Author Topic: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?  (Read 500 times)

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Offline LBK

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Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« on: July 30, 2015, 01:37:20 AM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2015, 03:54:00 AM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)
'Η ἐλπίς μου ὁ Πατήρ, καταφυγή μου ὁ Υἱός, σκέπη μου τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον· Τριὰς Ἁγία, δόξα Σοι.

Offline LBK

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2015, 03:57:28 AM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)

Every Greek menaion and liturgical calendar has this entry for January 6: Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 03:58:55 AM by LBK »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2015, 04:01:46 AM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)

Every Greek menaion and liturgical calendar has this entry for January 6: Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
Yes. Is there something wrong with the word "Epiphany" that requires an Orthodox Christian to be pedantic?
'Η ἐλπίς μου ὁ Πατήρ, καταφυγή μου ὁ Υἱός, σκέπη μου τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον· Τριὰς Ἁγία, δόξα Σοι.

Offline LBK

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2015, 04:06:08 AM »
Epiphany simply means "appearance". Theophany speaks of the specifically Trinitarian significance of this feast, as repeatedly expressed in the hymns of the feast.

If that's being pedantic, you might wish to take it up with those who named the feast and composed the hymns in the first place.

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2015, 04:34:49 AM »
Epiphany simply means "appearance". Theophany speaks of the specifically Trinitarian significance of this feast, as repeatedly expressed in the hymns of the feast.

If that's being pedantic, you might wish to take it up with those who named the feast and composed the hymns in the first place.
If the entire Trinity is contained inside the word "Theophany," then the entire Orthodox doctrine on essence/energies is contained inside "Epiphany."

The hymns show that their authors liked to describe the event as both an epiphany and a theophany, which is true. The formal name of a feast does not exclude other descriptors. Maybe you should hunt down and correct all the English speakers that say "Christmas" or "Nativity" instead of "The Genesis of Christ."

Pedantic and presumptive to assume that you are the voice of the Church. What benefit are you actually introducing here?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 04:36:02 AM by Antonis »
'Η ἐλπίς μου ὁ Πατήρ, καταφυγή μου ὁ Υἱός, σκέπη μου τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον· Τριὰς Ἁγία, δόξα Σοι.

Offline LBK

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2015, 05:13:42 AM »
Epiphany simply means "appearance". Theophany speaks of the specifically Trinitarian significance of this feast, as repeatedly expressed in the hymns of the feast.

If that's being pedantic, you might wish to take it up with those who named the feast and composed the hymns in the first place.
If the entire Trinity is contained inside the word "Theophany," then the entire Orthodox doctrine on essence/energies is contained inside "Epiphany."

The hymns show that their authors liked to describe the event as both an epiphany and a theophany, which is true. The formal name of a feast does not exclude other descriptors. Maybe you should hunt down and correct all the English speakers that say "Christmas" or "Nativity" instead of "The Genesis of Christ."

Pedantic and presumptive to assume that you are the voice of the Church. What benefit are you actually introducing here?

The fact remains that the feast in question is officially and consistently called Theophany (Theophaneia, Bogoyavleniye, etc) throughout the Orthodox Church. I have given a major reason why this is the case, consistent with liturgical tradition.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2015, 11:28:26 AM »
Epiphany simply means "appearance". Theophany speaks of the specifically Trinitarian significance of this feast, as repeatedly expressed in the hymns of the feast.

If that's being pedantic, you might wish to take it up with those who named the feast and composed the hymns in the first place.
If the entire Trinity is contained inside the word "Theophany," then the entire Orthodox doctrine on essence/energies is contained inside "Epiphany."

The hymns show that their authors liked to describe the event as both an epiphany and a theophany, which is true. The formal name of a feast does not exclude other descriptors. Maybe you should hunt down and correct all the English speakers that say "Christmas" or "Nativity" instead of "The Genesis of Christ."

Pedantic and presumptive to assume that you are the voice of the Church. What benefit are you actually introducing here?

The fact remains that the feast in question is officially and consistently called Theophany (Theophaneia, Bogoyavleniye, etc) throughout the Orthodox Church.

Except from 2-5 January. 
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2015, 12:07:25 PM »
Epiphany simply means "appearance". Theophany speaks of the specifically Trinitarian significance of this feast, as repeatedly expressed in the hymns of the feast.

If that's being pedantic, you might wish to take it up with those who named the feast and composed the hymns in the first place.
If the entire Trinity is contained inside the word "Theophany," then the entire Orthodox doctrine on essence/energies is contained inside "Epiphany."

The hymns show that their authors liked to describe the event as both an epiphany and a theophany, which is true. The formal name of a feast does not exclude other descriptors. Maybe you should hunt down and correct all the English speakers that say "Christmas" or "Nativity" instead of "The Genesis of Christ."

Pedantic and presumptive to assume that you are the voice of the Church. What benefit are you actually introducing here?

The fact remains that the feast in question is officially and consistently called Theophany (Theophaneia, Bogoyavleniye, etc) throughout the Orthodox Church. I have given a major reason why this is the case, consistent with liturgical tradition.
Wonderful. I hope you never refer to The Genesis of Christ as "Nativity" or "Christmas" or we'll have to have a conversation. While we're at it, is "Transfiguration" really the best translation of the feast of the Metamorphosis?

Enjoy.
'Η ἐλπίς μου ὁ Πατήρ, καταφυγή μου ὁ Υἱός, σκέπη μου τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον· Τριὰς Ἁγία, δόξα Σοι.

Offline Salpy

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2015, 12:41:06 PM »
Epiphany simply means "appearance". Theophany speaks of the specifically Trinitarian significance of this feast, as repeatedly expressed in the hymns of the feast.

If that's being pedantic, you might wish to take it up with those who named the feast and composed the hymns in the first place.
If the entire Trinity is contained inside the word "Theophany," then the entire Orthodox doctrine on essence/energies is contained inside "Epiphany."

The hymns show that their authors liked to describe the event as both an epiphany and a theophany, which is true. The formal name of a feast does not exclude other descriptors. Maybe you should hunt down and correct all the English speakers that say "Christmas" or "Nativity" instead of "The Genesis of Christ."

Pedantic and presumptive to assume that you are the voice of the Church. What benefit are you actually introducing here?

The fact remains that the feast in question is officially and consistently called Theophany (Theophaneia, Bogoyavleniye, etc) throughout the Orthodox Church.

Except from 2-5 January.

Is there a difference in meaning between the the two words? I'm totally confused.  Is there a difference between OO and EO tradition in this?

Offline Maria

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2015, 12:43:19 PM »
Epiphany simply means "appearance". Theophany speaks of the specifically Trinitarian significance of this feast, as repeatedly expressed in the hymns of the feast.

If that's being pedantic, you might wish to take it up with those who named the feast and composed the hymns in the first place.
If the entire Trinity is contained inside the word "Theophany," then the entire Orthodox doctrine on essence/energies is contained inside "Epiphany."

The hymns show that their authors liked to describe the event as both an epiphany and a theophany, which is true. The formal name of a feast does not exclude other descriptors. Maybe you should hunt down and correct all the English speakers that say "Christmas" or "Nativity" instead of "The Genesis of Christ."

Pedantic and presumptive to assume that you are the voice of the Church. What benefit are you actually introducing here?

The fact remains that the feast in question is officially and consistently called Theophany (Theophaneia, Bogoyavleniye, etc) throughout the Orthodox Church.

Except from 2-5 January.

Is there a difference in meaning between the the two words? I'm totally confused.  Is there a difference between OO and EO tradition in this?

The EO celebrate Theophany [Baptism of Christ] or Epiphany on January 6/19.

When do the OO celebrate this feast day?

Don't the Armenians celebrate Christmas, the coming of the Three Wise Men, and the Baptism of Christ all on January 6? And don't they call it Epiphany?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 12:46:14 PM by Maria »
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2015, 12:47:54 PM »
Armenians do the Baptism of Christ (whatever it is called in English) on the same day as Christmas, which is Jan. 6 (Jan. 19 Old Calendar.)

Other OO do them separate.

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2015, 12:51:04 PM »
And the coming of the Wise Men is on the same day, although we don't do anything special for it. 

I have no idea what to call anything now.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2015, 01:22:39 PM »
Epiphany simply means "appearance". Theophany speaks of the specifically Trinitarian significance of this feast, as repeatedly expressed in the hymns of the feast.

If that's being pedantic, you might wish to take it up with those who named the feast and composed the hymns in the first place.
If the entire Trinity is contained inside the word "Theophany," then the entire Orthodox doctrine on essence/energies is contained inside "Epiphany."

The hymns show that their authors liked to describe the event as both an epiphany and a theophany, which is true. The formal name of a feast does not exclude other descriptors. Maybe you should hunt down and correct all the English speakers that say "Christmas" or "Nativity" instead of "The Genesis of Christ."

Pedantic and presumptive to assume that you are the voice of the Church. What benefit are you actually introducing here?

The fact remains that the feast in question is officially and consistently called Theophany (Theophaneia, Bogoyavleniye, etc) throughout the Orthodox Church.

Except from 2-5 January.

Is there a difference in meaning between the the two words? I'm totally confused.  Is there a difference between OO and EO tradition in this?

The feast celebrated on 6 January has a few names: "Epiphany" ("manifestation" or "appearance"), "Theophany" ("manifestation/appearance of God"), "The Lights", "The Dawn", or simply "The Baptism".  Each focuses on one or another aspect of the feast.  Some traditions prefer one term even while using the others. 

I don't think there's any need for confusion.  This isn't a difference between OO and EO except in terms of which name is more commonly used among the people.  What seems to have happened in this thread is that an attempt was made to transform a particular terminology into a quasi-dogmatic issue for no good reason. 
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Offline Maria

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2015, 01:28:33 PM »
Epiphany simply means "appearance". Theophany speaks of the specifically Trinitarian significance of this feast, as repeatedly expressed in the hymns of the feast.

If that's being pedantic, you might wish to take it up with those who named the feast and composed the hymns in the first place.
If the entire Trinity is contained inside the word "Theophany," then the entire Orthodox doctrine on essence/energies is contained inside "Epiphany."

The hymns show that their authors liked to describe the event as both an epiphany and a theophany, which is true. The formal name of a feast does not exclude other descriptors. Maybe you should hunt down and correct all the English speakers that say "Christmas" or "Nativity" instead of "The Genesis of Christ."

Pedantic and presumptive to assume that you are the voice of the Church. What benefit are you actually introducing here?

The fact remains that the feast in question is officially and consistently called Theophany (Theophaneia, Bogoyavleniye, etc) throughout the Orthodox Church.

Except from 2-5 January.

Is there a difference in meaning between the the two words? I'm totally confused.  Is there a difference between OO and EO tradition in this?

The feast celebrated on 6 January has a few names: "Epiphany" ("manifestation" or "appearance"), "Theophany" ("manifestation/appearance of God"), "The Lights", "The Dawn", or simply "The Baptism".  Each focuses on one or another aspect of the feast.  Some traditions prefer one term even while using the others. 


Great explanation Mor!
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2015, 08:22:43 PM »
You say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ3fjQa5Hls
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 11:15:20 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2015, 02:03:10 AM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)

English translation, please.  :-)

Offline Salpy

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2015, 02:04:41 AM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)

Every Greek menaion and liturgical calendar has this entry for January 6: Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

English translation, please. :-)


Offline LBK

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2015, 09:21:20 AM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)

Every Greek menaion and liturgical calendar has this entry for January 6: Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

English translation, please. :-)

Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. means The Holy Theophany of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Actually, the bolded term is in plural form, expressing the fact that all three persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest on that day, as the festal troparion and other hymns proclaim.
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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2015, 12:24:58 PM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)

Every Greek menaion and liturgical calendar has this entry for January 6: Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

English translation, please. :-)

Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. means The Holy Theophany of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Actually, the bolded term is in plural form, expressing the fact that all three persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest on that day, as the festal troparion and other hymns proclaim.

How, exactly, does plural theophanies of one explicitly named person express "the fact that all three persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest on that day"?     
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline LBK

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2015, 07:22:51 PM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)

Every Greek menaion and liturgical calendar has this entry for January 6: Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

English translation, please. :-)

Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. means The Holy Theophany of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Actually, the bolded term is in plural form, expressing the fact that all three persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest on that day, as the festal troparion and other hymns proclaim.

How, exactly, does plural theophanies of one explicitly named person express "the fact that all three persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest on that day"?   

The hymns of the feast answer your question.
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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2015, 07:30:48 PM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)

Every Greek menaion and liturgical calendar has this entry for January 6: Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

English translation, please. :-)

Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. means The Holy Theophany of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Actually, the bolded term is in plural form, expressing the fact that all three persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest on that day, as the festal troparion and other hymns proclaim.

Thanks.  :)

Offline Arachne

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2015, 07:40:03 PM »
How, exactly, does plural theophanies of one explicitly named person express "the fact that all three persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest on that day"?   

The hymns of the feast answer your question.

Text in English here.
Chanted in Greek here.
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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2015, 08:05:16 PM »
Note that the Byzantine Rite hymns only apply to the Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic churches.  Its a little silly to say the the Oriental Orthodox must refer to the Baptism of our Lord as the Theophany on the basis of hymns which we may or may not use (actually a blow by blow comparison of the details of how we do the Epiphany or Theophany will make for some enjoyable reading for me this afternoon).

For my part I think Theophany is preferrable in the interests of ecumenical reconciliation, in that as a rule, where possible, the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox should try to share a common liturgical terminology in English, and also the feast is signifigant for the appearance, visbly or audibly, of all three members of the Trinity.  At St. Ephraim's Cathedral in Burbank the Baptism of the Lord is depicted with the Holy Spirit descending towards him in the form of the dove, in the frescoes that decorate the altar (which are alas with one exception not really drawn from Syriac aources of iconography).

However I dont think we should be doctrinaire about this.  I still often refer to Pascha as Easter in verbal speech as it frankly sounds better in the English language.  For that matter, I would have no qualms about calling Pentecost Sunday Whitsunday, so as to diatinguish it from the days of the week that follow, and also from the overall liturgical seasons described by the Pentecostarion.  Even within the Eastern Orthodox Church, one of the oldest OCA churches in Alaska is the Cathedral of the Assumption, rather thanof the Dormition, a curious deviation in liturgical language.  I believe that cathedral is in Sitka.  And for whatever reason the Oriental Orthodox liturgical calendars all refer to the event as the Assumption even though our beliefs about what happened are precisely the same as the Eastern Orthodox.
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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2015, 10:45:26 PM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

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Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)

Every Greek menaion and liturgical calendar has this entry for January 6: Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

English translation, please. :-)

Τὰ Ἅγια Θεοφάνεια τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ. means The Holy Theophany of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Actually, the bolded term is in plural form, expressing the fact that all three persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest on that day, as the festal troparion and other hymns proclaim.

How, exactly, does plural theophanies of one explicitly named person express "the fact that all three persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest on that day"?   

The hymns of the feast answer your question.

Nope.  The name is plural, as you mentioned, yet the plural manifestations are ascribed to one person.  This is simply the older name for a feast that originally commemorated a few "appearances" of Christ: the Nativity, the Adoration of the Magi, the Baptism, and the Miracle at Cana, among others. 

I don't deny that the texts of the feast (as it currently appears in Byzantine rite liturgical books) refer to the revelation of the Trinity at the baptism of Christ, but that is not the source of the name of the feast.   
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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2015, 12:30:04 PM »
One rather disconcerting thing by the way is that the Anglicans and Methodists commemorate on Epiphany the appearance of fhe Three Magi rather than the Baptsm of our Lord, which along with the Transfiguration managed to fall out of the BCP liturgical calendar.

Although in recent years and prayer books, Epiphany has been restored to its original meaning, presumably because Methodist and Anglican choirs really love singing the African American spiritual hymn "Wade in the River."  ( I once had the sardonic idea of attempting to teach that hymn to the Mandaeans and getting them to use it given their status as extreme enthusiasts of baptism in general and John the Baptist specifically.  I would love to hear that hymn sung in their extremely phlegmatoc dialect of Eastern Aramaic.  But I dount I could find a priest or treasurer (bishop) who would be sympathetic to my request.   :P )   And more recent BCPs restore the Transfiguration also.

Yet another baffling change has occurred however and that is the Roman Catholics no longer celebrate the Baptism of Christ on Epiphany but rather have pushed it back a few days as a separate feast.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 12:38:04 PM by wgw »
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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2015, 12:56:47 PM »
One rather disconcerting thing by the way is that the Anglicans and Methodists commemorate on Epiphany the appearance of fhe Three Magi rather than the Baptsm of our Lord, which along with the Transfiguration managed to fall out of the BCP liturgical calendar.

...

Yet another baffling change has occurred however and that is the Roman Catholics no longer celebrate the Baptism of Christ on Epiphany but rather have pushed it back a few days as a separate feast.

There is a history behind this and, in a Western context, it makes perfect sense. 
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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2015, 01:03:54 PM »
One rather disconcerting thing by the way is that the Anglicans and Methodists commemorate on Epiphany the appearance of fhe Three Magi rather than the Baptsm of our Lord, which along with the Transfiguration managed to fall out of the BCP liturgical calendar.

Although in recent years and prayer books, Epiphany has been restored to its original meaning, presumably because Methodist and Anglican choirs really love singing the African American spiritual hymn "Wade in the River."  ( I once had the sardonic idea of attempting to teach that hymn to the Mandaeans and getting them to use it given their status as extreme enthusiasts of baptism in general and John the Baptist specifically.  I would love to hear that hymn sung in their extremely phlegmatoc dialect of Eastern Aramaic.  But I dount I could find a priest or treasurer (bishop) who would be sympathetic to my request.   :P )   And more recent BCPs restore the Transfiguration also.

Yet another baffling change has occurred however and that is the Roman Catholics no longer celebrate the Baptism of Christ on Epiphany but rather have pushed it back a few days as a separate feast.

I was a "cradle" Roman Catholic, although from Maronite ancestry.
 
Since my family moved quite frequently following my dad's government-contract jobs, we attended quite a few Roman Catholic parishes. They were all on the same page, following the same missal. The Baptism of our Lord was usually celebrated AFTER the Epiphany (Coming of the Magi). Epiphany used to be always celebrated on January 6, but the Baptism of the Lord was celebrated on a Sunday, so it varied.

However, now Rome has apparently stipulated that the Epiphany is to be celebrated on a Sunday so that more people can attend the services.

Have they now merged the two feasts? Change seems to be the perennial condition of the Vatican.
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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2015, 08:53:17 PM »
One rather disconcerting thing by the way is that the Anglicans and Methodists commemorate on Epiphany the appearance of fhe Three Magi rather than the Baptsm of our Lord, which along with the Transfiguration managed to fall out of the BCP liturgical calendar.

Not disconcerting in the least, and this is also preserved in Western Orthodox tradition today. In the feast's earlier forms it commemorated quite a few different instances of Christ's "shining forth" (epiphany). We still see this in the Western hymnography in the Magnificat antiphon for the second Vespers of Epiphany:

Now do we celebrate a holy day adorned by three miracles: today a star led the wise men to the manger; today water was made wine at the wedding feast; today Christ vouchsafed to be baptized of John in Jordan that He might save us, alleluia.

It crystallized into being associated more with the Nativity pretty early on, however. The account we have from Etheria and her pilgrimage in Jerusalem describes how they went about celebrating the eight days of this Octave. The Catholic Encyclopedia concludes thus, "The procession to Bethlehem was nightly repeated. It will be seen, accordingly, that this Epiphany octave had throughout so strong a Nativity colouring as to lead to the exclusion of the commemoration of the Baptism in the year 385."

We can read from St. Philastrius, from around the same time period, that there were heretics who refused to celebrate Epiphany because it was perceived to be a needless duplication of the Nativity.

Pope St. Leo the Great, in his homilies of this feast, focuses almost exclusively on the Magi and says in Sermon xxxv, Col. 249, that their visit was the commemoration for which the feast was instituted.

There's plenty of other evidence that this is indeed an ancient, venerable tradition of the Orthodox West.

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2015, 09:56:17 PM »
We can read from St. Philastrius, from around the same time period, that there were heretics who refused to celebrate Epiphany because it was perceived to be a needless duplication of the Nativity.

Pope St. Leo the Great, in his homilies of this feast, focuses almost exclusively on the Magi and says in Sermon xxxv, Col. 249, that their visit was the commemoration for which the feast was instituted.

Thanks for these details, I am learning of them for the first time from you. 
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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2015, 12:46:02 AM »
I don't think it is appropriate to see an oceanographer's bare knees.


I gather she would be valued for providing information for the feast of the Epiphany Theophany.

FIFY.
Επεφάνης σήμερον τή οικουμένη, καί τό φώς σου Κύριε, εσημειώθη εφ’ ημάς, έν επιγνώσει υμνούντάς σε. Ήλθες εφάνης τό Φώς τό απρόσιτον. (Κοντάκιον Ήχος δ’)

English translation, please.  :-)
On this day Thou hast appeared unto the whole world, and Thy light, O Sovereign Lord, is signed on us who sing Thy praise and chant with knowledge: Thou hast now come, Thou hast appeared, O Thou Light unappproachable.
'Η ἐλπίς μου ὁ Πατήρ, καταφυγή μου ὁ Υἱός, σκέπη μου τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον· Τριὰς Ἁγία, δόξα Σοι.

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2015, 12:47:14 AM »
Thanks. :-)

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Re: Is it Epiphany or Theophany?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2015, 04:08:08 AM »
My parish name is Holy Epiphany but  my Bishop translated it as  Agia Theopanion in Greek.
I also wonder why it is not translated as Aghia Ephipaneia but I never asked it.
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