Author Topic: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland  (Read 10766 times)

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Offline mike

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PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« on: May 15, 2009, 04:00:06 AM »
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On May 8, the Primate of the Autonomous Orthodox Church of Finland of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, Archbishop Leo of Karelia and All Finland arrived on official visit to Ukraine.

Accompanying Vladyka Leo in the trip are Vicar of the Diocese of Karelia, Bishop Arseny of Joensuu and other members of the delegation.   

Upon arrival to the capital of Ukraine Metropolitan Leo headed to the Holy Dormition Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra, where he met with the Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church at the Metropolitan's residence.   

Also the Primate of the Orthodox Church of Finland prayed at the home St. Nicholas Church at the Metropolitan's apartments.   

Thereafter the Primates honoured memory of the deceased in the years of the Great Patriotic War in the Kyiv park of Eternal Glory.

The visit of Archbishopn Leo of Karelia and All Finland will continue from May, 8 till  May, 14.

The visit program:

May, 9 - visit to the Church of All Saints in the territory of the construction site of the Resurrection Cathedral and serving the Moleben (prayer service) at the relics of the  Holy Hierarch Spyridon of Tremithous, visit to the Holy Protection Convent in Kyiv and celebration of the All-Night Vigil in the Kyiv Caves Monastery.

May 10 - Archbishop Leo of Karelia and All Finland together with Metropolitan Volodymyr will celebrate the Divine Liturgy at the Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra and visit the Holy Presentation Monastery, the Monastery of St. Panteleimon (Feofania), the Holy Trinity Monastery (Kytaevo) in Kyiv.

May 11-12 - the visit to the Diocese of Simferopol.  Visits to the Holy Trinity Monastery of Simferopol, the Monastery of St. Clement in Inkerman, the Holy Dormition Bakhchisarai Monastery, the Cathedral of S. Vladimir in Chersonesos and the Panorama of the Defence of Sebastopol, visits to Balaklava and Yalta.   

May 13 - the meeting with the President of Ukraine is scheduled.

May 14 - attendance of the Caves of Lavra, meeting with the Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

The same day the delegation of the Orthodox Church of Finland returns home.

source
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2009, 05:28:40 AM »
Interesting that he is in Ukraine and not Russia/Moscow.  Anything to do (since he is here identified as under Constantinople, although he has been removed from the EP's website) with next month?
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Offline Michał

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2009, 05:33:11 AM »
. . .he is here identified as under Constantinople, although he has been removed from the EP's website. . .

What was the reason for that?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2009, 05:39:07 AM »
. . .he is here identified as under Constantinople, although he has been removed from the EP's website. . .

What was the reason for that?

Good question.  I haven't a clue (well, I have ideas: one is the warm welcome he gave Met. Jonah).  I don't know when it happened.  The past months I've had opportunity to go on the EP's website, and I just noticed Arb. Leo wasn't there (unlike the other possessions of the EP) and I could swear he had been.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2009, 05:54:31 AM »
I do not see how this topic's title and the articles posted are related.

And I see Isa wishes to hijack yet another thread with his anti-EP jihad.
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Offline mike

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2009, 05:58:11 AM »
I do not see how this topic's title and the articles posted are related.

That despite some articles recently posted on the forum about bad relations between CoF and MP they get along well.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2009, 06:36:26 AM »
I do not see how this topic's title and the articles posted are related.

That despite some articles recently posted on the forum about bad relations between CoF and MP they get along well.

Well, at least these two autonomous churches of the EP and MP respectively.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2009, 06:47:19 AM »
I do not see how this topic's title and the articles posted are related.

And I see Isa wishes to hijack yet another thread with his anti-EP jihad.

Can you explain why Finland isn't here anymore?
Quote
Other Dioceses of the Throne around the world



Holy Archdiocese of America
Holy Archdiocese of Australia
Holy Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain
Holy Metropolis of France
Holy Metropolis of Germany
Holy Metropolis of Austria
Holy Metropolis of Sweden and all Skandinavia
Holy Metropolis of Belgium
Holy Metropolis of New Zealand
Holy Metropolis of Swiss
Holy Metropolis of Italy and Malta
Holy Metropolis of Toronto
Holy Metropolis of Buenos Aires
Holy Metropolis of Mexico
Holy Metropolis of Hong Kong
Holy Metropolis of Spain and Portugal
Holy Metropolis of Korea
Patriarchal Exarchy of Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe
 
http://www.ec-patr.org/dioceses.php?lang=en&id=86

I do notice that Estonia isn't there either, although the EP claims jursidiction against Moscow.  But I don't know if Estonia was ever listed on the site.
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Offline mike

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2009, 06:51:48 AM »
They all are listed here. Autonomous and Autocephalous Churches separated from normal dioceses.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 06:53:17 AM by mike »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2009, 07:14:13 AM »
They all are listed here. Autonomous and Autocephalous Churches separated from normal dioceses.
Interesting.  Btw, Arb. Leo's predecessor Arbp. John is in the list of hierarchy of the Throne "John of Nicea."

I could swear that the Arb. of Finland was listed, but can admit that this might be the listing I remember seeing.  If so, then I apologize to the EP and his supporters here.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 07:23:06 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline Jake

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2009, 10:50:32 AM »
I have noticed a lot of rumour and innuendo against the Finnish Orthodox Church on the internet recently.  Most of the claims of wrongdoing are unsubstantiated.  I can't help but wonder what is behind all this internet activity to discredit the Finnish Orthodox Church in the eyes of world Orthodoxy or maybe American Orthodoxy.

There are historical/ polical difficultties behind the Russian orthodox Church and the Finnish Orthodox Church.  The MP has always resented the fact that after Finland gained political freedom from Russia after the Russian Revolution, the Orthodox Church in Finland chose to adopt Finnish as a liturgical language and attach itself to the EP.  Also there are linguistic ties between Estonian and Finland since bother their languages belong to the Finno-Ugric branch rather than Slavonic like Russia.  Both countries were historically oppresed by Russia.  In the inter-war period the Estonian orthodox Church also sought union with the EP and divirced itself from the MP.
After the fall of communism in 1991, the Estonian Orthodox again chose to return to the EP.  In the early days before the Estonians had their own hierarchs, the Finns gave a helping hand. This is still contested by the MP.

Now the MP is attempting to expand into Finland:

Quote
Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland

 
 
The Orthodox Church of Russia plans to widen its activities in Finland. Aleksei II, the Patriarch of Moscow, told the Finnish Broadcasting Company YLE's TV-news on Friday that the Orthodox Church has to take care of the spiritual needs of Russians living in Finland, and to give them an opportunity to attend services that are held in Church Slavonic.
      The Orthodox Church of Finland belongs to the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople - not to the Patriarchate of Moscow.
      The current head of Finland's Orthodox Church, Archbishop Leo, commented on the news to Helsingin Sanomat on Friday evening by saying that the Patriarch of Moscow has promised him he would honour the autonomous canonical status of the Orthodox Church of Finland.
      "I do not believe that Aleksei would have spoken so abruptly", the Archbishop noted.
     
He stressed that Church Slavonic is already being used in the services of Finnish Orthodox parishes.
      A large number of Russian immigrants have joined the Orthodox Church of Finland. "We are doing our best to serve all immigrants and to offer them a spiritual home", Archibishop Leo concluded.


Links:
  Orthodox Church of Finland (Virtual Finland)

Helsingin Sanomat
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/1101980692715

Of course if the MP can discredit the Finnish Orthodox Church by false rumour and innuendo, it can justify its actions in Finland.

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2009, 11:41:14 AM »
I can't help but wonder what is behind all this internet activity to discredit the Finnish Orthodox Church in the eyes of world Orthodoxy or maybe American Orthodoxy.

For my part, my dissatisfaction with the Finnish Orthodox Church comes from traveling most of the year and seeing how different all other jurisdictions are. There really is something wrong here, Finland is adopting the "let's be 'tolerant' and not upset people by talking about moral standards" atmosphere I remember from spending time in Anglican and Episcopalian parishes when I was younger. I just wish more people would visit and attend a few liturgies at Uspensky. My desire for greater attention from the outside certainly not some kind of shady Russian nationalism (in fact, my work involves protecting Finno-Ugrian minorities in Russia).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 11:50:28 AM by CRCulver »

Offline AMM

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2009, 12:51:59 PM »
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If so, then I apologize to the EP and his supporters here.

You should never apologize to supporters of this demonic overlord.  They need to be chastised, and secretly they like it.

Offline Jake

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2009, 03:18:09 PM »
I find the title of this thread very odd.

The Orthodox Church of Finland has not been condemned by any other Orthodox Church.

Indeed the from the article posted, it seems like the head of the Orthodox CHurch of Finland, Metropolitan Leo was welcomed by the Orthodox Church of Ukraine under the Moscow Patriarchate.

There is no problem.

Offline Theoprovlitos

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2009, 05:22:15 PM »
It takes a lot before the relations between the two churches break. Besides because of the linguistic isolation of Finland other Churches CANNOT know what is going on unless someone brings those evidences to the public.

Recenty many Finnish Orthodox are wrting letters to the MP so that they start a diocese in Finland as well transaltions in Russian with all that heretical stuff that is going on there.

The EP has also been informed a year a go as well as 5 days ago. I am not sure if I am allowed to make public the words of higher officials of some Churches who have been informed about the situation in Finland.

I am sick and tired of hearing that "there are not enough evidences". How about the official "Orthodox" magazine Aamun Koitto? You remind me of the bible quote that if if somenoe rose from the dead you wouldn't belive him.

This is NOT question of the MP. On the contrary the MP receives the attention of those Finnish faithful who are deeply disappointed by the situation in the Finnish Church. The EP has been worned but they are partly unable to react because the Finnish Church is autocephalus and also because the EP cannot know what exactly is going on because of the Finnish language. Have you ever thought that the EP would LIKE that this problem gains publicity so that it would have the reason and motivation to interfere because of protests while if it inteferes just like that it would appear uncanonical?

I don't understand how people keep insisting that there is nothing worng about a church they know very little about (or they simply share the same mindset and they do not want to admit it) while people who are there or belong there and it is obvious that they know from all these details that they know protest and present elements and links which for some strange reason are always insufficient no matter what.

Offline Aristobolus

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2009, 08:18:55 PM »
PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland...YET

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2009, 08:33:05 PM »
What would the Finnish Orthodox Church do if the rest of Orthodoxy broke communion with them?  Would they repent?

Offline Aristobolus

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2009, 08:38:33 PM »
That would be the only reason to break communion, namely to win back those in persistent error.  Possibly the reason why we have not seen anything "immediately" happen is that the Holy Patriarchs are attempting in love to speak to their Brother.  This can take time, and we trust that they will know what is best in dealing with the Beloved Orthodox Church in Finland.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2009, 09:38:24 PM »
Quote
If so, then I apologize to the EP and his supporters here.

You should never apologize to supporters of this demonic overlord.  They need to be chastised, and secretly they like it.

Uh, I'll take your word for it.

TMI.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2009, 10:21:20 PM »
I have noticed a lot of rumour and innuendo against the Finnish Orthodox Church on the internet recently.  Most of the claims of wrongdoing are unsubstantiated.  I can't help but wonder what is behind all this internet activity to discredit the Finnish Orthodox Church in the eyes of world Orthodoxy or maybe American Orthodoxy.

There are historical/ polical difficultties behind the Russian orthodox Church and the Finnish Orthodox Church.  The MP has always resented the fact that after Finland gained political freedom from Russia after the Russian Revolution, the Orthodox Church in Finland chose to adopt Finnish as a liturgical language

Actually, Finnish became the offiical language of Finnland only under the Czar, and Finnish culture was only promoted at the same time.  The King of Sweden never did, and Swedish had remained the language of government, and Swedish continued to dominate until the Grand Duchy was Fennicized.

Quote
and attach itself to the EP.  Also there are linguistic ties between Estonian and Finland since bother their languages belong to the Finno-Ugric branch rather than Slavonic like Russia.  Both countries were historically oppresed by Russia.

Both countries were oppressed far more far longer by Sweden, (btw, I'm part Swedish), Denmark and German states, Germanic speakers all.

Quote
  In the inter-war period the Estonian orthodox Church also sought union with the EP and divirced itself from the MP.
After the fall of communism in 1991, the Estonian Orthodox again chose to return to the EP. 

No, a schismatic group in league with the then non-Orthodox/nominal Lutheran Estonian government chose to invite gain cover for themselves by the EP, and his Greek bishop from the Congo.  The majority of the Orthodox Faithful in Estonia chose to stay with the Estonian born, bred, baptized and ordained Pat. Alexei and his Estonian born, bred, baptized and ordained Met. Cornelius.

Quote
In the early days before the Estonians had their own hierarchs, the Finns gave a helping hand. This is still contested by the MP.

In other words, unlike the EP's interference in Poland and the Czech and Slovak lands, the interference on the Baltic was never resolved.

Quote
Now the MP is attempting to expand into Finland:

If it was never resolved.....

Quote
Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland

 
 
The Orthodox Church of Russia plans to widen its activities in Finland. Aleksei II, the Patriarch of Moscow, told the Finnish Broadcasting Company YLE's TV-news on Friday that the Orthodox Church has to take care of the spiritual needs of Russians living in Finland, and to give them an opportunity to attend services that are held in Church Slavonic.
      The Orthodox Church of Finland belongs to the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople - not to the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Yeah, like Estonia.


 
Quote
     The current head of Finland's Orthodox Church, Archbishop Leo, commented on the news to Helsingin Sanomat on Friday evening by saying that the Patriarch of Moscow has promised him he would honour the autonomous canonical status of the Orthodox Church of Finland.
      "I do not believe that Aleksei would have spoken so abruptly", the Archbishop noted.


It does seem odd, as Arb. Leo and Met. Jonah seem to get along quite well.
     
Quote
He stressed that Church Slavonic is already being used in the services of Finnish Orthodox parishes.

This is true, at least it was in Upenskiy in the 80's.
 
   
Quote
Quote
A large number of Russian immigrants have joined the Orthodox Church of Finland. "We are doing our best to serve all immigrants and to offer them a spiritual home", Archibishop Leo concluded.


Links:
  Orthodox Church of Finland (Virtual Finland)

Helsingin Sanomat
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/1101980692715

Of course if the MP can discredit the Finnish Orthodox Church by false rumour and innuendo, it can justify its actions in Finland.

If any of the things here being said are true, it would be in the same line as the tough love that the MP has shown the European Union.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2009, 12:45:54 AM »
Of course if the MP can discredit the Finnish Orthodox Church by false rumour and innuendo, it can justify its actions in Finland.

An insidious implication on your part!  So we could stand to reason that you might be seeking to spread "false rumors" about Moscow's intentions in Finland?

If Moscow made such a move, they would have to prove something to the effect of the hierarchs openly approving of homosexuality and blessing homosexual unions in their churches.  That's a pretty tall order, but if they can fill it, then they would be justified in providing a fitting place for the Finnish faithful to worship in.

Offline Theoprovlitos

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2009, 04:47:12 AM »
Forgive me, but it is rediculous to claima that "someone" or even worse the MP "wants to discredit the Finnish Church in the eyes of American Orthodoxy". The Finnish "Orthodox" church discredits itself with the protestant theology and immorality that it is being introduced to it with dozens of texts, buplications and internet links written by THEM and not by some spy.

I personally am Greek with a Finnish wife and children living in Greece and before this catastrophy of the church of FInland that instead of becomeing the salt that would prevent the world of rottening it has so much incorporated the worldy new age "humanistic" spirit of a "Rainbow New Age Christ" who is only "good" that I find the MP as a SOLUTION and not as a preference. I have openly expressed this to my letter to the Archimandrite of the EP Elpidoforos Lambriniadis with all the reasons why as well as presenting him documents.

The Finnish Orthodox Church is NOT Orthodox it only keeps an Orthodox typico and it has Apostolic succession.

On the Estonian issue I know it TERRIBLY well and I am one of those people who openly made a struggle so that it would gain its independence from the MP. There are (were) so many reasons and there have been at least 2 books written on the issue one by the Estonian priest Fr Meletius Ulm and one by Fr Gregory (forget his name) assistant to bishop Stefanos whom I happen to know from the time he was a bishop in Cannes in France and not in Congo. He was only Congo-born French speaking Greek and he was transfered to Estonia to put an order in the mess the MP has created during the Communist times.

I have visited Estonian parishes in 1991 (still Soviet Union) and since then at least 3 more times and traveled around Orthodox parishes. I have dozens of slides to present what did the Russians did to the Estonian Orthodox during communism. Before Communism the Orthodox CHurch of Estonia consisted ostly of Estonians and less by Russians while now it is the opposite.

During Communism the Estonian spekaing parishes were merged in one, by closing down several parishes so that people would have to travel for kimometers for services. Other Estonain Churches were abandoned to time and this was obvious when you saw in ehat good shape were the Russian speaking Churches while the Estonian churches were falling apart.

As a result the Estonian Orthodox abandoned Orthodoxy and became Lutheran or atheist or submited themeselves to the Russian bishop and clergy. The plan was to de-estonize the Orthodox Church and make it a Russian thing so that Estonians wouln't have a word in the Church.

It is characteristic that when I visted in 1998 a big town and we were asking local people directions to the Orthodox CHurch they replied "We don't know where that is". But when we switched the question about "where the RUSSIAN  church is they went "Aaah! yes just take that way".

To the people of Estonia the Orthodox Church was a symbol of oppression and a Russian thing. To get an idea what Orthodoxy was in Estonia before, the First Archbishop of FInland was ESTONIAN, so it is the Estonain Church that helped the Finnish church rather than the opposite.

After the collapse of the USSR lists of which of the priests were members of the KGB came out of the drawers. Estonian Orthodox would see that their priests were people of their tyrants. How could they show respect. So they send many letters to the EP to become independent just like before WWII.

THe EP finally accepted the calls becasue there was a serious problem. During the First years the then Archbishop of Finland John was supervising the church and in that time we have cooperated becasue they were sending over to Greece Finnish Orthodox students to study theology with scolarships and I was assisting them. For a while they have placed an old widower as Estonian Archbishop and in the end the EP brought Stefanos from France to deal with the mess living in danger with the Russian mafia threatening him to bomb his house because among other things the Russian mafia used the Russian parishes as laundry of black money in the form of "Charities".

Also the Estonian parishes were so much abandoned by Cornelius that in the Estonian cathedral Suurkloostri the local priest instead of preaching Orthodoxy was peaching the theosophical teachings of Bo Yin Ra.

Unfortunately the Russians had to pay for their Imperialism and Nationalism. To get an idea, have you ever heard about "Latvian Orthodox Church"? No it disappeared! A few who were left have approached the Estonain bishop Stefanos so that he would be in charge of the "ruins" of the Latvian Orthodox Church but Stefanos refused becasue he didn't want more troubles with the Russians.

ANd once this is clear that I am surely agaisnt the Russian Chruch on the Estonain issue for the sake of facts and Truth in the very same way I am now agaisnt the Finnish Orthodox Church as it has BECOME within the last few years and I see as the only silutions that

a) It's authonomy should be seized and Finnish Orthodox should go direclty under the EP
b) Or the MP should start a jursidiction in Finland and I can be sure that hte real Orthodox would go there while in the Finnish "Orthodoxy" will remain all the ecumenists, the gays, the nationalists or the people who have so poorly catechised hat they do not really KNOW what Orthodoxy is.

Offline Robert W

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2009, 06:15:09 AM »
??? Two bishops meet and they do not condemn each other ??? Is this news?  ;D
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 06:15:44 AM by Robert W »

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2009, 06:26:54 AM »
??? Two bishops meet and they do not condemn each other ??? Is this news?  ;D

That got a good laugh out of me.  :D

Offline ialmisry

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2009, 07:05:22 AM »
On the Estonian issue I know it TERRIBLY well and I am one of those people who openly made a struggle so that it would gain its independence from the MP. There are (were) so many reasons and there have been at least 2 books written on the issue one by the Estonian priest Fr Meletius Ulm and one by Fr Gregory (forget his name) assistant to bishop Stefanos whom I happen to know from the time he was a bishop in Cannes in France and not in Congo. He was only Congo-born French speaking Greek and he was transfered to Estonia to put an order in the mess the MP has created during the Communist times...

Since you know so much about the situation, can you tell us from your angle the part the Estonian government played in this?

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Unfortunately the Russians had to pay for their Imperialism and Nationalism. To get an idea, have you ever heard about "Latvian Orthodox Church"? No it disappeared! A few who were left have approached the Estonain bishop Stefanos so that he would be in charge of the "ruins" of the Latvian Orthodox Church but Stefanos refused becasue he didn't want more troubles with the Russians.

LOL.  No, it hasn't disappeared:
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Popular culture
The Church plays a major role in "The Conversion" episode of the popular television sitcom Seinfeld, in which the character George Costanza converts to Latvian Orthodoxy in order to have his ex-girlfriend's Latvian Orthodox parents allow a relationship between the two. However, she leaves on a trip to Latvia after he converts. The writer of the episode, Bruce Kirschbaum, revealed later that he was unaware that the religion actually existed while writing the episode. His original intention was to have a fictitious religion.[2] Indeed, while appearing Eastern Orthodox to the casual observer, much of the attire and ritual is actually more western in style. Furthermore, the word "kavorka," which in the episode was used to describe Kramer's attractiveness as "the lure of the animal," is not a real Latvian word. Nevertheless, Kirschbaum received many letters from the church thanking him for bringing attention to the religion, despite his fear upon learning that it was a real religion that its practitioners would resent the episode.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Orthodox_Church

Btw, the primate of Lativia before the Nazi invasion ended up as Bp. John of Chicago (OCA), of blessed memory.  His adopted son, the now retired priest Fr. Sergei Glarklavs still has his staff as bishop of Riga and All Lativia.  His son, Bp John's grandson, is Fr. Alexander, the OCA's chancellor.


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a) It's authonomy should be seized and Finnish Orthodox should go direclty under the EP

And what would that solve?

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b) Or the MP should start a jursidiction in Finland and I can be sure that hte real Orthodox would go there while in the Finnish "Orthodoxy" will remain all the ecumenists, the gays, the nationalists or the people who have so poorly catechised hat they do not really KNOW what Orthodoxy is.

Why shouldn't the MP replace the EP?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 07:10:53 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2009, 07:55:02 AM »
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Why shouldn't the MP replace the EP?

Indeed. Only reason I can think of is that to continue under Constantinople will continue to irk you.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 07:55:26 AM by Αριστοκλής »
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Robert W

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2009, 08:23:47 AM »
Why shouldn't the MP replace the EP?

I could try to answer that question, but the answer would be long.

Are you really interested?

Offline Theoprovlitos

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2009, 08:27:47 AM »
Since you know so much about the situation, can you tell us from your angle the part the Estonian government played in this?

Btw, the primate of Lativia before the Nazi invasion ended up as Bp. John of Chicago (OCA), of blessed memory.  His adopted son, the now retired priest Fr. Sergei Glarklavs still has his staff as bishop of Riga and All Lativia.  His son, Bp John's grandson, is Fr. Alexander, the OCA's chancellor.

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a) It's authonomy should be seized and Finnish Orthodox should go direclty under the EP

And what would that solve?

Why shouldn't the MP replace the EP?


The Estonian governement had to deal with two important issues

1: If it it would recognize as Estonian Orthodox its own Estonain citizens who protest and ask for religious freedom or their conquerers who also happen to be a constant threat and whose seat is even outside the borders and hwo have also been part of the Russian oppression sytem

2: If it was going to hand Estonian Orthodox property to the Church that seized it after Estonia was enslaved in 1944 while before it belonged to the independent Estonian Church and practically havin a hostile foreign power own property and claims over Estonian grounds.

So to me there was no doubt that there was no other choice than to recognize the Estonian Orthodox CHurch and not the Diocese of the Moscow Patriarchate.

Well no matter if someone holds the seat of "Bishop of Riga" no matter if his title is canonical his hcurch is not regognized by any other church in the world.

Taking the Finnish Church directly under the EP would solve the problem where the church now consists almost exclusively of converts or Orthodox born but with extremely tolerant orthodox awareness. People there THINK they know what Orthodoxy is and they gradually introduced to it New Era ideas or protestant dogmas. It is not only these scandals I am refering to. If you read their recent Orthodox religion schoolbook it contains several fallacies and NOBODY corrected them. A blind man leading another. Linguistic isolation is also a very important factor. Lackof spiritual fathers from other countries is also a negative thing becasue those who convert have a WRONG idea about what orthodoxy is. THANK GOD there are now some Russain immigrants (and very few others) to prevent total corruption.

If the Ecumenical Patriarchate would be able to interfere or even have at least one bishop in the  Finnish Synod things would be much better than they are.


Despite the Russian backgound of the Finnish church the mentality of the Fins and the society is much more liberal and tolerant. Greek Orthodoxy suits Finns bettter than Russians who are pretty strict.

At this moment this strictness IS necessary because the Finnish CHurch is currently uncontrolable. And if the EP cannot find a solution it is the PEOPLE who will bring the MP in and NOT the opposite. And they would be absolutely right to do so.

In any case my point and my creteria are EXCLUSIVELY spiritual and not political. I mean in Estonia the Russians had to pay for their crimes against the peoples they were controlling while in the case of Finland it seems to me that a good solution (if not the best one) would be to start a Russian Diocese in Finland so that the wheat will be separated from the chaff. And let the people of Sodom and Gommorah enjoy their lust and worhsip Baal while they think they are worshipping Christ in a declining society that would make Romans freak out!

I am not saying that corruption is a characteristic exclusively of the Finns. Not at all. Maybe the Greeks and the Russians are more rotten. BUT at least we -still- have the Church of Christ to help us resist, while in the case of the Finnish Church it is even its Church leaders who push people into sinning decharacterizing sins one by one as such.

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2009, 09:27:41 AM »
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And let the people of Sodom and Gommorah enjoy their lust and worhsip Baal while they think they are worshipping Christ in a declining society that would make Romans freak out!

I am not saying that corruption is a characteristic exclusively of the Finns. Not at all. Maybe the Greeks and the Russians are more rotten.
::)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2009, 09:56:00 AM »
Why shouldn't the MP replace the EP?

I could try to answer that question, but the answer would be long.

Are you really interested?

Yes.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2013, 11:28:43 AM »
Why shouldn't the MP replace the EP?

I could try to answer that question, but the answer would be long.

Are you really interested?

Yes.
Btw, I'm still interested.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alpo

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2013, 12:05:34 PM »
Why shouldn't the MP replace the EP?

I could try to answer that question, but the answer would be long.

Are you really interested?

Yes.
Btw, I'm still interested.

May Lord spare us from ecclesiastical politics. Why to fix something that isn't broken?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2013, 01:15:06 PM »
^ Rumor has it that we Orthodox invented the circular firing squad formation....

Offline Alpo

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Re: PM's Hierarchs do not codemn Church of Finland
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2013, 01:21:20 PM »
^ Rumor has it that we Orthodox invented the circular firing squad formation....

ROFL
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!