Author Topic: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July  (Read 2169 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« on: June 03, 2009, 09:55:19 AM »
Quote
Moscow, June 3, Interfax - Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia will start visiting other local Orthodox churches in early July, a spokesman for the Secretariat for Inter-Orthodox Relations of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, said.

"These visits will be performed in line with the authorized list, the diptych," he told Interfax-Religion on Wednesday.

By tradition, the head of one Orthodox Church visits the territories of others as they are listed in the diptych. The diptych currently has 15 Church jurisdictions: the Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, Georgian, Serb, Romanian, Bulgarian, Cypriot, Greek, Albanian and Polish Orthodox churches, the Orthodox Church in the Czech Lands and Slovakia, and the Orthodox Church in America.

The Russian Patriarch will first travel to Turkey.


Interfax
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline scamandrius

  • Musicians don't dance
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,959
  • Why do I waste my time here?
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2009, 06:16:20 PM »
I wonder if some would see this as a move for the MP trying to assert some sort of primacy or universal jurisdiction over all the autocephalous churches. 

I personally think that this would be a great move to get things going for a future ecumenical council (which, in my opinion, we really need), but I have a feeling that some jurisdictions may react less than favourably.  I hope that each church would at least receive His Holiness with fraternal love.
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline witega

  • Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2009, 11:26:44 PM »
I wonder if some would see this as a move for the MP trying to assert some sort of primacy or universal jurisdiction over all the autocephalous churches. 

 ???
As noted in the news story, its fairly normal (in this century) for a new presiding hierarch to go 'on tour' to meet the other presiding hierarch. I have no idea why the MP doing something the head of any other autocephalous church might do would be considered an attempt to 'assert primacy'.

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great

Offline scamandrius

  • Musicians don't dance
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,959
  • Why do I waste my time here?
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2009, 12:01:24 AM »
^I have no idea why either. I'm just saying that there are some hierarchs in various jurisdictions who are very guarded and view the most innocuous of things as encroachments on their canonical territory. Unfortunate, but true.
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline filipinopilgrim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2009, 10:49:59 AM »
"By tradition, the head of one Orthodox Church visits the territories of others as they are listed in the diptych. The diptych currently has 15 Church jurisdictions: the Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, Georgian, Serb, Romanian, Bulgarian, Cypriot, Greek, Albanian and Polish Orthodox churches, the Orthodox Church in the Czech Lands and Slovakia, and the Orthodox Church in America."

If this is true, then why did Metropolitan Jonah of OCA visit Moscow first? Was that merely caused by conflicting schedules, or was it a statement about Moscow's place in the diptychs?

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,527
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2009, 10:57:32 AM »
"By tradition, the head of one Orthodox Church visits the territories of others as they are listed in the diptych. The diptych currently has 15 Church jurisdictions: the Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, Georgian, Serb, Romanian, Bulgarian, Cypriot, Greek, Albanian and Polish Orthodox churches, the Orthodox Church in the Czech Lands and Slovakia, and the Orthodox Church in America."

If this is true, then why did Metropolitan Jonah of OCA visit Moscow first? Was that merely caused by conflicting schedules, or was it a statement about Moscow's place in the diptychs?


There may have been two reasons. First, OCA started as a mission of the Moscow Patriarchate and it would have been proper to visit the mother church first. Second, the Metropolitan may not have been successful in arranging a visit to Constantinople (You may wish to check the rather vigorous "discussions" earlier this year regarding Constantinople's role in the so-called diaspora or the barbarian lands). 

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2009, 11:01:03 AM »
If this is true, then why did Metropolitan Jonah of OCA visit Moscow first? Was that merely caused by conflicting schedules, or was it a statement about Moscow's place in the diptychs?
It is because Moscow is the mother church of the OCA just as Constantinople is the mother church to Moscow. You will notice that Met. Jonah's next schedule visit is to Constantinople. This whole visiting the churches in a specific order is a very modern practice because before air travel it would mean that the new Patriarch/Metropolitan would have never been home because of the length required to travel to some of these places.  
Joseph

Offline filipinopilgrim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2009, 11:03:18 AM »
"By tradition, the head of one Orthodox Church visits the territories of others as they are listed in the diptych. The diptych currently has 15 Church jurisdictions: the Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, Georgian, Serb, Romanian, Bulgarian, Cypriot, Greek, Albanian and Polish Orthodox churches, the Orthodox Church in the Czech Lands and Slovakia, and the Orthodox Church in America."

If this is true, then why did Metropolitan Jonah of OCA visit Moscow first? Was that merely caused by conflicting schedules, or was it a statement about Moscow's place in the diptychs?


There may have been two reasons. First, OCA started as a mission of the Moscow Patriarchate and it would have been proper to visit the mother church first. Second, the Metropolitan may not have been successful in arranging a visit to Constantinople (You may wish to check the rather vigorous "discussions" earlier this year regarding Constantinople's role in the so-called diaspora or the barbarian lands). 

Well, he could have gone to Antioch. I guess you're right about the Mother Church thing, though.

Offline filipinopilgrim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2009, 12:26:12 PM »
Speaking of Mother Churches: aside from OCA, the Polish Orthodox Church would be considered as a daughter Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, right? It got its first Tomos of Autocephaly from Constantinople in 1924 but I understand that Moscow denounced this Tomos and issued its own in the 1950's.

The Orthodox Church of Czech and Slovak Lands would be a daughter Church of Serbia, although it got its first Tomos of Autocephaly from Moscow and only later from Constantinople. Is this correct?

And what is Georgia's Mother Church?

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2009, 03:32:40 PM »
"By tradition, the head of one Orthodox Church visits the territories of others as they are listed in the diptych. The diptych currently has 15 Church jurisdictions: the Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Russian, Georgian, Serb, Romanian, Bulgarian, Cypriot, Greek, Albanian and Polish Orthodox churches, the Orthodox Church in the Czech Lands and Slovakia, and the Orthodox Church in America."

If this is true, then why did Metropolitan Jonah of OCA visit Moscow first? Was that merely caused by conflicting schedules, or was it a statement about Moscow's place in the diptychs?


It is an agency news article, not ecclesiological essay. It can be wrong or it's only MP tradition. My Church's Primate visits the others but not right after enthronement and not in the order in dyptychs.


Speaking of Mother Churches: aside from OCA, the Polish Orthodox Church would be considered as a daughter Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, right? It got its first thomos of autocephaly from Constantinople in 1924 but I understand that Moscow denounced this thomos and issued its own in the 1950's.

Actually in 1948.


The Orthodox in Poland prior to XVIIth (1685 or something like that) century were under the jurisdiction under the Metropolitanate of Kiev - an autonomous Church under the EP. Then it was annexed by MP due to political reasons. In 1924 it was granted an autocephaly by EP. During the WWII it was under ROCOR Bishop Seraphim of Berlin. In 1948 CoP due to political reasons it abandoned the EP's thomos and was greeted the MP's thomos.

Quote
And what is Georgia's Mother Church?

It depends on what you call a Mother Church;
- the Church which first preached Christian faith on the area
- the Church which first had the jurisdiction over the area
- the Church which had the jurisdiction over the area right after the Church became autocephalous
- the Church which first granted the autocephaly

Between 320 to 466 Georgians were under AP. In 466 CoG became autocephalous. In 1811 it was annexed by the MP. In 1917 it declared itself an autocephalous again what was confirmed by the MP in 1943.

Quote
The Orthodox Church of Czech and Slovak Lands would be a daughter Church of Serbia, although it got its first thomos of autocephaly from Moscow and only later from Constantinople. Is this correct?

Prior to 20th century the Orthodox in area of Czech Republic and Slovakia were under the Churches of Serbia or Romania but almost all of them became U-banned-word. In 1921 the Catholic Priest was ordained to the Bishop by CoS. A few years after there was a schism and some of the Orthodox went to the EP. During the WWII they went to Russians which eventually gave them autocephaly which was given also by the EP almost 50 years later.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 03:33:35 PM by mike »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline frost

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2009, 07:37:19 PM »
The canonical order listed needs correction. The Georgian Patriachate is the 5th see in historical order, after the Patriarchate of Jerusalem. The Russian synodal church usurped the postion of the Patriarchate of Georgia during the 18th century when the Russian Tsarist government banned the Georgian Patriachate and annexed the Georgian church. The Georgian church was founded an AD 326, a full 662 years before Volodymir's Baptism of the Kyivans.

Offline mike

  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 22,589
Re: 2nd Rome and 3rd Rome Primates meeting in July
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2009, 10:53:10 AM »
Each autocephalous Church has different order in their dyptychs.
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject