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Author Topic: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH  (Read 14532 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 16, 2009, 09:22:07 PM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.

Is there any Roman Catholic, or former Roman Catholic in this forum that has seen this?



« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 09:22:47 PM by Pravoslav09 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2009, 10:20:45 PM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.

Is there any Roman Catholic, or former Roman Catholic in this forum that has seen this?





Why are you praying with heretics, that you notice this, O more Orthodox than thou? Roll Eyes police
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2009, 11:22:07 PM »

Which RC churches in what cities, please?  Did you witness this first hand or just hear about it? 
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 12:01:19 AM »



In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.



Sounds like a Hippie mass, or a hare Krishna catholic mass..

Guitars and Drums?
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2009, 12:02:02 AM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.

Is there any Roman Catholic, or former Roman Catholic in this forum that has seen this?





Why are you praying with heretics, that you notice this, O more Orthodox than thou? Roll Eyes police

I usually do it to get a laugh.
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2009, 12:14:17 AM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.


I am gobsmacked that Bishop Diomid gives his blessing for members of the Russian Zarist Church to attend Roman Catholic services!!

« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 12:26:11 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 12:24:25 AM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.


I am gobsmacked the Bishop Diomid gives his blessing for members of the Russian Zarist Church to attend Roman Catholic services!!



maybe it was a weekday service.
It's called Research, and "Roman Catholic studies", study them in their native habitat. i do it all the time.

It's called a "Zoo"
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2009, 12:28:16 AM »

maybe it was a weekday service.
It's called Research, and "Roman Catholic studies", study them in their native habitat. i do it all the time.

It's called a "Zoo"

What a truly pleasant and loving character you are, so full of love and compassion for your fellow man ...  Tongue  Tongue  Tongue
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 12:28:34 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2009, 12:31:12 AM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.


I am gobsmacked the Bishop Diomid gives his blessing for members of the Russian Zarist Church to attend Roman Catholic services!!



maybe it was a weekday service.

I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2009, 12:32:21 AM »

maybe it was a weekday service.
It's called Research, and "Roman Catholic studies", study them in their native habitat. i do it all the time.

It's called a "Zoo"

What a truly pleasant and loving character you are, so full of love and compassion for your fellow man ...  Tongue  Tongue  Tongue

...thank you.
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2009, 12:33:18 AM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.


I am gobsmacked the Bishop Diomid gives his blessing for members of the Russian Zarist Church to attend Roman Catholic services!!



maybe it was a weekday service.

I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   

spocks eye brow lift/

Semitic Research (semitic studies)?

If he really wanted to get in the min dof one, he should just open up a Jewish newspaper.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 12:34:14 AM by sdcheung » Logged


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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2009, 12:34:51 AM »

Well, the other unsubstantiated calumnies notwithstanding, at least he described us as a "church."  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2009, 12:35:37 AM »

Well, the other unsubstantiated calumnies notwithstanding, at least he described us as a "church."  Wink

Thank God for small mercies, I suppose ....  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2009, 12:42:22 AM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.


I am gobsmacked the Bishop Diomid gives his blessing for members of the Russian Zarist Church to attend Roman Catholic services!!



maybe it was a weekday service.

I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   

spocks eye brow lift/

Semitic Research (semitic studies)?

If he really wanted to get in the mind of one, he should just open up a Jewish newspaper.

Exactly,  you don't have to become a frequenter of brothels to study the evils of prostitution.   Nor does Pravoslav09 need to attend the services of what Bishop Diomod has described as the Great Whore of the Book of Revelation sitting on the Seven Hills to learn about the RCs.  The idea that Bp Diomid blesses his faithful to so such things is just mindboggling.  We are getting into very murky waters.
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2009, 01:05:31 AM »

Well, the other unsubstantiated calumnies notwithstanding, at least he described us as a "church."  Wink

Yeah, but really we all know that he meant Parasynagogue of Satan!  Or was the Great Whore of the Book of Revelation sitting on the Seven Hills?  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2009, 01:41:50 AM »

I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   
I have a question: Are you a priest? I am not trying to be smart here, I just don't know. If you are, then I'd like to ask you if making such remarks are in any way edifying? With all due respect, of course.
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« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2009, 01:55:18 AM »

I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   
I have a question: Are you a priest?

I think that Forum Rules prevent you asking and me answering personal questions so I'll PM you.

Quote
If you are, then I'd like to ask you if making such remarks are in any way edifying?

The remarks proceed from

1. a sense of frustration and a sense of shame that now we seem to have finished trashing the Jews we are moving on to the Catholics

2. a belief that humour can help dissipate such irascibility

3. the term "parasynagogue of Satan" is applied by the Fathers to schismatic and heretical church groups and so it is possible to follow their example and use it in an Orthodox way.... but in this thread I am using it only ironically.

4.  "not edifying"?   I have found both the thread on the Jews and now this thread on Catholics to be completely disedifying and utterly shameful (imho.)  I am pleased that neither of them can be credited to members of my own Church.  One way to deal with the ghastliness of what is being said is to prick the bubble and introduce a bit of lighthearted lampoonery.
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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2009, 02:20:52 AM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.

Is there any Roman Catholic, or former Roman Catholic in this forum that has seen this?





Why are you praying with heretics, that you notice this, O more Orthodox than thou? Roll Eyes police

 laugh
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2009, 03:31:51 AM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.

Is there any Roman Catholic, or former Roman Catholic in this forum that has seen this?
Yes.
Dear friends:
There is a group of Hebrew Catholics who have formed an interesting website: the Association of Hebrew Catholics.
http://hebrewcatholic.org/

 The site has many articles and links to biographies of famous Hebrew Catholics, and as well has a link to the site: http://www.liturgica.com/html/litEOLitEarly.jsp
Here we find that
“Early Christianity began with a basic form that was a modified form of the Jewish Synagogue rite (or synaxis) that was coupled with a Eucharistic service (a modified Temple rite). Together these two services composed the core of the early liturgy. The earliest liturgical rites were very Jewish in form, for the earliest Christians were Jews who believed their Messiah had come in the person of Jesus Christ.”
“Among the earliest pieces of Eastern Orthodox liturgical music, which attest to this transition, is the hymn "O Gladsome Light." This hymn is recited or sung every evening at the setting of the sun during Vespers. The text of this hymn was cited by St. Justin the Martyr in about 150 A.D. in his dialogue with Trypho. Although it pre-dated the Byzantium, it is referred to as "Byzantine." It is clearly Greek in its musical form and composition, while it possesses a text that is clearly Jewish in origin and conforms to the Jewish calendar in which the day ends and begins at sunset.”
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 03:33:00 AM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2009, 01:25:59 PM »

I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   
I have a question: Are you a priest?

I think that Forum Rules prevent you asking and me answering personal questions so I'll PM you.

Quote
If you are, then I'd like to ask you if making such remarks are in any way edifying?

The remarks proceed from

1. a sense of frustration and a sense of shame that now we seem to have finished trashing the Jews we are moving on to the Catholics

2. a belief that humour can help dissipate such irascibility

3. the term "parasynagogue of Satan" is applied by the Fathers to schismatic and heretical church groups and so it is possible to follow their example and use it in an Orthodox way.... but in this thread I am using it only ironically.

4.  "not edifying"?   I have found both the thread on the Jews and now this thread on Catholics to be completely disedifying and utterly shameful (imho.)  I am pleased that neither of them can be credited to members of my own Church.  One way to deal with the ghastliness of what is being said is to prick the bubble and introduce a bit of lighthearted lampoonery.
No need to PM me, it's none of my business anyway. Thank you
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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
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« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2009, 02:35:39 PM »

I witnessed many RC rites in the parish I grew up, played with guitars, drums and children singing Allelujah shaking and clapping their hands as if they were at a gospel concert...
As my professor of philosophy always said: Abyssus abyssum clamat...
On the question of Hebrew Catholicism, I just wonder why they didn't adopt the more genuine "Divine Liturgy of st James". After all, it was developped after Jewish worship by one of the most important Judeo Christians of the Apostolic Age...

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2009, 02:58:07 PM »

I witnessed many RC rites in the parish I grew up, played with guitars, drums and children singing Allelujah shaking and clapping their hands as if they were at a gospel concert...
As my professor of philosophy always said: Abyssus abyssum clamat...
On the question of Hebrew Catholicism, I just wonder why they didn't adopt the more genuine "Divine Liturgy of st James". After all, it was developped after Jewish worship by one of the most important Judeo Christians of the Apostolic Age...

In Christ,   Alex
This has chased many Catholics away from the Church. It has made me look elsewhere for "genuine" worship.

To tell you the truth, I can't stand these guitar Masses. It drives me nuts because it's nothing like what I grew up with. Might as well be a Lutheran!

I think that people in the Vatican need to overhaul the hippie-influenced Mass. Better yet, make the Extraordinary Latin Mass the norm, and the hippie Mass the eccentric, extra-extraordinary Mass for those that like that kind of stuff.

Sorry, but this makes me express the way I feel about the modern Mass and it seems no one in the upper echolon is listening.
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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2009, 04:36:43 PM »

I witnessed many RC rites in the parish I grew up, played with guitars, drums and children singing Allelujah shaking and clapping their hands as if they were at a gospel concert...
As my professor of philosophy always said: Abyssus abyssum clamat...
On the question of Hebrew Catholicism, I just wonder why they didn't adopt the more genuine "Divine Liturgy of st James". After all, it was developped after Jewish worship by one of the most important Judeo Christians of the Apostolic Age...

In Christ,   Alex
This has chased many Catholics away from the Church. It has made me look elsewhere for "genuine" worship.

To tell you the truth, I can't stand these guitar Masses. It drives me nuts because it's nothing like what I grew up with. Might as well be a Lutheran!

I think that people in the Vatican need to overhaul the hippie-influenced Mass. Better yet, make the Extraordinary Latin Mass the norm, and the hippie Mass the eccentric, extra-extraordinary Mass for those that like that kind of stuff.

Sorry, but this makes me express the way I feel about the modern Mass and it seems no one in the upper echolon is listening.

Contrary to rumors, the Holy See isn't all powerful. They can't police every parish, of which there are 220,000 worldwide.. What you describe isn't a legitimate option but rather is a liturgical abuse.

Catholics, when they see abuses, are to speak to the priest about them. If that fails to resolve the problem, Catholics are to report abuses to their local bishop. Failing that, they are then to report to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in Rome.

Or, if someone wishes to remain passive, he can simply go to another parish. There are 220,000 choices.

I do not take seriously anyone who leaves for another communion simply because he was not happy with the liturgy at his parish.

--

All that said, certainly there are serious problems with the liturgy in many places. The Holy See is working hard at fixing this, along with increasing numbers of bishops and priests. The laity also must play a part.

One of the better websites to watch this liturgical renewal unfold is here: http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/

Another good one: wdtprs.com




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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2009, 05:04:07 PM »

I witnessed many RC rites in the parish I grew up, played with guitars, drums and children singing Allelujah shaking and clapping their hands as if they were at a gospel concert...
As my professor of philosophy always said: Abyssus abyssum clamat...
On the question of Hebrew Catholicism, I just wonder why they didn't adopt the more genuine "Divine Liturgy of st James". After all, it was developped after Jewish worship by one of the most important Judeo Christians of the Apostolic Age...

In Christ,   Alex
This has chased many Catholics away from the Church. It has made me look elsewhere for "genuine" worship.

To tell you the truth, I can't stand these guitar Masses. It drives me nuts because it's nothing like what I grew up with. Might as well be a Lutheran!

I think that people in the Vatican need to overhaul the hippie-influenced Mass. Better yet, make the Extraordinary Latin Mass the norm, and the hippie Mass the eccentric, extra-extraordinary Mass for those that like that kind of stuff.

Sorry, but this makes me express the way I feel about the modern Mass and it seems no one in the upper echolon is listening.

Contrary to rumors, the Holy See isn't all powerful. They can't police every parish, of which there are 220,000 worldwide.. What you describe isn't a legitimate option but rather is a liturgical abuse.

Catholics, when they see abuses, are to speak to the priest about them. If that fails to resolve the problem, Catholics are to report abuses to their local bishop. Failing that, they are then to report to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in Rome.

Or, if someone wishes to remain passive, he can simply go to another parish. There are 220,000 choices.

I do not take seriously anyone who leaves for another communion simply because he was not happy with the liturgy at his parish.

--

All that said, certainly there are serious problems with the liturgy in many places. The Holy See is working hard at fixing this, along with increasing numbers of bishops and priests. The laity also must play a part.

One of the better websites to watch this liturgical renewal unfold is here: http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/

Another good one: wdtprs.com





How come there are so many so-called abuse problems with the Catholic liturgy and not so many with the Eastern Orthodox liturgies?
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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2009, 05:18:37 PM »

Maybe because our liturgy is felt of as an inspired expression of the Faith... we have a greater respect for liturgy as if it were a book of the Bible.
Anyway, I think that RCs should get back to the Tridentine Mass, at least they would have a beautiful rite for worship, with wonderful singing and a priest praying eastwards... Huh, I'm feeling nostalgic for a past I unfortunately never witnessed...
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2009, 05:48:45 PM »

How come there are so many so-called abuse problems with the Catholic liturgy and not so many with the Eastern Orthodox liturgies?

Why did the East fall under the devastating scourge of Iconoclasm centuries ago while the West was untouched? This too is a complicated question difficult to answer.

Among others, I personally think one of the reasons for today is that most Eastern Orthodox remain in still-conservative cultures. The numbers of Orthodox in countries like America are very small and fragmented.

As for Catholicism, it is much more difficult to find much liturgical abuse in countries like Mexico and Poland than in America or Western Europe, where many Catholics have been corrupted by modernism and secularism.




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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2009, 06:29:19 PM »

I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

You mean like iconography, chanting, burning incense, candles, colorful vestments, antiphonal singing, chanting the psalms, reading the Old Testament, praying Liturgically, celebrating feasts, fasting twice a week, having a male priesthood, the concept of the universal priesthood of all believers, having a "Sacrifice", confession before a priest, baptism, anointing with oil; you mean Jewish traditions like these? Yeah, shocking ain't it! Smiley






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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2009, 10:08:21 PM »

Dear Ebor,

I witnessed all this first hand.

The solemn high christmass mass with the 7 ministres giving the blessing jewish style. One time I saw that ritual in a Parrish of the Franciscan Order.

Masses where the jewish anthem is sung, accompanied by guitar and bongos. Mostly I saw that in a parrish of the Augustinian Recolletto Order.

I wouldn't mention it if it was just an urban legend, or hear and say.

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.

Not because something is not happening in your community, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your church (Roman Catholic Church) at all.


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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2009, 10:34:28 PM »

Ebor the most recent was about a couple of months ago, in the temple of St Monique from the Order of Augustinus Recolletus.
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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2009, 10:36:31 PM »

Thank you for your reply. In which city(ies)/country(ies) did you witness this please and was it recently?
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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2009, 11:36:44 PM »

When Roman Catholics start reciting the Talmud, then we'll talk. Wink
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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2009, 12:06:09 AM »

Dear Ebor,

I witnessed all this first hand.

The solemn high christmass mass with the 7 ministres giving the blessing jewish style. One time I saw that ritual in a Parrish of the Franciscan Order.

Masses where the jewish anthem is sung, accompanied by guitar and bongos. Mostly I saw that in a parrish of the Augustinian Recolletto Order.

I wouldn't mention it if it was just an urban legend, or hear and say.

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.

Not because something is not happening in your community, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your church (Roman Catholic Church) at all.




So you are admitting you pray with both Jews and heretics often enough that you can make a valid comparison and indentification between their rituals, huh?
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2009, 12:37:10 AM »

Dear Ebor,

I witnessed all this first hand.

The solemn high christmass mass with the 7 ministres giving the blessing jewish style. One time I saw that ritual in a Parrish of the Franciscan Order.

Masses where the jewish anthem is sung, accompanied by guitar and bongos. Mostly I saw that in a parrish of the Augustinian Recolletto Order.

I wouldn't mention it if it was just an urban legend, or hear and say.

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.

Not because something is not happening in your community, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your church (Roman Catholic Church) at all.




So you are admitting you pray with both Jews and heretics often enough that you can make a valid comparison and indentification between their rituals, huh?
Yeah, you can't pray with us heretics. Shocked
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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2009, 12:56:33 AM »

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.
This is true.
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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2009, 01:17:58 AM »

Yeah, you can't pray with us heretics. Shocked

To be fair, he was poking fun at Pravoslav09, not taking a stab at Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2009, 01:18:18 AM »


Why did the East fall under the devastating scourge of Iconoclasm centuries ago while the West was untouched? This too is a complicated question difficult to answer.

But still, the icons were restored to our Churches and for the last 1000 years they have been the glory of the Orthodox East.

Maybe God allowed your Liturgy to be destroyed for a similar reason and in the future your ancient Liturgy will return in all it glory and soar to new heights of beauty.
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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2009, 08:58:19 AM »


Why did the East fall under the devastating scourge of Iconoclasm centuries ago while the West was untouched? This too is a complicated question difficult to answer.

But still, the icons were restored to our Churches and for the last 1000 years they have been the glory of the Orthodox East.

Maybe God allowed your Liturgy to be destroyed for a similar reason and in the future your ancient Liturgy will return in all it glory and soar to new heights of beauty.

Very true. Before this trial, we took our liturgical patrimony for granted.

Now we don't.
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« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2009, 09:09:04 AM »

Yeah, you can't pray with us heretics. Shocked

To be fair, he was poking fun at Pravoslav09, not taking a stab at Roman Catholics.
That, and IIRC he also listed as one of the crimes of what he calls the Soviet Church, and the Orthodox Church calls the Patriarchate of Moscow, is that it's ecumenically minded and the PoM cohorts with heretics whenever he is not torturing "True Orthodox," kicking puppies or drowning kittens.
In fact, I think someone posted ALL the canons against this (I mean the praying with heretics.  I don't know if kicking puppies or drowning kittens are uncanonical acts. Sorry PETA).
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« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2009, 09:11:51 AM »


Why did the East fall under the devastating scourge of Iconoclasm centuries ago while the West was untouched? This too is a complicated question difficult to answer.

But still, the icons were restored to our Churches and for the last 1000 years they have been the glory of the Orthodox East.

Maybe God allowed your Liturgy to be destroyed for a similar reason and in the future your ancient Liturgy will return in all it glory and soar to new heights of beauty.

Very true. Before this trial, we took our liturgical patrimony for granted.

Now we don't.

You all also seem to be ridding yourself of a lot of dead weight of chaff.  The cafeteria is not only closed, having failed inspection, the Board of Health has condemned it.  The bulldozers should be arriving shortly.

(btw, the West wasn't so untouched: remember the Council of Frankfurt condemning the Seventh Ecumenical Council, and praising the filiqoue IIRC).
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« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2009, 01:20:35 PM »

I'm wondering if it was a NeoCatechuminal Way service. Apparently they do the liturgy a "bit" differently, and they put menorahs on the altar like in the last video link I pasted, and use guitars and bongos and dance around. AFAIK, it's supposed to be more pure and ancient or something. They are also apparently getting more popular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocatechumenal_Way
http://www.neocatechumenalway.us/Main.htm
http://www.youtube.com/user/ernie710
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfoD4WwMQLs
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« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2009, 05:22:49 PM »

The liturgical differences approved for the Neocatechumeanl Way are few and specified.  Admonitions(homiletic instructions) may precede the readings, echoes (testimonies by laity) may precede the homily,  the Sign of Peace is moved to before the Offertory.  Anything beyond this is liturgical abuse.
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« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2009, 05:29:28 PM »

The liturgical differences approved for the Neocatechumeanl Way are few and specified.  Admonitions(homiletic instructions) may precede the readings, echoes (testimonies by laity) may precede the homily,  the Sign of Peace is moved to before the Offertory.  Anything beyond this is liturgical abuse.

So they're not allowed to do things like in those videos anymore? The dancing, etc?
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« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2009, 05:52:43 PM »

The first video only shows them singing a hymn, that is allowed.  The second video showing the  dance around the altar is not allowed.
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« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2009, 06:09:06 PM »

So they're not allowed to do things like in those videos anymore? The dancing, etc?
It's really absurd to say that things are not allowed or that they are abuses, when they happen all the time in the Catholic Churches.
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« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2009, 06:56:20 PM »

So they're not allowed to do things like in those videos anymore? The dancing, etc?
It's really absurd to say that things are not allowed or that they are abuses, when they happen all the time in the Catholic Churches.

Well abuse or not, I was just wondering if a Neo Cat way mass is what the op witnessed, as they seem to have some Jewish additions.  Like this Pentecost service on You Tube from this year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF9OWY4_KvY&NR=1  In the video they have a menorah on their altar. 
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« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2009, 08:55:10 PM »

Dear Ebor,

I witnessed all this first hand.

The solemn high christmass mass with the 7 ministres giving the blessing jewish style. One time I saw that ritual in a Parrish of the Franciscan Order.

Masses where the jewish anthem is sung, accompanied by guitar and bongos. Mostly I saw that in a parrish of the Augustinian Recolletto Order.

I wouldn't mention it if it was just an urban legend, or hear and say.

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.

Not because something is not happening in your community, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your church (Roman Catholic Church) at all.




Sorry , bad news for you. Many elements of the Divine Liturgy have their source in the rituals done in the Synagogue. The Apostles and earliest disciples would attend Synagogue on Saturday and Church on Sunday. The Ethos of Synagogue Worship and Eastern Liturgies are alike. Anyone attending both in a row would certainly notice.

For one example when we take in procession the Holy Scriptures at Sat. Vigil, it is of the same type as the procession of the Torah in Synagogue. There is a book that outlines all of the similarities. I will try to find it.

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« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2009, 09:35:01 PM »

Dear Ebor,

I witnessed all this first hand.

The solemn high christmass mass with the 7 ministres giving the blessing jewish style. One time I saw that ritual in a Parrish of the Franciscan Order.

Masses where the jewish anthem is sung, accompanied by guitar and bongos. Mostly I saw that in a parrish of the Augustinian Recolletto Order.

I wouldn't mention it if it was just an urban legend, or hear and say.

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.

Not because something is not happening in your community, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your church (Roman Catholic Church) at all.




Sorry , bad news for you. Many elements of the Divine Liturgy have their source in the rituals done in the Synagogue. The Apostles and earliest disciples would attend Synagogue on Saturday and Church on Sunday. The Ethos of Synagogue Worship and Eastern Liturgies are alike. Anyone attending both in a row would certainly notice.

For one example when we take in procession the Holy Scriptures at Sat. Vigil, it is of the same type as the procession of the Torah in Synagogue. There is a book that outlines all of the similarities. I will try to find it.



"Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity with the Temple, the Synagogue and the Early Church"
by Benjamin D. Williams, H. Anstall?
http://books.google.com/books?id=1nm4AAAACAAJ&dq=Orthodox+Worship
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« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2009, 10:12:11 PM »

ialmisry bringing orthodox liturgics to this thread, could be off topic.

However, given that World Orthodoxy has united with the Roman Catholic Church, as witnessed by the mutual lifting of anathemas, the balamand agreement, and the joint services, such as this:

http://papalvisit.ecupatriarchate.org/press/articles.php?id=99

And the scheduled program of the Moscow Patriarchate to remove obstacles for a meeting between the Pope and the Patriarch of Moscow, which will include inter-religious services:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090213/120127238.html


It's possible to group the the Roman Catholic Church and World Orthodoxy as part of the same church, sister churches as they call each other, and discuss their traditions.


 

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« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2009, 10:13:05 PM »

I'm flummoxed at the idea that singing a *song* is somehow being Jewish.  That's carrying the anti-Jewish feeling pretty far along, it seems to me.  
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« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2009, 10:49:12 PM »

It's really absurd to say that things are not allowed or that they are abuses, when they happen all the time in the Catholic Churches.

Why so? Most Christians sin on a regular basis. Does that make it "absurd" to claim that such acts are still sins? God knows I decry as much as anyone the liturgical abuses in many areas*, but things are better than they were a couple of decades ago, and even if they weren't, they are still wrong. I'm one layperson, and I can only do so much. Rather than obsess over liturgical abuses I see on Youtube, I prefer to work for improvement where I can make a difference---my parish.

*Dancing and menorahs on altars are quite rare, incidentally---in fact, I've never seen either.

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« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2009, 10:52:39 PM »

You all also seem to be ridding yourself of a lot of dead weight of chaff.  The cafeteria is not only closed, having failed inspection, the Board of Health has condemned it.  The bulldozers should be arriving shortly.

Agreed. A pruning---sometimes painful but necessary.

Thanks your your good wishes.
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« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2009, 11:06:25 PM »

Out of respect for my colleague, Heorhij, since I essentially started the tangent, the response to Pravoslav09's statement that the Orthodox and Catholic churches are now united has been made the subject of its own Orthodox-Catholic Discussion thread.

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches Now United?

I have left the post from Pravoslav09 that spurred the tangent here for its vague implication that any Jewish liturgical practices found in the Catholic Church can also be considered liturgical innovations of the Orthodox Church, as well, since the two churches are supposedly now one.
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« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2009, 11:14:50 PM »

This is off topic Peter The Aleut, we are not discussing inter communion or any other specifics of that sort.

I mentioned unity. Quote from the joint Declaration of the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarchate:

"..to prepare the great day of the re-establishment of full unity,.."

Maybe that unity is partial, but yet, it exists, and both parts are relentlessly committed to the ongoing work of establishment full unity. They mutually recognize each other as two parts of the same church.

On these grounds, we can now go back to the main subject of discussion, and discuss jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church, and the other part of the same church: "World Orthodoxy".
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« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2009, 11:16:49 PM »

This is off topic Peter The Aleut, we are not discussing inter communion or any other specifics of that sort.

I mentioned unity. Quote from the joint Declaration of the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarchate:

"..to prepare the great day of the re-establishment of full unity,.."

Maybe that unity is partial, but yet, it exists, and both parts are relentlessly committed to the ongoing work of establishment full unity. They mutually recognize each other as two parts of the same church.

On these grounds, we can now go back to the main subject of discussion, and discuss jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church, and the other part of the same church: "World Orthodoxy".
See Reply #51 above (immediately before the Reply #52 I quoted in this post). Wink
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« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2009, 11:22:24 PM »

Those implications that "jewish innovations may be present in Orthodox Liturgics" were brought by ialmisry not me Peter The Aleut.

All I did was setting the grounds for him, and others sharing that opinion, so they can participate in this thread.

Just for the record: I consider the Traditional Orthodox Litugics as a God's given gift, flowing directly from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word, and I don't share the views of ialmisry at all.

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« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2009, 11:29:22 PM »

Those implications were brought by ialmisry not me Peter The Aleut, and I set the grounds for him, and others sharing that opinion, to add comments to this thread.
Please forgive me if I seem to have been attacking you, but this really isn't about you.  This is about how I responded to your post and the tangent I started by doing so.

Now, can we return to the topic of this thread?
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« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2009, 11:39:51 PM »

Those implications that "jewish innovations may be present in Orthodox Liturgics" were brought by ialmisry not me Peter The Aleut.

All I did was setting the grounds for him, and others sharing that opinion, so they can participate in this thread.

Just for the record: I consider the Traditional Orthodox Litugics as a God's given gift, flowing directly from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word, and I don't share the views of ialmisry at all.
So you don't buy into the recognition that whatever liturgical practices the Orthodox Church has inherited from the Jews were revealed directly by the pre-incarnate Christ to Moses on Mount Sinai, revealed as being the pattern of worship in the heavenly realm?

The orientation of the Church toward a common direction?
The separation of the sanctuary from the nave as patterned after the separation of the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple?
The seven-branched candle stand sitting on most Orthodox Christian altars (at least those that I've seen)?
The liturgical burning of incense?
The whole structure of liturgical worship itself?

Do you think the God-man Jesus Christ revealed these practices directly to the apostles?  Or was it the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ who revealed these patterns first to Moses?
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« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2009, 12:11:15 AM »

Those implications that "jewish innovations may be present in Orthodox Liturgics" were brought by ialmisry not me Peter The Aleut.

All I did was setting the grounds for him, and others sharing that opinion, so they can participate in this thread.

Just for the record: I consider the Traditional Orthodox Litugics as a God's given gift, flowing directly from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word, and I don't share the views of ialmisry at all.



From the only Gentile Gospel:

Luke 2:21 On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived. 22 When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”b), 24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”

41 Every year His parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42 When He was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. 43 After the Feast was over, while His parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking He was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for Him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found Him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard Him was amazed at his understanding and His answers. 48 When His parents saw Him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have You treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for You.” 49 “Why were you searching for Me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in My Father’s house?”

4:14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised Him. 16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day He went into the synagogue, as was His custom.

19:45 Then he entered the temple area and began driving out those who were selling. 46 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be a house of prayer’c; but you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’” 47 Every day He was teaching at the temple.

22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”



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« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2009, 11:39:31 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The Church received Her liturgical practices from God. This divinely revealed correct way of worshiping and glorifying the One True God, was preserved by the people of God.

Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God, it can be said they are one of the first protestant splinter groups, in the history of the One True Religion where God is correctly worshipped and glorifyed.

Some traditions in the Church were revealed before the incarnation, and others were revealed during the incarnation, and afterwards, but they were all revealed by the One True God, and they were handed down to us by His servants, who preserved them, and not by His enemies, the jews who corrupted and distorted them.

David received divine revelation, the psaloms are the core of many Orthodox prayers and liturgical services.

The Orthodox Divine Liturgy, is a representation of the entire life of Christ our God upon earth, this is why it doesn't matter if the celebrating priest is not a very good preacher, the Divine Liturgy teaches us by itself.

Now concerning synagogues, there are very similar to Roman Catholic modern temples, and the modern modifications of ancient catholic temples of Novus Ordo. (Some Roman Catholic Temples preserve the Orthodox Architecture).

The synagogues  like modern Roman Catholic Temples are a large hall for prayer, where people sit in front of the officiating elders (rabbim, cohanim, priests, bishops, etc.). The halls of prayers are patterned like a concert hall, a theatre, or an auditorium, and the officiants perform their services in a sort of stage, where a bima or altar is placed. Some have separate buildings or rooms, for religious studies, meetings, and other religious activities.

A synagogue can be any building, it does not have a specific architecture, and it doesn't have to have a specific orientation, for jews,  it's just a place where they gather to pray. What's important for the jews is that there are 7 officiants to conduct a religious service, and a minimum of 10 assistants, for a prayer service.

What is important in the synagogues is the place of the Aron k'desh. Everyone has to face the Aron, so they put it in a place, in order to make everyone face the Kotel, in Jerusalem. The Aron K'desh is where the scrolls of the Torah (jewish version of the old testament) are kept.

The only division in a jewish synagogue is the m'kitzah, and it only divides men and women's seating areas.

There is a lamp that is always lit in the synagogues, it's a simple lamp. The full menorrah, (7 arms chandelier) if lit only in special services, and it's never placed on the Bima, it's placed somewhere else in the prayer hall. The full menorrah is used mostly at homes.

There is no use of incense in the synagogues. Where did you see it? Where did you get that idea from?

The jewish services, as well as the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo masses are just the reciting of prayers, some singing, silent prayers, the reading of the Scripture, and officiants face the congregation. There are specific rituals corresponding to each group, of course, but the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo services are very jewish in spirit.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear the shofar during some Roman Catholic services (joke), but hey, I've heard the electric guitar, the keyboard, bongos, guitar, cymbals, triangles, and other instruments during Roman Catholic masses, weddings, and other services, so I guess they have enough instruments, and they don't need the shofar.

The Roman Catholic service preserves the basic structure of the Orthodox services, in a very abridged way if you follow the Novus Ordo, but jewish services have a totally different structure.

From your comments, I think you haven't been to a jewish religious service, and you don't know.

Before we talk about something, it's important to know what we're talking about, we are not children anymore, and we can't just say things. Think before you talk, please.


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« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2009, 12:04:37 PM »

Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God, it can be say they are one of the first protestant splinter groups, in the history of the One True Religion where God is correctly worshipped and glorifyed

Er..This is simply delusional and despite claims of the poster to be "Traditionally Orthodox" is a classic example of  Heterodox thinking.

Those Christian groups outside the Church often emphasize their own personal comfort in realtion to  the doctrines and practices of the Church. If something about the  Church or it's history or it's practices makes the individual person uncomfortable, then it is the the Church that must change. The Church conforms to the person.

The actual Orthodox Church  is more demanding. You are called upon to alter yourself to conform to the Church, not the other way around. Clearly these few posters are looking through their own personal anti-semetic lens and reconstructing the Church and things like it's history as they want it, rather than how it is. They are bigoted against Jews, so the history of the Church must change to make them feel at home.

We often think of Left and Right ( liberal and conservative postions) on a straight line. In my opinion these designations should be thought of as on a circle. The folks who put themselves on the very outer edge of "conservative" really have much more in common with those only an inch away from them on the most Liberal place on the circle. Each plays fast and loose with well established facts and their own opinions likes and dislikes trump reality.
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« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2009, 01:05:07 PM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The Church received Her liturgical practices from God. This divinely revealed correct way of worshiping and glorifying the One True God, was preserved by the people of God.

And the people of God before Christ were "The Jews", and all the first Christians were Jews.


Quote
Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God,


Funny, that's almost exactly how Judaism sees Christianity!


Quote

Some traditions in the Church were revealed before the incarnation, and others were revealed during the incarnation, and afterwards, but they were all revealed by the One True God, and they were handed down to us by His servants, who preserved them, and not by His enemies, the jews who corrupted and distorted them.

Yeah, and what about all the Jews who preserved them? Like Elijah, Moses, Ezekiel, The Theotokos, St. Paul, Oh yes...and all the Apostles, and Barnabas, probably the author of Hermas, and so and so forth. All Jews!




Quote
David received divine revelation, the psaloms are the core of many Orthodox prayers and liturgical services.

Was David a stenographer for God? God spoke THROUGH the prophets, but the human and thus Jewish aspect was in no wise downplayed. the whole concept of one God came from the Jews, and oh yes, most of our theology about the Messiah and the Trinity comes from the Jews as well. (or if you wish, God revealed these things THROUGH the Jews)


Quote
The Orthodox Divine Liturgy, is a representation of the entire life of Christ our God upon earth, this is why it doesn't matter if the celebrating priest is not a very good preacher, the Divine Liturgy teaches us by itself.

You know what, as nice as that sounds, and as many times I've tried to tell myself that is true, in reality, in the practical real world, the priest DOES matter. If you've ever been to a Liturgy with a priest who, lets say, there gift wasn't being a Liturgist, you'd know this is true. Definitely it doesn't change, but to claim the priest has NOTHING to do with it, is just not realistic.

Quote

The synagogues  like modern Roman Catholic Temples are a large hall for prayer, where people sit in front of the officiating elders (rabbim, cohanim, priests, bishops, etc.). The halls of prayers are patterned like a concert hall, a theatre, or an auditorium, and the officiants perform their services in a sort of stage, where a bima or altar is placed. Some have separate buildings or rooms, for religious studies, meetings, and other religious activities.

Funny, a lot of Orthodox congregations seem to think going to Liturgy in those same terms. No one ever participates, prays, sings, or does anything...they simply sit there and "listen to that wonderful choir".......


Quote
A synagogue can be any building, it does not have a specific architecture, and it doesn't have to have a specific orientation, for jews,  it's just a place where they gather to pray.

Yeah, and Jesus went to synagogues to pray.....what is your point? Technically the Liturgy can be celebrated in any building to, and actually a Church is technically "any building" that has simply been blessed/consecrated. The buildings are not the Church or the Temple, the people of God are the Church/Temple of God. This has to be true, because the early Christians celebrated Liturgies underground, in caves, and in other various places.


Also, Orthodox Churches are modeled after both synagogue services, AND the Temple service, and our Churches are often times close replicas of the Jewish Temple in architecture. It's simply a fact of history, which usually some Evangelicals freak out about (seeing as how they are against Liturgical worship) but is a strange argument coming from an Orthodox Christian.


Quote

There is no use of incense in the synagogues. Where did you see it? Where did you get that idea from?

Maybe he was thinking about the incense burned in the Jewish Temple. And that our worship was a unification of the synagogue and Temple services of the Jews. Yes, God revealed it, but He revealed to the Jews first, as Christ said, Salvation comes from the Jews.




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« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2009, 04:10:04 PM »

I have a question for Pravoslav09:

Are you trying to say the Church does not accept Jews as a race, or are you saying the Church does not accept Jews as a religion?

There is a huge difference between the two.
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« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2009, 04:26:05 PM »

The Church received Her liturgical practices from God. This divinely revealed correct way of worshiping and glorifying the One True God, was preserved by the people of God.

Right

Quote
Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God, it can be said they are one of the first protestant splinter groups, in the history of the One True Religion where God is correctly worshipped and glorifyed.

When did they do that?

Quote
Some traditions in the Church were revealed before the incarnation, and others were revealed during the incarnation, and afterwards, but they were all revealed by the One True God, and they were handed down to us by His servants, who preserved them, and not by His enemies, the jews who corrupted and distorted them.

By whom had they been preserved prior to Pentecost as they were only Jews, not Christians? Start the word Jew with a capital letter as spelling rules say.


Quote
The Orthodox Divine Liturgy, is a representation of the entire life of Christ our God upon earth, this is why it doesn't matter if the celebrating priest is not a very good preacher, the Divine Liturgy teaches us by itself.

In a form of modified Jewish service.


Quote
(a description of synagogal service)
There is no use of incense in the synagogues. Where did you see it? Where did you get that idea from?

DL is based on Jewish Temple service, not on synagogal prayers

Quote
I wouldn't be surprised to hear the shofar during some Roman Catholic services (joke), but hey, I've heard the electric guitar, the keyboard, bongos, guitar, cymbals, triangles, and other instruments during Roman Catholic masses, weddings, and other services, so I guess they have enough instruments, and they don't need the shofar.

Psalm 91, 1-5



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« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2009, 04:39:55 PM »

Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God, it can be say they are one of the first protestant splinter groups, in the history of the One True Religion where God is correctly worshipped and glorifyed

Er..This is simply delusional and despite claims of the poster to be "Traditionally Orthodox" is a classic example of  Heterodox thinking.

Those Christian groups outside the Church often emphasize their own personal comfort in realtion to  the doctrines and practices of the Church. If something about the  Church or it's history or it's practices makes the individual person uncomfortable, then it is the the Church that must change. The Church conforms to the person.

The actual Orthodox Church  is more demanding. You are called upon to alter yourself to conform to the Church, not the other way around. Clearly these few posters are looking through their own personal anti-semetic lens and reconstructing the Church and things like it's history as they want it, rather than how it is. They are bigoted against Jews, so the history of the Church must change to make them feel at home.

We often think of Left and Right ( liberal and conservative postions) on a straight line. In my opinion these designations should be thought of as on a circle. The folks who put themselves on the very outer edge of "conservative" really have much more in common with those only an inch away from them on the most Liberal place on the circle. Each plays fast and loose with well established facts and their own opinions likes and dislikes trump reality.


The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.
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« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2009, 04:44:02 PM »

The Church received Her liturgical practices from God. This divinely revealed correct way of worshiping and glorifying the One True God, was preserved by the people of God.

There is only one way to worship God?  And that would be in the Byzantine style liturgy?  

One wonders how this theory fits with WR.

Quote
Jews are a sect of rebels, who formed their unlawful breakaway faction, or sect, to continue their rebellion against God, it can be said they are one of the first protestant splinter groups, in the history of the One True Religion where God is correctly worshipped and glorifyed.

This is sheer historic nonsense.  The Jews were the Chosen People of the Old Testament.  They did not 'break away' from anything.  Peter has correctly pointed out that Christianity could be viewed in the same way as a faction or sect that left.  

Quote
Some traditions in the Church were revealed before the incarnation, and others were revealed during the incarnation, and afterwards, but they were all revealed by the One True God, and they were handed down to us by His servants, who preserved them, and not by His enemies, the jews who corrupted and distorted them.

Can you please give some examples of what you think these "traditions" are and how they were "corrupted"?  If  you are making an accusation, it is helpful to know some specifics.  How much have you really studied Jewish religious practices?

Quote
David received divine revelation, the psaloms are the core of many Orthodox prayers and liturgical services.

The Psalms are also poems that were composed/written by Human Beings.  Or are you claiming that God dictated them verbatim?

Quote
Now concerning synagogues, there are very similar to Roman Catholic modern temples, and the modern modifications of ancient catholic temples of Novus Ordo. (Some Roman Catholic Temples preserve the Orthodox Architecture).

Again, do you have examples and have you been a student of architecture?  Are you saying that there is one kind of particularly "sacred" building method?

Quote
The synagogues  like modern Roman Catholic Temples are a large hall for prayer, where people sit in front of the officiating elders (rabbim, cohanim, priests, bishops, etc.). The halls of prayers are patterned like a concert hall, a theatre, or an auditorium, and the officiants perform their services in a sort of stage, where a bima or altar is placed. Some have separate buildings or rooms, for religious studies, meetings, and other religious activities.

The same could be said of some EO churches that I have been in.  

Quote
A synagogue can be any building, it does not have a specific architecture, and it doesn't have to have a specific orientation, for jews,  it's just a place where they gather to pray. What's important for the jews is that there are 7 officiants to conduct a religious service, and a minimum of 10 assistants, for a prayer service.

The minyan of 10 adult males is what is needed ideally for a worship service.  They are not "assistants".  Where did you get the requirement for "7 officiants", please.  From what I know there is often a Rabbi and a Cantor.   Are you trying to say that the numbers 7 and 10 are somehow significant or of special meaning?

Quote
What is important in the synagogues is the place of the Aron k'desh. Everyone has to face the Aron, so they put it in a place, in order to make everyone face the Kotel, in Jerusalem. The Aron K'desh is where the scrolls of the Torah (jewish version of the old testament) are kept.

You wrote just above "and it doesn't have to have a specific orientation" and here you write that it *does* have an orientation so that people face Jerusalem.  This is a contradiction.

Quote
The only division in a jewish synagogue is the m'kitzah, and it only divides men and women's seating areas.

That's "mechitzah", it's a curtain and not all synagogues have them. Some EO churches have a "division" in that females and males are in different areas.  From the way you wrote above it read like you were saying that the raised platform/stage was a "division".  Why do you think this particular point is "important" please?


There is a lamp that is always lit in the synagogues, it's a simple lamp. The full menorrah, (7 arms chandelier) if lit only in special services, and it's never placed on the Bima, it's placed somewhere else in the prayer hall. The full menorrah is used mostly at homes.

Quote
The jewish services, as well as the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo masses are just the reciting of prayers, some singing, silent prayers, the reading of the Scripture, and officiants face the congregation. There are specific rituals corresponding to each group, of course, but the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo services are very jewish in spirit.

Since Peter has already remarked on this, I hope that my comments do not cause offense.  That description covers some of the EO services that I have attended, with the priest/bishop sometimes facing the congregation and sometimes doing things behind the iconostasis.  

I am beginning to wonder just what you mean by "jewish in spirit" beyond something you personally like or that you have decided is somehow "tainted".  Undecided

Quote
I wouldn't be surprised to hear the shofar during some Roman Catholic services (joke), but hey, I've heard the electric guitar, the keyboard, bongos, guitar, cymbals, triangles, and other instruments during Roman Catholic masses, weddings, and other services, so I guess they have enough instruments, and they don't need the shofar.

While the above seems to be in jest, we have it in the Psalms themselves references to praising God with the cymbals and stringed instruments:

Psalm 92
 "1 It is good to praise the LORD
       and make music to your name, O Most High,
 2 to proclaim your love in the morning
       and your faithfulness at night,
 3 to the music of the ten-stringed lyre
       and the melody of the harp.

Or in Psalm 150

1 Praise the LORD. [a]
       Praise God in his sanctuary;
       praise him in his mighty heavens.
 2 Praise him for his acts of power;
       praise him for his surpassing greatness.
 3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
       praise him with the harp and lyre,
 4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
       praise him with the strings and flute,
 5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
       praise him with resounding cymbals.
 6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
       Praise the LORD.

So you may hold the opinion that there's something wrong with using instruments in worship, but by you own statements God gave divine revelation to David to write the Psalms and there it is.

Quote
From your comments, I think you haven't been to a jewish religious service, and you don't know.

How many have you been to, where and when?  What branch of Judaism was it?  Was it a holiday, a Sabbath or a regular work-day prayer service?

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Before we talk about something, it's important to know what we're talking about, we are not children anymore, and we can't just say things. Think before you talk, please.

or write.  Good advice for all parties it would seem.

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« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2009, 04:45:43 PM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 
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« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2009, 04:58:52 PM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 

Its not any book-learning, it personal sources, some friends, some clergy.
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« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2009, 05:45:42 PM »


The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

This is as absurd as saying that Eastern Orthodox worship Icons, or the Bible, or the writings of St. Mark of Ephesus, more than we "worship" the Bible. BTW we don't worship the Bible, and neither do Jews. You need to read up on the difference between worship and veneration. Regardless, Orthodoxy has just as much non-canonical traditions and writings that we hold in high esteem, and yes, some people would suggest we sometimes hold in too high esteem, but that's their problem, not ours. The Church fathers are essentially our version of the Talmud.

As for the Jewish religion being "altered", which parts? Can you give a specific example? I'm sure for every specific example you can give, we can give you a pretty close parallel "alteration" within the Church as well.

You're sounding more and more like an Evangelical Protestant, who "has it on good knowledge that Orthodox Christians worship pictures, and think Mary gave birth to God the father"......complete and utterly ridiculous. Just as much nonsense as the early Roman accusations that "we have it on good word that these Christ followers sacrifice someones son and eat his flesh and blood...they are cannibals I tell you...."

I mean, even if all of what you guys are saying was true, what the heck difference does it make? Who are YOU to be judging the Jewish people and their religion? Isn't that up to God? The Church is the ark of SALVATION, not the gavel of judgment.

I actually have an honest question...and enquiry if you will....where did you come up with all this? These beliefs about the Jews I mean? Were you taught this growing up? By your parents? In the Church? By your priests? Or did you deduce all this on your own later in your life?

That is a serious question.....and I'd like a specific answer, not "that's the teaching of the Church", but "my priest, bishop, parents, uncles, schools or whatever, taught me this".....

I'm curious out of concern. Thank you.......








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« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2009, 05:48:44 PM »

So you've never attended a Jewish service?  

You're going by second hand "knowledge"?  Are these friends and clergy Jewish or formerly Jewish?  

How are they "authorities" one wonders, and do they perhaps have some bias or ax to grind or they got their information from a friend?

Just saying something doesn't make it true.  Why should people reading this thread accept you or Pravoslav09 as authorities on another faith about which you have written unsupported accusations, sweeping generalizations that are not accurate (the supposed names list) and contemptuous opinions.

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« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2009, 07:50:19 PM »

Dear antiderivative,

Very good question.

In this context by jewish and jews, I refer to today's jews, or judaism, which comes from the pernicious sect of God hating people who killed the prophets, distorted the scriptures, became His crucifiers, and are in constant war against the Law of God, the Church, and His servants.


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« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2009, 08:44:01 PM »

So for you it is only people who are religiously practicing Judaism?  Being of a Jewish ethnicity does not matter to you? 

Many of the Prophets were Jews themselves.  It's in the Old Testament.

What examples can you give of how the Scriptures have been "distorted"?  Do you read Hebrew or Aramaic? 

How many Jews do you know personally?  How do you know that they "hate God"?   

As to "being at war", do you deny that people who claimed to be Christian attacked and were "at war" with Jewish people over the centuries, sometimes in EO countries? 



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« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2009, 08:55:29 PM »

In this context by jewish and jews, I refer to today's jews, or judaism, which comes from the pernicious sect of God hating people who killed the prophets, distorted the scriptures, became His crucifiers, and are in constant war against the Law of God, the Church, and His servants.
Do you have an opinion one way or another on anti-semitism?
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« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2009, 12:26:18 AM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 

Its not any book-learning, it personal sources, some friends, some clergy.

You should let your friends know that like Christianity, Judaism is not monolithic but contains several different sects and modes of Worship.

For example the Karaites don't make the same assumptions or use the Rabbinical system of teaching.   
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« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2009, 01:08:26 AM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 

Its not any book-learning, it personal sources, some friends, some clergy.

You should let your friends know that like Christianity, Judaism is not monolithic but contains several different sects and modes of Worship.

For example the Karaites don't make the same assumptions or use the Rabbinical system of teaching.   

neither the Frankists, Sabbetai Tzvi followers (Ataturk was from this system) and others.

I am only talking about Normative Judaism 
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« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2009, 01:15:46 AM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 

Its not any book-learning, it personal sources, some friends, some clergy.

You should let your friends know that like Christianity, Judaism is not monolithic but contains several different sects and modes of Worship.

For example the Karaites don't make the same assumptions or use the Rabbinical system of teaching.   

neither the Frankists, Sabbetai Tzvi followers (Ataturk was from this system) and others.

I am only talking about Normative Judaism 

Interesting how you busy yourself to tell Jews what they must believe, so you can condemn them.
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« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2009, 02:31:16 AM »

Before we talk about something, it's important to know what we're talking about, we are not children anymore, and we can't just say things. Think before you talk, please.
It's also important to know what the other person is talking about.  For instance, I made it very clear I wasn't talking about modern synagogue practices.

So you don't buy into the recognition that whatever liturgical practices the Orthodox Church has inherited from the Jews were revealed directly by the pre-incarnate Christ to Moses on Mount Sinai, revealed as being the pattern of worship in the heavenly realm?

Read the above again and tell me where I say anything about the modern synagogue.  You won't find it in there, because it isn't there.  What is there is my discussion of practices that God revealed to Moses on Mt. Sinai and which the Jews preserved in their Tabernacle and later in their Temple.
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« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2009, 02:45:28 AM »

Peter has correctly pointed out that Christianity could be viewed in the same way as a faction or sect that left.  

...

Since Peter has already remarked on this, I hope that my comments do not cause offense.
Are you talking about moi? Huh  I can't take credit for what you're attributing to me. Wink
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« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2009, 03:36:53 AM »

I have moved my debate with Irish Hermit to this thread in Faith Issues:

The Pre-Incarnate Christ - Heresy?
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« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2009, 09:02:42 AM »

Are you talking about moi? Huh  I can't take credit for what you're attributing to me. Wink

I beg your pardon, Peter.  It was NorthernPines post that I was thinking of but since you were replying to Pravoslav09 as well there was a umm "short circuit" in my typing...  I'm very sorry for the mistake.

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« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2009, 09:43:42 AM »

Regarding Pravoslav09 and sdcheung,

In this and other threads,both of these posters have consistently held on to their outrageous positions in spite of others' complete refutation of them. They seem to be immune to facts, logic, irony, satire or Christian rebuke. Of course they have to right to say anything that they please. But proverbs may be most applicable to these two posters:

Proverbs 15:14 "The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, But the mouth of fools feeds on foolishness."

Proverbs 16:22 "Understanding is a wellspring of life to him who has it. But the correction of fools is folly."
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« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2009, 10:17:47 AM »


In this context by jewish and jews, I refer to today's jews, or judaism, which comes from the pernicious sect of God hating people who killed the prophets, distorted the scriptures, became His crucifiers, and are in constant war against the Law of God, the Church, and His servants.


I still cannot tell exactly "who" are the Jews you're refering to. Judaism and it's self understanding is a complex issue....one can be a Jew and be an atheist, and one can be not ethnically Jewish, and yet undergo conversion and be a full fledged 100% Jew from that moment forward to the point of being considered ethnically Jewish, even if there is no Jewish DNA in the person. (we see this in the Old Testament) And one can be a Christian and be ethnically Jewish, but in the eyes of Judaism even a Jew who converts to Christianity is still a Jew. So I'm still a bit confused....sorry....

So it's still hard to tell who you are refering to, exactly,  which seems to be the case with almost every person in history who has ever taken the position you and others on here are taking. There are no real specifics, so "the Jews" becomes a blanket statement meaning "all" Jews everywhere. If you mean the religion of Judaism, do you take the same stance with all religions? You're "in" and everyone else  is "out" and so all other people "hate God"?
 
And then that brings us to you saying that Jews are "God hating" people? By this you mean "the ones who killed the prophets" or the Jews today? I'm confused. I think you mean the ancient Jews, but of course they all weren't "God haters", as many remained faithful, including the prophets themselves.

If you mean the one's that "killed the prophets", do you know their names? Who are they so we too can know and not confuse a select few people and Israeli kings from 3000 years ago, with the Jews today.

If you mean "today's" Jews, unfortunately for you, no Jew today was alive 2000 years ago, so they could not have possibly have crucified Jesus. And if they were alive, wow....how come I've never seen these 2000 year old people on TV. That's amazing.

Lastly, you do realize that IF the Jews had NOT "crucified Christ", (although that was actually the Romans, but for argument's sake I'll take you're view) and had the entire Jewish nation accepted Him as their Messiah, you and I and every other Gentile would have been LOST for all eternity. The Greeks, Romans, Irish, Russians, Africans, Indians, Serbians, Romanians, and every other Gentile in the world would have been lost without Christ's crucifixion.....did you ever think that perhaps this was part of God's plan for crying out loud?





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« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2009, 03:45:55 PM »

The jews worship the talmud and zohar more than the tanakh, the whole "jewish" religion has been altered.

Do you have any sources to back up your own personal assertion?  Huh  Have you attended any Jewish services? 

Its not any book-learning, it personal sources, some friends, some clergy.

You should let your friends know that like Christianity, Judaism is not monolithic but contains several different sects and modes of Worship.

For example the Karaites don't make the same assumptions or use the Rabbinical system of teaching.   

neither the Frankists, Sabbetai Tzvi followers (Ataturk was from this system) and others.

I am only talking about Normative Judaism 

Perhaps it's time for you to find a new Hobby
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« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2009, 09:33:26 PM »

sdcheung: Ataturk was a jew?HuhHuh

And here, silly me, all this time I thought he was a Turkish Muslim! With a name like "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk".

(Smacking forehead)
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« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2009, 09:42:28 PM »

sdcheung: Ataturk was a jew?HuhHuh

And here, silly me, all this time I thought he was a Turkish Muslim! With a name like "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk".

(Smacking forehead)

He was a Turkish speaking Albanian Muslim born in Greece.
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« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2009, 10:24:20 PM »

Dear NorthernPines

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity. According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath. Will there anyone be judged for crimes against humanity? Will the soviet holocaust receive so much dissemination? Will antichristianity be condemned? Will survivors and other victims receive compensation, and retributive justice? Will the jews be forced to apologize and be closely monitored so that this massacre is never repeated? Will True Orthodox Christians become the "untouchables" and the slightest criticism towards them will be considered as antichristianity, racism, hate propaganda, intolerance and the like? Will the True Russian Orthodox Christians have so much power as to boss other religions round, and force them to remove what they don't like labeling it as antichristianity? ........


But specifically, in this thread, I was talking about the traditions of today's religious jews, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church.


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« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2009, 10:39:49 PM »

It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity. According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath.
This sounds like a twist on history formulated for the purpose of advancing anti-Semitism.  Do you have any sources to back up these claims?
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« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2009, 10:50:07 PM »

Dear NorthernPines

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity. According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath. Will there anyone be judged for crimes against humanity? Will the soviet holocaust receive so much dissemination? Will antichristianity be condemned? Will survivors and other victims receive compensation, and retributive justice? Will the jews be forced to apologize and be closely monitored so that this massacre is never repeated? Will True Orthodox Christians become the "untouchables" and the slightest criticism towards them will be considered as antichristianity, racism, hate propaganda, intolerance and the like? Will the True Russian Orthodox Christians have so much power as to boss other religions round, and force them to remove what they don't like labeling it as antichristianity? ........


But specifically, in this thread, I was talking about the traditions of today's religious jews, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church.

No, it is about traditions you project on who you define as a religious jews (when not imagining them out of whole cloth) which you allege the Vatican  has adopted.

And you still have not explained why you are around Jews and the Vatican at worship to know what they are doing, enough to be an expert on their liturgics.

One who spreads lies can't complain about being called out as a liar.
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« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2009, 11:51:39 PM »

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

So for you "Jewish" is a genetic condition?  People who may have had Jewish ancestors but are not practicing Jews themselves are still "Jewish"?  What of people who are not of that ethnicity but convert to Judaism?  What of people who are now Christian but who had some ancestor who was Jewish?  How far back in a person's lineage does it go, if this is the case, please?

Quote
It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity.

Will you please give some sources and numbers?  Also, Stalin was not Jewish and he is responsible for much of the evil of the mid-20th  century in Russia, was he not?

Quote
According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

Will you please give some of these sources also?  Are they in English?  Also, when you write that this happened in Japan, you are bringing up a country whose history is a particular interest of mine as may be seen in various threads here on the forum. With the Japanese occupations in Korea, Manchuria and parts of Siberia before and during WWII, I have some knowledge of these areas as well.   To what are you referring to with regards to killing of EO in Japan and China?  What dates or locations are you thinking of, please? Japan's interactions with Russia date to the late 19th century and of course there is the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05.  But that is, of course, before the Revolution.

Quote
It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide

Done by the Soviets against such groups as the Ukrainians (the "Holodomor" famine) the "White Russians" from 1917 to 1923, people who did not support the Communist regime among others?  These are not unknown or hidden bits of history.  The Soviet government also killed persons of Jewish extraction who did not support them, such as Osip Mandelstam.  Stalin himself is reported to have been anti-Semitic (see Stalin's Secret War by the British writer Nikolai Tolstoy).  There's plenty more death and suppression from the Soviet rulers directed at many different groups.

Quote
, and the role of atheistic jews in it

Or of atheistic non-Jews such as Stalin and other Soviet officials?


Quote
But specifically, in this thread, I was talking about the traditions of today's religious jews, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church.

Which frankly don't appear to be true according to postings by RC members of the forum.  Singing a song that has an origin in Hebrew is not practicing a "Jewish tradition" any more then if I were to sing an Russian song or an EO hymn would have me "practicing an EO tradition".  At least I wouldn't be somehow becoming Russian or EO by doing so.   Your statement about 10 "assistants" doesn't apply since there doesn't seem to be any requirement for that many acolytes in an RC service, nor "7" officiants. (I know that sometimes EO services have a number of altar boys taking turns in helping. If there are 10 of them does that make the EO service follow a "Jewish tradition"?  I don't think so.) You have not established that these numbers have any connection to either Religion. 

You seem to be making accusations of things that you don't like against other people of whom you don't approve or like.

 Undecided

Ebor



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« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2009, 01:59:31 AM »

Who is the moderator of this section?

Right! It's not Peter The Aleut.

How about respecting the moderator of this section Peter?

There's a lot of room for improvement in your own work, Why do you have to meddle in the job of others?

Why allure others to your own sections?

Are you a schadenfreuder? A control freak? 

Did the moderator ask for help? If so, help, instead of ruining the job of others.

As a way of protesting and standing up against your abuses, I will not participate in the thread you started about the union between catholics and world orthodoxy. I'll start my own when I really want to discuss that specific subject. Thnx, but no thnx.



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« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2009, 02:14:30 AM »

This sounds like a twist on history formulated for the purpose of advancing anti-Semitism.  Do you have any sources to back up these claims?

Oh no you don't, not in here PeterTheAleut. I will start a thread on this, in the politics forum, there we can talk.

Nice try! But you gotta do better than that.

And as you say, it's nothing personal  Cheesy
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« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2009, 02:17:24 AM »

Who is the moderator of this section?

Right! It's not Peter The Aleut.

How about respecting the moderator of this section Peter?

There's a lot of room for improvement in your own work, Why do you have to meddle in the job of others?

Why allure others to your own sections?

Are you a schadenfreuder? A control freak? 

Did the moderator ask for help? If so, help, instead of ruining the job of others.

As a way of protesting and standing up against your abuses, I will not participate in the thread you started about the union between catholics and world orthodoxy. I'll start my own when I really want to discuss that specific subject. Thnx, but no thnx.




You have the "Report to Moderator" function available to you.  Use it if you want to complain about me.
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« Reply #91 on: June 21, 2009, 10:34:45 AM »

I will start a thread on this, in the politics forum, there we can talk.

Will you answer my question on your statement of EO being killed in Japan and China here in this thread or in another public forum thread?  That is not political but a matter of historical information regarding actions taken in those two countries.  I am seriously interested in finding out since it touches on Asian affairs which, as other posters can attest, is something that I have a deep interest in.

Thank you in advance.

Ebor
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« Reply #92 on: June 21, 2009, 12:57:27 PM »

Dear NorthernPines

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

Thanks for the clarification!


Quote
It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution,

I think it's more accurate to say that there were secular Jews involved, but they certainly weren't the only ones. I'd rather not go into the politics of Russia or the Soviets but, I don't think it's fair to say Jews were the ONLY people involved, many Russians, and probably mostly Russians were responsible for the Revolution. The Russian Empire had become corrupt and brutal, not to mention complete in love with "the world"....St. Theophan wrote about the state of 'Holy Russia' a few times in his letters and he didn't seem to be all that impressed with it. (though it was never something he was over concerned about either)

But I'll concede, that yes, some secular Jews were involved. Of course, so were secular Russians, so I don't really see the point. Russians were responsible for brutal treatment of the Alaskan Natives (according to St. Herman)....every ethnic group has done some horrible things in history, Greeks, Serbians, Poles, Italians, Irish, Arabs...no one is clean, and all have blood on their hands as an ethnic group. And yet, as Scripture says, the children shall not pay for the sins of the father. So just because England was brutal and cruel to Ireland at some time in the past, doesn't mean I have ANY bad feelings against English people. I frankly do not care because we're all part of the single family of humanity and all are fallen.




Quote

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath. Will there anyone be judged for crimes against humanity? Will the soviet holocaust receive so much dissemination? Will antichristianity be condemned? Will survivors and other victims receive compensation, and retributive justice? Will the jews be forced to apologize and be closely monitored so that this massacre is never repeated? Will True Orthodox Christians become the "untouchables" and the slightest criticism towards them will be considered as antichristianity, racism, hate propaganda, intolerance and the like?

The only sense I can agree with you here on, is yes, I also feel as though we are a bit to sensitive when it comes to Israel. Any criticism against Israel is deemed "racist" and anti semitic....this is wrong, but that is the secular nation of Israel. Not "the Jews"...anymore than the "evil Empire" made Russians "evil"...many people grew up in the 40's and 50's being taught that Russians were evil and wanted to take over the world......now we know Russians are just like everyone else, including the Jews. They are just people trying to live the best they can and know how. One cannot blame the Jews for Communism anymore than one can blame the Greeks for the cruelty of the Byzantine Empire. Yes, both are bad things, atheistic domination, and religious Empires run amok, but the people involved are long dead. I cannot, as a Christian hold people living today responsible for something that happened 100 yrs ago, or 1000 yrs ago.

It's time for us to realize that we are all one race, the human race......and tribal and religious warfare must end.





Quote
Will the True Russian Orthodox Christians have so much power as to boss other religions round, and force them to remove what they don't like labeling it as antichristianity? ........

Well, Russian Orthodox Christians did get to boss everyone around for nearly 1000 years. And to me that wasn't right either. Yet I don't hold the Russian people responsible for some of the more cruel Tsars that ruled Russia at various times. I don't hold Greeks responsible collectively as a  "people" for Iconoclasm, because an equal amount of Greeks were Iconodules. Do you see that people are people; good ones and bad ones, across all ethnic identities? What makes a person bad is not their ethnic identity but they way they LIVE as individuals. What makes nations bad is they way they act collectively.....Nazi Germany was bad because of the way it acted, not because of the fact that they were "Germans". What makes Israel the nation "bad" at times is not the fact that they are Jews, but the fact that the government wants power. But that's not the people. The people, from what I've been told and heard, on the ground, can still get along, until those in power butt in and take control. There are a select few people of ALL ethnicitiesthat desire power above all else, but it doesn't make them all bad. Even those that use religion (and I consider "devout" atheism like Stalin's a religion) as an excuse to control people, like Stalin are bad not because of the religion per se (I know of atheists who wouldn't hurt a fly) but because they want power.

Have you ever seen or read Lord of the Rings? IMO it totally gets this issue right. If you've never seen the movies, or if you've never thought of the underlying Christian themes, I suggest you read about them, then watch the movies again.


I hope and pray you can see that people are just people, whether Jews, Muslim's Arabs, Greeks, Russians, Christians, Hindus whatever......it makes no difference, Christ died for them all, including you and me.

In Peace,

NP



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« Reply #93 on: June 21, 2009, 05:41:41 PM »

Dear NorthernPines

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity. According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath. Will there anyone be judged for crimes against humanity? Will the soviet holocaust receive so much dissemination? Will antichristianity be condemned? Will survivors and other victims receive compensation, and retributive justice? Will the jews be forced to apologize and be closely monitored so that this massacre is never repeated? Will True Orthodox Christians become the "untouchables" and the slightest criticism towards them will be considered as antichristianity, racism, hate propaganda, intolerance and the like? Will the True Russian Orthodox Christians have so much power as to boss other religions round, and force them to remove what they don't like labeling it as antichristianity? ........


But specifically, in this thread, I was talking about the traditions of today's religious jews, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church.




Utter and complete non-sense.

It was in fact Stalin that precipitated the Russian Holocaust against the Church with zeal . He was born Orthodox if I am not mistaken and he certainly was not Jewish.

Various anti-semites would have yo believe Lenin was a Jew. Another fabrication. His maternal Grandfather may have been Jewish ( no one is totally sure). He and his parents were Baptised Christians.

The only actual Jew at the top of the leadership was Trotsky who was himself persecuted by Stalin, thrown out of the country and eventally murdered by an agent of Stalin in Mexico.

 
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« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2009, 05:46:05 PM »

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

So for you "Jewish" is a genetic condition?  People who may have had Jewish ancestors but are not practicing Jews themselves are still "Jewish"?  What of people who are not of that ethnicity but convert to Judaism?  What of people who are now Christian but who had some ancestor who was Jewish?  How far back in a person's lineage does it go, if this is the case, please?

Quote
It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution, took over the Russian Empire, and conducted the largest, most cruel, and most prolonged genocidical holocaust in the history of humanity.

Will you please give some sources and numbers?  Also, Stalin was not Jewish and he is responsible for much of the evil of the mid-20th  century in Russia, was he not?

Quote
According to some sources, the number of Russian Orthodox Christians killed by the soviet theomachist jews, in the course of more than 70 years, all over the Soviet Union, China, Japan, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, could be 100 million.

Will you please give some of these sources also?  Are they in English?  Also, when you write that this happened in Japan, you are bringing up a country whose history is a particular interest of mine as may be seen in various threads here on the forum. With the Japanese occupations in Korea, Manchuria and parts of Siberia before and during WWII, I have some knowledge of these areas as well.   To what are you referring to with regards to killing of EO in Japan and China?  What dates or locations are you thinking of, please? Japan's interactions with Russia date to the late 19th century and of course there is the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05.  But that is, of course, before the Revolution.

Quote
It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide

Done by the Soviets against such groups as the Ukrainians (the "Holodomor" famine) the "White Russians" from 1917 to 1923, people who did not support the Communist regime among others?  These are not unknown or hidden bits of history.  The Soviet government also killed persons of Jewish extraction who did not support them, such as Osip Mandelstam.  Stalin himself is reported to have been anti-Semitic (see Stalin's Secret War by the British writer Nikolai Tolstoy).  There's plenty more death and suppression from the Soviet rulers directed at many different groups.

Quote
, and the role of atheistic jews in it

Or of atheistic non-Jews such as Stalin and other Soviet officials?


Quote
But specifically, in this thread, I was talking about the traditions of today's religious jews, adopted by the Roman Catholic Church.

Which frankly don't appear to be true according to postings by RC members of the forum.  Singing a song that has an origin in Hebrew is not practicing a "Jewish tradition" any more then if I were to sing an Russian song or an EO hymn would have me "practicing an EO tradition".  At least I wouldn't be somehow becoming Russian or EO by doing so.   Your statement about 10 "assistants" doesn't apply since there doesn't seem to be any requirement for that many acolytes in an RC service, nor "7" officiants. (I know that sometimes EO services have a number of altar boys taking turns in helping. If there are 10 of them does that make the EO service follow a "Jewish tradition"?  I don't think so.) You have not established that these numbers have any connection to either Religion. 

You seem to be making accusations of things that you don't like against other people of whom you don't approve or like.

 Undecided

Ebor





You need to go to the various racial formulations Nazi Germany used to determine if you are Jewish. .. Do we Orthodox really want to be is such company??
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« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2009, 06:01:29 PM »

I just looked it up. When he was very young, Stalin was enrolled in the Tiflis Theological Seminary.
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« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2009, 06:07:33 PM »


Various anti-semites would have yo believe Lenin was a Jew. Another fabrication. His maternal Grandfather may have been Jewish ( no one is totally sure). He and his parents were Baptised Christians.

The only actual Jew at the top of the leadership was Trotsky who was himself persecuted by Stalin, thrown out of the country and eventally murdered by an agent of Stalin in Mexico.

 

Marc, please try to be objective...

I am not an anti-Semite at all. Let me just tell you that several of my real good lifelong friends are Jewish and several friends of my parents, whom I treated and continue to treat literally as my "uncles" and "aunts," were/are Jewish.

But to say what you said above is an untruth. In 1917-1939, Jews absolutely dominated in all governmental offices of the former USSR. Here is but a short list of names:

Zinoviev (Apfelbaum) - the Chairman of the Komintern ("Communist International" - technically a higher position in the Communist hierarchy than Lenin's);

Kamenev (Rosenfeld) - the Chairman of the city of Moscow Communist Party organization, the Chairman of the VSNKh (the office that supervised all industry), a Politburo member;

Yaroslavsky (Gubelman) - the head of the Leage of Militant Atheists (the organization that supervised the demise of churches, the killings of priests, etc.);

Yagoda (Yehuda) - the chief of the NKVD (People's Comissariat of Internal Affairs, actually the secret police responsible of murder of millions of innocent people, unbelievable cruelties, torture, organizing executions of millions of peasants by artificial famine, etc.);

Kaganovich - a powerful Politburo member who held many positions, including the People's Comissar of Heavy Industry, the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, the Minister of Education of the USSR (among others) (actually an obedient secretary and lackey of Stalin who was notorious for his cruelty);

Frinovsky, Berman, and several others whose last names I do not recall right now, but who all had Jewish names - the chief executive officers of GULAG;

Litvinov (Vallach) - a Lithuanian Jew who had trouble speaking grammatical Russian, served as the People's Comissar of Foreign Affairs...

... and hundreds of others.

I will dig some hard numbers for you if you like.

Now. I am not suppporting the claims of the OP and I am not really even interested in tracing Jewish traits in Catholicism or elewhere. But I can't stand it when facts are profoundly distorted for some sort of PC.
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« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2009, 06:36:26 PM »

Arguing over whether Jews were involved at top levels of the early Bolshevik government is pointless.

By the late Soviet era, they were harrassed and persecuted by the Soviet authorities. That's why they took every opportunity to leave the Soviet Union and flee to Israel.

So even some of them were involved in the establishment of the Soviet state, the irrefutable fact is, the Soviet state turned on them too.
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« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2009, 06:49:34 PM »

Arguing over whether Jews were involved at top levels of the early Bolshevik government is pointless.

By the late Soviet era, they were harrassed and persecuted by the Soviet authorities. That's why they took every opportunity to leave the Soviet Union and flee to Israel.

So even some of them were involved in the establishment of the Soviet state, the irrefutable fact is, the Soviet state turned on them too.

I would agree with the above, except the word "some."

Very many, very many of them were "involved in the establishment of the Soviet state." The sad fact remains, they actually created the Soviet state. Without them it would not exist. Yes, later it devoured many of them, but it would be a big lie to whitewash them and to say that only "some" of them "collaborated" with Communists or something like that. Or, as Marc wrote above, that "only Trotsky was a real Jew in the Communist government, and even he was murdered by Stalin because he was a Jew." That's a classical PC, a lie, a complete twisting of the facts, and, as such, a thing that does not help anything.
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« Reply #99 on: June 21, 2009, 08:02:13 PM »

One wonders why the Russian gentiles so easily allowed the soviets to take over? It seems to be a constant circular power struggle in these slavic lands. Jews are oppressed, but eventually manage to rise to the top again. Then the gentiles lash out at the Jews in resentment, killing many. Then the cycle repeats itself-seemingly endlessly. One would think there'd be a less violent, more balanced way of distributing the power, etc.

I was recently thinking about the massacre which took place in 1941, at Babi Yar, in Kiev. Have been there and gazed pensively into the ravine.  Over 33,000 Jews were ruthlessly murdered in two days, together with some Roma, Orthodox priests, Ukrainian nationalists etc. But it seems the Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis at Babi Yar. And many Ukrainians informed on the Jews too. This seems so hard for me to comprehend. How and why would people inform on their fellow countrymen-regardless of religion?  Huh Also, the chief synagogue in Kiev was turned into a puppet theatre during the Soviet Regime.

I struggle to understand this complex situation...
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« Reply #100 on: June 21, 2009, 08:58:56 PM »

One wonders why the Russian gentiles so easily allowed the soviets to take over? It seems to be a constant circular power struggle in these slavic lands. Jews are oppressed, but eventually manage to rise to the top again. Then the gentiles lash out at the Jews in resentment, killing many. Then the cycle repeats itself-seemingly endlessly. One would think there'd be a less violent, more balanced way of distributing the power, etc.

I was recently thinking about the massacre which took place in 1941, at Babi Yar, in Kiev. Have been there and gazed pensively into the ravine.  Over 33,000 Jews were ruthlessly murdered in two days, together with some Roma, Orthodox priests, Ukrainian nationalists etc. But it seems the Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis at Babi Yar. And many Ukrainians informed on the Jews too. This seems so hard for me to comprehend. How and why would people inform on their fellow countrymen-regardless of religion?  Huh Also, the chief synagogue in Kiev was turned into a puppet theatre during the Soviet Regime.

I struggle to understand this complex situation...

Rosehip, I understand your struggle...

My own great-grandmother, who was half-Russian (from a very aristocratic, noble family) and half-Ukrainian, and a widow of a guy who was 100% Greek, survived the German occupation of Kyiv, living in her room in the "communal" apartment on the Saksagans'koho Street, just a few blocks from the Tolstoy Square and the Shevchenko Boulevard downtown. Her daughter (my maternal grandmother) and her granddaugher (my mother, who was only 11 when the war began) - escaped to the Omsk oblast, where my maternal grandma had some relatives, -  but my great-grandmother most stubbornly refused to leave Kyiv, saying that the Germans will not last long anyway.

A number of her neighbors in that "communal apartment" were Jews. When the Germans announced that all Jews of Kyiv must take all their belongings and move to the designated places to be "evacuated," these residents of my great-grandma's apartment did exactly what was asked of them to do. No one had any doubts that they would be transported to some place where the life would be better for them (and, as some "Aryans" sarcastically said, they would not any longer mess with their neighbours' lives). Many older Jews recalled how Germans who occupied Kyiv in 1918 were kind to them and how the Germans were generally a "civilized, kind, intelligent people." There were rumors that the Jews would be transported to Germany (""c'mon, everybody knows that these Germans just love Jews!"), or to some exotic land (Madagascar?), etc.

I later read in some non-Soviet sources that, actually, some number of Jews who were Kyiv residents were, in fact, made, forced, to board trains and leave Kyiv, no one knows to what destination.

In the Babyn Yar (Russ. Babiy Yar), indeed, the Germans organized some sort of a camp for various prisoners, and a lot of them were shot there with the help of machine guns. And indeed, just like you wrote, those who were executed included some members of the Ukrainian nationalist underground (the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya," UPA), as well as some Communists captured by the German Army, and also, probably, common criminals, or psychiatric patients whom the Nazis regarded as not worth living). To what extent the testimonies that "all Jews were driven to the Babyn Yar and shot there" are true - I really do not know, because I have read the most conflicting, the most outrageously contradicting testimonies on this issue.

What I have heard from my great-grandma, however, was that neither she nor anyone she knew in Kyiv "collaborated" with the Nazis in any way, "telling" them on Jews. In the late 1944, when Kyiv was re-captured by the Soviet Army, some of her former Jewish - VERY Jewish - neighbors who disappeared in 1941 - Sara Mikhailovna Peisakhovich, Sofia Mikhailovna (actually Moiseevna) Bogatyrskaya, and a few others - suddenly re-appeared, alive and well, and occupied their rooms in her Saksagans'koho Street "communal" apartment.

Now, I am not writing all this to say that Jews were not harmed at all by the Nazis. Of course they were! And of course, most definitely, many of them were captured, humiliated, tortured, massacred by the Nazis.

But so were many non-Jews.

And yet, the mere fact that there were many, many, many, MANY non-Jewish people who were massacred by the Nazis in the lands that the German Army occupied in te 1940-s, is seldom, if ever, even mentioned.

And the fact that more Ukrainian peasants were killed by the artificial starvation of 1932-33 organized by Lazar Kaganovich and Henrich Yagoda (Yehuda) than Jews killed during the "Holocaust," remains a TABOO. It can NEVER be mentioned, wrote about, appreciated, wept about.

This makes me suspect that in the eyes of the world, to a very large extent "directed" by Zionist Jews, my people, Ukrainians - as well as many other peoples - are LESS important, less valuable, less HUMAN than the "God's chosen people."

But to Northen Americans, none of this matters...
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« Reply #101 on: June 21, 2009, 09:28:50 PM »

Dear Ebor,

I am not ignoring your question, I just need time to collect, translate, summarize and process the information, to start a new thread on the New Martyrs and Confessors of the XX century. It's quite an extensive topic, and it can go out of hand if I don't present it in the right way.

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« Reply #102 on: June 21, 2009, 10:28:08 PM »

Heorhij,
Thank you for sharing your interesting accounts of what took place in Kyiv! I am not trying to minimize Holodomor. It's all tragic and horrible and lamentable. I'm just trying to understand all of this, and I'm very thankful for you sharing the personal experiences of you family. It helps me to piece together a picture of what may have taken place. I have spoken to many Ukrainians about these subjects and most of them would say the same as you've said.
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« Reply #103 on: June 21, 2009, 10:39:04 PM »

Now, I am not writing all this to say that Jews were not harmed at all by the Nazis. Of course they were! And of course, most definitely, many of them were captured, humiliated, tortured, massacred by the Nazis.

But so were many non-Jews.

And yet, the mere fact that there were many, many, many, MANY non-Jewish people who were massacred by the Nazis in the lands that the German Army occupied in te 1940-s, is seldom, if ever, even mentioned.

Heorhij, perhaps you have not come across accounts of the many other groups of people whom the Nazis targeted, but I can assure you that they are written about and remembered.  At the Holocaust Museum in D.C. they are certainly not forgotten or pushed under the rug. Here is an overview page from that website on that subject http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005149  

I am very aware of the early years of the regime's "removal" of other humans with the programs to eliminate the chronically ill and people with disabilities including Down Syndrome, such as our youngest son has.  They were called "Life unworthy of life" and "useless eaters".  

Artists and intellectuals who did not go along with the party line were arrested and dealt with harshly.  

German people who disagreed with the Nazi political programs were also arrested, imprisoned and often killed.  Have you ever heard of "The White Rose"?  They were a group of students and instructors who printed pamphlets against the Nazis.  They were eventually caught and several were executed with a guillotine.
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/whiterose.html

No one can read all the books and stories about something so immense, maybe, but those whom an evil power worked to remove are not forgotten or ignored.

Quote
And the fact that more Ukrainian peasants were killed by the artificial starvation of 1932-33 organized by Lazar Kaganovich and Henrich Yagoda (Yehuda) than Jews killed during the "Holocaust," remains a TABOO. It can NEVER be mentioned, wrote about, appreciated, wept about.

Yet I know of it and I am not Ukrainian.  Other people know and the history sometimes takes time to become known. But that's one of the good things about the Internet.  While there's a lot of spam and junk out there, it's also a good way for people who otherwise might never learn of a thing because it happened on the other side of the world, or to people of a different culture or because it was in books that they would never have come to their town.  It's a way to share knowledge and truth along with ads and flashy pictures.

Some of my generations in the past relatives were starved and driven from their homes to walk the "Trail of Tears" out to Oklahoma as members of the Cherokee.  For a long time only the tribe and a few others really remembered it. But it is not forgotten and it was part of a PBS series a while back.  

People can learn, but they're not ignoring or denying that something happened if they just haven't heard of it.


Quote
This makes me suspect that in the eyes of the world, to a very large extent "directed" by Zionist Jews, my people, Ukrainians - as well as many other peoples - are LESS important, less valuable, less HUMAN than the "God's chosen people."

Maybe some of them were shaped by centuries of being treated as less valuable, less Human, then Christians.  I don't know.  But if you kick anyone long enough, it might be hard for them to react with compassion or charity.

Quote
But to Northen Americans, none of this matters...

Heorhij, it does matter.  The Holodomor was a horrific, evil work that killed millions and millions. But to lump all Northern Americans like this seems a bit unfair.  When you were living back in your home country, did you know about the Cherokee or the mistreatment of the Australian native peoples or the burakumin in Japan?  Human Beings have limits in time, energy, mental ability and resources.  

This is important to you and I apologize for anything that I have written that might upset you.  

Ebor
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« Reply #104 on: June 21, 2009, 10:46:09 PM »


Various anti-semites would have yo believe Lenin was a Jew. Another fabrication. His maternal Grandfather may have been Jewish ( no one is totally sure). He and his parents were Baptised Christians.

The only actual Jew at the top of the leadership was Trotsky who was himself persecuted by Stalin, thrown out of the country and eventally murdered by an agent of Stalin in Mexico.

 

Marc, please try to be objective...

I am not an anti-Semite at all. Let me just tell you that several of my real good lifelong friends are Jewish and several friends of my parents, whom I treated and continue to treat literally as my "uncles" and "aunts," were/are Jewish.

But to say what you said above is an untruth. In 1917-1939, Jews absolutely dominated in all governmental offices of the former USSR. Here is but a short list of names:

Zinoviev (Apfelbaum) - the Chairman of the Komintern ("Communist International" - technically a higher position in the Communist hierarchy than Lenin's);

Kamenev (Rosenfeld) - the Chairman of the city of Moscow Communist Party organization, the Chairman of the VSNKh (the office that supervised all industry), a Politburo member;

Yaroslavsky (Gubelman) - the head of the Leage of Militant Atheists (the organization that supervised the demise of churches, the killings of priests, etc.);

Yagoda (Yehuda) - the chief of the NKVD (People's Comissariat of Internal Affairs, actually the secret police responsible of murder of millions of innocent people, unbelievable cruelties, torture, organizing executions of millions of peasants by artificial famine, etc.);

Kaganovich - a powerful Politburo member who held many positions, including the People's Comissar of Heavy Industry, the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, the Minister of Education of the USSR (among others) (actually an obedient secretary and lackey of Stalin who was notorious for his cruelty);

Frinovsky, Berman, and several others whose last names I do not recall right now, but who all had Jewish names - the chief executive officers of GULAG;

Litvinov (Vallach) - a Lithuanian Jew who had trouble speaking grammatical Russian, served as the People's Comissar of Foreign Affairs...

... and hundreds of others.

I will dig some hard numbers for you if you like.

Now. I am not suppporting the claims of the OP and I am not really even interested in tracing Jewish traits in Catholicism or elewhere. But I can't stand it when facts are profoundly distorted for some sort of PC.


The claim made previously was that Lenin was a Jew..that is not true. It is an example of the lengths some will go to in making history fit their own idea's.

The claim that the Russian Revolution was some sore of Jewish conspiracy is a lie. Most groups within Russia that felt like they were oppressed  and down trodden sided with the Revolution. But to say the Revolution was somehow Jewish in nature is deeply anti-semitic. It ignores the central fact of the Russian Revolution that it was hijacked by Joseph Stalin who was the main perpetrator of  the great terror foisted upon the Church and many other aspects of Russian Life.

Stalin was  baptised an Orthodox Christian. To say then that his crimes were Orthodox Christian crimes is as silly as saying the Jews were responsible for it. Jews were poor and outcast. The poor and outcast sided with the Revolution. However, Stalin purged nearly all of the original Bolsheviks not the least of which was Leon Trotsky, a Jew. Jews quickly returned to their outcast status. You may recall the plight of Russian Jewry and their decades long struggle to leave Russia.. They were surely not in charge of anything and were desperate to leave. They were denied that most basic elements of their faith ( to meet, to get a Jewish education, etc etc) just as much as the Orthodox Christians and more.  The Gulags were full of Jewish
 prisoners.

So, the one actual leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was done away with. The Terror was begun and led by a Baptised Orthodox Christian. Jews suffered particular discrimination up until the day the Soviet Union ended. To say the Revolution was the work of "Jews" is a very old anti-semetic saw.  
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« Reply #105 on: June 22, 2009, 03:19:00 AM »

One wonders why the Russian gentiles so easily allowed the soviets to take over? It seems to be a constant circular power struggle in these slavic lands. Jews are oppressed, but eventually manage to rise to the top again. Then the gentiles lash out at the Jews in resentment, killing many. Then the cycle repeats itself-seemingly endlessly. One would think there'd be a less violent, more balanced way of distributing the power, etc.

I was recently thinking about the massacre which took place in 1941, at Babi Yar, in Kiev. Have been there and gazed pensively into the ravine.  Over 33,000 Jews were ruthlessly murdered in two days, together with some Roma, Orthodox priests, Ukrainian nationalists etc. But it seems the Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis at Babi Yar. And many Ukrainians informed on the Jews too. This seems so hard for me to comprehend. How and why would people inform on their fellow countrymen-regardless of religion?  Huh Also, the chief synagogue in Kiev was turned into a puppet theatre during the Soviet Regime.

I struggle to understand this complex situation...

Rosehip, I understand your struggle...

My own great-grandmother, who was half-Russian (from a very aristocratic, noble family) and half-Ukrainian, and a widow of a guy who was 100% Greek, survived the German occupation of Kyiv, living in her room in the "communal" apartment on the Saksagans'koho Street, just a few blocks from the Tolstoy Square and the Shevchenko Boulevard downtown. Her daughter (my maternal grandmother) and her granddaugher (my mother, who was only 11 when the war began) - escaped to the Omsk oblast, where my maternal grandma had some relatives, -  but my great-grandmother most stubbornly refused to leave Kyiv, saying that the Germans will not last long anyway.

A number of her neighbors in that "communal apartment" were Jews. When the Germans announced that all Jews of Kyiv must take all their belongings and move to the designated places to be "evacuated," these residents of my great-grandma's apartment did exactly what was asked of them to do. No one had any doubts that they would be transported to some place where the life would be better for them (and, as some "Aryans" sarcastically said, they would not any longer mess with their neighbours' lives). Many older Jews recalled how Germans who occupied Kyiv in 1918 were kind to them and how the Germans were generally a "civilized, kind, intelligent people." There were rumors that the Jews would be transported to Germany (""c'mon, everybody knows that these Germans just love Jews!"), or to some exotic land (Madagascar?), etc.

I later read in some non-Soviet sources that, actually, some number of Jews who were Kyiv residents were, in fact, made, forced, to board trains and leave Kyiv, no one knows to what destination.

In the Babyn Yar (Russ. Babiy Yar), indeed, the Germans organized some sort of a camp for various prisoners, and a lot of them were shot there with the help of machine guns. And indeed, just like you wrote, those who were executed included some members of the Ukrainian nationalist underground (the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya," UPA), as well as some Communists captured by the German Army, and also, probably, common criminals, or psychiatric patients whom the Nazis regarded as not worth living). To what extent the testimonies that "all Jews were driven to the Babyn Yar and shot there" are true - I really do not know, because I have read the most conflicting, the most outrageously contradicting testimonies on this issue.

What I have heard from my great-grandma, however, was that neither she nor anyone she knew in Kyiv "collaborated" with the Nazis in any way, "telling" them on Jews. In the late 1944, when Kyiv was re-captured by the Soviet Army, some of her former Jewish - VERY Jewish - neighbors who disappeared in 1941 - Sara Mikhailovna Peisakhovich, Sofia Mikhailovna (actually Moiseevna) Bogatyrskaya, and a few others - suddenly re-appeared, alive and well, and occupied their rooms in her Saksagans'koho Street "communal" apartment.

Now, I am not writing all this to say that Jews were not harmed at all by the Nazis. Of course they were! And of course, most definitely, many of them were captured, humiliated, tortured, massacred by the Nazis.

But so were many non-Jews.

And yet, the mere fact that there were many, many, many, MANY non-Jewish people who were massacred by the Nazis in the lands that the German Army occupied in te 1940-s, is seldom, if ever, even mentioned.

And the fact that more Ukrainian peasants were killed by the artificial starvation of 1932-33 organized by Lazar Kaganovich and Henrich Yagoda (Yehuda) than Jews killed during the "Holocaust," remains a TABOO. It can NEVER be mentioned, wrote about, appreciated, wept about.

This makes me suspect that in the eyes of the world, to a very large extent "directed" by Zionist Jews, my people, Ukrainians - as well as many other peoples - are LESS important, less valuable, less HUMAN than the "God's chosen people."

But to Northen Americans, none of this matters...
You are overgeneralising. It does matter to some of us here. We need to know more, but it is not easy to filter through all of what has been written and know what really happened? I also heard from more than one source that the German soldiers were generally regarded as civilized. But then I read about the number of innocent civilians that the Germans gunned down in the back of city hall in retaliation for the death of one soldier. I read about how the allies set up a fair and just trial at Nuremberg. But were the Germans on trial at Nuremburg tortured into confessing things which did not occur? How many people were actually gassed alive and how many were dead bodies which were killed by typhus? How much of what was done by the Ustase in Croatia was real and what part has been exaggerated? As you know, both Serbian Orthodox and Jews died in the Jasenovac concentration camp, but what are the true statistics of the numbers killed? How many Germans were killed and how many innocent German women were horribly treated and abused by the allied victors? How does one get the true picture and the true statistics of what really happened? I would appreciate it if anyone can point to an accurate and fair history of what really happened
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« Reply #106 on: June 22, 2009, 12:06:07 PM »

But so were many non-Jews.

And yet, the mere fact that there were many, many, many, MANY non-Jewish people who were massacred by the Nazis in the lands that the German Army occupied in te 1940-s, is seldom, if ever, even mentioned.


I think that is an easy to understand yet mistaken idea. Jews were singled out early on as the center piece of Nazi propaganda and blamed for every ill the Gemans suffered since WW One up to and including why that war was lost.

They were singled out and ghettoized, they lost all legal rights as citizens and were brutalized. They were eventually herded into either slave camps or death factories the likes of which society has never seen before. It was the Nazi's that put the Jew's in the center ring, not the Jews themselves.

That is not to diminish the fact that millions lost their lives in the fighting of WW Two and that there were other groups, most noteably the Gypsies and Russian Prisoners of war who suffered the same or a similar fate.  But the planned, deliberate and systematic genocide of the Jewish People by the Nazi's stands alone and apart as a horror among many other horrors and crimes committed by the Germans.
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« Reply #107 on: June 22, 2009, 01:10:20 PM »


Various anti-semites would have yo believe Lenin was a Jew. Another fabrication. His maternal Grandfather may have been Jewish ( no one is totally sure). He and his parents were Baptised Christians.

The only actual Jew at the top of the leadership was Trotsky who was himself persecuted by Stalin, thrown out of the country and eventally murdered by an agent of Stalin in Mexico.

 

Marc, please try to be objective...

I am not an anti-Semite at all. Let me just tell you that several of my real good lifelong friends are Jewish and several friends of my parents, whom I treated and continue to treat literally as my "uncles" and "aunts," were/are Jewish.

But to say what you said above is an untruth. In 1917-1939, Jews absolutely dominated in all governmental offices of the former USSR. Here is but a short list of names:

Zinoviev (Apfelbaum) - the Chairman of the Komintern ("Communist International" - technically a higher position in the Communist hierarchy than Lenin's);

Kamenev (Rosenfeld) - the Chairman of the city of Moscow Communist Party organization, the Chairman of the VSNKh (the office that supervised all industry), a Politburo member;

Yaroslavsky (Gubelman) - the head of the Leage of Militant Atheists (the organization that supervised the demise of churches, the killings of priests, etc.);

Yagoda (Yehuda) - the chief of the NKVD (People's Comissariat of Internal Affairs, actually the secret police responsible of murder of millions of innocent people, unbelievable cruelties, torture, organizing executions of millions of peasants by artificial famine, etc.);

Kaganovich - a powerful Politburo member who held many positions, including the People's Comissar of Heavy Industry, the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, the Minister of Education of the USSR (among others) (actually an obedient secretary and lackey of Stalin who was notorious for his cruelty);

Frinovsky, Berman, and several others whose last names I do not recall right now, but who all had Jewish names - the chief executive officers of GULAG;

Litvinov (Vallach) - a Lithuanian Jew who had trouble speaking grammatical Russian, served as the People's Comissar of Foreign Affairs...

... and hundreds of others.

I will dig some hard numbers for you if you like.

Now. I am not suppporting the claims of the OP and I am not really even interested in tracing Jewish traits in Catholicism or elewhere. But I can't stand it when facts are profoundly distorted for some sort of PC.


The claim made previously was that Lenin was a Jew..that is not true. It is an example of the lengths some will go to in making history fit their own idea's.

The claim that the Russian Revolution was some sore of Jewish conspiracy is a lie. Most groups within Russia that felt like they were oppressed  and down trodden sided with the Revolution. But to say the Revolution was somehow Jewish in nature is deeply anti-semitic. It ignores the central fact of the Russian Revolution that it was hijacked by Joseph Stalin who was the main perpetrator of  the great terror foisted upon the Church and many other aspects of Russian Life.

Stalin was  baptised an Orthodox Christian. To say then that his crimes were Orthodox Christian crimes is as silly as saying the Jews were responsible for it. Jews were poor and outcast. The poor and outcast sided with the Revolution. However, Stalin purged nearly all of the original Bolsheviks not the least of which was Leon Trotsky, a Jew. Jews quickly returned to their outcast status. You may recall the plight of Russian Jewry and their decades long struggle to leave Russia.. They were surely not in charge of anything and were desperate to leave. They were denied that most basic elements of their faith ( to meet, to get a Jewish education, etc etc) just as much as the Orthodox Christians and more.  The Gulags were full of Jewish
 prisoners.

So, the one actual leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was done away with. The Terror was begun and led by a Baptised Orthodox Christian. Jews suffered particular discrimination up until the day the Soviet Union ended. To say the Revolution was the work of "Jews" is a very old anti-semetic saw.  

Now your blaming Orthodox Christians for the invention of Judeo-Bolshevic Communism? Geez.


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« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2009, 01:12:51 PM »

sdcheung: Ataturk was a jew?HuhHuh

And here, silly me, all this time I thought he was a Turkish Muslim! With a name like "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk".

(Smacking forehead)

He was a Turkish speaking Albanian Muslim born in Greece.

He was a Doenme, a Crypto-Jew
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« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2009, 01:58:49 PM »


Various anti-semites would have yo believe Lenin was a Jew. Another fabrication. His maternal Grandfather may have been Jewish ( no one is totally sure). He and his parents were Baptised Christians.

The only actual Jew at the top of the leadership was Trotsky who was himself persecuted by Stalin, thrown out of the country and eventally murdered by an agent of Stalin in Mexico.

 

Marc, please try to be objective...

I am not an anti-Semite at all. Let me just tell you that several of my real good lifelong friends are Jewish and several friends of my parents, whom I treated and continue to treat literally as my "uncles" and "aunts," were/are Jewish.

But to say what you said above is an untruth. In 1917-1939, Jews absolutely dominated in all governmental offices of the former USSR. Here is but a short list of names:

Zinoviev (Apfelbaum) - the Chairman of the Komintern ("Communist International" - technically a higher position in the Communist hierarchy than Lenin's);

Kamenev (Rosenfeld) - the Chairman of the city of Moscow Communist Party organization, the Chairman of the VSNKh (the office that supervised all industry), a Politburo member;

Yaroslavsky (Gubelman) - the head of the Leage of Militant Atheists (the organization that supervised the demise of churches, the killings of priests, etc.);

Yagoda (Yehuda) - the chief of the NKVD (People's Comissariat of Internal Affairs, actually the secret police responsible of murder of millions of innocent people, unbelievable cruelties, torture, organizing executions of millions of peasants by artificial famine, etc.);

Kaganovich - a powerful Politburo member who held many positions, including the People's Comissar of Heavy Industry, the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, the Minister of Education of the USSR (among others) (actually an obedient secretary and lackey of Stalin who was notorious for his cruelty);

Frinovsky, Berman, and several others whose last names I do not recall right now, but who all had Jewish names - the chief executive officers of GULAG;

Litvinov (Vallach) - a Lithuanian Jew who had trouble speaking grammatical Russian, served as the People's Comissar of Foreign Affairs...

... and hundreds of others.

I will dig some hard numbers for you if you like.

Now. I am not suppporting the claims of the OP and I am not really even interested in tracing Jewish traits in Catholicism or elewhere. But I can't stand it when facts are profoundly distorted for some sort of PC.


The claim made previously was that Lenin was a Jew..that is not true. It is an example of the lengths some will go to in making history fit their own idea's.

The claim that the Russian Revolution was some sore of Jewish conspiracy is a lie. Most groups within Russia that felt like they were oppressed  and down trodden sided with the Revolution. But to say the Revolution was somehow Jewish in nature is deeply anti-semitic. It ignores the central fact of the Russian Revolution that it was hijacked by Joseph Stalin who was the main perpetrator of  the great terror foisted upon the Church and many other aspects of Russian Life.

Stalin was  baptised an Orthodox Christian. To say then that his crimes were Orthodox Christian crimes is as silly as saying the Jews were responsible for it. Jews were poor and outcast. The poor and outcast sided with the Revolution. However, Stalin purged nearly all of the original Bolsheviks not the least of which was Leon Trotsky, a Jew. Jews quickly returned to their outcast status. You may recall the plight of Russian Jewry and their decades long struggle to leave Russia.. They were surely not in charge of anything and were desperate to leave. They were denied that most basic elements of their faith ( to meet, to get a Jewish education, etc etc) just as much as the Orthodox Christians and more.  The Gulags were full of Jewish
 prisoners.

So, the one actual leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was done away with. The Terror was begun and led by a Baptised Orthodox Christian. Jews suffered particular discrimination up until the day the Soviet Union ended. To say the Revolution was the work of "Jews" is a very old anti-semetic saw.  

Now your blaming Orthodox Christians for the invention of Judeo-Bolshevic Communism? Geez.




Read for content..

The Russian Revolution was led by Atheists. Most of whom were Baptised as Orthodox Christians. The overwhelming majority of people who supported the Revolution were Russians, likewise Baptised. Many Jew's as well supported the Revolution. It is ridiculous to claim the Revolution was part of some sort of Jewish deal just as much as it would be to say it was connected to the fact that most of it's leaders and supporters were at one time Orthodox Christians.

The only top leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was Leon Trotsky. He was purged and then murdered. The Soviet Union was a Totalitarian dictatorship from Stalin on. None of those titular leaders was Jewish. Jews were in fact persecuted and discriminated against and eventually emigrate en mass.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 02:00:49 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2009, 03:26:04 PM »

The claim that the Russian Revolution was some sore of Jewish conspiracy is a lie. Most groups within Russia that felt like they were oppressed  and down trodden sided with the Revolution. But to say the Revolution was somehow Jewish in nature is deeply anti-semitic. It ignores the central fact of the Russian Revolution that it was hijacked by Joseph Stalin who was the main perpetrator of  the great terror foisted upon the Church and many other aspects of Russian Life.

Stalin was  baptised an Orthodox Christian. To say then that his crimes were Orthodox Christian crimes is as silly as saying the Jews were responsible for it. Jews were poor and outcast. The poor and outcast sided with the Revolution. However, Stalin purged nearly all of the original Bolsheviks not the least of which was Leon Trotsky, a Jew. Jews quickly returned to their outcast status. You may recall the plight of Russian Jewry and their decades long struggle to leave Russia.. They were surely not in charge of anything and were desperate to leave. They were denied that most basic elements of their faith ( to meet, to get a Jewish education, etc etc) just as much as the Orthodox Christians and more.  The Gulags were full of Jewish
 prisoners.

So, the one actual leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was done away with. The Terror was begun and led by a Baptised Orthodox Christian. Jews suffered particular discrimination up until the day the Soviet Union ended. To say the Revolution was the work of "Jews" is a very old anti-semetic saw.   

Now your blaming Orthodox Christians for the invention of Judeo-Bolshevic Communism? Geez.




Read for content..

The Russian Revolution was led by Atheists. Most of whom were Baptised as Orthodox Christians. The overwhelming majority of people who supported the Revolution were Russians, likewise Baptised. Many Jew's as well supported the Revolution. It is ridiculous to claim the Revolution was part of some sort of Jewish deal just as much as it would be to say it was connected to the fact that most of it's leaders and supporters were at one time Orthodox Christians.

The only top leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was Leon Trotsky. He was purged and then murdered. The Soviet Union was a Totalitarian dictatorship from Stalin on. None of those titular leaders was Jewish. Jews were in fact persecuted and discriminated against and eventually emigrate en mass.
But weren’t the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.



Fixed quote tag issue...  Nothing more...  -PtA
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« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2009, 04:55:57 PM »

The claim that the Russian Revolution was some sore of Jewish conspiracy is a lie. Most groups within Russia that felt like they were oppressed  and down trodden sided with the Revolution. But to say the Revolution was somehow Jewish in nature is deeply anti-semitic. It ignores the central fact of the Russian Revolution that it was hijacked by Joseph Stalin who was the main perpetrator of the great terror foisted upon the Church and many other aspects of Russian Life.

Stalin was baptised an Orthodox Christian. To say then that his crimes were Orthodox Christian crimes is as silly as saying the Jews were responsible for it. Jews were poor and outcast. The poor and outcast sided with the Revolution. However, Stalin purged nearly all of the original Bolsheviks not the least of which was Leon Trotsky, a Jew. Jews quickly returned to their outcast status. You may recall the plight of Russian Jewry and their decades long struggle to leave Russia.. They were surely not in charge of anything and were desperate to leave. They were denied that most basic elements of their faith ( to meet, to get a Jewish education, etc etc) just as much as the Orthodox Christians and more. The Gulags were full of Jewish
 prisoners.


Now your blaming Orthodox Christians for the invention of Judeo-Bolshevic Communism? Geez.




Read for content..

The Russian Revolution was led by Atheists. Most of whom were Baptised as Orthodox Christians. The overwhelming majority of people who supported the Revolution were Russians, likewise Baptised. Many Jew's as well supported the Revolution. It is ridiculous to claim the Revolution was part of some sort of Jewish deal just as much as it would be to say it was connected to the fact that most of it's leaders and supporters were at one time Orthodox Christians.

The only top leader of the Revolution who was Jewish was Leon Trotsky. He was purged and then murdered. The Soviet Union was a Totalitarian dictatorship from Stalin on. None of those titular leaders was Jewish. Jews were in fact persecuted and discriminated against and eventually emigrate en mass.
But weren't the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.
[/quote]

Sure.. Oppressed minorities tended to side with the Revolution. And most of the leaders and henchman of Stalin who persecuted the Church were Baptised Orthodox. What's your point?

To draw into this some sort of International Jewish Conspiracy plot has no legs IMHO. Most of the Confederate Leaders  in our Civil War were Protestants... So what?

Was Engles Jewish? I don't know. People here think Lenin was Jewish.... and Obama too..and the Pope.
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« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2009, 05:33:42 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?
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« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2009, 07:09:28 PM »

In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

The need to feel "superior", little or no empathy for the situation of others and lack of love for those we perceive to be our enemies.  Sad
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« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2009, 07:49:26 PM »

In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

The need to feel "superior", little or no empathy for the situation of others and lack of love for those we perceive to be our enemies.  Sad

I know, Riddi. Cry Everyone thinks only of  himself-very few try to enter the world of the "other"... Cry
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« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2009, 08:25:19 PM »


But weren’t the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.



"Friedrich Engels was born on Nov. 28, 1820, in Barmen, Rhenish Prussia, a small industrial town in the Wupper valley. He was the oldest of the six children of Friedrich and Elisabeth Franziska Mauritia Engels. The senior Engels, a textile manufacturer, was a Christian Pietist and religious fanatic"


Emphasis added........... for emphasis

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404702008.html
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« Reply #116 on: June 22, 2009, 08:51:46 PM »


But weren’t the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.



"Friedrich Engels was born on Nov. 28, 1820, in Barmen, Rhenish Prussia, a small industrial town in the Wupper valley. He was the oldest of the six children of Friedrich and Elisabeth Franziska Mauritia Engels. The senior Engels, a textile manufacturer, was a Christian Pietist and religious fanatic"


Emphasis added........... for emphasis

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404702008.html
I think that you are right on this. I was reading the book: "Showdown in Jerusalem, A Digest"  by Gert Timmerman and it says on page 4:  "In 1844, Hess introduced Marx to the German Jew Friedrich Engels."
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« Reply #117 on: June 22, 2009, 09:52:18 PM »


But weren’t the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.



"Friedrich Engels was born on Nov. 28, 1820, in Barmen, Rhenish Prussia, a small industrial town in the Wupper valley. He was the oldest of the six children of Friedrich and Elisabeth Franziska Mauritia Engels. The senior Engels, a textile manufacturer, was a Christian Pietist and religious fanatic"


Emphasis added........... for emphasis

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404702008.html
I think that you are right on this. I was reading the book: "Showdown in Jerusalem, A Digest"  by Gert Timmerman and it says on page 4:  "In 1844, Hess introduced Marx to the German Jew Friedrich Engels."


Engels was German. Pietist-shmietist...

Marx was Jewish. Protestant-shmotestant...

Lenin was a mongrel with Jewish, Kalmyk and some other ancestors. Communist-shmommunist...

I don't care about this thread anymore, forgive me guys, keep being busy researching your interesting stuff. PC rules.
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« Reply #118 on: June 22, 2009, 09:55:40 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only opporessed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 
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« Reply #119 on: June 22, 2009, 10:16:57 PM »

Heorhij,

If anything in my reply to you last night felt like an attack or upset you, I apologize.

Ebor
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« Reply #120 on: June 22, 2009, 10:50:59 PM »

Heorhij,

I too ask your forgiveness! I was not even referring to you at all-I was thinking in a much more generalized sense altogether!!
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« Reply #121 on: June 22, 2009, 10:52:34 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only opporessed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 


Yeah I hate PC too.

Another evil invention by the jews, along with Socialism, Democracy and Judeo-Bolshevic Communism and Capitalism.
 We have had to deal with your racist posts before, and despite our past warnings you do not learn.

You're banned.

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« Reply #122 on: June 22, 2009, 11:41:15 PM »

 Huh

Democracy came from the ancient Greeks

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« Reply #123 on: June 23, 2009, 12:28:28 AM »


But weren’t the major Communist theoreticians of Jewish ancestry? For example, Marx, Engels, Kautski, Bernstein, Jacob Lastrow, Max Hirsch, etc.



"Friedrich Engels was born on Nov. 28, 1820, in Barmen, Rhenish Prussia, a small industrial town in the Wupper valley. He was the oldest of the six children of Friedrich and Elisabeth Franziska Mauritia Engels. The senior Engels, a textile manufacturer, was a Christian Pietist and religious fanatic"


Emphasis added........... for emphasis

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404702008.html
I think that you are right on this. I was reading the book: "Showdown in Jerusalem, A Digest"  by Gert Timmerman and it says on page 4:  "In 1844, Hess introduced Marx to the German Jew Friedrich Engels."


Engels was German. Pietist-shmietist...

Marx was Jewish. Protestant-shmotestant...

Lenin was a mongrel with Jewish, Kalmyk and some other ancestors. Communist-shmommunist...

I don't care about this thread anymore, forgive me guys, keep being busy researching your interesting stuff. PC rules.
If anything I said offended anyone, then I am sorry about it. It is not the same as when you are talking to someone face to face.  And of course, we are not pretending to know what really happened. I look at it as an opportunity to learn just a little. thanks.
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« Reply #124 on: June 23, 2009, 01:44:23 AM »

Heorhij,

I too ask your forgiveness! I was not even referring to you at all-I was thinking in a much more generalized sense altogether!!

Same goes for me!! Forgive me, if I have offended you!
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« Reply #125 on: June 23, 2009, 07:19:15 AM »

Dear Rosehip, Stanley, Ebor, Riddi,

No, no, you do not have to apologize; nothing you wrote offended me, really. I do very much appreciate your thoughts! I am not offended with what Marc wrote, either - I just see in what he wrote a mere repetition of a very mythologized and primitive "history" of this so-called "Communist revolution"; but that's so common here, in the USA.

When I wrote that I am not interested in this thread, I meant it. I think it went well beyond the scope of the observation (real or illusionary) shared with us in the original post. What exactly happened in the former Russian Empire in 1917 and how things developed in its re-incarnation, the USSR, is a different topic and I don't see how it can be seriously pursued here.

And of course, I never wanted this thread to become a venue for racist views or global conspiracy theories.

Dear folks, it is I who should apologize, not you. Please forgive me.
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« Reply #126 on: June 23, 2009, 07:24:59 AM »

^^ Nothing to forgive, Heorhij.
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« Reply #127 on: June 23, 2009, 12:33:59 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only oppressed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 

It sounds like to me that you have not been digesting the conversation properly if those are the points you have taken away from it.

Sometimes it is a good idea to back away from a hot button discussion like this and protect your heart, especially during a fast period. No shame in it at all. I should do the same.
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« Reply #128 on: June 23, 2009, 12:46:15 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only oppressed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 

It sounds like to me that you have not been digesting the conversation properly if those are the points you have taken away from it.

Sometimes it is a good idea to back away from a hot button discussion like this and protect your heart, especially during a fast period. No shame in it at all. I should do the same.

No Marc, believe me, I have digested a lot of PC nonsense about Jews being an oppressed minority in the former USSR and about them being the victims of the evil Communist revolution, for many, many years (19 to be precise) of my stay in the USA.

But I agree with what you are saying about the fast. Actually, I am not interested in discussing Jews with you even when the fast will be over.
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« Reply #129 on: June 23, 2009, 01:55:47 PM »

Dear NorthernPines

I am referring to all the jews of today. You are right, some of them are religious, other aren't.

Thanks for the clarification!


Quote
It was non religious atheistic jews who created the Russian Revolution,

I think it's more accurate to say that there were secular Jews involved, but they certainly weren't the only ones. I'd rather not go into the politics of Russia or the Soviets but, I don't think it's fair to say Jews were the ONLY people involved, many Russians, and probably mostly Russians were responsible for the Revolution. The Russian Empire had become corrupt and brutal, not to mention complete in love with "the world"....St. Theophan wrote about the state of 'Holy Russia' a few times in his letters and he didn't seem to be all that impressed with it. (though it was never something he was over concerned about either)

But I'll concede, that yes, some secular Jews were involved. Of course, so were secular Russians, so I don't really see the point. Russians were responsible for brutal treatment of the Alaskan Natives (according to St. Herman)....every ethnic group has done some horrible things in history, Greeks, Serbians, Poles, Italians, Irish, Arabs...no one is clean, and all have blood on their hands as an ethnic group. And yet, as Scripture says, the children shall not pay for the sins of the father. So just because England was brutal and cruel to Ireland at some time in the past, doesn't mean I have ANY bad feelings against English people. I frankly do not care because we're all part of the single family of humanity and all are fallen.




Quote

It would be interesting to open a thread on the soviet holocaust and genocide, and the role of atheistic jews in it, and the aftermath. Will there anyone be judged for crimes against humanity? Will the soviet holocaust receive so much dissemination? Will antichristianity be condemned? Will survivors and other victims receive compensation, and retributive justice? Will the jews be forced to apologize and be closely monitored so that this massacre is never repeated? Will True Orthodox Christians become the "untouchables" and the slightest criticism towards them will be considered as antichristianity, racism, hate propaganda, intolerance and the like?

The only sense I can agree with you here on, is yes, I also feel as though we are a bit to sensitive when it comes to Israel. Any criticism against Israel is deemed "racist" and anti semitic....this is wrong, but that is the secular nation of Israel. Not "the Jews"...anymore than the "evil Empire" made Russians "evil"...many people grew up in the 40's and 50's being taught that Russians were evil and wanted to take over the world......now we know Russians are just like everyone else, including the Jews. They are just people trying to live the best they can and know how. One cannot blame the Jews for Communism anymore than one can blame the Greeks for the cruelty of the Byzantine Empire. Yes, both are bad things, atheistic domination, and religious Empires run amok, but the people involved are long dead. I cannot, as a Christian hold people living today responsible for something that happened 100 yrs ago, or 1000 yrs ago.

It's time for us to realize that we are all one race, the human race......and tribal and religious warfare must end.





Quote
Will the True Russian Orthodox Christians have so much power as to boss other religions round, and force them to remove what they don't like labeling it as antichristianity? ........

Well, Russian Orthodox Christians did get to boss everyone around for nearly 1000 years. And to me that wasn't right either. Yet I don't hold the Russian people responsible for some of the more cruel Tsars that ruled Russia at various times. I don't hold Greeks responsible collectively as a  "people" for Iconoclasm, because an equal amount of Greeks were Iconodules. Do you see that people are people; good ones and bad ones, across all ethnic identities? What makes a person bad is not their ethnic identity but they way they LIVE as individuals. What makes nations bad is they way they act collectively.....Nazi Germany was bad because of the way it acted, not because of the fact that they were "Germans". What makes Israel the nation "bad" at times is not the fact that they are Jews, but the fact that the government wants power. But that's not the people. The people, from what I've been told and heard, on the ground, can still get along, until those in power butt in and take control. There are a select few people of ALL ethnicitiesthat desire power above all else, but it doesn't make them all bad. Even those that use religion (and I consider "devout" atheism like Stalin's a religion) as an excuse to control people, like Stalin are bad not because of the religion per se (I know of atheists who wouldn't hurt a fly) but because they want power.

Have you ever seen or read Lord of the Rings? IMO it totally gets this issue right. If you've never seen the movies, or if you've never thought of the underlying Christian themes, I suggest you read about them, then watch the movies again.


I hope and pray you can see that people are just people, whether Jews, Muslim's Arabs, Greeks, Russians, Christians, Hindus whatever......it makes no difference, Christ died for them all, including you and me.

In Peace,

NP





You see, Jews are an easy scapegoat for the Ultradox in terms of the Revolution. Without this sort of superstitious- conspiratorial excuse, they would have to face up to some unpleasant facts about the Czarist Regime.

Personally, I mourn the loss the Nicholas and his family and think it was a crime against Christianity. However, conditions in Russia were ripe for Revolution. For example, the Czarist Army led troops to the front in World War One...  Unarmed.. Not poorly armed. Not poorly trained or with out-dated equipment... they had no weapons at all.
Russian troops would grabe sticks and shovels and throw stones as they were forced to charge German machine guns. The Russian Revolution was triggered by troops leaving the front by the tens of thousands, disgruntled and foot loose. They often had killed their officers.

The list of grievances by the Russian people only starts there. It is no big wonder that there was a Revolution. Lenin was in fact taken by surprise. He had said just months earlier that he didn't think there would be a Revolution in Russia during his lifetime. He thought there would be one in Germany first which was an advanced industrial state.

The Russian Revolution was not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. The Terror that came later against the Church and many others was likewise not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. Anyone who believes that should get to the Library ASAP.

Marc   
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« Reply #130 on: June 23, 2009, 01:58:54 PM »

You see, Jews are an easy scapegoat for the Ultradox in terms of the Revolution. Without this sort of superstitious- conspiratorial excuse, they would have to face up to some unpleasant facts about the Czarist Regime.

Personally, I mourn the loss the Nicholas and his family and think it was a crime against Christianity. However, conditions in Russia were ripe for Revolution. For example, the Czarist Army led troops to the front in World War One...  Unarmed.. Not poorly armed. Not poorly trained or without dated equipment... they had no weapons at all.
Russian troops would grabe sticks and shovels and throw stones as they were forced to charge German machine guns. The Russian Revolution was triggered by troops leaving the front by the tens of thousands, disgruntled and foot loose. They often had killed their officers.

The list of grievances by the Russian people only starts there. It is no big wonder that there was a Revolution. Lenin was in fact taken by surprise. He had said just months earlier that he didn't think there would be a Revolution in Russia during his lifetime. He thought there would be one in Germany first which was an advanced industrial state.

The Russian Revolution was not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. The Terror that came later against the Church and many others was likewise not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. Anyone who believes that should get to the Library ASAP.

Marc   
But what about Karl Marx?
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« Reply #131 on: June 23, 2009, 02:02:33 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only oppressed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 

It sounds like to me that you have not been digesting the conversation properly if those are the points you have taken away from it.

Sometimes it is a good idea to back away from a hot button discussion like this and protect your heart, especially during a fast period. No shame in it at all. I should do the same.

No Marc, believe me, I have digested a lot of PC nonsense about Jews being an oppressed minority in the former USSR and about them being the victims of the evil Communist revolution, for many, many years (19 to be precise) of my stay in the USA.

But I agree with what you are saying about the fast. Actually, I am not interested in discussing Jews with you even when the fast will be over.

Okay. first of all you have badly  miss represented my postions. If you care to continue I can as well.

Secondly, there have been some very harsh anti-semitic remarks in this and related threads. I would be careful which dogs you lay down with... If standing up to patently false statements, bigotry and ignorance is "Political Correctness"
then so be it.
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« Reply #132 on: June 23, 2009, 02:04:19 PM »

You see, Jews are an easy scapegoat for the Ultradox in terms of the Revolution. Without this sort of superstitious- conspiratorial excuse, they would have to face up to some unpleasant facts about the Czarist Regime.

Personally, I mourn the loss the Nicholas and his family and think it was a crime against Christianity. However, conditions in Russia were ripe for Revolution. For example, the Czarist Army led troops to the front in World War One...  Unarmed.. Not poorly armed. Not poorly trained or without dated equipment... they had no weapons at all.
Russian troops would grabe sticks and shovels and throw stones as they were forced to charge German machine guns. The Russian Revolution was triggered by troops leaving the front by the tens of thousands, disgruntled and foot loose. They often had killed their officers.

The list of grievances by the Russian people only starts there. It is no big wonder that there was a Revolution. Lenin was in fact taken by surprise. He had said just months earlier that he didn't think there would be a Revolution in Russia during his lifetime. He thought there would be one in Germany first which was an advanced industrial state.

The Russian Revolution was not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. The Terror that came later against the Church and many others was likewise not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. Anyone who believes that should get to the Library ASAP.

Marc   
But what about Karl Marx?

He was a Jew and an Atheist. I don't think he was ever in Russia or ever predicted a Revolution there. In fact, a Socialist Revolution in a backward Feudal State goes against his core theories... What's your point?

What about Joseph Stalin?
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« Reply #133 on: June 23, 2009, 02:28:58 PM »

You see, Jews are an easy scapegoat for the Ultradox in terms of the Revolution. Without this sort of superstitious- conspiratorial excuse, they would have to face up to some unpleasant facts about the Czarist Regime.

Personally, I mourn the loss the Nicholas and his family and think it was a crime against Christianity. However, conditions in Russia were ripe for Revolution. For example, the Czarist Army led troops to the front in World War One...  Unarmed.. Not poorly armed. Not poorly trained or without dated equipment... they had no weapons at all.
Russian troops would grabe sticks and shovels and throw stones as they were forced to charge German machine guns. The Russian Revolution was triggered by troops leaving the front by the tens of thousands, disgruntled and foot loose. They often had killed their officers.

The list of grievances by the Russian people only starts there. It is no big wonder that there was a Revolution. Lenin was in fact taken by surprise. He had said just months earlier that he didn't think there would be a Revolution in Russia during his lifetime. He thought there would be one in Germany first which was an advanced industrial state.

The Russian Revolution was not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. The Terror that came later against the Church and many others was likewise not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. Anyone who believes that should get to the Library ASAP.

Marc   
But what about Karl Marx?

He was a Jew and an Atheist. I don't think he was ever in Russia or ever predicted a Revolution there. In fact, a Socialist Revolution in a backward Feudal State goes against his core theories... What's your point?

What about Joseph Stalin?
Karl Marx was a major Communist theoretician. Stalin followed many of his ideas.
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« Reply #134 on: June 23, 2009, 02:53:49 PM »

You see, Jews are an easy scapegoat for the Ultradox in terms of the Revolution. Without this sort of superstitious- conspiratorial excuse, they would have to face up to some unpleasant facts about the Czarist Regime.

Personally, I mourn the loss the Nicholas and his family and think it was a crime against Christianity. However, conditions in Russia were ripe for Revolution. For example, the Czarist Army led troops to the front in World War One...  Unarmed.. Not poorly armed. Not poorly trained or without dated equipment... they had no weapons at all.
Russian troops would grab sticks and shovels and throw stones as they were forced to charge German machine guns. The Russian Revolution was triggered by troops leaving the front by the tens of thousands, disgruntled and foot loose. They often had killed their officers.

The list of grievances by the Russian people only starts there. It is no big wonder that there was a Revolution. Lenin was in fact taken by surprise. He had said just months earlier that he didn't think there would be a Revolution in Russia during his lifetime. He thought there would be one in Germany first which was an advanced industrial state.

The Russian Revolution was not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. The Terror that came later against the Church and many others was likewise not the secret work of a Jewish conspiracy. Anyone who believes that should get to the Library ASAP.

Marc   
But what about Karl Marx?

He was a Jew and an Atheist. I don't think he was ever in Russia or ever predicted a Revolution there. In fact, a Socialist Revolution in a backward Feudal State goes against his core theories... What's your point?

What about Joseph Stalin?
Karl Marx was a major Communist theoretician. Stalin followed many of his ideas.

Hegel was a major philosopher and a Christian. Marx borrowed many of his ideas from Hegel. What's you point?

Stalin certainly didn't follow Marx's idea's very closely. Marx developed what he termed "Scientific Socialism". It followed a set pattern of development from Pastoral Life, to Feudalism to Capitalism to Socialism to eventually "Communism". Russia was still very much a Feudal Society. By the most basic tenants of Marx, Russia was not a candidate for a Socialist much less a Communist Revolution. Stalin had to brutally force industrialization to spackle over this gaping flaw. It was not at all what Marx forsaw or predicted and I bet would even advise.

The most brutal aspects of the Russian Revolution were carried out by Stalin who was Baptised Orthodox. Why would anyone blame Judaism for Marx and not Orthodoxy for Stalin?..Seems like a convenient double standard to me. 
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« Reply #135 on: June 23, 2009, 03:00:22 PM »

Okay. first of all you have badly  miss represented my postions.

No. You are continuously lumping together the Jewish ethnicity and the Jewish religion and deny that, for example, Marx was a Jew, because his parents baptized him. That's an ultimate nonsense. A Jewish person remains a Jewish person - the Jewish ethnicity cannot be changed by baptism. Boris Pasternak was a Jew (and a great Russian poet), even though he was a devout Orthodox.

If you care to continue I can as well.

No Marc, not really. I am afraid that talking with you about Jews has as much sense as talking with Orthodoc or Ilalmisry about Ukrainian nationalism. We are just on different planets in this regard, or in different galaxies, so there is no point in any discussion.

Secondly, there have been some very harsh anti-semitic remarks in this and related threads.

Yes there were, and some people were even banned for making these remarks. But saying that Jews dominated in all governmental offices of the USSR, and especially in the repressive secret police, between 1917 and ~1938-38, is not a "harsh antisemitic remark" in my book - it is just a reflection of the truth. But in your book, I am afraid, it WILL be a "harsh anti-semitic remark." You will say that they were not Jews but "atheists." In this regard, one very obnoxious Russian populist-politician whose name is Vladimir Vol'fovich Zhirinovskiy ("Vol'fovich" is a patronym indicating that his father's name was Volf or Wolf, a Jewish name), when asked, who were his parents, said, "my mother was a Russian and my father was a lawyer!" Smiley


I would be careful which dogs you lay down with... If standing up to patently false statements, bigotry and ignorance is "Political Correctness"
then so be it.

PC IS patently false statements, bigotry and ignorance .
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« Reply #136 on: June 23, 2009, 08:53:03 PM »

No. You are continuously lumping together the Jewish ethnicity and the Jewish religion and deny that, for example, Marx was a Jew, because his parents baptized him. That's an ultimate nonsense. A Jewish person remains a Jewish person - the Jewish ethnicity cannot be changed by baptism. Boris Pasternak was a Jew (and a great Russian poet), even though he was a devout Orthodox.



Say what??

I never made that claim at any time in any place.. Geez.. Where did I deny Marx was a Jew and when in the world did I ever mention he was Baptised.. That would be news to me BTW.... I never heard he was Baptised and frankly doubt it very much.

Really..provide quotes.. You have either confused me with someone else or you have several different posts all muddled up in your head.

No Marc, not really. I am afraid that talking with you about Jews has as much sense as talking with Orthodoc or Ilalmisry about Ukrainian nationalism. We are just on different planets in this regard, or in different galaxies, so there is no point in any discussion.


Okay... If you say so but I am not certain you have been following the arguments very well.



Secondly, there have been some very harsh anti-semitic remarks in this and related threads.


Yes there were, and some people were even banned for making these remarks. But saying that Jews dominated in all governmental offices of the USSR, and especially in the repressive secret police, between 1917 and ~1938-38, is not a "harsh antisemitic remark" in my book - it is just a reflection of the truth. But in your book, I am afraid, it WILL be a "harsh anti-semitic remark." You will say that they were not Jews but "atheists." In this regard, one very obnoxious Russian populist-politician whose name is Vladimir Vol'fovich Zhirinovskiy ("Vol'fovich" is a patronym indicating that his father's name was Volf or Wolf, a Jewish name), when asked, who were his parents, said, "my mother was a Russian and my father was a lawyer!" Smiley



Once again... What's your point? What are you implying ?.. Do you seriously think the Russian Revolution is some sort of Jewish Conspiracy?..Please explain yourself. Thanks

Second, the Russian Revolution was dominated by Russians who were nearly to the Man Baptised Orthodox. Not a single Soviet Dictator was a Jew. The Gulag was filled with Jews. Trotsky, the one top leader who was Jewish was murdered by Stalin early on. Jews were particularly discriminated against, Synagogues closed, Jewish education was banned..The bulk of the Jewish population eventually fled the country once international pressure was brought to bare long enough...

Sorry if you think this is "gobalty gook" or somehow incomprehensible but no legitimate historian thinks the Russian Revolution was some sort of Jewish conspiracy. You must travel to  the out-edges of the internet to find such tripe.

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« Reply #137 on: June 23, 2009, 09:47:42 PM »

I think so many of our problems would be removed if we could only somehow put ourselves in each other's shoes. If the Orthodox Christian could try to imagine himself as born into a Jewish, or Catholic, or Muslim family and if these also could try to imagine themselves in a different situation. In the end, we are all human beings with similar feelings and experiences. Why do we allow religion or race to cause so many problems?

Rosehip, I am not interested in this thread anymore exactly because it degraded into me or someone else allegedly being "mad at the Jews," while I am most definitely not.

I just mentioned in passing that the PC gobblledeegook Marc is repeating here is just that, goblledeegook (like, Trotsky, poor little darling, was the only opporessed Jew from the Lenin's Old Bolshevik cohort who was murdered by this vicious Orthodox Christian Stalin, the highjacker of the Great October Socialist Revolution etc.).

Be well, guys.
 


Yeah I hate PC too.

Another evil invention by the jews, along with Socialism, Democracy and Judeo-Bolshevic Communism and Capitalism.
 We have had to deal with your racist posts before, and despite our past warnings you do not learn.

You're banned.

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« Reply #138 on: June 23, 2009, 10:11:11 PM »

What happened in the 20th Century and what continues to happen even now is the natural culmination of humanism. The Wiki definition will do for a start: "Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appealing to universal human qualities, particularly rationality, without resorting to the supernatural or alleged divine authority from religious texts."

The problem here is what Karl Marx succumbed to, the two leaps of faith that are the basis of Marxism: (1) Species/ideal man exists, and (2) man can perfect mankind. Professor Kuehnelt-Leddihn's taxonomy of the political arena as two halves of one sphere is similar: on one side, Leftism that is based on the two leaps of faith above, while on the other side, Rightism that posits that God's help is needed.

One can readily see that from the above perspective there is not much of difference between Marxists, communists, socialists, modern day liberals, bolsheviks, Maoists, Nazis, fascists, and the like. In each case, men tried to shape their destiny and/or alleviate their suffering, all on their own. You will notice that each one of the Leftisms either downgraded the importance of religion, suppressed communities of faith, or invented their own quasi-religion. It did not matter what kind of background these people had. Once they struck on their own, without God, they were easy prey to their worst instincts and to Satan.

I forget who said it but the saying was that evil abhorred a vacuum and rushed to where God did not dwell. Not one nationality and religion was spared the mad descent into the dark side of humanism. There is plenty of blame and shame to go around, as well as lots of lessons learned. We will do well to concentrate on the latter and eschew poisonous posters like Provoslav09/IPC and his ilk.
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« Reply #139 on: June 23, 2009, 10:26:45 PM »


What's happening today is the continuation of the return of paganism, with it's exacerbated humanism, hedonism, materialism, legalism, and other unchristian "isms".

It is wrong to blame all this in specific groups only, it's not the jews, it's not the freemasons, it's not the liberals, it's not the democracy, it's not the moslems, ... it is the great apostacy of humanity, the great rebellion of mankind against God, that is making this return of paganism possible.



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« Reply #140 on: June 24, 2009, 07:40:11 AM »


What's happening today is the continuation of the return of paganism, with it's exacerbated humanism, hedonism, materialism, legalism, and other unchristian "isms".

It is wrong to blame all this in specific groups only, it's not the jews, it's not the freemasons, it's not the liberals, it's not the democracy, it's not the moslems, ... it is the great apostacy of humanity, the great rebellion of mankind against God, that is making this return of paganism possible.





Yes. Fully agree.
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« Reply #141 on: June 24, 2009, 08:10:36 AM »

Russian Revolution was dominated by Russians who were nearly to the Man Baptised Orthodox.

Like Sverdlov, Zinoviev (Apfelbaum), Kamenev (Rosenfeld), Steklov (Nahamkes), Parvus (Gelfand), Yaroslavsky (Gubelman), Litvinov (Wallach), Larin (Lurie), Kaganovich, Uritsky...

Not a single Soviet Dictator was a Jew.

Ethnic-wise, Lenin was partially Jewish. His closest associates (see above) were almost all Jews. The Petrograd City Soviet was chaired by Trotsky. The Red Army was actually created and dictatorially led by Trotsky, who made his personal handpicked trusted men (all Jews) the chairmen of the "Politotdels" - small governing bodies with absolute powers over field commanders of the army and navy. The dreaded CheKa (secret police) was supervised by Felix Dzerzhinsky (a Pole), and its Petrograd branch was supervised by Moisey Uritsky. Dzerzhinsky's first deputy, who became all-powerful even when Dzerzhinsky was still alive, was Genrikh Yagoda (Yeguda). People's Comissariates of trade, finance, heavy and light industry, and other were either chaired by Jews, or chaired by non-Jews whose first deputies were Jews (you can find the full list of names in the book by Andrey Dikiy that IPC mentioned, there is a link to its full text in one of his posts). So, to deny that there was an exceptionally strong Jewish presence in the top eshelon of power in the early years of the USSR (up until ~1938-39, when Stalin decided to make a strategic deal with Hitler) is plain silly if not insane. 

The Gulag was filled with Jews.

But look at the names of founders and chief supervisors of Gulag. They were ALL Jewish - Yagoda, Berman, Frinovskiy and other.

Trotsky, the one top leader who was Jewish was murdered by Stalin early on.

Trotsky had a misfortune to imagine himself the sole heir of Lenin in 1922 (when Lenin became a dyfunctional paralytic), which could not satisfy other two all-powerful Jews - Zinoviev (Apfelbaum), who was the Chairman of the Komintern (technically number one Communist of the world), and Kamenev (Rosenfeld), Trotsky's brother-in-law, the chairman of the VSNKh (the governing body that presided over the Soviet industry), and the chairman of the city of Moscow Communist Party branch. Zinoviev and Kamenev started a gigantic campaign of maligning Trotsky, blaming him in all failures of the day. On the annual Communist Party conventions of 1923, 1924, and 1925 they spread the ideological paradigm that they, and also Stalin (who was then a merely technical figure, the General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party - that post became significant only many years after) are representing the "party line" and Comrade Trotsky is an ambitious dreamer who represents an "opposition." In November 1927, being totally cornered by the "triumvirate" of Zinoviev, Kamenev and Stalin and feeling frustrated, Trotsky organized a street rally, which was dispersed by the police. This was used as a case to announce him an "enemy of the people" and to deport him from the USSR. He was killed by Ramon Mercader, a secret agent of Stalin's secret police, in 1940.

Jews were particularly discriminated against, Synagogues closed, Jewish education was banned.

No more synagogues were closed than any other houses of worship. As for discrimination, the VAST MAJORITY of the Jewish population in the USSR in the 1920-s - 1930-s was SECULAR. They could care less about "closing of synagogues."

The bulk of the Jewish population eventually fled the country once international pressure was brought to bare long enough...

Yes. But not to Israel - only a minor part of the Jewish emigrants of the 1970-s chose Israel. The majority went to the USA and lives in this country as absolutely secular people, whom naive Americans call "Russians." Smiley

Sorry if you think this is "gobalty gook" or somehow incomprehensible but no legitimate historian thinks the Russian Revolution was some sort of Jewish conspiracy. You must travel to  the out-edges of the internet to find such tripe.

No, I do not think that the revolt of 1917 was a Jewish conspiracy. But I do think that Jews as a group most definitely took advantage of being a "new aristocracy" in the years between 1917 and 1938-39. That's just impossible to deny.
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« Reply #142 on: June 24, 2009, 10:16:09 AM »

I agree that "there was an exceptionally strong Jewish presence in the top echelon of power in the early years of the USSR."

I also agree that "the Russian Revolution was dominated by Russians who were nearly to the Man Baptised Orthodox."

There really is not deeper meaning to either statement; they should be taken as historical facts with no further implications. It can thus be stated confidently that the Russian Revolution was conducted by Russians of many ethnic backgrounds. Anything else is ultimately meaningless.

However, if you start analyzing why God fearing Russians (Orthodox, Jew or Muslim) became Godless communists, who committed all kinds of monstrosities against God and humanity, you may find different motivations. In addition to the Leftism that was infecting all, I think that the primary motivations initially were idealistic:

For the Jews: to stop the rampant anti-semitism of the non-Jewish Orthodox folks (that is to alleviate the cruelties inflicted on Jews by the supposed Christian authorities and population.

For the Muslims: to reverse their domination by the Christians.

For the Orthodox Russians/etc..: to reform a very backward and hypocritical society.

I must say that soon thereafter (during the Civil War) the idealism of the Bolsheviks turned into very materialistic considerations that eventually resulted in the CPSU becoming nothing more than a Mafia-equivalent organization.
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« Reply #143 on: June 24, 2009, 11:48:56 AM »

I am following this thread because it is interesting to me personally-not because I wish to be antagonistic in any way. Second Chance, I appreciated and agreed with your above post. I think it is very balanced.

What I would humbly like to know is why do Russians always have to bring up the fact of someone's Jewish background, even if that person has become a Christian? I hear it all the time at my church. People's voices drop to a conspiratorial level and mutter "He's Jewish" as if the person has rabies, or leprosy. In my mind, Russian Jews are just as Russian as Russian Orthodox people.

Why is it that when I lived in Kyiv, and folks would talk about people who were born in Ukraine to, say, an African man and a Ukrainian woman,they would ALWAYS say most emphatically that the child of such a union is "Ukrainian". But if a person whose ancestors have lived in the same country for generations, but is Jewish, there's always this attitude that the person is "Jewish", but not fully Ukrainian or Russian, or whatever.

Another thought I've mulled over is the fact that many of the peasantry just did not have the opportunity to receive a good education under Tsarist rule. This severely handicapped the Orthodox peasantry, and kept them in a state of perpetual darkness and ignorance.The Jewish folks, who lived beyond the pale, or in their own settlements, seem to have had more freedom in that they could ensure that their children received a good education. I wonder if events wounldn't have turned out differently had the peasantry been allowed excellent educational opportunties.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I am merely trying to understand! I do not want to offend anyone.
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« Reply #144 on: June 24, 2009, 12:37:42 PM »


Like Sverdlov, Zinoviev (Apfelbaum), Kamenev (Rosenfeld), Steklov (Nahamkes), Parvus (Gelfand), Yaroslavsky (Gubelman), Litvinov (Wallach), Larin (Lurie), Kaganovich, Uritsky...


What?Huh I recognize like one name on that list. There have already  been false claims that Lenin was  a Jew ( which I see you repeat below) and the Engles was a Jew ( he was not)..etc etc.

Please answer the question I keep asking. What is your point? Are you implying some sort of secret cabal of Jews that ran the Russian Revolution? What..is ... your... point  ? Thanks again.

Many Jews sided with the Revolution. Jew's who become communists are by definition Atheists. Their hatred of Judaism is not surpassed by the most hatefilled antisemitic.

The Russian Revolution was not Jewish Revolt. Do you think it was? It was an uprising of the Russian people against autocracy and a terribly broken down  and out dated Feudal system. There was nothing "Jewish" about that. Jews participated, Vastly more people born Orthodox participated. 



Ethnic-wise, Lenin was partially Jewish. His closest associates (see above) were almost all Jews. The Petrograd City Soviet was chaired by Trotsky. The Red Army was actually created and dictatorially led by Trotsky, who made his personal handpicked trusted men (all Jews) the chairmen of the "Politotdels" - small governing bodies with absolute powers over field commanders of the army and navy. The dreaded CheKa (secret police) was supervised by Felix Dzerzhinsky (a Pole), and its Petrograd branch was supervised by Moisey Uritsky. Dzerzhinsky's first deputy, who became all-powerful even when Dzerzhinsky was still alive, was Genrikh Yagoda (Yeguda). People's Comissariates of trade, finance, heavy and light industry, and other were either chaired by Jews, or chaired by non-Jews whose first deputies were Jews (you can find the full list of names in the book by Andrey Dikiy that IPC mentioned, there is a link to its full text in one of his posts). So, to deny that there was an exceptionally strong Jewish presence in the top eshelon of power in the early years of the USSR (up until ~1938-39, when Stalin decided to make a strategic deal with Hitler) is plain silly if not insane. 



I think you must be getting your information from some sort of antisemtic tract. I personally knew several people who lived with Trotsky in Mexico. I did research for his personal bodyguard to help him prove that he was not in league with Stalin's secret police.
You don't know what you are talking about and your false claim that Lenin was a Jew is evidence number one. Lenin's grandfather  was Jewish. No one else. Not his parents, not him. A more classically looking Tarter face would be hard to find.


Antisemites would like people to think it was an Evil Jewish cabal that caused and promulgated the Russian Revolution. This insulates them from facing up the failures of the Czar and somehow puts the eventual terror into a paradigm that fits their conspiratorial  World View. The real terror of the Revolution was the work of Joseph Stalin. The terror the Church endured was the work of Joseph Stalin. Joseph Stalin was as anti-semetic as any of the posters we have seen in these threads....which is saying alot  Wink





snip...

Here is good book for you to read so you can catch up on the facts. "Revolution Betrayed" by Leon Trotsky

Jews were particularly discriminated against, Synagogues closed, Jewish education was banned.

No more synagogues were closed than any other houses of worship. As for discrimination, the VAST MAJORITY of the Jewish population in the USSR in the 1920-s - 1930-s was SECULAR. They could care less about "closing of synagogues."


You apparently have no idea about the level of discrimination against Jews in Russian Society.

If they didn't ("really") care that their religion was brutally suppressed and that they were particularly discriminated against, they would have stayed. As you may recall, much of Soviet Jewry emigrated after years of International pressure.


Yes. But not to Israel - only a minor part of the Jewish emigrants of the 1970-s chose Israel. The majority went to the USA and lives in this country as absolutely secular people, whom naive Americans call "Russians." Smiley


And your point is?

No, I do not think that the revolt of 1917 was a Jewish conspiracy. But I do think that Jews as a group most definitely took advantage of being a "new aristocracy" in the years between 1917 and 1938-39. That's just impossible to deny.


That is a patently anti-smetic statement . Many people who were oppressed minorities put their hope in the Revolution. Many people who were on the bottom found themselves on top.

I am sure that they did enjoy not being beat up or lynched every Easter....Thank you for finally admitting that the Revolution was not a Jewish conspiracy
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« Reply #145 on: June 24, 2009, 12:47:47 PM »

It is important to keep in mind that in the Russian Revolution, the minority of Russians used in the revolutionary activities played a secondary role, and were carefully chosen according to what Marx and Engels describe as Lumpenproletariat.

Lumpenproletariat are the refuse of all classes, outcasts the worst sort of people, willing to do anything they can for their personal benefit, who have no ethics, values and conscience.

Victor Hugo described this kind of people in his book "Les Miserables".

The lumpenproletariat insterts itself in society at all levels. Napoleon and Krushev are two examples of lumpenproletariat at the service of revolutionaries, who inserted themselves in the highest levels of the socio-political sphere. The revolutionaries know the lumpenproletariat does not have the slightest interest to participate in the revolution, but they'll do all they can for personal gain.

Actually one of the goals of the Russian revolution is the lumpenproletariatization russian narod, what some have labelled as "the new soviet man".

Thinking they can outsmart the system, by lies, evil, corruption, and other ungodly means to get personal benefit, people only destroy their dusha, and speed up the lumpenproletariatization process, and before they know it, they are professionals too!

A priest told me about the martyrdom of a group of christians who refused to sign their new identity documents, in which they pledged loyalty to the authorities. He told me "if all russians displayed this kind of loyalty to God, Holy Russia wouldn't have become like Kitezhgrad and it would shine for the amazement of the world even today, as it did in dororevutionary times."




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« Reply #146 on: June 24, 2009, 12:57:13 PM »

I am following this thread because it is interesting to me personally-not because I wish to be antagonistic in any way. Second Chance, I appreciated and agreed with your above post. I think it is very balanced.

What I would humbly like to know is why do Russians always have to bring up the fact of someone's Jewish background, even if that person has become a Christian? I hear it all the time at my church. People's voices drop to a conspiratorial level and mutter "He's Jewish" as if the person has rabies, or leprosy. In my mind, Russian Jews are just as Russian as Russian Orthodox people.

I really don't know. It has always been a convention in my home country to see Jewishness as an ethnicity and not as a religious faith. It's not always been the case; during the Khmelnyts'kyj uprising of 1648, for example, the Cossacks usually killed Jews, but only if the latter refused to be baptised; if the Jews said that they wanted to be baptised, they were spared, and from the moment of their baptism on were considered Christians. But in those times people generally did not know the concept of ethnicity or nationality; if some Ivan Sydorenko in a Ukrainian village stopped attending his Orthodox church and began to attent a Polish "Kostyol," his fellow villagers would not hesitate to say that this guy Sydorenko is now POLISH! In more modern times though, the Jewish ethnicity was recognized as something un-mutable.

Maybe a couple of things should be mentioned. First, in Ukraine, as well as in Russia, Jews themselves have always identified themselves as Jews, completely regardless of their religious faith. They did not quite mix with non-Jews. Mixed marriages were not common; usually Jewish youths married Jewish girls. Sometimes Jewish girls married non-Jewish boys, but that, according to Jewish customs, was not a big deal because children of these marriages were always considered by Jews to be Jewish. Jewishness came from the maternal, not from the paternal side. But if a Jewish boy married what Jews called a "shiksa," a Gentile girl, that was a terrible tragedy for this boy's parents, because that would mean the end of the Jewish line.

In the Jewish families I knew, it was not a custom to talk about anything particularly Jewish. But if I, growing up, would come to one of such families, close friends of my parents, and say - I am just fantasizing, - "Uncle Misha, you are not a Jew, you are a Ukrainian" - Uncle Misha would most definitely call my parents and say that something must be urgently done because their son has gone mad. I mean, we all knew who was Jewish, and it was immutable, and it was like that BECAUSE THE JEWS themselves wanted it to be like that. No Jewish family would give up their Jewishness, ever.

Secondly, we generally were all secular, no one was supposed to have any "religion" and no one really had it, at least in cities.

Another thought I've mulled over is the fact that many of the peasantry just did not have the opportunity to receive a good education under Tsarist rule. This severely handicapped the Orthodox peasantry, and kept them in a state of perpetual darkness and ignorance.The Jewish folks, who lived beyond the pale, or in their own settlements, seem to have had more freedom in that they could ensure that their children received a good education. I wonder if events wounldn't have turned out differently had the peasantry been allowed excellent educational opportunties.

Yes, there is something to it... Before 1917, Jews could not be landowners (although there were exceptions - Trotsky's father, for example, owned a lot of land). They were usually merchants or craftsmen. They were not as attached to their places of birth as the land-working Gentile peasants were. So, for very many Jewish children, especially boys (and to some extent girls as well), education was seen as a golden opportunity to break loose off their tiny, backward, somnolent "schtettel" and to move to a bigger city, where they would be owners of a pharmacy, or dentists, or librarians, etc. And after 1917, universities became wide open for the Jewish youth. In the 1920-s, perhaps more Jewish young men and women studied in Soviet universities than representatives of any other ethnicity. In those years, university admissions were based on the "class principle"; so, if an aspiring student's parents owned even a tiny piece of land, that young man or girl would likely not be admitted because he or she would be considered a representative of the "exploitators classes." The Jewish youth had huge advantages in this regard.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I am merely trying to understand! I do not want to offend anyone.

Oh no, of course not! Thank you for your questions!
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« Reply #147 on: June 24, 2009, 01:11:45 PM »

And thank  you, Heorhij, for answering so kindly!  My intentions are not to hurt or upset, but to know the truth.

I've often thought of these things you mention too. In trying to put the pieces together, I can well imagine the Jews (at least observant ones) with all their dietary laws and exclusive society as appearing standoffish and aloof to the average Slavic peasant. On their part, I cannot see the average Slavic peasant as trying very hard to understand Judaism as a religion and culture.

Having said that, I believe there was indeed a decent amount of intermarriage going on-some of the most beautiful people in general are mixtures of different peoples, and the sometimes striking beauty found amongst Russian Jews I believe may be a result of this intermarriage.

And to Marc, Heorhij is right in his claim that all those gentlemen who composed the original core group of Soviet leaders were indeed of Jewish ancestory-their surnames are all Jewish  beyond any doubt.
Btw, I was investigating these men and found some really interesting things. Sverdlovsk, was, in my opinion, really cute!! Wink
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« Reply #148 on: June 24, 2009, 01:23:19 PM »

And thank  you, Heorhij, for answering so kindly!  My intentions are not to hurt or upset, but to know the truth.

Thank you, dear sister.

Btw, I was investigating these men and found some really interesting things. Sverdlovsk, was, in my opinion, really cute!! Wink

Do you mean the man called Yakov Sverdlov, or the city of Sverdlovsk (Yekaterinburg)?

Sverdlov was, indeed, a rather handsome man. He had a unique photographic memory, was a genius of record-keeping, and because of that Lenin made him the chairman of the VTsIK - the executive body that handled various appointments. Sverdlov was exceptional in remembering names, dates, positions, etc. But he was a terrible fanatic, a true bastard without any pity to people. For example, he personally supervised the genocide of the Don Cossacks in 1918-19, when about a million of them were slaughtered, with women and children.

Sverdlov died young (perhaps he had tuberculosis), but some of his relatives later became very prominent Soviet scientists (Alexander Zil'ber, Boris Brondz), and fiction writers (Veniamin Kaverin).
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« Reply #149 on: June 24, 2009, 01:37:07 PM »

Yes, sorry, I meant Sverdlov (real name: Yankel Solomon). Interesting, he seems to have succumbed to flu or typhus at only age 33 (so young!). But some things I've read say he could be a very nice, kind, thoughtful person with the ability to read a person's inner feelings and emotions...It always makes me sad to hear of the evil things people do... Angry So sad because he had this intelligent, charming face... Sad
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« Reply #150 on: June 24, 2009, 04:37:02 PM »

It is important to keep in mind that in the Russian Revolution, the minority of Russians used in the revolutionary activities played a secondary role, and were carefully chosen according to what Marx and Engels describe as Lumpenproletariat.

Lumpenproletariat are the refuse of all classes, outcasts the worst sort of people, willing to do anything they can for their personal benefit, who have no ethics, values and conscience.

Victor Hugo described this kind of people in his book "Les Miserables".

The lumpenproletariat insterts itself in society at all levels. Napoleon and Krushev are two examples of lumpenproletariat at the service of revolutionaries, who inserted themselves in the highest levels of the socio-political sphere. The revolutionaries know the lumpenproletariat does not have the slightest interest to participate in the revolution, but they'll do all they can for personal gain.

Actually one of the goals of the Russian revolution is the lumpenproletariatization russian narod, what some have labelled as "the new soviet man".

Thinking they can outsmart the system, by lies, evil, corruption, and other ungodly means to get personal benefit, people only destroy their dusha, and speed up the lumpenproletariatization process, and before they know it, they are professionals too!

A priest told me about the martyrdom of a group of christians who refused to sign their new identity documents, in which they pledged loyalty to the authorities. He told me "if all russians displayed this kind of loyalty to God, Holy Russia wouldn't have become like Kitezhgrad and it would shine for the amazement of the world even today, as it did in dororevutionary times."


Hmmmmm..OK..That's a pretty good post. I would add though that there was hardly any Prolotarit Class in Russia at the time of the Revolution.. That is one reason ( among many) why it was doomed to failure. But the Revolution was not carried out by the Lumpen alone. It was carried out by soldiers and sailors and city folk mostly with the support of the small middle class which then tried to form a bourgeois Parliament..which quickly failed. The  more Lumpen elements of society did gain a toe hold as you mentioned but a bit later. Most of the early Revolutionaries and Democrats were done away with by Stalin.   

For example, the Kronstadt Sailors were early supporters of the Revolution. But by the time they were suppressed
( Killed) by Trotsky, they were not the same men at all.
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« Reply #151 on: June 24, 2009, 06:26:02 PM »

And to Marc, Heorhij is right in his claim that all those gentlemen who composed the original core group of Soviet leaders were indeed of Jewish ancestory-their surnames are all Jewish  beyond any doubt.
Btw, I was investigating these men and found some really interesting things. Sverdlovsk, was, in my opinion, really cute!! 
 


Here is a link to a complete list of the Leadership of the Soviet Union.. It takes some googleing around but I think you will find that by a large margin the leaders of the Soviet Union were not Jews... Most importantly, the two leaders most central to the Bolshevik Revolution and then later the Great Terror, Lenin and Stalin were not Jews.


http://www.crawfordsworld.com/rob/apcg/Russia/unit4Russia-CCleaders.htm


But let's take note that many early Revolutionaries were Jews, Trotsky being the most influencial.. What meaning to you glean from that?   
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« Reply #152 on: June 24, 2009, 06:57:46 PM »

Yes, sorry, I meant Sverdlov (real name: Yankel Solomon). Interesting, he seems to have succumbed to flu or typhus at only age 33 (so young!). But some things I've read say he could be a very nice, kind, thoughtful person with the ability to read a person's inner feelings and emotions...It always makes me sad to hear of the evil things people do... Angry So sad because he had this intelligent, charming face... Sad

Here's this face:

http://www.hrono.info/biograf/sverdlov.html

And this is Zinov'jev (Apfel'baum, ak.a. Radomysl's'ky):

http://www.hrono.info/biograf/zinovev.html

Kamenev (Rosenfeld):

http://www.hrono.info/biograf/kamenev.html

Kaganovich (BTW, survived them all - died in 1991, being 98 years old):

http://www.hrono.info/biograf/kaganov.html

Sokol'nikov (Girsh Yankelevich Brilliant, presided over the Soviet banking system):

http://www.hrono.info/biograf/sokolnikov.html

Yaroslavsky (Gubel'man; the head of the League of Militant Atheists):

http://www.hrono.info/biograf/yaroslavski.html

Trotsky (Bronshtein):

http://www.hrono.info/biograf/trotski.html

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« Reply #153 on: June 24, 2009, 07:18:47 PM »

Thank you for all these links, Heorhij! I love to be able to connect faces to these men. The top, right-hand photo is my favourite one of Sverdlov/Solomon, though-I think he looks sooo handsome here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Sverdlov

 Alas, it sounds like he had a rather cold, icy personality. Sad But can you imagine how YOUNG he actually was to be in such a position of power?? Shocked The man was only 33 when he died!! It's hard to believe!
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« Reply #154 on: June 24, 2009, 08:29:34 PM »

Ethnic-wise, Lenin was partially Jewish.

You don't know what you are talking about and your false claim that Lenin was a Jew is evidence number one. Lenin's grandfather  was Jewish. No one else. Not his parents, not him. A more classically looking Tarter face would be hard to find.

Okay.  Speaking as one who has no dog in this fight, I just have to point something out.  Heorhij said earlier that Lenin was partially Jewish by ethnicity.  Marc1152 then admitted that Lenin's grandfather was a Jew.  Doesn't this then mean that Lenin was ethnically 25% Jewish, thus making Heorhij correct?  After all, Lenin had to have inherited 1/4 of his genetic code from his grandfather.
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« Reply #155 on: June 24, 2009, 09:09:43 PM »

Ethnic-wise, Lenin was partially Jewish.

You don't know what you are talking about and your false claim that Lenin was a Jew is evidence number one. Lenin's grandfather was Jewish. No one else. Not his parents, not him. A more classically looking Tarter face would be hard to find.

Okay.  Speaking as one who has no dog in this fight, I just have to point something out.  Heorhij said earlier that Lenin was partially Jewish by ethnicity.  Marc1152 then admitted that Lenin's grandfather was a Jew.  Doesn't this then mean that Lenin was ethnically 25% Jewish, thus making Heorhij correct?  After all, Lenin had to have inherited 1/4 of his genetic code from his grandfather.

Only if you are very selective with the posts in this thread and the ongoing debate. The accusation was that all the core leaders of the Revolution  were Jews. That is not true. Lenin was not a Jew. Eventually, that was softend to "Partially Jewish".. Thanks for the addendum. The main argument is defeated though. The core leaders were not all Jewish with the most noteable exception of the central leader of the Revolution, V. I. Lenin and then after him, Stalin.

   
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« Reply #156 on: June 24, 2009, 10:47:19 PM »

The accusation was that all the core leaders of the Revolution  were Jews.

I never made such a statement. I only said that there was a very strong presence of Jews in the top echelons of power in the USSR between years 1917 and ~1938-39.
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« Reply #157 on: June 24, 2009, 10:52:25 PM »

Thank you for all these links, Heorhij! I love to be able to connect faces to these men. The top, right-hand photo is my favourite one of Sverdlov/Solomon, though-I think he looks sooo handsome here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Sverdlov

 Alas, it sounds like he had a rather cold, icy personality. Sad But can you imagine how YOUNG he actually was to be in such a position of power?? Shocked The man was only 33 when he died!! It's hard to believe!

Well, they were all fairly young when the revolt began in 1917... Kaganovich was 20-something when he was made the chairman of his Belorussian city Communist Party branch, and he kept going up and up and up from there.

Here's a biography and a picture of Yagoda (Yehuda), one of the bloodiest executioners... Also handsome, womanizing etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genrikh_Yagoda
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« Reply #158 on: June 24, 2009, 10:57:33 PM »

Quote
Alexander Orlov, also Russian by birth, attributed the following conversation to Yagoda during his last days at the Lubyanka prison before his execution. When asked by his interrogator if he believed in God, Yagoda replied, "From Stalin I deserved nothing but gratitude for my faithful service; from God I deserved the most severe punishment for having violated his commandments thousands of times. Now look where I am and judge for yourself: is there a God, or not..."

From the above link about Yegoda...



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« Reply #159 on: June 24, 2009, 11:32:47 PM »

The accusation was that all the core leaders of the Revolution were Jews.

I never made such a statement. I only said that there was a very strong presence of Jews in the top echelons of power in the USSR between years 1917 and ~1938-39.


That is a difference without a distinction. Other people in this thread claimed that the core leaders were all Jews.

Either way you spin it, I'd like to know what your point is especially since you plopped it down in the middle of some pretty vile anti-semetic statements by others here.
Was it just an ill timed passing observation or are you implying something sinister? I'd really like to know. 
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« Reply #160 on: June 24, 2009, 11:34:34 PM »

Quote
Alexander Orlov, also Russian by birth, attributed the following conversation to Yagoda during his last days at the Lubyanka prison before his execution. When asked by his interrogator if he believed in God, Yagoda replied, "From Stalin I deserved nothing but gratitude for my faithful service; from God I deserved the most severe punishment for having violated his commandments thousands of times. Now look where I am and judge for yourself: is there a God, or not..."

From the above link about Yegoda...


My own grandfather had similar feelings, even though on a much smaller scale. He was a fanatical Komsomol (Young Communist League) member in his youth, in the 1920-s, and, even though he was never in a secret police or repressive apparatus, he had his share of participation in anti-Christian rallies and in the physical demolition of churches. In the 1930-s and 40-s, he made a brilliant career in the Communist party bureaucracy, becoming, in 1948, the Minister of Education of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. However, in the mid-1950-s, when he was about my present age, he suddenly developed a very severe thyroid problem, and was forced to take an early retirement. From that time on, he lived on a small pension, in a small apartment, forgotten by virtually all his former friends, by the people who used to admire and compliment him. The longer he lived, the more remorseful and repentant he became. In his last few years, he was crying almost all the time, saying, "God, have mercy on us all, forgive us, bloody idiots, for everything we did." He never joined any parish till he died (in 1993), and I don't think he ever talked with any Orthodox priest, but he read the Bible and made a lot of remarks on its margins.
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« Reply #161 on: June 24, 2009, 11:37:59 PM »

The accusation was that all the core leaders of the Revolution were Jews.

I never made such a statement. I only said that there was a very strong presence of Jews in the top echelons of power in the USSR between years 1917 and ~1938-39.


That is a difference without a distinction. Other people in this thread claimed that the core leaders were all Jews.

Either way you spin it, I'd like to know what your point is especially since you plopped it down in the middle of some pretty vile anti-semetic statements by others here.
Was it just an ill timed passing observation or are you implying something sinister? I'd really like to know. 

Forgive me, brother, I do not want to talk with you about Jews or, broader, about the history of the Bolshevik abomination, because you do not know it, and I am not in a position to teach you. You already made up your mind. Be well.
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« Reply #162 on: June 29, 2009, 09:38:00 PM »

The accusation was that all the core leaders of the Revolution were Jews.

I never made such a statement. I only said that there was a very strong presence of Jews in the top echelons of power in the USSR between years 1917 and ~1938-39.


That is a difference without a distinction. Other people in this thread claimed that the core leaders were all Jews.

Either way you spin it, I'd like to know what your point is especially since you plopped it down in the middle of some pretty vile anti-semetic statements by others here.
Was it just an ill timed passing observation or are you implying something sinister? I'd really like to know. 

Forgive me, brother, I do not want to talk with you about Jews or, broader, about the history of the Bolshevik abomination, because you do not know it, and I am not in a position to teach you. You already made up your mind. Be well.

You gotta be kidding
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« Reply #163 on: June 29, 2009, 09:55:03 PM »

No Marc1152, Heorhij is serious.

You either don't know, or you are spreading desinformatia, this is why I didn't answer you anymore, at least Heorhij had the decency to turn the sheet, instead of politely ignoring you.

From what Heorhij posts in here, I can see he really knows about the revolution and the role of the jews in this terrible process.

One can see the judaization process in the former USSR today, they are actually the fathers of de-christianization, and the russophobic measures that still go on, which include the creation of artificial nations such as Ukraine and Belarus with the aim to divide the Russian People and turn brother against brother by creating an artificial identity and balkanizing the region.

What's next? The creation  of the Republic of Ruskayakarellia and creating a "ruskayakarellian language" based on a mix of the dialects spoken in Smolenks and Leningrad with other elements borrowed from some finnish dialects? The cutting of electricity supply to that region with the excuse that they were "stealing it from Russia"? The creation of an artificial russkayakarellian identity, where people is mislead into thinking they are not russians, and start hating the russians? The mysterious poisoning of the ruskayakarellian president and an orange revolution? The creation of a russkayakarellian patriarchate under the Moscow Patriarchate, a russkayakarellian Patriarchare under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and and independent russkayakarellian patriarchate? The display of military excercises in the russkayakarellian part of the White Sea, by the USA and Norweigan allies?......






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« Reply #164 on: June 29, 2009, 10:23:43 PM »

No Marc1152, Heorhij is serious.

You either don't know, or you are spreading desinformatia, this is why I didn't answer you anymore, at least Heorhij had the decency to turn the sheet, instead of politely ignoring you.

From what Heorhij posts in here, I can see he really knows about the revolution and the role of the jews in this terrible process.

One can see the judaization process in the former USSR today, they are actually the fathers of de-christianization, and the russophobic measures that still go on, which include the creation of artificial nations such as Ukraine and Belarus with the aim to divide the Russian People and turn brother against brother by creating an artificial identity and balkanizing the region.

What's next? The creation  of the Republic of Ruskayakarellia and creating a "ruskayakarellian language" based on a mix of the dialects spoken in Smolenks and Leningrad with other elements borrowed from some finnish dialects? The cutting of electricity supply to that region with the excuse that they were "stealing it from Russia"? The creation of an artificial russkayakarellian identity, where people is mislead into thinking they are not russians, and start hating the russians? The mysterious poisoning of the ruskayakarellian president and an orange revolution? The creation of a russkayakarellian patriarchate under the Moscow Patriarchate, a russkayakarellian Patriarchare under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and and independent russkayakarellian patriarchate? The display of military excercises in the russkayakarellian part of the White Sea, by the USA and Norweigan allies?......




Er..... I think there are many clear thinking, well educated and reasonable people on this forum. It doesn't take much to figure your game out and I trust most people here have done that by this point. If Heorhij has thrown in with you, then perhaps someone with more influence with him than I can take him aside and explain why that may not be a such good idea.

Your idea's and point of view are not only in error but unwholesome.

Lord have mercy on you.
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« Reply #165 on: June 29, 2009, 10:31:00 PM »

IPC wrote:

"What's next? The creation  of the Republic of Ruskayakarellia and creating a "ruskayakarellian language" based on a mix of the dialects spoken in Smolenks and Leningrad with other elements borrowed from some finnish dialects?"

Maybe in the alternate universe that you inhabit!  Grin
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« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2009, 08:35:23 AM »

Well, where IPC and I begin to differ is the issue of "separatism." I do not believe for one second that Jews were in any way responsible for creation of the free, independent, self-governing Ukrainian state. The struggle for such a state began with Khmel'nyts'kyj in 1648, continued with Mazepa in 1709, and then with His Majesty Het'man Pavlo Skoropads'kyj in 1917-18, Prof. Mykhailo Hrushevs'kyj and the Dyrektorija in 1917-1920, Chief Otaman Symon Petlyura in 1918-21, Chief Providnyk Stepan Bandera in 1941-1955, and, finally, with the Rukh ("Movement") of the 1960-s - 2000-s. There was certainly zero Jewish influence on any of the above mentioned personalities or organizations they represented and directed.

In today's Ukraine, politicians of the Jewish ethnicity are active "across the isle," all over the spectrum of political parties and movements, from Ukrainian nationalist to rabidly pro-Russian and anti-Ukrainian. For example, Aleksandr Feldman was active in the Yulia Tymoshenko BYuT political block together with a renowned conservative, aggressive Ukrainian nationalist Stepan Khmara (who recently left BYuT); on the other hand, one very anti-Ukrainian political party prominent in the late 1990-s - early 2000-s, called "Social Democratic Party of Ukraine (United)" (Ukrainian acronym SDPU(o)), had so many Jewish representatives that it got nicknamed "Social Democratic Party of Ukraine (Circumsized)" (word play, as "O" in Ukrainian may stand for "Objednana" - United" or "Obrizani" - Circumcized").

Again, I do not believe in conspiracy theories like the global Jewish plot aimed at destroying every good thing in the world. I do not believe that the entire tragedy of the Bolshevik revolt of 1917 was scripted, staged in some mystery-covered headquarters of the invisible global Jewish government. It was a lot more complicated than that. But I do not believe, either, that Jews in the former USSR were a small and violently repressed religious minority - especially in the USSR's early years, 1917-1938. They were not small in that they, in spite of making up only ~2% of the population of the Soviet Union, had an extremely strong, dominating presence in all Soviet governmental offices - People's Comissariats, Politotdels (political leadership) of the Red Army, secret police, punitive/repressive/terror organs like Gulag, etc. They were entirely secular, atheist (and yet Jewish by their own self-determination), and very, very systematically, agressively, cruelly anti-Christian and anti-Orthodox. They were a very integral part of the demonic Communist state machine. It would hardly achieve its goals without their active and very willing participation. 

P.S. I am afraid this thread went way beyond the OP as well as of the scope of the Religious Issues forum, so we should, perhaps, start a new thread - probably better on the private Politics forum, especially where we talk about the today's political issues.
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« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2009, 10:47:30 AM »

the russophobic measures that still go on, which include the creation of artificial nations such as Ukraine and Belarus with the aim to divide the Russian People and turn brother against brother by creating an artificial identity and balkanizing the region.

 Huh Huh  "artificial"?  Are you making the claim that all of the people within the borders of the former Soviet Union are "Russian"?  I know some people whose ancestors came to the US from the Ukraine some generations back (2 at least) and they are quite clear that they are of Ukrainian background. 

What of the various peoples in other areas such as Georgia and Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan etc etc?  Are they all "really Russians"?


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« Reply #168 on: June 30, 2009, 11:08:59 AM »

the russophobic measures that still go on, which include the creation of artificial nations such as Ukraine and Belarus with the aim to divide the Russian People and turn brother against brother by creating an artificial identity and balkanizing the region.

 Huh Huh  "artificial"?  Are you making the claim that all of the people within the borders of the former Soviet Union are "Russian"?  I know some people whose ancestors came to the US from the Ukraine some generations back (2 at least) and they are quite clear that they are of Ukrainian background. 

What of the various peoples in other areas such as Georgia and Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan etc etc?  Are they all "really Russians"?


Ahhh... it's so sad for me to see this strange Great Russian lack of understanding of the right of people to determine themselves as a nation...

In 1918, Baron Peter Wrangel, then a representative of Gen. Anton Denikin (the chief commander of the "Armed Forces of the South of Russia," the "White Guards") - and later himself the chief commander of the White army - met with His Majesty Het'man Pavlo Skoropads'ky in Kyiv. His Majesty tried to explain to him that Ukraine is real and that Ukraine needs a full SUPPORT of the White army, rather than the total disregard from the Whites, who still believed in the "One Indivisible Russia" and called Ukrainians "separatists." Wrangel did not listen... and we know the result... Sad
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« Reply #169 on: June 30, 2009, 11:15:42 AM »

So you've seen this before, Heorhij?  There is a common attitude in some quarters of "Everyone is Russian" even if they say that they aren't? 

Sigh.

 Yes, I know what came of the White Army. 
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« Reply #170 on: June 30, 2009, 11:43:10 AM »

Marc1152  first of all, I'm not grouping with anyone, I just support people who are sensible, and give accurate facts whomever they might be.

Eugenio, the sole idea of the formation of an independent nation such as Belarus, would have sound as a wild fantasy lets say, 30 years ago. This is why I made that analogy.

The Ukranian case is a different thing, we can trace separatist movements there back in the 17th century, and Ukraine in my opinion has a solid foundation for it's creation as an independent state.

What I wanted to point out is the nationalistic radical russophobic movements, flowing from the radical revolutionary ideology.

In the specific case of Ukraine, there is the historical and legitimate independence movement, and the radical new nationalism, which has cause so much harm in the region.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories, and I think it would be wrong to blame all what's happening in our beloved Russia to a specific group, but the role of specific groups in some world happenings is more than evident.

Taking a closer look at Ukraine, we can see the legitimate independence movement and the legitimate Ukrainian Church, totally ruined by the different antagonistic actors such as the neo-nationalistics, the pro-European Union, the pro-USA faction, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and the Roman Catholic Church, not to mention the other loose groups.

This is nothing else than the continuation of the very same dialectical materialism planted in the russian. And what's the origin of dialectical materialism? The jewish leaders like Marx, and Lenin among others.

The issue is not separatism, the issue is the intestine chaos and conflicts specifically tailored and perfected to destroy the identity and real roots of individuals and create a new synthetic malleable man with no values, and no roots, with an imaginary, shallow, and feeble idea of who he really is.

People in the Russian Empire, had solid roots, and firm faith, they knew who they were, both as nations, and as subjects of the Empire, and this is precisely what the revolutionary jews came to destroy.

In the case of Ukraine, I would say, yes, it has been an authentic nation, but the way it was recently created, it's totally artificial.





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« Reply #171 on: July 01, 2009, 01:12:28 AM »

The world as IPC sees it:
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« Reply #172 on: July 01, 2009, 01:18:28 AM »

The world as IPC sees it:

Love the map!!! Grin

But I am confused... I came back to have a read of this thread to see what is being said about Jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church but it is now all about the Jewish Revolution in Russia.
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« Reply #173 on: July 01, 2009, 04:56:26 AM »

I love it too!! An absurd and muddled plot worthy of a Marx Brothers picture - hey, they already did it with Duck Souplaugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #174 on: July 01, 2009, 01:49:21 PM »

The world as IPC sees it:

Love the map!!! Grin

But I am confused... I came back to have a read of this thread to see what is being said about Jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church but it is now all about the Jewish Revolution in Russia.

Indeed, the thread probably should have been split off at some point. However, at this point, we are almost  done anyway.
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« Reply #175 on: July 01, 2009, 02:08:25 PM »

I finally got time to look at the link offered up earlier to buttress the claim that the Soviet Revolution was "dominated by Jews".... Let me just say again that I have no argument over the fact that nearly all Jews in Russia sided with the Revolution. But there was an obviously  anti-semitic implication to this pronouncement.

In any event, I went to the web page offered up http://www.christianparty.net/
There you will find a page with a list of Russian sounding names, some of which are recognizable as former Revolutionary Leaders. Others are just lists of names of God knows who. After most names is the word "JEW " after a few there is some other designation like "Russian" or next to Stalin "Georgian".But the point is clear: Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew .....

If you look further, you get the fuller picture. Not only were the leaders of the Russian Revolution nearly all "JEWS" but it seems that EVERYBODY this group dislikes is a...JEW !!!

John McCain... JEW !  His father, Admiral McCain...JEW..  President Roosevelt .. JEW !  Winston Churchill ... JEW ! George Bush... JEW ! Lenin .. JEW !

And for the grand finale... how to handle Hitler for a Russian Orthodox Audience.. He's a hard sell to the Russians so you cant appear to be on his side or have his ideas.. But these folks have found a novel solution... Ready for it??  Drum roll ( cause it's a good one)

Scroll down

Scroll down

Scroll down

Ready

Set ?

They claim HITLER was "really"..... You guessed it... A JEW !!!!

So this whole argument about Jews in the Revolution needs to be put into the entire context of this Nut Case World View and dismissed for what it is, truth mixed with a bigger lie.. Always the strategy of the "Real" Evil One.

Defense rests your honor.

 
 

 
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« Reply #176 on: July 01, 2009, 02:58:36 PM »

One can see the judaization process in the former USSR today, they are actually the fathers of de-christianization, and the russophobic measures that still go on, which include the creation of artificial nations such as Ukraine and Belarus with the aim to divide the Russian People and turn brother against brother by creating an artificial identity and balkanizing the region.

Yeah, all Ukrainian rulers were disguished Jews, even Khmielnicky, who was impalementing his brothers in faith.

The first independant Belarusian independant country appeared in the late 10th century - the Principality of Polotsk.
The battles over Niamiha and Orsza are the best arguments for the "unity of Russian people".
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« Reply #177 on: July 02, 2009, 04:18:12 PM »

I finally got time to look at the link offered up earlier to buttress the claim that the Soviet Revolution was "dominated by Jews".... Let me just say again that I have no argument over the fact that nearly all Jews in Russia sided with the Revolution. But there was an obviously  anti-semitic implication to this pronouncement.

In any event, I went to the web page offered up http://www.christianparty.net/
There you will find a page with a list of Russian sounding names, some of which are recognizable as former Revolutionary Leaders. Others are just lists of names of God knows who. After most names is the word "JEW " after a few there is some other designation like "Russian" or next to Stalin "Georgian".But the point is clear: Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew .....

If you look further, you get the fuller picture. Not only were the leaders of the Russian Revolution nearly all "JEWS" but it seems that EVERYBODY this group dislikes is a...JEW !!!

John McCain... JEW !  His father, Admiral McCain...JEW..  President Roosevelt .. JEW !  Winston Churchill ... JEW ! George Bush... JEW ! Lenin .. JEW !

And for the grand finale... how to handle Hitler for a Russian Orthodox Audience.. He's a hard sell to the Russians so you cant appear to be on his side or have his ideas.. But these folks have found a novel solution... Ready for it??  Drum roll ( cause it's a good one)

Scroll down

Scroll down

Scroll down

Ready

Set ?

They claim HITLER was "really"..... You guessed it... A JEW !!!!

So this whole argument about Jews in the Revolution needs to be put into the entire context of this Nut Case World View and dismissed for what it is, truth mixed with a bigger lie.. Always the strategy of the "Real" Evil One.

Defense rests your honor.

 
 

Is there anyone who was not a Jew or did not have  Jewish ancestry?
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« Reply #178 on: July 02, 2009, 07:44:50 PM »

I finally got time to look at the link offered up earlier to buttress the claim that the Soviet Revolution was "dominated by Jews".... Let me just say again that I have no argument over the fact that nearly all Jews in Russia sided with the Revolution. But there was an obviously anti-semitic implication to this pronouncement.

In any event, I went to the web page offered up http://www.christianparty.net/
There you will find a page with a list of Russian sounding names, some of which are recognizable as former Revolutionary Leaders. Others are just lists of names of God knows who. After most names is the word "JEW " after a few there is some other designation like "Russian" or next to Stalin "Georgian".But the point is clear: Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew .....

If you look further, you get the fuller picture. Not only were the leaders of the Russian Revolution nearly all "JEWS" but it seems that EVERYBODY this group dislikes is a...JEW !!!

John McCain... JEW !  His father, Admiral McCain...JEW..  President Roosevelt .. JEW !  Winston Churchill ... JEW ! George Bush... JEW ! Lenin .. JEW !

And for the grand finale... how to handle Hitler for a Russian Orthodox Audience.. He's a hard sell to the Russians so you cant appear to be on his side or have his ideas.. But these folks have found a novel solution... Ready for it??  Drum roll ( cause it's a good one)

Scroll down

Scroll down

Scroll down

Ready

Set ?

They claim HITLER was "really"..... You guessed it... A JEW !!!!

So this whole argument about Jews in the Revolution needs to be put into the entire context of this Nut Case World View and dismissed for what it is, truth mixed with a bigger lie.. Always the strategy of the "Real" Evil One.

Defense rests your honor.

 
 

Is there anyone who was not a Jew or did not have  Jewish ancestry?

It depends what you mean. If you are referring to all moderate or liberal leaders of the modern era  they list them as all "Jews".. If you mean leaders of Soviet Russia they listed a few well known people as either Russian or Georgian.. It would be a tough sell to list Stalin as anything else.   

I didnt see any mention of the Pope but who knows, that accent could be evidence.
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« Reply #179 on: July 02, 2009, 10:32:55 PM »

It depends what you mean. If you are referring to all moderate or liberal leaders of the modern era  they list them as all "Jews".. If you mean leaders of Soviet Russia they listed a few well known people as either Russian or Georgian.. It would be a tough sell to list Stalin as anything else.   

I didnt see any mention of the Pope but who knows, that accent could be evidence.

I checked the site out as well.  They didn't need to mention the Bishop of Rome as being a Jew.  There's a whole page about how the evils and wrongness of the RCs. Great Googaly-Moogaly!  What a load of dingoes kidneys.

If *This* is supposed to be some kind of authority I'm a three-toed sloth (and if I were, I wouldn't be able to type, since I'd be hanging upside down in a tree)
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
stanley123
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« Reply #180 on: July 03, 2009, 01:43:08 AM »

I finally got time to look at the link offered up earlier to buttress the claim that the Soviet Revolution was "dominated by Jews".... Let me just say again that I have no argument over the fact that nearly all Jews in Russia sided with the Revolution. But there was an obviously anti-semitic implication to this pronouncement.

In any event, I went to the web page offered up http://www.christianparty.net/
There you will find a page with a list of Russian sounding names, some of which are recognizable as former Revolutionary Leaders. Others are just lists of names of God knows who. After most names is the word "JEW " after a few there is some other designation like "Russian" or next to Stalin "Georgian".But the point is clear: Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew .....

If you look further, you get the fuller picture. Not only were the leaders of the Russian Revolution nearly all "JEWS" but it seems that EVERYBODY this group dislikes is a...JEW !!!

John McCain... JEW !  His father, Admiral McCain...JEW..  President Roosevelt .. JEW !  Winston Churchill ... JEW ! George Bush... JEW ! Lenin .. JEW !

And for the grand finale... how to handle Hitler for a Russian Orthodox Audience.. He's a hard sell to the Russians so you cant appear to be on his side or have his ideas.. But these folks have found a novel solution... Ready for it??  Drum roll ( cause it's a good one)

Scroll down

Scroll down

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Ready

Set ?

They claim HITLER was "really"..... You guessed it... A JEW !!!!

So this whole argument about Jews in the Revolution needs to be put into the entire context of this Nut Case World View and dismissed for what it is, truth mixed with a bigger lie.. Always the strategy of the "Real" Evil One.

Defense rests your honor.

 
 

Is there anyone who was not a Jew or did not have  Jewish ancestry?

It depends what you mean. If you are referring to all moderate or liberal leaders of the modern era  they list them as all "Jews".. If you mean leaders of Soviet Russia they listed a few well known people as either Russian or Georgian.. It would be a tough sell to list Stalin as anything else.   

I didnt see any mention of the Pope but who knows, that accent could be evidence.
It was supposed to be a little joke. Anyway, speaking about Popes who are Jewish,  although the father of Pope John Paul II was an ethnic Pole, the story is that the mother of John Paul II, Emilia Kaczorowski - Emily Katz in English - was Jewish and that she was the daughter of Feliks Kaczowski, a businessman from Biala-Bielsko in Poland. Katz is a common surname amongst East European Jewish families. Emilia’s mother, the Pope’s grandmother, was Maria Anna Scholz. Scholz, or Schulze, is also a common surname among Jews, as is Rybicka, or Ryback, which is the surname of the Pope’s great-grandmother Zuzanna.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 01:43:52 AM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #181 on: July 03, 2009, 09:21:46 AM »

This story about the late John Paul II's mother's name "translating" as Emily Katz reminds me of a jest of my father's.  He would mention the "Famous Italian composer Joe Green".  Well that might be what Giuseppe Verdi would be in English, but it wasn't really his name and if someone seriously referred to him by that name it would be wrong. 
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
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