St. Andrew Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Bloomingdale, IL Enters a Schism

[pious1]

Independent of the Greeks and the Russians.

And the canons it seems.

I dont know if I like your tone... but how does one become cannonicaly recognized, tell me the requirements...

[HandmaidenofGod]

Liza, tell me how the Kyivan Patriarchate is not what you are looking for? Because they havent recieved cannonical recognition yet? It will happen. Meanwhile the UOC in the US is under the omophoron of the EP. Is the Romanian Church? Is the Serbian? The Russian? No they have their own patriarachats and patriarch. Yes his holiness Patriarch Filaret was in the Russian church til the eraly 90s. Guess what so where ALL Ukrainian clergy as there was no Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine til 1990. So is the logic it better to be under the Greeks until the greek recognize the UOC-KP cannonically then UOCUSa would leave the EP and Join the UOCKP? The UOCUSA bishops are listed as bishops of ancient Greek areas ie Ierepolis. I have no problem with the EP as it is the mother church but I want what you want and we have it...just not the recognition , yet.... When his Holiness Mystyslav was alive and in charge of the UOCUSA we didnt have cannonical recognition either. Does that mean you would have prefered to been under the Greeks then as well?

Yes. Either we believe in One, Holy, Apostolic Church or we don't. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Furthermore, as AMERICANS (remember, we are in the USA?) we should be working towards jurisdictional unity to have an American Patriarch; not be going back to the "old country" for our Patriarchs.

[HandmaidenofGod]

And may I ask what is so terrible about being under the Ecumenical Patrairch? What is wrong with reporting to a Greek Bishop? He doesn't impose Greek culture or customs on us. For the most part +Metropolitan CONSTANTINE, +ArchBishop ANTONY, and +Bishop DANIEL are able to run the Diocese as they see fit. (Within the canons of the Church of course.)

Parish's are still able to use Ukrainian or Church Slavonic in the Liturgy. Parish's who wish to remain on the Old Calendar are able to do so, and Ukrainian traditions are upheld. The only time one hears "Greek" in the Liturgy is on Pascha when we say "Christ is risen!" in a multitidue of languages, during an ordination when "Axios!" is proclaimed, and during a Heirarchal Liturgy when "Eis polla, eti despota!" is sung. (There may be a few other Greek phrases I'm forgetting, but these are phrases that are said in every Orthodox Church, regardless of Bishop or jurisdiction.)

So really, how has having a Greek Bishop affected your life? Do you feel less Ukrainian because of it? Do your vareniky or perohie or perogies (or whatever you call them) taste less flavorful? Do feel the desire to dance the Greek sailor dance instead of the Ukrainian Hopka? Or maybe your faith has suffered because of the Greek Bishop we serve? Is the "Oche Nash" no longer satisfactory, and now you must say the "Our Father" in Greek?

I'm really interested in knowing what detrimental effects reporting to the Ecumenical Patriarch has caused, that you feel breaking from the body of Christ is the only solution.

[ozgeorge]

Independent of the Greeks and the Russians.

You mean the Turks and the Russians don't you? As far as I know, Constantinople is not in Greece.

[LizaSymonenko]

Liza, tell me how the Kyivan Patriarchate is not what you are looking for? Because they havent recieved cannonical recognition yet? It will happen. Meanwhile the UOC in the US is under the omophoron of the EP. Is the Romanian Church? Is the Serbian? The Russian? No they have their own patriarachats and patriarch. Yes his holiness Patriarch Filaret was in the Russian church til the eraly 90s. Guess what so where ALL Ukrainian clergy as there was no Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine til 1990. So is the logic it better to be under the Greeks until the greek recognize the UOC-KP cannonically then UOCUSa would leave the EP and Join the UOCKP? The UOCUSA bishops are listed as bishops of ancient Greek areas ie Ierepolis. I have no problem with the EP as it is the mother church but I want what you want and we have it...just not the recognition , yet.... When his Holiness Mystyslav was alive and in charge of the UOCUSA we didnt have cannonical recognition either. Does that mean you would have prefered to been under the Greeks then as well?

Well...where to begin....

Honestly, I am not looking for an argument....and my heart breaks for all the Ukrainians in Ukraine....because of the whole hierarchical chaos.  What's a Ukrainian in Ukraine to do?  Does he go to the Ukrainian Church run by the MP....well, that makes him a bad Ukrainian, doesn't it?  However, the sacraments would be valid, as it is a canonical church.  Does he attend the KP....where he can be a proud Ukrainian and uphold his national pride...and yet...what of Orthodoxy?

It's a horrible, horrible situation!  This is only the devil's work trying to destroy such a God-fearing and Faithful people.  There's no questions about it.  But, we WILL persevere...and Christ WILL win.
In the meantime, however, His sheep are misled, and they are running astray....confused as to which shepherd to follow.

How come you can support P. Filaret so openly and lovingly?

Forget the fact that he was under the Russian Church in the 90's.  That doesn't really matter.  What DOES matter was his suppression of an independent Ukraine and Ukrainian Church.  How convenient that he changed his mind...and became a proud Ukrainian when Russian doors were closed to him.  No?

How is it that a defrocked priest....and an excommunicated man....who is not even allowed to take Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church....has appointed himself as a leader?  How can he be a patriarch?
What insolence and pride on his part?

Honestly, with the whole mess of 3 separate churches vying for power in Ukraine...do you think any are truly concerned about the souls of their followers?  I think not.  If they were, they would work together for an amicable arrangement.  Do you think Moscow is truly concerned for the Ukrainian souls or is it that they want jurisdiction and power of the Ukrainian state.  Be honest. 

I will repeat myself....all three need to go away....and we need to start from scratch.

May God preserve Ukraine and save Ukrainians and the rest of us from the deceptions of the devil, and may He construct a strong, unified, canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church....for it will only happen through His hands.

As for today...I will happily remain "under the EP"...for I choose God before I choose Ukraine....otherwise, what's the point of fighting for a Ukrainian Church...if you don't choose God first?  It's a Church not a social club.

Slava Icycy Christu!
Слава Ісусу Христу!
Glory to Jesus Christ!

[ialmisry]

Independent of the Greeks and the Russians.

And the canons it seems.

I dont know if I like your tone... but how does one become cannonicaly recognized, tell me the requirements...

I concur with Handmaiden and Liza's responses.

As is well known, the OCA is not universally recognized, just by the majority of Orthodox, and it is still in canonical standing with those who do not recognize it.  "Patriarch Filoret" is not universally recognized in a different sense: no canonical Orthodox either recognizes or communes with him.

I'm neither Russian nor Ukrainian (nor for that matter Greek), so I don't have a dog in this fight (except Bucovina, my sons are Romanian) except Orthodoxy as a whole: I have a standard policy against phyletism, and against diaspora mentality and suppression of Churches.  Myself I would want an autocephalous patriarchate in Kiev, but not Filaret.  He brings too much baggage. If the canonical Met. Volodymyr accepted the KP synod, I'd be quite fine with that.  I would hope Moscow figures out how to deal with that.

[ialmisry]

Independent of the Greeks and the Russians.

You mean the Turks and the Russians don't you? As far as I know, Constantinople is not in Greece.

The Turks may be the masters of the Phanar, but it is staffed and financed by Greeks.

[Starlight]

It has come to my attention that the Patriarch of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP will be visiting the parish of St. Andrew in Bloomingdale to bless their new mosaic. It is interesting reading these threads on the division between the UOC- under EP and the UOC-KP believers. Those that stress cannon versus non cannon, only the Lord knows what is right or wrong. Personally I hope that all Ukrainian churches unite into one Ukrainian Patriarchy. Unfortunetly with the politics involved, I dont see that happening. I do question this though...before 1995 apparently all the Ukrainian orthodox Churches under Bound Brook were Uncannonical until they sought the ompiphorion of the EP. So my question is this....if I was married in a Ukrainian Orthodox Church before 1995, is my marriage null and void bc the priest and church who preformed the ceremony was uncannonical? Same goes for baptism. My grandparents and great granparents who are dead and buried had their funerals conducted before 1995 by non cannonical priests bc UOCUSA was non cannonical. Patriarch Mystylsav of Blessed Memory was uncannonical and formed an uncannonical church when he became Patriarch of Ukraine in the early 90's Does this mean that Met. Constantine and Archbishop Antony were uncannonical until 1995 and every service they performed was null and void? Rather than hate and throw nasty accusations at one another, shouldnt we in the interest of our church and culture strive to unify?

I do know this much, this nastiness and hate needs to stop. Respect peoples differences and live and let live as long as no damage is done.

Please see the reply #39 in this thread for explanation.

[Starlight]

Yes. Either we believe in One, Holy, Apostolic Church or we don't. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Exactly. And Mr. Filaret Denysenko and his followers decided to run outside of One, Holy, Apostolic Church.

[Paladin1]

It's interesting.  So far I haven't seen anyone offer any convincing evidence that the UOC-KP is an uncanonical Church.  There has been a lot of oblique references to the "the canons," but no one has offered any specific canon that renders the UOC-KP uncanonical.

There are three parallel church structures in Ukraine that all claim to be Orthodox.  Their bishops all have Apostolic succession.  They are not separated by doctrine.  The only church structure that is recognized by the Orthodox Church is the UOC (MP).  There is no question that this is an uncanonical situation and that a schism exists, but there is much question about who exactly is to blame for the schism.  Filaret Denysenko is a compromised individual and a convenient scapegoat.

The religious situation in Ukraine following the 1988 Millenium of Orthodox Christianity was quite complicated.  The Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the UAOC under Metropolitan Mstyslav, the UOC-MP under Metropolitan Filaret and the Russian Orthodox Church under Patriarch Alexei ALL made their contributions to the schism.  The schism is about phyletic nationalism (both Russian and Ukrainian), sectarianism and control of parishes.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Welcome to the forum, Paladin1!

[Paladin1]

It has come to my attention that the Patriarch of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP will be visiting the parish of St. Andrew in Bloomingdale to bless their new mosaic. It is interesting reading these threads on the division between the UOC- under EP and the UOC-KP believers. Those that stress cannon versus non cannon, only the Lord knows what is right or wrong. Personally I hope that all Ukrainian churches unite into one Ukrainian Patriarchy. Unfortunetly with the politics involved, I dont see that happening. I do question this though...before 1995 apparently all the Ukrainian orthodox Churches under Bound Brook were Uncannonical until they sought the ompiphorion of the EP. So my question is this....if I was married in a Ukrainian Orthodox Church before 1995, is my marriage null and void bc the priest and church who preformed the ceremony was uncannonical? Same goes for baptism. My grandparents and great granparents who are dead and buried had their funerals conducted before 1995 by non cannonical priests bc UOCUSA was non cannonical. Patriarch Mystylsav of Blessed Memory was uncannonical and formed an uncannonical church when he became Patriarch of Ukraine in the early 90's Does this mean that Met. Constantine and Archbishop Antony were uncannonical until 1995 and every service they performed was null and void? Rather than hate and throw nasty accusations at one another, shouldnt we in the interest of our church and culture strive to unify?

I do know this much, this nastiness and hate needs to stop. Respect peoples differences and live and let live as long as no damage is done.

Is your marriage null and void?  Of course not.

The status of the UOCUSA before 1995 wasn't so much "uncanonical" is it was *unrecognized.*  The UAOC was founded in 1942 by hierarchs consecrated by the Orthodox Church of Poland.  When the Red Army reoccupied Ukraine, much of the UAOC hierarchy fled into exile.  It was basically a church without a country (or canonical territory), and as such it occupied the same canonical "grey zone" as ROCOR for several decades.  Like ROCOR, the UAOC was an Orthodox church in exile.

Unrecognized?  Certainly, but not forgotten.  The UOCUSA obtained myrrh from the Ecumenical Patriarchate during those years, which would not have been possible if it was considered outside of Orthodoxy. 

Finally, it has not been the practice of the Orthodox Church to invalidate sacraments performed in other Christian churches.  When converts come to Orthodoxy from the Roman Catholic or mainstream Protestant churches, they are not required to be remarried or rebaptized.

[Paladin1]

Welcome to the forum, Paladin1!

Thank you!

[Paladin1]

Forget the fact that he was under the Russian Church in the 90's.  That doesn't really matter.  What DOES matter was his suppression of an independent Ukraine and Ukrainian Church.  How convenient that he changed his mind...and became a proud Ukrainian when Russian doors were closed to him.  No?

How is it that a defrocked priest....and an excommunicated man....who is not even allowed to take Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church....has appointed himself as a leader?  How can he be a patriarch?
What insolence and pride on his part?

Honestly, with the whole mess of 3 separate churches vying for power in Ukraine...do you think any are truly concerned about the souls of their followers?  I think not.  If they were, they would work together for an amicable arrangement.  Do you think Moscow is truly concerned for the Ukrainian souls or is it that they want jurisdiction and power of the Ukrainian state.  Be honest. 

I will repeat myself....all three need to go away....and we need to start from scratch.

You make several good points about Filaret Denysenko.  He became a Ukrainian nationalist when the political winds changed in Ukraine.  He also had children while he served as a "bishop."

He was defrocked by the Holy Synod of the ROC.  Why?  Was it his children?  No, they knew about this when he was the Metropolitan of Kiev for the ROC.  Was it because he organized a sobor of the UOC-MP that unanimously asked the ROC Holy Synod for canonical autocephaly? Yes.  Can you defrock a bishop for doing that?  No (and if someone disagrees, please feel free to cite the relevant canon).

The fact that the ROC defrocked bishops who refused to repudiate their signatures in the 1991 request for autocephaly undoubtedly contributed to the schism that affects the Ukrainian Church to this day.

[Father H]

You have hit the nail on the head Liza.   

How come you can support P. Filaret so openly and lovingly?

Forget the fact that he was under the Russian Church in the 90's.  That doesn't really matter.  What DOES matter was his suppression of an independent Ukraine and Ukrainian Church.  How convenient that he changed his mind...and became a proud Ukrainian when Russian doors were closed to him.  No?

How is it that a defrocked priest....and an excommunicated man....who is not even allowed to take Holy Communion in an Orthodox Church....has appointed himself as a leader?  How can he be a patriarch?
What insolence and pride on his part?...

May God preserve Ukraine and save Ukrainians and the rest of us from the deceptions of the devil, and may He construct a strong, unified, canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church....for it will only happen through His hands.

As for today...I will happily remain "under the EP"...for I choose God before I choose Ukraine....otherwise, what's the point of fighting for a Ukrainian Church...if you don't choose God first?  It's a Church not a social club.

[Orest]

I am still orthodox, just as a Greek Orthodox is part of his GREEK church and a Bulgarian Orthodox is part of the BULGARIAN church. Whether or not you consider the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP cannonical or not is irrelevent. We worship the same god, hold the same holy mysteries, and difference being that the Bishops of Bound Brook left us and we went back to our original Ukrainian church. This cannonical vs non cannonical argument by Bishop Antony's subdeacon is a load of malarkey. Patriarch Mystaslav was considered non cannonical by EP and Moscow yet I dare one Ukrainian to claim he was illegal. The big difference is Filaret was elected and not Antony as Patriarch so Bound Brook decided to join the Greeks. I have no problem with the Greek church as it is the mother church. But her Patriarch is not Ukraine's partriarch. And the bishops have no legal right to parish property. If we were liek the Catholics and had a centralized Vaticanesq structure, then Bound Brook could build their own parishes and have a say. That doesnt exist. So Liza, dont shame me, shame on you for following poor, deceiptful shepards. I dont even live in New Jersey nor attend the Clifton parish. All I want is one Ukrainian church under Ukrainians. Whether you like Filaret or not, he is the sucessor to Mystyslav. What Bound Brook did is no different than the Govenor of Michigan, bc he didnt like Barack Obama, saying we suceed from the US and are joining Canada however we are still US citizens.

If you love Ukraine so much, why don't you catch the next flight leaving Chicago to Kiev? There's a 6:35 AM flight tomorrow morning.

South Bound Brook (Bound Brook is a different town; the Consistary resides in South Bound Brook) went under the Ecumenical Patriarch so that we wouldn't be under the opression of Moscow and would still be in communion with Worldwide Orthodoxy. Rather than pushing for a "Holy Ukrainian Church" you should be working with your brothers in sisters in Christ here in the US for jurisdictional unity instead of this KP nonsense. You talk about how the GREEKS have a GREEK Church and the BULGARIANS have a BULGARIAN Church, well what about AMERICANS having an AMERICAN Church? Or do you not want a part of that?

Canonicity IS relavent, as it is part of the truth of Orthodoxy.

Rather than draping yourself in the Ukrainian flag, why don't you actually read the canons and see for yourself the importance of canonicity?!

I don't understand why it has to be either or.  My family has been in Canada for over 100 years.  I belong to the Ukrainian Othodox Church of Canada, speak Ukrainian, read Ukrainian and am interested in what happens in Ukraine.  Why should I get on a plane and move to Ukraine? You cannot worship in a vacuum.  I like going to a Ukrainan Othodox Church and I like participating in a liturgy sung in Ukrainian.  I am not draping myself in a Ukraiian flag.  canada has a policy of multiculturalism not a melting pot.
As for Filaret, I agree with Liz.  I have concerns about his real spirituality & morality just like the ormer MP before Patriarch Kiril.  Both were accused of being members of the KGB and both carried a lot of baggage from the communist era.  I pray for a united Autocephalous  Ukranian orthodox Church in Ukraine.
And we don't need schism in our Ukranian Orthodox Church in the USA or in Canada under the EP.

[pious1]

Orest,

I think the biggest issue is whether the UOCUSA created schism by leaving the Ukrainian church in 1995 and joining under the omophor of the EP. Some argue that the bishops created a schism but joining the EP since it was before 1995 a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kievan Patriachate that Patriarch Msytyslav help create. Many people in many Ukrainian Orthodox parishes in the US believe that the bishops in Bound Brook are the ones that creaeted schism. Personally I belive live let live, it seems another major issue is the Bound Brook just doesnt like nor trust Patriarch Filaret...its a sad state but I support St. Andrews parish for staying with the Ukrainian church and agree with Cossack that KP is the true Ukrainian church. i wonder how many more parishes will leave Bound Brook in the next few years...

[LizaSymonenko]

I support St. Andrews parish for staying with the Ukrainian church and agree with Cossack that KP is the true Ukrainian church.

Therein lies the issue. 

It might be a Ukrainian church, but, it's not an Orthodox church.

_______________________________________________________

I agree with you that Ukraine "deserves" a Ukrainian Orthodox Church...I disagree with your statement about the Bishops of the UOCofUSA.

What's a bishop to do?  Leave his flock to wander about aimlessly?  Is it not better to be a member of the True Orthodox Church than just a facade?

Patriarch Msytyslav had not intended for the Ukrainian Church to be in its current state of affairs for this length of time.  He had not envisioned all the issues that would arise in Ukraine concerning Orthodoxy.  He had not anticipated three separate churches vying for power.  Had there been only ONE, then that ONE would have been recognized by world Orthodoxy long ago.  Since we can't get our own affairs in order, it is best to step back, and let these things work themselves out.  In the meantime, lets not leave our sheep out in the cold amongst the wolves; no, let's get them under a watchful shepherd and keep them safe from harm.  Let's not jeopardize the souls of the faithful for our own pride.

I say it again, it's the devil's work to destroy such a God loving, faithful nation, which has given birth to hundreds of Saints.

Instead of perpetuating and assisting the chaos, it is best to leave it to God.  Believe me, in the end He will win.

I agree with Orest, I too am happy under my UOCofUSA bishops, under the EP.  I am still Ukrainian, going to a Ukrainian church, praying in Ukrainian, receiving valid sacraments, etc.

You are fighting for an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church....don't forget this fight is about Orthodoxy, not Ukraine.

It's not a church building, with a Ukrainian flag waving outside.  It is not the brick and mortar you are fighting for...which is what happened with St. Andrews.  Filaret got himself a building!  He has added to his stockpile of building materials... in the meantime, how many souls have been led astray?

Lord have mercy on all involved!

[Paladin1]

I support St. Andrews parish for staying with the Ukrainian church and agree with Cossack that KP is the true Ukrainian church.

Therein lies the issue. 

It might be a Ukrainian church, but, it's not an Orthodox church.

_______________________________________________________



Patriarch Msytyslav had not intended for the Ukrainian Church to be in its current state of affairs for this length of time.  He had not envisioned all the issues that would arise in Ukraine concerning Orthodoxy.  He had not anticipated three separate churches vying for power.  Had there been only ONE, then that ONE would have been recognized by world Orthodoxy long ago.  Since we can't get our own affairs in order, it is best to step back, and let these things work themselves out.  In the meantime, lets not leave our sheep out in the cold amongst the wolves; no, let's get them under a watchful shepherd and keep them safe from harm.  Let's not jeopardize the souls of the faithful for our own pride.

You underestimate the efforts of the Russian Federation and the Russian Orthodox Church.  They both work to undermine Ukraine's independence and have contributed to the Ukrainian schism.  They are motivated by Pan-Slavist ideology, and the last thing they want to see is a self-governing Ukrainian Church.

[LizaSymonenko]

I certainly do not underestimate the Russian Federation.  Just read some of my previous posts (#139).

To be honest....who's to say that Filaret isn't still working "for" the Russians to undermine Ukrainian independence?  He certainly is not helping the Independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  He's just perpetuating the division.  He may have been "sent" in order to destroy the Ukrainian Church "from within".   He despised all things Ukrainian....and now he's leading the Church.  Come on!

Again, I have NOTHING against the Russian Orthodox Church or Russians, just as long as they stay out of Ukraine and Ukrainian affairs.  Ukrainians are not claiming anything Russian for their own, it's Russia who has always tried to take credit for every good thing coming from Ukraine - the poets, the Saints, the food, music, words, Church, etc.

[Heorhij]

Independent of the Greeks and the Russians.

And the canons it seems.

I dont know if I like your tone... but how does one become cannonicaly recognized, tell me the requirements...

Paying 300 pieces of "sobol" skins to the Patriarch, who was deposed one year after for simony. That's how the Moscow Patriarchate became "canonical" and is "canonical" to this day - no?

[DeaconBorislav]

I realize that I am a day late and a dollar short here but it wouldn't hurt to exercise a little Christian charity toward one another...

I find it not the least bit useful to take the history of one or another jurisdiction and use it as a bomb in polemics.  Especially on the internet.  This goes both for the history of the UOCofUSA and the history of the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR.  All are Canonical and respected Jurisdictions in full communion with one another.

As of the so called KP, I would venture a guess that most people who attend KP parishes are wonderful, God-fearing and pious folks who have been led astray by certain individuals who shall remain unnamed.  It is our duty as members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to pray for these people asking God to bring them back to their fathers house.

Finally it would be wonderful if we would always remember that it is much easier to attract people with honey.  We as Christians are called to give our brothers and sisters bread not a brick on the head.

Just my 2 cents...
  

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