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Author Topic: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH  (Read 14516 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2009, 08:55:10 PM »

Dear Ebor,

I witnessed all this first hand.

The solemn high christmass mass with the 7 ministres giving the blessing jewish style. One time I saw that ritual in a Parrish of the Franciscan Order.

Masses where the jewish anthem is sung, accompanied by guitar and bongos. Mostly I saw that in a parrish of the Augustinian Recolletto Order.

I wouldn't mention it if it was just an urban legend, or hear and say.

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.

Not because something is not happening in your community, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your church (Roman Catholic Church) at all.




Sorry , bad news for you. Many elements of the Divine Liturgy have their source in the rituals done in the Synagogue. The Apostles and earliest disciples would attend Synagogue on Saturday and Church on Sunday. The Ethos of Synagogue Worship and Eastern Liturgies are alike. Anyone attending both in a row would certainly notice.

For one example when we take in procession the Holy Scriptures at Sat. Vigil, it is of the same type as the procession of the Torah in Synagogue. There is a book that outlines all of the similarities. I will try to find it.

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« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2009, 09:35:01 PM »

Dear Ebor,

I witnessed all this first hand.

The solemn high christmass mass with the 7 ministres giving the blessing jewish style. One time I saw that ritual in a Parrish of the Franciscan Order.

Masses where the jewish anthem is sung, accompanied by guitar and bongos. Mostly I saw that in a parrish of the Augustinian Recolletto Order.

I wouldn't mention it if it was just an urban legend, or hear and say.

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.

Not because something is not happening in your community, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your church (Roman Catholic Church) at all.




Sorry , bad news for you. Many elements of the Divine Liturgy have their source in the rituals done in the Synagogue. The Apostles and earliest disciples would attend Synagogue on Saturday and Church on Sunday. The Ethos of Synagogue Worship and Eastern Liturgies are alike. Anyone attending both in a row would certainly notice.

For one example when we take in procession the Holy Scriptures at Sat. Vigil, it is of the same type as the procession of the Torah in Synagogue. There is a book that outlines all of the similarities. I will try to find it.



"Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity with the Temple, the Synagogue and the Early Church"
by Benjamin D. Williams, H. Anstall?
http://books.google.com/books?id=1nm4AAAACAAJ&dq=Orthodox+Worship
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« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2009, 10:12:11 PM »

ialmisry bringing orthodox liturgics to this thread, could be off topic.

However, given that World Orthodoxy has united with the Roman Catholic Church, as witnessed by the mutual lifting of anathemas, the balamand agreement, and the joint services, such as this:

http://papalvisit.ecupatriarchate.org/press/articles.php?id=99

And the scheduled program of the Moscow Patriarchate to remove obstacles for a meeting between the Pope and the Patriarch of Moscow, which will include inter-religious services:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090213/120127238.html


It's possible to group the the Roman Catholic Church and World Orthodoxy as part of the same church, sister churches as they call each other, and discuss their traditions.


 

« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 10:16:20 PM by Pravoslav09 » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2009, 10:13:05 PM »

I'm flummoxed at the idea that singing a *song* is somehow being Jewish.  That's carrying the anti-Jewish feeling pretty far along, it seems to me.  
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« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2009, 10:49:12 PM »

It's really absurd to say that things are not allowed or that they are abuses, when they happen all the time in the Catholic Churches.

Why so? Most Christians sin on a regular basis. Does that make it "absurd" to claim that such acts are still sins? God knows I decry as much as anyone the liturgical abuses in many areas*, but things are better than they were a couple of decades ago, and even if they weren't, they are still wrong. I'm one layperson, and I can only do so much. Rather than obsess over liturgical abuses I see on Youtube, I prefer to work for improvement where I can make a difference---my parish.

*Dancing and menorahs on altars are quite rare, incidentally---in fact, I've never seen either.

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« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2009, 10:52:39 PM »

You all also seem to be ridding yourself of a lot of dead weight of chaff.  The cafeteria is not only closed, having failed inspection, the Board of Health has condemned it.  The bulldozers should be arriving shortly.

Agreed. A pruning---sometimes painful but necessary.

Thanks your your good wishes.
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« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2009, 11:06:25 PM »

Out of respect for my colleague, Heorhij, since I essentially started the tangent, the response to Pravoslav09's statement that the Orthodox and Catholic churches are now united has been made the subject of its own Orthodox-Catholic Discussion thread.

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches Now United?

I have left the post from Pravoslav09 that spurred the tangent here for its vague implication that any Jewish liturgical practices found in the Catholic Church can also be considered liturgical innovations of the Orthodox Church, as well, since the two churches are supposedly now one.
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« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2009, 11:14:50 PM »

This is off topic Peter The Aleut, we are not discussing inter communion or any other specifics of that sort.

I mentioned unity. Quote from the joint Declaration of the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarchate:

"..to prepare the great day of the re-establishment of full unity,.."

Maybe that unity is partial, but yet, it exists, and both parts are relentlessly committed to the ongoing work of establishment full unity. They mutually recognize each other as two parts of the same church.

On these grounds, we can now go back to the main subject of discussion, and discuss jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church, and the other part of the same church: "World Orthodoxy".
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« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2009, 11:16:49 PM »

This is off topic Peter The Aleut, we are not discussing inter communion or any other specifics of that sort.

I mentioned unity. Quote from the joint Declaration of the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarchate:

"..to prepare the great day of the re-establishment of full unity,.."

Maybe that unity is partial, but yet, it exists, and both parts are relentlessly committed to the ongoing work of establishment full unity. They mutually recognize each other as two parts of the same church.

On these grounds, we can now go back to the main subject of discussion, and discuss jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church, and the other part of the same church: "World Orthodoxy".
See Reply #51 above (immediately before the Reply #52 I quoted in this post). Wink
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« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2009, 11:22:24 PM »

Those implications that "jewish innovations may be present in Orthodox Liturgics" were brought by ialmisry not me Peter The Aleut.

All I did was setting the grounds for him, and others sharing that opinion, so they can participate in this thread.

Just for the record: I consider the Traditional Orthodox Litugics as a God's given gift, flowing directly from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word, and I don't share the views of ialmisry at all.

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« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2009, 11:29:22 PM »

Those implications were brought by ialmisry not me Peter The Aleut, and I set the grounds for him, and others sharing that opinion, to add comments to this thread.
Please forgive me if I seem to have been attacking you, but this really isn't about you.  This is about how I responded to your post and the tangent I started by doing so.

Now, can we return to the topic of this thread?
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« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2009, 11:39:51 PM »

Those implications that "jewish innovations may be present in Orthodox Liturgics" were brought by ialmisry not me Peter The Aleut.

All I did was setting the grounds for him, and others sharing that opinion, so they can participate in this thread.

Just for the record: I consider the Traditional Orthodox Litugics as a God's given gift, flowing directly from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word, and I don't share the views of ialmisry at all.
So you don't buy into the recognition that whatever liturgical practices the Orthodox Church has inherited from the Jews were revealed directly by the pre-incarnate Christ to Moses on Mount Sinai, revealed as being the pattern of worship in the heavenly realm?

The orientation of the Church toward a common direction?
The separation of the sanctuary from the nave as patterned after the separation of the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple?
The seven-branched candle stand sitting on most Orthodox Christian altars (at least those that I've seen)?
The liturgical burning of incense?
The whole structure of liturgical worship itself?

Do you think the God-man Jesus Christ revealed these practices directly to the apostles?  Or was it the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ who revealed these patterns first to Moses?
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« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2009, 12:11:15 AM »

Those implications that "jewish innovations may be present in Orthodox Liturgics" were brought by ialmisry not me Peter The Aleut.

All I did was setting the grounds for him, and others sharing that opinion, so they can participate in this thread.

Just for the record: I consider the Traditional Orthodox Litugics as a God's given gift, flowing directly from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word, and I don't share the views of ialmisry at all.



From the only Gentile Gospel:

Luke 2:21 On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived. 22 When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”b), 24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”

41 Every year His parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42 When He was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. 43 After the Feast was over, while His parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking He was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for Him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found Him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard Him was amazed at his understanding and His answers. 48 When His parents saw Him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have You treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for You.” 49 “Why were you searching for Me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in My Father’s house?”

4:14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised Him. 16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day He went into the synagogue, as was His custom.

19:45 Then he entered the temple area and began driving out those who were selling. 46 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be a house of prayer’c; but you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’” 47 Every day He was teaching at the temple.

22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”



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« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2009, 11:39:31 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The Church received Her liturgical practices from God. This divinely revealed correct way of worshiping and glorifying the One True God, was preserved by the people of God.

Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God, it can be said they are one of the first protestant splinter groups, in the history of the One True Religion where God is correctly worshipped and glorifyed.

Some traditions in the Church were revealed before the incarnation, and others were revealed during the incarnation, and afterwards, but they were all revealed by the One True God, and they were handed down to us by His servants, who preserved them, and not by His enemies, the jews who corrupted and distorted them.

David received divine revelation, the psaloms are the core of many Orthodox prayers and liturgical services.

The Orthodox Divine Liturgy, is a representation of the entire life of Christ our God upon earth, this is why it doesn't matter if the celebrating priest is not a very good preacher, the Divine Liturgy teaches us by itself.

Now concerning synagogues, there are very similar to Roman Catholic modern temples, and the modern modifications of ancient catholic temples of Novus Ordo. (Some Roman Catholic Temples preserve the Orthodox Architecture).

The synagogues  like modern Roman Catholic Temples are a large hall for prayer, where people sit in front of the officiating elders (rabbim, cohanim, priests, bishops, etc.). The halls of prayers are patterned like a concert hall, a theatre, or an auditorium, and the officiants perform their services in a sort of stage, where a bima or altar is placed. Some have separate buildings or rooms, for religious studies, meetings, and other religious activities.

A synagogue can be any building, it does not have a specific architecture, and it doesn't have to have a specific orientation, for jews,  it's just a place where they gather to pray. What's important for the jews is that there are 7 officiants to conduct a religious service, and a minimum of 10 assistants, for a prayer service.

What is important in the synagogues is the place of the Aron k'desh. Everyone has to face the Aron, so they put it in a place, in order to make everyone face the Kotel, in Jerusalem. The Aron K'desh is where the scrolls of the Torah (jewish version of the old testament) are kept.

The only division in a jewish synagogue is the m'kitzah, and it only divides men and women's seating areas.

There is a lamp that is always lit in the synagogues, it's a simple lamp. The full menorrah, (7 arms chandelier) if lit only in special services, and it's never placed on the Bima, it's placed somewhere else in the prayer hall. The full menorrah is used mostly at homes.

There is no use of incense in the synagogues. Where did you see it? Where did you get that idea from?

The jewish services, as well as the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo masses are just the reciting of prayers, some singing, silent prayers, the reading of the Scripture, and officiants face the congregation. There are specific rituals corresponding to each group, of course, but the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo services are very jewish in spirit.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear the shofar during some Roman Catholic services (joke), but hey, I've heard the electric guitar, the keyboard, bongos, guitar, cymbals, triangles, and other instruments during Roman Catholic masses, weddings, and other services, so I guess they have enough instruments, and they don't need the shofar.

The Roman Catholic service preserves the basic structure of the Orthodox services, in a very abridged way if you follow the Novus Ordo, but jewish services have a totally different structure.

From your comments, I think you haven't been to a jewish religious service, and you don't know.

Before we talk about something, it's important to know what we're talking about, we are not children anymore, and we can't just say things. Think before you talk, please.


« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 11:49:59 AM by Pravoslav09 » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2009, 12:04:37 PM »

Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God, it can be say they are one of the first protestant splinter groups, in the history of the One True Religion where God is correctly worshipped and glorifyed

Er..This is simply delusional and despite claims of the poster to be "Traditionally Orthodox" is a classic example of  Heterodox thinking.

Those Christian groups outside the Church often emphasize their own personal comfort in realtion to  the doctrines and practices of the Church. If something about the  Church or it's history or it's practices makes the individual person uncomfortable, then it is the the Church that must change. The Church conforms to the person.

The actual Orthodox Church  is more demanding. You are called upon to alter yourself to conform to the Church, not the other way around. Clearly these few posters are looking through their own personal anti-semetic lens and reconstructing the Church and things like it's history as they want it, rather than how it is. They are bigoted against Jews, so the history of the Church must change to make them feel at home.

We often think of Left and Right ( liberal and conservative postions) on a straight line. In my opinion these designations should be thought of as on a circle. The folks who put themselves on the very outer edge of "conservative" really have much more in common with those only an inch away from them on the most Liberal place on the circle. Each plays fast and loose with well established facts and their own opinions likes and dislikes trump reality.
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« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2009, 01:05:07 PM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The Church received Her liturgical practices from God. This divinely revealed correct way of worshiping and glorifying the One True God, was preserved by the people of God.

And the people of God before Christ were "The Jews", and all the first Christians were Jews.


Quote
Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God,


Funny, that's almost exactly how Judaism sees Christianity!


Quote

Some traditions in the Church were revealed before the incarnation, and others were revealed during the incarnation, and afterwards, but they were all revealed by the One True God, and they were handed down to us by His servants, who preserved them, and not by His enemies, the jews who corrupted and distorted them.

Yeah, and what about all the Jews who preserved them? Like Elijah, Moses, Ezekiel, The Theotokos, St. Paul, Oh yes...and all the Apostles, and Barnabas, probably the author of Hermas, and so and so forth. All Jews!




Quote
David received divine revelation, the psaloms are the core of many Orthodox prayers and liturgical services.

Was David a stenographer for God? God spoke THROUGH the prophets, but the human and thus Jewish aspect was in no wise downplayed. the whole concept of one God came from the Jews, and oh yes, most of our theology about the Messiah and the Trinity comes from the Jews as well. (or if you wish, God revealed these things THROUGH the Jews)


Quote
The Orthodox Divine Liturgy, is a representation of the entire life of Christ our God upon earth, this is why it doesn't matter if the celebrating priest is not a very good preacher, the Divine Liturgy teaches us by itself.

You know what, as nice as that sounds, and as many times I've tried to tell myself that is true, in reality, in the practical real world, the priest DOES matter. If you've ever been to a Liturgy with a priest who, lets say, there gift wasn't being a Liturgist, you'd know this is true. Definitely it doesn't change, but to claim the priest has NOTHING to do with it, is just not realistic.

Quote

The synagogues  like modern Roman Catholic Temples are a large hall for prayer, where people sit in front of the officiating elders (rabbim, cohanim, priests, bishops, etc.). The halls of prayers are patterned like a concert hall, a theatre, or an auditorium, and the officiants perform their services in a sort of stage, where a bima or altar is placed. Some have separate buildings or rooms, for religious studies, meetings, and other religious activities.

Funny, a lot of Orthodox congregations seem to think going to Liturgy in those same terms. No one ever participates, prays, sings, or does anything...they simply sit there and "listen to that wonderful choir".......


Quote
A synagogue can be any building, it does not have a specific architecture, and it doesn't have to have a specific orientation, for jews,  it's just a place where they gather to pray.

Yeah, and Jesus went to synagogues to pray.....what is your point? Technically the Liturgy can be celebrated in any building to, and actually a Church is technically "any building" that has simply been blessed/consecrated. The buildings are not the Church or the Temple, the people of God are the Church/Temple of God. This has to be true, because the early Christians celebrated Liturgies underground, in caves, and in other various places.


Also, Orthodox Churches are modeled after both synagogue services, AND the Temple service, and our Churches are often times close replicas of the Jewish Temple in architecture. It's simply a fact of history, which usually some Evangelicals freak out about (seeing as how they are against Liturgical worship) but is a strange argument coming from an Orthodox Christian.


Quote

There is no use of incense in the synagogues. Where did you see it? Where did you get that idea from?

Maybe he was thinking about the incense burned in the Jewish Temple. And that our worship was a unification of the synagogue and Temple services of the Jews. Yes, God revealed it, but He revealed to the Jews first, as Christ said, Salvation comes from the Jews.




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« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2009, 04:10:04 PM »

I have a question for Pravoslav09:

Are you trying to say the Church does not accept Jews as a race, or are you saying the Church does not accept Jews as a religion?

There is a huge difference between the two.
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« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2009, 04:26:05 PM »

The Church received Her liturgical practices from God. This divinely revealed correct way of worshiping and glorifying the One True God, was preserved by the people of God.

Right

Quote
Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God, it can be said they are one of the first protestant splinter groups, in the history of the One True Religion where God is correctly worshipped and glorifyed.

When did they do that?

Quote
Some traditions in the Church were revealed before the incarnation, and others were revealed during the incarnation, and afterwards, but they were all revealed by the One True God, and they were handed down to us by His servants, who preserved them, and not by His enemies, the jews who corrupted and distorted them.

By whom had they been preserved prior to Pentecost as they were only Jews, not Christians? Start the word Jew with a capital letter as spelling rules say.


Quote
The Orthodox Divine Liturgy, is a representation of the entire life of Christ our God upon earth, this is why it doesn't matter if the celebrating priest is not a very good preacher, the Divine Liturgy teaches us by itself.

In a form of modified Jewish service.


Quote
(a description of synagogal service)
There is no use of incense in the synagogues. Where did you see it? Where did you get that idea from?

DL is based on Jewish Temple service, not on synagogal prayers

Quote
I wouldn't be surprised to hear the shofar during some Roman Catholic services (joke), but hey, I've heard the electric guitar, the keyboard, bongos, guitar, cymbals, triangles, and other instruments during Roman Catholic masses, weddings, and other services, so I guess they have enough instruments, and they don't need the shofar.

Psalm 91, 1-5



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« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2009, 04:39:55 PM »

Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God, it can be say they are one of the first protestant splinter groups, in the history of the One True Religion where God is correctly worshipped and glorifyed

Er..This is simply delusional and despite claims of the poster to be "Traditionally Orthodox" is a classic example of  Heterodox thinking.

Those Christian groups outside the Church often emphasize their own personal comfort in realtion to  the doctrines and practices of the Church. If something about the  Church or it's history or it's practices makes the individual person uncomfortable, then it is the the Church that must change. The Church conforms to the person.

The actual Orthodox Church  is more demanding. You are called upon to alter yourself to conform to the Church, not the other way around. Clearly these few posters are looking through their own personal anti-semetic lens and reconstructing the Church and things like it's history as they want it, rather than how it is. They are bigoted against Jews, so the history of the Church must change to make them feel at home.

We often think of Left and Right ( liberal and conservative postions) on a straight line. In my opinion these designations should be thought of as on a circle. The folks who put themselves on the very outer edge of "conservative" really have much more in common with those only an inch away from them on the most Liberal place on the circle. Each plays fast and loose with well established facts and their own opinions likes and dislikes trump reality.


The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.
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« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2009, 04:44:02 PM »

The Church received Her liturgical practices from God. This divinely revealed correct way of worshiping and glorifying the One True God, was preserved by the people of God.

There is only one way to worship God?  And that would be in the Byzantine style liturgy?  

One wonders how this theory fits with WR.

Quote
Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God, it can be said they are one of the first protestant splinter groups, in the history of the One True Religion where God is correctly worshipped and glorifyed.

This is sheer historic nonsense.  The Jews were the Chosen People of the Old Testament.  They did not 'break away' from anything.  Peter has correctly pointed out that Christianity could be viewed in the same way as a faction or sect that left.  

Quote
Some traditions in the Church were revealed before the incarnation, and others were revealed during the incarnation, and afterwards, but they were all revealed by the One True God, and they were handed down to us by His servants, who preserved them, and not by His enemies, the jews who corrupted and distorted them.

Can you please give some examples of what you think these "traditions" are and how they were "corrupted"?  If  you are making an accusation, it is helpful to know some specifics.  How much have you really studied Jewish religious practices?

Quote
David received divine revelation, the psaloms are the core of many Orthodox prayers and liturgical services.

The Psalms are also poems that were composed/written by Human Beings.  Or are you claiming that God dictated them verbatim?

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Now concerning synagogues, there are very similar to Roman Catholic modern temples, and the modern modifications of ancient catholic temples of Novus Ordo. (Some Roman Catholic Temples preserve the Orthodox Architecture).

Again, do you have examples and have you been a student of architecture?  Are you saying that there is one kind of particularly "sacred" building method?

Quote
The synagogues  like modern Roman Catholic Temples are a large hall for prayer, where people sit in front of the officiating elders (rabbim, cohanim, priests, bishops, etc.). The halls of prayers are patterned like a concert hall, a theatre, or an auditorium, and the officiants perform their services in a sort of stage, where a bima or altar is placed. Some have separate buildings or rooms, for religious studies, meetings, and other religious activities.

The same could be said of some EO churches that I have been in.  

Quote
A synagogue can be any building, it does not have a specific architecture, and it doesn't have to have a specific orientation, for jews,  it's just a place where they gather to pray. What's important for the jews is that there are 7 officiants to conduct a religious service, and a minimum of 10 assistants, for a prayer service.

The minyan of 10 adult males is what is needed ideally for a worship service.  They are not "assistants".  Where did you get the requirement for "7 officiants", please.  From what I know there is often a Rabbi and a Cantor.   Are you trying to say that the numbers 7 and 10 are somehow significant or of special meaning?

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What is important in the synagogues is the place of the Aron k'desh. Everyone has to face the Aron, so they put it in a place, in order to make everyone face the Kotel, in Jerusalem. The Aron K'desh is where the scrolls of the Torah (jewish version of the old testament) are kept.

You wrote just above "and it doesn't have to have a specific orientation" and here you write that it *does* have an orientation so that people face Jerusalem.  This is a contradiction.

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The only division in a jewish synagogue is the m'kitzah, and it only divides men and women's seating areas.

That's "mechitzah", it's a curtain and not all synagogues have them. Some EO churches have a "division" in that females and males are in different areas.  From the way you wrote above it read like you were saying that the raised platform/stage was a "division".  Why do you think this particular point is "important" please?


There is a lamp that is always lit in the synagogues, it's a simple lamp. The full menorrah, (7 arms chandelier) if lit only in special services, and it's never placed on the Bima, it's placed somewhere else in the prayer hall. The full menorrah is used mostly at homes.

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The jewish services, as well as the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo masses are just the reciting of prayers, some singing, silent prayers, the reading of the Scripture, and officiants face the congregation. There are specific rituals corresponding to each group, of course, but the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo services are very jewish in spirit.

Since Peter has already remarked on this, I hope that my comments do not cause offense.  That description covers some of the EO services that I have attended, with the priest/bishop sometimes facing the congregation and sometimes doing things behind the iconostasis.  

I am beginning to wonder just what you mean by "jewish in spirit" beyond something you personally like or that you have decided is somehow "tainted".  Undecided

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I wouldn't be surprised to hear the shofar during some Roman Catholic services (joke), but hey, I've heard the electric guitar, the keyboard, bongos, guitar, cymbals, triangles, and other instruments during Roman Catholic masses, weddings, and other services, so I guess they have enough instruments, and they don't need the shofar.

While the above seems to be in jest, we have it in the Psalms themselves references to praising God with the cymbals and stringed instruments:

Psalm 92
 "1 It is good to praise the LORD
       and make music to your name, O Most High,
 2 to proclaim your love in the morning
       and your faithfulness at night,
 3 to the music of the ten-stringed lyre
       and the melody of the harp.

Or in Psalm 150

1 Praise the LORD. [a]
       Praise God in his sanctuary;
       praise him in his mighty heavens.
 2 Praise him for his acts of power;
       praise him for his surpassing greatness.
 3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
       praise him with the harp and lyre,
 4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
       praise him with the strings and flute,
 5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
       praise him with resounding cymbals.
 6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
       Praise the LORD.

So you may hold the opinion that there's something wrong with using instruments in worship, but by you own statements God gave divine revelation to David to write the Psalms and there it is.

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From your comments, I think you haven't been to a jewish religious service, and you don't know.

How many have you been to, where and when?  What branch of Judaism was it?  Was it a holiday, a Sabbath or a regular work-day prayer service?

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Before we talk about something, it's important to know what we're talking about, we are not children anymore, and we can't just say things. Think before you talk, please.

or write.  Good advice for all parties it would seem.

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« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2009, 04:45:43 PM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 
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« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2009, 04:58:52 PM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 

Its not any book-learning, it personal sources, some friends, some clergy.
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« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2009, 05:45:42 PM »


The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

This is as absurd as saying that Eastern Orthodox worship Icons, or the Bible, or the writings of St. Mark of Ephesus, more than we "worship" the Bible. BTW we don't worship the Bible, and neither do Jews. You need to read up on the difference between worship and veneration. Regardless, Orthodoxy has just as much non-canonical traditions and writings that we hold in high esteem, and yes, some people would suggest we sometimes hold in too high esteem, but that's their problem, not ours. The Church fathers are essentially our version of the Talmud.

As for the Jewish religion being "altered", which parts? Can you give a specific example? I'm sure for every specific example you can give, we can give you a pretty close parallel "alteration" within the Church as well.

You're sounding more and more like an Evangelical Protestant, who "has it on good knowledge that Orthodox Christians worship pictures, and think Mary gave birth to God the father"......complete and utterly ridiculous. Just as much nonsense as the early Roman accusations that "we have it on good word that these Christ followers sacrifice someones son and eat his flesh and blood...they are cannibals I tell you...."

I mean, even if all of what you guys are saying was true, what the heck difference does it make? Who are YOU to be judging the Jewish people and their religion? Isn't that up to God? The Church is the ark of SALVATION, not the gavel of judgment.

I actually have an honest question...and enquiry if you will....where did you come up with all this? These beliefs about the Jews I mean? Were you taught this growing up? By your parents? In the Church? By your priests? Or did you deduce all this on your own later in your life?

That is a serious question.....and I'd like a specific answer, not "that's the teaching of the Church", but "my priest, bishop, parents, uncles, schools or whatever, taught me this".....

I'm curious out of concern. Thank you.......








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« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2009, 05:48:44 PM »

So you've never attended a Jewish service?  

You're going by second hand "knowledge"?  Are these friends and clergy Jewish or formerly Jewish?  

How are they "authorities" one wonders, and do they perhaps have some bias or ax to grind or they got their information from a friend?

Just saying something doesn't make it true.  Why should people reading this thread accept you or Pravoslav09 as authorities on another faith about which you have written unsupported accusations, sweeping generalizations that are not accurate (the supposed names list) and contemptuous opinions.

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« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2009, 07:50:19 PM »

Dear antiderivative,

Very good question.

In this context by jewish and jews, I refer to today's jews, or judaism, which comes from the pernicious sect of God hating people who killed the prophets, distorted the scriptures, became His crucifiers, and are in constant war against the Law of God, the Church, and His servants.


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« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2009, 08:44:01 PM »

So for you it is only people who are religiously practicing Judaism?  Being of a Jewish ethnicity does not matter to you? 

Many of the Prophets were Jews themselves.  It's in the Old Testament.

What examples can you give of how the Scriptures have been "distorted"?  Do you read Hebrew or Aramaic? 

How many Jews do you know personally?  How do you know that they "hate God"?   

As to "being at war", do you deny that people who claimed to be Christian attacked and were "at war" with Jewish people over the centuries, sometimes in EO countries? 



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« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2009, 08:55:29 PM »

In this context by jewish and jews, I refer to today's jews, or judaism, which comes from the pernicious sect of God hating people who killed the prophets, distorted the scriptures, became His crucifiers, and are in constant war against the Law of God, the Church, and His servants.
Do you have an opinion one way or another on anti-semitism?
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« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2009, 12:26:18 AM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 

Its not any book-learning, it personal sources, some friends, some clergy.

You should let your friends know that like Christianity, Judaism is not monolithic but contains several different sects and modes of Worship.

For example the Karaites don't make the same assumptions or use the Rabbinical system of teaching.   
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« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2009, 01:08:26 AM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 

Its not any book-learning, it personal sources, some friends, some clergy.

You should let your friends know that like Christianity, Judaism is not monolithic but contains several different sects and modes of Worship.

For example the Karaites don't make the same assumptions or use the Rabbinical system of teaching.   

neither the Frankists, Sabbetai Tzvi followers (Ataturk was from this system) and others.

I am only talking about Normative Judaism 
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« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2009, 01:15:46 AM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 

Its not any book-learning, it personal sources, some friends, some clergy.

You should let your friends know that like Christianity, Judaism is not monolithic but contains several different sects and modes of Worship.

For example the Karaites don't make the same assumptions or use the Rabbinical system of teaching.   

neither the Frankists, Sabbetai Tzvi followers (Ataturk was from this system) and others.

I am only talking about Normative Judaism 

Interesting how you busy yourself to tell Jews what they must believe, so you can condemn them.
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« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2009, 02:31:16 AM »

Before we talk about something, it's important to know what we're talking about, we are not children anymore, and we can't just say things. Think before you talk, please.
It's also important to know what the other person is talking about.  For instance, I made it very clear I wasn't talking about modern synagogue practices.

So you don't buy into the recognition that whatever liturgical practices the Orthodox Church has inherited from the Jews were revealed directly by the pre-incarnate Christ to Moses on Mount Sinai, revealed as being the pattern of worship in the heavenly realm?

Read the above again and tell me where I say anything about the modern synagogue.  You won't find it in there, because it isn't there.  What is there is my discussion of practices that God revealed to Moses on Mt. Sinai and which the Jews preserved in their Tabernacle and later in their Temple.
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« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2009, 02:45:28 AM »

Peter has correctly pointed out that Christianity could be viewed in the same way as a faction or sect that left.  

...

Since Peter has already remarked on this, I hope that my comments do not cause offense.
Are you talking about moi? Huh  I can't take credit for what you're attributing to me. Wink
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« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2009, 03:36:53 AM »

I have moved my debate with Irish Hermit to this thread in Faith Issues:

The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
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« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2009, 09:02:42 AM »

Are you talking about moi? Huh  I can't take credit for what you're attributing to me. Wink

I beg your pardon, Peter.  It was NorthernPines post that I was thinking of but since you were replying to Pravoslav09 as well there was a umm "short circuit" in my typing...  I'm very sorry for the mistake.

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« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2009, 09:43:42 AM »

Regarding Pravoslav09 and sdcheung,

In this and other threads,both of these posters have consistently held on to their outrageous positions in spite of others' complete refutation of them. They seem to be immune to facts, logic, irony, satire or Christian rebuke. Of course they have to right to say anything that they please. But proverbs may be most applicable to these two posters:

Proverbs 15:14 "The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, But the mouth of fools feeds on foolishness."

Proverbs 16:22 "Understanding is a wellspring of life to him who has it. But the correction of fools is folly."
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« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2009, 10:17:47 AM »


In this context by jewish and jews, I refer to today's jews, or judaism, which comes from the pernicious sect of God hating people who killed the prophets, distorted the scriptures, became His crucifiers, and are in constant war against the Law of God, the Church, and His servants.


I still cannot tell exactly "who" are the Jews you're refering to. Judaism and it's self understanding is a complex issue....one can be a Jew and be an atheist, and one can be not ethnically Jewish, and yet undergo conversion and be a full fledged 100% Jew from that moment forward to the point of being considered ethnically Jewish, even if there is no Jewish DNA in the person. (we see this in the Old Testament) And one can be a Christian and be ethnically Jewish, but in the eyes of Judaism even a Jew who converts to Christianity is still a Jew. So I'm still a bit confused....sorry....

So it's still hard to tell who you are refering to, exactly,  which seems to be the case with almost every person in history who has ever taken the position you and others on here are taking. There are no real specifics, so "the Jews" becomes a blanket statement meaning "all" Jews everywhere. If you mean the religion of Judaism, do you take the same stance with all religions? You're "in" and everyone else  is "out" and so all other people "hate God"?
 
And then that brings us to you saying that Jews are "God hating" people? By this you mean "the ones who killed the prophets" or the Jews today? I'm confused. I think you mean the ancient Jews, but of course they all weren't "God haters", as many remained faithful, including the prophets themselves.

If you mean the one's that "killed the prophets", do you know their names? Who are they so we too can know and not confuse a select few people and Israeli kings from 3000 years ago, with the Jews today.

If you mean "today's" Jews, unfortunately for you, no Jew today was alive 2000 years ago, so they could not have possibly have crucified Jesus. And if they were alive, wow....how come I've never seen these 2000 year old people on TV. That's amazing.

Lastly, you do realize that IF the Jews had NOT "crucified Christ", (although that was actually the Romans, but for argument's sake I'll take you're view) and had the entire Jewish nation accepted Him as their Messiah, you and I and every other Gentile would have been LOST for all eternity. The Greeks, Romans, Irish, Russians, Africans, Indians, Serbians, Romanians, and every other Gentile in the world would have been lost without Christ's crucifixion.....did you ever think that perhaps this was part of God's plan for crying out loud?





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« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2009, 03:45:55 PM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 

Its not any book-learning, it personal sources, some friends, some clergy.

You should let your friends know that like Christianity, Judaism is not monolithic but contains several different sects and modes of Worship.

For example the Karaites don't make the same assumptions or use the Rabbinical system of teaching.   

neither the Frankists, Sabbetai Tzvi followers (Ataturk was from this system) and others.

I am only talking about Normative Judaism 

Perhaps it's time for you to find a new Hobby
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« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2009, 09:33:26 PM »

sdcheung: Ataturk was a jew?HuhHuh

And here, silly me, all this time I thought he was a Turkish Muslim! With a name like "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk".

(Smacking forehead)
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« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2009, 09:42:28 PM »

sdcheung: Ataturk was a jew?HuhHuh

And here, silly me, all this time I thought he was a Turkish Muslim! With a name like "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk".

(Smacking forehead)

He was a Turkish speaking Albanian Muslim born in Greece.
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« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2009, 10:24:20 PM »

Dear NorthernPines

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity. According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath. Will there anyone be judged for crimes against humanity? Will the soviet holocaust receive so much dissemination? Will antichristianity be condemned? Will survivors and other victims receive compensation, and retributive justice? Will the jews be forced to apologize and be closely monitored so that this massacre is never repeated? Will True Orthodox Christians become the "untouchables" and the slightest criticism towards them will be considered as antichristianity, racism, hate propaganda, intolerance and the like? Will the True Russian Orthodox Christians have so much power as to boss other religions round, and force them to remove what they don't like labeling it as antichristianity? ........


But specifically, in this thread, I was talking about the traditions of today's religious jews, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church.


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« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2009, 10:39:49 PM »

It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity. According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath.
This sounds like a twist on history formulated for the purpose of advancing anti-Semitism.  Do you have any sources to back up these claims?
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« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2009, 10:50:07 PM »

Dear NorthernPines

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity. According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath. Will there anyone be judged for crimes against humanity? Will the soviet holocaust receive so much dissemination? Will antichristianity be condemned? Will survivors and other victims receive compensation, and retributive justice? Will the jews be forced to apologize and be closely monitored so that this massacre is never repeated? Will True Orthodox Christians become the "untouchables" and the slightest criticism towards them will be considered as antichristianity, racism, hate propaganda, intolerance and the like? Will the True Russian Orthodox Christians have so much power as to boss other religions round, and force them to remove what they don't like labeling it as antichristianity? ........


But specifically, in this thread, I was talking about the traditions of today's religious jews, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church.

No, it is about traditions you project on who you define as a religious jews (when not imagining them out of whole cloth) which you allege the Vatican  has adopted.

And you still have not explained why you are around Jews and the Vatican at worship to know what they are doing, enough to be an expert on their liturgics.

One who spreads lies can't complain about being called out as a liar.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 10:50:29 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2009, 11:51:39 PM »

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

So for you "Jewish" is a genetic condition?  People who may have had Jewish ancestors but are not practicing Jews themselves are still "Jewish"?  What of people who are not of that ethnicity but convert to Judaism?  What of people who are now Christian but who had some ancestor who was Jewish?  How far back in a person's lineage does it go, if this is the case, please?

Quote
It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity.

Will you please give some sources and numbers?  Also, Stalin was not Jewish and he is responsible for much of the evil of the mid-20th  century in Russia, was he not?

Quote
According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

Will you please give some of these sources also?  Are they in English?  Also, when you write that this happened in Japan, you are bringing up a country whose history is a particular interest of mine as may be seen in various threads here on the forum. With the Japanese occupations in Korea, Manchuria and parts of Siberia before and during WWII, I have some knowledge of these areas as well.   To what are you referring to with regards to killing of EO in Japan and China?  What dates or locations are you thinking of, please? Japan's interactions with Russia date to the late 19th century and of course there is the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05.  But that is, of course, before the Revolution.

Quote
It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide

Done by the Soviets against such groups as the Ukrainians (the "Holodomor" famine) the "White Russians" from 1917 to 1923, people who did not support the Communist regime among others?  These are not unknown or hidden bits of history.  The Soviet government also killed persons of Jewish extraction who did not support them, such as Osip Mandelstam.  Stalin himself is reported to have been anti-Semitic (see Stalin's Secret War by the British writer Nikolai Tolstoy).  There's plenty more death and suppression from the Soviet rulers directed at many different groups.

Quote
, and the role of atheistic jews in it

Or of atheistic non-Jews such as Stalin and other Soviet officials?


Quote
But specifically, in this thread, I was talking about the traditions of today's religious jews, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church.

Which frankly don't appear to be true according to postings by RC members of the forum.  Singing a song that has an origin in Hebrew is not practicing a "Jewish tradition" any more then if I were to sing an Russian song or an EO hymn would have me "practicing an EO tradition".  At least I wouldn't be somehow becoming Russian or EO by doing so.   Your statement about 10 "assistants" doesn't apply since there doesn't seem to be any requirement for that many acolytes in an RC service, nor "7" officiants. (I know that sometimes EO services have a number of altar boys taking turns in helping. If there are 10 of them does that make the EO service follow a "Jewish tradition"?  I don't think so.) You have not established that these numbers have any connection to either Religion. 

You seem to be making accusations of things that you don't like against other people of whom you don't approve or like.

 Undecided

Ebor



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« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2009, 01:59:31 AM »

Who is the moderator of this section?

Right! It's not Peter The Aleut.

How about respecting the moderator of this section Peter?

There's a lot of room for improvement in your own work, Why do you have to meddle in the job of others?

Why allure others to your own sections?

Are you a schadenfreuder? A control freak? 

Did the moderator ask for help? If so, help, instead of ruining the job of others.

As a way of protesting and standing up against your abuses, I will not participate in the thread you started about the union between catholics and world orthodoxy. I'll start my own when I really want to discuss that specific subject. Thnx, but no thnx.



« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 02:04:17 AM by IPC » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2009, 02:14:30 AM »

This sounds like a twist on history formulated for the purpose of advancing anti-Semitism.  Do you have any sources to back up these claims?

Oh no you don't, not in here PeterTheAleut. I will start a thread on this, in the politics forum, there we can talk.

Nice try! But you gotta do better than that.

And as you say, it's nothing personal  Cheesy
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