Author Topic: Contraception & Natural Law  (Read 59132 times)

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Offline Pilgrim

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Contraception & Natural Law
« on: May 12, 2009, 02:08:57 AM »
I have heard that the Orthodox church has changed the teaching on contraception.

realizing that this has probably been endlessly covered, I'd appreciate it if I could be directed to the appropriate thread, if there is one.

Thanks! ;D
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2009, 02:36:38 AM »
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Offline Pilgrim

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2009, 07:51:37 PM »
Thanks a ton!

I didn't know that the ROCOR took a harder line towards contraception. Does anyone have more info on this?

Also....last poster, what is the Roman Orthodox Church Outside Rome? There's one I've never heard of. Your link goes to ROCOR...
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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2009, 08:01:03 PM »
Pilgrim,

As I am sure you will read on the other threads that have been posted here, you will note that the issue of contraception has always been an issue between the married couple and their priest.  This is not a change in doctrine (doctrine does not change) but it does reflect that the family structure in society, whether Christian or not, has gone through many periods of flux and the Church responds to this on a case by case basis rather than apply a one-size-fits-all standard.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2009, 08:38:58 PM »
Pilgrim, welcome to the forum!  I like you avatar.

Have you read The Way of a Pilgrim?  I just finished it last week and I loved it!  It's a fabulous narrative introduction to Hesychast prayer; the Holy Stillness.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 08:39:18 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2009, 09:03:16 PM »
Also....last poster, what is the Roman Orthodox Church Outside Rome? There's one I've never heard of. Your link goes to ROCOR...

I mostly attend a ROCOR parish, and it follows the Divine Liturgy of Saint Gregory the Great (Western Rite).  So, just a play on the acronym since it is the Roman Liturgy.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2009, 09:11:54 PM »
So, is it wrong for Orthodox men to get a vasectomy when they are done fathering children, or must it be up to God to decide when I am done procreating (which will be never)?

Offline Heorhij

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2009, 10:43:22 AM »
So, is it wrong for Orthodox men to get a vasectomy when they are done fathering children, or must it be up to God to decide when I am done procreating (which will be never)?

I think vasectomy must be a common decision made by the husband and the wife, and blessed by their priest. The decision of the priest to bless it or not to bless it should be made strictly on a case-to-case basis, and the key thing to consider there would be, will vasectomy help theosis.
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Offline Pilgrim

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2009, 06:23:27 PM »
I haven't read that one yet. I have ordered The Orthodox Church by Bp. Kallistos Ware, and it should arrive soon.

Back to topic, I'm still a bit confused. If contraception is a husband-wife-priest issue, does that mean that it is moral to use for certain reasons. The RCC teaches that, lke abortion, contraception is immoral for any reason.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2009, 07:53:03 PM »
I haven't read that one yet. I have ordered The Orthodox Church by Bp. Kallistos Ware, and it should arrive soon.

Back to topic, I'm still a bit confused. If contraception is a husband-wife-priest issue, does that mean that it is moral to use for certain reasons. The RCC teaches that, lke abortion, contraception is immoral for any reason.
That is true, although many Catholics do not practice that these days. I know that in my mother's time it was taboo to use contraceptives. Maybe that's why she had ten kids?  :-\
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Offline Pilgrim

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2009, 11:48:43 PM »
You're definitly right about not many Catholics practicing it nowadays! >:(

But, as St. Augustine (or Blessed Augustine) said

"Right is right even if no one is doing it, and wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
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Offline Pilgrim

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2009, 11:50:11 PM »
Which, BTW, is the problem.

Is it right, wrong, or does it vary with the situation?
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2009, 12:10:35 AM »
Which, BTW, is the problem.

Is it right, wrong, or does it vary with the situation?

You will likely find a variety of opinions on this one.

Some are dead set against ANY form of contraception (even NFP), some say it is alright only to space out children, others allow it due to the unitive nature of sex, etc.  It is definitely an "Ask your Spiritual Father" question.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2009, 02:38:07 AM »
You're definitly right about not many Catholics practicing it nowadays! >:(

But, as St. Augustine (or Blessed Augustine) said

"Right is right even if no one is doing it, and wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
I seem to agree with Catholic teaching on this issue. It has been very well defined in Humae Vitae.
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Offline Michał

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2009, 05:29:00 PM »
This is an answer to this post.

I read that the Eastern Orthodox Church has changed its teaching on contraception. In fact, in an earlier edition of one book, it was said that it was not OK, but in a later edition of the same book, it was approved, under certain circumstances.

One of the major aims of marriage is procreation. Children are gifts from God. We are to not to fear having more babies. We are to rejoyce of it. We should not be egoistic while planning our families. Life should be protected from the very moment of its conception. ===> These teachings of the Eastern Orthodox Church have never changed and they never will change. Still, the opinions about how this teachings should affect our attitude towards contraception vary. There are generally three points of view among Orthodox:
Quote
    1) There are those who hold the view that sex should only be for the purpose of procreation, and so even natural family planning would be prohibited.
    2)There are those who argue that natural family planning is acceptable, because it simply involves abstinence from sex during times when fertility is likely.
    3)There are those who teach that non-abortifacient contraception is acceptable if it is used with the blessing of one's spiritual father, and if it is not used simply to avoid having children for purely selfish reasons.
Source: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Contraception#Synopsis

Some might say that allowing for any form of contraception is in disagreement with the Holy Fahters. But we have to remember that thay had a very different view about human physiology. They thought that every drop of sperm has an already created tiny human being inside so waisting it would be the same as abortion. With modern biological knowledge, we have to admit that it doesn't work that way.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 05:40:46 PM by Michał »

Offline Quinault

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2009, 05:46:36 PM »
You're definitly right about not many Catholics practicing it nowadays! >:(

But, as St. Augustine (or Blessed Augustine) said

"Right is right even if no one is doing it, and wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
I seem to agree with Catholic teaching on this issue. It has been very well defined in Humae Vitae.

You do realize that the Orthodox church does not adhere to Humane Vitae right? And it's status as an Ex cathedra statement is very much up for debate right?

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2009, 05:53:21 PM »
You're definitly right about not many Catholics practicing it nowadays! >:(

But, as St. Augustine (or Blessed Augustine) said

"Right is right even if no one is doing it, and wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
I seem to agree with Catholic teaching on this issue. It has been very well defined in Humae Vitae.

You do realize that the Orthodox church does not adhere to Humane Vitae right? And it's status as an Ex cathedra statement is very much up for debate right?
I am aware of that. My comment was directed to a fellow Catholic that is inquiring about Orthodoxy, just like me.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 05:54:16 PM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline Gabriel

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2009, 05:55:42 PM »
You do realize that the Orthodox church does not adhere to Humane Vitae right? And it's status as an Ex cathedra statement is very much up for debate right?

How so?  I thought any statement on faith or morals was ex cathedra?
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2009, 05:59:54 PM »
You're definitly right about not many Catholics practicing it nowadays! >:(

But, as St. Augustine (or Blessed Augustine) said

"Right is right even if no one is doing it, and wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
I seem to agree with Catholic teaching on this issue. It has been very well defined in Humae Vitae.

You do realize that the Orthodox church does not adhere to Humane Vitae right? And it's status as an Ex cathedra statement is very much up for debate right?
And as far as I know, It is NOT Ex Cathedra.
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2009, 07:44:59 PM »
You do realize that the Orthodox church does not adhere to Humane Vitae right? And it's status as an Ex cathedra statement is very much up for debate right?

How so?  I thought any statement on faith or morals was ex cathedra?

Defining doctrine on faith or morals.   

But no, Humanae Vitae is not viewed upon as an ex Cathedra statement.  Just look at the 'Winnipeg Statement' by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops that was published months after.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2009, 08:01:51 PM »
The correct spelling is " Humanae Vitae" , my bad :police:
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2009, 08:42:44 PM »
Which, BTW, is the problem.

Is it right, wrong, or does it vary with the situation?

You will likely find a variety of opinions on this one.

Some are dead set against ANY form of contraception (even NFP), some say it is alright only to space out children, others allow it due to the unitive nature of sex, etc.

Being against contraception is not peculiarly Roman Catholic (like believing the office of the Pope is of divine origin and the channel of the church's infallibility on faith and morals). It's not even peculiarly Catholic in general.

Before 1930 all Christians agreed it's wrong. ALL. Including Protestants from high-church Lutherans to hardshell Baptists to writhing Pentecostals. Including... the Orthodox.

Given the decentralised nature of the Orthodox communion - not only no Vatican but not even a Lambeth (being invited to which defines who is Anglican) - it's fair to say there is a range of opinion on it there now, from agreeing with Rome/the early church/the Orthodox before the 1950s or so to more or less where mainline Protestantism was on the subject 50 years ago (it's between the couple, the minister and God, and only for the married).

One bishop, even one patriarch, issuing an encyclical yea or nay on the subject would not define Orthodoxy like the Pope does for Rome.

Citing widespread dissent on this among RCs is a slippery slope used by pro-aborts and people who believe in same-sex marriage (which is where the mainline Protestant churches are now: almost anything goes in a 'loving relationship' of consenting adults, hetero or same-sex). I don't think an Orthodox wants to use that argument.

Nice to hear about Western Rite ROCOR but...

'The Divine Liturgy of St Gregory'? Why not call it what it is, in all its goodness: 'the Roman Mass'? Byzantinisations like that are like when a Greek Catholic takes down the iconostasis and has groups praying the Rosary in church. For the same misguided reason (proving one's loyalty to one's church by copying its majority rite and differentiating from the bigger church that uses your rite). It's just not on.

Besides the Orthodox already have a Liturgy of St Gregory (Dialogos, the Pope of Rome), that of the Presanctified Gifts.
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Offline Mardukm

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2009, 11:53:03 PM »
You do realize that the Orthodox church does not adhere to Humane Vitae right? And it's status as an Ex cathedra statement is very much up for debate right?

How so?  I thought any statement on faith or morals was ex cathedra?
There are four living organs of infallibility in the Catholic Church - (1) Sacred Tradition; (2) a teaching on faith and morals proposed by the Pope ex cathedra; (3) a teaching from an Ecumenical Council on faith and morals; (4) a definitive teaching by the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or morals even while dispersed throughout the world.

Not all statements on faith or morals by the Pope is ex cathedra.

Humanae Vitae is considered infallible by a majority of Catholics on the authority of #1, NOT #2, #3, or #4.

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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2009, 01:29:15 AM »
Quote
There are four living organs of infallibility in the Catholic Church - (1) Sacred Tradition; (2) a teaching on faith and morals proposed by the Pope ex cathedra; (3) a teaching from an Ecumenical Council on faith and morals; (4) a definitive teaching by the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or morals even while dispersed throughout the world.

Not all statements on faith or morals by the Pope is ex cathedra.

Humanae Vitae is considered infallible by a majority of Catholics on the authority of #1, NOT #2, #3, or #4.

Blessings
if it is to be considered "infallible" then wouldn't you say that Catholics as a whole are obligated to accept it as such? Either it is or it isn't. By the way, where are all the Coptic Catholic churches at here on the west coast?  :) Mr. Markdukum
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 01:33:26 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2009, 01:44:20 AM »
There are four living organs of infallibility in the Catholic Church - (1) Sacred Tradition; (2) a teaching on faith and morals proposed by the Pope ex cathedra; (3) a teaching from an Ecumenical Council on faith and morals; (4) a definitive teaching by the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or morals even while dispersed throughout the world.

Not all statements on faith or morals by the Pope is ex cathedra.

Humanae Vitae is considered infallible by a majority of Catholics on the authority of #1, NOT #2, #3, or #4.

I have to differ.  It is known to all that Humanae Vitae contains not one patristic quote.  It is also known why - because Humanae Vitae is NOT consistent with patristic tradition and any patristic quote would have highlighted that rupture with tradition.

Offline Papist

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2009, 09:24:34 AM »
There are four living organs of infallibility in the Catholic Church - (1) Sacred Tradition; (2) a teaching on faith and morals proposed by the Pope ex cathedra; (3) a teaching from an Ecumenical Council on faith and morals; (4) a definitive teaching by the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or morals even while dispersed throughout the world.

Not all statements on faith or morals by the Pope is ex cathedra.

Humanae Vitae is considered infallible by a majority of Catholics on the authority of #1, NOT #2, #3, or #4.

I have to differ.  It is known to all that Humanae Vitae contains not one patristic quote.  It is also known why - because Humanae Vitae is NOT consistent with patristic tradition and any patristic quote would have highlighted that rupture with tradition.
Just like the EO rupture with tradition on the matter.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2009, 09:25:04 AM »
Quote
There are four living organs of infallibility in the Catholic Church - (1) Sacred Tradition; (2) a teaching on faith and morals proposed by the Pope ex cathedra; (3) a teaching from an Ecumenical Council on faith and morals; (4) a definitive teaching by the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or morals even while dispersed throughout the world.

Not all statements on faith or morals by the Pope is ex cathedra.

Humanae Vitae is considered infallible by a majority of Catholics on the authority of #1, NOT #2, #3, or #4.

Blessings
if it is to be considered "infallible" then wouldn't you say that Catholics as a whole are obligated to accept it as such? Either it is or it isn't. By the way, where are all the Coptic Catholic churches at here on the west coast?  :) Mr. Markdukum
Catholics are obliged to give religious assent to all Catholic teaching whether it is ex cathedra or not.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 09:25:27 AM by Papist »
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Offline Mickey

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2009, 09:56:42 AM »
Catholics are obliged to give religious assent to all Catholic teaching whether it is ex cathedra or not.

This is true.

LUMEN GENTIUM

“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.”

~Dogmatic Constitution on the church #25

Offline Gabriel

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2009, 12:18:36 PM »
This is true.

LUMEN GENTIUM

“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.”

~Dogmatic Constitution on the church #25

Okay... so, there's no accountability for what the Pope teaches, other than "the guidance of the Holy Spirit"?

If you're supposed to obey, ex cathedra or not, then they might as well all be ex cathedra, yeah?
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Offline Papist

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2009, 01:46:32 PM »
This is true.

LUMEN GENTIUM

“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.”

~Dogmatic Constitution on the church #25

Okay... so, there's no accountability for what the Pope teaches, other than "the guidance of the Holy Spirit"?

If you're supposed to obey, ex cathedra or not, then they might as well all be ex cathedra, yeah?
Well one is the specific gift of infallibility. The other I would think falls under the gift of the indefectability of the Church. Both come from the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 01:49:48 PM by Papist »
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Offline Mardukm

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2009, 01:51:46 PM »
Quote
There are four living organs of infallibility in the Catholic Church - (1) Sacred Tradition; (2) a teaching on faith and morals proposed by the Pope ex cathedra; (3) a teaching from an Ecumenical Council on faith and morals; (4) a definitive teaching by the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or morals even while dispersed throughout the world.

Not all statements on faith or morals by the Pope is ex cathedra.

Humanae Vitae is considered infallible by a majority of Catholics on the authority of #1, NOT #2, #3, or #4.

Blessings
if it is to be considered "infallible" then wouldn't you say that Catholics as a whole are obligated to accept it as such? Either it is or it isn't. By the way, where are all the Coptic Catholic churches at here on the west coast?  :) Mr. Markdukum
Yes, if it is considered "infallible," then it is nothing more nor less than divine teaching that all Catholics are obliged to accept from the motive of love of God's commandments/teaching.  As brother Papist has pointed out, even non-infallible teaching requires religious obedience.

However, it should be pointed out that there is a difference between "assent of faith" and "religious obedience." "Assent of Faith" has as its object divine doctrine, whereas "religious obedience" has as its object the Magisterium.

Re: Coptic Catholic parishes, Coptic Catholics are the few and the proud. ;D  There are only two parishes in the U.S.  The one on the West Coast is in Los Angeles, California.

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Offline Papist

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2009, 01:53:31 PM »
Quote
There are four living organs of infallibility in the Catholic Church - (1) Sacred Tradition; (2) a teaching on faith and morals proposed by the Pope ex cathedra; (3) a teaching from an Ecumenical Council on faith and morals; (4) a definitive teaching by the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or morals even while dispersed throughout the world.

Not all statements on faith or morals by the Pope is ex cathedra.

Humanae Vitae is considered infallible by a majority of Catholics on the authority of #1, NOT #2, #3, or #4.

Blessings
if it is to be considered "infallible" then wouldn't you say that Catholics as a whole are obligated to accept it as such? Either it is or it isn't. By the way, where are all the Coptic Catholic churches at here on the west coast?  :) Mr. Markdukum
Yes, if it is considered "infallible," then it is nothing more nor less than divine teaching that all Catholics are obliged to accept from the motive of love of God's commandments/teaching.  As brother Papist has pointed out, even non-infallible teaching requires religious obedience.

However, it should be pointed out that there is a difference between "assent of faith" and "religious obedience." "Assent of Faith" has as its object divine doctrine, whereas "religious obedience" has as its object the Magisterium.

Re: Coptic Catholic parishes, Coptic Catholics are the few and the proud. ;D  There are only two parishes in the U.S.  The one on the West Coast is in Los Angeles, California.

Blessings
I think that this is pretty well stated.
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Offline Mardukm

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2009, 01:54:38 PM »
There are four living organs of infallibility in the Catholic Church - (1) Sacred Tradition; (2) a teaching on faith and morals proposed by the Pope ex cathedra; (3) a teaching from an Ecumenical Council on faith and morals; (4) a definitive teaching by the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or morals even while dispersed throughout the world.

Not all statements on faith or morals by the Pope is ex cathedra.

Humanae Vitae is considered infallible by a majority of Catholics on the authority of #1, NOT #2, #3, or #4.

I have to differ.  It is known to all that Humanae Vitae contains not one patristic quote.  It is also known why - because Humanae Vitae is NOT consistent with patristic tradition and any patristic quote would have highlighted that rupture with tradition.
I suppose this would be a good segueway to discuss what patristic quotes can be provided to demonstrate that the teaching of Humanae Vitae somehow contradicts the Fathers.

Humbly,
Marduk

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2009, 01:56:32 PM »
Quote
There are four living organs of infallibility in the Catholic Church - (1) Sacred Tradition; (2) a teaching on faith and morals proposed by the Pope ex cathedra; (3) a teaching from an Ecumenical Council on faith and morals; (4) a definitive teaching by the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or morals even while dispersed throughout the world.

Not all statements on faith or morals by the Pope is ex cathedra.

Humanae Vitae is considered infallible by a majority of Catholics on the authority of #1, NOT #2, #3, or #4.

Blessings
if it is to be considered "infallible" then wouldn't you say that Catholics as a whole are obligated to accept it as such? Either it is or it isn't. By the way, where are all the Coptic Catholic churches at here on the west coast?  :) Mr. Markdukum
Yes, if it is considered "infallible," then it is nothing more nor less than divine teaching that all Catholics are obliged to accept from the motive of love of God's commandments/teaching.  As brother Papist has pointed out, even non-infallible teaching requires religious obedience.

However, it should be pointed out that there is a difference between "assent of faith" and "religious obedience." "Assent of Faith" has as its object divine doctrine, whereas "religious obedience" has as its object the Magisterium.

And yet when we point this out, that you must believe whatever the pope says, we are told, "no, just ex cathedra statements."  What practical difference is there, if both must be held/assented to?

Quote

Re: Coptic Catholic parishes, Coptic Catholics are the few and the proud. ;D  There are only two parishes in the U.S.  The one on the West Coast is in Los Angeles, California.

Blessings

Pride cometh before a fall. :P
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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2009, 02:03:17 PM »
Quote
There are four living organs of infallibility in the Catholic Church - (1) Sacred Tradition; (2) a teaching on faith and morals proposed by the Pope ex cathedra; (3) a teaching from an Ecumenical Council on faith and morals; (4) a definitive teaching by the bishops of the world on a matter of faith or morals even while dispersed throughout the world.

Not all statements on faith or morals by the Pope is ex cathedra.

Humanae Vitae is considered infallible by a majority of Catholics on the authority of #1, NOT #2, #3, or #4.

Blessings
if it is to be considered "infallible" then wouldn't you say that Catholics as a whole are obligated to accept it as such? Either it is or it isn't. By the way, where are all the Coptic Catholic churches at here on the west coast?  :) Mr. Markdukum
Yes, if it is considered "infallible," then it is nothing more nor less than divine teaching that all Catholics are obliged to accept from the motive of love of God's commandments/teaching.  As brother Papist has pointed out, even non-infallible teaching requires religious obedience.

However, it should be pointed out that there is a difference between "assent of faith" and "religious obedience." "Assent of Faith" has as its object divine doctrine, whereas "religious obedience" has as its object the Magisterium.

And yet when we point this out, that you must believe whatever the pope says, we are told, "no, just ex cathedra statements."  What practical difference is there, if both must be held/assented to?

Quote

Re: Coptic Catholic parishes, Coptic Catholics are the few and the proud. ;D  There are only two parishes in the U.S.  The one on the West Coast is in Los Angeles, California.

Blessings

Pride cometh before a fall. :P
Not everything he says exactly. Just everything he teaches as Supreme Pontiff. If its a private sermon or his book "Jesus of Nazareth" that's one thing. But if its an encyclical, then that is him teaching as Pope of the Universal Church.
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Offline Mickey

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2009, 02:09:14 PM »
 As brother Papist has pointed out, even non-infallible teaching requires religious obedience.

It requires "submission of mind and will".

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2009, 02:12:24 PM »
 As brother Papist has pointed out, even non-infallible teaching requires religious obedience.

It requires "submission of mind and will".
They are a different kind of assent though. Ex Cathedra statements require an assent that is to God becaause these statements are about divine revelation. Other statements are not exactly the same thing.
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Offline Mickey

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2009, 02:23:30 PM »
Ex Cathedra statements require an assent that is to God...

Are you saying that the pope is synonymous to God!!!

Other statements are not exactly the same thing.

But it says that you must submit mind and will to the teachings that are not "infallible".  Please explain.

Offline Papist

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2009, 02:30:36 PM »
Ex Cathedra statements require an assent that is to God...

Are you saying that the pope is synonymous to God!!!

Other statements are not exactly the same thing.

But it says that you must submit mind and will to the teachings that are not "infallible".  Please explain.

Mickey, you were Catholic. You already know all the answers to these question. Why are you playing ignorant?
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Offline Mardukm

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2009, 02:34:57 PM »
 As brother Papist has pointed out, even non-infallible teaching requires religious obedience.

It requirea "submission of mind and will".
I'll give you an example that will perhaps help you understand.

Let's take the matter of confession.  In the Armenian Catholic Church, general confession is normal.  An Armenian Catholic is bound under religious obedience to adhere to the teaching of his/her hierarchs.  In the Latin Church, individual confession is the norm, and a Latin Catholic is bound under religious obedience to the teaching of his/her hierarchs.  So if a Latin Catholic attends DL at an Armenian Catholic Church, whereas an Armenian Catholic would have no religious obligation to confess privately to a priest, that Latin Catholic still has a religious obligation ("mind and will") to confess his sins privately and individually to a priest.

The divine teaching requiring an assent of faith would be that God has given to the Church the power to forgive sins.

Blessings
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 02:35:58 PM by Mardukm »

Offline Mickey

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2009, 02:35:17 PM »
Mickey, you were Catholic.

I am Catholic right now.


You already know all the answers to these question.

When I was in communion with the church of Rome, I thought that I had the answers.  But I have since learned that the parameters are always mutating.  ;D


Offline Mickey

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2009, 02:37:36 PM »
I'll give you an example that will perhaps help you understand.

YOUR example is meaningless.  Lumen Gentium speaks for itself.

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2009, 02:38:16 PM »

I am Catholic right now.
Nope.

When I was in communion with the church of Rome, I thought that I had the answers.  But I have since learned that the parameters are always mutating.  ;D
Nope.

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Offline Mardukm

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2009, 02:39:35 PM »
Ex Cathedra statements require an assent that is to God...

Are you saying that the pope is synonymous to God!!!
No, but infallible teaching, whether from Sacred Tradition, the Pope ex cathedra, from an Ecumenical Council, or from the bishops of the world united in one voice yet dispersed throughout the world, are to be accepted as if the teaching came directly from God himself.  I guess the EO don't claim that?  Strange.

Blessings

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Re: Contraception & Natural Law
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2009, 02:40:20 PM »
Ex Cathedra statements require an assent that is to God...

Are you saying that the pope is synonymous to God!!!
No, but infallible teaching, whether from Sacred Tradition, the Pope ex cathedra, from an Ecumenical Council, or from the bishops of the world united in one voice yet dispersed throughout the world, are to be accepted as if the teaching came directly from God himself.  I guess the EO don't claim that?  Strange.

Blessings
Yeah, I thought that EOs viewed the teachings of Ecumenical Councils as teachings from God too. Very strange indeed.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 02:44:20 PM by Papist »
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