Author Topic: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful  (Read 15258 times)

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Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #180 on: May 04, 2009, 10:23:35 PM »
One of the things frightening me about those on this thread who defend waterboarding, painful coercion, etc. while refusing to call it torture, is the fine line they are walking in inadvertently creating an argument for its usefulness on US citizens. If it's not torture, then it's not cruel or unusual, is it? If that's the case, then do you take issue with waterboarding in cases of getting low level drug dealing US CITIZENS to give up their suppliers, or suspected child rapists to reveal the bodies of their victims?  If not, why not? It's for the greater good, isn't it?  
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #181 on: May 04, 2009, 10:24:15 PM »
By the time you get here this summer you'll be entirely indistinguishable from an American.  
I am already indistinguishable from an American, and so are people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and so are people everywhere. We are all one race- the human race. We are all blood brothers. We are all one family. And like siblings in all families, we sometimes fight one another, but we are still one family.
The "distinction" is artificial.

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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #182 on: May 04, 2009, 10:46:52 PM »
I would like to point out though, as i'm sure you, and others might have noticed, quite a few post's in this thread may well fall in this category as well  ;) 
Indeed I have, and they too have been asked to refrain (when a moderator types in green font, she or he is speaking as a moderator- look for the green font in this thread).
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One of the things frightening me about those on this thread who defend waterboarding, painful coercion, etc. while refusing to call it torture, is the fine line they are walking in inadvertently creating an argument for its usefulness on US citizens. If it's not torture, then it's not cruel or unusual, is it? If that's the case, then do you take issue with waterboarding in cases of getting low level drug dealing US CITIZENS to give up their suppliers, or suspected child rapists to reveal the bodies of their victims?  If not, why not? It's for the greater good, isn't it?  
Interesting point. Can the US citizen mother of a wanted criminal be waterboarded to reveal his whereabouts?
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Offline Jakub

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #183 on: May 04, 2009, 10:57:47 PM »
This topic is going to get political...if it hasn't already, move it for real fire works
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #184 on: May 05, 2009, 01:19:39 AM »
One of the things frightening me about those on this thread who defend waterboarding, painful coercion, etc. while refusing to call it torture, is the fine line they are walking in inadently creating an argument for its usefulness on US citizens. If it's not torture, then it's not cruel or unusual, is it? If that's the case, then do you take issue with waterboarding in cases of getting low level drug dealing US CITIZENS to give up their suppliers, or suspected child rapists to reveal the bodies of their victims?  If not, why not? It's for the greater good, isn't it?  

The situations are quite different.  What you mention are domestic law enforcement issues.  While the cartel problem has the potential to become more serious, none of them pose any real existential threat to the US.  That's very different than a state of war and only using torture in very limited circumstances.     

Offline John of the North

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #185 on: May 05, 2009, 01:24:24 AM »
One of the things frightening me about those on this thread who defend waterboarding, painful coercion, etc. while refusing to call it torture, is the fine line they are walking in inadently creating an argument for its usefulness on US citizens. If it's not torture, then it's not cruel or unusual, is it? If that's the case, then do you take issue with waterboarding in cases of getting low level drug dealing US CITIZENS to give up their suppliers, or suspected child rapists to reveal the bodies of their victims?  If not, why not? It's for the greater good, isn't it?  

The situations are quite different.  What you mention are domestic law enforcement issues.  While the cartel problem has the potential to become more serious, none of them pose any real existential threat to the US.  That's very different than a state of war and only using torture in very limited circumstances.     

"Very limited circumstances" is rather open to interpretation.
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #186 on: May 05, 2009, 01:34:27 AM »
Personally, I would never, ever approve or support torture (or whatever you call it), under any circumstances.

I agree.
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #187 on: May 05, 2009, 02:35:01 AM »
One of the things frightening me about those on this thread who defend waterboarding, painful coercion, etc. while refusing to call it torture, is the fine line they are walking in inadently creating an argument for its usefulness on US citizens. If it's not torture, then it's not cruel or unusual, is it? If that's the case, then do you take issue with waterboarding in cases of getting low level drug dealing US CITIZENS to give up their suppliers, or suspected child rapists to reveal the bodies of their victims?  If not, why not? It's for the greater good, isn't it?  

The situations are quite different.  What you mention are domestic law enforcement issues.  While the cartel problem has the potential to become more serious, none of them pose any real existential threat to the US.  That's very different than a state of war and only using torture in very limited circumstances.     

"Very limited circumstances" is rather open to interpretation.

I already defined those early in the thread and said the key is to have an independent review.  What I don't quite understand is what is really so different about killing someone on the battle field vs. waterboarding (which isn't that bad).  It seems people are operating some romantic vision of it being honourable or whatever to kill.  If a country is facing an existential thread, I don't see how it could be considered ethical if the leaders choose to not use all force at their disposal. 

Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #188 on: May 05, 2009, 08:57:49 AM »
One of the things frightening me about those on this thread who defend waterboarding, painful coercion, etc. while refusing to call it torture, is the fine line they are walking in inadently creating an argument for its usefulness on US citizens. If it's not torture, then it's not cruel or unusual, is it? If that's the case, then do you take issue with waterboarding in cases of getting low level drug dealing US CITIZENS to give up their suppliers, or suspected child rapists to reveal the bodies of their victims?  If not, why not? It's for the greater good, isn't it?  

The situations are quite different.  What you mention are domestic law enforcement issues.  While the cartel problem has the potential to become more serious, none of them pose any real existential threat to the US.  That's very different than a state of war and only using torture in very limited circumstances.     

I think you're partly missing my point. If we're willing to make justifications for the use of torture for what may be considered imminent and profound threats, at what point will we make the leap to using torture for less immediate, but equally serious threats to our safety and society? If a rationalization already exists for its use, AND if we refuse to define these techniques being discussed AS torture, making that leap to using won't be as difficult.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #189 on: May 05, 2009, 10:30:03 AM »
Personally, I would never, ever approve or support torture (or whatever you call it), under any circumstances.

Suppose the Great Russians decided to reclaim the Ukraine since the little Russians obviously haven't been able to administer it properly themselves, would it be permissible in your eyes to raise any sort of military resistance?



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Νεκτάριος, it's not THE Ukraine, just Ukraine.   ;)

This is a touchy subject.  I enjoy living in a country which provides me certain freedoms and liberties.  Some would say this is due to the actions happening in the "background" that I am not even aware of...that keep us relatively "safe".

However, while I crave safety for myself and my loved ones, just like any other living person....I have trouble justifying torture as a means to an end.

If you look at things from a secular aspect...and convenience of living, etc....than we would "justify" many, many things...such as abortion.  Allowing the birth of unwanted children puts stress on the mothers, stress on our society, as well.  That unwanted child will be passed from foster home to foster home, and will be a burden on society, and eat up our tax money, etc.  We could go on and on....  We can justify anything.

However, from an Orthodox perspective, abortion is NOT permitted.  That little life has a right to flourish and prosper and live.

Therefore, while on one hand you can justify torture...for it allows us to live in relative "peace"...how can we truly be at peace knowing that "we" are harming others?  It's a double sided coin!

We need to live by Christian ethics.  Remember, we are only here for a certain number of years.  The "thereafter", will last an eternity.   

We will reap there what we have sewn here.

"Do unto others, as you would have them do onto you."

...Just my humble opinion.




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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #190 on: May 05, 2009, 11:55:12 AM »
Νεκτάριος, it's not THE Ukraine, just Ukraine.   ;)

No offense intended.  I was merely pointing out the irony that Pan Heorhij has a constant mantra that American culture is woefully inadequate yet merely the placement of a definite article causes controversy.  And my question still hasn't been answered - does Ukraine have the right to defend itself were there be a Russian invasion?  Or perhaps more likely would be if Crimea attempts to secede.   

I think you're partly missing my point. If we're willing to make justifications for the use of torture for what may be considered imminent and profound threats, at what point will we make the leap to using torture for less immediate, but equally serious threats to our safety and society?

The slippery slope argument doesn't really work.  Maybe Papist could derail this thread too to make my point (since I'm sure that legalised abortion in the US means we're only a short step away from concentration camps).     

If a rationalization already exists for its use, AND if we refuse to define these techniques being discussed AS torture, making that leap to using won't be as difficult.

Who is this we?  I've always referred to waterboarding as torture. 

Here is what I am getting at - for war in general to be considered an ethically acceptable choice, it ought to be to protect against an existential threat.  Do we more or less agree?   


Offline philalethe00

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #191 on: May 05, 2009, 02:32:15 PM »
"Who would Jesus waterboard?"

What a question...


I'd say, that I totally agree with ozgeorge...

Two of the biggest problems -in my opinion- in American Protestantism and/or Evangelism -besides that it is heresy, of course- :) are
a)rationalism, loss and lack of the mystic essence of christianity and its transformation to... another religion, sth that I would call most "offensive" for Christianity as a whole...
b) Overconcentration on the Old Testament, and misinterpretation. The people at that age were condemned by means of the lack of penance of Adam and Eve to a lot of things. Jesus was indeed a redeemer in that he "freed us of the curse of the Law" and set some moral standards that are beyond non-violence. And he set them for all, whether it is "Caesar" or not.

Saints that were "kings" truly followed to a certain (large) degree this spirit. St Constantine the Great, John third Vatatzis the "Merciful" for example established an outstanding democracy within in and in comparison to the given historical context. Theodosius the so-called (by historians) Great and Justinian were not saints by any means. 

Well, not to elaborate on these, just to conclude with reminding that we judge the tree by its fruit. And the trees here are Catholicism of the white, American Evangelism and so on... So sad. But seems that contradicts with some other poll, that showed most Christians in US thought themselves as "left" or "liberal" or "progressive". Could these be ethics of a "left" american?...  And could we as Christians be so much less sensitive about these issues than a secular moralist? A scandal...
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 02:39:44 PM by philalethe00 »
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #192 on: May 05, 2009, 02:39:51 PM »
"Who would Jesus waterboard?"

What a question...

As long the person doing the slaughtering is Orthodox they are a candidate for sainthood. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian#Nika_riots

Offline philalethe00

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #193 on: May 05, 2009, 02:49:23 PM »
"Who would Jesus waterboard?"

What a question...

As long the person doing the slaughtering is Orthodox they are a candidate for sainthood. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian#Nika_riots
Not to offend you, but this is so wrong, my friend...  :) Fathers of the church always condemned so strongly these crimes... And there is an example  very distinctive. Saint Ambrosius of Mediolanum(Milan) literally threw Theodosius the king out, when he came to attend church after the slaughter at the hippodrome of Salonica, because of a riot that occured due to a dissent of the people about a matter of the state.

Anyways, did you have sth specific in mind?    :)

Edit: Only just seen the wikipedia claim that he is considered a saint by the Eastern Orthodox. As far I know, this is mistaken. There is a saint called Justinian, as well as (there is) a saint called Plato, but they are not the famous (or infamous  :) ) ones... Greetings... :)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 02:54:29 PM by philalethe00 »
"Look down from heaven, O Lord, upon those who bow their heads unto You, for they do not bow to flesh and blood, but to You, the awesome God".(D. Liturgy, St. John Chrysostom)
"When the world laughs, the saints, in crying, draw the Divine compassion onto humans."(Paul Evdokimov)

Offline Anastasios

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #194 on: May 05, 2009, 02:56:24 PM »
St Justinian the Emperor is commemorated on Nov 14.

http://www.holytrinityorthodox.com/calendar/los/November/14-03.htm
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #195 on: May 05, 2009, 03:00:37 PM »
"Who would Jesus waterboard?"

What a question...

As long the person doing the slaughtering is Orthodox they are a candidate for sainthood. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian#Nika_riots

He was of course doing his duty as emperor to restore peace and order.  If he had not the lawless rioting that would have engulfed the empire would have potentially had far worse repercussions. So I would argue that he would have been sinning if he had not put down that rebellion. So really he was kind of "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

Of course, there is also the possibility that he went to confession and did penance for any excesses.
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Offline philalethe00

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Re: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
« Reply #196 on: May 05, 2009, 03:07:21 PM »
St Justinian the Emperor is commemorated on Nov 14.

http://www.holytrinityorthodox.com/calendar/los/November/14-03.htm
Thank you for the piece of information, Fr. Anastasios.  :) But I think that it might not be that accurate. It's so distinctive, that if you search with the key words "agios(=saint) + Ioustinianos(=Justinian)" via google in the greek part of the web, you won't find any results but those of "notorious", let's say, websites which always try to find flaws in the Church, which most of the times are artificial, though.

All in all, this is a stimulus to research on a topic somewhat forlorn.  :)

Regards... (Or is it "best regards"?  ???   :)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 03:09:35 PM by philalethe00 »
"Look down from heaven, O Lord, upon those who bow their heads unto You, for they do not bow to flesh and blood, but to You, the awesome God".(D. Liturgy, St. John Chrysostom)
"When the world laughs, the saints, in crying, draw the Divine compassion onto humans."(Paul Evdokimov)