Author Topic: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?  (Read 6263 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« on: May 26, 2009, 03:35:15 PM »
No offense but...do you consider these tasks to be the extent of a woman's worth or work in the world?

That's a traditional Christian position:

"I don't see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation. If woman is not given to man for help in bearing children, for what help could she be? To till the earth together? If help were needed for that, man would have been a better help for man. The same goes for comfort in solitude. How much more pleasure is it for life and conversation when two friends live together than when a man and a woman cohabitate?" (St. Augustine)

He is Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church, not a saint.
Sorry, but I think you need to do a little bit more research before you make this statement again. ;)  Blessed Augustine IS a saint in the Orthodox Church, though we don't base much of our theological tradition on his teachings.
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Offline si2008

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2009, 03:59:47 PM »
According to most things I've read, and what my priest has said, and the following link, his status as a saint is debatable, as are many of his theological opinions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2009, 04:05:58 PM »
^^You are correct, dear sister.  Augustine's status is highly debatable in Holy Orthodoxy.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2009, 04:16:11 PM »
According to most things I've read, and what my priest has said, and the following link, his status as a saint is debatable, as are many of his theological opinions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo
But saying that his status is debatable, which I don't deny, is different from saying that he is not a saint in the Orthodox Church, which was your original assertion.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 04:16:56 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2009, 04:18:25 PM »
According to most things I've read, and what my priest has said, and the following link, his status as a saint is debatable, as are many of his theological opinions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo
But saying that his status is debatable, which I don't deny, is different from saying that he is not a saint, which was your original assertion.
But your original assertion was that he IS a saint.  Now you've flip-flopped...

Quote
Blessed Augustine IS a saint in the Orthodox Church,...
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 04:19:43 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2009, 04:28:41 PM »
According to most things I've read, and what my priest has said, and the following link, his status as a saint is debatable, as are many of his theological opinions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo
But saying that his status is debatable, which I don't deny, is different from saying that he is not a saint, which was your original assertion.
But your original assertion was that he IS a saint.  Now you've flip-flopped...
No, I haven't.  It's not flip-flopping to say in the same breath that he is regarded as a saint in the Orthodox Church and that some find his status debatable.  Maybe rather than confuse you, I should have been more clear and said that some find the status of St. Augustine in the Church debatable.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2009, 04:35:06 PM »
According to most things I've read, and what my priest has said, and the following link, his status as a saint is debatable, as are many of his theological opinions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo
I would counter this, though, by citing from the same OrthodoxWiki article that Augustine is hailed as a saint and Father by no less than the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils and that this glorification has yet to be overturned by another council of general authority.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 04:41:39 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2009, 04:41:28 PM »
According to most things I've read, and what my priest has said, and the following link, his status as a saint is debatable, as are many of his theological opinions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo
But saying that his status is debatable, which I don't deny, is different from saying that he is not a saint, which was your original assertion.
But your original assertion was that he IS a saint.  Now you've flip-flopped...
No, I haven't.  It's not flip-flopping to say in the same breath that he is regarded as a saint in the Orthodox Church and that some find his status debatable.  Maybe rather than confuse you, I should have been more clear and said that some find the status of St. Augustine in the Church debatable.
:D LOL!  You haven't confused me, amigo.  You might be trying to but you're not.  You see, you didn't say those things in the same breath; first you said that he is a saint- you even typed it into all caps to get your point across.  Next, you backtracked and said that you don't deny that his status as a saint is debatable.  Can't have it both ways... 
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2009, 04:44:09 PM »
According to most things I've read, and what my priest has said, and the following link, his status as a saint is debatable, as are many of his theological opinions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo
But saying that his status is debatable, which I don't deny, is different from saying that he is not a saint, which was your original assertion.
But your original assertion was that he IS a saint.  Now you've flip-flopped...
No, I haven't.  It's not flip-flopping to say in the same breath that he is regarded as a saint in the Orthodox Church and that some find his status debatable.  Maybe rather than confuse you, I should have been more clear and said that some find the status of St. Augustine in the Church debatable.
:D LOL!  You haven't confused me, amigo.  You might be trying to but you're not.  You see, you didn't say those things in the same breath; first you said that he is a saint- you even typed it into all caps to get your point across.  Next, you backtracked and said that you don't deny that his status as a saint is debatable.  Can't have it both ways... 
Usually when a person has offered a statement to clarify what he said earlier, the polite thing to do is grant the truth of his clarifying statement and not reply with some statement of "I know you don't mean that." ;)
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Offline Veniamin

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2009, 04:47:47 PM »
According to most things I've read, and what my priest has said, and the following link, his status as a saint is debatable, as are many of his theological opinions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo
But saying that his status is debatable, which I don't deny, is different from saying that he is not a saint, which was your original assertion.
But your original assertion was that he IS a saint.  Now you've flip-flopped...
No, I haven't.  It's not flip-flopping to say in the same breath that he is regarded as a saint in the Orthodox Church and that some find his status debatable.  Maybe rather than confuse you, I should have been more clear and said that some find the status of St. Augustine in the Church debatable.
:D LOL!  You haven't confused me, amigo.  You might be trying to but you're not.  You see, you didn't say those things in the same breath; first you said that he is a saint- you even typed it into all caps to get your point across.  Next, you backtracked and said that you don't deny that his status as a saint is debatable.  Can't have it both ways... 

He didn't necessarily backtrack, as his clarifying statement was somewhat ambiguous.  It could be read to mean either that St. Augustine's status as a saint with reference to whether or not he is a saint is debatable (as you apparently assumed) or that St. Augustine's status as a saint with reference to how authoritative his teachings are considered relative to other saints (as PtA indicates he meant).

Therefore, the moral of this story is:  Never try to beat a lawyer at parsing verbiage. :P
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Offline si2008

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Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2009, 04:55:59 PM »
I find it frustrating that I qualified Augustine's statement in other ways, but instead of actually addressing the meat of what I said, I was told to just do more research.  I wasn't right on topic, but it seems like interesting exchanges are cut short here so often with personal jibes and nitpicking.  I didn't claim to know everything about Augustine, I was continuing the discussion.  If one of the requirements for being taken seriously here is that you have to have master's degrees in theology, logic, English, and Greek, which it sometimes seems is the case, then I will just quit while I'm behind.   :-[   

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2009, 05:05:25 PM »
I find it frustrating that I qualified Augustine's statement in other ways, but instead of actually addressing the meat of what I said, I was told to just do more research.  I wasn't right on topic, but it seems like interesting exchanges are cut short here so often with personal jibes and nitpicking.  I didn't claim to know everything about Augustine, I was continuing the discussion.  If one of the requirements for being taken seriously here is that you have to have master's degrees in theology, logic, English, and Greek, which it sometimes seems is the case, then I will just quit while I'm behind.   :-[   



Actually, your statement of "Augustine...is not a saint" is pretty definitive and conclusive.  Anyone who has spent any time here reading threads knows that PeterTheAleut takes exception to any such statement w/o backup.

Please don't quit, but learn that some people here are rather nitpicky scholars by nature.  They can't help it.  Think of it as an exercise in patience. ;)
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Offline si2008

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2009, 05:08:22 PM »
Yes, but I didn't KNOW he is definitively considered a saint by the Orthodox Church since many things I've read, and heard from both priest and godmother, have informed me that he is NOT.

So forgive me, a sinner.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2009, 05:12:36 PM »
I find it frustrating that I qualified Augustine's statement in other ways, but instead of actually addressing the meat of what I said, I was told to just do more research.  I wasn't right on topic, but it seems like interesting exchanges are cut short here so often with personal jibes and nitpicking.
But when you make such assertions as "Blessed Augustine is not a saint in the Orthodox Church," even within the context of a much larger qualifying post, you should at least be prepared to defend your thesis against nitpickers such as I.

I didn't claim to know everything about Augustine, I was continuing the discussion.  If one of the requirements for being taken seriously here is that you have to have master's degrees in theology, logic, English, and Greek, which it sometimes seems is the case, then I will just quit while I'm behind.   :-[   
I'm sorry I gave any impression today that one needs to have an advanced degree to be taken seriously here, for that's clearly not the case. :-[  That said, however, if an assertion appears to show limited knowledge of its underlying subject, then it's certainly proper that the person making the assertion be asked to conduct a little research to learn more about the subject.  Does an encouragement to conduct a bit of research mean that you should actually go back to school for a few years to earn an advanced degree?  No, I don't think so. ;)  You need only do just enough research to be able to show that you know what you're talking about when you assert something as true.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2009, 05:13:30 PM »
According to most things I've read, and what my priest has said, and the following link, his status as a saint is debatable, as are many of his theological opinions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo
But saying that his status is debatable, which I don't deny, is different from saying that he is not a saint, which was your original assertion.
But your original assertion was that he IS a saint.  Now you've flip-flopped...
No, I haven't.  It's not flip-flopping to say in the same breath that he is regarded as a saint in the Orthodox Church and that some find his status debatable.  Maybe rather than confuse you, I should have been more clear and said that some find the status of St. Augustine in the Church debatable.
:D LOL!  You haven't confused me, amigo.  You might be trying to but you're not.  You see, you didn't say those things in the same breath; first you said that he is a saint- you even typed it into all caps to get your point across.  Next, you backtracked and said that you don't deny that his status as a saint is debatable.  Can't have it both ways... 
Usually when a person has offered a statement to clarify what he said earlier, the polite thing to do is grant the truth of his clarifying statement and not reply with some statement of "I know you don't mean that." ;)
Perhaps, but this is the OC.net and we all know politeness doesn't live or work here.  :-*  
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2009, 05:14:29 PM »
According to most things I've read, and what my priest has said, and the following link, his status as a saint is debatable, as are many of his theological opinions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Augustine_of_Hippo
But saying that his status is debatable, which I don't deny, is different from saying that he is not a saint, which was your original assertion.
But your original assertion was that he IS a saint.  Now you've flip-flopped...
No, I haven't.  It's not flip-flopping to say in the same breath that he is regarded as a saint in the Orthodox Church and that some find his status debatable.  Maybe rather than confuse you, I should have been more clear and said that some find the status of St. Augustine in the Church debatable.
:D LOL!  You haven't confused me, amigo.  You might be trying to but you're not.  You see, you didn't say those things in the same breath; first you said that he is a saint- you even typed it into all caps to get your point across.  Next, you backtracked and said that you don't deny that his status as a saint is debatable.  Can't have it both ways... 
Usually when a person has offered a statement to clarify what he said earlier, the polite thing to do is grant the truth of his clarifying statement and not reply with some statement of "I know you don't mean that." ;)
Perhaps, but this is the OC.net and we all know politeness doesn't live or work here.  :-*  
I can tell. :P
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2009, 05:14:51 PM »
Sorry, but I think you need to do a little bit more research before you make this statement again. ;)  Blessed Augustine IS a saint in the Orthodox Church, though we don't base much of our theological tradition on his teachings.

I am confused by this statement and need help.   Could you point out what in our theological tradition in based on Saint Augustine's teachings? 

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2009, 05:26:00 PM »


 Anyone who has spent any time here reading threads knows that PeterTheAleut takes exception to any such statement w/o backup.


Which is why I even bothered to get involved- It looks as if PtA is demanding si2008 play by standards he's exempt from.  He made a definitive statement and no one said boo about it.  My experience is that nitpickers are anything but with themselves.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2009, 05:32:53 PM »


 Anyone who has spent any time here reading threads knows that PeterTheAleut takes exception to any such statement w/o backup.


Which is why I even bothered to get involved- It looks as if PtA is demanding si2008 play by standards he's exempt from.  He made a definitive statement and no one said boo about it.
But I did show evidence from the Ecumenical Councils to defend my assertion that Augustine is a saint.  So what are you crying about?


My experience is that nitpickers are anything but with themselves.
He don't know me very well, DO HE? ;)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 05:36:35 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2009, 05:34:26 PM »
Sorry, but I think you need to do a little bit more research before you make this statement again. ;)  Blessed Augustine IS a saint in the Orthodox Church, though we don't base much of our theological tradition on his teachings.

I am confused by this statement and need help.   Could you point out what in our theological tradition in based on Saint Augustine's teachings? 
I actually said the exact opposite, that you won't find much in our theological tradition that's based on St. Augustine's teachings.
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2009, 05:44:59 PM »
Yes, but I didn't KNOW he is definitively considered a saint by the Orthodox Church since many things I've read, and heard from both priest and godmother, have informed me that he is NOT.

So forgive me, a sinner.

It sounds like your priest could use a refresher in his own synod's calendar of saints.  It took me all of thirty seconds to go to www.oca.org and find St. Augustine of Hippo in the section on lives of the saints.  If you search for "augustine," there, he's the second result, after St. Augustine of Canterbury.  His feast day is June 15 and it has a picture of an icon of him and a brief summary of his life. 
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2009, 06:02:07 PM »


 Anyone who has spent any time here reading threads knows that PeterTheAleut takes exception to any such statement w/o backup.


Which is why I even bothered to get involved- It looks as if PtA is demanding si2008 play by standards he's exempt from.  He made a definitive statement and no one said boo about it.
But I did show evidence from the Ecumenical Councils to defend my assertion that Augustine is a saint.  So what are you crying about?
Uh huh.  And si2008 showed evidence to defend her assertion.  Anyway, I don't think you're playing nice and I really don't care for the way some folks seem to be ganging up on her so I'll just leave it at. 
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2009, 06:19:42 PM »
There's an Orthodox Church named after St.Agustine of Hippo.

http://www.staugustinedenver.org/
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Offline philalethe00

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2009, 07:22:23 PM »
Hello!  :)

Saint Augustine raises issues that cause a lot of heartache.  :)

Thank God that I've had the time to study a lot about him.

Fr. Metallinos, academian(professor of theology at university, I mean), for example, has written a lot about him.
It's true, that he is a saint of the Church berore the schism and so forth.

But there are "tons of" his teachings that were heretic, that were not orthodox. I think it might help in comprehending his progress in life and dogmatic "output", if I added that before he became a Christian, he was a neoplatonic philosopher, so he was influenced by the hellenistic tradition of the time.

A very-well known idea-dogma of his is "praedestinatio", which means that not only does God know the future in advance, but he has preordained it.

Lastly, I think it would be helpful if I reminded that no Saint was "flawless" or immaculate or sin-less. Every one, I think, has a certain number of fallacies or personal views about theological issues. Especially when there were not so many Synods, for instance St. Augustine's age...

« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 07:26:16 PM by philalethe00 »
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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2009, 07:33:42 PM »
Hello!  :)

Saint Augustine raises issues that cause a lot of heartache.  :)

Thant God that I've had the time to study a lot about him.

Fr. Metallinos, academic, for example, has written a lot about him.
It's true, that he is a saint of the Church berore the schism and so forth.

But, there are "tons of" his teachings that were heretic, that were not orthodox.

I am no theologian but from what I have read, I tend to believe that Western European "Reformers" of the 16-th century, especially Calvin, read a lot "into" St./Bl. Augustine and it is mostly based on their interpretation of Augustine that we deem him not quite Orthodox, not based on his own writings.

I think it might help in comprehending his story, if I added that before he became a Christian, he was a neoplatonic philosopher, so he was influenced by the hellenistic tradition of the time.

Well, but Origen was a 100% "Hellenistic" and "Neoplatonic," too, and yet some Orthodox call him a "great teacher of the faith." Moreover, Prof. A.V. Kartashov in his very voluminous and detailed book titled "Ecumenical Councils" (I have provided the link in the thread, "What are you reading?"), says, and gives evidence, that there was quite a lot of Neo-Platonism in the writings of the Great Cappadoccians (St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nissa and St. Gregory the Theologian). It took the Church A LOT of time to gradually "squeeze" Neo-Platonism from Herself, and before the late 7th or the early 8th century (St. John of Damascus) it is not even fair to "incriminate" Neo-Platonism to any one given Church writer. Heck, there are tons and tons and tons of Hellenistic dualism (body bad, spirit/soul good) in thousands of sermons delivered by Orthodox priests to this day (I can give you quotes from Ukrainian and Russian priests on the Internet), and in thousands of Orthodox prayers to the saints...
 

« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 07:35:32 PM by Heorhij »
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Offline philalethe00

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2009, 07:48:03 PM »
Brother Heorhij,
what an interesting answer!   :)

As regards the Great Cappadoccians Fathers, I think that, if we attributed neoplatonic essence to them, we'd be unfair. But, of course, there can be seen a lot of (neo)platonic, and, generally, philosophical form, words, terms, syntax, rhetoric methods in their work.
And it is the use of language that sometimes causes trouble. For example, it's not the same if St. Basil  says "flesh" and condemns it(or Apostle St. Paul) and if Plato or Plotinus, neoplatonic philosopher, or Porhyrius, or Iamblichus or ... , if they do the same. The former condemn certain types of sins. Platonics, the latter, condemn the body itself, which they regard as a tomb. Don't know if I was as clear as I'd like...  :-[
Hope I was.  ;) :)
Edit: Oh, and regarding Origen, there was the first Philokalia, which was an anthology made up by St. Gregory theologian and St. Basil, which consisted only of Origen's sayings! That is, he was recognized as heretic and he truly was very-very neoplatonic, but the Fathers thought that there were a lot of gems in his work, and, so, they discerned the worthy part from the not good(and honoured the former).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 07:54:43 PM by philalethe00 »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2009, 11:45:15 PM »
I am no theologian but from what I have read, I tend to believe that Western European "Reformers" of the 16-th century, especially Calvin, read a lot "into" St./Bl. Augustine and it is mostly based on their interpretation of Augustine that we deem him not quite Orthodox, not based on his own writings.


The idea that Calvin took Saint Auguistine and twisted his theology is not entirely true.  In the case of predestination to salvation or damnation/reprobation Saint Augustine was unfortunately just as fierce.  Calvin was simply re-presenting the Augustinian teaching which the Church of the West had wisely laid to one side and ignored.

See this EWTN article
by Fr William Most.

ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION Fr. William Most
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.HTM

The article deals with Augustine's teaching of the "Massa damnata et damnabilis." 

We remember that when Saint Photios of Constantinople began to read Augustine in Greek translation he found these and other ideas so heretical that he assumed, very charitably, that Augustine cannot have been responsible for them.  He thought that heretics in later centuries had corrupted Saint Augustine's text.

Offline Heorhij

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2009, 08:10:03 AM »
I am no theologian but from what I have read, I tend to believe that Western European "Reformers" of the 16-th century, especially Calvin, read a lot "into" St./Bl. Augustine and it is mostly based on their interpretation of Augustine that we deem him not quite Orthodox, not based on his own writings.


The idea that Calvin took Saint Auguistine and twisted his theology is not entirely true.  In the case of predestination to salvation or damnation/reprobation Saint Augustine was unfortunately just as fierce.  Calvin was simply re-presenting the Augustinian teaching which the Church of the West had wisely laid to one side and ignored.

See this EWTN article
by Fr William Most.

ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION Fr. William Most
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.HTM

The article deals with Augustine's teaching of the "Massa damnata et damnabilis." 

We remember that when Saint Photios of Constantinople began to read Augustine in Greek translation he found these and other ideas so heretical that he assumed, very charitably, that Augustine cannot have been responsible for them.  He thought that heretics in later centuries had corrupted Saint Augustine's text.

Thank you, Father. That's new to me, very interesting. And thank you, Philathele00.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2009, 09:55:49 AM »
Dear Papist,

No, I am not a Pelagian but I would not object to being called a semi-pelagian.


See St. John Cassian on Grace and Free Will: his famous Conference XIII.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf211.toc.html

St. John Cassian was a contemporary of St. Augustine in Gaul. Though living in the West he was in heart and mind a Father of the East. He was the first to respectfully object to certain of Saint Augustine's theological imprecisions concerning grace and free will.   He was supported in his anti-Augustine stance by the monasteries of southern France.

Conference XIII is a superb statement of the Orthodox doctrine of synergy (wrongly dubbed "semi-Pelagianism" by modern Western writers): God working with man to effect his salvation.

One should also read two "books" in St. John's treatise Against the Nestorians which deal with the heresy of Pelagianism: Book I and Book V (at the above URL.)

Offline Douglas

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2009, 10:35:31 AM »
Yes, but I didn't KNOW he is definitively considered a saint by the Orthodox Church since many things I've read, and heard from both priest and godmother, have informed me that he is NOT.

So forgive me, a sinner.

I take you seriously, Sister in Christ. Your priest and your godmother are good sources (as are my own). In my opinion (and we're both entitled to opinions), Augustine is not a saint in the Orthodox Church (yet).
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2009, 10:44:37 AM »
Augustine is not a saint in the Orthodox Church (yet).
That is weird. I have heard him (Augustine) commemorated at many Divine Liturgies in the Antiochian Archdiocese as a Saint of OUR Faith, and Tradition. It does sound as though this is just your opinion. It is certainly not the opinion of the Church.

Offline Douglas

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2009, 11:07:30 AM »
Well... let's put it like this, Nicholas. I've been Orthodox now for eighteen years. In that time I've been a member of three different churches (all in different jurisdictions as it turns out: GOA, Ant., OCA). Never once in any of these churches was Augustine commemorate as a saint in the Orthodox Church. His status was that of "blessed" Augustine of Hippo. So, it's actually more than simply my opinion. But that could mean that the priests of these churches were all wrong too. BTW... the Prologue of Ochrid also does not list him as a Saint in the Church. I'd be most interested if you could show me a listing (i.e. similar to the Prologue or the one compiled by St Demetri of Rostov) in which he is commemorated as a Saint. I'm always up to learning new things.  ;)
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2009, 11:23:01 AM »
Well... let's put it like this, Nicholas. I've been Orthodox now for eighteen years. In that time I've been a member of three different churches (all in different jurisdictions as it turns out: GOA, Ant., OCA). Never once in any of these churches was Augustine commemorate as a saint in the Orthodox Church. His status was that of "blessed" Augustine of Hippo. So, it's actually more than simply my opinion. But that could mean that the priests of these churches were all wrong too. BTW... the Prologue of Ochrid also does not list him as a Saint in the Church. I'd be most interested if you could show me a listing (i.e. similar to the Prologue or the one compiled by St Demetri of Rostov) in which he is commemorated as a Saint. I'm always up to learning new things.  ;)
I thought that if they were commemorated at the closing of the Divine Liturgy, by NAME, that it is officially recognised (canonically) that they are a saint. Why did I hear his name?

Offline Douglas

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2009, 11:41:39 AM »
Possibly, Nicholas, because he was commemorated. Frankly, having done some quick reading this morning from two sites listed below, I'm now confused myself (hey... can you imagine me being confused?  :D). Here are the sites:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/bless_aug.aspx

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/augustine/bless_aug.htm

What I wonder is this: is there a day on which blessed Augustine is commemorated and if so which day and who compiled this? Secondly, I'm curious as to whether there is a real difference (a difference of theological substance) between "blessed" and "Saint" used before a name?
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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2009, 11:48:36 AM »
Possibly, Nicholas, because he was commemorated. Frankly, having done some quick reading this morning from two sites listed below, I'm now confused myself (hey... can you imagine me being confused?  :D). Here are the sites:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/bless_aug.aspx

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/augustine/bless_aug.htm

What I wonder is this: is there a day on which blessed Augustine is commemorated and if so which day and who compiled this? Secondly, I'm curious as to whether there is a real difference (a difference of theological substance) between "blessed" and "Saint" used before a name?

I was always under the impression that the differentiation between "Saint" and "Blessed" is a Roman Catholic thing and not an Orthodox one. 
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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2009, 12:31:24 PM »
What I wonder is this: is there a day on which blessed Augustine is commemorated and if so which day and who compiled this? Secondly, I'm curious as to whether there is a real difference (a difference of theological substance) between "blessed" and "Saint" used before a name?

May I refer you to this post from Veniamin?

Yes, but I didn't KNOW he is definitively considered a saint by the Orthodox Church since many things I've read, and heard from both priest and godmother, have informed me that he is NOT.

So forgive me, a sinner.

It sounds like your priest could use a refresher in his own synod's calendar of saints.  It took me all of thirty seconds to go to www.oca.org and find St. Augustine of Hippo in the section on lives of the saints.  If you search for "augustine," there, he's the second result, after St. Augustine of Canterbury.  His feast day is June 15 and it has a picture of an icon of him and a brief summary of his life. 
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Offline Michael L

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2009, 12:35:18 PM »
St. Augustine is commemorated on June 15 along with his mother St. Monica

Orthodox Church in America
http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=101736

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8153

Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese
http://www.staugustinedenver.org/about_sta.html

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2009, 02:59:00 PM »
I've heard of Greek people named Augustine or Augustina.

I am troubled when Priests teach falsehood - a call to one's Bishop is in order.   :police:

Offline zoarthegleaner

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2009, 03:14:28 PM »
I am not agreeable with the expression that the Saintliness of Augustine is debatable, though I don't doubt that some are ready to debate it.

Not all Saints are equal to the Apostles.  There are many saints whose memory is seldom commemerated in Parishes, but I think we must look beyond the Parish commemeration or even some Monastic commerations.

Augustine is a bridge into Orthodoxy, and one which I believe would be wholly unjustifiable to burn.  For me Augustine was the first saint with whom I began to read and learning about him began to tear the spider webs of Protestantism from my mind.  Augustine did not awaken within me a love for the Orthodox Church, but then he has been used and abused on both sides of the river.
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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2009, 03:23:28 PM »
Blessed Augustine, Bishop of Hippo - commemorated on June 15/28.

Seems pretty conclusive to me.
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2009, 03:39:34 PM »
Blessed Augustine, Bishop of Hippo - commemorated on June 15/28.

Seems pretty conclusive to me.
Yes, it looks like it to me.

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2009, 07:40:43 PM »
Folks, Augustine of Hippo is listed on the calendar of saints for June 15 by the Greek and Russian churches, and he is also listed in the Prologue of Ochrid. Others have also mentioned that he is also on the Antiochian calendar.

Controversy as to whether someone should be proclaimed a saint is nothing new. A recent example is the proclamation of sainthood of the last imperial family of Russia. (PLEASE! Leave those cans of worms shut!!). Our personal feelings are one thing, but if the Church, in her wisdom, has spoken, then we all have to deal with it. Zoar's comment of "not all saints are equals to the apostles" is very good advice.
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2009, 08:02:31 PM »
Possibly, Nicholas, because he was commemorated. Frankly, having done some quick reading this morning from two sites listed below, I'm now confused myself (hey... can you imagine me being confused?  :D). Here are the sites:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/bless_aug.aspx

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/augustine/bless_aug.htm

What I wonder is this: is there a day on which blessed Augustine is commemorated and if so which day and who compiled this? Secondly, I'm curious as to whether there is a real difference (a difference of theological substance) between "blessed" and "Saint" used before a name?

I was always under the impression that the differentiation between "Saint" and "Blessed" is a Roman Catholic thing and not an Orthodox one. 


To elaborate a little, I've heard (and I don't vouch for how accurate this is) that in Orthodox usage, the difference between "Saint" and "Blessed" has more to do with regional differences in how saints were titled in the early Church rather than any substantive distinction in their status.
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Offline mike

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2009, 08:32:44 AM »
Not all Saints are equal to the Apostles.  There are many saints whose memory is seldom commemorated in Parishes, but I think we must look beyond the Parish commemoration or even some Monastic commutations.

They are.

There aren't degrees in Heaven. Each saved man, canonised or not, is rewarded in the same way as others.

Different Saints have done different amount of the work on Earth - that's obvious,. They can be venerated by more or less people - but they are treated in the same way by God. [Mt. 20, 1-16]
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Offline Douglas

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Re: Is Augustine of Hippo an Orthodox Saint?
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2009, 10:12:40 AM »
Not all Saints are equal to the Apostles.  There are many saints whose memory is seldom commemorated in Parishes, but I think we must look beyond the Parish commemoration or even some Monastic commutations.

They are.

There aren't degrees in Heaven. Each saved man, canonised or not, is rewarded in the same way as others.

Different Saints have done different amount of the work on Earth - that's obvious,. They can be venerated by more or less people - but they are treated in the same way by God. [Mt. 20, 1-16]

This is definitely NOT scriptural. We are NOT rewarded in the same way. The Lord Himself told His apostles when they asked to receive the seats at His right hand that such is reserved for those for whom it is reserved. There are many passages in the epistles as well that indicate our rewards will definitely not be the same.
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