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Author Topic: St. Andrew Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Bloomingdale, IL Enters a Schism  (Read 26497 times) Average Rating: 0
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pious1
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« Reply #180 on: August 29, 2013, 10:18:44 AM »

I know when there is litigation involved and proper legal steps are being taken, that there is some sort of documentation that is made public by the courts, even if it is a simple continuance. Look at when the UOCUSA was suing the parish in Clifton, legal documents were all over the next as the case was proceeding.
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« Reply #181 on: August 29, 2013, 10:23:23 AM »

300k, imagine how many ten of thousands of hours of countless baba's making verenyky by hand from dawn til dusk that is? You would think especially with the difficulty the UOCUSA consistory has financially with half their parishes not even paying them financial dues that this would be taken very seriously and efforts would be made to recover these funds.
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« Reply #182 on: August 29, 2013, 10:24:14 AM »

What's going on??? The president of the board of St. Volodymyr UOC in Chicago has recently quit due to the new priest going to the bank and trying to add his name to the bank accounts.... After Bishop Daniel supported this action the long-time member and parish president has quit.  Seems the root of all evil really is money...
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« Reply #183 on: August 29, 2013, 10:25:40 AM »

Exactly!

How does a priest come to own a church building?  Huh

That seems like it would have trouble written all over it from the very beginning.
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« Reply #184 on: August 29, 2013, 10:37:11 AM »

Independent of the Greeks and the Russians.

And the canons it seems.

I dont know if I like your tone... but how does one become cannonicaly recognized, tell me the requirements...

Paying 300 pieces of "sobol" skins to the Patriarch, who was deposed one year after for simony. That's how the Moscow Patriarchate became "canonical" and is "canonical" to this day - no?
No, it is canonical to this day, but it didn't happen that way-Pope Meletius Pegas refused any gifts,  and insisted on a full synod of the Patriarchs to approve the elevation of the Metropolitinate of Kiev and All Rus' to the Patriarchate of Moscow and All Rus'.  The Metropolitanate of Kiev was translated back to Constantinople at the time of Pat. Jeremia III's elevation of Moscow in Moscow.

The reference is to the translation back to Moscow, but is missleading: Patriarchs at the time were deposed quite regularly, and "simony" was the usual charge used to cover the deed.
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« Reply #185 on: August 29, 2013, 10:43:19 AM »

It may have been disclosed at the sobor, but was never presented to the general membership.  They are the ones who need to know.  Publish a statement, inform the flock who donated all that money.  There is  no transparency and a lack of fiduciary responsibility.  Covering it up or keeping it quiet makes it look all that much worse.

Shouldn't the fact that the 300K was/is money of paying parishioners around the US be reason enough to disclose the happenings?

It's not secret.  It was disclosed and mentioned at the last Sobor, however, details were not able to be revealed because the case was in litigation.

I'm sure you are aware that when cases are in court, certain parties are forbidden from speaking about them, until the entire thing is settled.


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« Reply #186 on: August 29, 2013, 10:45:23 AM »

What's going on??? The president of the board of St. Volodymyr UOC in Chicago has recently quit due to the new priest going to the bank and trying to add his name to the bank accounts.... After Bishop Daniel supported this action the long-time member and parish president has quit.  Seems the root of all evil really is money...

You leave the hierarchs out of this.  

If there's a crooked priest, than I'm sure the whole thing is being dealt with.

You are simply speculating and spreading rumors.


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« Reply #187 on: August 29, 2013, 10:47:04 AM »

It may have been disclosed at the sobor, but was never presented to the general membership.  They are the ones who need to know.  Publish a statement, inform the flock who donated all that money.  There is  no transparency and a lack of fiduciary responsibility.  Covering it up or keeping it quiet makes it look all that much worse.

Shouldn't the fact that the 300K was/is money of paying parishioners around the US be reason enough to disclose the happenings?

It's not secret.  It was disclosed and mentioned at the last Sobor, however, details were not able to be revealed because the case was in litigation.

I'm sure you are aware that when cases are in court, certain parties are forbidden from speaking about them, until the entire thing is settled.



That is a lie.

The whole reason to have a sobor is to inform the general membership.  Nothing is disclosed at the Sobor and the delegates instructed to keep it hush hush!

Nonsense!

If the general public is not aware of something that was discussed at the Sobor, than the issue lies with the delegates they elected and sent to the Sobor.  It is the delegates responsibility to hold a meeting and share the information with their parish.

Stop trying to make trouble.
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« Reply #188 on: August 29, 2013, 11:02:06 AM »

Publish it!

Why so defensive when there is proof of wrong doings.  Put it in writing!  No rumors here, if you think these are rumors, go get the proof for yourself. 

Why don't you publish an article in the UOC Word, or web site informing the membership of what's going on in the church.  There should be no fear or hesitation to do at least that....

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« Reply #189 on: August 29, 2013, 11:07:18 AM »

So now its the delegates fault that the people don't know that money was stolen...And, its the parishioners fault that the treasurer and priest misappropriated funds from church accounts, and its the parishioners fault the priest put the church property in his name.... are you kidding? 

Whatever, no use in debating.  The fact is that they (UOC of USA hierarchs,consistory, priests) do not want the general membership to be well informed about any of these matters.  If they did they would publish it and try to prevent it from happening elsewhere. 

Good Luck!

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« Reply #190 on: August 29, 2013, 11:09:10 AM »

Hierarchs can't be crooked?  Hmmmm, OCA history show any examples....  No one is immune from responsibility.

What's going on??? The president of the board of St. Volodymyr UOC in Chicago has recently quit due to the new priest going to the bank and trying to add his name to the bank accounts.... After Bishop Daniel supported this action the long-time member and parish president has quit.  Seems the root of all evil really is money...

You leave the hierarchs out of this.  

If there's a crooked priest, than I'm sure the whole thing is being dealt with.

You are simply speculating and spreading rumors.



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« Reply #191 on: August 29, 2013, 11:19:51 AM »

What's going on??? The president of the board of St. Volodymyr UOC in Chicago has recently quit due to the new priest going to the bank and trying to add his name to the bank accounts.... After Bishop Daniel supported this action the long-time member and parish president has quit.  Seems the root of all evil really is money...

I do not know about other jurisdictions, but, in my OCA Diocese of the South parish, the uniform parish by-laws stipulates that "Section 3. All expenditures made by check shall be signed by the rector or the priest-in-charge and either the warden or the treasurer. In case there is no assigned priest, the signatures of the warden and the treasurer shall
be required." http://www.dosoca.org/files/DOCUMENTS/RevisedDOSUPB2009.pdf
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« Reply #192 on: August 29, 2013, 11:25:19 AM »

Publish it!

Why so defensive when there is proof of wrong doings.  Put it in writing!  No rumors here, if you think these are rumors, go get the proof for yourself. 

Why don't you publish an article in the UOC Word, or web site informing the membership of what's going on in the church.  There should be no fear or hesitation to do at least that....



Take it easy.  I'm not the one accusing anyone, therefore, what proof do wish for me to publish?
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« Reply #193 on: August 29, 2013, 11:32:45 AM »

So now its the delegates fault that the people don't know that money was stolen...

Absolutely.  If they failed to inform their parish members of what was said openly at the Sobor, it is precisely their fault.  That is the whole point of being an elected delegate.

I went to the Sobor.  Within the next two weeks, we held a special parish meeting, at which we printed off and distributed copies of everything that was said.  Photos were shown, papers where shared.

Parishioners asked questions, and we, the delegates, gave answers.  That's how it works.

If their delegates didn't do this, than they failed as delegates, and should not be elected to that role next time.


And, its the parishioners fault that the treasurer and priest misappropriated funds from church accounts, and its the parishioners fault the priest put the church property in his name.... are you kidding? 


You're letting your anger get the better of you.  I never said any of that, did I?

However, since you do bring it up, where was the auditing committee?  Were they also in cahoots?  Doesn't the parish have a yearly general meeting where everything gets reviewed?

We do.  All the finances are printed up and distributed along with profits, losses, and future budget.  No secrets.


Whatever, no use in debating.  The fact is that they (UOC of USA hierarchs,consistory, priests) do not want the general membership to be well informed about any of these matters.  If they did they would publish it and try to prevent it from happening elsewhere. 


Typical KP rhetoric.  I would expect no less from a KP supporter, then to try to malign the UOCofUSA any chance you get....even if you have to twist the truth.




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« Reply #194 on: August 29, 2013, 11:49:05 AM »

Did you not write this? You clearly you think the parishioners are to blame. 

And your comments about expecting this from a KP member are just absurd.  You have a very big chip on your shoulders, perhaps you need to pray so that it may be healed.

And as for the election comment, would it matter if the priest puts in a bunch of names of his confidants....

You are in la-la land.... keep drinking the UOC-USA Kool-Aid


So, who is to blame?  I think the parishioners, no?

Don't you have a yearly election?

Someone new should have been voted in.
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« Reply #195 on: August 29, 2013, 11:52:23 AM »

Where is the twisting of truth..... in my statements or in the lack of transparency of the UOC-USA consistory. 

Again, please tell me where I twisted the truth.  I can say by your blame on parishioners, delegates and so forth you twist who is to blame.

I am positive it is not the parishioners nor delegates who oversee the funds and the auditing of those funds....

Hypocrisy
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« Reply #196 on: August 29, 2013, 11:57:27 AM »

Did you not write this? You clearly you think the parishioners are to blame. 

I never said the parishioners were to blame for anything.  The delegates, I said, should have reported to the parish what they had heard.

And your comments about expecting this from a KP member are just absurd.  You have a very big chip on your shoulders, perhaps you need to pray so that it may be healed.

Really?  I have the chip?  I'm the one who is always searching for dirt of some sort concerning KP dealings....or are you denying you are a KP supporter, JJ?

I am not the one who is coming across as angry here.  You are.


And as for the election comment, would it matter if the priest puts in a bunch of names of his confidants....


So, you are saying the election of delegates and/or parish treasurer and president, was rigged.  It would matter.

You are in la-la land.... keep drinking the UOC-USA Kool-Aid

Never drank Kool-Aid, but, thanks for the warning...will be sure to avoid it if I see it.
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« Reply #197 on: August 29, 2013, 12:01:40 PM »

Where is the twisting of truth..... in my statements or in the lack of transparency of the UOC-USA consistory. 
Again, please tell me where I twisted the truth.  I can say by your blame on parishioners, delegates and so forth you twist who is to blame.

You are twisting the truth, when you state that the consistory is "hiding" the truth from the general public in regards to the sisterhood funds being stolen.

If the parishes didn't hear about it, that means their delegates didn't do a good job reporting what was covered at the Sobor.

I am positive it is not the parishioners nor delegates who oversee the funds and the auditing of those funds....

Hypocrisy

You are confusing two separate cases.

Besides, there ought to be an elected auditing committee that oversees the finances.

I have to report all the money I am responsible for, and have supportive documentation...to the penny.

I was once off by a dollar, and had to pull out all the records to find out where I had made the mistake.
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« Reply #198 on: August 29, 2013, 12:07:31 PM »

Oh...and just to support my "KP" comment....why is it that almost none of the posters who have something to say in this thread, post anywhere else on the Forum?

No interest in Orthodoxy?

You don't even visit this Forum, unless it is to write something negative about the UOCofUSA.
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« Reply #199 on: August 29, 2013, 12:46:11 PM »

Moderators: A question. This thread is full of undocumented accusations, rumors and gossip. Serious accusations have been raised against hierarchy, clergy and laity. If false, their publication may be legally problematic. Is there not some rule regarding sourcing such matters? If not, perhaps there should be so that this fine website doesn't get dragged down into the sewers?

I know nothing about this matter, I have no horse in the race. But reputations take decades to establish and we, as orthodox Christians, ought not to be facilitators in tearing them down. Truth has a way of surfacing.

I've heard of odd situations where a church was in fact "owned" by a priest. Much heartache occurred in Allentown, Pa in the 1960s in just such a matter. Citations:  http://articles.mcall.com/1986-06-28/news/2518831_1_altar-st-andrew-church

http://pa.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.
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« Reply #200 on: August 29, 2013, 12:50:16 PM »

Independent of the Greeks and the Russians.

And the canons it seems.

I dont know if I like your tone... but how does one become cannonicaly recognized, tell me the requirements...

Paying 300 pieces of "sobol" skins to the Patriarch, who was deposed one year after for simony. That's how the Moscow Patriarchate became "canonical" and is "canonical" to this day - no?
No, it is canonical to this day, but it didn't happen that way-Pope Meletius Pegas refused any gifts,  and insisted on a full synod of the Patriarchs to approve the elevation of the Metropolitinate of Kiev and All Rus' to the Patriarchate of Moscow and All Rus'.  The Metropolitanate of Kiev was translated back to Constantinople at the time of Pat. Jeremia III's elevation of Moscow in Moscow.

The reference is to the translation back to Moscow, but is missleading: Patriarchs at the time were deposed quite regularly, and "simony" was the usual charge used to cover the deed.

Thanks Iamistry.  I was wondering about the 300 sable skins.  When I studied Russian & Ukrainian history I don't remember this being in any history.  Am I right or just forgetful.  So is this just an internet myth Heorhij posted in his reply in 2009?  Also can you provide a reference or outline the process of the recognition of the patriarch of Moscow?  All I vaguely remember is that the EP after many years recognised the MP as a fait acomplee and that in 1620 a new Metr. of Kyiv was consecrated or am I mistaken?  Can you fill in the gaps please.
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« Reply #201 on: August 29, 2013, 12:53:31 PM »

Moderators: A question. This thread is full of undocumented accusations, rumors and gossip. Serious accusations have been raised against hierarchy, clergy and laity. If false, their publication may be legally problematic. Is there not some rule regarding sourcing such matters? If not, perhaps there should be so that this fine website doesn't get dragged down into the sewers?

I know nothing about this matter, I have no horse in the race. But reputations take decades to establish and we, as orthodox Christians, ought not to be facilitators in tearing them down. Truth has a way of surfacing.

I've heard of odd situations where a church was in fact "owned" by a priest. Much heartache occurred in Allentown, Pa in the 1960s in just such a matter. Citations:  http://articles.mcall.com/1986-06-28/news/2518831_1_altar-st-andrew-church

http://pa.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.
Very well put.  I said before if anything illegal has happened call the police..  No doubt the statute of the UOC-USA & Bylaws are readily available & I really doubt a preist can claim title to a church building.  This is all gossip so maybe the moderators should look over the thread & maker a decision to close down the discussion.  This is not of spiritual benefit.
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« Reply #202 on: August 29, 2013, 01:08:06 PM »

Moderators: A question. This thread is full of undocumented accusations, rumors and gossip. Serious accusations have been raised against hierarchy, clergy and laity. If false, their publication may be legally problematic. Is there not some rule regarding sourcing such matters? If not, perhaps there should be so that this fine website doesn't get dragged down into the sewers?

I know nothing about this matter, I have no horse in the race. But reputations take decades to establish and we, as orthodox Christians, ought not to be facilitators in tearing them down. Truth has a way of surfacing.

I've heard of odd situations where a church was in fact "owned" by a priest. Much heartache occurred in Allentown, Pa in the 1960s in just such a matter. Citations:  http://articles.mcall.com/1986-06-28/news/2518831_1_altar-st-andrew-church

http://pa.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.
Very well put.  I said before if anything illegal has happened call the police..  No doubt the statute of the UOC-USA & Bylaws are readily available & I really doubt a preist can claim title to a church building.  This is all gossip so maybe the moderators should look over the thread & maker a decision to close down the discussion.  This is not of spiritual benefit.

(Historical note: many of the independently chartered Ukrainian, Carpatho-Rusyn(CRussian/Ruthenian) and OCA parishes are so chartered from the Greek Catholic period of the early 20th century, beginning with  the appointment of a common Administrator by Rome for American Ruthenian and Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the sending in 1907 of a non-ordinary Bishop, Soter Ortynsky , for both groups, his death in 1916 and the vacancy in the US which ended with the separation of the two groups by Rome in 1926. The chaos and cultural mistrust between the two similar ethnic groups led to the establishment of "indypyndy"(independent) congregations, many of which switched loyalties multiple times between the Unia and Orthodoxy through about 1950 or so. The historical wake of those muddy waters continues to cause mischief through the present. )
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« Reply #203 on: August 29, 2013, 01:26:49 PM »

Moderators:  The first comment in this thread is truly hearsay and false, and has been here for a few years now.  I think it is vital that Orthodox Christians are informed about news which is no where else to be found.  My posts as you will read, include the word accused, not convicted.  People have a right to know about financial horse play when it comes to their donations.  If you would like to confirm allegations, I can give you former board member names and phone numbers. Confirm with them the reports and comments.  I am sure they will agree that my posts contain the truth on these matters.

As all knowing as others come across in their posts and answers to my posts, they are assuming they know what is true and what is false.  By removing or deleting a thread, you put others in danger of not knowing and being duped.

Again, Please contact me and I will give you all the names, phone numbers and contacts you need to substantiate all postings....
 You ignored my official request sent to you in this message and via PM. As it been announced you are being warned for 99 days for sharing unsourced accusations. You are also being forbidden from repeating this unsourced accusations anywhere on the forum - MK
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« Reply #204 on: August 29, 2013, 01:31:25 PM »


As all knowing as others come across in their posts and answers to my posts, they are assuming they know what is true and what is false.  By removing or deleting a thread, you put others in danger of not knowing and being duped.


Who is deleting or removing threads?
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« Reply #205 on: August 29, 2013, 01:37:15 PM »

Moderators:  The first comment in this thread is truly hearsay and false, and has been here for a few years now. 

No it isn't, the Kievan Patriarchate is not Orthodox and is in schism with worldwide Orthodoxy, that's a fact.
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« Reply #206 on: August 29, 2013, 01:39:23 PM »

I really miss Starlight. One of my favourite posters over here.

Anyone knows is he OK?
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« Reply #207 on: August 29, 2013, 01:43:13 PM »

I really miss Starlight. One of my favourite posters over here.

Anyone knows is he OK?

Yes, I know who he is...and I believe he is doing okay.
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« Reply #208 on: August 29, 2013, 01:48:37 PM »

Board policy seems clear: "Criminal Accusations -- Original accusations of criminal conduct against individuals will not be made on the forum. By original, we mean accusations that are drawn from original research or from information collected from sources that are not peer-reviewed which contain original research. Examples would be a blog post without reference to legal proceedings or a news article that appears only on one or a few sites of undetermined accuracy (clarify this part up?). Determinations of appropriateness will be made by the section moderator.  If there is an ongoing, documented public criminal investigation about an individual already in process, and such a discussion is germane to the scope of this forum (for instance, an Orthodox individual is arrested for misconduct and there is a discussion about the facts of the case) then such discussion will be allowed within limit (at the discretion of the moderator of the section)."  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules

Is this discussion going beyond the rules, or is it not?

I ask this in public because the reputations of Bishops and Priests deserve as much. Heck if you don't call a non Orthodox bishop by a proper title, one would  be warned at a minimum. Surely accusing an Orthodox Bishop and priests of a criminal conspiracy is a far more serious matter than the misuse of honorifics?

« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 01:49:38 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #209 on: August 29, 2013, 02:04:22 PM »

I really miss Starlight. One of my favourite posters over here.

Anyone knows is he OK?

He is fine, I saw him a week or 2 ago.
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« Reply #210 on: August 29, 2013, 02:07:05 PM »


You actually SAW him? 

When you see him next, give him my best!!!!
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« Reply #211 on: August 29, 2013, 02:14:01 PM »

Thread closed pending mods' review.
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« Reply #212 on: September 09, 2013, 05:27:47 PM »

@Ukie:
In this thread you made several accusations against priests and hierarchs. The accusations you made are very serious therefore I am forced to ask you to prove that:

What's going on??? The president of the board of St. Volodymyr UOC in Chicago has recently quit due to the new priest going to the bank and trying to add his name to the bank accounts.... After Bishop Daniel supported this action the long-time member and parish president has quit.  Seems the root of all evil really is money...

1. The president resigned for the reasons you mentioned.
2. Bishop Daniel supported him.

Bishop Daniel did visit and it made things worse... The consistory and bishops actually can't do anything about it when it comes to the parish.  The parish is registered in the priest's name, the purchase of the property and outstanding bill are in the priest's name and that makes him the legitimate owner. The by-laws reconstructed by the priest to his liking are being considered valid by the bishop and consistory etc. They will kick out the "Dean". The parishioners asked for a new priest but the consistory can't assign a new priest to property which the priest owns...  

3. The dean will be "kicked out".

Did you not write this? You clearly you think the parishioners are to blame.  

And your comments about expecting this from a KP member are just absurd.  You have a very big chip on your shoulders, perhaps you need to pray so that it may be healed.

And as for the election comment, would it matter if the priest puts in a bunch of names of his confidants....

You are in la-la land.... keep drinking the UOC-USA Kool-Aid


So, who is to blame?  I think the parishioners, no?

Don't you have a yearly election?

Someone new should have been voted in.

4. The priest rigged the election.

You have 48 hours to prove these 4 accusations or publicly revoke and apologise for them. I don't have to say I won't accept something like "baba Luba told me" but I want actual reports from parish councils etc.

If you fail to provide proofs or to apologise you will receive an official 99-day warning. And if you keep repeating these accusations elsewhere on the forum without proving them here, further disciplinary actions will occur.
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« Reply #213 on: September 09, 2013, 05:30:50 PM »

LOL!

I love baba Luba!  Wink
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« Reply #214 on: September 09, 2013, 07:58:58 PM »

baba Luba told me that Ukie is probably not going to be back to defend his theories.  laugh
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« Reply #215 on: September 11, 2013, 02:24:42 PM »

baba Luba told me that Ukie is probably not going to be back to defend his theories.  laugh
I heard it on the BBC aka Baba Babi Skazala.
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« Reply #216 on: September 11, 2013, 03:23:45 PM »


 Cheesy ....it's the fastest media network out there.

Baba Babi Skazala means "the granny, told the granny".
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« Reply #217 on: September 11, 2013, 03:44:24 PM »

Old joke and not really funny.
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« Reply #218 on: September 11, 2013, 03:49:35 PM »


Where's the joke?

In my parish the BBC is still the fastest way to get news out.
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« Reply #219 on: September 11, 2013, 04:06:39 PM »


You actually SAW him? 

When you see him next, give him my best!!!!

I sure will, Liza.
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« Reply #220 on: September 11, 2013, 10:44:11 PM »


Where's the joke?

In my parish the BBC is still the fastest way to get news out.

I remember when hearing about something "online" meant over two babas' clotheslines ! Wink
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« Reply #221 on: September 11, 2013, 11:07:37 PM »


^LOL!  Good one!
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« Reply #222 on: October 17, 2013, 09:53:37 PM »

What's going on??? The president of the board of St. Volodymyr UOC in Chicago has recently quit due to the new priest going to the bank and trying to add his name to the bank accounts.... After Bishop Daniel supported this action the long-time member and parish president has quit.  Seems the root of all evil really is money...

Not true.  I am a member of this parish, and my husband is on the board.  The president did leave the board, but not for those reasons, and he did not leave the church.

On a side note, I would like to say directly to Ukie, that I am very disappointed in the slander that you are posting here.  Ukie, you and I know each other, and you are a better person than this. I hope you can put all this anger behind you.
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« Reply #223 on: October 17, 2013, 10:59:22 PM »

Thread locked, pending MY review

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