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stashko
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« on: June 05, 2009, 04:08:46 PM »

I just got back from Justina's Funeral and burial ,She as a Roman Catholic Croatian was Buried at Gracanica Monastery
[The Most Holy Mother Of God] next to her Serbian Husband Zivko,the monestary told them they can't have a roman catholic priest at burial sight so the catholic funeral was held at the funeral home ....after the burial they left the cemetary Part,and
some of Family went into the church to light candles..
Then they Started the sightseeng tour trampling inside the Altar Area,Thats when i lost it ,
and kicked them out of the Altar area ,told them it was forbidden to enter inside Even i as a orthodox just can't walk in ,
plus woman are forbibben....
Was i wrong to snap at them about this in there time of loss....
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 04:27:41 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2009, 04:20:39 PM »


Time of loss or not, rules need to be followed.
However, as Catholics, they may not have known the rules.  If I went into a church I was unfamiliar with, I would not walk around, at will.
Often times, even in Orthodox churches, I first ask permission to take photos, or to walk inside, when everyone has left.
It's simple courtesy.

I am sure you did it in a polite and non-threatening manner.  They simply didn't know.
It was a great opportunity to educate them.  Were they just curious, or were they being nosey or offensive?

Either way, seeing them entering the Altar would made me go ballistic!

Stashko, I would have done the same thing!
Lord have mercy on us both!  I am very defensive of Orthodoxy!
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2009, 04:37:33 PM »

I just got back from Justina's Funeral and burial ,She as a Roman Catholic Croatian was Buried at Gracanica Monastery
[The Most Holy Mother Of God] next to her Serbian Husband Zivko,the monestary told them they can't have a roman catholic priest at burial sight so the catholic funeral was held at the funeral home ....after the burial they left the cemetary Part,and
some of Family went into the church to light candles..
Then they Started the sightseeng tour trampling inside the Altar Area,Thats when i lost it ,
and kicked them out of the Altar area ,told them it was forbidden to enter inside Even i as a orthodox just can't walk in ,
plus woman are forbibben....
Was i wrong to snap at them about this in there time of loss....

I would have said even the priests, except for a reason shouldn't be there.  Otherwise, well, natural reaction.
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2009, 04:59:05 PM »

I just got back from Justina's Funeral and burial ,She as a Roman Catholic Croatian was Buried at Gracanica Monastery
[The Most Holy Mother Of God] next to her Serbian Husband Zivko,the monestary told them they can't have a roman catholic priest at burial sight so the catholic funeral was held at the funeral home ....after the burial they left the cemetary Part,and
some of Family went into the church to light candles..
Then they Started the sightseeng tour trampling inside the Altar Area,Thats when i lost it ,
and kicked them out of the Altar area ,told them it was forbidden to enter inside Even i as a orthodox just can't walk in ,
plus woman are forbibben....
Was i wrong to snap at them about this in there time of loss....

You were not wrong for telling them to leave.

Just a side note: women are not forbidden from being in the sanctuary. No one (male or female) can enter the sanctuary without the blessing of the priest, and without a reason for being there. Even a priest cannot just "hang out" in the sanctuary without good reason.

At the parish I grew up in, it was the Ladies Auxilary Society that would change the altar linens for the appropriate seasons. Again, they had the blessing of the priest, and a reason to be back there.
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2009, 05:14:08 PM »

I would say that telling them to leave was most definitely appropriate.  However, HOW you told them to leave may be what is giving you a feeling that you over-reacted.  This is definitely a situation where one's own conscience is a most apt arbiter of right/wrong.
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2009, 05:31:16 PM »

I just got back from Justina's Funeral and burial ,She as a Roman Catholic Croatian was Buried at Gracanica Monastery
[The Most Holy Mother Of God] next to her Serbian Husband Zivko,the monestary told them they can't have a roman catholic priest at burial sight so the catholic funeral was held at the funeral home ....after the burial they left the cemetary Part,and
some of Family went into the church to light candles..
Then they Started the sightseeng tour trampling inside the Altar Area,Thats when i lost it ,
and kicked them out of the Altar area ,told them it was forbidden to enter inside Even i as a orthodox just can't walk in ,
plus woman are forbibben....
Was i wrong to snap at them about this in there time of loss....

You were not wrong for telling them to leave.

Just a side note: women are not forbidden from being in the sanctuary. No one (male or female) can enter the sanctuary without the blessing of the priest, and without a reason for being there. Even a priest cannot just "hang out" in the sanctuary without good reason.

At the parish I grew up in, it was the Ladies Auxilary Society that would change the altar linens for the appropriate seasons. Again, they had the blessing of the priest, and a reason to be back there.

Theres a few nuns there ,i have nothing against them entering to clean or dust or change what needs to be done ,,but lay women iv allways heard it was forbidden for them to enter that sacred space only the Holy Virgin is allowed,thats how i was taught ....Things are slowly changing i guess...
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2009, 05:45:39 PM »


Time of loss or not, rules need to be followed.
However, as Catholics, they may not have known the rules.  If I went into a church I was unfamiliar with, I would not walk around, at will.
Often times, even in Orthodox churches, I first ask permission to take photos, or to walk inside, when everyone has left.
It's simple courtesy.

I am sure you did it in a polite and non-threatening manner.  They simply didn't know.
It was a great opportunity to educate them.  Were they just curious, or were they being nosey or offensive?

Either way, seeing them entering the Altar would made me go ballistic!

Stashko, I would have done the same thing!
Lord have mercy on us both!  I am very defensive of Orthodoxy!
 Wink


Thank you! for your great reply,,I told them if i went to a catholic church i would never go to their sacred place there altar area and walk around there,,just plain common sense will dictate not to do that....I really was angry at what they did....
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2009, 05:51:37 PM »

Theres a few nuns there ,i have nothing against them entering to clean or dust or change what needs to be done ,,but lay women iv allways heard it was forbidden for them to enter that sacred space only the Holy Virgin is allowed,thats how i was taught ....Things are slowly changing i guess...

Not quite, stashko. If a woman has a blessing from her bishop to enter, then it's OK, be she a nun or a laywoman. Sometimes women are given such a blessing for a specific purpose, like the female iconographer who painted the icons in the altar of the church I attend. She was given a blessing to enter for the purpose of painting the icons, and nothing more. Once the icons were painted, she stayed right out.

Having said that, you were right to tell these people to leave. I hope you did it politely and not aggressively.
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2009, 05:53:41 PM »

Theres a few nuns there ,i have nothing against them entering to clean or dust or change what needs to be done ,,but lay women iv allways heard it was forbidden for them to enter that sacred space only the Holy Virgin is allowed,thats how i was taught ....Things are slowly changing i guess...

Not quite, stashko. If a woman has a blessing from her bishop to enter, then it's OK, be she a nun or a laywoman. Sometimes women are given such a blessing for a specific purpose, like the female iconographer who painted the icons in the altar of the church I attend. She was given a blessing to enter for the purpose of painting the icons, and nothing more. Once the icons were painted, she stayed right out.

Having said that, you were right to tell these people to leave. I hope you did it politely and not aggressively.


The serbian in me got a little agressive sorry about that...
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2009, 05:53:59 PM »

I can't understand why the RC priest wasn't allowed at the burial site. Maybe I'm missing something. I think, in their grief, they may not have realized what they were doing. I think if you gently and kindly explained to them, that would have been good. Getting angry couldn't be best christian testimony, I think-this might leave them with a bad impression of Orthodoxy.

 I remember reading about a man who was a protestant missionary in Romania and it was because the priest allowed him in the altar and explained everything to him that he began his journey into Orthodoxy (of course he didn't go into the altar without the priest suggesting it, I am sure).

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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2009, 06:07:42 PM »

I can't understand why the RC priest wasn't allowed at the burial site. Maybe I'm missing something. I think, in their grief, they may not have realized what they were doing. I think if you gently and kindly explained to them, that would have been good. Getting angry couldn't be best christian testimony, I think-this might leave them with a bad impression of Orthodoxy.

 I remember reading about a man who was a protestant missionary in Romania and it was because the priest allowed him in the altar and explained everything to him that he began his journey into Orthodoxy (of course he didn't go into the altar without the priest suggesting it, I am sure).



Actually the Monastery didn't want her buried there ,,only orthodox need apply,,,they purchased the two plots when the husband was still alive a Serb...So they had no choice after that, but allow the burial ,,But no catholic ceremony on orthodox holy ground..They respected the churches wishes in this...they attend the orthodox services many times even the mother when she was alive,including the picnics  ,plus the mother when alive and her daughters know the Serbian and Croation language..........
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2009, 06:14:10 PM »

But what would be wrong with the mere presence of an RC priest at the burial site? I still don't understand. Before I became Orthodox, our pastors would attend Orthodox funerals of friends we knew...out of respect they would attend both the Orthodox funeral at the church or on the street and then follow to the internment ceremony at the gravesite. It just seemed to be good manners and common courtesy. They never said anything, just stood there respectfully as a guest. I can't see why the RC priest couldn't have done likewise.

I think it's very nice and proper that she was allowed to be laid to rest beside her husband, regardless of confession. But I don't understand how the fact that she spoke croatian or serbian would make any difference in God's eyes as to her standing in His sight...
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2009, 06:19:47 PM »

But what would be wrong with the mere presence of an RC priest at the burial site? I still don't understand. Before I became Orthodox, our pastors would attend Orthodox funerals of friends we knew...out of respect they would attend both the Orthodox funeral at the church or on the street and then follow to the internment ceremony at the gravesite. It just seemed to be good manners and common courtesy. They never said anything, just stood there respectfully as a guest. I can't see why the RC priest couldn't have done likewise.


Monasteries maybe are more strick in there rules i guess,,the Daughter told me the church said no catholic clergy allowed at the burial sight.... plus theres a seminary there as well...
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2009, 06:23:32 PM »

Sigh. Okay. I still don't get it. Oh well.
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2009, 06:41:44 PM »

Sigh. Okay. I still don't get it. Oh well.
Me neither Huh, sounds like a very strange scenario. Maybe those are the customs in Stashko's part of the world? It still sounds strange to a person livinig his whole life in America.
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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2009, 07:06:03 PM »

Quote
I remember reading about a man who was a protestant missionary in Romania and it was because the priest allowed him in the altar and explained everything to him that he began his journey into Orthodoxy (of course he didn't go into the altar without the priest suggesting it, I am sure).

Wait, the priest let him in the sanctuary even though the guy wasn't Orthodox? I know women can go into the sanctuary for special reasons with a blessing, but I thought one had to be Orthodox no matter what in order to enter the sanctuary.
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2009, 07:52:54 PM »

Quote
I remember reading about a man who was a protestant missionary in Romania and it was because the priest allowed him in the altar and explained everything to him that he began his journey into Orthodoxy (of course he didn't go into the altar without the priest suggesting it, I am sure).

Wait, the priest let him in the sanctuary even though the guy wasn't Orthodox? I know women can go into the sanctuary for special reasons with a blessing, but I thought one had to be Orthodox no matter what in order to enter the sanctuary.

I thought so too, but I distinctly remember reading this a few years ago. I wish I could find the link, but I'm sure it would be hard to retrieve. I came upon it by accident, and thought how beautiful this former protestant missionary to Romania's story was and how good that the priest helped to lead him to Orthodoxy by his kindness.

P.S. Amazing, but I just found his story after all these years. Read about it in his own words here:
http://www.antiochian-orthodox.co.uk/Journeys/journey22.htm
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2009, 08:01:48 PM »

I really have trouble with altar girls and women going behind the altar for host distribution. Makes me want to run to the SSPX! When it comes time for Holy Communion, some Catholics will duck the women distributing the host and go directly to the priest.
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2009, 09:51:40 PM »

I really have trouble with altar girls and women going behind the altar for host distribution. Makes me want to run to the SSPX! When it comes time for Holy Communion, some Catholics will duck the women distributing the host and go directly to the priest.

While the Orthodox Church does not customarily have altar girls, there is no canon forbidding it. Unfortunately over the years a lot of yia-yia-ology has crept in and taught people that women are completely forbidden from the sanctuary area.

This is simply not true.

We have evidence of this with the ancient office of female deacons, and the fact that in convents, nun's act as altar servers with the priest.

The fact is that no one can enter the sanctuary unless they have a reason to be there. If they don't have a reason to be there, they should not be in the sanctuary.
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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2009, 10:03:49 PM »

I might want to point out that nuns serving in the altar is not some new practice influenced by modern ideas but is a very old custom, although it is not that common.
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2009, 11:25:37 PM »

But what would be wrong with the mere presence of an RC priest at the burial site? I still don't understand. Before I became Orthodox, our pastors would attend Orthodox funerals of friends we knew...out of respect they would attend both the Orthodox funeral at the church or on the street and then follow to the internment ceremony at the gravesite. It just seemed to be good manners and common courtesy. They never said anything, just stood there respectfully as a guest. I can't see why the RC priest couldn't have done likewise.


Monasteries maybe are more strick in there rules i guess,,the Daughter told me the church said no catholic clergy allowed at the burial sight.... plus theres a seminary there as well...

It's not just monasteries that have these rules.  It has nothing to do with the seminary and monastery being there to have that rule.  Our cemetary has a very strict rule that non-Orthodox can not officiate burial services graveside if a non-Orthodox is permitted to be buried there.  I imagine that is why the monastery said no-no, as in they wouldn't have had a problem if the funeral was for an Orthodox person and a Catholic minister attended the burial as a laymen (not having any part in the service in other words).  But they did make an exception for the person to be buried there but I fully understand their rule about not allowing a non-Orthodox minister to officiate there, cemetaries are sacred and blessed ground and allowing a non-Orthodox minister to perform a religious ceremony on them would be no different than if he performed it in the church.  I'm sure people will argue with me, however, I didn't write or create the rules I am just passing them along.
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2009, 11:39:36 PM »


While the Orthodox Church does not customarily have altar girls, there is no canon forbidding it. Unfortunately over the years a lot of yia-yia-ology has crept in and taught people that women are completely forbidden from the sanctuary area.

This is simply not true.

We have evidence of this with the ancient office of female deacons, and the fact that in convents, nun's act as altar servers with the priest.

The fact is that no one can enter the sanctuary unless they have a reason to be there. If they don't have a reason to be there, they should not be in the sanctuary.
What is yia-yia-ology? Undecided
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2009, 11:43:53 PM »


While the Orthodox Church does not customarily have altar girls, there is no canon forbidding it. Unfortunately over the years a lot of yia-yia-ology has crept in and taught people that women are completely forbidden from the sanctuary area.

This is simply not true.

We have evidence of this with the ancient office of female deacons, and the fact that in convents, nun's act as altar servers with the priest.

The fact is that no one can enter the sanctuary unless they have a reason to be there. If they don't have a reason to be there, they should not be in the sanctuary.
What is yia-yia-ology? Undecided

Yia-yia is the Greek word for Grandma.

Yia-yia-ology is bad theology that is passed down from one generation to another. It exists in one form or another in all churches, not just Orthodoxy. It's based in superstition/false belief rather than truth.
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2009, 12:37:22 AM »

But what would be wrong with the mere presence of an RC priest at the burial site? I still don't understand. Before I became Orthodox, our pastors would attend Orthodox funerals of friends we knew...out of respect they would attend both the Orthodox funeral at the church or on the street and then follow to the internment ceremony at the gravesite. It just seemed to be good manners and common courtesy. They never said anything, just stood there respectfully as a guest. I can't see why the RC priest couldn't have done likewise.


Monasteries maybe are more strick in there rules i guess,,the Daughter told me the church said no catholic clergy allowed at the burial sight.... plus theres a seminary there as well...

It's not just monasteries that have these rules.  It has nothing to do with the seminary and monastery being there to have that rule.  Our cemetary has a very strict rule that non-Orthodox can not officiate burial services graveside if a non-Orthodox is permitted to be buried there.  I imagine that is why the monastery said no-no, as in they wouldn't have had a problem if the funeral was for an Orthodox person and a Catholic minister attended the burial as a laymen (not having any part in the service in other words).  But they did make an exception for the person to be buried there but I fully understand their rule about not allowing a non-Orthodox minister to officiate there, cemetaries are sacred and blessed ground and allowing a non-Orthodox minister to perform a religious ceremony on them would be no different than if he performed it in the church.  I'm sure people will argue with me, however, I didn't write or create the rules I am just passing them along.

I totally agree about not allowing RC priests to officiate in any ecclesiastical capacity. Our pastors never did so at an Orthodox funeral or in the graveyard-they had more sense than that. They just quietly, reverently looked on and were there to show their respect and support for the grieving family-it seems a humane thing to do. Surely the RC priest would also understand that he was not to officiate, but to stand there as a layman?  Smiley It seems a no-brainer to me. Of course, I can see how it would seem difficult for him to refrain altogether, since this woman was RC herself and was likely under his spiritual care. But he could have still stood there quietly and said his prayers internally?
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+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2009, 12:49:48 AM »

I totally agree about not allowing RC priests to officiate in any ecclesiastical capacity.

I'm pretty sure that's all stashko was saying.  I doubt there would have been any issue with the Catholic priest attending without officiating.  But no heterodox services on Orthodox soil.  Standard protocol and common sense.
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ChristusDominus
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2009, 01:13:38 AM »

Yia-yia is the Greek word for Grandma.

Yia-yia-ology is bad theology that is passed down from one generation to another. It exists in one form or another in all churches, not just Orthodoxy. It's based in superstition/false belief rather than truth.
Oh, I get it now..kinda like the tooth fairy?   Roll Eyes
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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2009, 01:29:23 AM »

Yia-yia is the Greek word for Grandma.

Yia-yia-ology is bad theology that is passed down from one generation to another. It exists in one form or another in all churches, not just Orthodoxy. It's based in superstition/false belief rather than truth.
Oh, I get it now..kinda like the tooth fairy?   Roll Eyes

Sort of but not quite. Something like the tooth fairy is blatantly obvious to be fake. I'm thinking more along the lines where culture and religion mix, and make bad theology. Here's an example of what I mean:

If you spit on someone, it will scare the devil away. There is no basis for that, but yet it sounds like a good idea, so people do it. (Think of My Big Fat Greek Wedding.) In fact, the only person we should spit on is the devil himself, not each other!

Another would be that "women should not approach the chalice when they are mentruating because they are unworthy to receive." This is mixing Jewish kosher law with Christian theology. If anything, a woman who is menstruating and in pain is in greater need of that which is healing.

It is superstition, chauvenism, ignorance, and cultural tradition (not Holy Tradition) that drives these beliefs that have no basis in reality.
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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2009, 04:43:08 AM »

But what would be wrong with the mere presence of an RC priest at the burial site? I still don't understand. Before I became Orthodox, our pastors would attend Orthodox funerals of friends we knew...out of respect they would attend both the Orthodox funeral at the church or on the street and then follow to the internment ceremony at the gravesite. It just seemed to be good manners and common courtesy. They never said anything, just stood there respectfully as a guest. I can't see why the RC priest couldn't have done likewise.


Monasteries maybe are more strick in there rules i guess,,the Daughter told me the church said no catholic clergy allowed at the burial sight.... plus theres a seminary there as well...

It's not just monasteries that have these rules.  It has nothing to do with the seminary and monastery being there to have that rule.  Our cemetary has a very strict rule that non-Orthodox can not officiate burial services graveside if a non-Orthodox is permitted to be buried there.  I imagine that is why the monastery said no-no, as in they wouldn't have had a problem if the funeral was for an Orthodox person and a Catholic minister attended the burial as a laymen (not having any part in the service in other words).  But they did make an exception for the person to be buried there but I fully understand their rule about not allowing a non-Orthodox minister to officiate there, cemetaries are sacred and blessed ground and allowing a non-Orthodox minister to perform a religious ceremony on them would be no different than if he performed it in the church.  I'm sure people will argue with me, however, I didn't write or create the rules I am just passing them along.

Excellent explanation Thats what i really meant to say....Good job ......well done...What you said...
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2009, 04:45:24 AM »

I totally agree about not allowing RC priests to officiate in any ecclesiastical capacity.

I'm pretty sure that's all stashko was saying.  I doubt there would have been any issue with the Catholic priest attending without officiating.  But no heterodox services on Orthodox soil.  Standard protocol and common sense.


What you said ,thats what i meant ...another good job in explaining ....
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