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Author Topic: St. Andrew Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Bloomingdale, IL Enters a Schism  (Read 31807 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 24, 2009, 11:45:10 PM »

May it be now known that St. Andrew Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Bloomingdale, IL, made a sad and tragic decision to leave Canonical Orthodoxy and to enter into a schism. Symptomatically, the process transpired during the Holy Week and the Bright Week. The pastor, Very Reverend Fr. Mitred Protopriest Bogdan Kalynyuk made a heroic decision not to follow the path of Judas and therefore, he has been immediately fired by the Parish Board after (7) years of dedicated service in this parish. The final stage of a coup d’etat took place on April 27, 2009, (8 ) days after Pascha.

The aforementioned parish invented a brand new anti-canonical situation. They do not want to belong to any jurisdiction. In the official letter to the parishioners, the leaders of the apostasy made up their version of events and also stated establishment only of “the prayerful communion” with UOC-KP. Certainly, UOC-KP is not canonical. However the process in Bloomingdale went even further. Based on previous experience of dealing with Mr. Filaret Denysenko, they became afraid that he will ultimately take over the assets of the parish. Their god is money and they are afraid that Mr. Filaret Denysenko will come and steel a part of their god. So, they do not want to belong anywhere. The leaders of a takeover plan to collect money from bingo, food sales, etc. and keep it in the parish. Possibly, the formal subordination to some vagante group will be officially declared. Of course, any parish needs to have an antimins, signed by a Hierarch, but they do not care. This aspect does not deal with financial gain, and therefore does not deserve their attention.

Actually, this particular parish ignored all responsibilities to the Diocese and UOC-USA for over a decade. Moreover, in the entire history of this “Christian community”, all priests were either fired by the Parish Board or they asked for a transfer because they could not tolerate the attitude any more. No exceptions. Fr. Bogdan Kalynyuk experienced brutal offenses from parishioners for a memorial service at the grave of one of his predecessors, Rt. Rev. Fr. Protopresbyter Orest Kulick (+1989). Also, Fr. Bogdan restored Sunday school and children / youth programs, but he was severely insulted for his attempts to introduce English language to services.

Over these years, Fr. Bogdan really did his best for St. Andrew’s parish. He managed to turn things around and to revitalize the community. His productive labors could be described in a very long list of accomplishments. Now his efforts were hijacked. Not too many people would possess patience to deal with such a group of individuals for so long.

Those parishioners, who supported Fr. Bogdan during the last meetings, were brutally shut down. The junta of the sect called police. Officers arrived in (2) vehicles, but they found nothing illegal, violent, dangerous or suspicious in the actions and speeches of defenders of Canonical Orthodoxy. Then the leaders of the coup d’etat went so far that they even alleged that illegal immigrants are present among their opponents and threatened to call Immigration Service (?!) to the church.

Fr. Bogdan Kalynyuk, a former professional opera singer, who became an Orthodox priest in Ukraine and then immigrated to USA, has a wife and (2) school-age children. He puts his trust in God. For family reasons, he cannot leave Chicago area. Fr. Bogdan is also a handyman and a skilled, knowledgeable auto mechanic, so he decided to work as a manual laborer and to serve in various parishes. He hopes that one day the parish will be back to the Church and he will be back to the parish.

The Consistory of UOC-USA explicitly expressed strong support and sincere care to Fr. Bogdan and his family. It has to be emphasized that such actions were taken right away.

On the contrary, how does the schismatic management plan to function if they just exercised such actions to a fellow human being, who also, wait a minute, happened to be their Pastor?

Vasyl Truhly acts in charge of the takeover. Simultaneously with removal of Fr. Bogdan, the creators of the schism hired a substitute, a priest of UOC-KP from Ukraine, Yaroslav Vasylyk. He is a native of the same town as Fr. Bogdan and now he will imitate the Divine Liturgy in the sanctified altar of St. Andrew’s.

Based on Holy Canons of the Orthodox Church and information above, the Orthodox faithful in the area are advised to become aware of the absurd status of the group, which occupies the premises of St. Andrew Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Bloomingdale, IL. The nearest Canonical Orthodox churches can be located in accordance with the following sources:
http://www.scoba.us/directory.html
http://www.orthodoxyinamerica.org/lr_v10/locator.php

On a personal note, eventually it could be possible to consider for Canonical Orthodox to periodically visit the community upon adequate blessings. The sole reason is that it may become more realistic to heal the schism with persuasion from outside.

Last, but not least. Please remember the ruling Hierarch, His Grace Bishop Daniel, Fr. Mitred Protopriest Bogdan Kalynyuk, his family and those parishioners, who decided to remain in the Church, instead of a schism, in your prayers.

Edited to remove the Sunglasses Smiley of Doom. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 06:00:17 PM by Veniamin » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2009, 11:53:13 PM »

Lord have mercy.

May the Church come to its senses and rectify schism immediately.

Amen!
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 12:41:41 AM »

Can you please cite a source for this information? I mean no offense, but how do we know that this is not just UOC-USA gossip?
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2009, 12:53:00 AM »

Can you please cite a source for this information? I mean no offense, but how do we know that this is not just UOC-USA gossip?

Sure. This information is based on personal communications with Fr. Bogdan and one of the parishioners at St. Andrew's.
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2009, 01:46:03 AM »

Is there any official statement from the UOC USA backing this up? Furthermore, wouldn't His Grace, +Bishop Daniel remove the antimens from the church as +Bishop Antony did in Clifton, NJ?
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2009, 01:53:00 AM »

I'm sorry if I am coming off as rude, and Mods, maybe you can correct me, but shouldn't there be some sort of official press release or something to back up this kind of information? I mean, at this point this is nothing but hearsay.
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 02:32:25 AM »

Given the nature of events, there is the strong potential for legal action, in which case the Hierarchy and Consistory are probably evaluating the next steps...
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 04:33:20 AM »

Given the nature of events, there is the strong potential for legal action, in which case the Hierarchy and Consistory are probably evaluating the next steps...

Agreed. My point is that until an "official" statement is released from the diocese, should this be reported in the Christian News section of the forum?
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 08:47:27 AM »

Starlight, first of all, may I express my support to you personally, because I know that you have been a faithful member of the St. Andrew parish and you seem to take this situation with sadness. You are in my unworthy prayers.

Second, while I regret about the apparent schism, I remain a very enthusiastic sipporter of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate. I believe that at the end of the day, when the "dust" settles, She will become the canonical Orthodox jurisdiction that unites all Ukrainians, in their home country as well as in the diaspora. It just cannot be otherwise, IMO.
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 08:56:21 AM »

Starlight, first of all, may I express my support to you personally, because I know that you have been a faithful member of the St. Andrew parish and you seem to take this situation with sadness. You are in my unworthy prayers.

Second, while I regret about the apparent schism, I remain a very enthusiastic sipporter of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate. I believe that at the end of the day, when the "dust" settles, She will become the canonical Orthodox jurisdiction that unites all Ukrainians, in their home country as well as in the diaspora. It just cannot be otherwise, IMO.

Oops, sorry, I did not read your original post carefully - you were talking about the Bloomingdale, IL parish, not the Jamaica Plain parish. Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2009, 09:40:05 AM »

Oi, the politics.....
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 09:49:07 AM »

From this distance it all seems so unnecessary, certainly in the US (this parish isn't in the mother country - what dog do they have in this fight really?) but to give the KP credit they may well end up like the Bulgarian Church, uncanonical, said Constantinople, after it broke with C'ople in the 1800s, as part of independence from the Turks, until 1946; today everybody recognises it as Orthodox. But I think Bulgaria was in communion with the rest of the Orthodox (certainly the Russians) so C'ople's opinion didn't mean much. (That's how Orthodoxy works: no Vatican or even a Lambeth. The Orthodox communion just is.) Not so the KP (or the Macedonian Orthodox Church started by Marshal Tito's government in the 1960s). So again it seems like this parish is wasting time and energy.

Orthodox in America who want Ukrainian-language services and specifically Ukrainian culture have South Bound Brook. That ought to be good enough!
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2009, 10:10:54 AM »

From this distance it all seems so unnecessary, certainly in the US (this parish isn't in the mother country - what dog do they have in this fight really?)

I do not know about this particular parish - from Starlight's narrative it does not look good, - but generally speaking, I think, a parish that wants to join the UOC-KP may have the two "dogs": (1) the realization that they as Ukrainians just ought to help the Kyiv Patriarchate to grow and to achieve recognition; and (2) the desire to really, practically work FOR Ukraine in missions, common projects etc.

but to give the KP credit they may well end up like the Bulgarian Church, uncanonical, said Constantinople, after it broke with C'ople in the 1800s, as part of independence from the Turks, until 1946; today everybody recognises it as Orthodox.

Yes, let's hope this will be the way...

But I think Bulgaria was in communion with the rest of the Orthodox (certainly the Russians) so C'ople's opinion didn't mean much. (That's how Orthodoxy works: no Vatican or even a Lambeth. The Orthodox communion just is.) Not so the KP (or the Macedonian Orthodox Church started by Marshal Tito's government in the 1960s). So again it seems like this parish is wasting time and energy.

But WHY is it that no canonical Orthodox jurisdiction is in communion with KP? What's so horrible in KP? I do not think people really believe stories baked in Moscow about Patriarch Filaret being an especially immoral man - look, how come he was officially named by the Moscow Patriarch the only worthy prelate of the Ukrainian "exarchy" in 1990, but so quickly found by the same Moscow Patriarch guilty in all possible crimes in 1991, in just a few months, when the "exarchy" dared to talk about autocephaly? And even if he actually IS the father of illegitimate children - he is 80 years old, and there will be somebody completely different in his place very soon... So, I think the grassroots movement in Ukrainian Orthodoxy outside of Ukraine to help the world recognize the Ukrainian patriarchal see is a legitimate movement and its purpose is very worthy and noble!

Orthodox in America who want Ukrainian-language services and specifically Ukrainian culture have South Bound Brook. That ought to be good enough!

But South Bound Brook is an immigrant-based and an immigrant-oriented jurisdiction. Does it have any missons in Ukraine?
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2009, 11:51:34 AM »

Well, let's have another look at Bulgaria: the country and church were breaking with a hostile non-Christian state, the Ottoman Empire.

Likewise the Orthodox communion accepted ROCOR's reason to exist: they thought the Communists would wipe out the church in Russia and ROCOR'd have to rebuild it there, which thankfully wasn't the case.

My guess is... the reason for the KP's (and Filaret's) break just isn't good enough. They're not breaking away from dhimmitude (being second-class citizens under Muslim rule) or 'Sovietude' (the same but under militant atheist rule) but with... the world's biggest Orthodox church and, not with a Muslim or atheist country, but with an Orthodox country. (No need here to get into Ukrainianism vs Russianism.)

Why can't South Bound Brook or this parish send money and other aid to the mother country through the canonical church there, the MP? (With whom South Bound Brook is in communion, так?) Pride?

Yes, South Bound Brook is immigrant. So is this parish. It's not in the mother country. If it wants to be Ukrainian in America it belongs under South Bound Brook.
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2009, 12:04:29 PM »

Before we claim schism let's hear the other side of the story.  Mr. Filaret Denysenko - please refrain from addressing clergy in this manner. We are sooo PC about heretics - so let's keep it fair, even if we don't agree! angel
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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2009, 01:16:04 PM »

All I'll say now is these splits nothing to do with religion needlessly cause scandal and lead to religious indifference, or why I understand there are more Ruthenian Methodists in America today than Greek Catholics or Orthodox and why the historian of Ruthenians, Paul Magocsi, is an agnostic who goes to a Protestant church because he likes the music (his immigrant family quit the Greek Catholics, then fired an Orthodox priest, and ended up all-American nothingarians, and Magocsi is proud of that). (Yes, there is a religious difference between Greek Catholics - essentially a Western church that uses an Eastern liturgy - and Orthodox but local splits in America often weren't about that.) Again AFAIK the KP and this parish leaving canonical Orthodoxy are not about religion.

Is this the Christian witness one wants to give the sovietised/secularised Ukrainians?
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2009, 01:21:31 PM »

From this distance it all seems so unnecessary, certainly in the US (this parish isn't in the mother country - what dog do they have in this fight really?) but to give the KP credit they may well end up like the Bulgarian Church, uncanonical, said Constantinople, after it broke with C'ople in the 1800s, as part of independence from the Turks, until 1946; today everybody recognises it as Orthodox. But I think Bulgaria was in communion with the rest of the Orthodox (certainly the Russians) so C'ople's opinion didn't mean much. (That's how Orthodoxy works: no Vatican or even a Lambeth. The Orthodox communion just is.) Not so the KP (or the Macedonian Orthodox Church started by Marshal Tito's government in the 1960s). So again it seems like this parish is wasting time and energy.

Orthodox in America who want Ukrainian-language services and specifically Ukrainian culture have South Bound Brook. That ought to be good enough!

While looking up a site for the parish, I came across this:
http://www.uocofusa.org/st_andrew_uos.html
Quote
Saint Andrew’s Society is an integral organization of faithful of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA. dedicated to supporting:

the spiritual rebirth of the people of Ukraine;
the establishment of universal principles of justice, charity and tolerance;
the re-establishment of churches and religious organizations in Ukraine;
the rebirth of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine as a unified Kyivan Patriachate.

Now, I don't have a problem with any of the above, quite the contrary.  But one of the issues that the Ukrainian parishes agreed when they went under the EP, so one posting says, was that they not get involved in the ecclesiastical situation of Ukraine.  This "integral organization" seems to by pass that.  Again, I don't have a problem with that either: why should they just forget Ukraine?  But given the situation there, things like this are bound to happen with the UOC-KP.

What is "prayerful communion" as a jurisdiction?  Sounds rather Anglican.

That being said, if this parish was such a problem from way back, why wasn't it dealt with when they went under the EP?  They've already, apparently gone through the whole legal battle with Holy Ascension and lost: hasn't it dawned on them that that can be replicated?
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« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2009, 01:21:31 PM »

But WHY is it that no canonical Orthodox jurisdiction is in communion with KP? What's so horrible in KP? I do not think people really believe stories baked in Moscow about Patriarch Filaret being an especially immoral man - look, how come he was officially named by the Moscow Patriarch the only worthy prelate of the Ukrainian "exarchy" in 1990, but so quickly found by the same Moscow Patriarch guilty in all possible crimes in 1991, in just a few months, when the "exarchy" dared to talk about autocephaly? And even if he actually IS the father of illegitimate children - he is 80 years old, and there will be somebody completely different in his place very soon... So, I think the grassroots movement in Ukrainian Orthodoxy outside of Ukraine to help the world recognize the Ukrainian patriarchal see is a legitimate movement and its purpose is very worthy and noble!

How about stories "baked" in Ukraine?

That fact that the UAOC, and supposedly Pat. Msytoslav also treated and treats (+?) Filaret as radioactive should give anyone pause.

Yes, the sooner he is replaced with someone else, the better all around.  He knows that, he could just step down.  But he refuses.  Whom does that benefit?
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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2009, 01:36:40 PM »

To preserve cultural ties is one thing; to put money towards creating an autocephelous church in a country you no longer live in is a waste of time and money.

Rather than throwing good money after bad, these people should be working towards jurisdictional unification within the US so that one day we may have one autocephelous American Orthodox Church that preserves the cultural ties of all, and is canonically recognized by all.
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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2009, 01:51:22 PM »

First of all, thank you very much for your attention. The expressed support and provided prayers are really appreciated.

Earlier today, I had a telephone conversation with His Grace Bishop Daniel and he confirmed an existence of a problem in this parish.

The next important thing to say, the views and opinions, provided here are strictly mine only. Also, I really do not want to offend anyone of the respected posters here. Please do not take anything personally, does not matter how broad a disagreement may be.

If and when the official statement will be issued, the every effort will be done in order to provide it here at my earliest convenience. My information here comes from the immediate victims of the schismatic takeover – the members of St. Andrew. Vasyl Truhly supposed to give his presentation at Ukrainian Independent Radio ( http://www.uaradio.com/ ), a Chicago-based Ukrainian language radio service today at 7:00 AM of Central time. Instead, the announcement came up that the program has been postponed until Wednesday in order to give a voice of both sides of Bloomingdale conflict. While the exact time has not been directly said, I just called the radio station and have been informed that the start of the block will be aired approximately around 7:30 AM of Central time on Wednesday, May 27, 2009. Again, please let me remind that the language of the program is Ukrainian - http://uaradio.com/online.php.

Again, no offense intended. But I stand by my previous comments in this topic and other threads about UOC-KP and its status. Based on the style and record of the current leader of UOC-KP, Mr. Filaret Denysenko, it would be very naive to expect real steps from him.

The views, actions and decisions of Filaret back in 1980s were identical to those of Metropolitan Agathangel (Savin), his protégé. In other words, he was equally anti-Ukrainian.

Having said that, I really do not want to demonize the entire KP. Their organization includes many decent individuals. For example, such leaders of the moderate wing of UOC-KP such as Metropolitan Dmitry (Rudyuk), Bishop Evstraty (Zorya), etc., work hard in order to orchestrate to the dialogue with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, UAOC, UOC-MP, even the Patriarchate of Moscow in some cases. It would be definitely better them awesome to see these individuals in proper positions of leadership and authority within the united Local Orthodox Church in Ukraine in communion with all Canonical Orthodox jurisdictions worldwide. Also, there is a lot of cooperation going on between UOC-KP and UOC-MP monasteries in some places in Ukraine. Certainly, many people within UOC-KP would never organize anything similar to the Bloomingdale affair.

If and when dialogue-oriented forces in UOC-MP and UOC-KP will gain more authority, the schism in Ukraine will come to a logical end. UAOC always acted way more acceptive towards reconciliation.


As it has been correctly emphasized by the Young Fogey, we do have a Canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church in USA. Those, who live far away from Ukrainian parishes can found home in another canonical jurisdiction.

Additionally, UOC-USA does not limit itself as an immigrant-based and immigrant-oriented jurisdiction. We are blessed to include great numbers of American-born Ukrainians, American converts of various ethnic and religious backgrounds and converts, who immigrated to USA from other countries. It brings a lot of joy to see converts finding home in UOC-USA. Some of those people joined the ranks of ordained clergy.

UOC-USA cares about Ukraine. Every summer a group of high school and college students comes to orphanages for disable children in Ukraine for work of charity. Most of the summers there were (2) or (3) such groups. The initiator of the aforementioned idea was Hieromonk Daniel (Zelinsky), now Bishop Daniel (Zelinsky), the Ruling Hierarch for the Diocese of Chicago. This has been done in addition to various activities in charity in USA, very often Pan-Orthodox in nature.

We observe an opposite behavior in Bloomingdale. Separately from the essential issue of canonicity, jurisdiction ABC cannot just take over a parish from jurisdiction XYZ because they want so. On top of that, a totally independent Orthodox parish without any Hierarch??? A flock which opted out not to have a Hierarch as their Chief Pastor??? This nonsense goes against thousands years old Canons of the Holy Orthodox Church.

Canonical Orthodox jurisdictions in USA enjoy full Communion with each other. I really cannot understand an urge of anyone in USA, of any nationality if you would, to run like crazy outside of the Church and to seek an absence of Communion, an absence of Christ in the Liturgy.

Yes, the reason why this parish leaves the Canonical Orthodoxy is not about religion.

Again, I strongly hope that no one at OC.net takes these comments personally.
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« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2009, 01:53:06 PM »

Yes, the sooner he is replaced with someone else, the better all around.  He knows that, he could just step down.  But he refuses.  Whom does that benefit?

Whom does that benefit?

His pride. Extremists in both KP and MP. Ultimately, the evil one.
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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2009, 01:57:22 PM »

To preserve cultural ties is one thing; to put money towards creating an autocephelous church in a country you no longer live in is a waste of time and money.

Rather than throwing good money after bad, these people should be working towards jurisdictional unification within the US so that one day we may have one autocephelous American Orthodox Church that preserves the cultural ties of all, and is canonically recognized by all.

Efforts for unity and establishment of a canonical autocephalous church in another country and efforts towards jurisdictional unity in USA are not mutually exclusive efforts.
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2009, 02:55:26 PM »

Comment:

But WHY is it that no canonical Orthodox jurisdiction is in communion with KP? What's so horrible in KP? I do not think people really believe stories baked in Moscow about Patriarch Filaret being an especially immoral man - look, how come he was officially named by the Moscow Patriarch the only worthy prelate of the Ukrainian "exarchy" in 1990, but so quickly found by the same Moscow Patriarch guilty in all possible crimes in 1991, in just a few months, when the "exarchy" dared to talk about autocephaly? And even if he actually IS the father of illegitimate children - he is 80 years old, and there will be somebody completely different in his place very soon... So, I think the grassroots movement in Ukrainian Orthodoxy outside of Ukraine to help the world recognize the Ukrainian patriarchal see is a legitimate movement and its purpose is very worthy and noble!


Reply:  You already have been told the answer to this but, once again because you can't seem to separate religion and politics, you let the answer go in one ear and out the other!  The canonical Orthodox churches do not recognize the KP or Filaret because he is a SELF PROCLAIMED PATRIARCH and claims jurisdiction over a self proclaimed jurisdiction.  Neither he nor his jurisdiction were created by the church or by the canons of the church, but by politics and lay people whose religious feelings are questionable.

It's a shame because so many have been taken in by this man who are devout Orthodox Christians.  A man who went from being a Russophile to being a Ukrainophile when he relized he no longer had the backing of the communist party to keep him in power & authority.  In 1990 most Ukrainian bishops were refusing to go under him because of Russophobic reputation!

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« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2009, 05:15:46 PM »

Wow it is amazing how the facts can be misconstrued. I will address each of these points with the truth, not the warped version posted on this thread. First off, Father Bogdan was not fired as a priest of St Andrew’s but rather he resigned. With the parish board and a majority of the parish wanting to mention the name of Patriarch Filaret in our service and have the Patriarch bless our mosaic in the front of the church, of course Bishop Daniel balked at that request. It is not St Andrews that left, it was the hierarchs of UOC-USA that left the church by waiting until after Patriarch Mystaslav passed away and secretly signing away to Constantinople. The hierachs did it for money. They saw at the time declining membership and dues to the consistory and the hierarchs themselves had grow accustomed to living a life of luxury. The bishops did not in fact bring the issue of whether or not to join the ecumenical-patriarchate with a sobor but rather did it in secret without proper authorization. Remember we are a sobornopravna church not synodonal. It is for that reason that now there are Ukrainian Orthodox Parishes with non-ukrainian priests. Why would an American of non-ukrainian descent become a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and not the OCA? Because BoundBrook needs money and are trying to attract non-Ukrainian as due paying members. Now Father Bogdan, whom I always viewed as a decent priest for many years, resigned rather than disobey his bishop. A priest’s loyalty should be to his parish but instead father Bogdan stated, “I am a soldier and the bishop is my general. I can not disobey my general. This statement out of his own mouth says it all, his loyalty was not to his parish but to his bishop. St. Andrews parish had let it be known for years that they did not approve of the bishops leaving the Ukrainian church and wanting to join Kieven-Patriarchate. This is not an isolated incident. 12 parishes have already left Bound Brook over this issue and more are looking to leave. Bound Brook is so desperate for money they are looking to sell parishes. It’s amazing to me because Bound Brook does not “own” the parishes, the people own the parishes. We are NOT Catholic and Bound Brook is NOT  the Vatican. I personally was sad to see him leave but he left, the parish board did not kick him out. As a matter of fact Father Kalynyuk made more money from the parish of St Andrews than he could have elsewhere. It was the parish board who helped get him a new luxurious  home after complaints from Father Bogdan that the house the parish provided him was not up to his standards.
As for the “schism” most of the people who currently now support Father Bogdan are not parishioners and never have been.  In addition the majority of them are illegals and the few parisioners that are siding with Father Bogdan are being told by him that he was kicked out when he infact resigned. In terms of dirty tacticts, Father Bogdan had his supporters call the parents of the children that were going to first confession to not attend the service nor let their children take part in first confession. Now that is what I call trying to create a schism.
It is not surprising that Father Bogdan is telling everyone he was kicked out. The man was foolish to resign and cut his own financial throat. Now because there is no parish near him where he can transfer, he is becoming desperate. I feel sorry for him and begged him not to resign. Remember this, a priest loyalty as well as a bishop should be to their parishioners and faithful, not their own petty interests.
On a side note, 80% of the parish of St. Andrews back joining Kieven Patriacharte. Much of Father Bogdan’s supporters are non parishioners. Both Father Bogdan and Bishop Daniel realize they have no chance. That is why Father Bogdan is threatening to start his own parish in Elk Grove Village. Go ahead father, who is going to pay for your parish? Not Bound Brook, they are broke. Not your followers, most are illegal’s with limited income.
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« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2009, 06:09:12 PM »

There's enough political discussion tangled up in here that at least some of this thread needs to go to Politics.  Therefore, I am locking this temporarily until we can sort out and split off the offending posts to the Politics forum.
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« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2009, 06:34:54 PM »

The political posts have been split and moved here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21490.0.html.

As a general note to everyone, "someone else did it first" is not a valid excuse for political posts; it just means you're both wrong.  Also, if you feel the need to bring politics into it, you don't have to wait on a mod to split the topic for you.  It's perfectly fine to start a new thread in Politics and link back to this one.

That being said, I'm unlocking this so discussion on the parish schism can continue.

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« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2009, 10:11:32 PM »

Thank you, everyone, for your attention and support.

Dear Cossack 316,
Thank you for your side of the story.
Wow it is amazing how the facts can be misconstrued.
Yes, Mr. Filaret Denysenko became famous internationally for doing so.

First off, Father Bogdan was not fired as a priest of St Andrew’s but rather he resigned. With the parish board and a majority of the parish wanting to mention the name of Patriarch Filaret in our service and have the Patriarch bless our mosaic in the front of the church, of course Bishop Daniel balked at that request.
Fr. Bogdan could not go outside of the Canonical Orthodox Church.

It is not St Andrews that left, it was the hierarchs of UOC-USA that left the church by waiting until after Patriarch Mystaslav passed away and secretly signing away to Constantinople.
Really? No, they did not wait when Patriarch Mstyslav of blessed memory will die. Very unethical to say so. Instead, the leadership of UOC-USA searched and found the way in order to assure the recognition of our Church in communion with all Canonical Orthodoxy worldwide.


The hierachs did it for money. They saw at the time declining membership and dues to the consistory and the hierarchs themselves had grow accustomed to living a life of luxury. The bishops did not in fact bring the issue of whether or not to join the ecumenical-patriarchate with a sobor but rather did it in secret without proper authorization.
Offensive and incorrect. I have an honor to know all our Hierarchs in UOC-USA and UOCC, by the way. I know their modest life styles and extremely busy schedules. With these Hierarchs and other leaders in clergy and laity, we have converts, reverts and new immigrants coming to our parishes. We have a number of new parishes and missions.

All Sobors / Congresses of UOC-USA since 1995 sent greetings to His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew.

Remember we are a sobornopravna church not synodonal.
Exactly! UOC of USA is a sobornopravna Church, and it has been successfully exercised in our Sobors / Congresses under the omophoron of His All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew and the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Great Church of Christ.

Instead, UOC-KP is not a sobornopravna Church. Parishes that went into this schism, UOC-KP have to listen and obey all directions of Mr. Filaret Denysenko and his non-canonical Synod.

It is for that reason that now there are Ukrainian Orthodox Parishes with non-ukrainian priests. Why would an American of non-ukrainian descent become a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and not the OCA? Because BoundBrook needs money and are trying to attract non-Ukrainian as due paying members.
Wow! Truly shocking! This is agressively attacking racism and chauvinism. Such attitude should not have absolutely any place anywhere in Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.   

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make desciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age". Amen". (Matthew, 28:18-20).

We all must welcome converts and other non-Ukrainians and make sure they feel at home. One of many examples how things should be done, can be observed here: http://www.goarch.org/news/ocmcbuilding-2009-05-25

Now Father Bogdan, whom I always viewed as a decent priest for many years, resigned rather than disobey his bishop. A priest’s loyalty should be to his parish but instead father Bogdan stated, “I am a soldier and the bishop is my general. I can not disobey my general. This statement out of his own mouth says it all, his loyalty was not to his parish but to his bishop.
A priest's loyalty should be to the Orthodox Church. A Hierarch, any Hierarch, is the representative of Christ, a father to his flock and an appropriate authority of the Orthodox Church.

In order to emphasize strength of these requirements it can be mentioned that the only imagenable exception in accordance with Canon 15 of Dual Counsel can be applied when a Hierach promotes a known and already disapproved heresy. In other words, such a Hierarch stops to represent the Orthodox Church. Thanks God, it never been applicable in USA in any jurisdiction. In all other cases, a priest has to remain loyal to the Church and to his Hierarch.

Furthermore, on the contrary, the Diocese of Chicago of UOC-USA is truly blessed to have an absolutely wonderful Ruling Hierarch, a man of a extraordinary spirituality, dedication and missionary outreach in person of His Grace Bishop Daniel (Zelinsky). He tirelessly works for the development of the Church.

Holy Canons served the Orthodox Church for thousands of years. This is not our place to re-invent the wheel.

St. Andrews parish had let it be known for years that they did not approve of the bishops leaving the Ukrainian church and wanting to join Kieven-Patriarchate.
So you state the right of a parish to approve or to disapprove the actions of the Hierarchy? It goes against the Canons.

This is not an isolated incident. 12 parishes have already left Bound Brook over this issue and more are looking to leave.
Exaggeration. Incorrect. Instead, St. Mary Proctress Parish in Rochester, NY, came back several years ago. The majority of parishioners of Holy Ascension Parish in Clifton, NY, remained canonical. But they have to serve in the rented premises, because UOC-KP still keeps their beloved church building.

Bound Brook is so desperate for money they are looking to sell parishes.
False. Furthermore, if a parish closes down and sells the assets, money comes to a special Missionary fund. If such a parish re-istablishes itself in (5) years, then this money automatically comes to them for their re-birth and growth. Otherwise, new missions become recepients of aid from the aforementioned fund. Sobors / Congresses of UOC-USA approved this order.

It’s amazing to me because Bound Brook does not “own” the parishes, the people own the parishes. We are NOT Catholic and Bound Brook is NOT  the Vatican.

We are Orthodox, we are not Congregationalists either. We need to act in accordance with the Canons of the Orthodox Church.

I personally was sad to see him leave but he left, the parish board did not kick him out. As a matter of fact Father Kalynyuk made more money from the parish of St Andrews than he could have elsewhere. It was the parish board who helped get him a new luxurious  home after complaints from Father Bogdan that the house the parish provided him was not up to his standards.

As it has been written in the original post, all pastors where pushed out in the history of St. Andrew's Parish in Bloomingdale. No one left enjoying an atmoshepre of Christian spirit, surrounding him.

Fr. Bogdan Kalynyuk learned a number of various skills in his life. How do you know the maximal amount that he could earn? Also, Fr. Bogdan constantly placed a perfect amount of human effort in many labors for the sake of St. Andrew. Some huge parishes in other jurisdictions have capability to provide significantly greater packages of compensation to their clergy and they gladly do so. In any case, a salary should stay as a subject of private metters of a person.

As for the “schism” most of the people who currently now support Father Bogdan are not parishioners and never have been. 
If so, then they belong to the category of people, who aspire to join a canonical parish. And they got drawn to St. Andrew during his pastorate.

In addition the majority of them are illegals and the few parisioners that are siding with Father Bogdan are being told by him that he was kicked out when he infact resigned. In terms of dirty tacticts, Father Bogdan had his supporters call the parents of the children that were going to first confession to not attend the service nor let their children take part in first confession. Now that is what I call trying to create a schism.
It has been repeatedly stated in this thread that to enter into a schism means to leave Canonical Orthodoxy. Such a terrible action took place at St. Andrew. I have not heard about these telephone calls. However, if I was a priest or a parishioner there, I would do the exactly same thing. The first Confession of a child and a following Communion should not occur in schismatic group / sect. This reason appears absolutely identical to the requirement for Orthodox Christian to obstain from receiving a euacharistic Communion in non-Orthodox Churches.

It is not surprising that Father Bogdan is telling everyone he was kicked out. The man was foolish to resign and cut his own financial throat. Now because there is no parish near him where he can transfer, he is becoming desperate. I feel sorry for him and begged him not to resign.


"But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness". (1 Corinthians, 1:23)

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven". (Matthew 5:12)

Actions of martyrs for faith from Roman empire to Soviet Ukraine also looked foolish in the eyes of their persecutors and often of the surrounding population. But during the meeting with God, things suddenly started to look differently.

Blessed will be the confessor of faith, Mitred Protopriest Bogdan, who suffers from persecutions for righteousness's sake. For his is the kingdom of heaven.

Remember this, a priest loyalty as well as a bishop should be to their parishioners and faithful, not their own petty interests.
Please see above.

On a side note, 80% of the parish of St. Andrews back joining Kieven Patriacharte. Much of Father Bogdan’s supporters are non parishioners. Both Father Bogdan and Bishop Daniel realize they have no chance. That is why Father Bogdan is threatening to start his own parish in Elk Grove Village. Go ahead father, who is going to pay for your parish? Not Bound Brook, they are broke. Not your followers, most are illegal’s with limited income.
Several issues. So, you perceieve a creation of a new Orthodox parish as a threat? Next thing, you admit that Fr. Bogdan has enough "followers" in order to start a new parish. Remarks about the immigration status and limited income do not seem charitable. So do the calls to police and threats to call the Immigration Service.

Conclusion:
No God in these actions. And no Christian goals.
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« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2009, 10:43:48 PM »

It is for that reason that now there are Ukrainian Orthodox Parishes with non-ukrainian priests. Why would an American of non-ukrainian descent become a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and not the OCA? Because BoundBrook needs money and are trying to attract non-Ukrainian as due paying members.

Lord, have mercy.  What an awful perspective. 

cossack 316, it breaks my heart to see you care more about preserving your Ukrainian identity than about the Gospel and salvation.

We're Orthodox Christians all; the Ukrainian/Greek/Syrian/Russian/Anglo-American/Whatever ethnicity is COMPLETELY secondary.
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« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2009, 11:45:14 PM »

Wow it is amazing how the facts can be misconstrued. I will address each of these points with the truth, not the warped version posted on this thread. First off, Father Bogdan was not fired as a priest of St Andrew’s but rather he resigned. With the parish board and a majority of the parish wanting to mention the name of Patriarch Filaret in our service and have the Patriarch bless our mosaic in the front of the church, of course Bishop Daniel balked at that request. It is not St Andrews that left, it was the hierarchs of UOC-USA that left the church by waiting until after Patriarch Mystaslav passed away and secretly signing away to Constantinople. The hierachs did it for money. They saw at the time declining membership and dues to the consistory and the hierarchs themselves had grow accustomed to living a life of luxury. The bishops did not in fact bring the issue of whether or not to join the ecumenical-patriarchate with a sobor but rather did it in secret without proper authorization.

A valid point.  The problem is how is the sobor that created the UOC-KP going to pass that standard?


Quote
Remember we are a sobornopravna church not synodonal. It is for that reason that now there are Ukrainian Orthodox Parishes with non-ukrainian priests.

How about with non-Orthodox priests?


Quote
Why would an American of non-ukrainian descent become a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and not the OCA?

Closest Church, like the priest, like the choir, like Ukrainians, any number of reasons.  I've known a couple non-Ukrainians who have.


Quote
Because BoundBrook needs money and are trying to attract non-Ukrainian as due paying members.

Are you serving Orthodoxy, or ethnicity?  Non-Ukrainian money no good?


Quote
Now Father Bogdan, whom I always viewed as a decent priest for many years, resigned rather than disobey his bishop. A priest’s loyalty should be to his parish

That worked soooo well when Aaron's parish told him to make a god when Bishop Moses tarried.

The Bishop provides the antimens: without it you are not a parish.  The parish can't make its own, but again lay ordination is at the root of the UOC-KP's problems.

You got to go Protestant for that to stick.  But then you have to get rid of the mosaics and the other icons, and no Patriarch either.  Protestants don't have those.  And no DL.


Quote
but instead father Bogdan stated, “I am a soldier and the bishop is my general. I can not disobey my general. This statement out of his own mouth says it all, his loyalty was not to his parish but to his bishop.

That is how Christ set it up.


Quote
St. Andrews parish had let it be known for years that they did not approve of the bishops leaving the Ukrainian church and wanting to join Kieven-Patriarchate.

Then why did they join in the first place?  Why didn't they go off to the KP?

Quote
This is not an isolated incident. 12 parishes have already left Bound Brook over this issue and more are looking to leave. Bound Brook is so desperate for money they are looking to sell parishes. It’s amazing to me because Bound Brook does not “own” the parishes, the people own the parishes.


Yes, UOC-USA should have taken care of that.

Quote
We are NOT Catholic

Evidently not, as you do not want to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.


Quote
and Bound Brook is NOT  the Vatican. I personally was sad to see him leave but he left, the parish board did not kick him out. As a matter of fact Father Kalynyuk made more money from the parish of St Andrews than he could have elsewhere. It was the parish board who helped get him a new luxurious  home after complaints from Father Bogdan that the house the parish provided him was not up to his standards.

So Fr. Kalynyuk won't take the 30 pieces of silver.  Many Years!


Quote
As for the “schism” most of the people who currently now support Father Bogdan are not parishioners and never have been.  In addition the majority of them are illegals and the few parisioners that are siding with Father Bogdan are being told by him that he was kicked out when he infact resigned. In terms of dirty tacticts, Father Bogdan had his supporters call the parents of the children that were going to first confession to not attend the service nor let their children take part in first confession.

Since you have no valid bishop, of course the children shouldn't partake of empty rituals.

Quote
Now that is what I call trying to create a schism.

No, that's pastoral care to avoid schismatics and heretics.


Quote
It is not surprising that Father Bogdan is telling everyone he was kicked out. The man was foolish to resign and cut his own financial throat.

What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world an loses his soul?  Someone said that.


Quote
Now because there is no parish near him where he can transfer, he is becoming desperate. I feel sorry for him and begged him not to resign. Remember this, a priest loyalty as well as a bishop should be to their parishioners and faithful, not their own petty interests.

EXACTLY.  The clergy's loyalty should be to their faithful and their salvation, not the parishioners' own petty interests.

I remember having to teach my young sons the difference between what you want and what you need.


Quote
On a side note, 80% of the parish of St. Andrews back joining Kieven Patriacharte. Much of Father Bogdan’s supporters are non parishioners. Both Father Bogdan and Bishop Daniel realize they have no chance. That is why Father Bogdan is threatening to start his own parish in Elk Grove Village. Go ahead father, who is going to pay for your parish? Not Bound Brook, they are broke. Not your followers, most are illegal’s with limited income.

Christ didn't have a large bank account either.
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« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2009, 02:52:51 AM »

Now Father Bogdan, whom I always viewed as a decent priest for many years, resigned rather than disobey his bishop. A priest’s loyalty should be to his parish but instead father Bogdan stated, “I am a soldier and the bishop is my general. I can not disobey my general. This statement out of his own mouth says it all, his loyalty was not to his parish but to his bishop. St. Andrews parish had let it be known for years that they did not approve of the bishops leaving the Ukrainian church and wanting to join Kieven-Patriarchate.
How does this jibe with the doctrine of St. Ignatius of Antioch that we are to look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself and that we are to do nothing as a church apart from the bishop and presbyters?  Don't you think, then, that the act of a parish to break off relations with their bishop in disobedience to said bishop is itself an act of schism?  ISTM that St. Ignatius had some very harsh words to say about such persons.

Remember this, a priest loyalty as well as a bishop should be to their parishioners and faithful, not their own petty interests.
No, the bishop and his priests owe their loyalty only to Jesus Christ and His holy Church, not to the petty interests of their parishioners and faithful.  If anything, you owe your loyalty to your bishop and to his appointed delegate, your priest, and not the other way around.
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« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2009, 05:56:19 AM »

It is not St Andrews that left, it was the hierarchs of UOC-USA that left the church by waiting until after Patriarch Mystaslav passed away and secretly signing away to Constantinople. The hierachs did it for money. They saw at the time declining membership and dues to the consistory and the hierarchs themselves had grow accustomed to living a life of luxury.

You obviously have never visited the consistary in South Bound Brook, or you would KNOW they did NOT do it for money. I grew up in the UOC-USA diocese, 15 minutes from the consistary and lived a block away from it for a while. The Bishops of the UOC-USA are far from rich, and the diocese as a whole certainly is not rich. There was no financial gain in going under the EP; the gain was that Ukrainian Orthodox priests in the US could finally canonically serve with other Orthodox priests in the US without question.

Why would an American of non-ukrainian descent become a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and not the OCA?

Newsflash: Christ told us to go out and make disciples of ALL nations -- that message applies to all of us, not just members of the OCA. If the UOC-USA waits for boatloads of fresh Ukrainian immigrants to fill its pews, the parishes will die. We as Orthodox Christians have a mandate to serve Christ and His Church; not the yellow and blue.

A priest’s loyalty should be to his parish

You may want to take some time to review canon law concerning that.

It appears to me you are more concerned with waving the yellow and blue than you are about spreading the truth of Orthodoxy.

If you want a Ukrainian social club, then join one, but that’s not what the Holy Orthodox Church is about. It is about spreading the message of salvation that comes through Christ and His Holy Church – REGARDLESS OF ETHNIC BACKGROUND OR NATIONALITY.

Let me ask you this: since the UOC-USA has gone under the Ecumencial Patriarch of Constantinople has the Ukrainian culture been diminished at all in the UOC-USA? Has your relationship with God been negatively impacted? Has your relationship with God been impacted at ALL since going under the EP?

If the answer is NO to these questions, then why in the heck would you support a movement to take your parish away from canonical worldwide Orthodoxy?

My guess is that if no one told you that the UOC-USA was under the EP, you wouldn’t know or care whether or not it was the EP, KP, or MP.
Why? Because in the day to day Orthodox existence, the Patriarch the diocese reports to has so little impact on your daily life, you probably don’t feel it at all.

While I am proud of my Ukrainian heritage, to throw good money after bad in a country that is known for corruption, bad government, and poor use of American funds just seems foolish. Let the Ukrainians in Ukraine worry about their own Patriarch, and worry about working out your own salvation within the bound of canonical Orthodoxy over here.
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« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2009, 09:33:21 AM »

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA is a direct descendant of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church resurrected in 1921 by Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivsky and brought to these shores by Bishop Ioan Teodorovych from Ukraine in 1924. On the death of Metropolitan Teodorovych, Metropolitan Mstyslav Skrypnyk provided continuity with the Mother Church and in 1990, at the demise of the Soviet empire, was elected Patriarch Mstyslav I of the One Holy Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kyivan Patriarchate in Ukraine. He was succeeded by Patriarch Volodymyr and upon his repose, the Church is now under the spiritual leadership of His Holiness Patriarch Filaret, the Patriarch of Kyiv and all Ukraine.

Following Ukraine's loss of political independence in the early 1920's, the short-lived, resurrected UOC-Ukraine was systematically destroyed by the Russian regime. This "ethnic cleansing" of the UOC-Ukraine (and of Ukraine itself) in the 1920's, and 30's, saw the murder of virtually every one of the bishops and priests of the UOC-Ukraine, and of tens of millions
of Ukrainian Orthodox laity. In the man-made Famine of 1932-33, alone, engineered by the Russian Regime, some 7-10 million Ukrainian Orthodox were killed within a period of several months. Of particular note is the fact that the UOC-Ukraine was targeted by the Russians for annihilation specifically because of its ethnic Ukrainian identity and assertion of independence, and its pivotal, political, social and cultural role in the process of nation-building. As part of this intentional destruction, all assets of the UOC-Ukraine were usurpedby the Russian regime, and then turned over to its agency, the Russian Orthodox Church.
    As a result of the Russian liquidation of the Mother Church, the UOC-USA diocese, as the surviving US diocese of the UOC-Ukraine, was at all times relevant hereto a custodianand trustee of the Principles of the UOC-Ukraine. For more than half a century, the UOC-USA diocese and its bishops resolutely held themselves out to the public as the key diocese of
the UOC-Ukraine in exile, intent on preserving its independence from foreign rule and on the reestablishment of and reunification with its Mother Church in Kyiv, Ukraine. In 1989, the Mother Church was again reborn in Ukraine as a result of the accelerating disintegration of the Russian (Soviet) Empire and the ensuing declaration of independence by Ukraine. In recognition of and as evidence of the UOC-USA diocese's stewardship and trusteeship of the Ukrainian Orthodox principles, and of its status as the spiritual center of the
“UOC-Ukraine in exile" pending Russian rule of Ukraine, the head of the UOC-USA diocese,
    Metropolitan Mstyslav, was elected as Patriarch of the UOC-Ukraine and of its worldwide dioceses, including the UOC-USA diocese, until his death in 1993. However, even during this new period of rebirth of the UOC-Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church has continued to claim that it is the only legitimate Orthodox Church in Ukraine and continues to demand
and work for the “liquidation” of the UOC-Ukraine. The Greek Patriarchate Church of Constantinople has continued to support Russia and to be allied with the Russian Orthodox Church in calling for the “liquidation” of the UOC-Ukraine. From the time of rebirth of the UOC-Ukraine, its US diocese, UOC-USA, continually and unequivocally represented itself to be an integral part of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Ukraine.
    Following the death of Patriarch Mstyslav, Archbishop Antony [an Archbishop within the UOC-USA] was a candidate at the “Sobor” [conclave] of the Mother Church in Kyiv, Ukraine, to succeed him as Patriarch of the UOC-Ukraine. Archbishop Antony subsequently was unsuccessful in his candidacy, and shortly thereafter, together with other of his followers
within the UOC-USA, clandestinely entered into contracts, agreements, and understandings with the Greek Patriarchate Church of Constantinople. Archbishop Antony and his followers eventually became hierarchs of a different orthodox denomination, assumed Greek Bishop titles, and the Greek Orthodox Church of Constantinople now claims that the UOC-USA is an administrative part of it.
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« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2009, 10:19:36 AM »

^^^Yes, we're all familiar with the history of the UOC-USA and how it came under the EP. That still does not justify this parish's actions to cut itself off from worldwide canonical Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2009, 10:32:36 AM »

Let me ask you this in regards to cannonical??? If Archbishop Antony and Metropaliton Contantine were consecrated by Mystyslav who was the first patriarch of Ukraine and established the KP, does that make them non cannonical since Mystyslav was head of a non cannonical church? Also wouldnt it make most of the priest who were consecrated as priests non cannonical as well since they were consecrated by Antony and Constantine?  My point is its the bishops who left the Ukrainian Church, not the people. When Antony was not elected Patriarch of KP, he left in a huff. Why is it the Bulgarians, Serbians, Greeks, Romanians, Russians, Macedonians, and Coptics have their own Patriarch but bc Filaret doesnt have the blessing of Moscow or Constantinople he is a heretic? Are we to believe the Patriarch of Constantinople and Moscow have the power of the Pope? Is that the goal of Constatinople, have all the Orthodox churches under his authority to rival the Pope?
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« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2009, 10:38:07 AM »

The replay #31 from Cossak 316 has been copied and pasted from the official site of Holy Ascension Parish in Clifton, NJ, a church, kidnaped by Filarestist schismatics. The link has not been provided. The policy of the forum requires to do so. It is here:
http://cliftonorthodoxcathedral.org/aboutus.html

Holodomor of 1932-1933 was a huge tragedy of Ukrainian nation. Some of my relatives died in that genocide. It is very unethical to bring this huge tragedy in order to try to justify a schism from Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America, which takes place in 2009.

For more than half a century, the UOC-USA diocese and its bishops resolutely held themselves out to the public as the key diocese of
the UOC-Ukraine in exile, intent on preserving its independence from foreign rule and on the reestablishment of and reunification with its Mother Church in Kyiv, Ukraine.

Albanian Orthodox Diocese in America and Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Churches in Western Europe have functioned in the Ecumenical Patriarchate for many decades. The same applies to American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese Of course, they remain in the Ecumenical Patriarchate now as well. They brought Gospel and Christian witness to surrounding world (the main goal of the Church) without any damage to the national identity or liturgical tradition.

   Following the death of Patriarch Mstyslav, Archbishop Antony [an Archbishop within the UOC-USA] was a candidate at the “Sobor” [conclave] of the Mother Church in Kyiv, Ukraine, to succeed him as Patriarch of the UOC-Ukraine. Archbishop Antony subsequently was unsuccessful in his candidacy, and shortly thereafter, together with other of his followers
within the UOC-USA, clandestinely entered into contracts, agreements, and understandings with the Greek Patriarchate Church of Constantinople. Archbishop Antony and his followers eventually became hierarchs of a different orthodox denomination, assumed Greek Bishop titles, and the Greek Orthodox Church of Constantinople now claims that the UOC-USA is an administrative part of it.


Moderate circles within UOC-KP tried to resolve the situation and proposed the candidacy of Archbishop Antony (Shcherba), a man of extraordinary faith and wisdom, a great missionary and an energetic leader. Now many surviving members of these moderate circles left to UAOC, some to UOC-MP or they left to Ukraine and belong to Canonical Orthodoxy abroad. Current moderate circles within UOC-KP consist mainly from younger generation, who need a dialogue and who understand the absurdity and pain of the current condition.

Let me emphasize again, UOC-USA always welcomes non-Ukrainians. It was very painful for me to read these offensive chauvinist and racist remarks. Heresy of phyletism has nothing to do with Orthodox teachings. UOC-KP orchestrates a schism in USA, based not only on greed, chauvinism and lies (awfully enough), but also on heretical grounds.

(23) current and (2) retired Hierarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate are not ethnically Greek. What is suppression of the national identity are you talking about?

^^^Yes, we're all familiar with the history of the UOC-USA and how it came under the EP. That still does not justify this parish's actions to cut itself off from worldwide canonical Orthodoxy.

Totally agree!
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« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2009, 10:50:51 AM »


I know that the UOC-USA supports the Ukrainian people in Ukraine.  As was mentioned previously, there are groups who travel to Ukraine to give aid.  Moneys are sent.  Clothing and supplies are sent.  Prayers are sent!  To say that the UOC-USA doesn't support Ukraine is a joke! 

Cossack, have you no fear of God to speak so about something you seem to know so little about.

The fact that your church has opted to go against her bishop, is abdominal.  It is sad to see that cliques run a church and can lead people to perdition.  You do not understand Orthodoxy if you think that going against your bishop, being uncivil to others, etc. is acceptable.

The fact that we don't support the KP, is the RIGHT thing to do at this moment. 

I am all for Ukraine having her own church, just as Russia has hers, and Greece has hers, etc. ..but, not like this.  Not with this man leading her.  No way!  In all of Ukraine, we found nobody more worthy to head our church? 

Lord have mercy!

God bless Metropolitan Constantine, Archbishop Antony, and His Grace Bishop Daniel!  The Lord could not have handpicked three more suitable and worthy men to lead His cause!

Cossack, you make the true cossacks cringe in their graves! 



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« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2009, 10:59:03 AM »

I have several questions.  If Constantinople was in agreement with Moscow, why would they give the UOC of USA Holy Chrism, which His Holiness, Patriarch Mstyslav, before being elected Patriarch, requested of Constantinople?  Also, St. Andrew's, in Boston, celebrated the Millennium in the Cathedral of the Greek Orthodox Diocese of New England, with His Eminence, Methodios as the chief celebrant.  Also why would His Eminence, Archbishop Antony be a candidate for Patriarch and then engineer union with Constantinople, when His Beatitude, Constantine was Metropolitan?  According to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese web site, the UOC of USA is listed as "Other Jurisdictions affiliated (my emphasis) with the Ecumenical Patriarchate".  Note the word is "affiliated".  When I was petitioning for entry into the UOC of USA (by the way, I'm half Ukrainian and half Polish), I was told by the priest to wait until after the Sobor that would or would not ratify the agreement with Constantinople.  So we can see the Sobor of our Church did infact ratify the agreement. I feel we are truly blessed with such wonderful and holy hierarchs.
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« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2009, 11:03:47 AM »

^^I am kind of torn and "in between" the two sides.

On the one hand, yes, of course Christ said, go and make disciples of ALL nations. No one disputes that.

On the other hand, I do have compassion to those people who say, "our grandparents dedicated all their lives to build these UKRAINIAN Churches so that our grandchildren will have just this one last chance not to dissolve their ethnicity, their culture - OUR culture - in this foreign spiritual wasteland... and now we see that these churches are turning into another "garden variety" of culture-less all-American churches with nothing Ukrainian in them..."

I know they exaggerate - but the "vector" is detected correctly, no? I mean, in my "Greek" parish the younger generation of Greeks does not even know any Greek...

So, yes, we have an abominable fact of parishioners rebelling against their priest and bishop. But we also have the circumstances that provide grounds for this "abominable fact."

And we also have Ukraine where the only CONSISTENT pro-Ukrainian, patriotic position is held by the UOC-KP. Yes, splinter, yes, self-proclaimed (if one goes by the letter of the Canons), but nonetheless very popular, and gaining popularity, and, again, really, consistently Ukrainian.

Overall, it is a hard, heartbreaking situation, and I do not want to "scold" any side involved. Lord, have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2009, 11:04:49 AM »

Liza, I never once said the Antony or Constantine were bad people. Personally I grew up with Constantine as my archbishop at St Volodymyrs in Chicago and served him as an altar boy then sub deacon for 10 years. My own mother was personal friends with Archbishop Antony and went with both Constantine and Antony to Kiev in 1990 for the entthronement of Mystyslav as Patriarch of Ukraine. I believe both to be very devout Orthodox Christians. I have not met Bishop Daniel in person so I can say neither pro nor con on him. However the fact remains they turned their back on the Ukrainian church and left to join Constatinople. The reason St Andrew's waited to leave was a hope, a slim hope that this issue would have been resolved and perhaps would return to church that Mystyslav founded. Apparently there is no hope of that so St. Andrews parish does not view it left UOC USA, it views the UOC USA left the Ukrainian church which it was a part of until 1995.
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« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2009, 11:10:36 AM »

Let me ask you this in regards to cannonical??? If Archbishop Antony and Metropaliton Contantine were consecrated by Mystyslav who was the first patriarch of Ukraine and established the KP, does that make them non cannonical since Mystyslav was head of a non cannonical church? Also wouldnt it make most of the priest who were consecrated as priests non cannonical as well since they were consecrated by Antony and Constantine?  My point is its the bishops who left the Ukrainian Church, not the people. When Antony was not elected Patriarch of KP, he left in a huff. Why is it the Bulgarians, Serbians, Greeks, Romanians, Russians, Macedonians, and Coptics have their own Patriarch but bc Filaret doesnt have the blessing of Moscow or Constantinople he is a heretic? Are we to believe the Patriarch of Constantinople and Moscow have the power of the Pope? Is that the goal of Constatinople, have all the Orthodox churches under his authority to rival the Pope?

The diabolic ideology and practice of Communism is responsible that several jurisdictions, which were eventually founded by immigrants became cut off from the administrative Orthodox structures of the mother countries in the areas under Communist control:

Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America now known as Orthodox Church in America
Albanian Orthodox Archdiocese, led by Metropolitan Fan / Theofan (Noli) of blessed memory
Romanian Orthodox Episcopate, led by Archbishop Valerian (Triffa) of blessed memory
Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada
Ukrainian Orthodox Church in USA
Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia

They all had their status enhanced in one way or another. As a result, they all enjoy Communion as integral parts of Canonical Orthodoxy. Instead, when UOC-KP founding Sobor was held, such a meeting contradicted the Statutes of both UOC-MP and UAOC. Therefore, legitimacy of UOC-KP does not exist. In particular, Ukrainian Legal Foundation, (Ukrains'ka Pravnycha Funatsia), led by Serhiy Holovaty in that time, came to this conclusion. Patriarch Mstyslav (Skrypnyk) of blessed memory described UOC-KP not as a union of Ukrainian Orthodox but as a union between Filaret and Antony (Masendich). Late Hierarch Antony (Masendich) totally changed views and jurisdictions several times. And he was changing jurisdictions, which did not have Communion with each other.

Also, Orthodox Canon Law does not use a precedent. A Synod has a full authority to use oikonomia (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Economy) and to accept clergy without any need of re-ordination. Furthermore, in some cases, and I strongly believe that cases of jurisdictions listed in beginning of these message all fit this category, the validity of previous ordinations looked so evident, that re-ordinations were not even considered.

Instead, all ordinations in creation of UOC-KP were done without appropriate authority and appropriate blessings. I saw a video on Youtube, when Filaret and Bishop Yakiv (Panchuk) performed re-ordination of Hierarch Antony (Masendich) from UAOC to UOC-KP. How do you like that? Now more news come. They commemorated Patriarch Alexy (Rediger) during the re-ordination. Does it make any remote sense? Does UOC-KP make any remote sense?

UOC-KP is an uncanonical schism, which tries to get its influence all over the world.
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« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2009, 11:14:53 AM »


God bless Metropolitan Constantine, Archbishop Antony, and His Grace Bishop Daniel!  The Lord could not have handpicked three more suitable and worthy men to lead His cause!

Amen! Totally agree based on years of my own personal experience!

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« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2009, 11:37:38 AM »

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA is a direct descendant of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church resurrected in 1921 by Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivsky

Made autocephalous can have been but not resurrected. It had not been autocephalous before.
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« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2009, 11:44:36 AM »

On one hand, UOC-KP spreads statements, terrible offensive to non-Ukrainians and contradictory to the Bible.

On the other hand, UOC-KP picks violators of canons all over the world. There was a time when Milan Synod, led by Eulogios, a former Roman Catholic priest, anathematized (!!!) in Roman Catholic Church, was a part of UOC-KP. UOC-KP took Archimandrite Chrysostomos (Bakomitros) (http://www.cerkva.info/static/ep_hryzostom.html) from Orthodox Church of Greece and ordained his as a "Bishop" and an "Exarch" in Greece without Communion with Orthodox Church of Greece. What UOC-KP did not know that Orthodoxy exists in Greece? As a result Chrysostomos  has been defrocked. It was a talk to excommunicate him, which would be truly justified, but I am not aware about this decision. The same thing happened in Moldova with Archimandrite Filaret (Panku) of Orthodox Metropolia of Moldova - MP (http://www.cerkva.info/static/ep_filaret.html). He was suspended by Orthodox Metropolia of Moldova - MP for now. In Russia they took Ihumen (?) Ioasaph (Shibayev) - http://www.cerkva.info/static/arhiep_ioasaf.html. Originally, he was an Ihumen in MP, but his biography prior to UOC-KP already raises plenty of red flags. The strangest part - they did not relocate to Ukraine. They continue to reside in Greece, Moldova and Russia.

"Bishop Christopher of Boston" appeared for a very short period of time and then disappeared from the official list of UOC-KP in early 2000s. Canonical Orthodox in Boston have no clue who that schismatic may be.

The same things happened in Ukraine on several occasions with people, coming directly from UAOC or UOC-MP in order to immediately get a panagia and power from Mr. Filaret Denysenko. That included the latest imitation of ordination of Paul (Kravchuk), not listed in the list of Hierarchy of UOC-KP yet.

Of course, all those people did not have blessings of their respective Synods. Instead, when a priest comes to another Local Orthodox Church in order to become a Bishop there, in accordance with canonical procedures, that only benefits.

As it has been previously stated, UOC-KP includes many good people as well. We need to pray for them. If they will take over, the situation in the Church in Ukraine will improve and schisms will cease to exist.
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« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2009, 11:54:17 AM »

As it has been previously stated, UOC-KP includes many good people as well. We need to pray for them. If they will take over, the situation in the Church in Ukraine will improve and schisms will cease to exist.

Completely agree. God help them.
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« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2009, 12:08:38 PM »

I feel we are truly blessed with such wonderful and holy hierarchs.

Exactly! Also, we are truly blessed to have you in UOC-USA.
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