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Author Topic: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church  (Read 10095 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 28, 2009, 05:04:31 PM »

Quote
(CNN)  -- Father Alberto Cutie, an internationally known Catholic priest who admitted having a romantic affair and breaking his vow of celibacy, is joining the Episcopal Church to be with the woman he loves, he said Thursday.

"Cutie" rhymes with the Latin quotidie.
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2009, 05:06:41 PM »

Good that he didn't want to start today by going into a new family in our Church.
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2009, 05:24:42 PM »

Wonder if this will affect relations between the Catholic and the Episcopal Churches. 

Interesting that this should happen after the Episcopal Church ousts 61 clergy.
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2009, 05:43:02 PM »

Don't forget the accent on the "e"

 Cutié

People in the Hispanic community that he served pretty much knew he was looking into the Episcopal Church. He even alluded to it during an interview. The lady he is courting is Latin American of Greek descent. Nothing novel.
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2009, 07:30:27 PM »

Wonder if this will affect relations between the Catholic and the Episcopal Churches. 

How would it?  A number of Episcopalian priests have gone to the RCC and many were reordained and are now priests there.   Undecided  There have been RCs who have come to the Anglicans in the past as well. 

Quote
Interesting that this should happen after the Episcopal Church ousts 61 clergy.

How so?  I doubt that there is any connection between the two instances and the case of the Diocese of San Joaquin is complicated. It is about a split where some parishes and the bishop leaving the Episcopal Church while other parishes remained.   

Ebor
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2009, 11:13:36 PM »

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.
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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2009, 12:07:03 AM »



I think he needs prayers more than criticism. What he did came out into the light and now he has to deal with it. In one of his last interviews, I sensed inner turmoil. Indeed, this man did seem afflicted. He was/is really loved by many people in the Hispanic community. I hope and pray that he once again, finds that inner peace that he so desperately needs.
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2009, 03:07:12 AM »

STATEMENT
from John C. Favalora, Archbishop of Miami, about Father Alberto Cutié's separation from the Roman Catholic Church.

Miami • May 28, 2009

I am genuinely disappointed by the announcement made earlier this afternoon by Father Alberto Cutié that he is joining the Episcopal Church.

According to our canon law, with this very act Father Cutié is separating himself from the communion of the Roman Catholic Church (c. 1364, §1) by professing erroneous faith and morals, and refusing submission to the Holy Father (canon 751).  He also is irregular for the exercise of sacred orders as a priest (canons 1041 and 1044, §1) and no longer has the faculties of the Archdiocese of Miami to celebrate the sacraments; nor may he preach or teach on Catholic faith and morals (cannon 1336, §1).  His actions could lead to his dismissal from the clerical state.

This means that Father Cutié is removing himself from full communion with the Catholic Church and thereby forfeiting his rights as a cleric.  Roman Catholics should not request the sacraments from Father Cuité.  Any sacramental actions he attempts to perform would be illicit.  Any Mass he says would be valid but illicit, meaning it does not meet a Catholic’s obligation.  Father Cutié cannot validly officiate at marriages of Roman Catholics in the Archdiocese of Miami or anywhere.

Father Cutié is still bound by his promise to live a celibate life, which he freely embraced at ordination.  Only the Holy Father can release him from that obligation.

To the Catholic faithful of Saint Francis de Sales Parish, Radio Paz and the entire Archdiocese of Miami, I again say that Father Cutié’s actions cannot be justified, despite his good works as a priest (statement of May 5, 2009).  This is all the more true in light of today’s announcement.  Father Cutié may have abandoned the Catholic Church; he may have abandoned you.   But I tell you that the Catholic Church will never abandon you; the Archdiocese of Miami is here for you.

Father Cutié’s actions have caused grave scandal within the Catholic Church, harmed the Archdiocese of Miami − especially our priests – and led to division within the ecumenical community and the community at large.  Today’s announcement only deepens those wounds.

When Father Cutié met with me on May 5th, he requested and I granted a leave of absence from the exercise of the priesthood.  Because of this, he could no longer be the administrator of St Francis de Sales Parish or the General Director of Radio Paz.  For the good of the Church and to avoid the media frenzy, I chose not to impose publicly an ecclesiastical penalty, although his admitted actions clearly warranted it.  Since that meeting, I have not heard from Father Cutié nor has he requested to meet with me.  He has never told me that he was considering joining the Episcopal Church.

I must also express my sincere disappointment with how Bishop Leo Frade of the Episcopal Diocese of Southeast Florida has handled this situation.  Bishop Frade has never spoken to me about his position on this delicate matter or what actions he was contemplating.  I have only heard from him through the local media.  This truly is a serious setback for ecumenical relations and cooperation between us.  The Archdiocese of Miami has never made a public display when for doctrinal reasons Episcopal priests have joined the Catholic Church and sought ordination.  In fact, to do so would violate the principles of the Catholic Church governing ecumenical relations.  I regret that Bishop Frade has not afforded me or the Catholic community the same courtesy and respect.

In my nearly 50 years as a priest, I have often preached on Jesus’ parable of the Prodigal Son – which really should be called the parable of the Forgiving Father (Luke 15, 11-32).  Perhaps the story told by the Lord so long ago is applicable to our discussions this afternoon.

A father had two sons.  One of them took his inheritance early and left home, spending his money wantonly.  The father waited patiently for the return of his prodigal son, who after he had seen the error of his ways, repented and returned home.  Upon his return, the father lovingly embraced him and called him his son.   I pray that Father Cutié will “come to his senses” (Luke 15, 17) and return home.  The Catholic Church seeks the conversion and salvation of sinners, not their condemnation.  The same is my attitude toward Father Cutié.

We must not forget, however, that there were two sons in the Lord’s story.  The other son, who never left home, was angry that his erring brother was welcomed home by the father.  To all faithful Catholics, I say what the father said to this second son:  “You are with me always and everything I have is yours.  But we had to celebrate and rejoice.  This brother of yours was dead and has come back to life.  He was lost, and is found” (Luke 15, 31-32).

In this beautiful parable Jesus teaches us that God is a loving and forgiving Father.  Each of us has experienced that love, each of us needs that forgiveness; for we are all sinners.  If our brother comes home, let us celebrate with the Father.

In conclusion, I commend and salute the priests of the Archdiocese of Miami and all priests who faithfully live and fulfill their promise of celibacy.  By their fidelity to their promise they reflect more clearly to the world the Christ whose total gift of himself to the Father was pure and chaste love for his brothers and sisters.  In our times so pre-occupied with sex, the gift of celibacy is all the more a sign of the Kingdom of Heaven where, as scripture says, there will be “no marrying or giving in marriage” (Matthew 22, 30).  I encourage all Catholics to pray for and support our dedicated priests.

Most Reverend John C. Favalora
Archbishop of Miami

http://www.miamiarchdiocese.org/ip.asp?op=H1000090528ACE
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2009, 03:49:45 AM »

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2009, 04:09:00 AM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Lord have Mercy!
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2009, 04:34:12 AM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Lord have Mercy!
It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.

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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2009, 09:05:59 AM »

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.

"that lot" being the Episcopal  Church?   Undecided  We do have standards but that does make the news stories much. 

Sigh.
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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2009, 09:10:21 AM »

Wonder if this will affect relations between the Catholic and the Episcopal Churches. 

How would it?  A number of Episcopalian priests have gone to the RCC and many were reordained and are now priests there.   Undecided  There have been RCs who have come to the Anglicans in the past as well. 

Quote
Interesting that this should happen after the Episcopal Church ousts 61 clergy.

How so?  I doubt that there is any connection between the two instances and the case of the Diocese of San Joaquin is complicated. It is about a split where some parishes and the bishop leaving the Episcopal Church while other parishes remained.   

Ebor

Well, I just saw the connection with those ousted, as they where trying to remain "orthodox" in their practice, and here on the other coast they accept a priest who has broken his vows.  I personally would have problem accepting a priest like that, since he, in my opinion, isn't trustworthy.

Yea, the Catholics have received Anglicans into the Church and for that matter so have we as Orthodox.  It just reopens a sore with me.  I was visiting a Ukrainian Catholic priest when Boston was making its first female bishop, Barbara Harris.  At the end of the ceremony, the Episcopal priest, who was doing the commentary, spoke to us watching on TV.  He said that all Catholics and Orthodox, who felt it was right to make female clergy should come to them.  "We have done it and you have a home with us."  Now if the statement by the archbishop doesn't raise a few eyebrows in the Episcopal Church nothing will.  Personally, I just can't understand either the Orthodox or Catholics having any dialogue with the Episcopal Church, as they have removed themselves so much from the tradition of the Church.  When a church starts caterring to the whims of its people and ignoring the message of the Gospel and the living Tradition of the Church, there's no room for dialogue.
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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2009, 09:23:52 AM »

Well, I just saw the connection with those ousted[.]

They weren't ousted; they quit, along with their bishop, in a move that should be familiar to the Orthodox.
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2009, 09:49:49 AM »

Don't forget the accent on the "e"

 Cutié

People in the Hispanic community that he served pretty much knew he was looking into the Episcopal Church. He even alluded to it during an interview. The lady he is courting is Latin American of Greek descent. Nothing novel.


Interesting, and telling, then that he went Episcopalian and not Orthodox.
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« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2009, 10:01:13 AM »

Just saw this:  http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/05/cutie.html?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed4

Some of the comments below the article are rather telling from an Episcopal point of view:

"At Episcopal Cafe, Jim Naughton has some misgivings:

"Anybody else have mixed feelings about this? One can oppose mandatory priestly celibacy and still feel uneasy about the Rev. Cutié jumping so quickly and publicly to new ministry in a new church after being caught in the act of breaking his ordination vows. No?"

And Rod Dreher, at Beliefnet, also is uneasy:

"That his new bishop received him without the catechumen period, and not only that but has scheduled him to preach at the cathedral on Sunday, reflects poorly not only on Cutié, but on the Episcopal bishop. Showboaters."
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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2009, 10:42:49 AM »

"Cutie"[/url] rhymes with the Latin quotidie.

Yes. Disappointing, that.

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« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2009, 02:04:16 PM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?
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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2009, 02:15:00 PM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?

I think it was meant for the present day priest, tho both left for the same reason, sort of.
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« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2009, 02:19:55 PM »



Interesting, and telling, then that he went Episcopalian and not Orthodox.

Not surprising. Episcopalians allow priests to get married after their ordinations.
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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2009, 02:22:21 PM »

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?
Quote
I think it was meant for the present day priest, tho both left for the same reason, sort of.

Indeed. They both wanted to betray vows they made before God, and both became Anglicans to do it.
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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2009, 03:12:11 PM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?
I don't think Padre Cutié is comparable to him, he hasn't executed any of his many wives Roll Eyes
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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2009, 03:40:51 PM »

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?
Quote
I think it was meant for the present day priest, tho both left for the same reason, sort of.

Indeed. They both wanted to betray vows they made before God, and both became Anglicans to do it.

Yeah, shame Henry couldn't just get an annullment like everyone else because Catherine's nephew was beseiging Rome.  Could of saved us a lot of trouble.
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2009, 04:08:56 PM »

Yeah, shame Henry couldn't just get an annullment like everyone else because Catherine's nephew was beseiging Rome.  Could of saved us a lot of trouble.

Counterfactual argument.

You cannot be sure that Henry would have gotten his wish, and you can't be sure that he would not have schismed if he did. After all, Ann Boleyn was only #2 of 6.
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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2009, 04:23:09 PM »

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.
AMEN.



I think he needs prayers more than criticism. What he did came out into the light and now he has to deal with it. In one of his last interviews, I sensed inner turmoil. Indeed, this man did seem afflicted. He was/is really loved by many people in the Hispanic community. I hope and pray that he once again, finds that inner peace that he so desperately needs.

On the one hand, if he had the option to marry before ordination he would have taken it and all would be fine.  If he had taken a leave to sort through things, and then decided to go Episcopal, that would be better.  But he snuck around until he was caught.  What is left is a mess like happened with Bp. Aftimos Ofiesh.  That took decades to clear up.  In some ways, it still isn't.

STATEMENT
from John C. Favalora, Archbishop of Miami, about Father Alberto Cutié's separation from the Roman Catholic Church.

Miami • May 28, 2009

Father Cutié’s actions have caused grave scandal within the Catholic Church, harmed the Archdiocese of Miami − especially our priests – and led to division within the ecumenical community and the community at large.  Today’s announcement only deepens those wounds.

When Father Cutié met with me on May 5th, he requested and I granted a leave of absence from the exercise of the priesthood.  Because of this, he could no longer be the administrator of St Francis de Sales Parish or the General Director of Radio Paz.  For the good of the Church and to avoid the media frenzy, I chose not to impose publicly an ecclesiastical penalty, although his admitted actions clearly warranted it.  Since that meeting, I have not heard from Father Cutié nor has he requested to meet with me.  He has never told me that he was considering joining the Episcopal Church.

Since this situation is dissimilar to the abuse scandal (and the scandal among the Antiochians about another bishop in Florida), the actions the bishop took were totally appropriate and Christian.

Quote
I must also express my sincere disappointment with how Bishop Leo Frade of the Episcopal Diocese of Southeast Florida has handled this situation.  Bishop Frade has never spoken to me about his position on this delicate matter or what actions he was contemplating.  I have only heard from him through the local media.  This truly is a serious setback for ecumenical relations and cooperation between us.  The Archdiocese of Miami has never made a public display when for doctrinal reasons Episcopal priests have joined the Catholic Church and sought ordination.  In fact, to do so would violate the principles of the Catholic Church governing ecumenical relations.  I regret that Bishop Frade has not afforded me or the Catholic community the same courtesy and respect.

That is what wishy-washy "dialogue" gets you.

Quote
In conclusion, I commend and salute the priests of the Archdiocese of Miami and all priests who faithfully live and fulfill their promise of celibacy.  By their fidelity to their promise they reflect more clearly to the world the Christ whose total gift of himself to the Father was pure and chaste love for his brothers and sisters.  In our times so pre-occupied with sex, the gift of celibacy is all the more a sign of the Kingdom of Heaven where, as scripture says, there will be “no marrying or giving in marriage” (Matthew 22, 30).  I encourage all Catholics to pray for and support our dedicated priests.

How about our dedicated MARRIED PRIESTS (and yes, the Vatican has them too)?
This was unnecessary.  If mandated celibacy, which is NEITHER Apostolic nor Catholic, was not in place, perhaps this could have been avoided.

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Lord have Mercy!
It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.

Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
Quote
When she assumed this position in 1989, she broke a 2,000-year-old tradition stretching back to the time of Christ.
http://www.visionaryproject.com/harrisbarbara/
Quote
The Rev. Barbara Harris, 58, a divorced black and soundly left-wing cleric with no earned undergraduate or seminary degree and little parish experience, was consecrated a bishop in The Episcopal Church...As an African-American bishop, Harris has spent most of her career whipping up hatred against orthodox Episcopalians for their faithfulness to Scripture and tradition and engendering guilt amongst whites for not being black enough...If she had announced she was a lesbian, it might have killed her consecration. The church had to wait till the time was ripe for a Gene Robinson to emerge on the Episcopal stage of pansexuality. Today it would be a different story for Ms. Harris...Among her achievements are being a signatory to the infamous Koinonia Statement by Bishop John Shelby Spong in support of the ordination of lesbigays and blessing their relationships...Her most memorable thought, and one that she will be remembered for, is one she delivered at the 1998 Lambeth Conference where she was so miserable about the presence of so many orthodox bishops. She said, "If a**holes had wings, this place would be an airport." It was also at Lambeth that she announced that the African bishops had been bought off with "chicken dinners." Had anyone else used such a racial stereotype, Ms. Harris would have howled with outrage. But Black on Black stereotyping is apparently acceptable...She also ripped the Pastoral Council announced by the Primates and Archbishop of Canterbury in Alexandria, Egypt, recently as "an added layer of ecclesiastical bureaucracy that we do not need.""We need to simply trust each other that we are acting in the best interests of our respective provinces. Interventions and crossing provincial boundaries need to stop. That is not a solution to controversies within a province. I think that schism is real, because we have competing claims of orthodoxy and other claims that are cause for hostility and division. A covenant or a Windsor Report [is] not going to quell controversy."
Honesty for a change.
Quote
In 2001, clearly fed up with the dwindling orthodox bishops in TEC, Harris stood up in the House of Bishops just before she retired as suffragan bishop of Massachusetts and said traditionalists should just leave The Episcopal Church. Well, they have and many are fighting for their properties.

When the infamous Canon (A045) on the ordination of women erupted at General Convention, then PB Frank Griswold said it should be implemented with "courtesy, tolerance, mutual respect and prayer for one another." Not Harris. She, along with NY Bishop Catherine Roskam railed against the dwindling Anglo-Catholic bishops and said their refusal to ordain women was "injustice towards women". Newark deputy Michael Rehill joined in the chorus and said, "The will of General Convention must be enforced." It was. Now all three bishops have left TEC taking their dioceses with them.
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10048

(Btw, I am less than thrilled that the Episcopalians came to Egypt to paper over their problems).

Back to the OP: just like Bp. Oftiesh's "situation" gave us an increased vagranti problem, non-canonical groups (he is one of the "legitimate" lines of the uncanonical Ukrainian bishops), division of the Church in America, easing the way for the American Church to be dismissed, etc. Bp.  Roll Eyes Barbara Harrison's "ordination" provided a similar service.  This latest situation in Miami will do the same.  Btw, TAC has a similar problem with its much heralded union with the Vatican, because of similar situation's with their primate.

Case in point:

Wonder if this will affect relations between the Catholic and the Episcopal Churches. 

How would it?  A number of Episcopalian priests have gone to the RCC and many were reordained and are now priests there.   Undecided  There have been RCs who have come to the Anglicans in the past as well. 

Quote
Interesting that this should happen after the Episcopal Church ousts 61 clergy.

How so?  I doubt that there is any connection between the two instances and the case of the Diocese of San Joaquin is complicated. It is about a split where some parishes and the bishop leaving the Episcopal Church while other parishes remained.   

Ebor

Well, I just saw the connection with those ousted, as they where trying to remain "orthodox" in their practice, and here on the other coast they accept a priest who has broken his vows.  I personally would have problem accepting a priest like that, since he, in my opinion, isn't trustworthy.

Yea, the Catholics have received Anglicans into the Church and for that matter so have we as Orthodox.  It just reopens a sore with me.  I was visiting a Ukrainian Catholic priest when Boston was making its first female bishop, Barbara Harris.  At the end of the ceremony, the Episcopal priest, who was doing the commentary, spoke to us watching on TV.  He said that all Catholics and Orthodox, who felt it was right to make female clergy should come to them.  "We have done it and you have a home with us."  Now if the statement by the archbishop doesn't raise a few eyebrows in the Episcopal Church nothing will.  Personally, I just can't understand either the Orthodox or Catholics having any dialogue with the Episcopal Church, as they have removed themselves so much from the tradition of the Church.  When a church starts caterring to the whims of its people and ignoring the message of the Gospel and the living Tradition of the Church, there's no room for dialogue.

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.

"that lot" being the Episcopal  Church?   Undecided  We do have standards but that does make the news stories much. 

Sigh.

What standards would that be? Bp. Spong's?

Schism in not always a bad thing: like cutting off an an arm when it is gangerous.  Otherwise it spreads to the rest of the body....

Well, I just saw the connection with those ousted[.]

They weren't ousted; they quit, along with their bishop, in a move that should be familiar to the Orthodox.


Yes, and we deal with it, for example:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21467.0.html

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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2009, 06:37:53 PM »

Yeah, shame Henry couldn't just get an annullment like everyone else because Catherine's nephew was beseiging Rome.  Could of saved us a lot of trouble.

Counterfactual argument.

You cannot be sure that Henry would have gotten his wish, and you can't be sure that he would not have schismed if he did. After all, Ann Boleyn was only #2 of 6.

Who is it at the Corban tribunal that said "with a little effort, we can annull any marriage?"  He would have gotten one, just like his aunt.  And for Ann, she was the only one married when the previous marriage was in question.
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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2009, 07:29:16 PM »

An annulment would have never changed anything. He was bent on doing his own thing. What did he do with Boleyn?, had her executed on false charges of adultery even after he had his way.
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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2009, 10:02:08 PM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?

I think it was meant for the present day priest, tho both left for the same reason, sort of.

Sigh.  There is a thread here on the forum in which some of the history and information about Henry Tudor was given.  In his case it was a matter of politics and succession.  He did not try to get an annulment, which was different from a divorce, because he wanted a new woman for fun.  He needed a male heir to secure the throne since he was only the second Tudor after the Wars of the Roses.   He knew that he could sire boys as he had a living son, Henry Fitzroy, whom he made the 1st Duke of Richmond and Somerset.  But note the "Fitz".  He was illegitimate and could not just inherit the throne without some special law.  Therefore, the fact that Catherine of Aragon only had a surviving daughter was a problem for the succession.  Before anyone makes remarks about the king having mistresses, he wasn't the only one and I can give information on some of those if needed.

Furthermore, both annulments and divorces proper were granted to royalty and nobility.  Just for an obvious example is the case King Louis VII of France and Eleanor of Acquitaine whose marriage was annulled because she did not give him a male heir to the throne. She went on to marry Henry I of England and bore him several sons, including Richard I and John of Magna Carta fame.

For me, I think that the very public story of joining ECUSA is erm. less then optimal. 

Ebor
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« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2009, 10:15:28 PM »

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.

"that lot" being the Episcopal  Church?   Undecided  We do have standards but that does make the news stories much. 

Sigh.

What standards would that be? Bp. Spong's?

Undecided  He is retired, his views have never been universally accepted in the Episcopal Church and, indeed, there were many objections and replies to his statements and books.  He got lots of press, because that's the kind of story that makes news.  Invoking the name of Spong does not describe the Episcopal Church as it really is in many places, let alone much of the Anglican Communion or multitudes of individuals who are Anglican.  It is a cheap shot.  Undecided

At this time there is a major showing of standards being exercised regarding the consent process for the proposed bishop of Northern Michigan. There are many bishops and standing committees who have voted no.

Ebor

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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2009, 10:22:01 PM »

An annulment would have never changed anything. He was bent on doing his own thing. What did he do with Boleyn?, had her executed on false charges of adultery even after he had his way.

May one ask how you know this?  Henry Tudor was bent on securing the line of succession for the English throne for which the times and culture preferred a male heir.  That it would be his daughter Elizabeth I who reigned long and with great renown could be considered ironic.

As an interesting side note, this is the 500th anniversary of Henry VIII's ascending the English Throne.

Ebor
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2009, 10:26:38 PM »

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.

"that lot" being the Episcopal  Church?   Undecided  We do have standards but that does make the news stories much. 

Sigh.

What standards would that be? Bp. Spong's?

Undecided  He is retired, his views have never been universally accepted in the Episcopal Church and, indeed, there were many objections and replies to his statements and books.  He got lots of press, because that's the kind of story that makes news.  Invoking the name of Spong does not describe the Episcopal Church as it really is in many places, let alone much of the Anglican Communion or multitudes of individuals who are Anglican.  It is a cheap shot.  Undecided

As long as there is ANY place for Bp. Spong, retired or otherwise, in the Anglican "communion," no, it is not cheap shot.

Quote
At this time there is a major showing of standards being exercised regarding the consent process for the proposed bishop of Northern Michigan. There are many bishops and standing committees who have voted no.

We'll see where it goes.
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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2009, 10:52:49 PM »

The man is retired and no longer a sitting bishop.  I don't even know where he is or what he is doing or if he is indeed attending any kind of church let alone an Anglican one. I'm not about to hunt him down and throw stones at him either. 

To toss off his name to make a jab at the Anglicans is a cheap shot and does not help in convincing others.   Sad

Re: the Northern Michigan election, are you actually following it?  There are places that are keeping an account of the publicly stated votes by both bishops and standing committees.  And if he is not consented to, will there be some charity addressed to Anglicans?
 Sad
 
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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2009, 11:10:51 PM »

The man is retired and no longer a sitting bishop.  I don't even know where he is or what he is doing or if he is indeed attending any kind of church let alone an Anglican one. I'm not about to hunt him down and throw stones at him either. 

To toss off his name to make a jab at the Anglicans is a cheap shot and does not help in convincing others.   Sad

Re: the Northern Michigan election, are you actually following it?  There are places that are keeping an account of the publicly stated votes by both bishops and standing committees.  And if he is not consented to, will there be some charity addressed to Anglicans?
 Sad
 

If they stop communing with Bp. Spong.
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« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2009, 01:30:03 AM »

An annulment would have never changed anything. He was bent on doing his own thing. What did he do with Boleyn?, had her executed on false charges of adultery even after he had his way.

May one ask how you know this? 
On 2 May 1536 Anne was arrested and taken to the Tower of London. She was accused of adultery, incest and high treason.[31] Although the evidence against them was unconvincing, the accused were found guilty and condemned to death by the peers. George Boleyn and the other accused men were executed on 17 May 1536. At 8 a.m. on 19 May 1536, the queen was executed on Tower Green. She knelt upright, in the French style of executions. The execution was swift and consisted of a single stroke.[32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_the_eighth
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« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2009, 02:11:26 AM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?

I'm sorry for being unclear. I was referring to Fr. Cutie.
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« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2009, 02:41:10 AM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?

I'm sorry for being unclear. I was referring to Fr. Cutie.
I think lubeltri was being facetious Roll Eyes
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« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2009, 04:31:09 PM »

I assure you, ChristusDominus, that I know the historical facts that you posted and they are not germane.  I am questioning how you know that the Church of England would have still split with Rome if Henry VIII had been given his annulment as many other kings and nobles had been given in the past.  In this case it was Henry who was being religiously scrupulous.  Because Catherine of Aragon was his older brother Arthur's widow, there had to be a special permission given by the Bishop of Rome for her to marry Henry as this is against scripture in the OT. When there were no living sons to the marriage this was a crisis in politics and Henry believed that God was punishing him for breaking the commandment on marriage.

Ebor 
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« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2009, 04:54:42 PM »

The man is retired and no longer a sitting bishop.  I don't even know where he is or what he is doing or if he is indeed attending any kind of church let alone an Anglican one. I'm not about to hunt him down and throw stones at him either. 

To toss off his name to make a jab at the Anglicans is a cheap shot and does not help in convincing others.   Sad

Re: the Northern Michigan election, are you actually following it?  There are places that are keeping an account of the publicly stated votes by both bishops and standing committees.  And if he is not consented to, will there be some charity addressed to Anglicans?
 Sad
 

If they stop communing with Bp. Spong.

Are you tracking whether he goes to communion?  I have no idea where he is now or if he attends a parish at all.  And supposed he is not taking communion, would you have a further requirement before you would exhibit some charity or empathy?
 Undecided

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« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2009, 07:29:06 PM »

The man is retired and no longer a sitting bishop.  I don't even know where he is or what he is doing or if he is indeed attending any kind of church let alone an Anglican one. I'm not about to hunt him down and throw stones at him either. 

To toss off his name to make a jab at the Anglicans is a cheap shot and does not help in convincing others.   Sad

Re: the Northern Michigan election, are you actually following it?  There are places that are keeping an account of the publicly stated votes by both bishops and standing committees.  And if he is not consented to, will there be some charity addressed to Anglicans?
 Sad
 

If they stop communing with Bp. Spong.

Are you tracking whether he goes to communion?  I have no idea where he is now or if he attends a parish at all.  And supposed he is not taking communion, would you have a further requirement before you would exhibit some charity or empathy?
 Undecided



You are whom you commune with: has he been deposed, or did he retire in good graces?  I've seen him speak for the Episcopal church, and besides complaints from traditionalists, no attack on his credentials to do so.
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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2009, 07:53:01 PM »

He speaks for himself, not the Church

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« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2009, 08:18:47 PM »

I assure you, ChristusDominus, that I know the historical facts that you posted and they are not germane.  I am questioning how you know that the Church of England would have still split with Rome if Henry VIII had been given his annulment as many other kings and nobles had been given in the past. 
I don't, but more than likey he would have, seeing how the following events transpired. I want to say it's an educated guess, but I can't; this dunce cap on my head won't permit it!
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« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2009, 12:05:09 PM »

I assure you, ChristusDominus, that I know the historical facts that you posted and they are not germane.  I am questioning how you know that the Church of England would have still split with Rome if Henry VIII had been given his annulment as many other kings and nobles had been given in the past. 
I don't, but more than likey he would have, seeing how the following events transpired. I want to say it's an educated guess, but I can't; this dunce cap on my head won't permit it!

I did not mean to imply that you were a dunce or anything like that.  I apologize for anything that I wrote that gave that impression. 

The thing is, one may speculate on how history would have been different, that's not the same as stating that something *would* have happened anyway.  If Henry had been given the annulment earlier, maybe Anne would have borne a boy that lived.  Then there could have been a whole different history without leaving Rome, without the Elizabethan age, with any number of differences that I can imagine.  It's a possibility. But that's not how things happened. 

Henry's concern was the succession, not sex or family life or companionship.  So introducing him into this thread looked more like taking a crack or cheap shot at my Church.  He and Fr. Cutie are two very different people in very different situations.

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2009, 03:00:44 PM »


Henry's concern was the succession, not sex or family life or companionship.  him So introducing into this thread looked more like taking a crack or cheap shot at my Church.  He and Fr. Cutie are two very different people in very different situations.

With respect,

Ebor
I was being facetious, my friend. I also never meant to take cheap shots at your church. I like the Anglican High Mass, very solemn. It's something the Western Rite might like to mirror
(just my opinion).

 I believe in mutual respect. It was never my intention to denigrate your faith nor your church. Someone just mentioned Henry the VIII in jest and I ran with it. Mea culpa
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« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2009, 03:15:51 PM »



Maybe, but she never did borne him a male heir. I know what you are saying: Had he not wasted time bickering with Rome for an annulment, the precious time lost might have been used to procreate with Anne.

How much time did he lose requesting the annulment?
 
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« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2009, 08:33:30 PM »

I was being facetious, my friend. I also never meant to take cheap shots at your church. I like the Anglican High Mass, very solemn. It's something the Western Rite might like to mirror
(just my opinion).

 I believe in mutual respect. It was never my intention to denigrate your faith nor your church. Someone just mentioned Henry the VIII in jest and I ran with it. Mea culpa

Thank you for your charity and courtesy.  It is sometimes hard to tell in posts when a person might be joking.  Sometimes, it's not, of course, when a post's language is much more ummm vehement.   Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2009, 08:49:06 PM »



Maybe, but she never did borne him a male heir. I know what you are saying: Had he not wasted time bickering with Rome for an annulment, the precious time lost might have been used to procreate with Anne.

How much time did he lose requesting the annulment?
 

The document requesting the annulment is in the Vatican archives and is dated July 13, 1530.  http://www.cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=13708
Henry started to become concerned that he had no male heir as early as 1525.  As a side-note, he knew Anne Boleyn but she would not yield to his advances at that time. He finally married her in the latter part of 1532 with the official marriage in January 1533. So there is a span of years that possibly could have brought forth a son that lived.  Anne had two sons after Elizabeth, neither of whom lived long at all.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/aboutAnneBoleyn.htm

So, again, we cannot know what might have happened, but one might think of alternate paths if the annulment had been granted.

Ebor 

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« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2009, 12:32:00 AM »

Unfortunately, the Pope was unable to give it a full hearing with Emperor Charles breathing down his neck.

One of those things.

I must say that one of the saints coming out of the whole tragic business was Charles' aunt, Catherine of Aragon. She could not violate her conscience refused to go along, despite Henry's resulting extremely cruel treatment of her (and of her daughter Mary). She swore to Henry she would be obedient to him in everything, save her conscience and God. She suffered for her conscience and for the rights of her daughter.
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« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2009, 06:01:29 PM »

It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.

Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
I just posted what I read in the news, nothing more. What many of us consider controversial is highly ambiguous. I've heard more things about this lady via Spanish news but it wouldn't be right posting it like I did before; doesn't feel right. There's a fine line between conveying news and gossip. I know I have crossed it unknowingly, so i'll just shut my mouth, for goodness sake. Lips Sealed
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« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2009, 07:12:08 PM »

It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.

Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
I just posted what I read in the news, nothing more. What many of us consider controversial is highly ambiguous. I've heard more things about this lady via Spanish news but it wouldn't be right posting it like I did before; doesn't feel right. There's a fine line between conveying news and gossip. I know I have crossed it unknowingly, so i'll just shut my mouth, for goodness sake. Lips Sealed
Yes, the Spanish news seems very interested in this story.  But in any case, the more that is learned, the worse it becomes.
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« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2009, 11:16:20 PM »

It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.

Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
I just posted what I read in the news, nothing more. What many of us consider controversial is highly ambiguous. I've heard more things about this lady via Spanish news but it wouldn't be right posting it like I did before; doesn't feel right. There's a fine line between conveying news and gossip. I know I have crossed it unknowingly, so i'll just shut my mouth, for goodness sake. Lips Sealed
Yes, the Spanish news seems very interested in this story.  But in any case, the more that is learned, the worse it becomes.
And you know the Spanish media is very gossipy. Best to leave it at that Undecided
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« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2009, 02:10:24 AM »

The document requesting the annulment is in the Vatican archives and is dated July 13, 1530.  http://www.cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=13708
Henry started to become concerned that he had no male heir as early as 1525.  As a side-note, he knew Anne Boleyn but she would not yield to his advances at that time. He finally married her in the latter part of 1532 with the official marriage in January 1533. So there is a span of years that possibly could have brought forth a son that lived.  Anne had two sons after Elizabeth, neither of whom lived long at all.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/aboutAnneBoleyn.htm

So, again, we cannot know what might have happened, but one might think of alternate paths if the annulment had been granted.

Ebor 


I have noticed that the Roman Catholic Church marriage tribunals in the USA have been pretty liberal in granting marriage annulments since Vatican II. For example, in 1930, there were 9 marriage annulments per year in the USA, whereas in recent years it has gone as high as 60,000 marriage annulments in the USA per year. Before Vatican II, there had to be serious and compelling reasons, such as the individual was already secretly married, before this annulment would be granted. But after Vatican II, there began the acceptance of flimsy psychological reasons which were never admitted before. So I suspect that had this policy of granting easy marriage annulments been in effect in 1530, it is entirely conceivable that Henry VIII would have been granted his annulment.
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« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2009, 11:55:19 AM »

It is still historically the case that annulments were granted to royalty and nobility and for such a reason as that there were no male heirs.  This was the case with Eleanor of Acquitaine and Louis of France, for example.  So it was not a matter of needing "easy annulment" practices.
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« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2009, 12:06:52 PM »

When it comes to royal annulments, I also think of poor Ingeborg of Denmark, the wife of Philip II Augustus of France...

England might as well have remained Catholic had Uncle Charles not held Pope Clement VII a prisoner...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingeborg_of_Denmark,_Queen_of_France
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« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2009, 05:55:07 PM »

Indeed, that is a sad case. Considering that Philip II Augustus was the son of Louis VII by his third wife (his second wife after Eleanor died in childbirth after having more daughters) it might seem like there was a pattern of behaviour.  It's interesting to read that Philip II Augustus married Ingeborg partly because of trying to make a claim on the throne of England though the Danes and that was in the 1190s! 
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« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2009, 07:10:28 PM »

The document requesting the annulment is in the Vatican archives and is dated July 13, 1530.  http://www.cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=13708
Henry started to become concerned that he had no male heir as early as 1525.  As a side-note, he knew Anne Boleyn but she would not yield to his advances at that time. He finally married her in the latter part of 1532 with the official marriage in January 1533. So there is a span of years that possibly could have brought forth a son that lived.  Anne had two sons after Elizabeth, neither of whom lived long at all.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/aboutAnneBoleyn.htm

So, again, we cannot know what might have happened, but one might think of alternate paths if the annulment had been granted.

Ebor 


I have noticed that the Roman Catholic Church marriage tribunals in the USA have been pretty liberal in granting marriage annulments since Vatican II. For example, in 1930, there were 9 marriage annulments per year in the USA, whereas in recent years it has gone as high as 60,000 marriage annulments in the USA per year. Before Vatican II, there had to be serious and compelling reasons, such as the individual was already secretly married, before this annulment would be granted. But after Vatican II, there began the acceptance of flimsy psychological reasons which were never admitted before. So I suspect that had this policy of granting easy marriage annulments been in effect in 1530, it is entirely conceivable that Henry VIII would have been granted his annulment.

I heard that the majority of petitons for annulments come from the USA.
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« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2009, 02:09:03 AM »

I heard that the majority of petitons for annulments come from the USA.

Yes, most. That says a lot about American culture, I think.
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« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2009, 02:36:53 AM »



Yes, most. That says a lot about American culture, I think.
I heard on the radio that the priest has married his friend.
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« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2009, 02:43:03 AM »



Yes, most. That says a lot about American culture, I think.
I heard on the radio that the priest has married his friend.
What?!! Shocked... and nobody invited me to the wedding? 
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« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2009, 02:11:24 PM »

They are married now:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31407037/ns/us_news-faith/?GT1=43001

Yahoo has video:  http://www.yahoo.com/
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« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2009, 02:19:03 PM »

That link just took me to Yahoo's homepage Undecided
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« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2009, 02:28:29 PM »

Originally it was in the news section, but its not there now and I tried checking in the video section and its not even there.  If I find it I'll repost the link.
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« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2009, 02:37:57 PM »

Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this Tongue)
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« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2009, 02:44:09 PM »

I haven't read through this whole thread, so forgive me if I am repeating something already addressed, but couldn't the man have remained an RC but just given up his priestly status?
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« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2009, 02:56:11 PM »

Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this Tongue)

Why would I get mad at you?  Smiley

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  Wink
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« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2009, 03:08:22 PM »

Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this Tongue)

Why would I get mad at you?  Smiley

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  Wink
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?
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« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2009, 03:26:26 PM »

Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this Tongue)

Why would I get mad at you?  Smiley

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  Wink
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?

A friend has told me of an old pattern of a boy attending, I think it was called something like Junior Seminary starting on the priest track at a very young age and then moving on to Seminary proper.  I don't know of there are still the junior versions.  However, I assure you that Anglican clergy have a lot of study with a bachelors, then seminary as well as pastoral work in the field and more.  I would match any Anglican clergy's education to any RC with confidence.   Smiley
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« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2009, 03:34:53 PM »

Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this Tongue)

Why would I get mad at you?  Smiley

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  Wink
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?

A friend has told me of an old pattern of a boy attending, I think it was called something like Junior Seminary starting on the priest track at a very young age and then moving on to Seminary proper.  I don't know of there are still the junior versions.  However, I assure you that Anglican clergy have a lot of study with a bachelors, then seminary as well as pastoral work in the field and more.  I would match any Anglican clergy's education to any RC with confidence.   Smiley
Given what those seminaries are producing, I'm not sure that's a compliment.
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« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2009, 04:15:20 PM »

Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this Tongue)

Why would I get mad at you?  Smiley

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  Wink
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?

A friend has told me of an old pattern of a boy attending, I think it was called something like Junior Seminary starting on the priest track at a very young age and then moving on to Seminary proper.  I don't know of there are still the junior versions.  However, I assure you that Anglican clergy have a lot of study with a bachelors, then seminary as well as pastoral work in the field and more.  I would match any Anglican clergy's education to any RC with confidence.   Smiley
Given what those seminaries are producing, I'm not sure that's a compliment.

I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...Minor seminaries were already a thing of the past.  Episcopal seminaries may be getting an intense education, but the theology is no were close to being "orthodox".  The new head of the Episcopal Divinity School, in Cambridge, MA, is a lesbian, who is quoted as saying, "Abortion is a blessing."  The article appeared in a recent issue of The Boston Phoenix, a newspaper I only use to line the floor, for my beagles, while I'm at work.  I think I still have a copy if anyone is interested in starting a new topic.  Its an eye opener.

I found the article online:  http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/84424-blessing-of-abortion/
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« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2009, 04:41:33 PM »

I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...

No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.
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« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2009, 04:51:38 PM »

I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...

No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.

In case you might be wondering, I was a Franciscan studing at the seminary in Boston, our house was right across from the seminary.  We rented from a group of Irish nuns.  The priest who taught us New Testament studies used Protestant sources.  But our patristics professor, was grounded in good, strong theology.  The one good thing that happened while there was getting to met Mother Teresa.
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« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2009, 04:55:09 PM »

Some of the most highly educated and well read clergy I have ever known were Episcopalian..we would do well to emulate their system of education in our Orthodox seminaries..
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« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2009, 05:06:06 PM »

No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. .
Why do we hear of so many problems with the Catholic seminaries, but not as many with the Orthodox seminaries?
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« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2009, 05:20:18 PM »

We do not have as many and we have done a better job of hiding our problems. We are not on the radar as there are not as many of us. There have been several sex scandals at St. Vladamir's and Holy Cross and do not forget the former Bishop of Alaska and his overbearing ways at St.Herman's.
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« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2009, 05:32:50 PM »

I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...

No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.

In case you might be wondering, I was a Franciscan studing at the seminary in Boston, our house was right across from the seminary.  We rented from a group of Irish nuns.  The priest who taught us New Testament studies used Protestant sources.  But our patristics professor, was grounded in good, strong theology.  The one good thing that happened while there was getting to met Mother Teresa.

No kidding! You studied at St. John's Seminary in Brighton?

I often go to St. Anthony's Shrine in Boston, which is run by the OFMs. You were OFM? OFM Conv.? Or a Capuchin?
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« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2009, 05:37:17 PM »

I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...

No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.

In case you might be wondering, I was a Franciscan studing at the seminary in Boston, our house was right across from the seminary.  We rented from a group of Irish nuns.  The priest who taught us New Testament studies used Protestant sources.  But our patristics professor, was grounded in good, strong theology.  The one good thing that happened while there was getting to met Mother Teresa.

No kidding! You studied at St. John's Seminary in Brighton?

I often go to St. Anthony's Shrine in Boston, which is run by the OFMs. You were OFM? OFM Conv.? Or a Capuchin?

Yes, St. John's was my stomping ground.  I was OFM, like at the Shrine, but our group were Italians (Immaculate Conception Province) and most of our houses were in Cambridge, the North End and East Boston.  The group that ran the Shrine were the Holy Name Province, who had a parish in my neighborhood back in Wilkes-Barre, PA.
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« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2009, 05:43:15 PM »

Some of the most highly educated and well read clergy I have ever known were Episcopalian..we would do well to emulate their system of education in our Orthodox seminaries..
And end up with this?

http://www.stjoan.com/er7/spong/michael.jpg

despite the efforts of some (a certain seminary is noted for lack of pastoral sense, and exalting higher criticism for Holy T/tradition.  No, not Holy Cross), no thanks.
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« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2009, 05:45:39 PM »

WE would be a little more discerning..after all we do have Truth on our side
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« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2009, 05:54:07 PM »

Yes, St. John's was my stomping ground.  I was OFM, like at the Shrine, but our group were Italians (Immaculate Conception Province) and most of our houses were in Cambridge, the North End and East Boston. 

Yes---I go to the Italian Mass sometimes at St. Leonard's (I used to live in the North End). Good group of Italian friars there.
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« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2009, 06:08:52 PM »

I'm unfortunately all-too-familiar with the Episcopal Divinity School near Harvard Square in Cambridge.

The new "abortion is a blessing" rector has been quite the talk of the town lately:



A Harvard friend not long ago directed me to their course catalog. An example of one of the courses in their Theology department:

T 3150 Queer Incarnation

The incarnation is sometimes presented as an arithmetic problem: What do you get when you add some divinity to a human body? But thinking about incarnation has to start much further back, in the realization that accounts of Jesus show us how little we understand about either divinity or bodies, much less about how bodies can show, act, and becomes divine. Just here and theology of the incarnation can learn from works of queer theory and the writings of queer thinkers. The body of Jesus - despised, de-sexed, and yet miraculously distrubuted - invites us to an exchange of bodies along the margins of human power and its certainties. We will think about the queerness of Jesus' body with the help of some traditional texts on incarnation and passion (Athanasius, Bonaventure, Aquinas, Julian) and much more recent work on gender performance, bodily transition or transformation, and the rituals of camp.

That last phrase made me laugh.

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« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2009, 06:11:51 PM »

The new head of the Episcopal Divinity School, in Cambridge, MA, is a lesbian, who is quoted as saying, "Abortion is a blessing."  The article appeared in a recent issue of The Boston Phoenix, a newspaper I only use to line the floor, for my beagles, while I'm at work.  I think I still have a copy if anyone is interested in starting a new topic.  Its an eye opener.

Thank you for sharing this.  Some of my fellow students and co-workers in my secular, state-sponsored Religious Studies program are Episcopalians.  This reflects the attitudes of every single one of these individuals.  One such student plans to attend a theological seminary in California after completing her master's degree, as it has always been her dream to be a priestess.  She left the Roman Catholic Church several years ago to be able to fulfill this dream.

When these people found out I was becoming Orthodox, their reaction was less than enthusiastic.  They see the Orthodox Church as even more backwards than the Roman Catholic Church; still being light years away from championing the rights of women.  They are right in many ways, but whatever good intentions they may have, they are primarily social activists.  Seekers of a pious life seems to be at the bottom of their list of priorities.
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« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2009, 06:12:07 PM »

Abortion is a blessing? I would sure hate to be in her shoes on Judgement Day.

Will we have shoes on, on Judgement Day? ....hmm Undecided
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« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2009, 06:13:44 PM »

I'm unfortunately all-too-familiar with the Episcopal Divinity School near Harvard Square in Cambridge.

The new "abortion is a blessing" rector has been quite the talk of the town lately:



A Harvard friend not long ago directed me to their course catalog. An example of one of the courses in their Theology department:

T 3150 Queer Incarnation

The incarnation is sometimes presented as an arithmetic problem: What do you get when you add some divinity to a human body? But thinking about incarnation has to start much further back, in the realization that accounts of Jesus show us how little we understand about either divinity or bodies, much less about how bodies can show, act, and becomes divine. Just here and theology of the incarnation can learn from works of queer theory and the writings of queer thinkers. The body of Jesus - despised, de-sexed, and yet miraculously distrubuted - invites us to an exchange of bodies along the margins of human power and its certainties. We will think about the queerness of Jesus' body with the help of some traditional texts on incarnation and passion (Athanasius, Bonaventure, Aquinas, Julian) and much more recent work on gender performance, bodily transition or transformation, and the rituals of camp.

That last phrase made me laugh.



Ah, opting out of crying I see.

Notice how those most against "patriarchy" always wear their dog collar?
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« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2009, 06:15:25 PM »

Pro-family and Pro-choice? Oxymoron, perhaps?
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« Reply #83 on: June 17, 2009, 06:19:15 PM »

T 3150 Queer Incarnation

The incarnation is sometimes presented as an arithmetic problem: What do you get when you add some divinity to a human body? But thinking about incarnation has to start much further back, in the realization that accounts of Jesus show us how little we understand about either divinity or bodies, much less about how bodies can show, act, and becomes divine. Just here and theology of the incarnation can learn from works of queer theory and the writings of queer thinkers. The body of Jesus - despised, de-sexed, and yet miraculously distrubuted - invites us to an exchange of bodies along the margins of human power and its certainties. We will think about the queerness of Jesus' body with the help of some traditional texts on incarnation and passion (Athanasius, Bonaventure, Aquinas, Julian) and much more recent work on gender performance, bodily transition or transformation, and the rituals of camp.

This is like a nightmare.  What are they referring to with "rituals of camp"?
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« Reply #84 on: June 17, 2009, 06:20:16 PM »

T 3150 Queer Incarnation

The incarnation is sometimes presented as an arithmetic problem: What do you get when you add some divinity to a human body? But thinking about incarnation has to start much further back, in the realization that accounts of Jesus show us how little we understand about either divinity or bodies, much less about how bodies can show, act, and becomes divine. Just here and theology of the incarnation can learn from works of queer theory and the writings of queer thinkers. The body of Jesus - despised, de-sexed, and yet miraculously distrubuted - invites us to an exchange of bodies along the margins of human power and its certainties. We will think about the queerness of Jesus' body with the help of some traditional texts on incarnation and passion (Athanasius, Bonaventure, Aquinas, Julian) and much more recent work on gender performance, bodily transition or transformation, and the rituals of camp.

This is like a nightmare.  What are they referring to with "rituals of camp"?
DON'T ANSWER. Shocked
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« Reply #85 on: June 17, 2009, 06:20:55 PM »

Pro-family and Pro-choice? Oxymoron, perhaps?

Astute observation.
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« Reply #86 on: June 17, 2009, 06:27:32 PM »

The new head of the Episcopal Divinity School, in Cambridge, MA, is a lesbian, who is quoted as saying, "Abortion is a blessing."  The article appeared in a recent issue of The Boston Phoenix, a newspaper I only use to line the floor, for my beagles, while I'm at work.  I think I still have a copy if anyone is interested in starting a new topic.  Its an eye opener.

Thank you for sharing this.  Some of my fellow students and co-workers in my secular, state-sponsored Religious Studies program are Episcopalians.  This reflects the attitudes of every single one of these individuals.  One such student plans to attend a theological seminary in California after completing her master's degree, as it has always been her dream to be a priestess.  She left the Roman Catholic Church several years ago to be able to fulfill this dream.

When these people found out I was becoming Orthodox, their reaction was less than enthusiastic.  They see the Orthodox Church as even more backwards than the Roman Catholic Church; still being light years away from championing the rights of women.  They are right in many ways, but whatever good intentions they may have, they are primarily social activists.  Seekers of a pious life seems to be at the bottom of their list of priorities.

Funny you should say that: the site I got the picture from has this wisdom that dreweled out of you know who's mouth:
Quote
Spong has learned much since those days, having talked to psychologists to investigate the cause and root of homosexuality and over time firmly feels that a gay lifestyle is perfectly acceptable in the eyes of God. Why do Christian Churches teach that homosexuality is wrong? “Prejudice and ignorance distorts a person’s mind,” Spong suggests. If you feel that way towards gay people, “your faith is simply window dressing over your prejudism,” he said.
http://www.stjoan.com/er7/spong/spong.htm

Just change that to:Why do liberal Christian Churches teach that homosexuality, abortion etc. are right? “Pride, libertinsim, ignorance and leftist social activism distorts a person’s mind,” If you feel that way towards traditionalist and conservative people, “your faith is simply window dressing over your prejudism and leftist activism."

Btw, our priest was once candidate for Episcopal bishop: he was black balled for one thing because he reaffirmed his belief in the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves.  He had reviewed the candidates for the priesthood at an Episcopal seminary. He found the only candidate worthy was a woman.  She ended up Orthodox though, the wife of our first priest.  Memory Eternal Khouriya April!
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« Reply #87 on: June 17, 2009, 07:58:37 PM »

Notice how those most against "patriarchy" always wear their dog collar?

All that collar is missing is a chain, lol.  Cheesy
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« Reply #88 on: June 17, 2009, 10:42:35 PM »

Some of the most highly educated and well read clergy I have ever known were Episcopalian..we would do well to emulate their system of education in our Orthodox seminaries..

Thank you for your charity, SDMPNS
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« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2009, 10:46:14 PM »

I concur that an authentically Anglican seminary education is excellent. Bishop N.T. Wright is a shining example of this record.

It goes without saying that the Episcopal Divinity School is operated by impostors.
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« Reply #90 on: June 17, 2009, 10:46:48 PM »

Its posted in the news he's married to her now...
Are congrats and many years in order now.....
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« Reply #91 on: June 17, 2009, 10:51:07 PM »

Why would one not wish a couple a long, faithful and happy marriage?
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« Reply #92 on: June 17, 2009, 11:02:25 PM »

I rather see him this way married,,, than him still being a Catholic priest and continuing by having a hidden love affair....


So yes he has my congrats and many many years to him and his bride.....
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« Reply #93 on: June 17, 2009, 11:26:00 PM »

Abortion is a blessing? I would sure hate to be in her shoes on Judgement Day.

Will we have shoes on, on Judgement Day? ....hmm Undecided

Maybe not on Judgement, but in Heaven? Yes, says the old Negro Spiritual:
Quote
   I got shoes, you got shoes
   All God's children got shoes.
   When I get to Heaven gonna put on my shoes,
   Gonna walk all over God's Heaven, Heaven, Heaven.
   Everybody talkin' 'bout Heaven, ain't going there, Heaven,
      Heaven,
   Gonna walk all over God's Heaven.

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« Reply #94 on: June 17, 2009, 11:54:12 PM »

Why would one not wish a couple a long, faithful and happy marriage?


Would you feel the same way if, instead he broke his vows to the church, he broke them to (what would be) his (first) wife?

This reeks of deceit.  May it be fertilizer for a rose blossom, but things like this, with this much duplicity (both with his affair, and then his "translation" afterwards), chances aren't good.....
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« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2009, 12:33:05 AM »

Abortion is a blessing? I would sure hate to be in her shoes on Judgement Day.

Will we have shoes on, on Judgement Day? ....hmm Undecided

Maybe not on Judgement, but in Heaven? Yes, says the old Negro Spiritual:
Quote
   I got shoes, you got shoes
   All God's children got shoes.
   When I get to Heaven gonna put on my shoes,
   Gonna walk all over God's Heaven, Heaven, Heaven.
   Everybody talkin' 'bout Heaven, ain't going there, Heaven,
      Heaven,
   Gonna walk all over God's Heaven.


I'm tapping my foot Smiley
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« Reply #96 on: June 18, 2009, 12:57:57 AM »

This reeks of deceit.  May it be fertilizer for a rose blossom, but things like this, with this much duplicity (both with his affair, and then his "translation" afterward), chances aren't good...

Great analogy!  I never would have thought of referring to this union as feces with the potential for positive outgrowth.  Cheers!   Cheesy
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« Reply #97 on: June 18, 2009, 12:59:35 AM »

What are they referring to with "rituals of camp"?

Still waiting...  Grin
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« Reply #98 on: June 18, 2009, 01:15:21 AM »

What are they referring to with "rituals of camp"?

Still waiting...  Grin
E.g., the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence
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« Reply #99 on: June 18, 2009, 09:13:06 AM »

What are they referring to with "rituals of camp"?

Still waiting...  Grin

The High Priestess of the Church of Camp:



Some of her disciples:



In this religion there is only one commandment:

Be Fabulous.

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« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2009, 09:24:29 AM »

What are they referring to with "rituals of camp"?

Still waiting...  Grin

The High Priestess of the Church of Camp:



Some of her disciples:



In this religion there is only one commandment:

Be Fabulous.


Btw, I hear the Chasity is having a sex change.
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« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2009, 09:32:59 AM »

What are they referring to with "rituals of camp"?

Still waiting...  Grin

The closest I will come to defining "camp" is to use the example of 2 TV series:  Batman & Dark Shadows.  Batman was just so silly and over the top and Dark Shadows (a show I loved as a child...still do) is considered camp due to its over exaggerated acting...like Grayson Hall as Dr. Hoffman.  I remember when Pope John Paul II came to San Francisco, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, leas a protest against His Holiness.  What an embarrassment to the USA.
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« Reply #102 on: June 18, 2009, 02:14:28 PM »

This was taken from the Episcopal Divinity School website:

Quote
The curriculum and course listings at Episcopal Divinity School are structured around the seven theological disciplines, the canonical areas required of candidates for ordination in the Episcopal Church: Biblical, Historical, Liturgical, Theological, Ethical, Pastoral, and Studies in Contemporary Society. In addition, EDS emphasizes throughout the curriculum three particular Areas of Emphasis, which intersect these seven theological disciplines and each other: Anglican, Global, and Ecumenical Studies (AGE); Congregational Studies (CSt); and Studies in Feminist Liberation Theologies (FLT). Together they promote an integrated theological education that is rooted in local communities of faith, committed to liberatory praxis, and critically engaged with global and ecumenical issues.

That really says it all.  This is more about political activism than the traditional gospel of Christ.

Their course listing is unreal:

http://www.eds.edu/sec.asp?pageID=88

Third World Feminist Theology

Transforming Mission: Towards a Post-Modern Missiology

Liberating Jesus

Eros, Sexuality, and the Spirit

Homosexuality: Theological and Ethical Introduction
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« Reply #103 on: June 18, 2009, 04:14:03 PM »

Btw, I hear the Chasity is having a sex change.

Totally fabulous!  Wink
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« Reply #104 on: June 18, 2009, 04:38:47 PM »

Their course listing is unreal:

http://www.eds.edu/sec.asp?pageID=88

Third World Feminist Theology

Transforming Mission: Towards a Post-Modern Missiology

Liberating Jesus

Eros, Sexuality, and the Spirit

Homosexuality: Theological and Ethical Introduction

Consider the description of Liberating Jesus: "Retreat-style introduction to feminist, womanist, postcolonial, and other christologies of liberation."

Sounds more like my postmodern theorist-dominated English department at uni than anything bearing resemblance to Christianity.

Another... Feminist Theories and Theologizing:

"This course introduces the student to varieties of feminist theories and theorists, e.g. liberal feminism, radical feminism, Marxist feminism, postcolonial feminism, womanist theorists, and Asian-American feminism, in order to provide a theoretical foundation for theologizing on behalf of women. This course fulfills the "feminist theory" requirement for the MATS student concentrating in FLT."


All of this smacks of a desperate desire to appear as trendy as possible to secularist progressive circles.

Of course, the following is the most fashionable "cause" of all right now:

Homosexuality: Theological and Ethical Introduction:

"This course will introduce students to significant Christian theological and ethical materials on sexuality that have emerged in Western Christianity since the 1970's. We will consider theologically, shifts in interests and emphases from "homosexual" (pre-1969) to "gay/lesbian" (1970-80's) to "lgbt" and "queer" (1990's-present). Special attention will be given to some of the most pressing theo-ethical matters facing queer Christians today, such as what our[?] best leadership roles might be in an increasingly repressive [!!!!! Shocked] society."
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« Reply #105 on: June 18, 2009, 04:49:53 PM »

Lord, have mercy!! Shocked
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« Reply #106 on: June 18, 2009, 06:24:39 PM »

Btw, I hear the Chasity is having a sex change.

Totally fabulous!  Wink

Supposedly this is so she can marry her partner: which raises the question.

If Chastity became a man, would her partner cease to be a lesbian?

And if so, why does she not go for a real man anyways now?
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« Reply #107 on: June 18, 2009, 06:36:35 PM »

Btw, I hear the Chasity is having a sex change.

Totally fabulous!  Wink

Supposedly this is so she can marry her partner: which raises the question.

If Chastity became a man, would her partner cease to be a lesbian?

And if so, why does she not go for a real man anyways now?
It's complicated.
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« Reply #108 on: June 18, 2009, 06:41:30 PM »

Btw, I hear the Chasity is having a sex change.

Totally fabulous!  Wink

Supposedly this is so she can marry her partner: which raises the question.

If Chastity became a man, would her partner cease to be a lesbian?

And if so, why does she not go for a real man anyways now?
It's complicated.

I'm sure it is.  Personally I've always thought of myself as a lesbian trapped in a man's body. Tongue
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« Reply #109 on: June 18, 2009, 07:35:04 PM »

Homosexuality: Theological and Ethical Introduction:

"This course will introduce students to significant Christian theological and ethical materials on sexuality that have emerged in Western Christianity since the 1970's. We will consider theologically, shifts in interests and emphases from "homosexual" (pre-1969) to "gay/lesbian" (1970-80's) to "lgbt" and "queer" (1990's-present). Special attention will be given to some of the most pressing theo-ethical matters facing queer Christians today, such as what our[?] best leadership roles might be in an increasingly repressive [!!!!! Shocked] society."

Things are moving in their direction.  Gay marriage is inevitable, then polygamy, then consensual bestiality.  OK, maybe not the last one.  I really don't see things as being increasingly "repressive."  Traditional Christian values are out; "progressive" "values" are all the rage.

Although I can't say I'm entirely opposed to the government sanctioning homosexual unions.  It's one of those things I go back and forth on.  I wonder if eventually some (non-US) governments will require all religious institutions to perform homosexual marriages under hate crime prevention legislation or something like that.
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« Reply #110 on: June 18, 2009, 08:47:59 PM »

I'm sure it is.  Personally I've always thought of myself as a lesbian trapped in a man's body. Tongue

LMAO  Cheesy
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« Reply #111 on: June 18, 2009, 08:53:14 PM »

Homosexuality: Theological and Ethical Introduction:

"This course will introduce students to significant Christian theological and ethical materials on sexuality that have emerged in Western Christianity since the 1970's. We will consider theologically, shifts in interests and emphases from "homosexual" (pre-1969) to "gay/lesbian" (1970-80's) to "lgbt" and "queer" (1990's-present). Special attention will be given to some of the most pressing theo-ethical matters facing queer Christians today, such as what our[?] best leadership roles might be in an increasingly repressive [!!!!! Shocked] society."

Things are moving in their direction.  Gay marriage is inevitable, then polygamy, then consensual bestiality.  OK, maybe not the last one. 

You mean you don't need Bambi's consent. Shocked

Quote
Although I can't say I'm entirely opposed to the government sanctioning homosexual unions.  It's one of those things I go back and forth on.  I wonder if eventually some (non-US) governments will require all religious institutions to perform homosexual marriages under hate crime prevention legislation or something like that.

Don't worry.

They will.
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« Reply #112 on: June 18, 2009, 09:11:41 PM »

Why would one not wish a couple a long, faithful and happy marriage?


Would you feel the same way if, instead he broke his vows to the church, he broke them to (what would be) his (first) wife?

If going along the lines of a person trying harder to make things work, yes, I could see giving good wishes that this time would be a renewal after a fall and repenting.

Quote
This reeks of deceit.  May it be fertilizer for a rose blossom, but things like this, with this much duplicity (both with his affair, and then his "translation" afterwards), chances aren't good.....

I don't know the man or the woman personally and I suspect that no one else here does either.  I'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt that they have repented of a mistake or fall and that they will try harder this time.  People can also have things happen in life that they didn't look for or changes that come from unexpected circumstances or situations in which other people do things to them.  I will choose mercy and not judging other people that I don't know rather then declarations about strangers and their lives.

As a side note, none of the people or characters in the pictures are Anglican, though I suppose some might be RC. So while lurid they don't seem to have any application to the topic.


Ebor
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« Reply #113 on: June 18, 2009, 09:17:11 PM »

I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...Minor seminaries were already a thing of the past. 

My friend was RC back in the 50s and 60s. Thank you for the information that the minor seminaries are not around any more.  It was my friend's thought that a boy being in such a situation during the adolescent and young adult years in effect kept some in an emotionally immature state so that they could not relate to others as adult males once they were ordained and given parishes. 
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« Reply #114 on: June 18, 2009, 09:30:17 PM »

Why would one not wish a couple a long, faithful and happy marriage?


Would you feel the same way if, instead he broke his vows to the church, he broke them to (what would be) his (first) wife?

If going along the lines of a person trying harder to make things work, yes, I could see giving good wishes that this time would be a renewal after a fall and repenting.
Do you see any repenting going on?  I seem to have missed it.


This reeks of deceit.  May it be fertilizer for a rose blossom, but things like this, with this much duplicity (both with his affair, and then his "translation" afterwards), chances aren't good.....

I don't know the man or the woman personally and I suspect that no one else here does either.  I'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt that they have repented of a mistake or fall and that they will try harder this time.  People can also have things happen in life that they didn't look for or changes that come from unexpected circumstances or situations in which other people do things to them.  I will choose mercy and not judging other people that I don't know rather then declarations about strangers and their lives.

No, if he had shut up, there might have been a point there. But it seems he is out to prove something, so no, when he went on to announce his defection to the Anglicans and scandalize the flock, no doubt is extended.
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« Reply #115 on: June 18, 2009, 09:42:34 PM »

Well, since neither of us is privy to his personal conversations, confessions or thoughts, I'm not going to make any assumptions on another person's mind, heart or soul.  If he married the woman, he is trying to do something right. 

A former priest of mine did "defect" if I were to use your word, but I don't, I just would say that he became RC.  I know something of what a flock feels when a shepherd goes elsewhere and I will choose mercy and not judging even in the midst of pain...   May we all be given mercy in the Dark Hours of life
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« Reply #116 on: June 18, 2009, 09:51:21 PM »

A former priest of mine did "defect" if I were to use your word, but I don't, I just would say that he became RC.  I know something of what a flock feels when a shepherd goes elsewhere and I will choose mercy and not judging even in the midst of pain...   May we all be given mercy in the Dark Hours of life

True...I wonder what this priest's congregation is thinking right now.
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« Reply #117 on: June 18, 2009, 09:54:42 PM »

Well, since neither of us is privy to his personal conversations, confessions or thoughts, I'm not going to make any assumptions on another person's mind, heart or soul. 

He got in front of a microphone, before a camera, and opened his mouth.  You have a right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used against you....

(for our non-American friends:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_right#Typical_usage
(btw, Miranda was as guilty as sin, and after a life of crime before and after Mirada v. Arizona)
Quote
On January 31, 1976, a violent fight broke out and Miranda received a mortal knife wound; he was pronounced dead on arrival at Good Samaritan Hospital. He was 34 years old. Police officers apprehended a male shortly afterwards and read him his Miranda rights from a small rectangular card. However, the suspect refused to cooperate with police and took advantage of his right to remain silent. According to one source, Miranda's killer could not be prosecuted because he fled to Mexico


Quote
If he married the woman, he is trying to do something right.

Or try to cover up the scandal.

Would ECUSA accept him if he didn't marry the woman?

Why didn't he ask for release to marry, before he was caught?

Quote
A former priest of mine did "defect" if I were to use your word, but I don't, I just would say that he became RC.  I know something of what a flock feels when a shepherd goes elsewhere and I will choose mercy and not judging even in the midst of pain...   May we all be given mercy in the Dark Hours of life
I'm beginning to see the Vatican line on Henry VIII
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« Reply #118 on: June 18, 2009, 09:55:30 PM »

A former priest of mine did "defect" if I were to use your word, but I don't, I just would say that he became RC.  I know something of what a flock feels when a shepherd goes elsewhere and I will choose mercy and not judging even in the midst of pain...   May we all be given mercy in the Dark Hours of life

True...I wonder what this priest's congregation is thinking right now.

Google, you'll see. If you can read Spanish, even more.
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« Reply #119 on: June 18, 2009, 10:00:08 PM »

Why would one not wish a couple a long, faithful and happy marriage?


Would you feel the same way if, instead he broke his vows to the church, he broke them to (what would be) his (first) wife?

If going along the lines of a person trying harder to make things work, yes, I could see giving good wishes that this time would be a renewal after a fall and repenting.
Do you see any repenting going on?  I seem to have missed it.


This reeks of deceit.  May it be fertilizer for a rose blossom, but things like this, with this much duplicity (both with his affair, and then his "translation" afterwards), chances aren't good.....

I don't know the man or the woman personally and I suspect that no one else here does either.  I'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt that they have repented of a mistake or fall and that they will try harder this time.  People can also have things happen in life that they didn't look for or changes that come from unexpected circumstances or situations in which other people do things to them.  I will choose mercy and not judging other people that I don't know rather then declarations about strangers and their lives.

No, if he had shut up, there might have been a point there. But it seems he is out to prove something, so no, when he went on to announce his defection to the Anglicans and scandalize the flock, no doubt is extended.

I smell a book deal coming......
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« Reply #120 on: June 18, 2009, 10:08:11 PM »

Quote
If he married the woman, he is trying to do something right.

Or try to cover up the scandal.

Some may choose to think worse of others....

Quote
Would ECUSA accept him if he didn't marry the woman?

As what?  A member?  Probably. But I'm not a bishop. That's not for me to decide.

One wonders if such declarations of breaking vows and how terrible it is would be being tossed around if the gentleman in question had decided to become EO. Would that be betrayal o promises or "coming "Home""?   Undecided

Quote
Why didn't he ask for release to marry, before he was caught?

I don't know. He does and God does and one would hope that he did speak plainly and opening to both the RC and ECUSA bishops.  He is a human being with free will and his reasons whatever they are. 

Ebor
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« Reply #121 on: June 18, 2009, 10:11:02 PM »

A former priest of mine did "defect" if I were to use your word, but I don't, I just would say that he became RC.  I know something of what a flock feels when a shepherd goes elsewhere and I will choose mercy and not judging even in the midst of pain...   May we all be given mercy in the Dark Hours of life

True...I wonder what this priest's congregation is thinking right now.

Probably a good bit of confusion and pain and grief and wondering how it could have happened and what does the deed say about what he was preaching and the sacraments he did before he left and some anger and feelings of being betrayed and abandoned.....

I've been there as have other Episcopalians I know
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« Reply #122 on: June 19, 2009, 12:23:31 AM »


One wonders if such declarations of breaking vows and how terrible it is would be being tossed around if the gentleman in question had decided to become EO. Would that be betrayal o promises or "coming "Home""?   Undecided


That is an easy question to answer. No way, no how would the EO accept him like this. Perhaps after a lengthy period of repentance and instruction, but not in short order and with a public media circus celebrating his infidelity.

EO may not be Catholics, but I am pretty confident they would not make a joke of their Church in a desperate attempt to stick their finger in the eye of the Catholic Church.

Bishop Frade showed what kind of prelate and man he is with his childish response to the Catholic Archbishop of Miami's complaints about the showboating going on: "The Inquisition is over."*

*Source: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/story/1086748.html
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« Reply #123 on: June 19, 2009, 12:28:06 AM »

Another telling thing about Bishop Frade from that article:

Frade has been an outspoken proponent of gay rights. In 2003, he was the only one of Florida's five Episcopal bishops to support the Rt. Rev. V. Gene Robinson, who is openly gay, as bishop of New Hampshire. ''You have to understand that I am the bishop of Key West, the bishop of South Beach, of Fort Lauderdale,'' he told The Herald at the time.

So, for him, his "constituency" is more important than Holy Scripture in determining Christian moral teaching.

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« Reply #124 on: June 19, 2009, 12:33:57 AM »

I don't mean any disrespect, and Bishop Frade doesn't speak for the entire Episcopal Church, but I think his words and actions have been pretty unbecoming of a Christian prelate.
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« Reply #125 on: June 19, 2009, 12:35:51 AM »

As a side note, none of the people or characters in the pictures are Anglican, though I suppose some might be RC. So while lurid they don't seem to have any application to the topic.

No doubt. The photos were an illustration of camp (in response to the query of another poster), not of Anglicans. For some reason camp is easier to show than to describe.  Wink
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« Reply #126 on: June 19, 2009, 01:11:32 AM »

Quote
Although I can't say I'm entirely opposed to the government sanctioning homosexual unions.  It's one of those things I go back and forth on.  I wonder if eventually some (non-US) governments will require all religious institutions to perform homosexual marriages under hate crime prevention legislation or something like that.
Don't worry.  They will.

I'm not so sure.  At least about it happening in the Unites States.  As far as I know, the religious institutions here are free to believe whatever they want to.  A church can refuse to marry an interracial couple on religious grounds, can they not?

The flip side of the coin is that no self-respecting person in our society would be part of such a church.  That is because social standards and morality have shifted on the issue.  So do Christians need to fear the same erosion fifty years down the line with regard to homosexuality?  When all states universally accept homosexual marriage, it will inevitably shift the mainstream culture's sense of morality on the issue.  Those churches which do not bow to the dominant ethos might become the outcasts.  So there seems to be a relation between common law and morality.

The arguments for homosexual marriage are also based on a different kind of morality, so either way this isn't about being objective, it's about being morally upright.  So part of the responsibility falls on believers to show what is immoral about homosexuality to begin with, beyond the written words of the Holy Scriptures.

Like I said, in my mind I go back and forth; back and forth on the issue.  I simultaneously support and oppose homosexual marriage based on conflicting religious principles against the need for acceptance and personal accountability in a pluralistic society.
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« Reply #127 on: June 19, 2009, 01:34:05 AM »

Quote
If he married the woman, he is trying to do something right.

Or try to cover up the scandal.

Some may choose to think worse of others....

Quote
Would ECUSA accept him if he didn't marry the woman?

As what?  A member?  Probably. But I'm not a bishop. That's not for me to decide.

One wonders if such declarations of breaking vows and how terrible it is would be being tossed around if the gentleman in question had decided to become EO. Would that be betrayal o promises or "coming "Home""?   Undecided

No need to wonder.  It has happened.  They were received as laymen, as they had married after ordination.

Why didn't he ask for release to marry, before he was caught?

I don't know. He does and God does and one would hope that he did speak plainly and opening to both the RC and ECUSA bishops.  He is a human being with free will and his reasons whatever they are. 

Ebor

According to the RC bishop, he was far from plain speaking.  Rather sneaky.  I'll take his word over the newly minted ECUSA priest, and for that matter that of the ECUSA bishop who took him.
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« Reply #128 on: June 19, 2009, 01:43:16 AM »

  A church can refuse to marry an interracial couple on religious grounds, can they not?
Which church are you talking about that has that policy?
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« Reply #129 on: June 19, 2009, 01:54:02 AM »

Which church are you talking about that has that policy?

I had no specific church in mind.  I was just bringing up that it would be permitted by the US government, since there is no regulation on religious belief.
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« Reply #130 on: June 19, 2009, 01:54:37 AM »

Quote
Although I can't say I'm entirely opposed to the government sanctioning homosexual unions.  It's one of those things I go back and forth on.  I wonder if eventually some (non-US) governments will require all religious institutions to perform homosexual marriages under hate crime prevention legislation or something like that.
Don't worry.  They will.

I'm not so sure.  At least about it happening in the Unites States.  As far as I know, the religious institutions here are free to believe whatever they want to.  A church can refuse to marry an interracial couple on religious grounds, can they not?

The flip side of the coin is that no self-respecting person in our society would be part of such a church.  That is because social standards and morality have shifted on the issue.  So do Christians need to fear the same erosion fifty years down the line with regard to homosexuality?  When all states universally accept homosexual marriage, it will inevitably shift the mainstream culture's sense of morality on the issue.  Those churches which do not bow to the dominant ethos might become the outcasts.  So there seems to be a relation between common law and morality.

The arguments for homosexual marriage are also based on a different kind of morality, so either way this isn't about being objective, it's about being morally upright.  So part of the responsibility falls on believers to show what is immoral about homosexuality to begin with, beyond the written words of the Holy Scriptures.

Like I said, in my mind I go back and forth; back and forth on the issue.  I simultaneously support and oppose homosexual marriage based on conflicting religious principles against the need for acceptance and personal accountability in a pluralistic society.

Response a little political, so I put it here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17609.new.html#new
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« Reply #131 on: January 04, 2011, 06:37:53 PM »

In the Roman Catholic Church, a scandal is not really a scandal until it becomes public,” Cutie writes in his new book, Dilemma: A Priest’s Struggle with Faith and Love, which hits stores Tuesday (Jan. 4).
....
As Cutie describes it in his book, his move to the Episcopal Church was not as quick and convenient as it appeared. In fact, he says his dissatisfaction with the Catholic Church had stewed for several years.

The scandal only intensified his disillusionment with a church he now describes as “incompetent,” “inhumane,” “merciless” and an “ideological dictatorship.”

“The church doesn’t need my help to tarnish its image,” Cutie said in an interview from his new office at the Episcopal Church of the Resurrection near Miami. “The institution has done plenty to tarnish its own image.”
....
“My life was all about work, but there was something in my life that was missing, a big empty hole: intimacy,” he said. “And I would ask whether (celibacy) was really God’s rule and what God wants or a man-made rule and what the church wants.”

The harsh treatment of priests who were ousted during the clergy abuse scandal that erupted in 2002 only fueled Cutie’s disillusionment, and he knew that mandatory celibacy was part of the problem.

“This is one of the real scandals nobody wants to see in the church: good people, mostly good men, who are so lonely on the inside that they are often driven to satisfy basic human emotional and physical needs in all the wrong ways,” he writes.
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« Reply #132 on: January 05, 2011, 02:58:15 AM »

Hopefully he will abandon the Episcopalians, and join The Holy Orthodox church as married Clergy....There By the Grace Of....It would be a rare Find to get a healthy ,heterosexual  married Catholic priest from the latin Church ,if they don't want him ,some part of Holy Orthodoxy will make room for him and the Misses..... Grin
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« Reply #133 on: January 07, 2011, 02:30:43 PM »

Hopefully he will abandon the Episcopalians, and join The Holy Orthodox church as married Clergy....There By the Grace Of....It would be a rare Find to get a healthy ,heterosexual  married Catholic priest from the latin Church ,if they don't want him ,some part of Holy Orthodoxy will make room for him and the Misses..... Grin

LOL, please take that whiny, self-pitying, narcissistic media whore. The ECUSA already has enough of that with Gene Robinson.
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« Reply #134 on: January 07, 2011, 02:36:33 PM »

Hopefully he will abandon the Episcopalians, and join The Holy Orthodox church as married Clergy....There By the Grace Of....It would be a rare Find to get a healthy ,heterosexual  married Catholic priest from the latin Church ,if they don't want him ,some part of Holy Orthodoxy will make room for him and the Misses..... Grin

Uh-oh.  Wink

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« Reply #135 on: January 08, 2011, 05:35:01 AM »

"Paphnutius, so certain ancient authors tell us, earnestly entreated his fellow-bishops not to impose this obligation on the orders of the clergy concerned. He proposed, in accordance "with the ancient tradition of the Church", that only those who were celibates at the time of ordination should continue to observe continence, but, on the other hand, that "none should be separated from her, to whom, while yet unordained, he had been united". The great veneration in which he was held, and the well known fact that he had himself observed the strictest chastity all his life, gave weight to his proposal, which was unanimously adopted. The [Nicene] council left it to the discretion of the married clergy to continue or discontinue their marital relations. In addition, Paphnutius was a zealous defender of Orthodoxy in the face of the Arian heresy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paphnutius_of_Thebes
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« Reply #136 on: January 08, 2011, 11:13:12 AM »

Don't forget the accent on the "e"

 Cutié

People in the Hispanic community that he served pretty much knew he was looking into the Episcopal Church. He even alluded to it during an interview. The lady he is courting is Latin American of Greek descent. Nothing novel.


Interesting, and telling, then that he went Episcopalian and not Orthodox.

Maybe the fact that he would not be able to be a priest since his girlfriend is divorced helped him make the decision (in EO, it has to be one marriage for both the husband and wife).  Also, if he was involved in an affair, that would cause a major problem too. 
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