Author Topic: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church  (Read 11358 times)

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Offline Ebor

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2009, 08:49:06 PM »


Maybe, but she never did borne him a male heir. I know what you are saying: Had he not wasted time bickering with Rome for an annulment, the precious time lost might have been used to procreate with Anne.

How much time did he lose requesting the annulment?
 

The document requesting the annulment is in the Vatican archives and is dated July 13, 1530.  http://www.cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=13708
Henry started to become concerned that he had no male heir as early as 1525.  As a side-note, he knew Anne Boleyn but she would not yield to his advances at that time. He finally married her in the latter part of 1532 with the official marriage in January 1533. So there is a span of years that possibly could have brought forth a son that lived.  Anne had two sons after Elizabeth, neither of whom lived long at all.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/aboutAnneBoleyn.htm

So, again, we cannot know what might have happened, but one might think of alternate paths if the annulment had been granted.

Ebor 

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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2009, 12:32:00 AM »
Unfortunately, the Pope was unable to give it a full hearing with Emperor Charles breathing down his neck.

One of those things.

I must say that one of the saints coming out of the whole tragic business was Charles' aunt, Catherine of Aragon. She could not violate her conscience refused to go along, despite Henry's resulting extremely cruel treatment of her (and of her daughter Mary). She swore to Henry she would be obedient to him in everything, save her conscience and God. She suffered for her conscience and for the rights of her daughter.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 12:32:26 AM by lubeltri »

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2009, 06:01:29 PM »
It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.

Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
I just posted what I read in the news, nothing more. What many of us consider controversial is highly ambiguous. I've heard more things about this lady via Spanish news but it wouldn't be right posting it like I did before; doesn't feel right. There's a fine line between conveying news and gossip. I know I have crossed it unknowingly, so i'll just shut my mouth, for goodness sake. :-X
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 06:03:26 PM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2009, 07:12:08 PM »
It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.

Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
I just posted what I read in the news, nothing more. What many of us consider controversial is highly ambiguous. I've heard more things about this lady via Spanish news but it wouldn't be right posting it like I did before; doesn't feel right. There's a fine line between conveying news and gossip. I know I have crossed it unknowingly, so i'll just shut my mouth, for goodness sake. :-X
Yes, the Spanish news seems very interested in this story.  But in any case, the more that is learned, the worse it becomes.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2009, 11:16:20 PM »
It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.

Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
I just posted what I read in the news, nothing more. What many of us consider controversial is highly ambiguous. I've heard more things about this lady via Spanish news but it wouldn't be right posting it like I did before; doesn't feel right. There's a fine line between conveying news and gossip. I know I have crossed it unknowingly, so i'll just shut my mouth, for goodness sake. :-X
Yes, the Spanish news seems very interested in this story.  But in any case, the more that is learned, the worse it becomes.
And you know the Spanish media is very gossipy. Best to leave it at that :-\
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline stanley123

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2009, 02:10:24 AM »
The document requesting the annulment is in the Vatican archives and is dated July 13, 1530.  http://www.cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=13708
Henry started to become concerned that he had no male heir as early as 1525.  As a side-note, he knew Anne Boleyn but she would not yield to his advances at that time. He finally married her in the latter part of 1532 with the official marriage in January 1533. So there is a span of years that possibly could have brought forth a son that lived.  Anne had two sons after Elizabeth, neither of whom lived long at all.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/aboutAnneBoleyn.htm

So, again, we cannot know what might have happened, but one might think of alternate paths if the annulment had been granted.

Ebor 


I have noticed that the Roman Catholic Church marriage tribunals in the USA have been pretty liberal in granting marriage annulments since Vatican II. For example, in 1930, there were 9 marriage annulments per year in the USA, whereas in recent years it has gone as high as 60,000 marriage annulments in the USA per year. Before Vatican II, there had to be serious and compelling reasons, such as the individual was already secretly married, before this annulment would be granted. But after Vatican II, there began the acceptance of flimsy psychological reasons which were never admitted before. So I suspect that had this policy of granting easy marriage annulments been in effect in 1530, it is entirely conceivable that Henry VIII would have been granted his annulment.

Offline Ebor

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2009, 11:55:19 AM »
It is still historically the case that annulments were granted to royalty and nobility and for such a reason as that there were no male heirs.  This was the case with Eleanor of Acquitaine and Louis of France, for example.  So it was not a matter of needing "easy annulment" practices.
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Offline AntonI

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2009, 12:06:52 PM »
When it comes to royal annulments, I also think of poor Ingeborg of Denmark, the wife of Philip II Augustus of France...

England might as well have remained Catholic had Uncle Charles not held Pope Clement VII a prisoner...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingeborg_of_Denmark,_Queen_of_France
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Offline Ebor

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2009, 05:55:07 PM »
Indeed, that is a sad case. Considering that Philip II Augustus was the son of Louis VII by his third wife (his second wife after Eleanor died in childbirth after having more daughters) it might seem like there was a pattern of behaviour.  It's interesting to read that Philip II Augustus married Ingeborg partly because of trying to make a claim on the throne of England though the Danes and that was in the 1190s! 
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2009, 07:10:28 PM »
The document requesting the annulment is in the Vatican archives and is dated July 13, 1530.  http://www.cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=13708
Henry started to become concerned that he had no male heir as early as 1525.  As a side-note, he knew Anne Boleyn but she would not yield to his advances at that time. He finally married her in the latter part of 1532 with the official marriage in January 1533. So there is a span of years that possibly could have brought forth a son that lived.  Anne had two sons after Elizabeth, neither of whom lived long at all.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/aboutAnneBoleyn.htm

So, again, we cannot know what might have happened, but one might think of alternate paths if the annulment had been granted.

Ebor 


I have noticed that the Roman Catholic Church marriage tribunals in the USA have been pretty liberal in granting marriage annulments since Vatican II. For example, in 1930, there were 9 marriage annulments per year in the USA, whereas in recent years it has gone as high as 60,000 marriage annulments in the USA per year. Before Vatican II, there had to be serious and compelling reasons, such as the individual was already secretly married, before this annulment would be granted. But after Vatican II, there began the acceptance of flimsy psychological reasons which were never admitted before. So I suspect that had this policy of granting easy marriage annulments been in effect in 1530, it is entirely conceivable that Henry VIII would have been granted his annulment.

I heard that the majority of petitons for annulments come from the USA.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2009, 02:09:03 AM »
I heard that the majority of petitons for annulments come from the USA.

Yes, most. That says a lot about American culture, I think.

Offline stanley123

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2009, 02:36:53 AM »


Yes, most. That says a lot about American culture, I think.
I heard on the radio that the priest has married his friend.

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2009, 02:43:03 AM »


Yes, most. That says a lot about American culture, I think.
I heard on the radio that the priest has married his friend.
What?!! :o... and nobody invited me to the wedding? 
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Offline monkvasyl

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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2009, 02:19:03 PM »
That link just took me to Yahoo's homepage :-\
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline monkvasyl

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2009, 02:28:29 PM »
Originally it was in the news section, but its not there now and I tried checking in the video section and its not even there.  If I find it I'll repost the link.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2009, 02:37:57 PM »
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :P)
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Offline Rosehip

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2009, 02:44:09 PM »
I haven't read through this whole thread, so forgive me if I am repeating something already addressed, but couldn't the man have remained an RC but just given up his priestly status?
+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +

Offline Ebor

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2009, 02:56:11 PM »
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :P)

Why would I get mad at you?  :)

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  ;)
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2009, 03:08:22 PM »
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :P)

Why would I get mad at you?  :)

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  ;)
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 03:08:50 PM by ChristusDominus »
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline Ebor

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2009, 03:26:26 PM »
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :P)

Why would I get mad at you?  :)

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  ;)
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?

A friend has told me of an old pattern of a boy attending, I think it was called something like Junior Seminary starting on the priest track at a very young age and then moving on to Seminary proper.  I don't know of there are still the junior versions.  However, I assure you that Anglican clergy have a lot of study with a bachelors, then seminary as well as pastoral work in the field and more.  I would match any Anglican clergy's education to any RC with confidence.   :)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2009, 03:34:53 PM »
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :P)

Why would I get mad at you?  :)

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  ;)
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?

A friend has told me of an old pattern of a boy attending, I think it was called something like Junior Seminary starting on the priest track at a very young age and then moving on to Seminary proper.  I don't know of there are still the junior versions.  However, I assure you that Anglican clergy have a lot of study with a bachelors, then seminary as well as pastoral work in the field and more.  I would match any Anglican clergy's education to any RC with confidence.   :)
Given what those seminaries are producing, I'm not sure that's a compliment.
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Offline monkvasyl

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2009, 04:15:20 PM »
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :P)

Why would I get mad at you?  :)

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  ;)
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?

A friend has told me of an old pattern of a boy attending, I think it was called something like Junior Seminary starting on the priest track at a very young age and then moving on to Seminary proper.  I don't know of there are still the junior versions.  However, I assure you that Anglican clergy have a lot of study with a bachelors, then seminary as well as pastoral work in the field and more.  I would match any Anglican clergy's education to any RC with confidence.   :)
Given what those seminaries are producing, I'm not sure that's a compliment.

I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...Minor seminaries were already a thing of the past.  Episcopal seminaries may be getting an intense education, but the theology is no were close to being "orthodox".  The new head of the Episcopal Divinity School, in Cambridge, MA, is a lesbian, who is quoted as saying, "Abortion is a blessing."  The article appeared in a recent issue of The Boston Phoenix, a newspaper I only use to line the floor, for my beagles, while I'm at work.  I think I still have a copy if anyone is interested in starting a new topic.  Its an eye opener.

I found the article online:  http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/84424-blessing-of-abortion/
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 04:18:48 PM by monkvasyl »
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2009, 04:41:33 PM »
I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...

No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.

Offline monkvasyl

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2009, 04:51:38 PM »
I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...

No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.

In case you might be wondering, I was a Franciscan studing at the seminary in Boston, our house was right across from the seminary.  We rented from a group of Irish nuns.  The priest who taught us New Testament studies used Protestant sources.  But our patristics professor, was grounded in good, strong theology.  The one good thing that happened while there was getting to met Mother Teresa.
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Offline SDMPNS

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2009, 04:55:09 PM »
Some of the most highly educated and well read clergy I have ever known were Episcopalian..we would do well to emulate their system of education in our Orthodox seminaries..

Offline stanley123

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2009, 05:06:06 PM »
No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. .
Why do we hear of so many problems with the Catholic seminaries, but not as many with the Orthodox seminaries?

Offline SDMPNS

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2009, 05:20:18 PM »
We do not have as many and we have done a better job of hiding our problems. We are not on the radar as there are not as many of us. There have been several sex scandals at St. Vladamir's and Holy Cross and do not forget the former Bishop of Alaska and his overbearing ways at St.Herman's.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2009, 05:32:50 PM »
I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...

No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.

In case you might be wondering, I was a Franciscan studing at the seminary in Boston, our house was right across from the seminary.  We rented from a group of Irish nuns.  The priest who taught us New Testament studies used Protestant sources.  But our patristics professor, was grounded in good, strong theology.  The one good thing that happened while there was getting to met Mother Teresa.

No kidding! You studied at St. John's Seminary in Brighton?

I often go to St. Anthony's Shrine in Boston, which is run by the OFMs. You were OFM? OFM Conv.? Or a Capuchin?

Offline monkvasyl

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2009, 05:37:17 PM »
I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...

No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.

In case you might be wondering, I was a Franciscan studing at the seminary in Boston, our house was right across from the seminary.  We rented from a group of Irish nuns.  The priest who taught us New Testament studies used Protestant sources.  But our patristics professor, was grounded in good, strong theology.  The one good thing that happened while there was getting to met Mother Teresa.

No kidding! You studied at St. John's Seminary in Brighton?

I often go to St. Anthony's Shrine in Boston, which is run by the OFMs. You were OFM? OFM Conv.? Or a Capuchin?

Yes, St. John's was my stomping ground.  I was OFM, like at the Shrine, but our group were Italians (Immaculate Conception Province) and most of our houses were in Cambridge, the North End and East Boston.  The group that ran the Shrine were the Holy Name Province, who had a parish in my neighborhood back in Wilkes-Barre, PA.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 05:38:27 PM by monkvasyl »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2009, 05:43:15 PM »
Some of the most highly educated and well read clergy I have ever known were Episcopalian..we would do well to emulate their system of education in our Orthodox seminaries..
And end up with this?

http://www.stjoan.com/er7/spong/michael.jpg

despite the efforts of some (a certain seminary is noted for lack of pastoral sense, and exalting higher criticism for Holy T/tradition.  No, not Holy Cross), no thanks.
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Offline SDMPNS

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2009, 05:45:39 PM »
WE would be a little more discerning..after all we do have Truth on our side

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2009, 05:54:07 PM »
Yes, St. John's was my stomping ground.  I was OFM, like at the Shrine, but our group were Italians (Immaculate Conception Province) and most of our houses were in Cambridge, the North End and East Boston. 

Yes---I go to the Italian Mass sometimes at St. Leonard's (I used to live in the North End). Good group of Italian friars there.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2009, 06:08:52 PM »
I'm unfortunately all-too-familiar with the Episcopal Divinity School near Harvard Square in Cambridge.

The new "abortion is a blessing" rector has been quite the talk of the town lately:



A Harvard friend not long ago directed me to their course catalog. An example of one of the courses in their Theology department:

T 3150 Queer Incarnation

The incarnation is sometimes presented as an arithmetic problem: What do you get when you add some divinity to a human body? But thinking about incarnation has to start much further back, in the realization that accounts of Jesus show us how little we understand about either divinity or bodies, much less about how bodies can show, act, and becomes divine. Just here and theology of the incarnation can learn from works of queer theory and the writings of queer thinkers. The body of Jesus - despised, de-sexed, and yet miraculously distrubuted - invites us to an exchange of bodies along the margins of human power and its certainties. We will think about the queerness of Jesus' body with the help of some traditional texts on incarnation and passion (Athanasius, Bonaventure, Aquinas, Julian) and much more recent work on gender performance, bodily transition or transformation, and the rituals of camp.

That last phrase made me laugh.


Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2009, 06:11:51 PM »
The new head of the Episcopal Divinity School, in Cambridge, MA, is a lesbian, who is quoted as saying, "Abortion is a blessing."  The article appeared in a recent issue of The Boston Phoenix, a newspaper I only use to line the floor, for my beagles, while I'm at work.  I think I still have a copy if anyone is interested in starting a new topic.  Its an eye opener.

Thank you for sharing this.  Some of my fellow students and co-workers in my secular, state-sponsored Religious Studies program are Episcopalians.  This reflects the attitudes of every single one of these individuals.  One such student plans to attend a theological seminary in California after completing her master's degree, as it has always been her dream to be a priestess.  She left the Roman Catholic Church several years ago to be able to fulfill this dream.

When these people found out I was becoming Orthodox, their reaction was less than enthusiastic.  They see the Orthodox Church as even more backwards than the Roman Catholic Church; still being light years away from championing the rights of women.  They are right in many ways, but whatever good intentions they may have, they are primarily social activists.  Seekers of a pious life seems to be at the bottom of their list of priorities.

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2009, 06:12:07 PM »
Abortion is a blessing? I would sure hate to be in her shoes on Judgement Day.

Will we have shoes on, on Judgement Day? ....hmm :-\
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 06:23:05 PM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2009, 06:13:44 PM »
I'm unfortunately all-too-familiar with the Episcopal Divinity School near Harvard Square in Cambridge.

The new "abortion is a blessing" rector has been quite the talk of the town lately:



A Harvard friend not long ago directed me to their course catalog. An example of one of the courses in their Theology department:

T 3150 Queer Incarnation

The incarnation is sometimes presented as an arithmetic problem: What do you get when you add some divinity to a human body? But thinking about incarnation has to start much further back, in the realization that accounts of Jesus show us how little we understand about either divinity or bodies, much less about how bodies can show, act, and becomes divine. Just here and theology of the incarnation can learn from works of queer theory and the writings of queer thinkers. The body of Jesus - despised, de-sexed, and yet miraculously distrubuted - invites us to an exchange of bodies along the margins of human power and its certainties. We will think about the queerness of Jesus' body with the help of some traditional texts on incarnation and passion (Athanasius, Bonaventure, Aquinas, Julian) and much more recent work on gender performance, bodily transition or transformation, and the rituals of camp.

That last phrase made me laugh.



Ah, opting out of crying I see.

Notice how those most against "patriarchy" always wear their dog collar?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2009, 06:15:25 PM »
Pro-family and Pro-choice? Oxymoron, perhaps?
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #83 on: June 17, 2009, 06:19:15 PM »
T 3150 Queer Incarnation

The incarnation is sometimes presented as an arithmetic problem: What do you get when you add some divinity to a human body? But thinking about incarnation has to start much further back, in the realization that accounts of Jesus show us how little we understand about either divinity or bodies, much less about how bodies can show, act, and becomes divine. Just here and theology of the incarnation can learn from works of queer theory and the writings of queer thinkers. The body of Jesus - despised, de-sexed, and yet miraculously distrubuted - invites us to an exchange of bodies along the margins of human power and its certainties. We will think about the queerness of Jesus' body with the help of some traditional texts on incarnation and passion (Athanasius, Bonaventure, Aquinas, Julian) and much more recent work on gender performance, bodily transition or transformation, and the rituals of camp.

This is like a nightmare.  What are they referring to with "rituals of camp"?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #84 on: June 17, 2009, 06:20:16 PM »
T 3150 Queer Incarnation

The incarnation is sometimes presented as an arithmetic problem: What do you get when you add some divinity to a human body? But thinking about incarnation has to start much further back, in the realization that accounts of Jesus show us how little we understand about either divinity or bodies, much less about how bodies can show, act, and becomes divine. Just here and theology of the incarnation can learn from works of queer theory and the writings of queer thinkers. The body of Jesus - despised, de-sexed, and yet miraculously distrubuted - invites us to an exchange of bodies along the margins of human power and its certainties. We will think about the queerness of Jesus' body with the help of some traditional texts on incarnation and passion (Athanasius, Bonaventure, Aquinas, Julian) and much more recent work on gender performance, bodily transition or transformation, and the rituals of camp.

This is like a nightmare.  What are they referring to with "rituals of camp"?
DON'T ANSWER. :o
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #85 on: June 17, 2009, 06:20:55 PM »
Pro-family and Pro-choice? Oxymoron, perhaps?

Astute observation.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #86 on: June 17, 2009, 06:27:32 PM »
The new head of the Episcopal Divinity School, in Cambridge, MA, is a lesbian, who is quoted as saying, "Abortion is a blessing."  The article appeared in a recent issue of The Boston Phoenix, a newspaper I only use to line the floor, for my beagles, while I'm at work.  I think I still have a copy if anyone is interested in starting a new topic.  Its an eye opener.

Thank you for sharing this.  Some of my fellow students and co-workers in my secular, state-sponsored Religious Studies program are Episcopalians.  This reflects the attitudes of every single one of these individuals.  One such student plans to attend a theological seminary in California after completing her master's degree, as it has always been her dream to be a priestess.  She left the Roman Catholic Church several years ago to be able to fulfill this dream.

When these people found out I was becoming Orthodox, their reaction was less than enthusiastic.  They see the Orthodox Church as even more backwards than the Roman Catholic Church; still being light years away from championing the rights of women.  They are right in many ways, but whatever good intentions they may have, they are primarily social activists.  Seekers of a pious life seems to be at the bottom of their list of priorities.

Funny you should say that: the site I got the picture from has this wisdom that dreweled out of you know who's mouth:
Quote
Spong has learned much since those days, having talked to psychologists to investigate the cause and root of homosexuality and over time firmly feels that a gay lifestyle is perfectly acceptable in the eyes of God. Why do Christian Churches teach that homosexuality is wrong? “Prejudice and ignorance distorts a person’s mind,” Spong suggests. If you feel that way towards gay people, “your faith is simply window dressing over your prejudism,” he said.
http://www.stjoan.com/er7/spong/spong.htm

Just change that to:Why do liberal Christian Churches teach that homosexuality, abortion etc. are right? “Pride, libertinsim, ignorance and leftist social activism distorts a person’s mind,” If you feel that way towards traditionalist and conservative people, “your faith is simply window dressing over your prejudism and leftist activism."

Btw, our priest was once candidate for Episcopal bishop: he was black balled for one thing because he reaffirmed his belief in the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves.  He had reviewed the candidates for the priesthood at an Episcopal seminary. He found the only candidate worthy was a woman.  She ended up Orthodox though, the wife of our first priest.  Memory Eternal Khouriya April!
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #87 on: June 17, 2009, 07:58:37 PM »
Notice how those most against "patriarchy" always wear their dog collar?

All that collar is missing is a chain, lol.  :D

Offline Ebor

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #88 on: June 17, 2009, 10:42:35 PM »
Some of the most highly educated and well read clergy I have ever known were Episcopalian..we would do well to emulate their system of education in our Orthodox seminaries..

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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church
« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2009, 10:46:14 PM »
I concur that an authentically Anglican seminary education is excellent. Bishop N.T. Wright is a shining example of this record.

It goes without saying that the Episcopal Divinity School is operated by impostors.