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Author Topic: The Rosary  (Read 11028 times) Average Rating: 0
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venite
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« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2003, 08:15:30 PM »

Its not used in the Orthodox Church!

Hmm, that's a fascinating concept: something which was formed within the bosom of the Orthodox Catholic Church, which is entirely derived from Holy Scripture and the Tradition of the Church, which was prayed and professed by centuries of Orthodox Christians in the West, is not Orthodox because it's no longer in use in (most of) the Orthodox Church.  Things that make you go hmm...

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« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2003, 08:20:58 PM »

Its not used in the Orthodox Church!

Hmm, that's a fascinating concept: something which was formed within the bosom of the Orthodox Catholic Church, which is entirely derived from Holy Scripture and the Tradition of the Church, which was prayed and professed by centuries of Orthodox Christians in the West, is not Orthodox because it's no longer in use in (most of) the Orthodox Church.  Things that make you go hmm...

BJA

I do not know why the Orthodox do not use it. All I know is I've never seen it used in an Orthodox Church.  Is it Canonical? I do not know. This is a question for a Priest or someone with a good grasp on the early church Fathers. I do know that we (Orthodox) use the Nicene Creed, so why use a creed not in use by the Orthodox Church?
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venite
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« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2003, 08:27:57 PM »

Innocent,

I'm not suggesting that Eastern Orthodox start using the Apostles' Creed.  In fact the AC was never a part of the Eastern tradition.  No problem.  Same with the Rosary.  I am reacting to your statement that it isn't Orthodox.  In fact it is because it reflects the Orthodox Catholic Faith faithfully, regardless of its current use.  If current use is a criterion for Orthodoxy, then there are lots of ancient Orthodox liturgical texts which became somehow un-Orthodox the moment they fell out of use (I have in mind the ancient rites of Antioch, Alexandria, Rome, Milan, etc.).

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« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2003, 08:31:47 PM »

My local Western rite Antiochian Orthodox parish says the AC, not during the course of Mass, but I have heard it at prayer services before and after Mass, and I have heard it recited while the entire congregation prayed the rossary after confessions on saturday afternoon...

Just thought I'd throw in my personal expirence...

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« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2003, 09:57:08 PM »

Venite

[the moment they fell out of use (I have in mind the ancient rites of Antioch, Alexandria, Rome, Milan, etc.).]

Ahh. Actually the Roman rite is not out of use nor is Milan (though it's only done in Milan).

 The AC grew out of the 4th century creeds authored by Ambrose and Rufinus.  It looks like it was used in the vernacular in 9th century Gaul and is recorded in Roman liturgical books of the 10th century. The AC doesn't seem to have moved east.
My source for this info:  "The Christian Faith" edited by Jacques Dupuis 6th revision 1996.  It's good to keep old textbooks around.

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« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2003, 10:04:33 PM »

If your spiritual father says you can use the AC then use it.

The Milan Rite is the Sarum Rite maybe? If so it is in use by a group that I forget their name.

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Tony
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« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2003, 10:17:17 PM »

Do you mean the Milan Synod?

In Christ,
Tony

If your spiritual father says you can use the AC then use it.

The Milan Rite is the Sarum Rite maybe? If so it is in use by a group that I forget their name.

Take Care!
Innocent
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« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2003, 11:51:31 PM »

Yes thats the one.
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« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2003, 12:25:21 AM »

Quote
I tend to agree with Serge though I have used the Akathist to the Thetokos in private devotion as an RC.  Is there a copyright?

Like I said re: the Rosary, private devotions are an open playing field.

Bishop Kallistos (Ware) wrote in The Orthodox Church that the Orthodox accept the Apostles' Creed as a local (Western) baptismal creed while noting that the Byzantine Rite never uses it.

I think what is meant by the Milanese Rite is the Ambrosian Rite, similar to the Roman, still the rite of the RC archdiocese of Milan.

There is a vagante group, AFAIK currently belonging to a pseudo-Orthodox synod based in Milan, that claims to do the Sarum-use Roman Mass. More of that ye-olde-English-Orthodox nonsense.
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« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2003, 10:01:36 AM »

The Milan Synod that I herd of is vagante right not. From what I herd this will not be much longer. They are supposed to be going under the JP.

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« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2003, 03:49:22 PM »

The Milan Synod that I herd of is vagante right not. From what I herd this will not be much longer. They are supposed to be going under the JP.


When did this happen?  Last time I heard, they were looking into coming under the (Syrian) Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, but I assumed this never went through.  How did you hear about the JP thing?
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« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2003, 04:00:56 PM »

Just a quick note.  The author of the source I cited Fr Jacques Dupuis SJ. is not the same Dupuis mentioned in the Fatima thread on the News section.

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« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2003, 04:01:09 PM »

I read something about it on the Orthodox-Forum. Tons of stuff go through there that is far from truth so you may be right. I'll try and find it and post it.

The Milan Synod that I herd of is vagante right not. From what I herd this will not be much longer. They are supposed to be going under the JP.


When did this happen?  Last time I heard, they were looking into coming under the (Syrian) Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, but I assumed this never went through.  How did you hear about the JP thing?  
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venite
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« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2003, 07:57:38 PM »

Ahh. Actually the Roman rite is not out of use nor is Milan (though it's only done in Milan).

The AC grew out of the 4th century creeds authored by Ambrose and Rufinus.  It looks like it was used in the vernacular in 9th century Gaul and is recorded in Roman liturgical books of the 10th century. The AC doesn't seem to have moved east.
My source for this info:  "The Christian Faith" edited by Jacques Dupuis 6th revision 1996.  It's good to keep old textbooks around.

Certainly the old Rites of Rome and Milan continued within the Western Church.  My point was that the rites of Rome and Milan fell out of use in the Orthodox Church as the West became separated from the East.  Although now that I think about it, a Slavonic version of the Roman Canon of S. Peter survived directly from the time of Ss. Cyril and Methodius in Dalmatia and Croatia, until the 1970's.  The Rite of Milan, however, did fall out of use in the Orthodox Church because of the tragedy of the schism.

On the AC, the sources I read maintain that the substance of the text grows out of the so-called "Old Roman Creed" as quoted by Tertullian, c. 200.  Of course, an early date tends to be maintained by Roman and Anglican scholars, while Protestant scholars such as Harnack tend to want to counter this with a much later date (V c.), for obvious reasons.  Either way, the origin of the AC is well within the pre-schismatic period in the Western Churches.

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« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2003, 08:06:49 PM »

Venite

[Either way, the origin of the AC is well within the pre-schismatic period in the Western Churches.]

I quite agree.


CR
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