Author Topic: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH  (Read 16859 times)

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Offline IPC

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JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« on: June 16, 2009, 09:22:07 PM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.

Is there any Roman Catholic, or former Roman Catholic in this forum that has seen this?



« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 09:22:47 PM by Pravoslav09 »
THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2009, 10:20:45 PM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.

Is there any Roman Catholic, or former Roman Catholic in this forum that has seen this?





Why are you praying with heretics, that you notice this, O more Orthodox than thou? ::) :police:
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 10:21:14 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Ebor

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2009, 11:22:07 PM »
Which RC churches in what cities, please?  Did you witness this first hand or just hear about it? 
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Offline sdcheung

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 12:01:19 AM »


In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.



Sounds like a Hippie mass, or a hare Krishna catholic mass..

Guitars and Drums?

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Offline sdcheung

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2009, 12:02:02 AM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.

Is there any Roman Catholic, or former Roman Catholic in this forum that has seen this?





Why are you praying with heretics, that you notice this, O more Orthodox than thou? ::) :police:

I usually do it to get a laugh.

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2009, 12:14:17 AM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.


I am gobsmacked that Bishop Diomid gives his blessing for members of the Russian Zarist Church to attend Roman Catholic services!!

« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 12:26:11 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline sdcheung

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 12:24:25 AM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.


I am gobsmacked the Bishop Diomid gives his blessing for members of the Russian Zarist Church to attend Roman Catholic services!!



maybe it was a weekday service.
It's called Research, and "Roman Catholic studies", study them in their native habitat. i do it all the time.

It's called a "Zoo"

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Offline LBK

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2009, 12:28:16 AM »
maybe it was a weekday service.
It's called Research, and "Roman Catholic studies", study them in their native habitat. i do it all the time.

It's called a "Zoo"

What a truly pleasant and loving character you are, so full of love and compassion for your fellow man ...  :P  :P  :P
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 12:28:34 AM by LBK »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2009, 12:31:12 AM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.


I am gobsmacked the Bishop Diomid gives his blessing for members of the Russian Zarist Church to attend Roman Catholic services!!



maybe it was a weekday service.

I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   

Offline sdcheung

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2009, 12:32:21 AM »
maybe it was a weekday service.
It's called Research, and "Roman Catholic studies", study them in their native habitat. i do it all the time.

It's called a "Zoo"

What a truly pleasant and loving character you are, so full of love and compassion for your fellow man ...  :P  :P  :P

...thank you.

Keep Breed Mixing, and this Maine Coon Cat will be the last of it's kind. /\
No profanities in your sig line if you're going to post in the public forum.

Offline sdcheung

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2009, 12:33:18 AM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.


I am gobsmacked the Bishop Diomid gives his blessing for members of the Russian Zarist Church to attend Roman Catholic services!!



maybe it was a weekday service.

I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   

spocks eye brow lift/

Semitic Research (semitic studies)?

If he really wanted to get in the min dof one, he should just open up a Jewish newspaper.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 12:34:14 AM by sdcheung »

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Offline lubeltri

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2009, 12:34:51 AM »
Well, the other unsubstantiated calumnies notwithstanding, at least he described us as a "church."  ;)

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2009, 12:35:37 AM »
Well, the other unsubstantiated calumnies notwithstanding, at least he described us as a "church."  ;)

Thank God for small mercies, I suppose ....  ::) ::) :P :P
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2009, 12:42:22 AM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.


I am gobsmacked the Bishop Diomid gives his blessing for members of the Russian Zarist Church to attend Roman Catholic services!!



maybe it was a weekday service.

I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   

spocks eye brow lift/

Semitic Research (semitic studies)?

If he really wanted to get in the mind of one, he should just open up a Jewish newspaper.

Exactly,  you don't have to become a frequenter of brothels to study the evils of prostitution.   Nor does Pravoslav09 need to attend the services of what Bishop Diomod has described as the Great Whore of the Book of Revelation sitting on the Seven Hills to learn about the RCs.  The idea that Bp Diomid blesses his faithful to so such things is just mindboggling.  We are getting into very murky waters.

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2009, 01:05:31 AM »
Well, the other unsubstantiated calumnies notwithstanding, at least he described us as a "church."  ;)

Yeah, but really we all know that he meant Parasynagogue of Satan!  Or was the Great Whore of the Book of Revelation sitting on the Seven Hills?  ;)
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2009, 01:41:50 AM »
I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   
I have a question: Are you a priest? I am not trying to be smart here, I just don't know. If you are, then I'd like to ask you if making such remarks are in any way edifying? With all due respect, of course.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 01:42:54 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2009, 01:55:18 AM »
I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   
I have a question: Are you a priest?

I think that Forum Rules prevent you asking and me answering personal questions so I'll PM you.

Quote
If you are, then I'd like to ask you if making such remarks are in any way edifying?

The remarks proceed from

1. a sense of frustration and a sense of shame that now we seem to have finished trashing the Jews we are moving on to the Catholics

2. a belief that humour can help dissipate such irascibility

3. the term "parasynagogue of Satan" is applied by the Fathers to schismatic and heretical church groups and so it is possible to follow their example and use it in an Orthodox way.... but in this thread I am using it only ironically.

4.  "not edifying"?   I have found both the thread on the Jews and now this thread on Catholics to be completely disedifying and utterly shameful (imho.)  I am pleased that neither of them can be credited to members of my own Church.  One way to deal with the ghastliness of what is being said is to prick the bubble and introduce a bit of lighthearted lampoonery.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2009, 02:20:52 AM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.

Is there any Roman Catholic, or former Roman Catholic in this forum that has seen this?





Why are you praying with heretics, that you notice this, O more Orthodox than thou? ::) :police:

 :laugh:
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Offline stanley123

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2009, 03:31:51 AM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

During the solemn night christmas mass services in Roman Catholic Cathedrals, I've noticed a particular jewish tradition, 7 high ranking prelates (cardinals, archbishops, loca vicar) stand in front of the altar, and the presiding prelate gives a brief comment on the ritual saying "we are now going to give you the blessing as our elder jewish brothers, lower your heads, and at the end of each prayer, you say amen" they lift one of their hands each, and start reciting the blessing prayers.

In other Roman Catholic Masses, I've noticed the use of a very popular jewish anthem "eveinu shalom alehem" sung in the company of guitarrs and drums.

Is there any Roman Catholic, or former Roman Catholic in this forum that has seen this?
Yes.
Dear friends:
There is a group of Hebrew Catholics who have formed an interesting website: the Association of Hebrew Catholics.
http://hebrewcatholic.org/

 The site has many articles and links to biographies of famous Hebrew Catholics, and as well has a link to the site: http://www.liturgica.com/html/litEOLitEarly.jsp
Here we find that
“Early Christianity began with a basic form that was a modified form of the Jewish Synagogue rite (or synaxis) that was coupled with a Eucharistic service (a modified Temple rite). Together these two services composed the core of the early liturgy. The earliest liturgical rites were very Jewish in form, for the earliest Christians were Jews who believed their Messiah had come in the person of Jesus Christ.”
“Among the earliest pieces of Eastern Orthodox liturgical music, which attest to this transition, is the hymn "O Gladsome Light." This hymn is recited or sung every evening at the setting of the sun during Vespers. The text of this hymn was cited by St. Justin the Martyr in about 150 A.D. in his dialogue with Trypho. Although it pre-dated the Byzantium, it is referred to as "Byzantine." It is clearly Greek in its musical form and composition, while it possesses a text that is clearly Jewish in origin and conforms to the Jewish calendar in which the day ends and begins at sunset.”
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 03:33:00 AM by stanley123 »

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2009, 01:25:59 PM »
I've highlighted the sections of Pravoslav09's letter which show his attendance at the Parasynagogue of Satan is a regular event.   
I have a question: Are you a priest?

I think that Forum Rules prevent you asking and me answering personal questions so I'll PM you.

Quote
If you are, then I'd like to ask you if making such remarks are in any way edifying?

The remarks proceed from

1. a sense of frustration and a sense of shame that now we seem to have finished trashing the Jews we are moving on to the Catholics

2. a belief that humour can help dissipate such irascibility

3. the term "parasynagogue of Satan" is applied by the Fathers to schismatic and heretical church groups and so it is possible to follow their example and use it in an Orthodox way.... but in this thread I am using it only ironically.

4.  "not edifying"?   I have found both the thread on the Jews and now this thread on Catholics to be completely disedifying and utterly shameful (imho.)  I am pleased that neither of them can be credited to members of my own Church.  One way to deal with the ghastliness of what is being said is to prick the bubble and introduce a bit of lighthearted lampoonery.
No need to PM me, it's none of my business anyway. Thank you
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline AlexanderOfBergamo

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2009, 02:35:39 PM »
I witnessed many RC rites in the parish I grew up, played with guitars, drums and children singing Allelujah shaking and clapping their hands as if they were at a gospel concert...
As my professor of philosophy always said: Abyssus abyssum clamat...
On the question of Hebrew Catholicism, I just wonder why they didn't adopt the more genuine "Divine Liturgy of st James". After all, it was developped after Jewish worship by one of the most important Judeo Christians of the Apostolic Age...

In Christ,   Alex
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2009, 02:58:07 PM »
I witnessed many RC rites in the parish I grew up, played with guitars, drums and children singing Allelujah shaking and clapping their hands as if they were at a gospel concert...
As my professor of philosophy always said: Abyssus abyssum clamat...
On the question of Hebrew Catholicism, I just wonder why they didn't adopt the more genuine "Divine Liturgy of st James". After all, it was developped after Jewish worship by one of the most important Judeo Christians of the Apostolic Age...

In Christ,   Alex
This has chased many Catholics away from the Church. It has made me look elsewhere for "genuine" worship.

To tell you the truth, I can't stand these guitar Masses. It drives me nuts because it's nothing like what I grew up with. Might as well be a Lutheran!

I think that people in the Vatican need to overhaul the hippie-influenced Mass. Better yet, make the Extraordinary Latin Mass the norm, and the hippie Mass the eccentric, extra-extraordinary Mass for those that like that kind of stuff.

Sorry, but this makes me express the way I feel about the modern Mass and it seems no one in the upper echolon is listening.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 02:59:11 PM by ChristusDominus »
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline lubeltri

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2009, 04:36:43 PM »
I witnessed many RC rites in the parish I grew up, played with guitars, drums and children singing Allelujah shaking and clapping their hands as if they were at a gospel concert...
As my professor of philosophy always said: Abyssus abyssum clamat...
On the question of Hebrew Catholicism, I just wonder why they didn't adopt the more genuine "Divine Liturgy of st James". After all, it was developped after Jewish worship by one of the most important Judeo Christians of the Apostolic Age...

In Christ,   Alex
This has chased many Catholics away from the Church. It has made me look elsewhere for "genuine" worship.

To tell you the truth, I can't stand these guitar Masses. It drives me nuts because it's nothing like what I grew up with. Might as well be a Lutheran!

I think that people in the Vatican need to overhaul the hippie-influenced Mass. Better yet, make the Extraordinary Latin Mass the norm, and the hippie Mass the eccentric, extra-extraordinary Mass for those that like that kind of stuff.

Sorry, but this makes me express the way I feel about the modern Mass and it seems no one in the upper echolon is listening.

Contrary to rumors, the Holy See isn't all powerful. They can't police every parish, of which there are 220,000 worldwide.. What you describe isn't a legitimate option but rather is a liturgical abuse.

Catholics, when they see abuses, are to speak to the priest about them. If that fails to resolve the problem, Catholics are to report abuses to their local bishop. Failing that, they are then to report to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in Rome.

Or, if someone wishes to remain passive, he can simply go to another parish. There are 220,000 choices.

I do not take seriously anyone who leaves for another communion simply because he was not happy with the liturgy at his parish.

--

All that said, certainly there are serious problems with the liturgy in many places. The Holy See is working hard at fixing this, along with increasing numbers of bishops and priests. The laity also must play a part.

One of the better websites to watch this liturgical renewal unfold is here: http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/

Another good one: wdtprs.com





Offline stanley123

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2009, 05:04:07 PM »
I witnessed many RC rites in the parish I grew up, played with guitars, drums and children singing Allelujah shaking and clapping their hands as if they were at a gospel concert...
As my professor of philosophy always said: Abyssus abyssum clamat...
On the question of Hebrew Catholicism, I just wonder why they didn't adopt the more genuine "Divine Liturgy of st James". After all, it was developped after Jewish worship by one of the most important Judeo Christians of the Apostolic Age...

In Christ,   Alex
This has chased many Catholics away from the Church. It has made me look elsewhere for "genuine" worship.

To tell you the truth, I can't stand these guitar Masses. It drives me nuts because it's nothing like what I grew up with. Might as well be a Lutheran!

I think that people in the Vatican need to overhaul the hippie-influenced Mass. Better yet, make the Extraordinary Latin Mass the norm, and the hippie Mass the eccentric, extra-extraordinary Mass for those that like that kind of stuff.

Sorry, but this makes me express the way I feel about the modern Mass and it seems no one in the upper echolon is listening.

Contrary to rumors, the Holy See isn't all powerful. They can't police every parish, of which there are 220,000 worldwide.. What you describe isn't a legitimate option but rather is a liturgical abuse.

Catholics, when they see abuses, are to speak to the priest about them. If that fails to resolve the problem, Catholics are to report abuses to their local bishop. Failing that, they are then to report to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in Rome.

Or, if someone wishes to remain passive, he can simply go to another parish. There are 220,000 choices.

I do not take seriously anyone who leaves for another communion simply because he was not happy with the liturgy at his parish.

--

All that said, certainly there are serious problems with the liturgy in many places. The Holy See is working hard at fixing this, along with increasing numbers of bishops and priests. The laity also must play a part.

One of the better websites to watch this liturgical renewal unfold is here: http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/

Another good one: wdtprs.com





How come there are so many so-called abuse problems with the Catholic liturgy and not so many with the Eastern Orthodox liturgies?

Offline AlexanderOfBergamo

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2009, 05:18:37 PM »
Maybe because our liturgy is felt of as an inspired expression of the Faith... we have a greater respect for liturgy as if it were a book of the Bible.
Anyway, I think that RCs should get back to the Tridentine Mass, at least they would have a beautiful rite for worship, with wonderful singing and a priest praying eastwards... Huh, I'm feeling nostalgic for a past I unfortunately never witnessed...
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2009, 05:48:45 PM »
How come there are so many so-called abuse problems with the Catholic liturgy and not so many with the Eastern Orthodox liturgies?

Why did the East fall under the devastating scourge of Iconoclasm centuries ago while the West was untouched? This too is a complicated question difficult to answer.

Among others, I personally think one of the reasons for today is that most Eastern Orthodox remain in still-conservative cultures. The numbers of Orthodox in countries like America are very small and fragmented.

As for Catholicism, it is much more difficult to find much liturgical abuse in countries like Mexico and Poland than in America or Western Europe, where many Catholics have been corrupted by modernism and secularism.





Offline NorthernPines

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2009, 06:29:19 PM »
I've noticed the introduction of jewish traditions in the Roman Catholic Church.

You mean like iconography, chanting, burning incense, candles, colorful vestments, antiphonal singing, chanting the psalms, reading the Old Testament, praying Liturgically, celebrating feasts, fasting twice a week, having a male priesthood, the concept of the universal priesthood of all believers, having a "Sacrifice", confession before a priest, baptism, anointing with oil; you mean Jewish traditions like these? Yeah, shocking ain't it! :)







Offline IPC

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2009, 10:08:21 PM »
Dear Ebor,

I witnessed all this first hand.

The solemn high christmass mass with the 7 ministres giving the blessing jewish style. One time I saw that ritual in a Parrish of the Franciscan Order.

Masses where the jewish anthem is sung, accompanied by guitar and bongos. Mostly I saw that in a parrish of the Augustinian Recolletto Order.

I wouldn't mention it if it was just an urban legend, or hear and say.

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.

Not because something is not happening in your community, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your church (Roman Catholic Church) at all.


THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.

Offline IPC

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2009, 10:34:28 PM »
Ebor the most recent was about a couple of months ago, in the temple of St Monique from the Order of Augustinus Recolletus.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 10:47:08 PM by Pravoslav09 »
THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.

Offline Ebor

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2009, 10:36:31 PM »
Thank you for your reply. In which city(ies)/country(ies) did you witness this please and was it recently?
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2009, 11:36:44 PM »
When Roman Catholics start reciting the Talmud, then we'll talk. ;)
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2009, 12:06:09 AM »
Dear Ebor,

I witnessed all this first hand.

The solemn high christmass mass with the 7 ministres giving the blessing jewish style. One time I saw that ritual in a Parrish of the Franciscan Order.

Masses where the jewish anthem is sung, accompanied by guitar and bongos. Mostly I saw that in a parrish of the Augustinian Recolletto Order.

I wouldn't mention it if it was just an urban legend, or hear and say.

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.

Not because something is not happening in your community, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your church (Roman Catholic Church) at all.




So you are admitting you pray with both Jews and heretics often enough that you can make a valid comparison and indentification between their rituals, huh?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2009, 12:37:10 AM »
Dear Ebor,

I witnessed all this first hand.

The solemn high christmass mass with the 7 ministres giving the blessing jewish style. One time I saw that ritual in a Parrish of the Franciscan Order.

Masses where the jewish anthem is sung, accompanied by guitar and bongos. Mostly I saw that in a parrish of the Augustinian Recolletto Order.

I wouldn't mention it if it was just an urban legend, or hear and say.

I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.

Not because something is not happening in your community, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in your church (Roman Catholic Church) at all.




So you are admitting you pray with both Jews and heretics often enough that you can make a valid comparison and indentification between their rituals, huh?
Yeah, you can't pray with us heretics. :o
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Offline stanley123

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2009, 12:56:33 AM »
I've noticed that the Roman Catholic Church is not homogeneous, it is divided in many groups, and each group has their own traditions.
This is true.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2009, 01:17:58 AM »
Yeah, you can't pray with us heretics. :o

To be fair, he was poking fun at Pravoslav09, not taking a stab at Roman Catholics.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 01:18:16 AM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2009, 01:18:18 AM »

Why did the East fall under the devastating scourge of Iconoclasm centuries ago while the West was untouched? This too is a complicated question difficult to answer.

But still, the icons were restored to our Churches and for the last 1000 years they have been the glory of the Orthodox East.

Maybe God allowed your Liturgy to be destroyed for a similar reason and in the future your ancient Liturgy will return in all it glory and soar to new heights of beauty.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2009, 08:58:19 AM »

Why did the East fall under the devastating scourge of Iconoclasm centuries ago while the West was untouched? This too is a complicated question difficult to answer.

But still, the icons were restored to our Churches and for the last 1000 years they have been the glory of the Orthodox East.

Maybe God allowed your Liturgy to be destroyed for a similar reason and in the future your ancient Liturgy will return in all it glory and soar to new heights of beauty.

Very true. Before this trial, we took our liturgical patrimony for granted.

Now we don't.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2009, 09:09:04 AM »
Yeah, you can't pray with us heretics. :o

To be fair, he was poking fun at Pravoslav09, not taking a stab at Roman Catholics.
That, and IIRC he also listed as one of the crimes of what he calls the Soviet Church, and the Orthodox Church calls the Patriarchate of Moscow, is that it's ecumenically minded and the PoM cohorts with heretics whenever he is not torturing "True Orthodox," kicking puppies or drowning kittens.
In fact, I think someone posted ALL the canons against this (I mean the praying with heretics.  I don't know if kicking puppies or drowning kittens are uncanonical acts. Sorry PETA).
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 09:12:44 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2009, 09:11:51 AM »

Why did the East fall under the devastating scourge of Iconoclasm centuries ago while the West was untouched? This too is a complicated question difficult to answer.

But still, the icons were restored to our Churches and for the last 1000 years they have been the glory of the Orthodox East.

Maybe God allowed your Liturgy to be destroyed for a similar reason and in the future your ancient Liturgy will return in all it glory and soar to new heights of beauty.

Very true. Before this trial, we took our liturgical patrimony for granted.

Now we don't.

You all also seem to be ridding yourself of a lot of dead weight of chaff.  The cafeteria is not only closed, having failed inspection, the Board of Health has condemned it.  The bulldozers should be arriving shortly.

(btw, the West wasn't so untouched: remember the Council of Frankfurt condemning the Seventh Ecumenical Council, and praising the filiqoue IIRC).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Andrea

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2009, 01:20:35 PM »
I'm wondering if it was a NeoCatechuminal Way service. Apparently they do the liturgy a "bit" differently, and they put menorahs on the altar like in the last video link I pasted, and use guitars and bongos and dance around. AFAIK, it's supposed to be more pure and ancient or something. They are also apparently getting more popular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocatechumenal_Way
http://www.neocatechumenalway.us/Main.htm
http://www.youtube.com/user/ernie710
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfoD4WwMQLs

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2009, 05:22:49 PM »
The liturgical differences approved for the Neocatechumeanl Way are few and specified.  Admonitions(homiletic instructions) may precede the readings, echoes (testimonies by laity) may precede the homily,  the Sign of Peace is moved to before the Offertory.  Anything beyond this is liturgical abuse.
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Offline Andrea

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2009, 05:29:28 PM »
The liturgical differences approved for the Neocatechumeanl Way are few and specified.  Admonitions(homiletic instructions) may precede the readings, echoes (testimonies by laity) may precede the homily,  the Sign of Peace is moved to before the Offertory.  Anything beyond this is liturgical abuse.

So they're not allowed to do things like in those videos anymore? The dancing, etc?

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2009, 05:52:43 PM »
The first video only shows them singing a hymn, that is allowed.  The second video showing the  dance around the altar is not allowed.
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Offline stanley123

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2009, 06:09:06 PM »
So they're not allowed to do things like in those videos anymore? The dancing, etc?
It's really absurd to say that things are not allowed or that they are abuses, when they happen all the time in the Catholic Churches.

Offline Andrea

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Re: JEWISH TRADITIONS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2009, 06:56:20 PM »
So they're not allowed to do things like in those videos anymore? The dancing, etc?
It's really absurd to say that things are not allowed or that they are abuses, when they happen all the time in the Catholic Churches.

Well abuse or not, I was just wondering if a Neo Cat way mass is what the op witnessed, as they seem to have some Jewish additions.  Like this Pentecost service on You Tube from this year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF9OWY4_KvY&NR=1  In the video they have a menorah on their altar.