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Author Topic: Gorby supports Woytila's sainthood  (Read 2471 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 21, 2009, 05:19:00 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6047

Quote
21 May 2009, 17:47
Gorbachev agrees John Paul II should be declared as saint

Moscow, May 21, Interfax - Former USSR president Mikhail Gorbachev said he agrees that the former head of the Catholic Church John Paul II should be canonized.

"I think he should be. He was an amazing person. A humanist, I am ready to give him a thumbs up," Gorbachev told journalists on Thursday.
...

The entire article at the link above.
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2009, 07:01:16 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6047

Quote
21 May 2009, 17:47
Gorbachev agrees John Paul II should be declared as saint

Moscow, May 21, Interfax - Former USSR president Mikhail Gorbachev said he agrees that the former head of the Catholic Church John Paul II should be canonized.

"I think he should be. He was an amazing person. A humanist, I am ready to give him a thumbs up," Gorbachev told journalists on Thursday.
...

A humanist? A humanist is one who believes that all our problems can be solved soley be human effort, without divine intervention. I doubt that JPII believed that. (emphasis mine).



Just fixed a quote tag issue... -PtA
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 10:43:16 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2009, 09:08:09 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6047

Quote
21 May 2009, 17:47
Gorbachev agrees John Paul II should be declared as saint

Moscow, May 21, Interfax - Former USSR president Mikhail Gorbachev said he agrees that the former head of the Catholic Church John Paul II should be canonized.

"I think he should be. He was an amazing person. A humanist, I am ready to give him a thumbs up," Gorbachev told journalists on Thursday.
...

A humanist? A humanist is one who believes that all our problems can be solved soley be human effort, without divine intervention. I doubt that JPII believed that. (emphasis mine).

Gorby is the humanist.



Just fixed a quote tag issue...  -PtA
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2009, 10:19:18 PM »

Gorbachev is an atheist. Why would anyone care what his opinion is on this question?
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2009, 10:35:31 PM »

First and foremost, I highly respect the reposed great servant of God, Pope John Paul II. Having said that, I agree with the presented question:

Gorbachev is an atheist. Why would anyone care what his opinion is on this question?

On the same token, if an atheist would make a similar recommendation in regards to a deceased prominent Orthodox person, even a martyr, a similar reaction would be appropriate. But when a non-Orthodox Christian supports canonization of an Orthodox person on grounds, consistent with Orthodox theology and practice, then the recommendation should be taken into consideration.
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2009, 10:58:00 PM »

Gorbachev is an atheist. Why would anyone care what his opinion is on this question?

He is a politician who was dramatically impacted by the Papacy of John Paul II.  Why wouldn't his opinion at least be insightful into the impact of John Paul II?
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2009, 01:06:17 AM »

Hmm. Orthodox Christians caring about an atheist's nominating a Pope for sainthood.  Weird.
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2009, 02:38:07 AM »

John Paul II's appeal saved future Korean president from death sentence

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16073

Seoul, South Korea, May 21, 2009 / 08:45 pm (CNA).- A letter from Pope John Paul II asking for clemency helped save the life of a future South Korean president who was sentenced to death by a military tribunal in 1980, new information reveals.

Then-President Chun Doo-hwan had accused Thomas More Kim Dae-jung of inciting the pro-democracy Gwangju People’s Uprising on May 18, 1980, UCA News reports. The uprising was crushed by the military, resulting in an official toll of 191 dead and 852 injured. However, more than 1,000 may have actually died in the clashes. When Kim was sentenced to death on December 4, 1980, Pope John Paul II wrote to President Chun a week later seeking clemency.

Chun replied to the Pope on January 5, 1981, claiming that Kim had not been charged because of political issues but had committed “an anti-national crime including subversion.”

However, President Chun acknowledged the Pope’s appeal for clemency was “based on humanitarian consideration and compassion.”

Kim’s sentence was commuted to life imprisonment on January 23, 1981. In response, Pope John Paul II sent a February 1981 letter to President Chun saying “you courteously acknowledged the appeal I made on purely humanitarian grounds for an act of clemency in favor of Kim whose death sentence has recently been commuted."

"I pray God to watch over the noble Korean people and to bestow his richest favors on you all," the Pope wrote.

Kim’s sentence was reduced to 20 years and he was forced to go to the United States in 1982, UCA News reports. He later returned to Korea and was placed under house arrest, with his full legal rights being restored in 1987.

Kim won the December 1997 election and became president in February 1998, leaving office in 2003.

President Kim visited the Vatican in 2000. According to UCA News, he told Pope John Paul II “You saved my life, I am grateful.”

The president won the 2000 Nobel Peace Prize but was not officially cleared of the original charges against him until 2004.

The letters from Pope John Paul II and President Chun were revealed by the National Archives of Korea on May 18, 2009 at the request of the local daily newspaper of Gwangju, Kwangju Ilbo. The paper reportedly seeks details of the Gwangju People’s Uprising every year to help commemorate it.
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2009, 03:21:00 AM »

Gorbachev is an atheist. Why would anyone care what his opinion is on this question?

He is a politician who was dramatically impacted by the Papacy of John Paul II.  Why wouldn't his opinion at least be insightful into the impact of John Paul II?

Because the Pope beat him? Surely you jest. When he becomes a Christian of any flavor I might care about his opinion, but then it is an RC matter.
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2009, 08:47:39 AM »

Gorbachev is an atheist. Why would anyone care what his opinion is on this question?

Personally, I care about his opinion to the same extent I care about the subject he spoke. This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2009, 11:57:47 AM »

Gorbachev is an atheist. Why would anyone care what his opinion is on this question?

Actually, I think he has described himself in the past as a "natural theologian" where mother earth is his religion, whatever that means.

But, you're absolutely right.  He's not Christian, not even Catholic.  Why should the Catholics care what he thinks?  Sainthood is not a popularity contest.  If it were who knows what saints we would have today (St. Paris Hilton?)  Shocked

Why are Christians (of every confession) so concerned to do things that everyone will/should like? 
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2009, 12:24:47 PM »

(St. Paris Hilton?)  Shocked
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Shocked
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2009, 12:34:13 PM »

This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.

Gorbachev made a statement shortly after his visit to the tomb that he was not praying and remains an atheist.
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2009, 12:38:31 PM »

This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.

Gorbachev made a statement shortly after his visit to the tomb that he was not praying and remains an atheist.

Indeed he did. And he remains a communist. We all know how well Orthodoxy faired under those people.
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2009, 12:53:33 PM »

This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.

Gorbachev made a statement shortly after his visit to the tomb that he was not praying and remains an atheist.

Indeed he did. And he remains a communist. We all know how well Orthodoxy faired under those people.

Last I heard he was starting a new, pro-democracy party or dabbling in something of that sort these days.  Thus, I don't think he'd support the political suppression of religion these days. 
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2009, 01:11:32 PM »

This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.

Gorbachev made a statement shortly after his visit to the tomb that he was not praying and remains an atheist.

Indeed he did. And he remains a communist. We all know how well Orthodoxy faired under those people.

Last I heard he was starting a new, pro-democracy party or dabbling in something of that sort these days.  Thus, I don't think he'd support the political suppression of religion these days. 

Conjecture?
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2009, 01:18:30 PM »

This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.

Gorbachev made a statement shortly after his visit to the tomb that he was not praying and remains an atheist.

Indeed he did. And he remains a communist. We all know how well Orthodoxy faired under those people.

Last I heard he was starting a new, pro-democracy party or dabbling in something of that sort these days.  Thus, I don't think he'd support the political suppression of religion these days. 

Conjecture?

Well here you go: http://www.ndpr.alebedev.ru/home/

Where on the website does it say he is a communist or wishes to use political force to oppress religion?
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« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2009, 01:30:59 PM »

This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.

Gorbachev made a statement shortly after his visit to the tomb that he was not praying and remains an atheist.

Indeed he did. And he remains a communist. We all know how well Orthodoxy faired under those people.

Last I heard he was starting a new, pro-democracy party or dabbling in something of that sort these days.  Thus, I don't think he'd support the political suppression of religion these days. 

Conjecture?

Well here you go: http://www.ndpr.alebedev.ru/home/

Where on the website does it say he is a communist or wishes to use political force to oppress religion?

I aver that he is from his statements made to the media after his so-called pilgrimage when questioned about his "faith". You want to source those? Be my guest. I won't waste the time..
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2009, 01:40:42 PM »

Actually, didn't Gorbachev end religious persecution while he ruled the Soviet union?
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2009, 01:48:56 PM »

This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.

Gorbachev made a statement shortly after his visit to the tomb that he was not praying and remains an atheist.

Indeed he did. And he remains a communist. We all know how well Orthodoxy faired under those people.

Last I heard he was starting a new, pro-democracy party or dabbling in something of that sort these days.  Thus, I don't think he'd support the political suppression of religion these days. 

Conjecture?

Well here you go: http://www.ndpr.alebedev.ru/home/

Where on the website does it say he is a communist or wishes to use political force to oppress religion?

I aver that he is from his statements made to the media after his so-called pilgrimage when questioned about his "faith". You want to source those? Be my guest. I won't waste the time..


You are the one who said that he remains a communist with the implication that this would mean active persecution for Orthodox Christians.  It's quoted in this post.  I've posted a link that debunks your claim. 
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2009, 02:01:38 PM »

This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.

Gorbachev made a statement shortly after his visit to the tomb that he was not praying and remains an atheist.

Indeed he did. And he remains a communist. We all know how well Orthodoxy faired under those people.

Last I heard he was starting a new, pro-democracy party or dabbling in something of that sort these days.  Thus, I don't think he'd support the political suppression of religion these days. 

Conjecture?

Well here you go: http://www.ndpr.alebedev.ru/home/

Where on the website does it say he is a communist or wishes to use political force to oppress religion?

I aver that he is from his statements made to the media after his so-called pilgrimage when questioned about his "faith". You want to source those? Be my guest. I won't waste the time..


You are the one who said that he remains a communist with the implication that this would mean active persecution for Orthodox Christians.  It's quoted in this post.  I've posted a link that debunks your claim. 
You debunk nothing. He remains a communist, and an atheist one at that.
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2009, 02:18:25 PM »

This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.

Gorbachev made a statement shortly after his visit to the tomb that he was not praying and remains an atheist.

Indeed he did. And he remains a communist. We all know how well Orthodoxy faired under those people.

I agree.

Consequently, saying that Woytila's sainthood is supported by atheistic, unbelieving unbaptized persecutors of Christianity, wouldn't be far from truth?
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2009, 02:18:26 PM »

Actually, didn't Gorbachev end religious persecution while he ruled the Soviet union?

No, it was Stalin whom did that, if we stick with the meaning of the word "persecution".
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2009, 02:32:49 PM »

Do you realise that the Cold War is over and that the Communists didn't win?  Put up or shut up - show some proof that that Gorbachev is a Communist or retract your statement. 
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2009, 03:52:12 PM »

Actually, didn't Gorbachev end religious persecution while he ruled the Soviet union?

No, it was Stalin whom did that, if we stick with the meaning of the word "persecution".

Stalin ended it in WWII, but persecution continued when Khruschev came to power. Of course, intensity of persecution would vary from time time, but I'm pretty sure Gorbachev was the first to end all religious discrimination ever since Khruschev reestablished it.
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2009, 03:54:23 PM »

If he still is a Communist, I can't imagine him liking Karol Wojtyla, of all people.

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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2009, 03:57:47 PM »

Why should we care what Gorbachev thinks if he is a nonbeliever?

Because he is saying good things about a former ideological adversary. That requires forgiveness on his part. And foregiveness is a virtue that Our Lord espouses.  Smiley

Gorby may be a nonbeliever, but it's obvious by now that the Lord chose him as his instrument to dismantle the Godless Communist regime.

Let us pray for the man's conversion. He has wrought much good in the world - whether he meant to or not!  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2009, 04:02:04 PM »

Actually, didn't Gorbachev end religious persecution while he ruled the Soviet union?

No, it was Stalin whom did that, if we stick with the meaning of the word "persecution".

Stalin ended it in WWII, but persecution continued when Khruschev came to power. Of course, intensity of persecution would vary from time time, but I'm pretty sure Gorbachev was the first to end all religious discrimination ever since Khruschev reestablished it.

There is quite a difference between persecution and discrimination.
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2009, 04:05:40 PM »


...Let us pray for the man's conversion.

Umm, I'm spiritually too weak to do it. I leave it to much stronger than myself.
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2009, 05:24:21 PM »

Do you realise that the Cold War is over and that the Communists didn't win?  Put up or shut up - show some proof that that Gorbachev is a Communist or retract your statement. 
No retraction whatsoever.  Badger all you want. I know what I read. And I'll get to doing a search FOR You in my own sweet time.
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2009, 06:01:34 PM »

This article fits perfectly with his prayers at the tomb of Francis of Assisi.

Gorbachev made a statement shortly after his visit to the tomb that he was not praying and remains an atheist.

It is worth noting that Raisa Gorbachev was given a full Orthodox funeral, and is buried at the Novodyevichi Cemetery in Moscow.
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« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2009, 06:07:56 PM »

I really,really hope Gorbachev will become or is a believer! I would love to think of him as a brother. Maybe I'm just weird and sentimental, but I've always really liked him and hope the best for him!!
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2009, 06:42:06 PM »


It is worth noting that Raisa Gorbachev was given a full Orthodox funeral, and is buried at the Novodyevichi Cemetery in Moscow.
Meaning what?. Her husband is baptized Orthodox (as a child) and still an atheist (as he confirmed after visiting the tomb of Francis of Assisi).
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« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2009, 02:10:41 AM »

Another leader of that era (in this case, the Iron Lady, a Methodist Christian) pays homage to John Paul II.



Thatcher Meets Benedict

http://www.ncregister.com/daily/thatcher_meets_benedict/

Posted by Edward Pentin

Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:54 AM

Margaret Thatcher met Pope Benedict XVI at the end of his weekly general audience today.

The 83-year-old former British prime minister, who led the country from 1979 to 1990, had earlier in the day laid flowers at the tomb of John Paul II.

An Anglican, it was Baroness Thatcher’s second visit to the Vatican in less than two years, leading some to speculate whether she is thinking of joining the Church. During her previous trip, she also visited John Paul II’s tomb to pay her respects. According to those who were with her at that time, she made it clear in her characteristically loud voice that it was thanks to John Paul that Soviet communism was brought down.

Baroness Thatcher also met Paul VI back in June 1977.

Also at the end of today’s audience, the Pope met, among others,  NATO secretary general Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, students from Cuba, and ministers of justice from various countries visiting Rome for a Sant’Egidio conference on banning the death penalty.

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