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Ben
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« on: November 08, 2003, 05:45:50 PM »

As most of you know..I am a Roman Catholic on my way to Orthodoxy...and I had a question that maybe a few of you could address with your own opinions.

As a Roman Catholic I have a great to devotion to the Theotokos through the Rossary. I just the love the Rossary, it helps me so much, I just can't explain the benefits of praying the Rossary!

Now if I became Orthodox would I have to stop saying the Rosary?

I doubt any body will say you are forbidden to pray the rossary but I was just looking for people's personal opinions.

Thanks so much!
God bless.
Pray for me a sinner!

In Christ,
       ben
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2003, 06:01:06 PM »

[Now if I became Orthodox would I have to stop saying the Rossary?

I doubt any body will say you are forbidden to pray the rossary but I was just looking for people's personal opinions.]

No Ben, if saying the Rosary brings you closer to God, continue to say the Rosary.  And be very wary of any so called Orthodox priest or bishop who would tell you otherwise.

The Roman Catholic Rosary is patterned after the Orthodox Catholic Chotki.  From what I can tell there is nothing heretical about the prayers that make up the Rosary.

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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2003, 06:02:37 PM »

Thank you very much, and please pray for me, I am in need of many prayers as I journey to the Church of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2003, 06:04:49 PM »

I agree with Orthodoc, Ben.  Keep praying with your rosary!
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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2003, 06:45:50 PM »

Ben

Keep praying the rosary but


Orthodoc

[The Roman Catholic Rosary is patterned after the Orthodox Catholic Chotki.]

Debatable point.  I think you could say that the chotki and rosary both developed from the prayer beads of early Christendom.

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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2003, 08:11:15 PM »

[Debatable point.  I think you could say that the chotki and rosary both developed from the prayer beads of early Christendom.]

What's to debate?  The Chotki developed from early Eastern Christiandom which is, and always has been, Orthodox Christianity.

The use of the Chotki went from East to West.  Not the other way around!

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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2003, 10:21:16 PM »

Orthodoc

I was suggesting that they might have developed simultaneously.  The monastics of the Near East used pebbles to count their prayers.  When Xtianity spread into the Slavic lands the prayer rope developed.  In the West the pebbles where replaced by beads strung together.  The Rosary in the West went through several different forms before the Dominicans formulated the 3 sets of mysteries.  The 150 Ave's mirror the 150 psalms.  The laity not having the Latin (in most cases) to say the Divine Office instead said the rosary.  

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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2003, 10:56:46 PM »

While I agree there is nothing overtly heretical about the rosary in and of itself, I think it is somewhat dangerous to stay overly attached to heterodox devotions.  The world of Orthodox spirituality is so indredibly great...
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2003, 11:02:04 PM »

Then I wonder why do the Western rite Orthodox Christians pray the rossary?

The western rite Antiochian Ortodox church in my area has rossary every week.

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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2003, 11:16:16 PM »

Not all practices done in each parish are always 100% Orthodox.  For example a few loose canon parishes have had involvement in the "charismatic" movement.  I'm not saying that this parish saying the rosary is wrong - only that because this parish says the rosary does not make it automatically correct.  

Like I said before I don't think there is anything overtly heretical in the rosary, but the rest of Roman Catholic Marian devotion is littered with heresy.  All I am saying is use caution and the guidance of a strong spiritual father.
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2003, 11:22:10 PM »

While I agree there is nothing overtly heretical about the rosary in and of itself, I think it is somewhat dangerous to stay overly attached to heterodox devotions.  The world of Orthodox spirituality is so indredibly great...

What is "heterodox" about the Rosary?  I can't think of anything "heterodox" in the actual devotion.  The content is entirely Orthodox, based on Scripture and the undivided Tradition of both East and West.  The world of Orthodox spirituality is indeed great -but not great enough to include a simple, pious, spiritual, faithful act as the Rosary?

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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2003, 11:38:42 PM »

Nektarios

[Like I said before I don't think there is anything overtly heretical in the rosary, but the rest of Roman Catholic Marian devotion is littered with heresy.]

Care to cite some examples of heresy?  You can't just make a blanket statement like this.

[The world of Orthodox spirituality is so indredibly great... ]

Something we agree on at last.

[Not all practices done in each parish are always 100% Orthodox]

Out of curiousity I'd like some examples other than the charismatic one cited.  Again a blanket statement.  Any EO's want to take issue with this?

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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2003, 01:00:02 AM »

Quote
What is "heterodox" about the Rosary?  I can't think of anything "heterodox" in the actual devotion.  The content is entirely Orthodox, based on Scripture and the undivided Tradition of both East and West.  The world of Orthodox spirituality is indeed great - but not great enough to include a simple, pious, spiritual, faithful act as the Rosary?

The rosary is heterodox in that it comes from a soucre outside the Church.  But I have only siad to be cautions because of it's origen, and that it's content is not overtly heretical.  

Quote
Care to cite some examples of heresy?  You can't just make a blanket statement like this.

Lourdes and the "Miraculous Medal" apparitions have thier fair share of heresy since both of so heavy on the Immaculate Conception (the Latin definion thereof opposed to the Orthodox understanding of the Theotokos' purity).  The Brown Scapular especially dabbles in heresy beacuse of the sabbentine privledge (i.e. purgatory and indulgences).  

At the end of the day the only point I'm trying to make here is why go looking outside the Church [i.e the Orthodox Church] for devotions when one is Orthodox?
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2003, 01:05:04 AM »

Quote
Out of curiousity I'd like some examples other than the charismatic one cited.

Priests advocating ABC, confession not being offered etc.
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2003, 01:44:01 AM »

Quote
What is "heterodox" about the Rosary?  I can't think of anything "heterodox" in the actual devotion.  The content is entirely Orthodox, based on Scripture and the undivided Tradition of both East and West.  The world of Orthodox spirituality is indeed great - but not great enough to include a simple, pious, spiritual, faithful act as the Rosary?

The rosary is heterodox in that it comes from a soucre outside the Church.  But I have only siad to be cautions because of it's origen, and that it's content is not overtly heretical.  

Quote
Care to cite some examples of heresy?  You can't just make a blanket statement like this.

Lourdes and the "Miraculous Medal" apparitions have thier fair share of heresy since both of so heavy on the Immaculate Conception (the Latin definion thereof opposed to the Orthodox understanding of the Theotokos' purity).  The Brown Scapular especially dabbles in heresy beacuse of the sabbentine privledge (i.e. purgatory and indulgences).  

At the end of the day the only point I'm trying to make here is why go looking outside the Church [i.e the Orthodox Church] for devotions when one is Orthodox?

I do not think that the Rossary is really out side of Orthodoxy. However the origen of the rossary is Catholic, but when one really looks at the rossary is is just as much Orthodox as it is Catholic.

The Rossary is made up of 3 prayers:

The Hail Mary:
"Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amoung women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

"Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amoung women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus." These words striaght from the bible.

"Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us." This is Biblical. Elizabeth called Mary the Mother of her Lord, and asking the Theotokos's intercession is an ancient Christian practice, long before the Roman Catholic Church broke off from Orthodoxy.

The Our Father:
This prayer came straight from the lips of Jesus Christ, clearly nothing heterodox there!

The Glory Be:
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end."

This prayer is simply praising the all Holy trinity, nothing wrong with that. And plus this prayer is almost identical to the prayer I hear every time I attend Divine Liturgy: "Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, both now and ever and to the ages of ages. Amen."

The prayers of the Rossary are clearly not of Catholic origen, and niether is asking the Theotokos for her intercession,and niether are the 15 mysteries of the Rossary. So I do not see how in any way the Rossary is Heterodox, besides the fact that Catholics came up with the idea of saying these prayers along beads, but prayer ropes and beads aren't of Catholic origen either.

You might enjoy this article:
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/prayerrope.htm

God bless.

Pray for me a sinner!

In Christ,
         Ben

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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2003, 09:28:54 AM »

Nektarios

[At the end of the day the only point I'm trying to make here is why go looking outside the Church [i.e the Orthodox Church] for devotions when one is Orthodox?]

I tend to agree with you here.  When I becam EO my spiritual father looked askance at my use of the rosary and preferred that I use the chotki.

As far as Lourdes, the Miraculous Medal, and the scapular well we could debate them being heretical but as this is the convert section best not to.

Ben
Have you tried the chotki?  The Theotokos wouldn't have a problem with directing prayers toward her Son.  The Jesus Prayer is just as fruitful as the rosary. I've read somewhere that one of the EO saints had come up with something similar to the prayers of the western rosary.  Maybe it was St Seraphim of Sarov.  I remember it being a St. Herman's publication and giving the prayer in the back which looked very western right down to the use of meditating on the mysteries.

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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2003, 09:31:02 AM »

[Debatable point.  I think you could say that the chotki and rosary both developed from the prayer beads of early Christendom.]

What's to debate?  The Chotki developed from early Eastern Christiandom which is, and always has been, Orthodox Christianity.

The use of the Chotki went from East to West.  Not the other way around!

The impression I get is that both developed independently from earlier prayer-counting practices. Either way it strikes me as rather parochial to care all that much.
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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2003, 09:37:13 AM »

Nektarios

[At the end of the day the only point I'm trying to make here is why go looking outside the Church [i.e the Orthodox Church] for devotions when one is Orthodox?]

I tend to agree with you here.  When I becam EO my spiritual father looked askance at my use of the rosary and preferred that I use the chotki.

As far as Lourdes, the Miraculous Medal, and the scapular well we could debate them being heretical but as this is the convert section best not to.

Well, as a D.P. I look with considerable disfavor upon charms.

Quote
Have you tried the chotki?  The Theotokos wouldn't have a problem with directing prayers toward her Son.  The Jesus Prayer is just as fruitful as the rosary. I've read somewhere that one of the EO saints had come up with something similar to the prayers of the western rosary.  Maybe it was St Seraphim of Sarov.  I remember it being a St. Herman's publication and giving the prayer in the back which looked very western right down to the use of meditating on the mysteries.

Somewhere along the line when I was looking this up, I came upon a reference to St. Seraphim. My impression was that his devotion used the Ave Maria but didn't involve the sort of fixed alternation inherent in the usual rosary.
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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2003, 10:29:52 AM »

Keble

[as a D.P.]Huh?

Displaced person?  They're not charms we call them sacramentals in the RCC.  I notice that the National Cathedral is selling Anglican rosaries in their gift shop along with saints medals.  Prior to Hank the 8th in Our Lady's Dowry religious medals were quite popular.  

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« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2003, 03:21:23 PM »

Ben, I'm well aware of prayers of the Rosary as I use to pray it everyday.  And I have said numerous times in this thread that I don't think the rosary is wrong in and of itseld.  It simply COULD be part of a deeper trend of RC like Marian devotion.  If it suits you and you have the blessing of your spiritual father go for it.
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« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2003, 03:36:16 PM »

What on earth is a Rossary?

Bobby
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« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2003, 03:53:26 PM »

Maybe it has something to do with H. Ross Perot?  Wink


What on earth is a Rossary?

Bobby
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« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2003, 04:29:11 PM »

Bobby & Tony

It's the rosary not rossary.  It used to be called the poor man's breviary.  I'd tell you more but I gotta be careful not to convert you.

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« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2003, 05:14:25 PM »

The Rosary is much like a prayer rope except its not used to say one prayer ( The Jesus prayer) but a few prayers. The beads are are either broken up by a space or a larger bead. At these intervals the prayers are changed.

You start off on the Cross making the Sign of the Cross and saying  the "Apostles Creed." On the first bead you say the "Our Father", then there are a few beads (I forget how many) that you say the "Hail Mary" prayer on. When you come to a "break" (for lack of a better word) you say "Glory be to the Father" prayer followed then by the "Our Father" on a larger bead. You then go through this process a few times saying the "Hail Mary's" on the smaller beads, "Glory be to the Father" on the breaks (spaces),  followed  by the "Our Fathers".

Its been a long time since I prayed this so some steps may be missing but that is basically how it goes. The "Nicene Creed" could be substituted for the "Apostles Creed" making the Rosary correct and Orthodox.  I really see no problem with the Rosary with the exception of the Creed that can be easily altered to fit the Orthodox teachings. I always enjoyed the Rosary.

Take Care!
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« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2003, 06:08:43 PM »

Ben,

I agree with Innocent.  I also encourage you to explore the wealth of Orthodox prayers.  There is also a Byzantine version of the Hail Mary that you can use.  I will look for it a post it for you.

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« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2003, 07:02:05 PM »

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of they womb for thou has borne the salvation of our souls"

Is this it Justinianus?

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« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2003, 07:56:48 PM »

For any body who doesnt know what the rosary is here are some links....

http://www.virtualrosary.org/

http://www.marysprayersrosaries.com/pray.asp

http://www.rosary-center.org/howto.htm

God bless!
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« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2003, 08:02:01 PM »

Carpo Rusyn,

Yes I have tried the chotki, but it doesn't give me that same feeling of peace and comfort that the rosary does.

In Christ,
          Ben
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« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2003, 08:04:40 PM »

Rejoice O Virgin Theotokos!

Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.

Blessed are thou among women, and
Blessed is the Friut of your womb.

For you have borne Christ
The Savior and Deliverer of our souls.

Amen.
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« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2003, 08:10:17 PM »

Thanks Justinianus..

In Christ,
      Ben

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« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2003, 09:46:06 PM »

You've told me what the Rosary is, but you have yet to answer what the Rossary is!!

Bobby
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« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2003, 09:48:36 PM »

hmm the rossary..perhaps me trying to spell rosary...lol
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« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2003, 08:30:15 AM »

Keble

[as a D.P.]Huh?

Displaced person?  


D**ned Pr*testant

Quote
They're not charms we call them sacramentals in the RCC.

Well, I think technically that the wearing of them is the actual sacramental. Anyway....

Quote
I notice that the National Cathedral is selling Anglican rosaries in their gift shop along with saints medals.  Prior to Hank the 8th in Our Lady's Dowry religious medals were quite popular.  

Well, the Cathdral Gift Shop tends to try to cover all bases, shall we say...

The anglican rosary is like the catholic sort except that the numbers are all different (weeks instead of decades, etc.) . At this time it doesn't have a fixed set of prayers; that would be un-Anglican Grin Roll Eyes Embarrassed but after all, it is only about 15 years old.

Sample sets of prayers can be found here and here but they hardly exhaust the possibilities.
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« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2003, 08:32:45 AM »

While I was Googling for Anglican rosaries I was presented with this:


Further comment would be superfluous.
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« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2003, 09:28:34 AM »

Bah! Another one of those web sites that thinks its cool to have text following the mouse around the screen Angry

(Bobby, don't even think of it.)

John.
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« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2003, 11:15:03 AM »

The Rosary is wonderful.

Byzantine Christians and other Eastern Christians don't need it - why add a foreign devotion, what with all the Marian canons and akathists one can choose from in the Byzantine Rite, for example? - and it doesn't belong in their churches, but private devotions are an open playing field.

As carpo-rusyn wrote, it was invented to be the psalter (150 liturgical psalms = 150 Hail Marys)/breviary for the illiterate.

The Mass/Liturgy and the divine office/hours/breviary/Morning and Evening Prayer are more important than it or any other nonliturgical practice.

I don't use the Rosary much but like it when I am ill and/or tired and can't pray the usual way out of a book (office, canon, akathist or one of the Orthodox prayer rules for morning or evening) with my mind actively engaged. There is the beautiful Catholic folk saying that if you fall asleep while praying the Rosary the angels/your guardian angel will finish it for you.

To quote an online friend, the new invention called the Anglican Rosary is a way for Broad Churchpeople (in Anglican churchmanship, these are liberal Protestants, including the folks who gave Gene Robinson his promotion) to use prayer beads while remaining needlessly different. IOW, a way to sort of adopt something Catholic while remaining anti-Catholic.

IMO, it's orthodox but hasn't got a living tradition behind it.

Anglo-Catholics don't use it - they use the usual Roman rosary, the Dominican one.

There is no proof AFAIK that this rosary and the other Roman Rite chaplets (there are RC prayer beads, of long standing, other than the Rosary) were copied from the Eastern Orthodox prayer beads but it's entirely possible, as is the possibility that the Crusaders got the idea from the Muslims in the Middle East.

Of note: EOx use prayer beads differently and less/in a more restricted way than RCs and ACs do the Dominican Rosary.

Among Russians the chotki are almost exclusively a monastic practice.

Wearing them on the left wrist is part of the monastic habit.

Layfolk who've been blessed by their father confessor to practise this devotion don't display and carry the beads around in church like traditional RCs do their rosaries.

Plus you're only supposed to do it under spiritual direction so you don't drive yourself mad like in the J.D. Salinger novel Franny and Zooey.
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« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2003, 12:39:24 PM »

Plus you're only supposed to do it under spiritual direction so you don't drive yourself mad like in the J.D. Salinger novel Franny and Zooey.

Anyone know if this concept (of going mad) was probably just invented by Salinger?
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« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2003, 12:45:55 PM »

If we are talking about the Jesus Prayer and Hesychasm then I herd this can be very dangerous. Prayers like this I've been told should be only done under the guidance of a spiritual father. This is not because you can go mad, but because the Devil will attack you with renewed ferocity. Most people that are not Monks/Nuns are not strong enough (spiritually) to handle such attacks.

Maybe it was these demonic attacks that are the madness?

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« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2003, 02:52:01 PM »

To quote an online friend, the new invention called the Anglican Rosary is a way for Broad Churchpeople (in Anglican churchmanship, these are liberal Protestants, including the folks who gave Gene Robinson his promotion) to use prayer beads while remaining needlessly different. IOW, a way to sort of adopt something Catholic while remaining anti-Catholic.

While admitting much of this I would certainly comment that at least one is not tempted to wear an Anglican rosary as a necklace. (It's too small.)

I'm really not that worried that it doesn't have much of a tradition yet-- everything at some point didn't have much of a tradition, after all.
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« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2003, 03:12:49 PM »

LOL, good point, Keble.

'Like a virgin - hey! - touched for the very first... gasp... can't breathe! Cough!' (Circa-1985 Madonna hits the floor with a thump.)

Re: wearing Dominican rosaries as necklaces, I know that's verboten everywhere except, as anastasios will tell you, among some Hispanics, for whom it's a sign of devotion, not disrespect. A lot like men called Jes+¦s.

Tangent: the Y necklace, IMO as a man a sexy women's fashion statement a few years back along with low necklines with business suits (which, gladly, again IMO as a healthy man, continues to be 'in'), could be construed as - ugh - a broken rosary.
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« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2003, 06:22:58 PM »

LOL, good point, Keble.

'Like a virgin - hey! - touched for the very first... gasp... can't breathe! Cough!' (Circa-1985 Madonna hits the floor with a thump.)


I'm sorry  Grin But I can never hear/read of that song but that it immediately changes to "Weird Al" in scrub greens.  Accordians, anyone?

Ebor (We now return you to our previously serious discussion)
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« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2003, 06:45:06 PM »

Keble

{Well, the Cathdral Gift Shop tends to try to cover all bases}

I thought everything in the shop was vetted by the House of Bishops???

{Byzantine Christians and other Eastern Christians don't need it - why add a foreign devotion, what with all the Marian canons and akathists one can choose from in the Byzantine Rite, for example?}

I tend to agree with Serge though I have used the Akathist to the Thetokos in private devotion as an RC.  Is there a copyright? Smiley

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St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2003, 06:55:01 PM »

Here is a nice devotion to the Theotokos by St. Nilus of Sora Skete.



Sunday

All-merciful Virgin Theotokos, Mother of compassions and love for mankind, my most beloved hope and aspiration! 0 Mother of the most sweet and most desired Savior, Who exceedeth every love, Jesus Christ, the Lover of mankind and my God, the Light of my darkened soul! I, the exceeding sinful and hopeless one, fall down before thee, to thee I make my prayer, 0 well-spring of compassion, Virgin Mary, who didst bear the Abyss of compassion and Depth of mercies and love for mankind: Have mercy on me, have mercy on me, I painfully cry to thee; have mercy on me who am all in wounds, who have fallen among brutish thieves and who am, alas!, stripped naked of the garment in which the Father clothed me. Wherefore I lie stripped of every good deed, my wounds stinking and festering before my madness. My Mistress, Theotokos, look down on me, I humbly pray thee, with thy merciful eye and despise me not, who am all in darkness, all in filth, all immersed in the mire of passions, terribly fallen and unable to stand. Do thou take pity on me and grant me a helping hand, lift me up out of sinful depths, 0 my Joy! Deliver me from them that surround me; make thy face to shine upon thy servant; save the perishing, cleanse the filthy, raise up the terrible fallen: for thou canst do all things, as thou art the Mother of God Almighty. Pour forth on me the oil of thy compassion and grant me to overflow the wine of compunction, for I have acquired thee as truly the only hope in my life; turn thou not away from me who flee to thee, but behold my grief, 0 Virgin, and the longing of my soul and accept this prayer and save me, 0 thou the Mediatress of my salvation. Amen.


Monday

From polluted lips accept thou a prayer, 0 unblemished, pure and most- pure Virgin Theotokos, and despise not my words, 0 my Joy, but look down on me and have pity, 0 Mother of my Maker. During my lifetime do thou not abandon me, for thou knowest, 0 Mistress, that I place all my hope on thee and all mine aspiring is alter thee. Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand thou before me, 0 my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, 0 Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But thou, my Joy, reveal unto me then thy presence, work thy mercy marvelously upon me, 0 Mediatress of my salvation. Rescue me, 0 Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by thine enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who sitteth there with His Beginningless Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen.


Tuesday

0 My most holy Mistress, the Theotokos, who art far more honorable than the angels and archangels, cherubim and seraphim, and far more holy than all the saints, 0 Virgin Mother of God! Save me, thy humble and sinful servant, for thou knowest, all-merciful Lady, that, alter God, I place all my hope in thee, and that I have no other refuge of salvation but thee, 0 all-good one. Thou art my strength, 0 Mistress, thou art my power, thou my rejoicing in sorrows, thou my haven in temptations, thou my correction in falls, thou also mine all-hoped for salvation, 0 Mother of my Lord and Maker! Help me, who sail upon the depths of this life, terribly beset and endangered by drowning in sin. Grant me a helping hand, my helper, and deliver me from the mire of the deep, that I not sink down into the abyss of despair: for the storm of sins and passions hath risen against me and the waves of transgressions overwhelm me. But do thou, 0 compassionate Mother, thou haven of passionlessness, direct and save me, 0 hope of the hopeless and mediatress of my salvation. Amen.


Wednesday

0 Theotokos, thou art my hope, thou art a wall and haven of good hope and a refuge of salvation for me who am exhausted by the presence of passions! Save me from all mine enemies that persecute my soul and hunt for it with various temptations; for on the way wherein I walk they have hidden many snares for me, many scandals, many hardships, many deceptions, and many afflictions of soul and body snare me into sinful falls and I, the wretched one, have already fallen into the traps of the enemy and am bound and held by them; and what shall I do, I the despairing one? I know not! For if I seek to repeat, I am held by lack of feelings and hardness of heart and a single tear! Alas for my cursed state! Alas for my deprivation! Alas for my poverty! To whom then, can I turn, I the guilty one? Only to thee, the compassionate Mother of our Lord and Savior, the hope of the hopeless, the wall and protection of them that flee unto thee! Turn not away from me who am filthy: I have thee as the only consolation in my life, 0 Virgin Mary Theotokos, and to thee alone in every need do I flee with boldness; do not abandon me, then, in this life and at the hour of my death come thou to mine aid, 0 my helper, that all mine enemies may behold thee and be put to shame, being conquered by thee, 0 Mistress, Mediatress of my salvation. Amen.


Thursday

Who can worthily bless thee, All-holy Virgin; what lips are capable of hymning thy majesty which surpasseth all conceiving? Most glorious are all the mysteries fulfilled in thee, 0 Theotokos, loftier than thought and word. At the beauty of thy virginity and thy most radiant purity the cherubim did marvel and the seraphim were struck with awe; for the miracle of the Childbirth without corruption neither human nor angelic tongue can tell. For from thee the Ageless and Only-begotten Son of God, God the Word, ineffiably took flesh, was born and lived among men; and thee, as His Mother, hath He greatly magnified, revealing thee as the Queen of all creation and for us the signal refuge of salvation. Wherefore, all that flee under thy protection, being assailed by various sorrows and afflictions, receive from thee consolation and healing in abundance and by thee are saved from dangers. For thou art truly the Mother of all that sorrow and are heavy laden, the joy of the grieving, the healer of the sick, the preserver of youths, the staff of old age, the glory of the righteous, the sinners' hope of salvation and guide to repentance; for thou dost ever help all with thy protection and dost intercede for all that flee to thee with faith and love, 0 thou all-good one. Do thou also help me who am in despair over my deeds, 0 fervent Mediatress for the Christian race: Intercede thou for me, that I not perish until the end in sins; for I have no other refuge and protection, but thee, the Mistress of my life: Abandon me not, despise me not, but by thy judgments that thou thyself dost know, do thou save me, for blessed art thou unto ages of ages. Amen.


Friday

To thee do I entrust my life for protection and, on thee, alter God, do I place all hope of my salvation, 0 Mistress and Virgin Theotokos. I, thy servant, pray thee, despise not me who have many sins, but behold my sorrow and my perplexity over them and grant me relief and consolation, that I not perish to the end. Stretch forth thy right hand, 0 pure one, lift me from the mire of my deeds and place me in the pure pasture of the commandments of Christ, my King and God, that I may ever act strengthened by Thee. Deliver me, 0 Lady, from my terrible sins and by thy motherly intercession before thy Son and God send me repentance unto salvation. Thou who didst show forth the ineffable Light, enlighten my spiritual darkness and the sinfullness which lieth there. 0 my Joy, deliver me from the invisible enemies that surround me; for my sins are many and they are heavy, my enemies are very fierce, death is near, my conscience doth accuse me, the fiery Gehenna doth Terrify me, the unsleeping worm, the gnashing of teeth, the outer darkness of Tartarus do bring me to trembling, for they seek to take me in because of my evil deeds. Woe is me! What shall I do then, and to whom shall I flee, that my soul be saved? To thee alone, 0 sweet Theotokos Mary, who cloth sweeten the bitterness of death for them that hope in thee and who doth deliver them that cry unto thee from terrible Gehenna. Do thou also help me, 0 all-good one, for then I shall have no other help but thee, all hymned one. Save me then from the terrors of the hour of death and the ferocity of the demons; save me from the power of the malicious spirits at the trials of the air after death: Reveal, I pray thee, reveal to me then thy most radiant presence, O Mistress, and do thou not abandon me the helpless one. 0 compassionate Mother! Stoop down to mercy towards me who am deprived of mercy by my deeds and do thou beseech Him Whom thou didst bear in the flesh, even Christ our God and Savior, Who did pour forth His most pure blood on the cross, that I also may receive forgiveness of sins and eternal salvation and glorify thine unspeakable compassion, 0 Theotokos, and thy merciful intercession, through out endless ages. Amen.

 

 

Saturday

Rejoice, 0 Virgin Theotokos, thou haven and protection of mine impoverished soul, my sweet hope of salvation! Rejoice, thou who from the angel didst receive the joy of the good tidings that God the Word was to take flesh of thee! Rejoice, thou who didst bear the Creator of all within thy womb! Rejoice, thou who didst give birth to God in the flesh, the Savior of the world! Rejoice, thou who didst preserve virginity uncorrupted in childbirth! Rejoice, thou who didst receive gifts from the magi and didst behold their worship of Him Who wast born of thee and didst hear the shepherds' most glorious words concerning Him and didst lay all these things up in thy heart! Rejoice, thou who didst joyfully find the child Jesus, thy Son and God, in the temple among the teachers of the Law! Rejoice, thou who didst bear the terrible pain of anguish at the cross, crucifixion and death of thy Son and God! Rejoice, thou who after such trials was radiantly gladdened by the resurrection of sweetest Jesus on the third day! Rejoice, thou who didst behold the ascension of thy Son and God in heavenly glory! Rejoice, thou who together with the disciples of the Lord didst receive from Him the Holy Spirit, Which was sent down on the upper room in the form of fiery tongues! Rejoice, thou that didst live like an angel on earth! Rejoice, thou that didst surpass in purity and holiness all the angelic orders and all the choirs of saints! Rejoice, thou that art magnified with glory by the coming to thee of thy Son and God! Rejoice, thou that didst entrust thy soul into His holy hands! Rejoice, thou that gloriously wast taken up bodily into heaven! Rejoice, thou that didst appear to the God-beholding apostles on the third day after thy repose! Rejoice, thou that art crowned in the heavens by the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit with the diadem of the eternal kingdom! Rejoice, thou that hast been enthroned in glory near the throne of the All-holy Trinity! Rejoice, thou through whom God is reconciled with man! Rejoice, Queen ruling over things heavenly and earthly! Rejoice, for nothing is impossible for thine intercession! Rejoice, for all that flee to thee with fi~th are saved! Rejoice, for by thee the grieving find consolation, the ailing healing, the afflicted timely help! I then pray thee, 0 Mistress full of grace, extinguish in me sinful sorrow and grant me the joy of salvation, consoling tears, constant compunction, true repentance and perfect correction. Despise me not, O Mistress, but mercifully receive these joyful cries offered to thee by me the poor one, and come thou to mine aid at the time of my helplessness, in that terrible hour when my soul will be parted from my cursed body; come, then, I pray, to mine aid and deliver me, who am guilty in sin, from the eternal punishment, that I appear not a joy to demons and food for the fiery Gehenna. Yea, my Mistress, permit not my soul to see the terrible and fearsome threat and torment of the demons prepared for sinners, but do thou go before me and save me thy servant in that terrible hour, that I may glorify thee unto the ages, mine only hope and the Mediatress of my salvation. Amen.


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« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2003, 07:59:15 PM »

Its been a long time since I prayed this so some steps may be missing but that is basically how it goes. The "Nicene Creed" could be substituted for the "Apostles Creed" making the Rosary correct and Orthodox.  I really see no problem with the Rosary with the exception of the Creed that can be easily altered to fit the Orthodox teachings. I always enjoyed the Rosary.

Um, did you know that the Apostles' Creed is an ancient Orthodox baptismal creed from Rome, being substantially what is known to scholars as the "Old Roman Creed" quoted by Tertullian as early as 200 (hence it predates the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed by almost two centuries)?

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae. Et in Iesum Christum, Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum, Qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, Natus ex Maria Virgine, Passus sub Pontio Pilato, Crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus, Descendit ad infernos, Tertia die resurrexit a mortuis, Ascendit ad caelos, Sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis, Inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos.  Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, Sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, Sanctorum communionem, Remissionem peccatorum, Carnis resurrectionem et vitam aeternam. Amen.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary: Suffered under Pontius Pilate, Was crucified, dead, and buried: He descended into hell; The third day he rose again from the dead: He ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty: From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.  I believe in the Holy Ghost: The holy Catholick Church; The Communion of Saints: The Forgiveness of sins: The Resurrection of the body, And the Life everlasting. Amen.


What exactly is incorrect and un-Orthodox about this?

BJA
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« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2003, 08:05:52 PM »

Its been a long time since I prayed this so some steps may be missing but that is basically how it goes. The "Nicene Creed" could be substituted for the "Apostles Creed" making the Rosary correct and Orthodox.  I really see no problem with the Rosary with the exception of the Creed that can be easily altered to fit the Orthodox teachings. I always enjoyed the Rosary.

Um, did you know that the Apostles' Creed is an ancient Orthodox baptismal creed from Rome, being substantially what is known to scholars as the "Old Roman Creed" quoted by Tertullian as early as 200 (hence it predates the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed by almost two centuries)?

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae. Et in Iesum Christum, Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum, Qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, Natus ex Maria Virgine, Passus sub Pontio Pilato, Crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus, Descendit ad infernos, Tertia die resurrexit a mortuis, Ascendit ad caelos, Sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis, Inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos.  Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, Sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, Sanctorum communionem, Remissionem peccatorum, Carnis resurrectionem et vitam aeternam. Amen.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary: Suffered under Pontius Pilate, Was crucified, dead, and buried: He descended into hell; The third day he rose again from the dead: He ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty: From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.  I believe in the Holy Ghost: The holy Catholick Church; The Communion of Saints: The Forgiveness of sins: The Resurrection of the body, And the Life everlasting. Amen.


What exactly is incorrect and un-Orthodox about this?

BJA


Its not used in the Orthodox Church!
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