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Author Topic: Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church  (Read 9916 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 28, 2009, 05:04:31 PM »

Quote
(CNN)  -- Father Alberto Cutie, an internationally known Catholic priest who admitted having a romantic affair and breaking his vow of celibacy, is joining the Episcopal Church to be with the woman he loves, he said Thursday.

"Cutie" rhymes with the Latin quotidie.
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2009, 05:06:41 PM »

Good that he didn't want to start today by going into a new family in our Church.
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2009, 05:24:42 PM »

Wonder if this will affect relations between the Catholic and the Episcopal Churches. 

Interesting that this should happen after the Episcopal Church ousts 61 clergy.
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2009, 05:43:02 PM »

Don't forget the accent on the "e"

 Cutié

People in the Hispanic community that he served pretty much knew he was looking into the Episcopal Church. He even alluded to it during an interview. The lady he is courting is Latin American of Greek descent. Nothing novel.
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2009, 07:30:27 PM »

Wonder if this will affect relations between the Catholic and the Episcopal Churches. 

How would it?  A number of Episcopalian priests have gone to the RCC and many were reordained and are now priests there.   Undecided  There have been RCs who have come to the Anglicans in the past as well. 

Quote
Interesting that this should happen after the Episcopal Church ousts 61 clergy.

How so?  I doubt that there is any connection between the two instances and the case of the Diocese of San Joaquin is complicated. It is about a split where some parishes and the bishop leaving the Episcopal Church while other parishes remained.   

Ebor
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2009, 11:13:36 PM »

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.
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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2009, 12:07:03 AM »



I think he needs prayers more than criticism. What he did came out into the light and now he has to deal with it. In one of his last interviews, I sensed inner turmoil. Indeed, this man did seem afflicted. He was/is really loved by many people in the Hispanic community. I hope and pray that he once again, finds that inner peace that he so desperately needs.
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2009, 03:07:12 AM »

STATEMENT
from John C. Favalora, Archbishop of Miami, about Father Alberto Cutié's separation from the Roman Catholic Church.

Miami • May 28, 2009

I am genuinely disappointed by the announcement made earlier this afternoon by Father Alberto Cutié that he is joining the Episcopal Church.

According to our canon law, with this very act Father Cutié is separating himself from the communion of the Roman Catholic Church (c. 1364, §1) by professing erroneous faith and morals, and refusing submission to the Holy Father (canon 751).  He also is irregular for the exercise of sacred orders as a priest (canons 1041 and 1044, §1) and no longer has the faculties of the Archdiocese of Miami to celebrate the sacraments; nor may he preach or teach on Catholic faith and morals (cannon 1336, §1).  His actions could lead to his dismissal from the clerical state.

This means that Father Cutié is removing himself from full communion with the Catholic Church and thereby forfeiting his rights as a cleric.  Roman Catholics should not request the sacraments from Father Cuité.  Any sacramental actions he attempts to perform would be illicit.  Any Mass he says would be valid but illicit, meaning it does not meet a Catholic’s obligation.  Father Cutié cannot validly officiate at marriages of Roman Catholics in the Archdiocese of Miami or anywhere.

Father Cutié is still bound by his promise to live a celibate life, which he freely embraced at ordination.  Only the Holy Father can release him from that obligation.

To the Catholic faithful of Saint Francis de Sales Parish, Radio Paz and the entire Archdiocese of Miami, I again say that Father Cutié’s actions cannot be justified, despite his good works as a priest (statement of May 5, 2009).  This is all the more true in light of today’s announcement.  Father Cutié may have abandoned the Catholic Church; he may have abandoned you.   But I tell you that the Catholic Church will never abandon you; the Archdiocese of Miami is here for you.

Father Cutié’s actions have caused grave scandal within the Catholic Church, harmed the Archdiocese of Miami − especially our priests – and led to division within the ecumenical community and the community at large.  Today’s announcement only deepens those wounds.

When Father Cutié met with me on May 5th, he requested and I granted a leave of absence from the exercise of the priesthood.  Because of this, he could no longer be the administrator of St Francis de Sales Parish or the General Director of Radio Paz.  For the good of the Church and to avoid the media frenzy, I chose not to impose publicly an ecclesiastical penalty, although his admitted actions clearly warranted it.  Since that meeting, I have not heard from Father Cutié nor has he requested to meet with me.  He has never told me that he was considering joining the Episcopal Church.

I must also express my sincere disappointment with how Bishop Leo Frade of the Episcopal Diocese of Southeast Florida has handled this situation.  Bishop Frade has never spoken to me about his position on this delicate matter or what actions he was contemplating.  I have only heard from him through the local media.  This truly is a serious setback for ecumenical relations and cooperation between us.  The Archdiocese of Miami has never made a public display when for doctrinal reasons Episcopal priests have joined the Catholic Church and sought ordination.  In fact, to do so would violate the principles of the Catholic Church governing ecumenical relations.  I regret that Bishop Frade has not afforded me or the Catholic community the same courtesy and respect.

In my nearly 50 years as a priest, I have often preached on Jesus’ parable of the Prodigal Son – which really should be called the parable of the Forgiving Father (Luke 15, 11-32).  Perhaps the story told by the Lord so long ago is applicable to our discussions this afternoon.

A father had two sons.  One of them took his inheritance early and left home, spending his money wantonly.  The father waited patiently for the return of his prodigal son, who after he had seen the error of his ways, repented and returned home.  Upon his return, the father lovingly embraced him and called him his son.   I pray that Father Cutié will “come to his senses” (Luke 15, 17) and return home.  The Catholic Church seeks the conversion and salvation of sinners, not their condemnation.  The same is my attitude toward Father Cutié.

We must not forget, however, that there were two sons in the Lord’s story.  The other son, who never left home, was angry that his erring brother was welcomed home by the father.  To all faithful Catholics, I say what the father said to this second son:  “You are with me always and everything I have is yours.  But we had to celebrate and rejoice.  This brother of yours was dead and has come back to life.  He was lost, and is found” (Luke 15, 31-32).

In this beautiful parable Jesus teaches us that God is a loving and forgiving Father.  Each of us has experienced that love, each of us needs that forgiveness; for we are all sinners.  If our brother comes home, let us celebrate with the Father.

In conclusion, I commend and salute the priests of the Archdiocese of Miami and all priests who faithfully live and fulfill their promise of celibacy.  By their fidelity to their promise they reflect more clearly to the world the Christ whose total gift of himself to the Father was pure and chaste love for his brothers and sisters.  In our times so pre-occupied with sex, the gift of celibacy is all the more a sign of the Kingdom of Heaven where, as scripture says, there will be “no marrying or giving in marriage” (Matthew 22, 30).  I encourage all Catholics to pray for and support our dedicated priests.

Most Reverend John C. Favalora
Archbishop of Miami

http://www.miamiarchdiocese.org/ip.asp?op=H1000090528ACE
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2009, 03:49:45 AM »

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2009, 04:09:00 AM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Lord have Mercy!
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2009, 04:34:12 AM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Lord have Mercy!
It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.

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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2009, 09:05:59 AM »

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.

"that lot" being the Episcopal  Church?   Undecided  We do have standards but that does make the news stories much. 

Sigh.
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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2009, 09:10:21 AM »

Wonder if this will affect relations between the Catholic and the Episcopal Churches. 

How would it?  A number of Episcopalian priests have gone to the RCC and many were reordained and are now priests there.   Undecided  There have been RCs who have come to the Anglicans in the past as well. 

Quote
Interesting that this should happen after the Episcopal Church ousts 61 clergy.

How so?  I doubt that there is any connection between the two instances and the case of the Diocese of San Joaquin is complicated. It is about a split where some parishes and the bishop leaving the Episcopal Church while other parishes remained.   

Ebor

Well, I just saw the connection with those ousted, as they where trying to remain "orthodox" in their practice, and here on the other coast they accept a priest who has broken his vows.  I personally would have problem accepting a priest like that, since he, in my opinion, isn't trustworthy.

Yea, the Catholics have received Anglicans into the Church and for that matter so have we as Orthodox.  It just reopens a sore with me.  I was visiting a Ukrainian Catholic priest when Boston was making its first female bishop, Barbara Harris.  At the end of the ceremony, the Episcopal priest, who was doing the commentary, spoke to us watching on TV.  He said that all Catholics and Orthodox, who felt it was right to make female clergy should come to them.  "We have done it and you have a home with us."  Now if the statement by the archbishop doesn't raise a few eyebrows in the Episcopal Church nothing will.  Personally, I just can't understand either the Orthodox or Catholics having any dialogue with the Episcopal Church, as they have removed themselves so much from the tradition of the Church.  When a church starts caterring to the whims of its people and ignoring the message of the Gospel and the living Tradition of the Church, there's no room for dialogue.
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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2009, 09:23:52 AM »

Well, I just saw the connection with those ousted[.]

They weren't ousted; they quit, along with their bishop, in a move that should be familiar to the Orthodox.
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2009, 09:49:49 AM »

Don't forget the accent on the "e"

 Cutié

People in the Hispanic community that he served pretty much knew he was looking into the Episcopal Church. He even alluded to it during an interview. The lady he is courting is Latin American of Greek descent. Nothing novel.


Interesting, and telling, then that he went Episcopalian and not Orthodox.
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« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2009, 10:01:13 AM »

Just saw this:  http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/05/cutie.html?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed4

Some of the comments below the article are rather telling from an Episcopal point of view:

"At Episcopal Cafe, Jim Naughton has some misgivings:

"Anybody else have mixed feelings about this? One can oppose mandatory priestly celibacy and still feel uneasy about the Rev. Cutié jumping so quickly and publicly to new ministry in a new church after being caught in the act of breaking his ordination vows. No?"

And Rod Dreher, at Beliefnet, also is uneasy:

"That his new bishop received him without the catechumen period, and not only that but has scheduled him to preach at the cathedral on Sunday, reflects poorly not only on Cutié, but on the Episcopal bishop. Showboaters."
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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2009, 10:42:49 AM »

"Cutie"[/url] rhymes with the Latin quotidie.

Yes. Disappointing, that.

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« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2009, 02:04:16 PM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?
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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2009, 02:15:00 PM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?

I think it was meant for the present day priest, tho both left for the same reason, sort of.
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« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2009, 02:19:55 PM »



Interesting, and telling, then that he went Episcopalian and not Orthodox.

Not surprising. Episcopalians allow priests to get married after their ordinations.
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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2009, 02:22:21 PM »

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?
Quote
I think it was meant for the present day priest, tho both left for the same reason, sort of.

Indeed. They both wanted to betray vows they made before God, and both became Anglicans to do it.
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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2009, 03:12:11 PM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?
I don't think Padre Cutié is comparable to him, he hasn't executed any of his many wives Roll Eyes
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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2009, 03:40:51 PM »

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?
Quote
I think it was meant for the present day priest, tho both left for the same reason, sort of.

Indeed. They both wanted to betray vows they made before God, and both became Anglicans to do it.

Yeah, shame Henry couldn't just get an annullment like everyone else because Catherine's nephew was beseiging Rome.  Could of saved us a lot of trouble.
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2009, 04:08:56 PM »

Yeah, shame Henry couldn't just get an annullment like everyone else because Catherine's nephew was beseiging Rome.  Could of saved us a lot of trouble.

Counterfactual argument.

You cannot be sure that Henry would have gotten his wish, and you can't be sure that he would not have schismed if he did. After all, Ann Boleyn was only #2 of 6.
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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2009, 04:23:09 PM »

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.
AMEN.



I think he needs prayers more than criticism. What he did came out into the light and now he has to deal with it. In one of his last interviews, I sensed inner turmoil. Indeed, this man did seem afflicted. He was/is really loved by many people in the Hispanic community. I hope and pray that he once again, finds that inner peace that he so desperately needs.

On the one hand, if he had the option to marry before ordination he would have taken it and all would be fine.  If he had taken a leave to sort through things, and then decided to go Episcopal, that would be better.  But he snuck around until he was caught.  What is left is a mess like happened with Bp. Aftimos Ofiesh.  That took decades to clear up.  In some ways, it still isn't.

STATEMENT
from John C. Favalora, Archbishop of Miami, about Father Alberto Cutié's separation from the Roman Catholic Church.

Miami • May 28, 2009

Father Cutié’s actions have caused grave scandal within the Catholic Church, harmed the Archdiocese of Miami − especially our priests – and led to division within the ecumenical community and the community at large.  Today’s announcement only deepens those wounds.

When Father Cutié met with me on May 5th, he requested and I granted a leave of absence from the exercise of the priesthood.  Because of this, he could no longer be the administrator of St Francis de Sales Parish or the General Director of Radio Paz.  For the good of the Church and to avoid the media frenzy, I chose not to impose publicly an ecclesiastical penalty, although his admitted actions clearly warranted it.  Since that meeting, I have not heard from Father Cutié nor has he requested to meet with me.  He has never told me that he was considering joining the Episcopal Church.

Since this situation is dissimilar to the abuse scandal (and the scandal among the Antiochians about another bishop in Florida), the actions the bishop took were totally appropriate and Christian.

Quote
I must also express my sincere disappointment with how Bishop Leo Frade of the Episcopal Diocese of Southeast Florida has handled this situation.  Bishop Frade has never spoken to me about his position on this delicate matter or what actions he was contemplating.  I have only heard from him through the local media.  This truly is a serious setback for ecumenical relations and cooperation between us.  The Archdiocese of Miami has never made a public display when for doctrinal reasons Episcopal priests have joined the Catholic Church and sought ordination.  In fact, to do so would violate the principles of the Catholic Church governing ecumenical relations.  I regret that Bishop Frade has not afforded me or the Catholic community the same courtesy and respect.

That is what wishy-washy "dialogue" gets you.

Quote
In conclusion, I commend and salute the priests of the Archdiocese of Miami and all priests who faithfully live and fulfill their promise of celibacy.  By their fidelity to their promise they reflect more clearly to the world the Christ whose total gift of himself to the Father was pure and chaste love for his brothers and sisters.  In our times so pre-occupied with sex, the gift of celibacy is all the more a sign of the Kingdom of Heaven where, as scripture says, there will be “no marrying or giving in marriage” (Matthew 22, 30).  I encourage all Catholics to pray for and support our dedicated priests.

How about our dedicated MARRIED PRIESTS (and yes, the Vatican has them too)?
This was unnecessary.  If mandated celibacy, which is NEITHER Apostolic nor Catholic, was not in place, perhaps this could have been avoided.

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Lord have Mercy!
It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.

Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
Quote
When she assumed this position in 1989, she broke a 2,000-year-old tradition stretching back to the time of Christ.
http://www.visionaryproject.com/harrisbarbara/
Quote
The Rev. Barbara Harris, 58, a divorced black and soundly left-wing cleric with no earned undergraduate or seminary degree and little parish experience, was consecrated a bishop in The Episcopal Church...As an African-American bishop, Harris has spent most of her career whipping up hatred against orthodox Episcopalians for their faithfulness to Scripture and tradition and engendering guilt amongst whites for not being black enough...If she had announced she was a lesbian, it might have killed her consecration. The church had to wait till the time was ripe for a Gene Robinson to emerge on the Episcopal stage of pansexuality. Today it would be a different story for Ms. Harris...Among her achievements are being a signatory to the infamous Koinonia Statement by Bishop John Shelby Spong in support of the ordination of lesbigays and blessing their relationships...Her most memorable thought, and one that she will be remembered for, is one she delivered at the 1998 Lambeth Conference where she was so miserable about the presence of so many orthodox bishops. She said, "If a**holes had wings, this place would be an airport." It was also at Lambeth that she announced that the African bishops had been bought off with "chicken dinners." Had anyone else used such a racial stereotype, Ms. Harris would have howled with outrage. But Black on Black stereotyping is apparently acceptable...She also ripped the Pastoral Council announced by the Primates and Archbishop of Canterbury in Alexandria, Egypt, recently as "an added layer of ecclesiastical bureaucracy that we do not need.""We need to simply trust each other that we are acting in the best interests of our respective provinces. Interventions and crossing provincial boundaries need to stop. That is not a solution to controversies within a province. I think that schism is real, because we have competing claims of orthodoxy and other claims that are cause for hostility and division. A covenant or a Windsor Report [is] not going to quell controversy."
Honesty for a change.
Quote
In 2001, clearly fed up with the dwindling orthodox bishops in TEC, Harris stood up in the House of Bishops just before she retired as suffragan bishop of Massachusetts and said traditionalists should just leave The Episcopal Church. Well, they have and many are fighting for their properties.

When the infamous Canon (A045) on the ordination of women erupted at General Convention, then PB Frank Griswold said it should be implemented with "courtesy, tolerance, mutual respect and prayer for one another." Not Harris. She, along with NY Bishop Catherine Roskam railed against the dwindling Anglo-Catholic bishops and said their refusal to ordain women was "injustice towards women". Newark deputy Michael Rehill joined in the chorus and said, "The will of General Convention must be enforced." It was. Now all three bishops have left TEC taking their dioceses with them.
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10048

(Btw, I am less than thrilled that the Episcopalians came to Egypt to paper over their problems).

Back to the OP: just like Bp. Oftiesh's "situation" gave us an increased vagranti problem, non-canonical groups (he is one of the "legitimate" lines of the uncanonical Ukrainian bishops), division of the Church in America, easing the way for the American Church to be dismissed, etc. Bp.  Roll Eyes Barbara Harrison's "ordination" provided a similar service.  This latest situation in Miami will do the same.  Btw, TAC has a similar problem with its much heralded union with the Vatican, because of similar situation's with their primate.

Case in point:

Wonder if this will affect relations between the Catholic and the Episcopal Churches. 

How would it?  A number of Episcopalian priests have gone to the RCC and many were reordained and are now priests there.   Undecided  There have been RCs who have come to the Anglicans in the past as well. 

Quote
Interesting that this should happen after the Episcopal Church ousts 61 clergy.

How so?  I doubt that there is any connection between the two instances and the case of the Diocese of San Joaquin is complicated. It is about a split where some parishes and the bishop leaving the Episcopal Church while other parishes remained.   

Ebor

Well, I just saw the connection with those ousted, as they where trying to remain "orthodox" in their practice, and here on the other coast they accept a priest who has broken his vows.  I personally would have problem accepting a priest like that, since he, in my opinion, isn't trustworthy.

Yea, the Catholics have received Anglicans into the Church and for that matter so have we as Orthodox.  It just reopens a sore with me.  I was visiting a Ukrainian Catholic priest when Boston was making its first female bishop, Barbara Harris.  At the end of the ceremony, the Episcopal priest, who was doing the commentary, spoke to us watching on TV.  He said that all Catholics and Orthodox, who felt it was right to make female clergy should come to them.  "We have done it and you have a home with us."  Now if the statement by the archbishop doesn't raise a few eyebrows in the Episcopal Church nothing will.  Personally, I just can't understand either the Orthodox or Catholics having any dialogue with the Episcopal Church, as they have removed themselves so much from the tradition of the Church.  When a church starts caterring to the whims of its people and ignoring the message of the Gospel and the living Tradition of the Church, there's no room for dialogue.

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.

"that lot" being the Episcopal  Church?   Undecided  We do have standards but that does make the news stories much. 

Sigh.

What standards would that be? Bp. Spong's?

Schism in not always a bad thing: like cutting off an an arm when it is gangerous.  Otherwise it spreads to the rest of the body....

Well, I just saw the connection with those ousted[.]

They weren't ousted; they quit, along with their bishop, in a move that should be familiar to the Orthodox.


Yes, and we deal with it, for example:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21467.0.html

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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2009, 06:37:53 PM »

Yeah, shame Henry couldn't just get an annullment like everyone else because Catherine's nephew was beseiging Rome.  Could of saved us a lot of trouble.

Counterfactual argument.

You cannot be sure that Henry would have gotten his wish, and you can't be sure that he would not have schismed if he did. After all, Ann Boleyn was only #2 of 6.

Who is it at the Corban tribunal that said "with a little effort, we can annull any marriage?"  He would have gotten one, just like his aunt.  And for Ann, she was the only one married when the previous marriage was in question.
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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2009, 07:29:16 PM »

An annulment would have never changed anything. He was bent on doing his own thing. What did he do with Boleyn?, had her executed on false charges of adultery even after he had his way.
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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2009, 10:02:08 PM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?

I think it was meant for the present day priest, tho both left for the same reason, sort of.

Sigh.  There is a thread here on the forum in which some of the history and information about Henry Tudor was given.  In his case it was a matter of politics and succession.  He did not try to get an annulment, which was different from a divorce, because he wanted a new woman for fun.  He needed a male heir to secure the throne since he was only the second Tudor after the Wars of the Roses.   He knew that he could sire boys as he had a living son, Henry Fitzroy, whom he made the 1st Duke of Richmond and Somerset.  But note the "Fitz".  He was illegitimate and could not just inherit the throne without some special law.  Therefore, the fact that Catherine of Aragon only had a surviving daughter was a problem for the succession.  Before anyone makes remarks about the king having mistresses, he wasn't the only one and I can give information on some of those if needed.

Furthermore, both annulments and divorces proper were granted to royalty and nobility.  Just for an obvious example is the case King Louis VII of France and Eleanor of Acquitaine whose marriage was annulled because she did not give him a male heir to the throne. She went on to marry Henry I of England and bore him several sons, including Richard I and John of Magna Carta fame.

For me, I think that the very public story of joining ECUSA is erm. less then optimal. 

Ebor
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« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2009, 10:15:28 PM »

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.

"that lot" being the Episcopal  Church?   Undecided  We do have standards but that does make the news stories much. 

Sigh.

What standards would that be? Bp. Spong's?

Undecided  He is retired, his views have never been universally accepted in the Episcopal Church and, indeed, there were many objections and replies to his statements and books.  He got lots of press, because that's the kind of story that makes news.  Invoking the name of Spong does not describe the Episcopal Church as it really is in many places, let alone much of the Anglican Communion or multitudes of individuals who are Anglican.  It is a cheap shot.  Undecided

At this time there is a major showing of standards being exercised regarding the consent process for the proposed bishop of Northern Michigan. There are many bishops and standing committees who have voted no.

Ebor

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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2009, 10:22:01 PM »

An annulment would have never changed anything. He was bent on doing his own thing. What did he do with Boleyn?, had her executed on false charges of adultery even after he had his way.

May one ask how you know this?  Henry Tudor was bent on securing the line of succession for the English throne for which the times and culture preferred a male heir.  That it would be his daughter Elizabeth I who reigned long and with great renown could be considered ironic.

As an interesting side note, this is the 500th anniversary of Henry VIII's ascending the English Throne.

Ebor
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2009, 10:26:38 PM »

He'll fit right in with that lot where there are no standards.  Do what you want if it feels good.  The RCs are better off without him.

"that lot" being the Episcopal  Church?   Undecided  We do have standards but that does make the news stories much. 

Sigh.

What standards would that be? Bp. Spong's?

Undecided  He is retired, his views have never been universally accepted in the Episcopal Church and, indeed, there were many objections and replies to his statements and books.  He got lots of press, because that's the kind of story that makes news.  Invoking the name of Spong does not describe the Episcopal Church as it really is in many places, let alone much of the Anglican Communion or multitudes of individuals who are Anglican.  It is a cheap shot.  Undecided

As long as there is ANY place for Bp. Spong, retired or otherwise, in the Anglican "communion," no, it is not cheap shot.

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At this time there is a major showing of standards being exercised regarding the consent process for the proposed bishop of Northern Michigan. There are many bishops and standing committees who have voted no.

We'll see where it goes.
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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2009, 10:52:49 PM »

The man is retired and no longer a sitting bishop.  I don't even know where he is or what he is doing or if he is indeed attending any kind of church let alone an Anglican one. I'm not about to hunt him down and throw stones at him either. 

To toss off his name to make a jab at the Anglicans is a cheap shot and does not help in convincing others.   Sad

Re: the Northern Michigan election, are you actually following it?  There are places that are keeping an account of the publicly stated votes by both bishops and standing committees.  And if he is not consented to, will there be some charity addressed to Anglicans?
 Sad
 
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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2009, 11:10:51 PM »

The man is retired and no longer a sitting bishop.  I don't even know where he is or what he is doing or if he is indeed attending any kind of church let alone an Anglican one. I'm not about to hunt him down and throw stones at him either. 

To toss off his name to make a jab at the Anglicans is a cheap shot and does not help in convincing others.   Sad

Re: the Northern Michigan election, are you actually following it?  There are places that are keeping an account of the publicly stated votes by both bishops and standing committees.  And if he is not consented to, will there be some charity addressed to Anglicans?
 Sad
 

If they stop communing with Bp. Spong.
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« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2009, 01:30:03 AM »

An annulment would have never changed anything. He was bent on doing his own thing. What did he do with Boleyn?, had her executed on false charges of adultery even after he had his way.

May one ask how you know this? 
On 2 May 1536 Anne was arrested and taken to the Tower of London. She was accused of adultery, incest and high treason.[31] Although the evidence against them was unconvincing, the accused were found guilty and condemned to death by the peers. George Boleyn and the other accused men were executed on 17 May 1536. At 8 a.m. on 19 May 1536, the queen was executed on Tower Green. She knelt upright, in the French style of executions. The execution was swift and consisted of a single stroke.[32]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_the_eighth
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« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2009, 02:11:26 AM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?

I'm sorry for being unclear. I was referring to Fr. Cutie.
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« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2009, 02:41:10 AM »

Was his affair with the woman the ONLY reason why he left the Roman Catholic Church?

Who are you talking about? Fr. Cutie or King Henry VIII?

I'm sorry for being unclear. I was referring to Fr. Cutie.
I think lubeltri was being facetious Roll Eyes
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« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2009, 04:31:09 PM »

I assure you, ChristusDominus, that I know the historical facts that you posted and they are not germane.  I am questioning how you know that the Church of England would have still split with Rome if Henry VIII had been given his annulment as many other kings and nobles had been given in the past.  In this case it was Henry who was being religiously scrupulous.  Because Catherine of Aragon was his older brother Arthur's widow, there had to be a special permission given by the Bishop of Rome for her to marry Henry as this is against scripture in the OT. When there were no living sons to the marriage this was a crisis in politics and Henry believed that God was punishing him for breaking the commandment on marriage.

Ebor 
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« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2009, 04:54:42 PM »

The man is retired and no longer a sitting bishop.  I don't even know where he is or what he is doing or if he is indeed attending any kind of church let alone an Anglican one. I'm not about to hunt him down and throw stones at him either. 

To toss off his name to make a jab at the Anglicans is a cheap shot and does not help in convincing others.   Sad

Re: the Northern Michigan election, are you actually following it?  There are places that are keeping an account of the publicly stated votes by both bishops and standing committees.  And if he is not consented to, will there be some charity addressed to Anglicans?
 Sad
 

If they stop communing with Bp. Spong.

Are you tracking whether he goes to communion?  I have no idea where he is now or if he attends a parish at all.  And supposed he is not taking communion, would you have a further requirement before you would exhibit some charity or empathy?
 Undecided

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« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2009, 07:29:06 PM »

The man is retired and no longer a sitting bishop.  I don't even know where he is or what he is doing or if he is indeed attending any kind of church let alone an Anglican one. I'm not about to hunt him down and throw stones at him either. 

To toss off his name to make a jab at the Anglicans is a cheap shot and does not help in convincing others.   Sad

Re: the Northern Michigan election, are you actually following it?  There are places that are keeping an account of the publicly stated votes by both bishops and standing committees.  And if he is not consented to, will there be some charity addressed to Anglicans?
 Sad
 

If they stop communing with Bp. Spong.

Are you tracking whether he goes to communion?  I have no idea where he is now or if he attends a parish at all.  And supposed he is not taking communion, would you have a further requirement before you would exhibit some charity or empathy?
 Undecided



You are whom you commune with: has he been deposed, or did he retire in good graces?  I've seen him speak for the Episcopal church, and besides complaints from traditionalists, no attack on his credentials to do so.
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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2009, 07:53:01 PM »

He speaks for himself, not the Church

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« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2009, 08:18:47 PM »

I assure you, ChristusDominus, that I know the historical facts that you posted and they are not germane.  I am questioning how you know that the Church of England would have still split with Rome if Henry VIII had been given his annulment as many other kings and nobles had been given in the past. 
I don't, but more than likey he would have, seeing how the following events transpired. I want to say it's an educated guess, but I can't; this dunce cap on my head won't permit it!
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« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2009, 12:05:09 PM »

I assure you, ChristusDominus, that I know the historical facts that you posted and they are not germane.  I am questioning how you know that the Church of England would have still split with Rome if Henry VIII had been given his annulment as many other kings and nobles had been given in the past. 
I don't, but more than likey he would have, seeing how the following events transpired. I want to say it's an educated guess, but I can't; this dunce cap on my head won't permit it!

I did not mean to imply that you were a dunce or anything like that.  I apologize for anything that I wrote that gave that impression. 

The thing is, one may speculate on how history would have been different, that's not the same as stating that something *would* have happened anyway.  If Henry had been given the annulment earlier, maybe Anne would have borne a boy that lived.  Then there could have been a whole different history without leaving Rome, without the Elizabethan age, with any number of differences that I can imagine.  It's a possibility. But that's not how things happened. 

Henry's concern was the succession, not sex or family life or companionship.  So introducing him into this thread looked more like taking a crack or cheap shot at my Church.  He and Fr. Cutie are two very different people in very different situations.

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2009, 03:00:44 PM »


Henry's concern was the succession, not sex or family life or companionship.  him So introducing into this thread looked more like taking a crack or cheap shot at my Church.  He and Fr. Cutie are two very different people in very different situations.

With respect,

Ebor
I was being facetious, my friend. I also never meant to take cheap shots at your church. I like the Anglican High Mass, very solemn. It's something the Western Rite might like to mirror
(just my opinion).

 I believe in mutual respect. It was never my intention to denigrate your faith nor your church. Someone just mentioned Henry the VIII in jest and I ran with it. Mea culpa
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« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2009, 03:15:51 PM »



Maybe, but she never did borne him a male heir. I know what you are saying: Had he not wasted time bickering with Rome for an annulment, the precious time lost might have been used to procreate with Anne.

How much time did he lose requesting the annulment?
 
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« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2009, 08:33:30 PM »

I was being facetious, my friend. I also never meant to take cheap shots at your church. I like the Anglican High Mass, very solemn. It's something the Western Rite might like to mirror
(just my opinion).

 I believe in mutual respect. It was never my intention to denigrate your faith nor your church. Someone just mentioned Henry the VIII in jest and I ran with it. Mea culpa

Thank you for your charity and courtesy.  It is sometimes hard to tell in posts when a person might be joking.  Sometimes, it's not, of course, when a post's language is much more ummm vehement.   Smiley
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