits have trouble with... Grin

But since you like the Simpsons there maybe hope for you. Wink

My favorite prayer from the Simpsons:
"O Lord guide this cinderblock..." (Homer as he prepares to knockout Judge Harm)  

...something very Monty Python-Holy Handgrenade of Jerusalem about that.

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« Reply #327 on: December 23, 2003, 11:27:49 AM »

Yes, some of the Keeping Up Appearances episodes were very good.

I wonder if a comedy series could be based around any real life Orthodox communities?

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« Reply #328 on: December 23, 2003, 11:31:34 AM »

That is because Benny Hill was actually funny,  actual humor being something you Brits have trouble with... Grin

The only funny US progs are those with a rather sharp, ironic, earthy humour which is pretty much the English type. I like Roseanne as well. Used to watch Soap when much younger. But I find most US humour is set in households where the income must be over $1,000,000 and doesn't real hit the spot for me.

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« Reply #329 on: December 23, 2003, 11:42:16 AM »

Subdeacon Peter,

Yeah, I think that started with Different Strokers and the Cosby Show, which I liked, but come on.  What happened to Sanford & Son, Good Times, All in the Family...and I know you are going to remind that S&S and AITF are rip offs of Brit programs. Wink

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« Reply #330 on: December 23, 2003, 12:45:59 PM »

I love Keeping Up Appearances! Hyacinth is hilarious, but a big part of that is watching the expressions on the face of her husband, Richard. Her relatives are just awesome. What a wonderful program.

I also like Last of the Summer Wine. Do you all watch that one?

I will probably be stoned to death for saying it, but I am a fan of Mr. Bean, as well.

American comedies tend to go for the smut very early and in a big and obvious way.

Seinfeld was very good when they avoided the smut.

The old shows, like The Dick Van Dyke Show and The Andy Griffith Show, were superb.

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« Reply #331 on: December 23, 2003, 02:56:21 PM »

Yes Last of the Summer Wine is a Sunday evening tradition, and has been for most of my life. Only Fools and Horses, what about that? And My Family is fun, that's a newer comedy.

I do like some of the US stuff like Malcolm in the Middle as well. All the ones about families struggling to muddle along really.

Mr Bean is funny, although it has grown rather thin, like a good sketch stretched a little too far.

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« Reply #332 on: December 25, 2003, 12:51:54 AM »

I don't recall having seen Only Fools and Horses or My Family, but I don't think I've ever seen a complete episode of Malcolm in the Middle either.

How about As Time Goes By? I like that one a lot, with Judi Dench and Geoffrey Palmer. They make a great team. Very funny.
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« Reply #333 on: December 25, 2003, 01:03:37 AM »

Most of the comedy I watch are British imports....go figure....Having just finished "Blackadder's Christmas Carol" Grin
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« Reply #334 on: December 25, 2003, 08:13:15 AM »

Yes, Blackadder is good as well. Well some of them. Some of them are too crude.

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« Reply #335 on: December 25, 2003, 09:59:00 AM »

Personally, I prefer Red Dwarf....
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« Reply #336 on: December 25, 2003, 04:31:08 PM »

Ah, yes, of course. It's good to see that you get so many of our best comedies over in the US.

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« Reply #337 on: January 28, 2004, 10:30:17 AM »

Has anyone mentioned the wonderful show, The Office?
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« Reply #338 on: January 28, 2004, 10:38:56 AM »

I didn't think that may of you would have seen that, or got the humour.

I found it rather patchy. Very funny in places but a bit poor in others.

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« Reply #339 on: January 28, 2004, 02:17:12 PM »

Red Dwarf is a big fave for my dh and me. Raunchy sometimes but often side-splittingly hilarious.

I just logged onto this thread and started bass-ackward at page 23. This TV-show review is fascinating, but what does it have to do with "Thou Art Peter"?

Blessings,

ZT, follower of Peter's successor
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« Reply #340 on: January 28, 2004, 02:36:49 PM »

Nothing, but that's the way of forums and threads.

There are plenty of threads still dealing with the Petrine Succession and what it means and what it doesn't mean so catch one of them quick before they mutate into something else Smiley

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« Reply #341 on: January 29, 2004, 08:05:39 PM »

Quote
but equating the Bishop of Rome exclusively with Peter is what i was referring to. The Bishop of Rome was always Peter, providing he remained in the faith of Peter.

  I don't see what's too inconsistent about this. I can agree that it should be noted that St. Peter was in Antioch (traditionally the first diocese established by him).

  But exclusively, I don't see why that's inconsistent. I believe it was St. Ambrose, or example, who said that "Where Peter is, there is the Church."

  His last place was Rome (however, if anyone denies that Antioch has no significance, anathema sit :->).
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« Reply #342 on: January 29, 2004, 08:07:21 PM »

Correction:

**If anyone says that Antioch has no importance, anathema sit
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« Reply #343 on: January 29, 2004, 09:08:16 PM »

wrong..
"Where the Local Bishop is, there is the Church. "
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« Reply #344 on: January 29, 2004, 11:12:26 PM »

wrong..
"Where the Local Bishop is, there is the Church. "


   That too was said, brother sd, but the quote I put was spoken as well.
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« Reply #345 on: February 09, 2005, 08:29:05 PM »

I have a question on a few quotes:

"'The confession of Peter, therefore, cannot be separated from Peter himself. Petra or rock does not simply refer to Peter's faith but also to Peter personally. There is a formal and real identity between Petros and petra. Jesus will build the church upon Cephas.' (p. 48)."

Doesnt this quote contradict this one?:

"In fact, Cyprian, unwilling to grant even a simple primacy to the Bishop of Rome, considers that "the whole body of bishops is
addressed in Peter." St. Cyprian rightly concludes that the "Rock is the unity of faith, not the person of Peter." (De Catholicae
Ecclesiae Unitate, cap. 4-5)

Thanks for your help! 


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« Reply #346 on: February 09, 2005, 08:54:13 PM »

You have picked one heck of a topic, but I can say if you search the site there should be plenty here.

My own 2 zolties worth and being a member of the Roman Rite & a maverick of sorts I tend to side with the Orthodox in it being a position of honor and respect which developed into something quite different from the early days of the Church.

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« Reply #347 on: February 09, 2005, 08:59:10 PM »

Thanks for your reply! Can you give me any idea as to where to look?  Like any links?  Thanks!
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« Reply #348 on: February 09, 2005, 09:35:37 PM »

I found a site on OC.net, and I was doing some reading.  It appears as if this issue isn't set in stone in Orthodoxy.  Some say that Peter's confession and person was the Rock, and others that only Peter's confession was the rock. 

So, as a future convert, which do I believe?  Is it up to me to pick?  Thanks! 
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« Reply #349 on: February 24, 2005, 04:00:41 AM »

I am a newbie here and keen to read this thread but,
phew, so many posts. Shocked Can I make a contribution all the same?

Here is a quick summary of the way that
the Church Fathers interpreted that verse -
"Thou are Peter and upon this rock...."

Archbishop Kenrick, who was one of America's
extraordinary bishops, was opposed to the doctrine of
papal infallibilty and at the First Vatican Council
in 1869 he voted against it. He wanted to deliver
a speech against the proposed doctrine at the Council
but instead he ceased to attend the Council meetings.
He published his speech in Naples the following year.

It is important because he lists the five different
patristic interpretations of Matthew 16:18.


Let's look at how the Church Fathers line up over this verse:


1...."That St. Peter is the Rock" is taught
by seventeen (17) Fathers


2....That the whole Apostolic College is the Rock,
represented by Peter as its chief,
is taught by eight (8 ) Church Fathers


3....That St. Peter's faith is the Rock,
is taught by forty-four (44) Church Fathers


4....That Christ is the Rock,
is taught by sixteen Fathers (16)

5....That the rock is the whole body of the faithful.
Archbp. Kenrick gives no figure.


Archbishop Kenrick summarises

"If we are bound to follow the greater number
of Fathers in this matter,** then we must hold
for certain that the word "Petra" means not Peter
professing the Faith, but the faith professed by Peter."

**This is an important point by Archbishop Kenrick and
it should be given its full weight. It is RC doctrine
that where there is something disputed the choice must
be made for the consensus of the Fathers, the
consensus patrum.

You can look this up and check that I have it
accurately in
Friedrich, Docum ad illust. Conc. Vat. 1, pp. 185-246

As to who Archbishop Kenrick was.
Please see the Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08618a.htm

Now in light of the fact that the large majority
of the Church Fathers do NOT teach that the Rock
is Saint Peter, I say that it is not fair to say that the
Orthodox are dunderheads over this matter.
Are the Church Fathers also dunderheads?


And you should remember that 65 of the bishops gathered
at the First Vatican Council REFUSED to vote for the
proposed dogma of papal infallibility. Were they
also blockheads? Wouldn't one say that IF the doctrine
had been so normal and accepted in the Catholic Church
in the centuries prior to Vatican I that there would
never have been such a solid block of resisting bishops
who refused to vote for it in 1869.
This was only 133 years ago, quite recently.

You can check these facts in several major Catholic writings...

"How the Pope Became Infallible" by August Bernhard Hasler.
"Infallible? - An Unresolved Enquiry" by Hans Kung.

They say that at the opening of Vatican I only 50 bishops
were in favour of Pope Pius IX's desire to have the Popes
declared infallible. 130 of the bishops had declared
beforehand that they were against Papal Infallibility,
and the rest of the bishops, 620 were undecided.










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« Reply #350 on: February 24, 2005, 01:34:58 PM »

On Tuesday the Roman Rite, celebrated/honored the Chair Of St. Peter. Though I use a older Roman Breviary I checked my 1976 editions of The Liturgy of the Hours and found the closing Morning/Evening Prayers for that day interesting.

"All-powerful Father, you have built your Church on the rock of Saint Peter's confession of faith. May nothing divide or weaken our unity in faith and love".

Very different from previous ideas.

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« Reply #351 on: February 24, 2005, 04:14:51 PM »

Irish Hermit,

Quote
**This is an important point by Archbishop Kenrick and
it should be given its full weight.  It is RC doctrine
that where there is something disputed the choice must
be made for the  consensus of the Fathers, the
consensus patrum.

That's not what I understand to be the case.  While that is generally how theological issues are weighted in "pro or con" cases, in the end they (the Fathers) are not superior to the magisterium (teaching authority of the Church, which the RCC teaches is supremely wielded by the Popes), since they themselves were (strictly speaking) it's subjects as well.

Besides this though...I'm not even sure the patristic citations that were numerated by this dissenting Bishop actually demonstrate the "con" case since that would require all such citations to be of equal weight and be speaking in the same context.  For example, demonstrating that many Fathers identified "the rock" with Christ, or St.Peter's faith, does not invalidate the testimony of those who identified "the rock" with St.Peter himself, or later, the dynasty of Roman Bishops.  In fact, I'm quite sure pro-Papal arguments could (and do) say that "the rock" is to be identified with all three (Christ, the true faith, the papacy - and by extension, the genuine episcopate).

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« Reply #352 on: February 24, 2005, 06:24:22 PM »

Irish Hermit,



That's not what I understand to be the case. While that is generally how theological issues are weighted in "pro or con" cases, in the end they (the Fathers) are not superior to the magisterium (teaching authority of the Church, which the RCC teaches is supremely wielded by the Popes), since they themselves were (strictly speaking) it's subjects as well.

Besides this though...I'm not even sure the patristic citations that were numerated by this dissenting Bishop actually demonstrate the "con" case since that would require all such citations to be of equal weight and be speaking in the same context. For example, demonstrating that many Fathers identified "the rock" with Christ, or St.Peter's faith, does not invalidate the testimony of those who identified "the rock" with St.Peter himself, or later, the dynasty of Roman Bishops. In fact, I'm quite sure pro-Papal arguments could (and do) say that "the rock" is to be identified with all three (Christ, the true faith, the papacy - and by extension, the genuine episcopate).

Dear Augustine,
Your august but oft-mistaken Saint in his mature years came to the conclusion that "the rock" is not Peter but it is the confession of faith in the divinity of Christ.

This is one in the eye for the Roman contention that the Early Church Fathers taught that the Rock was Peter. Here we have St Augustine , after more than 400 years of Church life, asserting that Peter is NOT the Rock. This is proof certain that there was no consensus in the Church among her holy and learned men, not even amomng the Popes.  His statement is all the more important since he is writing this in his Retractions in his mature years when he is correcting the mistakes of his youth and conforming his doctrine to the accepted faith of the Church.
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« Reply #353 on: February 26, 2005, 05:21:04 PM »

You have picked one heck of a topic, but I can say if you search the site there should be plenty here.

My own 2 zolties worth and being a member of the Roman Rite & a maverick of sorts I tend to side with the Orthodox in it being a position of honor and respect which developed into something quite different from the early days of the Church.

james, awaiting excommunication & being labeled a schismatic

Don't worry about that too much.  You're probably just not ultramontain in your beliefs.  In my view, the office of Peter is more than just the guy who gets to sit down first at meetings.  At the same time, the rest of the bishops are more than district managers.  These views exist at the extremes, in my opinion.
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« Reply #354 on: February 26, 2005, 05:25:46 PM »

Jack,

Did you read my reply # 350 & your thoughts.

james
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« Reply #355 on: April 08, 2005, 12:23:44 PM »

"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they would not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard."
Saint Augustine- The True Religion, 7,12, 397 A.D.

"Before His suffering the Lord Jesus Christ, as you know, chose His disciples, whom He called Apostles. Among these Apostles almost everywhere Peter alone merited to represent the whole Church. For the sake of his representing the whole Church, which he alone could do, he merited to hear, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven (Matt 16:19)."
Saint Augustine- Sermons 295,2, 391 A.D.

"Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of GOD is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock and they refuse to believe that the keys of the kingdom of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church." Saint Augustine- Christian Combat 31,33, 396 A.D.

"There is one GOD and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the Word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering."
Letter of Cyprian to All His People, 43,40,5, 251 A.D.

"The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Sorer having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth."
Saint Irenaeus Adversus Haereses, Book III, chapter 3-3

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but Your Blessedness, that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails."
Letter of Jerome to Pope Damasus, 374 A.D. 15,2 J1346
"He who is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!"
Letter of Jerome to Pope Damasus, 374 A.D., 16,2 J1346a

"Yet, though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. But since by reason of my sins I have betaken myself to this desert which lies between Syria and the uncivilized waste, I cannot, owing to the great distance between us, always ask of your sanctity the holy thing of the Lord. Consequently I here follow the Egyptian confessors who share your faith, and anchor my frail craft under the shadow of their great argosies. I know nothing of Vitalis; I reject Meletius; I have nothing to do with Paulinus. He that gathers not with you scatters; he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist."
Letter of Jerome to Pope Damasus, 376 A.D., 2

"I thank you for your reminder concerning the canons of the Church. Truly, "whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." Still I would assure you that nothing is more my aim than to maintain the rights of Christ, to keep to the lines laid down by the fathers, and always to remember the faith of Rome; that faith which is praised by the lips of an apostle, and of which the Alexandrian church boasts to be a sharer."
Letter of Jerome to Pope Theophilus, 397 A.D., 2

"Clement, of whom the apostle Paul writing to the Philippians says "With Clement and others of my fellow-workers whose names are written in the book of life, "the fourth bishop of Rome after Peter, if indeed the second was Linus and the third Anacletus, although most of the Latins think that Clement was second after the apostle. He wrote, on the part of the church of Rome, an especially valuable Letter to the church of the Corinthians, which in some places is publicly read, and which seems to me to agree in style with the epistle to the Hebrews which passes under the name of Paul but it differs from this same epistle, not only in many of its ideas, but also in respect of the order of words, and its likeness in either respect is not very great. There is also a second Epistle under his name which is rejected by earlier writers, and a Disputation between Peter and Appion written out at length, which Eusebius in the third book of his Church history rejects. He died in the third year of Trajan and a church built at Rome preserves the memory of his name unto this day."
Saint Jerome- De viris Illustribus 15, 400 A.D.
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