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Author Topic: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH  (Read 14514 times) Average Rating: 0
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2009, 02:17:24 AM »

Who is the moderator of this section?

Right! It's not Peter The Aleut.

How about respecting the moderator of this section Peter?

There's a lot of room for improvement in your own work, Why do you have to meddle in the job of others?

Why allure others to your own sections?

Are you a schadenfreuder? A control freak? 

Did the moderator ask for help? If so, help, instead of ruining the job of others.

As a way of protesting and standing up against your abuses, I will not participate in the thread you started about the union between catholics and world orthodoxy. I'll start my own when I really want to discuss that specific subject. Thnx, but no thnx.




You have the "Report to Moderator" function available to you.  Use it if you want to complain about me.
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« Reply #91 on: June 21, 2009, 10:34:45 AM »

I will start a thread on this, in the politics forum, there we can talk.

Will you answer my question on your statement of EO being killed in Japan and China here in this thread or in another public forum thread?  That is not political but a matter of historical information regarding actions taken in those two countries.  I am seriously interested in finding out since it touches on Asian affairs which, as other posters can attest, is something that I have a deep interest in.

Thank you in advance.

Ebor
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« Reply #92 on: June 21, 2009, 12:57:27 PM »

Dear NorthernPines

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

Thanks for the clarification!


Quote
It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution,

I think it's more accurate to say that there were secular Jews involved, but they certainly weren't the only ones. I'd rather not go into the politics of Russia or the Soviets but, I don't think it's fair to say Jews were the ONLY people involved, many Russians, and probably mostly Russians were responsible for the Revolution. The Russian Empire had become corrupt and brutal, not to mention complete in love with "the world"....St. Theophan wrote about the state of 'Holy Russia' a few times in his letters and he didn't seem to be all that impressed with it. (though it was never something he was over concerned about either)

But I'll concede, that yes, some secular Jews were involved. Of course, so were secular Russians, so I don't really see the point. Russians were responsible for brutal treatment of the Alaskan Natives (according to St. Herman)....every ethnic group has done some horrible things in history, Greeks, Serbians, Poles, Italians, Irish, Arabs...no one is clean, and all have blood on their hands as an ethnic group. And yet, as Scripture says, the children shall not pay for the sins of the father. So just because England was brutal and cruel to Ireland at some time in the past, doesn't mean I have ANY bad feelings against English people. I frankly do not care because we're all part of the single family of humanity and all are fallen.




Quote

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath. Will there anyone be judged for crimes against humanity? Will the soviet holocaust receive so much dissemination? Will antichristianity be condemned? Will survivors and other victims receive compensation, and retributive justice? Will the jews be forced to apologize and be closely monitored so that this massacre is never repeated? Will True Orthodox Christians become the "untouchables" and the slightest criticism towards them will be considered as antichristianity, racism, hate propaganda, intolerance and the like?

The only sense I can agree with you here on, is yes, I also feel as though we are a bit to sensitive when it comes to Israel. Any criticism against Israel is deemed "racist" and anti semitic....this is wrong, but that is the secular nation of Israel. Not "the Jews"...anymore than the "evil Empire" made Russians "evil"...many people grew up in the 40's and 50's being taught that Russians were evil and wanted to take over the world......now we know Russians are just like everyone else, including the Jews. They are just people trying to live the best they can and know how. One cannot blame the Jews for Communism anymore than one can blame the Greeks for the cruelty of the Byzantine Empire. Yes, both are bad things, atheistic domination, and religious Empires run amok, but the people involved are long dead. I cannot, as a Christian hold people living today responsible for something that happened 100 yrs ago, or 1000 yrs ago.

It's time for us to realize that we are all one race, the human race......and tribal and religious warfare must end.





Quote
Will the True Russian Orthodox Christians have so much power as to boss other religions round, and force them to remove what they don't like labeling it as antichristianity? ........

Well, Russian Orthodox Christians did get to boss everyone around for nearly 1000 years. And to me that wasn't right either. Yet I don't hold the Russian people responsible for some of the more cruel Tsars that ruled Russia at various times. I don't hold Greeks responsible collectively as a  "people" for Iconoclasm, because an equal amount of Greeks were Iconodules. Do you see that people are people; good ones and bad ones, across all ethnic identities? What makes a person bad is not their ethnic identity but they way they LIVE as individuals. What makes nations bad is they way they act collectively.....Nazi Germany was bad because of the way it acted, not because of the fact that they were "Germans". What makes Israel the nation "bad" at times is not the fact that they are Jews, but the fact that the government wants power. But that's not the people. The people, from what I've been told and heard, on the ground, can still get along, until those in power butt in and take control. There are a select few people of ALL ethnicitiesthat desire power above all else, but it doesn't make them all bad. Even those that use religion (and I consider "devout" atheism like Stalin's a religion) as an excuse to control people, like Stalin are bad not because of the religion per se (I know of atheists who wouldn't hurt a fly) but because they want power.

Have you ever seen or read Lord of the Rings? IMO it totally gets this issue right. If you've never seen the movies, or if you've never thought of the underlying Christian themes, I suggest you read about them, then watch the movies again.


I hope and pray you can see that people are just people, whether Jews, Muslim's Arabs, Greeks, Russians, Christians, Hindus whatever......it makes no difference, Christ died for them all, including you and me.

In Peace,

NP



« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 01:04:12 PM by NorthernPines » Logged
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« Reply #93 on: June 21, 2009, 05:41:41 PM »

Dear NorthernPines

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity. According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath. Will there anyone be judged for crimes against humanity? Will the soviet holocaust receive so much dissemination? Will antichristianity be condemned? Will survivors and other victims receive compensation, and retributive justice? Will the jews be forced to apologize and be closely monitored so that this massacre is never repeated? Will True Orthodox Christians become the "untouchables" and the slightest criticism towards them will be considered as antichristianity, racism, hate propaganda, intolerance and the like? Will the True Russian Orthodox Christians have so much power as to boss other religions round, and force them to remove what they don't like labeling it as antichristianity? ........


But specifically, in this thread, I was talking about the traditions of today's religious jews, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church.




Utter and complete non-sense.

It was in fact Stalin that precipitated the Russian Holocaust against the Church with zeal . He was born Orthodox if I am not mistaken and he certainly was not Jewish.

Various anti-semites would have yo believe Lenin was a Jew. Another fabrication. His maternal Grandfather may have been Jewish ( no one is totally sure). He and his parents were Baptised Christians.

The only actual Jew at the top of the leadership was Trotsky who was himself persecuted by Stalin, thrown out of the country and eventally murdered by an agent of Stalin in Mexico.

 
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« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2009, 05:46:05 PM »

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

So for you "Jewish" is a genetic condition?  People who may have had Jewish ancestors but are not practicing Jews themselves are still "Jewish"?  What of people who are not of that ethnicity but convert to Judaism?  What of people who are now Christian but who had some ancestor who was Jewish?  How far back in a person's lineage does it go, if this is the case, please?

Quote
It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity.

Will you please give some sources and numbers?  Also, Stalin was not Jewish and he is responsible for much of the evil of the mid-20th  century in Russia, was he not?

Quote
According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

Will you please give some of these sources also?  Are they in English?  Also, when you write that this happened in Japan, you are bringing up a country whose history is a particular interest of mine as may be seen in various threads here on the forum. With the Japanese occupations in Korea, Manchuria and parts of Siberia before and during WWII, I have some knowledge of these areas as well.   To what are you referring to with regards to killing of EO in Japan and China?  What dates or locations are you thinking of, please? Japan's interactions with Russia date to the late 19th century and of course there is the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05.  But that is, of course, before the Revolution.

Quote
It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide

Done by the Soviets against such groups as the Ukrainians (the "Holodomor" famine) the "White Russians" from 1917 to 1923, people who did not support the Communist regime among others?  These are not unknown or hidden bits of history.  The Soviet government also killed persons of Jewish extraction who did not support them, such as Osip Mandelstam.  Stalin himself is reported to have been anti-Semitic (see Stalin's Secret War by the British writer Nikolai Tolstoy).  There's plenty more death and suppression from the Soviet rulers directed at many different groups.

Quote
, and the role of atheistic jews in it

Or of atheistic non-Jews such as Stalin and other Soviet officials?


Quote
But specifically, in this thread, I was talking about the traditions of today's religious jews, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church.

Which frankly don't appear to be true according to postings by RC members of the forum.  Singing a song that has an origin in Hebrew is not practicing a "Jewish tradition" any more then if I were to sing an Russian song or an EO hymn would have me "practicing an EO tradition".  At least I wouldn't be somehow becoming Russian or EO by doing so.   Your statement about 10 "assistants" doesn't apply since there doesn't seem to be any requirement for that many acolytes in an RC service, nor "7" officiants. (I know that sometimes EO services have a number of altar boys taking turns in helping. If there are 10 of them does that make the EO service follow a "Jewish tradition"?  I don't think so.) You have not established that these numbers have any connection to either Religion. 

You seem to be making accusations of things that you don't like against other people of whom you don't approve or like.

 Undecided

Ebor





You need to go to the various racial formulations Nazi Germany used to determine if you are Jewish. .. Do we Orthodox really want to be is such company??
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« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2009, 06:01:29 PM »

I just looked it up. When he was very young, Stalin was enrolled in the Tiflis Theological Seminary.
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« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2009, 06:07:33 PM »


Various anti-semites would have yo believe Lenin was a Jew. Another fabrication. His maternal Grandfather may have been Jewish ( no one is totally sure). He and his parents were Baptised Christians.

The only actual Jew at the top of the leadership was Trotsky who was himself persecuted by Stalin, thrown out of the country and eventally murdered by an agent of Stalin in Mexico.

 

Marc, please try to be objective...

I am not an anti-Semite at all. Let me just tell you that several of my real good lifelong friends are Jewish and several friends of my parents, whom I treated and continue to treat literally as my "uncles" and "aunts," were/are Jewish.

But to say what you said above is an untruth. In 1917-1939, Jews absolutely dominated in all governmental offices of the former USSR. Here is but a short list of names:

Zinoviev (Apfelbaum) - the Chairman of the Komintern ("Communist International" - technically a higher position in the Communist hierarchy than Lenin's);

Kamenev (Rosenfeld) - the Chairman of the city of Moscow Communist Party organization, the Chairman of the VSNKh (the office that supervised all industry), a Politburo member;

Yaroslavsky (Gubelman) - the head of the Leage of Militant Atheists (the organization that supervised the demise of churches, the killings of priests, etc.);

Yagoda (Yehuda) - the chief of the NKVD (People's Comissariat of Internal Affairs, actually the secret police responsible of murder of millions of innocent people, unbelievable cruelties, torture, organizing executions of millions of peasants by artificial famine, etc.);

Kaganovich - a powerful Politburo member who held many positions, including the People's Comissar of Heavy Industry, the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, the Minister of Education of the USSR (among others) (actually an obedient secretary and lackey of Stalin who was notorious for his cruelty);

Frinovsky, Berman, and several others whose last names I do not recall right now, but who all had Jewish names - the chief executive officers of GULAG;

Litvinov (Vallach) - a Lithuanian Jew who had trouble speaking grammatical Russian, served as the People's Comissar of Foreign Affairs...

... and hundreds of others.

I will dig some hard numbers for you if you like.

Now. I am not suppporting the claims of the OP and I am not really even interested in tracing Jewish traits in Catholicism or elewhere. But I can't stand it when facts are profoundly distorted for some sort of PC.
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« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2009, 06:36:26 PM »

Arguing over whether Jews were involved at top levels of the early Bolshevik government is pointless.

By the late Soviet era, they were harrassed and persecuted by the Soviet authorities. That's why they took every opportunity to leave the Soviet Union and flee to Israel.

So even some of them were involved in the establishment of the Soviet state, the irrefutable fact is, the Soviet state turned on them too.
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« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2009, 06:49:34 PM »

Arguing over whether Jews were involved at top levels of the early Bolshevik government is pointless.

By the late Soviet era, they were harrassed and persecuted by the Soviet authorities. That's why they took every opportunity to leave the Soviet Union and flee to Israel.

So even some of them were involved in the establishment of the Soviet state, the irrefutable fact is, the Soviet state turned on them too.

I would agree with the above, except the word "some."

Very many, very many of them were "involved in the establishment of the Soviet state." The sad fact remains, they actually created the Soviet state. Without them it would not exist. Yes, later it devoured many of them, but it would be a big lie to whitewash them and to say that only "some" of them "collaborated" with Communists or something like that. Or, as Marc wrote above, that "only Trotsky was a real Jew in the Communist government, and even he was murdered by Stalin because he was a Jew." That's a classical PC, a lie, a complete twisting of the facts, and, as such, a thing that does not help anything.
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« Reply #99 on: June 21, 2009, 08:02:13 PM »

One wonders why the Russian gentiles so easily allowed the soviets to take over? It seems to be a constant circular power struggle in these slavic lands. Jews are oppressed, but eventually manage to rise to the top again. Then the gentiles lash out at the Jews in resentment, killing many. Then the cycle repeats itself-seemingly endlessly. One would think there'd be a less violent, more balanced way of distributing the power, etc.

I was recently thinking about the massacre which took place in 1941, at Babi Yar, in Kiev. Have been there and gazed pensively into the ravine.  Over 33,000 Jews were ruthlessly murdered in two days, together with some Roma, Orthodox priests, Ukrainian nationalists etc. But it seems the Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis at Babi Yar. And many Ukrainians informed on the Jews too. This seems so hard for me to comprehend. How and why would people inform on their fellow countrymen-regardless of religion?  Huh Also, the chief synagogue in Kiev was turned into a puppet theatre during the Soviet Regime.

I struggle to understand this complex situation...
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« Reply #100 on: June 21, 2009, 08:58:56 PM »

One wonders why the Russian gentiles so easily allowed the soviets to take over? It seems to be a constant circular power struggle in these slavic lands. Jews are oppressed, but eventually manage to rise to the top again. Then the gentiles lash out at the Jews in resentment, killing many. Then the cycle repeats itself-seemingly endlessly. One would think there'd be a less violent, more balanced way of distributing the power, etc.

I was recently thinking about the massacre which took place in 1941, at Babi Yar, in Kiev. Have been there and gazed pensively into the ravine.  Over 33,000 Jews were ruthlessly murdered in two days, together with some Roma, Orthodox priests, Ukrainian nationalists etc. But it seems the Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis at Babi Yar. And many Ukrainians informed on the Jews too. This seems so hard for me to comprehend. How and why would people inform on their fellow countrymen-regardless of religion?  Huh Also, the chief synagogue in Kiev was turned into a puppet theatre during the Soviet Regime.

I struggle to understand this complex situation...

Rosehip, I understand your struggle...

My own great-grandmother, who was half-Russian (from a very aristocratic, noble family) and half-Ukrainian, and a widow of a guy who was 100% Greek, survived the German occupation of Kyiv, living in her room in the "communal" apartment on the Saksagans'koho Street, just a few blocks from the Tolstoy Square and the Shevchenko Boulevard downtown. Her daughter (my maternal grandmother) and her granddaugher (my mother, who was only 11 when the war began) - escaped to the Omsk oblast, where my maternal grandma had some relatives, -  but my great-grandmother most stubbornly refused to leave Kyiv, saying that the Germans will not last long anyway.

A number of her neighbors in that "communal apartment" were Jews. When the Germans announced that all Jews of Kyiv must take all their belongings and move to the designated places to be "evacuated," these residents of my great-grandma's apartment did exactly what was asked of them to do. No one had any doubts that they would be transported to some place where the life would be better for them (and, as some "Aryans" sarcastically said, they would not any longer mess with their neighbours' lives). Many older Jews recalled how Germans who occupied Kyiv in 1918 were kind to them and how the Germans were generally a "civilized, kind, intelligent people." There were rumors that the Jews would be transported to Germany (""c'mon, everybody knows that these Germans just love Jews!"), or to some exotic land (Madagascar?), etc.

I later read in some non-Soviet sources that, actually, some number of Jews who were Kyiv residents were, in fact, made, forced, to board trains and leave Kyiv, no one knows to what destination.

In the Babyn Yar (Russ. Babiy Yar), indeed, the Germans organized some sort of a camp for various prisoners, and a lot of them were shot there with the help of machine guns. And indeed, just like you wrote, those who were executed included some members of the Ukrainian nationalist underground (the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya," UPA), as well as some Communists captured by the German Army, and also, probably, common criminals, or psychiatric patients whom the Nazis regarded as not worth living). To what extent the testimonies that "all Jews were driven to the Babyn Yar and shot there" are true - I really do not know, because I have read the most conflicting, the most outrageously contradicting testimonies on this issue.

What I have heard from my great-grandma, however, was that neither she nor anyone she knew in Kyiv "collaborated" with the Nazis in any way, "telling" them on Jews. In the late 1944, when Kyiv was re-captured by the Soviet Army, some of her former Jewish - VERY Jewish - neighbors who disappeared in 1941 - Sara Mikhailovna Peisakhovich, Sofia Mikhailovna (actually Moiseevna) Bogatyrskaya, and a few others - suddenly re-appeared, alive and well, and occupied their rooms in her Saksagans'koho Street "communal" apartment.

Now, I am not writing all this to say that Jews were not harmed at all by the Nazis. Of course they were! And of course, most definitely, many of them were captured, humiliated, tortured, massacred by the Nazis.

But so were many non-Jews.

And yet, the mere fact that there were many, many, many, MANY non-Jewish people who were massacred by the Nazis in the lands that the German Army occupied in te 1940-s, is seldom, if ever, even mentioned.

And the fact that more Ukrainian peasants were killed by the artificial starvation of 1932-33 organized by Lazar Kaganovich and Henrich Yagoda (Yehuda) than Jews killed during the "Holocaust," remains a TABOO. It can NEVER be mentioned, wrote about, appreciated, wept about.

This makes me suspect that in the eyes of the world, to a very large extent "directed" by Zionist Jews, my people, Ukrainians - as well as many other peoples - are LESS important, less valuable, less HUMAN than the "God's chosen people."

But to Northen Americans, none of this matters...
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« Reply #101 on: June 21, 2009, 09:28:50 PM »

Dear Ebor,

I am not ignoring your question, I just need time to collect, translate, summarize and process the information, to start a new thread on the New Martyrs and Confessors of the XX century. It's quite an extensive topic, and it can go out of hand if I don't present it in the right way.

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« Reply #102 on: June 21, 2009, 10:28:08 PM »

Heorhij,
Thank you for sharing your interesting accounts of what took place in Kyiv! I am not trying to minimize Holodomor. It's all tragic and horrible and lamentable. I'm just trying to understand all of this, and I'm very thankful for you sharing the personal experiences of you family. It helps me to piece together a picture of what may have taken place. I have spoken to many Ukrainians about these subjects and most of them would say the same as you've said.
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« Reply #103 on: June 21, 2009, 10:39:04 PM »

Now, I am not writing all this to say that Jews were not harmed at all by the Nazis. Of course they were! And of course, most definitely, many of them were captured, humiliated, tortured, massacred by the Nazis.

But so were many non-Jews.

And yet, the mere fact that there were many, many, many, MANY non-Jewish people who were massacred by the Nazis in the lands that the German Army occupied in te 1940-s, is seldom, if ever, even mentioned.

Heorhij, perhaps you have not come across accounts of the many other groups of people whom the Nazis targeted, but I can assure you that they are written about and remembered.  At the Holocaust Museum in D.C. they are certainly not forgotten or pushed under the rug. Here is an overview page from that website on that subject http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005149  

I am very aware of the early years of the regime's "removal" of other humans with the programs to eliminate the chronically ill and people with disabilities including Down Syndrome, such as our youngest son has.  They were called "Life unworthy of life" and "useless eaters".  

Artists and intellectuals who did not go along with the party line were arrested and dealt with harshly.  

German people who disagreed with the Nazi political programs were also arrested, imprisoned and often killed.  Have you ever heard of "The White Rose"?  They were a group of students and instructors who printed pamphlets against the Nazis.  They were eventually caught and several were executed with a guillotine.
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/whiterose.html

No one can read all the books and stories about something so immense, maybe, but those whom an evil power worked to remove are not forgotten or ignored.

Quote
And the fact that more Ukrainian peasants were killed by the artificial starvation of 1932-33 organized by Lazar Kaganovich and Henrich Yagoda (Yehuda) than Jews killed during the "Holocaust," remains a TABOO. It can NEVER be mentioned, wrote about, appreciated, wept about.

Yet I know of it and I am not Ukrainian.  Other people know and the history sometimes takes time to become known. But that's one of the good things about the Internet.  While there's a lot of spam and junk out there, it's also a good way for people who otherwise might never learn of a thing because it happened on the other side of the world, or to people of a different culture or because it was in books that they would never have come to their town.  It's a way to share knowledge and truth along with ads and flashy pictures.

Some of my generations in the past relatives were starved and driven from their homes to walk the "Trail of Tears" out to Oklahoma as members of the Cherokee.  For a long time only the tribe and a few others really remembered it. But it is not forgotten and it was part of a PBS series a while back.  

People can learn, but they're not ignoring or denying that something happened if they just haven't heard of it.


Quote
This makes me suspect that in the eyes of the world, to a very large extent "directed" by Zionist Jews, my people, Ukrainians - as well as many other peoples - are LESS important, less valuable, less HUMAN than the "God's chosen people."

Maybe some of them were shaped by centuries of being treated as less valuable, less Human, then Christians.  I don't know.  But if you kick anyone long enough, it might be hard for them to react with compassion or charity.

Quote
But to Northen Americans, none of this matters...

Heorhij, it does matter.  The Holodomor was a horrific, evil work that killed millions and millions. But to lump all Northern Americans like this seems a bit unfair.  When you were living back in your home country, did you know about the Cherokee or the mistreatment of the Australian native peoples or the burakumin in Japan?  Human Beings have limits in time, energy, mental ability and resources.  

This is important to you and I apologize for anything that I have written that might upset you.  

Ebor
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« Reply #104 on: June 21, 2009, 10:46:09 PM »


Various anti-semites would have yo believe Lenin was a Jew. Another fabrication. His maternal Grandfather may have been Jewish ( no one is totally sure). He and his parents were Baptised Christians.

The only actual Jew at the top of the leadership was Trotsky who was himself persecuted by Stalin, thrown out of the country and eventally murdered by an agent of Stalin in Mexico.

 

Marc, please try to be objective...

I am not an anti-Semite at all. Let me just tell you that several of my real good lifelong friends are Jewish and several friends of my parents, whom I treated and continue to treat literally as my "uncles" and "aunts," were/are Jewish.

But to say what you said above is an untruth. In 1917-1939, Jews absolutely dominated in all governmental offices of the former USSR. Here is but a short list of names:

Zinoviev (Apfelbaum) - the Chairman of the Komintern ("Communist International" - technically a higher position in the Communist hierarchy than Lenin's);

Kamenev (Rosenfeld) - the Chairman of the city of Moscow Communist Party organization, the Chairman of the VSNKh (the office that supervised all industry), a Politburo member;

Yaroslavsky (Gubelman) - the head of the Leage of Militant Atheists (the organization that supervised the demise of churches, the killings of priests, etc.);

Yagoda (Yehuda) - the chief of the NKVD (People's Comissariat of Internal Affairs, actually the secret police responsible of murder of millions of innocent people, unbelievable cruelties, torture, organizing executions of millions of peasants by artificial famine, etc.);

Kaganovich - a powerful Politburo member who held many positions, including the People's Comissar of Heavy Industry, the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, the Minister of Education of the USSR (among others) (actually an obedient secretary and lackey of Stalin who was notorious for his cruelty);

Frinovsky, Berman, and several others whose last names I do not recall right now, but who all had Jewish names - the chief executive officers of GULAG;

Litvinov (Vallach) - a Lithuanian Jew who had trouble speaking grammatical Russian, served as the People's Comissar of Foreign Affairs...

... and hundreds of others.

I will dig some hard numbers for you if you like.

Now. I am not suppporting the claims of the OP and I am not really even interested in tracing Jewish traits in Catholicism or elewhere. But I can't stand it when facts are profoundly distorted for some sort of PC.


The claim made previously was that Lenin was a Jew..that is not true. It is an example of the lengths some will go to in making history fit their own idea's.

The claim that the Russian Revolution was some sore of Jewish conspiracy is a lie. Most groups within Russia that felt like they were oppressed  and down trodden sided with the Revolution. But to say the Revolution was somehow Jewish in nature is deeply anti-semitic. It ignores the central fact of the Russian Revolution that it was hijacked by Joseph Stalin who was the main perpetrator of  the great terror foisted upon the Church and many other aspects of Russian Life.

Stalin was  baptised an Orthodox Christian. To say then that his crimes were Orthodox Christian crimes is as silly as saying the Jews were responsible for it. Jews were poor and outcast. The poor and outcast sided with the Revolution. However, Stalin purged nearly all of the original Bolsheviks not the least of which was Leon Trotsky, a Jew. Jews quickly returned to their outcast status. You may recall the plight of Russian Jewry and their decades long struggle to leave Russia.. They were surely not in charge of anything and were desperate to leave. They were denied that most basic elements of their faith ( to meet, to get a Jewish education, etc etc) just as much as the Orthodox Christians and more.  The Gulags were full of Jewish
 prisoners.

So, the one actual leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was done away with. The Terror was begun and led by a Baptised Orthodox Christian. Jews suffered particular discrimination up until the day the Soviet Union ended. To say the Revolution was the work of "Jews" is a very old anti-semetic saw.  
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« Reply #105 on: June 22, 2009, 03:19:00 AM »

One wonders why the Russian gentiles so easily allowed the soviets to take over? It seems to be a constant circular power struggle in these slavic lands. Jews are oppressed, but eventually manage to rise to the top again. Then the gentiles lash out at the Jews in resentment, killing many. Then the cycle repeats itself-seemingly endlessly. One would think there'd be a less violent, more balanced way of distributing the power, etc.

I was recently thinking about the massacre which took place in 1941, at Babi Yar, in Kiev. Have been there and gazed pensively into the ravine.  Over 33,000 Jews were ruthlessly murdered in two days, together with some Roma, Orthodox priests, Ukrainian nationalists etc. But it seems the Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis at Babi Yar. And many Ukrainians informed on the Jews too. This seems so hard for me to comprehend. How and why would people inform on their fellow countrymen-regardless of religion?  Huh Also, the chief synagogue in Kiev was turned into a puppet theatre during the Soviet Regime.

I struggle to understand this complex situation...

Rosehip, I understand your struggle...

My own great-grandmother, who was half-Russian (from a very aristocratic, noble family) and half-Ukrainian, and a widow of a guy who was 100% Greek, survived the German occupation of Kyiv, living in her room in the "communal" apartment on the Saksagans'koho Street, just a few blocks from the Tolstoy Square and the Shevchenko Boulevard downtown. Her daughter (my maternal grandmother) and her granddaugher (my mother, who was only 11 when the war began) - escaped to the Omsk oblast, where my maternal grandma had some relatives, -  but my great-grandmother most stubbornly refused to leave Kyiv, saying that the Germans will not last long anyway.

A number of her neighbors in that "communal apartment" were Jews. When the Germans announced that all Jews of Kyiv must take all their belongings and move to the designated places to be "evacuated," these residents of my great-grandma's apartment did exactly what was asked of them to do. No one had any doubts that they would be transported to some place where the life would be better for them (and, as some "Aryans" sarcastically said, they would not any longer mess with their neighbours' lives). Many older Jews recalled how Germans who occupied Kyiv in 1918 were kind to them and how the Germans were generally a "civilized, kind, intelligent people." There were rumors that the Jews would be transported to Germany (""c'mon, everybody knows that these Germans just love Jews!"), or to some exotic land (Madagascar?), etc.

I later read in some non-Soviet sources that, actually, some number of Jews who were Kyiv residents were, in fact, made, forced, to board trains and leave Kyiv, no one knows to what destination.

In the Babyn Yar (Russ. Babiy Yar), indeed, the Germans organized some sort of a camp for various prisoners, and a lot of them were shot there with the help of machine guns. And indeed, just like you wrote, those who were executed included some members of the Ukrainian nationalist underground (the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya," UPA), as well as some Communists captured by the German Army, and also, probably, common criminals, or psychiatric patients whom the Nazis regarded as not worth living). To what extent the testimonies that "all Jews were driven to the Babyn Yar and shot there" are true - I really do not know, because I have read the most conflicting, the most outrageously contradicting testimonies on this issue.

What I have heard from my great-grandma, however, was that neither she nor anyone she knew in Kyiv "collaborated" with the Nazis in any way, "telling" them on Jews. In the late 1944, when Kyiv was re-captured by the Soviet Army, some of her former Jewish - VERY Jewish - neighbors who disappeared in 1941 - Sara Mikhailovna Peisakhovich, Sofia Mikhailovna (actually Moiseevna) Bogatyrskaya, and a few others - suddenly re-appeared, alive and well, and occupied their rooms in her Saksagans'koho Street "communal" apartment.

Now, I am not writing all this to say that Jews were not harmed at all by the Nazis. Of course they were! And of course, most definitely, many of them were captured, humiliated, tortured, massacred by the Nazis.

But so were many non-Jews.

And yet, the mere fact that there were many, many, many, MANY non-Jewish people who were massacred by the Nazis in the lands that the German Army occupied in te 1940-s, is seldom, if ever, even mentioned.

And the fact that more Ukrainian peasants were killed by the artificial starvation of 1932-33 organized by Lazar Kaganovich and Henrich Yagoda (Yehuda) than Jews killed during the "Holocaust," remains a TABOO. It can NEVER be mentioned, wrote about, appreciated, wept about.

This makes me suspect that in the eyes of the world, to a very large extent "directed" by Zionist Jews, my people, Ukrainians - as well as many other peoples - are LESS important, less valuable, less HUMAN than the "God's chosen people."

But to Northen Americans, none of this matters...
You are overgeneralising. It does matter to some of us here. We need to know more, but it is not easy to filter through all of what has been written and know what really happened? I also heard from more than one source that the German soldiers were generally regarded as civilized. But then I read about the number of innocent civilians that the Germans gunned down in the back of city hall in retaliation for the death of one soldier. I read about how the allies set up a fair and just trial at Nuremberg. But were the Germans on trial at Nuremburg tortured into confessing things which did not occur? How many people were actually gassed alive and how many were dead bodies which were killed by typhus? How much of what was done by the Ustase in Croatia was real and what part has been exaggerated? As you know, both Serbian Orthodox and Jews died in the Jasenovac concentration camp, but what are the true statistics of the numbers killed? How many Germans were killed and how many innocent German women were horribly treated and abused by the allied victors? How does one get the true picture and the true statistics of what really happened? I would appreciate it if anyone can point to an accurate and fair history of what really happened
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« Reply #106 on: June 22, 2009, 12:06:07 PM »

But so were many non-Jews.

And yet, the mere fact that there were many, many, many, MANY non-Jewish people who were massacred by the Nazis in the lands that the German Army occupied in te 1940-s, is seldom, if ever, even mentioned.


I think that is an easy to understand yet mistaken idea. Jews were singled out early on as the center piece of Nazi propaganda and blamed for every ill the Gemans suffered since WW One up to and including why that war was lost.

They were singled out and ghettoized, they lost all legal rights as citizens and were brutalized. They were eventually herded into either slave camps or death factories the likes of which society has never seen before. It was the Nazi's that put the Jew's in the center ring, not the Jews themselves.

That is not to diminish the fact that millions lost their lives in the fighting of WW Two and that there were other groups, most noteably the Gypsies and Russian Prisoners of war who suffered the same or a similar fate.  But the planned, deliberate and systematic genocide of the Jewish People by the Nazi's stands alone and apart as a horror among many other horrors and crimes committed by the Germans.
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« Reply #107 on: June 22, 2009, 01:10:20 PM »


Various anti-semites would have yo believe Lenin was a Jew. Another fabrication. His maternal Grandfather may have been Jewish ( no one is totally sure). He and his parents were Baptised Christians.

The only actual Jew at the top of the leadership was Trotsky who was himself persecuted by Stalin, thrown out of the country and eventally murdered by an agent of Stalin in Mexico.

 

Marc, please try to be objective...

I am not an anti-Semite at all. Let me just tell you that several of my real good lifelong friends are Jewish and several friends of my parents, whom I treated and continue to treat literally as my "uncles" and "aunts," were/are Jewish.

But to say what you said above is an untruth. In 1917-1939, Jews absolutely dominated in all governmental offices of the former USSR. Here is but a short list of names:

Zinoviev (Apfelbaum) - the Chairman of the Komintern ("Communist International" - technically a higher position in the Communist hierarchy than Lenin's);

Kamenev (Rosenfeld) - the Chairman of the city of Moscow Communist Party organization, the Chairman of the VSNKh (the office that supervised all industry), a Politburo member;

Yaroslavsky (Gubelman) - the head of the Leage of Militant Atheists (the organization that supervised the demise of churches, the killings of priests, etc.);

Yagoda (Yehuda) - the chief of the NKVD (People's Comissariat of Internal Affairs, actually the secret police responsible of murder of millions of innocent people, unbelievable cruelties, torture, organizing executions of millions of peasants by artificial famine, etc.);

Kaganovich - a powerful Politburo member who held many positions, including the People's Comissar of Heavy Industry, the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, the Minister of Education of the USSR (among others) (actually an obedient secretary and lackey of Stalin who was notorious for his cruelty);

Frinovsky, Berman, and several others whose last names I do not recall right now, but who all had Jewish names - the chief executive officers of GULAG;

Litvinov (Vallach) - a Lithuanian Jew who had trouble speaking grammatical Russian, served as the People's Comissar of Foreign Affairs...

... and hundreds of others.

I will dig some hard numbers for you if you like.

Now. I am not suppporting the claims of the OP and I am not really even interested in tracing Jewish traits in Catholicism or elewhere. But I can't stand it when facts are profoundly distorted for some sort of PC.


The claim made previously was that Lenin was a Jew..that is not true. It is an example of the lengths some will go to in making history fit their own idea's.

The claim that the Russian Revolution was some sore of Jewish conspiracy is a lie. Most groups within Russia that felt like they were oppressed  and down trodden sided with the Revolution. But to say the Revolution was somehow Jewish in nature is deeply anti-semitic. It ignores the central fact of the Russian Revolution that it was hijacked by Joseph Stalin who was the main perpetrator of  the great terror foisted upon the Church and many other aspects of Russian Life.

Stalin was  baptised an Orthodox Christian. To say then that his crimes were Orthodox Christian crimes is as silly as saying the Jews were responsible for it. Jews were poor and outcast. The poor and outcast sided with the Revolution. However, Stalin purged nearly all of the original Bolsheviks not the least of which was Leon Trotsky, a Jew. Jews quickly returned to their outcast status. You may recall the plight of Russian Jewry and their decades long struggle to leave Russia.. They were surely not in charge of anything and were desperate to leave. They were denied that most basic elements of their faith ( to meet, to get a Jewish education, etc etc) just as much as the Orthodox Christians and more.  The Gulags were full of Jewish
 prisoners.

So, the one actual leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was done away with. The Terror was begun and led by a Baptised Orthodox Christian. Jews suffered particular discrimination up until the day the Soviet Union ended. To say the Revolution was the work of "Jews" is a very old anti-semetic saw.  

Now your blaming Orthodox Christians for the invention of Judeo-Bolshevic Communism? Geez.


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« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2009, 01:12:51 PM »

sdcheung: Ataturk was a jew?HuhHuh

And here, silly me, all this time I thought he was a Turkish Muslim! With a name like "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk".

(Smacking forehead)

He was a Turkish speaking Albanian Muslim born in Greece.

He was a Doenme, a Crypto-Jew
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« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2009, 01:58:49 PM »


Various anti-semites would have yo believe Lenin was a Jew. Another fabrication. His maternal Grandfather may have been Jewish ( no one is totally sure). He and his parents were Baptised Christians.

The only actual Jew at the top of the leadership was Trotsky who was himself persecuted by Stalin, thrown out of the country and eventally murdered by an agent of Stalin in Mexico.

 

Marc, please try to be objective...

I am not an anti-Semite at all. Let me just tell you that several of my real good lifelong friends are Jewish and several friends of my parents, whom I treated and continue to treat literally as my "uncles" and "aunts," were/are Jewish.

But to say what you said above is an untruth. In 1917-1939, Jews absolutely dominated in all governmental offices of the former USSR. Here is but a short list of names:

Zinoviev (Apfelbaum) - the Chairman of the Komintern ("Communist International" - technically a higher position in the Communist hierarchy than Lenin's);

Kamenev (Rosenfeld) - the Chairman of the city of Moscow Communist Party organization, the Chairman of the VSNKh (the office that supervised all industry), a Politburo member;

Yaroslavsky (Gubelman) - the head of the Leage of Militant Atheists (the organization that supervised the demise of churches, the killings of priests, etc.);

Yagoda (Yehuda) - the chief of the NKVD (People's Comissariat of Internal Affairs, actually the secret police responsible of murder of millions of innocent people, unbelievable cruelties, torture, organizing executions of millions of peasants by artificial famine, etc.);

Kaganovich - a powerful Politburo member who held many positions, including the People's Comissar of Heavy Industry, the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, the Minister of Education of the USSR (among others) (actually an obedient secretary and lackey of Stalin who was notorious for his cruelty);

Frinovsky, Berman, and several others whose last names I do not recall right now, but who all had Jewish names - the chief executive officers of GULAG;

Litvinov (Vallach) - a Lithuanian Jew who had trouble speaking grammatical Russian, served as the People's Comissar of Foreign Affairs...

... and hundreds of others.

I will dig some hard numbers for you if you like.

Now. I am not suppporting the claims of the OP and I am not really even interested in tracing Jewish traits in Catholicism or elewhere. But I can't stand it when facts are profoundly distorted for some sort of PC.


The claim made previously was that Lenin was a Jew..that is not true. It is an example of the lengths some will go to in making history fit their own idea's.

The claim that the Russian Revolution was some sore of Jewish conspiracy is a lie. Most groups within Russia that felt like they were oppressed  and down trodden sided with the Revolution. But to say the Revolution was somehow Jewish in nature is deeply anti-semitic. It ignores the central fact of the Russian Revolution that it was hijacked by Joseph Stalin who was the main perpetrator of  the great terror foisted upon the Church and many other aspects of Russian Life.

Stalin was  baptised an Orthodox Christian. To say then that his crimes were Orthodox Christian crimes is as silly as saying the Jews were responsible for it. Jews were poor and outcast. The poor and outcast sided with the Revolution. However, Stalin purged nearly all of the original Bolsheviks not the least of which was Leon Trotsky, a Jew. Jews quickly returned to their outcast status. You may recall the plight of Russian Jewry and their decades long struggle to leave Russia.. They were surely not in charge of anything and were desperate to leave. They were denied that most basic elements of their faith ( to meet, to get a Jewish education, etc etc) just as much as the Orthodox Christians and more.  The Gulags were full of Jewish
 prisoners.

So, the one actual leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was done away with. The Terror was begun and led by a Baptised Orthodox Christian. Jews suffered particular discrimination up until the day the Soviet Union ended. To say the Revolution was the work of "Jews" is a very old anti-semetic saw.  

Now your blaming Orthodox Christians for the invention of Judeo-Bolshevic Communism? Geez.




Read for content..

The Russian Revolution was led by Atheists. Most of whom were Baptised as Orthodox Christians. The overwhelming majority of people who supported the Revolution were Russians, likewise Baptised. Many Jew's as well supported the Revolution. It is ridiculous to claim the Revolution was part of some sort of Jewish deal just as much as it would be to say it was connected to the fact that most of it's leaders and supporters were at one time Orthodox Christians.

The only top leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was Leon Trotsky. He was purged and then murdered. The Soviet Union was a Totalitarian dictatorship from Stalin on. None of those titular leaders was Jewish. Jews were in fact persecuted and discriminated against and eventually emigrate en mass.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 02:00:49 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2009, 03:26:04 PM »

The claim that the Russian Revolution was some sore of Jewish conspiracy is a lie. Most groups within Russia that felt like they were oppressed  and down trodden sided with the Revolution. But to say the Revolution was somehow Jewish in nature is deeply anti-semitic. It ignores the central fact of the Russian Revolution that it was hijacked by Joseph Stalin who was the main perpetrator of  the great terror foisted upon the Church and many other aspects of Russian Life.

Stalin was  baptised an Orthodox Christian. To say then that his crimes were Orthodox Christian crimes is as silly as saying the Jews were responsible for it. Jews were poor and outcast. The poor and outcast sided with the Revolution. However, Stalin purged nearly all of the original Bolsheviks not the least of which was Leon Trotsky, a Jew. Jews quickly returned to their outcast status. You may recall the plight of Russian Jewry and their decades long struggle to leave Russia.. They were surely not in charge of anything and were desperate to leave. They were denied that most basic elements of their faith ( to meet, to get a Jewish education, etc etc) just as much as the Orthodox Christians and more.  The Gulags were full of Jewish
 prisoners.

So, the one actual leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was done away with. The Terror was begun and led by a Baptised Orthodox Christian. Jews suffered particular discrimination up until the day the Soviet Union ended. To say the Revolution was the work of "Jews" is a very old anti-semetic saw.   

Now your blaming Orthodox Christians for the invention of Judeo-Bolshevic Communism? Geez.




Read for content..

The Russian Revolution was led by Atheists. Most of whom were Baptised as Orthodox Christians. The overwhelming majority of people who supported the Revolution were Russians, likewise Baptised. Many Jew's as well supported the Revolution. It is ridiculous to claim the Revolution was part of some sort of Jewish deal just as much as it would be to say it was connected to the fact that most of it's leaders and supporters were at one time Orthodox Christians.

The only top leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was Leon Trotsky. He was purged and then murdered. The Soviet Union was a Totalitarian dictatorship from Stalin on. None of those titular leaders was Jewish. Jews were in fact persecuted and discriminated against and eventually emigrate en mass.
But weren’t the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.



Fixed quote tag issue...  Nothing more...  -PtA
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« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2009, 04:55:57 PM »

The claim that the Russian Revolution was some sore of Jewish conspiracy is a lie. Most groups within Russia that felt like they were oppressed  and down trodden sided with the Revolution. But to say the Revolution was somehow Jewish in nature is deeply anti-semitic. It ignores the central fact of the Russian Revolution that it was hijacked by Joseph Stalin who was the main perpetrator of the great terror foisted upon the Church and many other aspects of Russian Life.

Stalin was baptised an Orthodox Christian. To say then that his crimes were Orthodox Christian crimes is as silly as saying the Jews were responsible for it. Jews were poor and outcast. The poor and outcast sided with the Revolution. However, Stalin purged nearly all of the original Bolsheviks not the least of which was Leon Trotsky, a Jew. Jews quickly returned to their outcast status. You may recall the plight of Russian Jewry and their decades long struggle to leave Russia.. They were surely not in charge of anything and were desperate to leave. They were denied that most basic elements of their faith ( to meet, to get a Jewish education, etc etc) just as much as the Orthodox Christians and more. The Gulags were full of Jewish
 prisoners.


Now your blaming Orthodox Christians for the invention of Judeo-Bolshevic Communism? Geez.




Read for content..

The Russian Revolution was led by Atheists. Most of whom were Baptised as Orthodox Christians. The overwhelming majority of people who supported the Revolution were Russians, likewise Baptised. Many Jew's as well supported the Revolution. It is ridiculous to claim the Revolution was part of some sort of Jewish deal just as much as it would be to say it was connected to the fact that most of it's leaders and supporters were at one time Orthodox Christians.

The only top leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was Leon Trotsky. He was purged and then murdered. The Soviet Union was a Totalitarian dictatorship from Stalin on. None of those titular leaders was Jewish. Jews were in fact persecuted and discriminated against and eventually emigrate en mass.
But weren't the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.
[/quote]

Sure.. Oppressed minorities tended to side with the Revolution. And most of the leaders and henchman of Stalin who persecuted the Church were Baptised Orthodox. What's your point?

To draw into this some sort of International Jewish Conspiracy plot has no legs IMHO. Most of the Confederate Leaders  in our Civil War were Protestants... So what?

Was Engles Jewish? I don't know. People here think Lenin was Jewish.... and Obama too..and the Pope.
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« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2009, 05:33:42 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?
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« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2009, 07:09:28 PM »

In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

The need to feel "superior", little or no empathy for the situation of others and lack of love for those we perceive to be our enemies.  Sad
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« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2009, 07:49:26 PM »

In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

The need to feel "superior", little or no empathy for the situation of others and lack of love for those we perceive to be our enemies.  Sad

I know, Riddi. Cry Everyone thinks only of  himself-very few try to enter the world of the "other"... Cry
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« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2009, 08:25:19 PM »


But weren’t the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.



"Friedrich Engels was born on Nov. 28, 1820, in Barmen, Rhenish Prussia, a small industrial town in the Wupper valley. He was the oldest of the six children of Friedrich and Elisabeth Franziska Mauritia Engels. The senior Engels, a textile manufacturer, was a Christian Pietist and religious fanatic"


Emphasis added........... for emphasis

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404702008.html
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« Reply #116 on: June 22, 2009, 08:51:46 PM »


But weren’t the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.



"Friedrich Engels was born on Nov. 28, 1820, in Barmen, Rhenish Prussia, a small industrial town in the Wupper valley. He was the oldest of the six children of Friedrich and Elisabeth Franziska Mauritia Engels. The senior Engels, a textile manufacturer, was a Christian Pietist and religious fanatic"


Emphasis added........... for emphasis

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404702008.html
I think that you are right on this. I was reading the book: "Showdown in Jerusalem, A Digest"  by Gert Timmerman and it says on page 4:  "In 1844, Hess introduced Marx to the German Jew Friedrich Engels."
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« Reply #117 on: June 22, 2009, 09:52:18 PM »


But weren’t the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.



"Friedrich Engels was born on Nov. 28, 1820, in Barmen, Rhenish Prussia, a small industrial town in the Wupper valley. He was the oldest of the six children of Friedrich and Elisabeth Franziska Mauritia Engels. The senior Engels, a textile manufacturer, was a Christian Pietist and religious fanatic"


Emphasis added........... for emphasis

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404702008.html
I think that you are right on this. I was reading the book: "Showdown in Jerusalem, A Digest"  by Gert Timmerman and it says on page 4:  "In 1844, Hess introduced Marx to the German Jew Friedrich Engels."


Engels was German. Pietist-shmietist...

Marx was Jewish. Protestant-shmotestant...

Lenin was a mongrel with Jewish, Kalmyk and some other ancestors. Communist-shmommunist...

I don't care about this thread anymore, forgive me guys, keep being busy researching your interesting stuff. PC rules.
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« Reply #118 on: June 22, 2009, 09:55:40 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only opporessed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 
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« Reply #119 on: June 22, 2009, 10:16:57 PM »

Heorhij,

If anything in my reply to you last night felt like an attack or upset you, I apologize.

Ebor
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« Reply #120 on: June 22, 2009, 10:50:59 PM »

Heorhij,

I too ask your forgiveness! I was not even referring to you at all-I was thinking in a much more generalized sense altogether!!
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« Reply #121 on: June 22, 2009, 10:52:34 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only opporessed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 


Yeah I hate PC too.

Another evil invention by the jews, along with Socialism, Democracy and Judeo-Bolshevic Communism and Capitalism.
 We have had to deal with your racist posts before, and despite our past warnings you do not learn.

You're banned.

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« Reply #122 on: June 22, 2009, 11:41:15 PM »

 Huh

Democracy came from the ancient Greeks

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« Reply #123 on: June 23, 2009, 12:28:28 AM »


But weren’t the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.



"Friedrich Engels was born on Nov. 28, 1820, in Barmen, Rhenish Prussia, a small industrial town in the Wupper valley. He was the oldest of the six children of Friedrich and Elisabeth Franziska Mauritia Engels. The senior Engels, a textile manufacturer, was a Christian Pietist and religious fanatic"


Emphasis added........... for emphasis

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404702008.html
I think that you are right on this. I was reading the book: "Showdown in Jerusalem, A Digest"  by Gert Timmerman and it says on page 4:  "In 1844, Hess introduced Marx to the German Jew Friedrich Engels."


Engels was German. Pietist-shmietist...

Marx was Jewish. Protestant-shmotestant...

Lenin was a mongrel with Jewish, Kalmyk and some other ancestors. Communist-shmommunist...

I don't care about this thread anymore, forgive me guys, keep being busy researching your interesting stuff. PC rules.
If anything I said offended anyone, then I am sorry about it. It is not the same as when you are talking to someone face to face.  And of course, we are not pretending to know what really happened. I look at it as an opportunity to learn just a little. thanks.
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« Reply #124 on: June 23, 2009, 01:44:23 AM »

Heorhij,

I too ask your forgiveness! I was not even referring to you at all-I was thinking in a much more generalized sense altogether!!

Same goes for me!! Forgive me, if I have offended you!
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« Reply #125 on: June 23, 2009, 07:19:15 AM »

Dear Rosehip, Stanley, Ebor, Riddi,

No, no, you do not have to apologize; nothing you wrote offended me, really. I do very much appreciate your thoughts! I am not offended with what Marc wrote, either - I just see in what he wrote a mere repetition of a very mythologized and primitive "history" of this so-called "Communist revolution"; but that's so common here, in the USA.

When I wrote that I am not interested in this thread, I meant it. I think it went well beyond the scope of the observation (real or illusionary) shared with us in the original post. What exactly happened in the former Russian Empire in 1917 and how things developed in its re-incarnation, the USSR, is a different topic and I don't see how it can be seriously pursued here.

And of course, I never wanted this thread to become a venue for racist views or global conspiracy theories.

Dear folks, it is I who should apologize, not you. Please forgive me.
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« Reply #126 on: June 23, 2009, 07:24:59 AM »

^^ Nothing to forgive, Heorhij.
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« Reply #127 on: June 23, 2009, 12:33:59 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only oppressed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 

It sounds like to me that you have not been digesting the conversation properly if those are the points you have taken away from it.

Sometimes it is a good idea to back away from a hot button discussion like this and protect your heart, especially during a fast period. No shame in it at all. I should do the same.
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« Reply #128 on: June 23, 2009, 12:46:15 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only oppressed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 

It sounds like to me that you have not been digesting the conversation properly if those are the points you have taken away from it.

Sometimes it is a good idea to back away from a hot button discussion like this and protect your heart, especially during a fast period. No shame in it at all. I should do the same.

No Marc, believe me, I have digested a lot of PC nonsense about Jews being an oppressed minority in the former USSR and about them being the victims of the evil Communist revolution, for many, many years (19 to be precise) of my stay in the USA.

But I agree with what you are saying about the fast. Actually, I am not interested in discussing Jews with you even when the fast will be over.
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« Reply #129 on: June 23, 2009, 01:55:47 PM »

Dear NorthernPines

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

Thanks for the clarification!


Quote
It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution,

I think it's more accurate to say that there were secular Jews involved, but they certainly weren't the only ones. I'd rather not go into the politics of Russia or the Soviets but, I don't think it's fair to say Jews were the ONLY people involved, many Russians, and probably mostly Russians were responsible for the Revolution. The Russian Empire had become corrupt and brutal, not to mention complete in love with "the world"....St. Theophan wrote about the state of 'Holy Russia' a few times in his letters and he didn't seem to be all that impressed with it. (though it was never something he was over concerned about either)

But I'll concede, that yes, some secular Jews were involved. Of course, so were secular Russians, so I don't really see the point. Russians were responsible for brutal treatment of the Alaskan Natives (according to St. Herman)....every ethnic group has done some horrible things in history, Greeks, Serbians, Poles, Italians, Irish, Arabs...no one is clean, and all have blood on their hands as an ethnic group. And yet, as Scripture says, the children shall not pay for the sins of the father. So just because England was brutal and cruel to Ireland at some time in the past, doesn't mean I have ANY bad feelings against English people. I frankly do not care because we're all part of the single family of humanity and all are fallen.




Quote

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath. Will there anyone be judged for crimes against humanity? Will the soviet holocaust receive so much dissemination? Will antichristianity be condemned? Will survivors and other victims receive compensation, and retributive justice? Will the jews be forced to apologize and be closely monitored so that this massacre is never repeated? Will True Orthodox Christians become the "untouchables" and the slightest criticism towards them will be considered as antichristianity, racism, hate propaganda, intolerance and the like?

The only sense I can agree with you here on, is yes, I also feel as though we are a bit to sensitive when it comes to Israel. Any criticism against Israel is deemed "racist" and anti semitic....this is wrong, but that is the secular nation of Israel. Not "the Jews"...anymore than the "evil Empire" made Russians "evil"...many people grew up in the 40's and 50's being taught that Russians were evil and wanted to take over the world......now we know Russians are just like everyone else, including the Jews. They are just people trying to live the best they can and know how. One cannot blame the Jews for Communism anymore than one can blame the Greeks for the cruelty of the Byzantine Empire. Yes, both are bad things, atheistic domination, and religious Empires run amok, but the people involved are long dead. I cannot, as a Christian hold people living today responsible for something that happened 100 yrs ago, or 1000 yrs ago.

It's time for us to realize that we are all one race, the human race......and tribal and religious warfare must end.





Quote
Will the True Russian Orthodox Christians have so much power as to boss other religions round, and force them to remove what they don't like labeling it as antichristianity? ........

Well, Russian Orthodox Christians did get to boss everyone around for nearly 1000 years. And to me that wasn't right either. Yet I don't hold the Russian people responsible for some of the more cruel Tsars that ruled Russia at various times. I don't hold Greeks responsible collectively as a  "people" for Iconoclasm, because an equal amount of Greeks were Iconodules. Do you see that people are people; good ones and bad ones, across all ethnic identities? What makes a person bad is not their ethnic identity but they way they LIVE as individuals. What makes nations bad is they way they act collectively.....Nazi Germany was bad because of the way it acted, not because of the fact that they were "Germans". What makes Israel the nation "bad" at times is not the fact that they are Jews, but the fact that the government wants power. But that's not the people. The people, from what I've been told and heard, on the ground, can still get along, until those in power butt in and take control. There are a select few people of ALL ethnicitiesthat desire power above all else, but it doesn't make them all bad. Even those that use religion (and I consider "devout" atheism like Stalin's a religion) as an excuse to control people, like Stalin are bad not because of the religion per se (I know of atheists who wouldn't hurt a fly) but because they want power.

Have you ever seen or read Lord of the Rings? IMO it totally gets this issue right. If you've never seen the movies, or if you've never thought of the underlying Christian themes, I suggest you read about them, then watch the movies again.


I hope and pray you can see that people are just people, whether Jews, Muslim's Arabs, Greeks, Russians, Christians, Hindus whatever......it makes no difference, Christ died for them all, including you and me.

In Peace,

NP





You see, Jews are an easy scapegoat for the Ultradox in terms of the Revolution. Without this sort of superstitious- conspiratorial excuse, they would have to face up to some unpleasant facts about the Czarist Regime.

Personally, I mourn the loss the Nicholas and his family and think it was a crime against Christianity. However, conditions in Russia were ripe for Revolution. For example, the Czarist Army led troops to the front in World War One...  Unarmed.. Not poorly armed. Not poorly trained or with out-dated equipment... they had no weapons at all.
Russian troops would grabe sticks and shovels and throw stones as they were forced to charge German machine guns. The Russian Revolution was triggered by troops leaving the front by the tens of thousands, disgruntled and foot loose. They often had killed their officers.

The list of grievances by the Russian people only starts there. It is no big wonder that there was a Revolution. Lenin was in fact taken by surprise. He had said just months earlier that he didn't think there would be a Revolution in Russia during his lifetime. He thought there would be one in Germany first which was an advanced industrial state.

The Russian Revolution was not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. The Terror that came later against the Church and many others was likewise not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. Anyone who believes that should get to the Library ASAP.

Marc   
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« Reply #130 on: June 23, 2009, 01:58:54 PM »

You see, Jews are an easy scapegoat for the Ultradox in terms of the Revolution. Without this sort of superstitious- conspiratorial excuse, they would have to face up to some unpleasant facts about the Czarist Regime.

Personally, I mourn the loss the Nicholas and his family and think it was a crime against Christianity. However, conditions in Russia were ripe for Revolution. For example, the Czarist Army led troops to the front in World War One...  Unarmed.. Not poorly armed. Not poorly trained or without dated equipment... they had no weapons at all.
Russian troops would grabe sticks and shovels and throw stones as they were forced to charge German machine guns. The Russian Revolution was triggered by troops leaving the front by the tens of thousands, disgruntled and foot loose. They often had killed their officers.

The list of grievances by the Russian people only starts there. It is no big wonder that there was a Revolution. Lenin was in fact taken by surprise. He had said just months earlier that he didn't think there would be a Revolution in Russia during his lifetime. He thought there would be one in Germany first which was an advanced industrial state.

The Russian Revolution was not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. The Terror that came later against the Church and many others was likewise not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. Anyone who believes that should get to the Library ASAP.

Marc   
But what about Karl Marx?
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« Reply #131 on: June 23, 2009, 02:02:33 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only oppressed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 

It sounds like to me that you have not been digesting the conversation properly if those are the points you have taken away from it.

Sometimes it is a good idea to back away from a hot button discussion like this and protect your heart, especially during a fast period. No shame in it at all. I should do the same.

No Marc, believe me, I have digested a lot of PC nonsense about Jews being an oppressed minority in the former USSR and about them being the victims of the evil Communist revolution, for many, many years (19 to be precise) of my stay in the USA.

But I agree with what you are saying about the fast. Actually, I am not interested in discussing Jews with you even when the fast will be over.

Okay. first of all you have badly  miss represented my postions. If you care to continue I can as well.

Secondly, there have been some very harsh anti-semitic remarks in this and related threads. I would be careful which dogs you lay down with... If standing up to patently false statements, bigotry and ignorance is "Political Correctness"
then so be it.
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« Reply #132 on: June 23, 2009, 02:04:19 PM »

You see, Jews are an easy scapegoat for the Ultradox in terms of the Revolution. Without this sort of superstitious- conspiratorial excuse, they would have to face up to some unpleasant facts about the Czarist Regime.

Personally, I mourn the loss the Nicholas and his family and think it was a crime against Christianity. However, conditions in Russia were ripe for Revolution. For example, the Czarist Army led troops to the front in World War One...  Unarmed.. Not poorly armed. Not poorly trained or without dated equipment... they had no weapons at all.
Russian troops would grabe sticks and shovels and throw stones as they were forced to charge German machine guns. The Russian Revolution was triggered by troops leaving the front by the tens of thousands, disgruntled and foot loose. They often had killed their officers.

The list of grievances by the Russian people only starts there. It is no big wonder that there was a Revolution. Lenin was in fact taken by surprise. He had said just months earlier that he didn't think there would be a Revolution in Russia during his lifetime. He thought there would be one in Germany first which was an advanced industrial state.

The Russian Revolution was not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. The Terror that came later against the Church and many others was likewise not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. Anyone who believes that should get to the Library ASAP.

Marc   
But what about Karl Marx?

He was a Jew and an Atheist. I don't think he was ever in Russia or ever predicted a Revolution there. In fact, a Socialist Revolution in a backward Feudal State goes against his core theories... What's your point?

What about Joseph Stalin?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 02:06:43 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #133 on: June 23, 2009, 02:28:58 PM »

You see, Jews are an easy scapegoat for the Ultradox in terms of the Revolution. Without this sort of superstitious- conspiratorial excuse, they would have to face up to some unpleasant facts about the Czarist Regime.

Personally, I mourn the loss the Nicholas and his family and think it was a crime against Christianity. However, conditions in Russia were ripe for Revolution. For example, the Czarist Army led troops to the front in World War One...  Unarmed.. Not poorly armed. Not poorly trained or without dated equipment... they had no weapons at all.
Russian troops would grabe sticks and shovels and throw stones as they were forced to charge German machine guns. The Russian Revolution was triggered by troops leaving the front by the tens of thousands, disgruntled and foot loose. They often had killed their officers.

The list of grievances by the Russian people only starts there. It is no big wonder that there was a Revolution. Lenin was in fact taken by surprise. He had said just months earlier that he didn't think there would be a Revolution in Russia during his lifetime. He thought there would be one in Germany first which was an advanced industrial state.

The Russian Revolution was not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. The Terror that came later against the Church and many others was likewise not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. Anyone who believes that should get to the Library ASAP.

Marc   
But what about Karl Marx?

He was a Jew and an Atheist. I don't think he was ever in Russia or ever predicted a Revolution there. In fact, a Socialist Revolution in a backward Feudal State goes against his core theories... What's your point?

What about Joseph Stalin?
Karl Marx was a major Communist theoretician. Stalin followed many of his ideas.
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« Reply #134 on: June 23, 2009, 02:53:49 PM »

You see, Jews are an easy scapegoat for the Ultradox in terms of the Revolution. Without this sort of superstitious- conspiratorial excuse, they would have to face up to some unpleasant facts about the Czarist Regime.

Personally, I mourn the loss the Nicholas and his family and think it was a crime against Christianity. However, conditions in Russia were ripe for Revolution. For example, the Czarist Army led troops to the front in World War One...  Unarmed.. Not poorly armed. Not poorly trained or without dated equipment... they had no weapons at all.
Russian troops would grab sticks and shovels and throw stones as they were forced to charge German machine guns. The Russian Revolution was triggered by troops leaving the front by the tens of thousands, disgruntled and foot loose. They often had killed their officers.

The list of grievances by the Russian people only starts there. It is no big wonder that there was a Revolution. Lenin was in fact taken by surprise. He had said just months earlier that he didn't think there would be a Revolution in Russia during his lifetime. He thought there would be one in Germany first which was an advanced industrial state.

The Russian Revolution was not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. The Terror that came later against the Church and many others was likewise not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. Anyone who believes that should get to the Library ASAP.

Marc   
But what about Karl Marx?

He was a Jew and an Atheist. I don't think he was ever in Russia or ever predicted a Revolution there. In fact, a Socialist Revolution in a backward Feudal State goes against his core theories... What's your point?

What about Joseph Stalin?
Karl Marx was a major Communist theoretician. Stalin followed many of his ideas.

Hegel was a major philosopher and a Christian. Marx borrowed many of his ideas from Hegel. What's you point?

Stalin certainly didn't follow Marx's idea's very closely. Marx developed what he termed "Scientific Socialism". It followed a set pattern of development from Pastoral Life, to Feudalism to Capitalism to Socialism to eventually "Communism". Russia was still very much a Feudal Society. By the most basic tenants of Marx, Russia was not a candidate for a Socialist much less a Communist Revolution. Stalin had to brutally force industrialization to spackle over this gaping flaw. It was not at all what Marx forsaw or predicted and I bet would even advise.

The most brutal aspects of the Russian Revolution were carried out by Stalin who was Baptised Orthodox. Why would anyone blame Judaism for Marx and not Orthodoxy for Stalin?..Seems like a convenient double standard to me. 
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