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Author Topic: Is It Sinful to Wear a Knot Under the Chin?  (Read 14485 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 30, 2009, 05:27:56 PM »

The following discussion split off from this thread:  Headcoverings Revisited  -PtA


May God bless all of us!

Proper head coverings on women have been abandoned due to betraying the Faith and Practice of Christ and His Church. Not only ought women to keep every bit of the hair on their head covered, they ought not to make a knot under their chin with a covering. Judas is the one who was known for making a knot under his chin. The Holy Spirit, through the Ecumenical Councils, teaches us that the ancient customs should prevail. All of the true old icons give us the proper instruction in this regard. No partial or knotted head covering will do. Proper head coverings on women are a required mark of humility on women. Head coverings should not be too fanciful or flamboyant either, as with totally busy multiplied colored designs. It is true of Chrysostom that the laity has the same demands on them as monastics. The Saint goes on to say that the reason this world is upside down is precisely because non-monastics believe they are allowed to live a life of indolence. Asceticism is not an option for those of us who would follow Christ. Most people today are happy to love this world, their flesh and the devil. The days are evil. Like harlots are those women who expose their hair to men (bad company corrupts good morals, says the Apostle). A couple other comments along these lines are that women are not to practice cutting their hair, and due to the fiascos with things such as Delilah women are not to even witness the hair of men and boys being cut. In this way we can give added protection from these temptations. There are not really many, if any, faithful teachers these days.

Forgive, brother John
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 01:39:41 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2009, 05:43:32 PM »

May God bless all of us!

Proper head coverings on women have been abandoned due to betraying the Faith and Practice of Christ and His Church. Not only ought women to keep every bit of the hair on their head covered, they ought not to make a knot under their chin with a covering. Judas is the one who was known for making a knot under his chin. The Holy Spirit, through the Ecumenical Councils, teaches us that the ancient customs should prevail. All of the true old icons give us the proper instruction in this regard. No partial or knotted head covering will do. Proper head coverings on women are a required mark of humility on women. Head coverings should not be too fanciful or flamboyant either, as with totally busy multiplied colored designs. It is true of Chrysostom that the laity has the same demands on them as monastics. The Saint goes on to say that the reason this world is upside down is precisely because non-monastics believe they are allowed to live a life of indolence. Asceticism is not an option for those of us who would follow Christ. Most people today are happy to love this world, their flesh and the devil. The days are evil. Like harlots are those women who expose their hair to men (bad company corrupts good morals, says the Apostle). A couple other comments along these lines are that women are not to practice cutting their hair, and due to the fiascos with things such as Delilah women are not to even witness the hair of men and boys being cut. In this way we can give added protection from these temptations. There are not really many, if any, faithful teachers these days.

Forgive, brother John


Now on top of everything else, people, we have some more rules to follow...just in case anyone was starting to slack off...
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2009, 05:45:16 PM »

Pay no mind to him, Rosehip.  angel
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2009, 05:59:30 PM »

I'm wondering where the assertion that Judas knotted a scarf under his chin comes from.  Unless it's because of hanging himself which would need a knotted rope, but then would that mean that knots are evil?  Or that there were no knots before Judas?  or why would the noose's knot be under his chin anyway?

And just where does the idea that a woman should not witness male hair being cut come from, besides that poster's own imagination?   So a mother taking her little boy to the barber shop is a sin?!?!  Funny that God didn't mention that one in with the commandments...

<It is to pinch the bridge of the nose and shake the head.>

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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2009, 06:19:36 PM »

I'm wondering where the assertion that Judas knotted a scarf under his chin comes from.  Unless it's because of hanging himself which would need a knotted rope, but then would that mean that knots are evil?  Or that there were no knots before Judas?  or why would the noose's knot be under his chin anyway?

And just where does the idea that a woman should not witness male hair being cut come from, besides that poster's own imagination?   So a mother taking her little boy to the barber shop is a sin?!?!  Funny that God didn't mention that one in with the commandments...

<It is to pinch the bridge of the nose and shake the head.>



Hello Ebor,

It is a heretical influence to tie knots under the chin, whether a sharf or necktie.

The teaching of the Holy Gospel is that we all are expected to judge righteous judgment.

One person's superstition is another person's truth.

Nobody can prove that faithful Christians tied knots under their chins.

Where is the presidence for such practices as knots under the chin, or having women witness the cutting of hair?

Devilish things are devilish, that is that.

Forgive, brother John
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 06:22:31 PM by Hopeful Faithful » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2009, 07:07:08 PM »

We all make our choices as to what examples we follow, this world or Christ. Betrayers of Christ have a history of keeping knots under their chin. Freemasons started using the necktie. The world’s largest necktie company is owned by a Freemason. It is a requirement that members of the Freemasons wear a suit and tie to their meetings. As for me, I do not want to wear a Freemason suit. Both men and women should be a good example and avoid any hint of Satanism, as with knots under the chin. One of the definitions for the word “tie” is “noose”. This is all to better explain the good practice of women not having a knotted kerchief. It is so very sorrowful that people ignore what it truly means to be Christian.

Forgive, brother John
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 07:17:33 PM by Hopeful Faithful » Logged

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2009, 07:16:35 PM »

A "heretical influence" from where or whom?  You have once again made an assertion without any background information or possible source. You are acting as an authority, yet give no support for why you should be accepted as one.  What passage of the Scriptures or council or patriarch declared a knot to be a heresy?  

You invoke the Gospels in the next sentence.  Please give us the passage that you have in mind in making your claim.  

How can you personally "prove" that faithful Christians did not tie knots under their chins? Merely repeating yourself is not proof.

"Presidence"?  Perhaps you are thinking of another word.  I will ask you where is it written or ordered or declared that such practices as knots under the chin or women witnessing a hair cut are not allowed?  Where besides in your writing?  

I have a number of times here on the forum asked you to give documentation for some of your more unusual claims of what is or is not Christian. I have shown where you have made errors of fact in your claims. I have shown in the past, with examples and documenting links, where you have misused other's words to try and support your particular and peculiar ideas.   Though I do not claim to be particularly "righteous" since I am yet alive and as a human being a sinner (and following the words of Our Lord such as in Mark 10:18 that there is no one that is good besides God) I do judge such acts to be lying about other people's ideas and words and that such deeds are not righteous nor True.  

Why would Truth need to be backed up with falsehoods?

The burden of proof of your claims is on you, yet you have so far been unwilling or unable to give any real, verifiable, unaltered material. Mere repetition is not "proof".  

But we have been here before...

Ebor

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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2009, 07:28:03 PM »

A "heretical influence" from where or whom?  You have once again made an assertion without any background information or possible source. You are acting as an authority, yet give no support for why you should be accepted as one.  What passage of the Scriptures or council or patriarch declared a knot to be a heresy?  

You invoke the Gospels in the next sentence.  Please give us the passage that you have in mind in making your claim.  

How can you personally "prove" that faithful Christians did not tie knots under their chins? Merely repeating yourself is not proof.

"Presidence"?  Perhaps you are thinking of another word.  I will ask you where is it written or ordered or declared that such practices as knots under the chin or women witnessing a hair cut are not allowed?  Where besides in your writing?  

I have a number of times here on the forum asked you to give documentation for some of your more unusual claims of what is or is not Christian. I have shown where you have made errors of fact in your claims. I have shown in the past, with examples and documenting links, where you have misused other's words to try and support your particular and peculiar ideas.   Though I do not claim to be particularly "righteous" since I am yet alive and as a human being a sinner (and following the words of Our Lord such as in Mark 10:18 that there is no one that is good besides God) I do judge such acts to be lying about other people's ideas and words and that such deeds are not righteous nor True.  

Why would Truth need to be backed up with falsehoods?

The burden of proof of your claims is on you, yet you have so far been unwilling or unable to give any real, verifiable, unaltered material. Mere repetition is not "proof".  

But we have been here before...

Ebor



Hello Ebor,

Yes, I meant "precedence", not "presidence". I am the worlds worst speller, forgive.

Thank you for catching that.

If others want to think that dressing like Judas or Freemasons, with a knot under the chin, is the thing to do it is their choice.

I do not think there is any evidence or proof that Christians should wear such a thing.

I believe there is more than enough proof for my position and anyone who searches these things out for themselves will learn it.

I do not see any good proof for the examples of what we see in the modern churches.

Modern innovations are the falsehoods, not the old practices established centuries ago.

Each person must judge for themselves which way to stand on such matters, I acknowledge that.

Ultimately none of us will have any excuses, as Christ will judge us all, for what we do.

Forgive, brother John
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 07:32:59 PM by Hopeful Faithful » Logged

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If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2009, 07:31:15 PM »

How can you personally "prove" that faithful Christians did not tie knots under their chins? Merely repeating yourself is not proof.


It may be a belief particular to the Old Believers and perhaps some other communities in the former Soviet Union.  We have some people at my parish, who come from a remote village in the old country.  They view tying knots anywhere on the body as extremely bad luck.  They even wear shoes without shoelaces.  I don't know the origin of this belief.

John,

Is it only under the chin that a knot is considered bad, or is there a problem with tying knots generally? 
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2009, 07:35:48 PM »

We all make our choices as to what examples we follow, this world or Christ.

Indeed, and I will try to follow my Master, Jesus Christ.

Quote
Betrayers of Christ have a history of keeping knots under their chin.

Documentation?

Quote
Freemasons started using the necktie.

The cravat or necktie originated in Western fashion when a group of Croatian soldiers and their leaders came to Paris, France in the mid 1630s. This was picked up as an  alternative to the lace collar and spread to other countries.
http://www.ties-neckties.com/history.htm

The Terra Cotta warriors found in Xian, China which are over 2,000 years old are depicted as wearing neck-cloths which are clearly shown to be in a simple knot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Terracotta_army_5256.jpg

The real history of clothing can be quite interesting.

Quote
The world’s largest necktie company is owned by a Freemason.

Could you give the name of the company you mean please?  A cursory search reports that the "Modern Tie and Accessory" company in Shengzhou, Zhejiang. China is the largest and that it is a "joint Sino-Japanese" enterprise

http://www.tradeboss.com/default.cgi/action/viewcompanies/companyid/377722/

Ebor
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2009, 07:39:38 PM »

How can you personally "prove" that faithful Christians did not tie knots under their chins? Merely repeating yourself is not proof.


It may be a belief particular to the Old Believers and perhaps some other communities in the former Soviet Union.  We have some people at my parish, who come from a remote village in the old country.  They view tying knots anywhere on the body as extremely bad luck.  They even wear shoes without shoelaces.  I don't know the origin of this belief.

Thank you, Salpy.  You have provided other information that may apply in some particular culture. One cannot extrapolate from that to a universal "Law", I don't think.  But at least there is some example and not mere repetition.
 Smiley

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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2009, 07:42:37 PM »

How can you personally "prove" that faithful Christians did not tie knots under their chins? Merely repeating yourself is not proof.


It may be a belief particular to the Old Believers and perhaps some other communities in the former Soviet Union.  We have some people at my parish, who come from a remote village in the old country.  They view tying knots anywhere on the body as extremely bad luck.  They even wear shoes without shoelaces.  I don't know the origin of this belief.

John,

Is it only under the chin that a knot is considered bad, or is there a problem with tying knots generally? 

Greetings Salpy,

I believe that all authentic Orthodox through all time avoided wearing knots under the chin.

Maybe it is the Psalter which proclaims for us to keep the old ways, and not depart from them.

We all can study the history of knots ourselves to learn if such a practice is godly or not.

Thank you for mentioning your experiance with the people in your parish, it should make us reconsider what we all do.

Forgive, brother John
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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2009, 07:44:34 PM »

I believe there is more than enough proof for my position and anyone who searches these things out for themselves will learn it.

As has happened in the past, you refuse to give any sources or links and claim that others can find what you say is "proof".  

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.  Why won't you do so?

Ebor

 

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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2009, 07:51:41 PM »


We all can study the history of knots ourselves to learn if such a practice is godly or not.

http://www.theropepeople.com/Indexi.html

http://www.theropepeople.com/Knotsi.html

no knots, no nets for fishing, no workable sailing boats, no solid weaving of cloth as when one reel of thread/yarn comes to an end it is joined to the next with a "weaver's knot"
http://www.theropepeople.com/WeaversKnoti.html



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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2009, 07:58:22 PM »

As has happened in the past, you refuse to give any sources or links and claim that others can find what you say is "proof".  

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.  Why won't you do so?

Ebor

It is very clear to all of us what is departure from god-given practice.

We are to test and prove for ourselves what is right, we all will face the ultimate judge.

Time will tell who has been honest or false.

I am not here to debate for debates sake, I rest.

Everyone is allowed to make their own choices.

Forgive, brother John
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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2009, 09:23:54 PM »

It is very clear to all of us what is departure from god-given practice.

If it was so clear to us, then why is Ebor asking for you to cite a source? You have not cited scripture nor writings of the Church Father's or ANYONE for that matter, to back up your fanatical claims.

Where does it state ANYWHERE that tying knots under the neck is evil? Please cite a source.
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« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2009, 10:29:23 PM »

A slight correction, Handmaiden. The Greeks wore the chiton, the Romans the toga.  Wink Grin

But I fear that our friend HopefulFaithful might reject even these garments as suitable, given their pagan origins ...  Tongue Roll Eyes

As for knots under the chin being heretical, what of the many, many hermit-saints and ascetics (male and female) who are depicted in icons with their simple cloaks knotted under their chins? Or of St Xenia of Petersburg, who is frequently shown wearing a white or pale-colored headscarf knotted under her chin, and (gasp!) visible hair? Or of St Mary of Egypt, who is shown barely clothed in Father Zosimas' cloak, and with her head completely uncovered? Or, HopefulFaithful, in your superior wisdom, do you not regard these people as genuine saints? I eagerly await your reply.
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« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2009, 10:36:34 PM »

As for me, I do not want to wear a Freemason suit.
Yeah, we can't do anything that Freemasons might coincidentally also do. We might get cooties. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2009, 11:48:05 PM »

May God bless all of us!

Proper head coverings on women have been abandoned due to betraying the Faith and Practice of Christ and His Church. Not only ought women to keep every bit of the hair on their head covered, they ought not to make a knot under their chin with a covering. Judas is the one who was known for making a knot under his chin. The Holy Spirit, through the Ecumenical Councils, teaches us that the ancient customs should prevail. All of the true old icons give us the proper instruction in this regard. No partial or knotted head covering will do. Proper head coverings on women are a required mark of humility on women. Head coverings should not be too fanciful or flamboyant either, as with totally busy multiplied colored designs. It is true of Chrysostom that the laity has the same demands on them as monastics. The Saint goes on to say that the reason this world is upside down is precisely because non-monastics believe they are allowed to live a life of indolence. Asceticism is not an option for those of us who would follow Christ. Most people today are happy to love this world, their flesh and the devil. The days are evil. Like harlots are those women who expose their hair to men (bad company corrupts good morals, says the Apostle). A couple other comments along these lines are that women are not to practice cutting their hair, and due to the fiascos with things such as Delilah women are not to even witness the hair of men and boys being cut. In this way we can give added protection from these temptations. There are not really many, if any, faithful teachers these days.

Forgive, brother John


Now on top of everything else, people, we have some more rules to follow...just in case anyone was starting to slack off...

It's absolute nonsense, Rosehip.
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« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2009, 11:51:56 PM »


Hello Ebor,

It is a heretical influence to tie knots under the chin, whether a sharf or necktie.

The teaching of the Holy Gospel is that we all are expected to judge righteous judgment.

One person's superstition is another person's truth.

Nobody can prove that faithful Christians tied knots under their chins.

Where is the presidence for such practices as knots under the chin, or having women witness the cutting of hair?

Devilish things are devilish, that is that.

Forgive, brother John

"Curiouser and curiouser," said the Cheshire cat. ROFL
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« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2009, 11:54:17 PM »

We all make our choices as to what examples we follow, this world or Christ. Betrayers of Christ have a history of keeping knots under their chin. Freemasons started using the necktie. The world’s largest necktie company is owned by a Freemason. It is a requirement that members of the Freemasons wear a suit and tie to their meetings. As for me, I do not want to wear a Freemason suit. Both men and women should be a good example and avoid any hint of Satanism, as with knots under the chin. One of the definitions for the word “tie” is “noose”. This is all to better explain the good practice of women not having a knotted kerchief. It is so very sorrowful that people ignore what it truly means to be Christian.

Forgive, brother John

How does one identify the lunatic fringe? Hmmm... let me see? Hmmm... I wonder how? Hmmm....
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« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2009, 01:49:40 AM »

It is so very sorrowful that people ignore what it truly means to be Christian.
Well, with this much I certainly agree.
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« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2009, 08:44:48 AM »

We all can study the history of knots ourselves to learn if such a practice is godly or not.

Apostles Peter and Andrew were fishermen. They used knotted nets. Were they freemasons?

If others want to think that dressing like Judas or Freemasons, with a knot under the chin, is the thing to do it is their choice.

Judas and freemasons also do have ears, arms and legs. Should we cut ours off in order not to look similar to them?
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« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2009, 11:27:29 AM »

The following discussion split off from this thread:  Headcoverings Revisited  -PtA


May God bless all of us!

Proper head coverings on women have been abandoned due to betraying the Faith and Practice of Christ and His Church. Not only ought women to keep every bit of the hair on their head covered, they ought not to make a knot under their chin with a covering. Judas is the one who was known for making a knot under his chin. The Holy Spirit, through the Ecumenical Councils, teaches us that the ancient customs should prevail. All of the true old icons give us the proper instruction in this regard. No partial or knotted head covering will do. Proper head coverings on women are a required mark of humility on women. Head coverings should not be too fanciful or flamboyant either, as with totally busy multiplied colored designs. It is true of Chrysostom that the laity has the same demands on them as monastics. The Saint goes on to say that the reason this world is upside down is precisely because non-monastics believe they are allowed to live a life of indolence. Asceticism is not an option for those of us who would follow Christ. Most people today are happy to love this world, their flesh and the devil. The days are evil. Like harlots are those women who expose their hair to men (bad company corrupts good morals, says the Apostle). A couple other comments along these lines are that women are not to practice cutting their hair, and due to the fiascos with things such as Delilah women are not to even witness the hair of men and boys being cut. In this way we can give added protection from these temptations. There are not really many, if any, faithful teachers these days.

Forgive, brother John


Finally, someone who has thier priorities straight... Wink
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« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2009, 11:33:52 AM »

How does one identify the lunatic fringe? 

But how can there be an fringe of there aren't any knots to keep it from unraveling? 

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.   Wink Grin  )
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« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2009, 01:17:30 PM »

How does one identify the lunatic fringe? 

But how can there be an fringe of there aren't any knots to keep it from unraveling? 

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.   Wink Grin  )

Fifty lashes. Cheesy And by the way... I sense this thread is unraveling very quickly. After all... it was a knotty issue (not naughty *gulp) to begin with.  Wink
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« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2009, 01:56:15 PM »

A "heretical influence" from where or whom?  You have once again made an assertion without any background information or possible source. You are acting as an authority, yet give no support for why you should be accepted as one.  What passage of the Scriptures or council or patriarch declared a knot to be a heresy?  

You invoke the Gospels in the next sentence.  Please give us the passage that you have in mind in making your claim.  

How can you personally "prove" that faithful Christians did not tie knots under their chins? Merely repeating yourself is not proof.

"Presidence"?  Perhaps you are thinking of another word.  I will ask you where is it written or ordered or declared that such practices as knots under the chin or women witnessing a hair cut are not allowed?  Where besides in your writing?  

I have a number of times here on the forum asked you to give documentation for some of your more unusual claims of what is or is not Christian. I have shown where you have made errors of fact in your claims. I have shown in the past, with examples and documenting links, where you have misused other's words to try and support your particular and peculiar ideas.   Though I do not claim to be particularly "righteous" since I am yet alive and as a human being a sinner (and following the words of Our Lord such as in Mark 10:18 that there is no one that is good besides God) I do judge such acts to be lying about other people's ideas and words and that such deeds are not righteous nor True.  

Why would Truth need to be backed up with falsehoods?

The burden of proof of your claims is on you, yet you have so far been unwilling or unable to give any real, verifiable, unaltered material. Mere repetition is not "proof".  

But we have been here before...

Ebor



Hello Ebor,

Yes, I meant "precedence", not "presidence". I am the worlds worst speller, forgive.

Thank you for catching that.

If others want to think that dressing like Judas or Freemasons, with a knot under the chin, is the thing to do it is their choice.

I do not think there is any evidence or proof that Christians should wear such a thing.

I believe there is more than enough proof for my position and anyone who searches these things out for themselves will learn it.

I do not see any good proof for the examples of what we see in the modern churches.

Modern innovations are the falsehoods, not the old practices established centuries ago.

Each person must judge for themselves which way to stand on such matters, I acknowledge that.

Ultimately none of us will have any excuses, as Christ will judge us all, for what we do.

Forgive, brother John

"Modern innovations..like the computer?
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« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2009, 03:02:57 PM »

As for knots under the chin being heretical, what of the many, many hermit-saints and ascetics (male and female) who are depicted in icons with their simple cloaks knotted under their chins? Or of St Xenia of Petersburg, who is frequently shown wearing a white or pale-colored headscarf knotted under her chin, and (gasp!) visible hair? Or of St Mary of Egypt, who is shown barely clothed in Father Zosimas' cloak, and with her head completely uncovered? Or, HopefulFaithful, in your superior wisdom, do you not regard these people as genuine saints? I eagerly await your reply.

As an Old Believer, John would not recognize St. Xenia as a Saint but they would recognize St. Mary; at least they should. They only recognize Saints who lived before the schism of the Old Believers in 1666.
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2009, 03:38:40 PM »

The more time goes on, the more I think Hopeful Faithful is an act.  Regardless, I think you guys give him too much credit Wink
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« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2009, 04:32:08 PM »

As much as I think Hopeful Faithful is off base, apparently St. John Maximovitch forbade altar servers from wearing neckties while serving.

"Vladika did not allow acolytes to wear ties under their sticharions. He explained that if a priest can, in case of emergency, use even a thread instead of an epitrachelion, an acolyte shouldn't wear a tie around his neck during a service."

http://www.roca.org/OA/108/108e.htm
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« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2009, 04:36:36 PM »

As much as I think Hopeful Faithful is off base, apparently St. John Maximovitch forbade altar servers from wearing neckties while serving.

"Vladika did not allow acolytes to wear ties under their sticharions. He explained that if a priest can, in case of emergency, use even a thread instead of an epitrachelion, an acolyte shouldn't wear a tie around his neck during a service."

http://www.roca.org/OA/108/108e.htm

As much as I love St John, and regard him as one of the great saints, his aversion to ties is simply a cultural opinion, and should not be construed as Orthodox doctrine or dogma.
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« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2009, 04:52:38 PM »

As much as I think Hopeful Faithful is off base, apparently St. John Maximovitch forbade altar servers from wearing neckties while serving.

"Vladika did not allow acolytes to wear ties under their sticharions. He explained that if a priest can, in case of emergency, use even a thread instead of an epitrachelion, an acolyte shouldn't wear a tie around his neck during a service."

http://www.roca.org/OA/108/108e.htm

As much as I love St John, and regard him as one of the great saints, his aversion to ties is simply a cultural opinion, and should not be construed as Orthodox doctrine or dogma.

Certainly not dogma. But not all pastoral advice is dogma...
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« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2009, 05:01:38 PM »

The more time goes on, the more I think Hopeful Faithful is an act.  Regardless, I think you guys give him too much credit Wink
I am beginning to think you are right. It is best to just ignore him.
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« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2009, 05:07:30 PM »

As much as I think Hopeful Faithful is off base, apparently St. John Maximovitch forbade altar servers from wearing neckties while serving.

"Vladika did not allow acolytes to wear ties under their sticharions. He explained that if a priest can, in case of emergency, use even a thread instead of an epitrachelion, an acolyte shouldn't wear a tie around his neck during a service."

http://www.roca.org/OA/108/108e.htm

The key was during service; Hopeful Faithful seems to believe neck ties shouldn't be worn at all. Also, I hardly think Vladyka would go out and tell the Baba's to undo the knots in their Babushka's.

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« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2009, 05:12:59 PM »

Quote
And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

Mk. 1, 7

Jesus also was using knots.
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« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2009, 08:27:38 PM »

The more time goes on, the more I think Hopeful Faithful is an act.  Regardless, I think you guys give him too much credit Wink

I also sometimes wonder if his posts are all parody and not serious.  I assure you, though, that I don't credit him and his (possibly) pet ideas in the least.  I respond as much as I can by giving real and true information so that readers will have true information if they wish it.  Truth to counter error and imagination.


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« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2009, 08:44:25 PM »

The more time goes on, the more I think Hopeful Faithful is an act.  Regardless, I think you guys give him too much credit Wink

I also sometimes wonder if his posts are all parody and not serious.  I assure you, though, that I don't credit him and his (possibly) pet ideas in the least.  I respond as much as I can by giving real and true information so that readers will have true information if they wish it.  Truth to counter error and imagination.




If that's how you want to spend your time, fine; this is a forum and we certainly don't mind the extra posts flying about. But I just wonder if you don't get tired of responding to him. Maybe if we all gave him the silent treatment he would give up and go away lol.
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« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2009, 08:51:49 PM »

If that's how you want to spend your time, fine; this is a forum and we certainly don't mind the extra posts flying about. But I just wonder if you don't get tired of responding to him. Maybe if we all gave him the silent treatment he would give up and go away lol.

You could very well be right.  Smiley  I shall try to do so, or if not that, not engage him but only make a post with true information to counter something clearly false.


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« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2009, 08:55:54 PM »

A slight correction, Handmaiden. The Greeks wore the chiton, the Romans the toga.  Wink Grin

But I fear that our friend HopefulFaithful might reject even these garments as suitable, given their pagan origins ...  Tongue Roll Eyes

Actually, your fears are proven correct! Smiley


The word pallbearer is derived from such a concept. The idea is to cover with, or as with, a pall. Similar to the flag which drapes over the coffin of an American veteran. Often velvet, or anything that overspreads a tomb or altar in much the same way. So this suggests the idea of wrapping a shroud around something, giving a kind of tiresome gloom or weariness which is understood as unpleasant or distasteful in some way. It is also similar to the meaning behind an ecclesiastical stole, which keeps and protects in a decorative manner. Frequently it has been a thin or flat square piece of board, covered with linen and embroidered in order to cover a chalice, so as to keep anything harmful from entering into its precious contents. It is similar to a graduation hat or like the yoke of service to Christ. Some see it in the form of a Y which goes over the top of the shoulders. It is understood as a cloth for feet washing. It maintains cleanliness. It can be a robe or a cloak which is worn especially during worship. This type of thing was actually worn by the first Christians, instead of the pagan Roman toga. This kind of cloth is sometimes used to create darkness by covering a window.
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« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2009, 08:58:26 PM »

What about pseudo-knots like some pony tails?  Tongue
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« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2009, 09:02:10 PM »

I nominate this thread for 'the most ridiculous thread of a lifetime' award.
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« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2009, 09:52:02 PM »

No.
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« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2009, 09:52:54 PM »

I doubt his replies are parody, but I could be wrong...
I used to have opinions as rediculous as his, maybe not in terms of faith/religion, but in terms of architecture and such... Later I realized my radical position was extremely wrong and dangerously on the fringe of fanaticism... (not the good kind, mind you)

Hopefully he will realize his fanaticism (bad kind) and his radical positions are simply misinformed and immature.

I wonder what he thinks about Chotki, or even Old Believer Lestovka's...
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« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2009, 10:39:17 PM »

Hopeful Faithful,

After doing extensive research into the Old Faith, I am convinced that there must be a better way for those who truly wish to follow Christ. Look at this rampant liberalism I have found amongst Old Believers.

I should not even have to note the horribly sinful things evident in this photograph, but I will.

All of these women have the headcovering fastened under their chins, contrary to icons;

One woman is in a short skirt. Why was she not immediately cast out? The Bible tells us to cast out the evil among us.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Te_Deum_Elizarovo_Guslitsa_8484.jpg

Yes, John Alden, those of us seeking true faith in Christ will have to keep looking.
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« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2009, 10:46:13 PM »

Hopeful Faithful,

After doing extensive research into the Old Faith, I am convinced that there must be a better way for those who truly wish to follow Christ. Look at this rampant liberalism I have found amongst Old Believers.

I should not even have to note the horribly sinful things evident in this photograph, but I will.

All of these women have the headcovering fastened under their chins, contrary to icons;

One woman is in a short skirt. Why was she not immediately cast out? The Bible tells us to cast out the evil among us.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Te_Deum_Elizarovo_Guslitsa_8484.jpg

Yes, John Alden, those of us seeking true faith in Christ will have to keep looking.

*gasp* Some even have hair showing! Eees outrage!  Shocked
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