Topic: Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox Share Celebration

[kelfar]

Link: http://www.georgiabulletin.org/local/2009/05/14/share/


Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox Share Celebration

STEPHEN O’KANE, Staff Writer

Published: May 14, 2009

ATLANTA—Greek Orthodox clergy dressed in long black vestments walked side by side with Roman Catholic priests in white cassocks in a visible sign of friendship as the two churches came together in prayer.

The “Evening of Prayer and Unity” service was held at the Cathedral of Christ the King on May 6 in honor of the Jubilee Year of St. Paul.

The prayer service blended together Eastern and Western traditions with song, prayer and words of wisdom from shepherds of each of the churches.

“Our Orthodox brothers and sisters represent a fraternity in the Lord that we cherish and long to strengthen in the Holy Spirit,” Atlanta Archbishop Wilton D. Gregory told those gathered.



Excerpt of article provided to make post of link compliant with forum policy...  -PtA

[Papist]

How wonderful!!!

[ialmisry]

Link: http://www.georgiabulletin.org/local/2009/05/14/share/

Now, isn't that special.

[HandmaidenofGod]

I attended this service and it was absolutely wonderful!! 

[Papist]

I attended this service and it was absolutely wonderful!! 

AWWW. Wish I could have witnessed this. This is the kind of thing that I am sure our lord is proud of.

[Anastasios]

I attended this service and it was absolutely wonderful!! 

AWWW. Wish I could have witnessed this. This is the kind of thing that I am sure our lord is proud of.

Which Lord would that be?

[Papist]

I attended this service and it was absolutely wonderful!! 

AWWW. Wish I could have witnessed this. This is the kind of thing that I am sure our lord is proud of.

Which Lord would that be?

Jesus. I know that this might be hard for you to understand but he loves Catholics too.

[Anastasios]

I attended this service and it was absolutely wonderful!! 

AWWW. Wish I could have witnessed this. This is the kind of thing that I am sure our lord is proud of.

Which Lord would that be?

Jesus. I know that this might be hard for you to understand but he loves Catholics too.

Oh, I know he loves Catholics. He also loves Muslims, Buddhists, and Atheists.

The question is whether he is happy about hierarchs violating the canons of their own Church. Somehow I don't think he would have inspired the Fathers to compose those canons only to support their violation later...

[HandmaidenofGod]

I attended this service and it was absolutely wonderful!! 

AWWW. Wish I could have witnessed this. This is the kind of thing that I am sure our lord is proud of.

Which Lord would that be?

Jesus. I know that this might be hard for you to understand but he loves Catholics too.

Oh, I know he loves Catholics. He also loves Muslims, Buddhists, and Atheists.

The question is whether he is happy about hierarchs violating the canons of their own Church. Somehow I don't think he would have inspired the Fathers to compose those canons only to support their violation later...

With all due respect Father, which part do you think upsets the Lord more? The division that exists, or the attempts to heal it? Also, weren't the canons written prior to 1054? I have also been told that a certain amount of oikonomia may be applied to the canons, and that they are more guidelines than rules. For example, isn't it against the canons for Christians to get piercings, yet women with pierced ears approach the chalice all the time.

The service was not a Eucharistic service. It was just a prayer service.

[The young fogey]

As is usual with these things the Orthodox followed the rules. The clergy didn't concelebrate, commune or even vest.

What strikes me is if these Romans really wanted to honour the Orthodox they wouldn't have come up with this well-meant condescending modern gobbledygook but had solemn Vespers with Gregorian chant, something authentically Roman, analogous to what the Orthodox do and an example that, in Orthodox terms, as St John of Shanghai and San Francisco said, Rome's 'venerable liturgy is older than its heresies'.

At that service the Orthodox clergy could do what historically they've done at such: sit happily in the choir stalls wearing their mantias, riassas and hats, not actively participating.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Mixed feelings.  Good and bad.

[Orual]

I attended this service and it was absolutely wonderful!! 

AWWW. Wish I could have witnessed this. This is the kind of thing that I am sure our lord is proud of.

Which Lord would that be?

Jesus. I know that this might be hard for you to understand but he loves Catholics too.

Oh, I know he loves Catholics. He also loves Muslims, Buddhists, and Atheists.

The question is whether he is happy about hierarchs violating the canons of their own Church. Somehow I don't think he would have inspired the Fathers to compose those canons only to support their violation later...

While I don't think that logic applies in the case of every canon, I agree with your sentiment.  We can have unity when Roman Catholics join the true faith.  Until then these "prayer and unity" things only serve to mislead the faithful into thinking you can't go wrong either way, they're pretty much the same, blah blah blah.  The RCC is not part of the Body of Christ.  They're not even a recently severed limb.  They have been developing and deepening their mistaken ideas for nearly a thousand years, and don't show any signs of a mass epiphany where they all decide to convert to Orthodoxy.  Events like this serve to perpetuate the heretical notion that the Orthodox Church and the RCC are somehow two halves of a whole, when in fact the Orthodox Church is the entire whole, without reference to the RCC.

[Fr. George]

With all due respect Father, which part do you think upsets the Lord more? The division that exists, or the attempts to heal it? Also, weren't the canons written prior to 1054? I have also been told that a certain amount of oikonomia may be applied to the canons, and that they are more guidelines than rules. For example, isn't it against the canons for Christians to get piercings, yet women with pierced ears approach the chalice all the time.

The service was not a Eucharistic service. It was just a prayer service. 

I'm not going to condemn what happened. 

However, we as Orthodox must be cautious not to imply that we condone the state of affairs as it is, and certainly do not condone the RC faith where it has diverged from the Orthodox Faith.  Such must be the balance struck by those who are asked to (dialogue, pray for, pray with, invite to their Churches, etc.) with the local RC clergy.

[Orthodox11]

How wonderful!!!

How unfortunate...

[Anastasios]

With all due respect Father, which part do you think upsets the Lord more? The division that exists, or the attempts to heal it? Also, weren't the canons written prior to 1054? I have also been told that a certain amount of oikonomia may be applied to the canons, and that they are more guidelines than rules. For example, isn't it against the canons for Christians to get piercings, yet women with pierced ears approach the chalice all the time.

The service was not a Eucharistic service. It was just a prayer service.

Dear Handmaiden,

I believe that the division that the entire Western patriarchate caused when it left the Church was one of the most traumatic things to ever happen to the Christian world.

I believe that these ecumenical events do nothing to "heal" that rift.  I used to be an ecumenist, went to ecumenical gatherings, took classes on ecumenism at seminary, etc.  I believe it is counter-productive, and gives the impression that individual Roman Catholics and others do not need to convert to Orthodoxy, since our Churches are "working on it at an official level."  So I think these events are as equally problematic as the division in the first place, because they avoid the reality of division.

There are different types of canons. There are disciplinary canons, and there are canons that have a dogmatic nature to them.  All canons, even the disciplinary ones, additionally reflect the underlying "canon" or rule of faith as well, so even those that are "no longer relevant in our modern world" reflect principles that are unchanging. In fact, the reason that there are canons against praying with heretics is to preserve the faithful--not because praying with a non-Orthodox person could "do anything" to an Orthodox per se. But the powerful impressions (which are carefully coordinated by the Masters of ceremony) which are given are damaging to the faithful, and to the heterodox that are not told to become Orthodox.

The distinction between Eucharistic and prayer service is not made in the canons dealing with this type of scenario.

[Orthodoc]

With all due respect Father, which part do you think upsets the Lord more? The division that exists, or the attempts to heal it? Also, weren't the canons written prior to 1054? I have also been told that a certain amount of oikonomia may be applied to the canons, and that they are more guidelines than rules. For example, isn't it against the canons for Christians to get piercings, yet women with pierced ears approach the chalice all the time.

The service was not a Eucharistic service. It was just a prayer service.

Dear Handmaiden,

I believe that the division that the entire Western patriarchate caused when it left the Church was one of the most traumatic things to ever happen to the Christian world.

I believe that these ecumenical events do nothing to "heal" that rift.  I used to be an ecumenist, went to ecumenical gatherings, took classes on ecumenism at seminary, etc.  I believe it is counter-productive, and gives the impression that individual Roman Catholics and others do not need to convert to Orthodoxy, since our Churches are "working on it at an official level."  So I think these events are as equally problematic as the division in the first place, because they avoid the reality of division.

There are different types of canons. There are disciplinary canons, and there are canons that have a dogmatic nature to them.  All canons, even the disciplinary ones, additionally reflect the underlying "canon" or rule of faith as well, so even those that are "no longer relevant in our modern world" reflect principles that are unchanging. In fact, the reason that there are canons against praying with heretics is to preserve the faithful--not because praying with a non-Orthodox person could "do anything" to an Orthodox per se. But the powerful impressions (which are carefully coordinated by the Masters of ceremony) which are given are damaging to the faithful, and to the heterodox that are not told to become Orthodox.

The distinction between Eucharistic and prayer service is not made in the canons dealing with this type of scenario.

Bravo Fr Anastasios!  You have come a long way in obtaining an Orthodox ethos since we first met!

Orthodoc


(I fixed a quote issue--Fr Anastasios)

[Tamara]

I don't view Roman Catholics and other Christians as the enemy but there are ways of being friendly and cooperative with Roman Catholics and other Christians that don't involve questionable joint prayer services. Politically we should be working hand-in-hand with Roman Catholics on pro-life and traditional family values. In those areas we have almost identical goals.
Last fall, my bishop, along with the other Orthodox bishops on the west coast, together issued a statement on Proposition 8 to the faithful, which concurred with the statement Roman Catholic bishops on the West Coast were telling their flock.

[Αριστοκλής]

I don't view Roman Catholics and other Christians as the enemy but there are ways of being friendly and cooperative with Roman Catholics and other Christians that don't involve questionable joint prayer services. Politically we should be working hand-in-hand with Roman Catholics on pro-life and traditional family values. In those areas we have almost identical goals.
Last fall, my bishop, along with the other Orthodox bishops on the west coast, together issued a statement on Proposition 8 to the faithful, which concurred with the statement Roman Catholic bishops on the West Coast were telling their flock.

Well spoken, Tamara.

[ChristusDominus]

I don't view Roman Catholics and other Christians as the enemy but there are ways of being friendly and cooperative with Roman Catholics and other Christians that don't involve questionable joint prayer services. Politically we should be working hand-in-hand with Roman Catholics on pro-life and traditional family values. In those areas we have almost identical goals.
Last fall, my bishop, along with the other Orthodox bishops on the west coast, together issued a statement on Proposition 8 to the faithful, which concurred with the statement Roman Catholic bishops on the West Coast were telling their flock.

is there an emoticon for " gimme five "?

[Tamara]

I don't view Roman Catholics and other Christians as the enemy but there are ways of being friendly and cooperative with Roman Catholics and other Christians that don't involve questionable joint prayer services. Politically we should be working hand-in-hand with Roman Catholics on pro-life and traditional family values. In those areas we have almost identical goals.
Last fall, my bishop, along with the other Orthodox bishops on the west coast, together issued a statement on Proposition 8 to the faithful, which concurred with the statement Roman Catholic bishops on the West Coast were telling their flock.

is there an emoticon for " gimme five "?

We have to work together dear brother/sister. We can love one another as we work together. 

[Irish Hermit]

http://www.coptreal.com/defaultEn.aspx

Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox Share Celebration

Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade but is it really appropriate for the Orthodox to be accepting blessings (see photograph) from those who
after all are heretics and what is worse the blessing on the Orthodox is being  given "faskeloma" !

[LBK]

There are different types of canons. There are disciplinary canons, and there are canons that have a dogmatic nature to them.  All canons, even the disciplinary ones, additionally reflect the underlying "canon" or rule of faith as well, so even those that are "no longer relevant in our modern world" reflect principles that are unchanging. In fact, the reason that there are canons against praying with heretics is to preserve the faithful--not because praying with a non-Orthodox person could "do anything" to an Orthodox per se. But the powerful impressions (which are carefully coordinated by the Masters of ceremony) which are given are damaging to the faithful.

Fr Anastasios, the essence of what you are saying is quite true. This is exactly the point I have tried to make on many occasions with regards to "iconography" or "innovations" in liturgical content which are not true to the canons and traditions of the Orthodox Church. Those who "know their onions" will not be swayed by heterodox exposure, but those who are not so well-grounded (in completely honest ignorance) in what Orthodoxy teaches and expresses are at risk of getting it wrong. Proper and diligent education is the best safeguard against this.

I don't view Roman Catholics and other Christians as the enemy but there are ways of being friendly and cooperative with Roman Catholics and other Christians that don't involve questionable joint prayer services.

Well said, Tamara.

[Papist]

http://www.coptreal.com/defaultEn.aspx

Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox Share Celebration

Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade but is it really appropriate for the Orthodox to be accepting blessings (see photograph) from those who
after all are heretics and what is worse the blessing on the Orthodox is being  given "faskeloma" !

Interesting.

[Irish Hermit]

http://www.coptreal.com/defaultEn.aspx

Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox Share Celebration

Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade but is it really appropriate for the Orthodox to be accepting blessings (see photograph) from those who
after all are heretics and what is worse the blessing on the Orthodox is being  given "faskeloma" !

Interesting.

Dear Papist,

In mixed company I usually avoid the term heretic because I know it has emotive connotations for such as Roman Catholics - they imagine underground torture chambers and the rack and the iron maiden and they smell the burning flesh at the auto-da-fes.  Not one of the greatest of periods in the history of the Dominican Order.   

The Orthodox, on the other hand, use the word much less emotionally, in the true meaning of someone who has separated himself from the Church by adhering to a false belief.  We also need to make the distinction between formal heresy and material heresy.

So when I use the word heretic it is very rare and it is used with this correct and precise meaning and with no intetntion to be derogatory.  That is how it is used in the above message.

[stashko]

[faskeloma]My dictionary britannica ,can't find the meaning for this word...

[lubeltri]

We also need to make the distinction between formal heresy and material heresy.

There you go again, borrowing our Latin distinctions. 

[lubeltri]

Surprised nobody mentioned this quote by Metropolitan Alexios:

“The thing that has separated us is not the faith,” he said, indicating that the reason was a political issue and a weak moment in the history of the two churches.

[SDMPNS]

I am not surprised by Met.Alexios doing this or by any foolishness he might have said. He is more and more out of touch with his people. I am probably bitter by his inability to intervene here in Pensacola but he did get some publicity by this.
I wonder what his fellow Metropolitans and the Archbishop will think about it or do they matter anymore since he is a Metropolitan.

[Irish Hermit]

Christ is Risen!

We also need to make the distinction between formal heresy and material heresy.

There you go again, borrowing our Latin distinctions. 

Faith and begorrah, Lubeltri, now why would we Orthodox be needing to borrow it from the Latins when we have had the distinction in the Church from the earliest days, long before the Roman Catholic Church was born...

For example, we can read the words of our holy Father Saint Cyprian of Carthage who lived and died in the 3rd century:

"For one who errs by simplicity may be pardoned, as the blessed Apostle Paul says of himself, “I who at first was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; yet I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly” [1 Tim. 1:13]. But after inspiration and revelation made to him, he who intelligently and knowingly perseveres in that course in which he had erred, sins without pardon for his ignorance. For he resists with a certain presumption and obstinacy, when he is overcome by reason.."
~Epistle LXXII

[SDMPNS]

about the "history" statement. I thought it was dogma which separated the two Churches. History has left some indelible unfortunate scars but it is dogma which separates us.
Maybe Metropolitan Alexios did not pay attention in seminary

[Papist]

about the "history" statement. I thought it was dogma which separated the two Churches. History has left some indelible unfortunate scars but it is dogma which separates us.
Maybe Metropolitan Alexios did not pay attention in seminary

I thought it was about a cardinal who acted like a child.

[Irish Hermit]

about the "history" statement. I thought it was dogma which separated the two Churches. History has left some indelible unfortunate scars but it is dogma which separates us.
Maybe Metropolitan Alexios did not pay attention in seminary

I thought it was about a cardinal who acted like a child.

AND the fututre Pope Stepen IX.    At that time he was Frederic of Lorraine, the Papal Exchequer and he was the other legate to Constantinople.  He signed the Bull with Cardinal Humbert.  When he became Pope Stephen a couple of years later he did nothing about rescinding the Bull nor removing his signature.  He allowed the Bull to stand.

[Elpidophoros]

Maybe Met.Alexios is a spy sent by schismatic old-calendarists into the canonical greek orthodox archdiocese.?
If so,all his actions can be explained logically...

[Anastasios]

Maybe Met.Alexios is a spy sent by schismatic old-calendarists into the canonical greek orthodox archdiocese.?
If so,all his actions can be explained logically...

That is actually pretty funny

I have heard that he actually was born an Old Calendarist. Can anyone confirm/deny? If not maybe I will just ask him the next time I run in to him.

[Fr. George]

Maybe Met.Alexios is a spy sent by schismatic old-calendarists into the canonical greek orthodox archdiocese.?
If so,all his actions can be explained logically...

That is actually pretty funny

I have heard that he actually was born an Old Calendarist.

Being able to read a calendar at birth would be a pretty neat trick!

[ChristusDominus]

Christ is Risen!

We also need to make the distinction between formal heresy and material heresy.

There you go again, borrowing our Latin distinctions. 

Faith and begorrah, Lubeltri, now why would we Orthodox be needing to borrow it from the Latins when we have had the distinction in the Church from the earliest days, long before the Roman Catholic Church was born...

Can you please tell me when the Roman Catholic Church was indeed "born" ? As far as I know, it was founded by Saint Peter, the first Bishop of Rome.


[

[JoeS2]

How wonderful!!!

There are many areas of agreement especially contemplating the modern world.  Both churches can and do many joint ventures when it comes to defending the rights of Christians throughout the world.  Hunger, war, attacks against the church, spreading the gospel are only a part of our efforts to make the world a better place to live.  It can be a good starting place for reconciliation, ie serious reconciliation between churches.