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Author Topic: Finnish Orthodox Bishop Organizes forum with Freemasons  (Read 5507 times) Average Rating: 0
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Theoprovlitos
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« on: May 11, 2009, 12:27:01 PM »

ORTHODOX METROPOLITAN OF HELISNKI ORGANIZES SYMPOSIUM AND PRAYER SERVICE WITH THE FREEMASONS OF FINLAND

English transaltion from the Finnish Freemason magazine "Koiliskulma"

COME TO CULTURE CENTRE SOFIA
The Wall of Masons confronts the evil

According to a scientific research a part of our brotherhood are experiencing within Freemasonry a nostalgy towards the Divine. A year ago in the Orthodox Cultural Centre an inter-Masonic symposium took place with the aim to study the common elements between Freemasonry and religion. The title was “Encounter with the Divine”. Brothers from all Masonic Organizations of Finland were present.

Introduction was made by the Orthodox Metropolitan of Helsinki Ambrosius while other participants wereHeikki Kukkonen: Every symbol of ours includes a needed and positive message. The world of Masonic symbols a tool of educative methods access to which is secret for those outside, as a sort of intranet tool.

Göran Andersson, Civil Engineer: A good and impressive conference presupposes that its workers do not only skillfully perform their duties but they also understand the symbolic importance of their roles. Those who go deeper into this can also experience in a new way encounter with the divine.

Sakari Lehmuskallio, Lutheran pastor: Ancient Church Fathers said that “the closer to God the darker it is and the darker it is the closest to God”. In my opinion this alone is enough to explain the fact why to the person who has the urge to go to deeper into things, Freemasonry feels good and positive.

The general discussion and group forums gave such good impressions that participants expressed their wish for future conferences. For this reason Metropolitan Ambrosius invited the participants in a similar Symposium that will be held on May 8th, 2009 at the Orthodox Cultural Centre “Sofia” with the title “Confronting evil. Connections of Freemasonry and of the shady side of Life”

The Service of the Hours will take place in the chapel of “Sofia Centre” at 15:00.

Sakari Lehmuskallio

http://theoprovlitos.blogspot.com/2009/05/blog-post_07.html
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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2009, 12:28:29 PM »

My God.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2009, 12:32:45 PM »

Wait for more Fr Anastasios! Sad
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2009, 01:01:57 PM »

Could you provide a more reliable source than a blog? One can post everything there and don't need to prove it.
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2009, 01:13:34 PM »

Could you provide a more reliable source than a blog?
Particularly not one's own blog.
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2009, 01:14:38 PM »

Could you provide a more reliable source than a blog?
Particularly not one's own blog.

I have just noticed it.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2009, 01:37:11 PM »

Wait for more Fr Anastasios! Sad
Yes, let's wait for Theoprovlitos to cite sources outside of his own blog.  Like maybe a link to the external news source from which he "translated" his story.
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2009, 02:52:02 PM »

On another thread (see esp. Reply #2), someone point out how Theoprovlitos modified his own blog copy of a document to insert a name that did not exist in the original.  If he will engage in such acts of fraud on his own blog as to forge evidence of Orthodox participation in an LBGT conference, then how can we trust that what he has blogged on this "forum with Freemasons" is itself free of forgery?
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2009, 03:03:56 PM »

The blog includes a photocopy from the magazine of the Freemasons. And this is the only source you can get, unless you travel to Finland and ask the bishops hypodiacon himself who escorted him to the Othodox Centre and he was asked to leave because the rest was "secret".

Listen I am sorry that I waisted my time trying to proof that I am not a fraud. I am pointing at the moon and you are staring at my finger.

It's not MY problem that you cannot read finnish. It is YOURS. Print it and take it to a translator.

I also know that there are a couple of guys in Poland who are very well acquanted with members of the Finnish Orthodox gay mafia. Those guys would do EVERYTHING to proof that what I am writing are lies.

I am only a fool that I wasted precious time in here.

Bye and I hope one day you wake up from your deep sleep to the reality which is a nightmare, either you want to believe it or not.
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2009, 03:17:06 PM »

An oldie, but a good-ie...

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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 03:28:02 PM »

The blog includes a photocopy from the magazine of the Freemasons.

where?
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2009, 04:22:00 PM »

Here is the page of the blog with the photocopy of the freemason magazine with the report of the Freemason and Orthodox meeting and prayer.

http://theoprovlitos.blogspot.com/2009/05/blog-post.html

In the same post you can see the two covers of the "Orthodox" magazine Aamun Koitto which promote homosexuality as a church issue. I the first issue in 1995 Saints Sergius and Bacchus as described as a homosexual couple, while in the second issue of last December is dedicated to the promotion of homosexual marriages.

As for the name of the Orthodox bishop Ambrosius that was removed TODAY from the program of the gay conference THANK GOD google shows its PREVIOUS version and when you search ambrosius+finland+gay the 4th result in line presents the conference WITH Ambrosius's name and the subject of his speach "shaking hands with each other"


http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=ambrosius+finland+gay&btnG=Search&meta=


EUROPEAN FORUM OF LESBIAN & GAY CHRISTIAN GROUPS 2009Orthodox bishop Ambrosius; Shaking hands with each other, Map of Europe ... General secterary, Father Heikki Huttunen, Ecumenical Counsel of Finland, ...
www.yhteys.org/ef2009b.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages


All orthodox participants come from his diocese.
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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2009, 04:44:18 PM »

Here is the page of the blog with the photocopy of the freemason magazine with the report of the Freemason and Orthodox meeting and prayer.

http://theoprovlitos.blogspot.com/2009/05/blog-post.html
In the same post you can see the two covers of the "Orthodox" magazine Aamun Koitto which promote homosexuality as a church issue. I the first issue in 1995 Saints Sergius and Bacchus as described as a homosexual couple, while in the second issue of last December is dedicated to the promotion of homosexual marriages.
I think the jury's still out on this one until we can get a translation from someone other than you.

As for the name of the Orthodox bishop Ambrosius that was removed TODAY from the program of the gay conference THANK GOD google shows its PREVIOUS version and when you search ambrosius+finland+gay the 4th result in line presents the conference WITH Ambrosius's name and the subject of his speach "shaking hands with each other"


http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=ambrosius+finland+gay&btnG=Search&meta=


EUROPEAN FORUM OF LESBIAN & GAY CHRISTIAN GROUPS 2009Orthodox bishop Ambrosius; Shaking hands with each other, Map of Europe ... General secterary, Father Heikki Huttunen, Ecumenical Counsel of Finland, ...
www.yhteys.org/ef2009b.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages


All orthodox participants come from his diocese.
You already posted this on your other thread about the gay conference.  Let's keep these two issues separate by not cross-posting like this.
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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2009, 06:15:52 PM »

So what's the big deal? Some freemasons assemble in an Orthodox Cultural Centre to discuss about freemasonry and then they participate in Orthodox service of the hours. What is so awfully wrong in this?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 06:17:20 PM by Alpo » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2009, 06:20:29 PM »

So what's the big deal? Some freemasons assemble in an Orthodox Cultural Centre to discuss about freemasonry and then they participate in Orthodox service of the hours. What is so awfully wrong in this?
That an Orthodox Cultural Centre would open its doors to an organization against whom the Orthodox Church has pronounced an anathema with no demand that they repent of their Gnostic heresies?  Huh  I don't know.  I'm hoping someone will enlighten me.
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« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2009, 07:07:35 PM »

That an Orthodox Cultural Centre would open its doors to an organization against whom the Orthodox Church has pronounced an anathema with no demand that they repent of their Gnostic heresies?
Would you also object if some Orthodox Cultural Centre opened it's doors to Lutherans, Muslims or, say, Jews?
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2009, 07:10:19 PM »

Alpo

The Freemasons are FAR from Orthodoxy on any aspect.
1. They have a strong religious background and services
2. They do what they do secretly. And the sons of Light have nothing to do with the sons of darkness
3. they are a master class in the society showing discrimination to those ho are not Fremasons
4. If they are Orthodox then they are a fragment within the body of Christ. You cannot be Freemason and Orthodox at the same time
5. ALL Orthodox churches are very negative against Freemasonry. The Holy Synod of Greece has anathematized Freemasonry. And I supose for some specific reasons. I don't see therefore you or me or anybody else having a better or a wiser opinion than historical Orthodox CHurhce
6. If you visit Riga in Latvia and visti the Town Museum in one section they have photos and symbols and painting from Freemasonery. I assure you that you are going to freak out, becasue you get the.. vibes that all these symbols are evil as if they belonged to satanists.

So in this case you have nothing to do with them in an Orthodox Centre, second the subject of the symposium was in other words the common ground between christianity and Freemasonry so that they will be approach (and this is the most extreme ecumenism there can be) and finaly you just don't pray with masons and disacrate an orthodox chapel, becasue it is as if you pray in an orthodox chapel with budhists.
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« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2009, 07:12:40 PM »

That an Orthodox Cultural Centre would open its doors to an organization against whom the Orthodox Church has pronounced an anathema with no demand that they repent of their Gnostic heresies?
Would you also object if some Orthodox Cultural Centre opened it's doors to Lutherans, Muslims or, say, Jews?
Probably.
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2009, 07:16:54 PM »

It depens on what would be the theme. If it was cooperation for peace yes. or for cultural issues. If it was on dogmatic issues of course not. Becasue a jew or a Muslim are never going to change their faith becasue of a conference. Besides people are being saved as persons and not as a conference representation. Therefore there is nothing that can come out for the profit of Orthodoxy from it. If the Orthodox really want to approch Jews they could just orgnaze a confrence just for the Orthodox and discuss the ways of approcahing them but not in order to become one with them in one terrbile religion where half beleve that Jeus is the Messiaha while the other half reject Him.
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« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2009, 07:25:32 PM »

Alpo, my wife is Finnish and she became Orthodox after 7 years of marriage. So we do have protestant relatives and friends. We can discuss with them and we pray with them e.g. at church table.

But this is a TOTALLY different thing than two churches coming together in a service.

Do not be discouraged from what you read. There are many nice peope, in the Orthdox church of finland. Some of them are simply DISORIENTED. And this is becasue the majority of the Finnish church are converts who didn't have the time to really absorb what orthodoxy is. And they behave as if it were just oen more jurisdictions with different cultural elements. But hey are NOT cultural elements and issues but the experience of previous generations and the enlightment of the Holy Spirit.

The problem begins when instead of transforming the society according to the Church, we transform the Churh according to the society just to make it more "appealing" without realizing that the essence of most things is not cultural but deeply dogmatic and ontological.
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« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2009, 10:43:29 AM »

An oldie, but a good-ie...


A picture is TRULY worth a thousand words. Cheesy
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« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2009, 11:41:25 AM »

Thank you PoorFoolNicholas

This is EXACTLY what Papa Nicholas Planas would be saying if he were you.

You sound like having the zeal of a new convert and the analogous theological arguments as well. A picture indeed is worth 1000 theological words, and reflects the spiritual depth of the one who made it.
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« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2009, 11:53:51 AM »

Thank you PoorFoolNicholas

This is EXACTLY what Papa Nicholas Planas would be saying if he were you.

You sound like having the zeal of a new convert and the analogous theological arguments as well. A picture indeed is worth 1000 theological words, and reflects the spiritual depth of the one who made it.
I'm sorry, I have offended you. I guess I should believe everything that you say at face value. You would be happy then, wouldn't you? I didn't want to admit it, but I am a secret Freemason, out to destroy your work. You caught me. The conspiracy continues to unfold.
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« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2009, 12:21:10 PM »

An oldie, but a good-ie...



Hi Cleveland!   Not sure who is seen as suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

Traits of NPD:  serial bullying, patronizing attitude, arrogant , disdainful, lashes out to destroy others (especially of the opposite sex), harassment to make others pay attention to them.
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« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2009, 12:25:38 PM »

An oldie, but a good-ie...

Hi Cleveland!   Not sure who is seen as suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

The image wasn't meant to be a diagnosis, but rather a joke about those who maintain regular Blogs, that they can regularly be "arrogant, patronizing, disdainful, prone to lashing out, and attempting to force others to pay attention to them."  It's certainly not true of all Bloggers, but in this sense is used as a joke (and certainly not a new one!).
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« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2009, 12:36:26 PM »

Quote
You sound like having the zeal of a new convert and the analogous theological arguments as well. A picture indeed is worth 1000 theological words, and reflects the spiritual depth of the one who made it.

Please Lord , let my little church be filled with of hundreds new converts.  Let us be so overfilled with new converts that we have to build a larger, facility to worship
you!  Please Lord, let all the other struggling parishes be filled with new converts also.

Calling someone a "new convert" is NOT an insult to many on this forum.  Please stop insulting others.

Just fixing a quote tag.  --EofK
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 02:04:57 PM by EofK » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2009, 01:54:26 PM »

An oldie, but a good-ie...


A picture is TRULY worth a thousand words. Cheesy
An oldie, but a good-ie...


A picture is TRULY worth a thousand words. Cheesy

NPD is mental illness. Mental illness is not funny.  This is not funny.
Thank you Theo for starting this thread.   
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« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2009, 02:22:14 PM »

NPD is mental illness. Mental illness is not funny.  This is not funny.

I'm going to say the following with a qualifier: I don't think mental illness is funny.

While defined in both the DSM-IV and the ICD-10, NPD is barely (hardly or "shouldn't be" are also acceptable in this case) a "mental illness."  It is a Personality Disorder, one which is largely un-treatable by medication and therapy specifically because it is not a classic mental illness caused by chemical imbalance or trauma, but is rather the magnification of a specific personality trait (narcissism) through the inadequate rearing of the child.  It is a painful personality disorder to have, for it usually is accompanied by a tremendous inner feeling of lowliness and loneliness; and most frequently, it is also painful for those closest to the affected.

It should be noted that the ICD-10 has a difficult time categorizing NPD; meanwhile, the DSM categorizes it in the B cluster along with other Personality Disorders that involve the excessive sense of self-importance.

While most disorders and mental illnesses are no laughing matter, it is actually a rather interesting observation that a great number of the people who post in the blogosphere could actually be close to a NPD diagnosis according to the DSM (Note: One must show 5 or more of the following traits in order to be diagnosed with NPD - IOW, you only need 5, but I've seen plenty of bloggers that show at least 7):

(instead of remembering what the characteristics are, I'll copy them from Wikipedia)

   1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
   2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
   3. believes that he or she is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, people (or institutions) who are also "special" or of high status.
   4. requires excessive admiration
   5. has a sense of entitlement
   6. is interpersonally exploitative
   7. lacks empathy
   8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
   9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Hence, the image has some stinging truth, and gets brought up on fora in situations where the use of blogs seems to be largely irrelevant, or when it seems to fall into multiple categories outlined above.
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« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2009, 03:21:54 PM »

(instead of remembering what the characteristics are, I'll copy them from Wikipedia)

   1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
   2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
   3. believes that he or she is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, people (or institutions) who are also "special" or of high status.
   4. requires excessive admiration
   5. has a sense of entitlement
   6. is interpersonally exploitative
   7. lacks empathy
   8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
   9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

And these characteristics are bad because...?
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« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2009, 04:07:04 PM »

Dear ora

I am sorry to say that the whole post

"Please Lord , let my little church be filled with of hundreds new converts.  Let us be so overfilled with new converts that we have to build a larger, facility to worship you!  Please Lord, let all the other struggling parishes be filled with new converts also"

reveals to me that you are a convert. There is nothing bad to it and and I should say amen to your prayer. But what you just wrote brings to the mind some TV gospel preacher. I have been to protestant parishes and they were repeating these words while I was born and raised orthodox and nobody ever prays like this. An dthat;'s because people are not sheep to be driven and there is always the FREE WILL that cannot be violated even by God.

In protestant churches it works like someone comes to church, then they count heads, they say who wants to meet the Lord let him come in front and confess it and then he becomes born again and saved.

In the Orthodox Church it does NOT work like this. Hundreds of converts might be catastrophic to a small parish because there is a high risk of a blind man leading a blind. In Orthodoxy people have to struggle till the end to be saved, and they are not saved by being packed with another hundred in a smaller or a larger building. Their mindset should gradually change by the LIVING EXPERIENCE of Orthodoxy which you don't get by pressing a button. For us it was easier because we were raised in such environment and still we fail. No matter we were born Orthodox we still have A LOT to do in order to be trasnformed.

We do that be guidence by spiritual fathers, by elders, by saints, by simple brothers who have alreasy been "there", by dozens of books, by miracles that happened to us or to our friends, by stories our grandparents told us. It is a LIFE struggle and a LIFE experience and still we are far from perfection and deification.

I understand your juvenile enthusiasm of the convert who prays that all of a sudden God pushes by force hundreds to come to your parish. May God Grant! But not in the way you meant it.

I am an eye witness of what is happening in Finland. The Church of Corinthians would BLUSH if they knew what is going on there. And this is because the old people who were Orthodox since the times of the Czar have gradually passed away, mixed marriages has always worked against the Orthodox (becasue the Orthodox wanted to intergrade in a Protestant society) and in the 20 last years Orthodoxy has been rediscovered by protestant Finns who realized that protestantism is shallow while many intellectuals found in Orthodoxy some cultural values that were missing from their church.

However the old tradition was already gone, and in Finland there hasn't been any elder Porhyrios, Paisios, Justin Popovic, Clepo Ilie, Jovan Kristiankin, Sophronie of Essex to pass on the flame or true Orthodoxy to converts.

As a result we have come to this contempoprary TRAGEDY of rejection the Old Testament and the Epistles of the Apostles as "reflecting the conservatism of the past" and introdcution to Orthodoxy not only Protestant dogmas who are responsible for thousands leaving the protestant churches in mass (in Sweden where things move faster the percentage of atheists has grown to huge number) but also the spirit of this world whci is -no doupt demonic.

And this is because the new convert leaders of Finland NEVER had the time (nor the will) to absorb the essence of Orthodoxy. And to make her more appealing they have been changing her dogmas according to secular and lutheran ideas. This with a touch of Finnish nationalism and stubborness (the Finns have the proverb "stubbornly Finn") has lead them to a situation where we should rather start praying that their church DOESN'T grow, because those that they convert they teach them fallacies and heresies. I think THIS is the case where the gospel says: Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

But dear MS Hoora, the Orthodox Church is NOT a department store where one can buy whatever one wants to please oneself, especially one's desires and passions. She doesn't look for hundreds of "clients". She is not "here to satisfy happy customers". The Chruch has also laws and restrictions.

Remember the rich guy who was what we call a "good person" according to the New Age contemporary culture. But when Christ asked him to do something that was against his desires (sell his belongings) he turned around and left.

Obviously those Finnish (converts) DID NOT WISH to "sell their cultural and spiritual belongings" when they converted. And this is how they ended up PREACHING ANOTHER CHRIST.

Welcome to Orthodoxy but please STAY TUNED, because your salvation is not yet completed, as well as nobody else's
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« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2009, 04:11:36 PM »

PoorFoolNicholas

Can you explain to me why you are doing this to yourself?
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« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2009, 04:13:54 PM »

This reveals to me that you are a convert.

This reveals to me that you are an elitist cradle Orthodox.  Saint John Chrysostom, the blessed Archbishop of Constantinople was a convert.  Converts are not second-class Christians, at baptism they become full members of the Church, without exception or suspicion.
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« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2009, 04:55:37 PM »


This reveals to me that you are an elitist cradle Orthodox.  Saint John Chrysostom, the blessed Archbishop of Constantinople was a convert.  Converts are not second-class Christians, at baptism they become full members of the Church, without exception or suspicion.

Alveus Lacuna

To begin with the sentence "this reflects you are a convert" is not a psoitive nor a negative hint> If you see it as negative then maybe this is because YOU see it this way.

St John the Chrysostome did not MADE UP his OWN ideas and tought us NOVELTIES form his backgound but he tought uas with what he RECEIVED from he teachers without trying to proof himself "smart" to them.

Obviously the Bible quote "for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" was not made up by me and I suppose it refers to REAL people.

It is evident that there are various kinds of converts. Some who are HUMBLE and do not try to teach others while they have a long way to run before really becoming Orthodox adn the PROUD who no matter they don't know where they stand and in their minds their is an absolute dogmatic confusion they even have the ARROGANCE to belive that they will eveen become in one night teachers, and even worse, teachers of their teachers, as in the case of the Finnish Orthodox Church.

It is not right from a whole text which I wrote out of good will to MS Hoora as a testimony (and so that a few people would THINK a bit more than crow) to isolate one line and give a negative interpretation to it.

I don't know if you are a convert (my wife is) but you would rather think about WHAT kind of convert you are. Because being a convert doesn't necesserily save you. I really hope that one day you become a second St John Chrysosostome while I would be sorry if you became one of those converts who shamelessly boast that Jesus Christ was gay and that "they know better than Paul the Apostle who was just a conservative and homophobic jew".
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« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2009, 04:56:53 PM »

Someday I hope to visit your very beautiful country.  Maybe some day you will visit my state, Pennsylvania.  I hope you can visit within the
next 10 years because otherwise you will not be able to visit the church that my immigrant grandparents, my parents and my family attends/ed. Without immediate new members it will have to close very soon.  My tiny diocese has closed over 5 churches in the past few years  One of these churches was a BEAUTIFUL cathedral with over a 1000 families less that 80 years ago.  The membership fell to only 8 babushkas.  If my grandchildren stay in this area, it is likely that they will have to drive for hours to attend to an Orthodox church. Unlike some countries, the USA does not provide us
financial support.

Again thank you for your post.
 
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« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2009, 07:13:04 PM »

ms Hoorah

This is so sad. It is happening in europe. You should see what is going on in Amsterdam when they turn churhes to discos. I think that some western churches have fallen into the trap when they saw people leaving. They have been trying to become more and more worldy, believing that this way they would attract people. But in reality it should be the other way. The churh should draw a line and resist "Modernization" and secularization and provide an ALTERNATIVE lifestyle so that thousand sof people who are sick and tired of the spirit of our era would seek refuge and place for tired souls.

This is so sad. People abandoning Christ... But even worse is making up a Christ who DOSN'T exist and preaching ANOTHER Christ. Because no matter what a small flock will exist

"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom"

though it also says

However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

I believe it means both as a number as well as quality of the faithful. Because if the Church gradually becomes as the Church of Corinthians or worse than that -as it ALREADY STARTED HAPPENING- or as some of the Churches of the Apoclaypse where God says that He will remove the lamp from them what is the pint being "Orthodox".

I guess that pretty much for your historical parish being emptied must be urbanization , moving to other states and last but not least mixed marriages where children having two different or even controversial religious backgrounds in a protestant environment and in a secular society no wander they abandon faith.

I should maybe confess to you that though we could be living in Finladn with my family we decided not tomove there. Haalth system there is free. yuo get various subidies from the state, schools and colleges are free, salaries are the double than in Greece. We were even just about to move there. But we didn't! Can you guess why? We were considering the future of our kids. What would they do in a country where the youth absorbs like a sponge all the trush that are produced by the western lifestyle because they want to be "modern". Or how about their faith? What kind of Orthodoxy would they get to know among drunken kids, lesbian couples, freemasons etc. Or what will happen when they would get married to non-orthdox? Their spiritual life will have to strive between controversy or indifference, or dogmatic distrortion. I understand very well the situation of orthodox immigrants in the USA and elsewhere.

And this is why I am so muuch against ecumenism. It is not question of lack of love or interest for someone who believes different things than us, but when we start moving away from waht we have received as correct soon NONE of us will have the truth in any case. Same as mixed weddings. They might live happily in love but in most case thier dogmatic consiousness gradually becomes so lose that in the end it disappears unless the onefrom the coupls decides to follow his spouse's religious beliefs and transmit them to the kids.

Under this persepctive having converts is a BLESSING. But definitely not as you first described or as it happened in Finland, wher enot only they cannot tell what is Orthdox and what isn't but they even believe fallacies to be "Orthodox" revellations.

I wish one day I came to Pensylvania. If you are Orthodox you HAVE to come some day to Greece. You will be... dissapointed but still there are (still) so many things that reflect Orthodoxy as it always has been and not as some people try to make it.
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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2009, 09:23:20 AM »

..It is evident that there are various kinds of converts. Some who are HUMBLE and do not try to teach others while they have a long way to run before really becoming Orthodox adn the PROUD who no matter they don't know where they stand and in their minds their is an absolute dogmatic confusion they even have the ARROGANCE to belive that they will eveen become in one night teachers, and even worse, teachers of their teachers, as in the case of the Finnish Orthodox Church...
...would be sorry if you became one of those converts who shamelessly boast that Jesus Christ was gay and that "they know better than Paul the Apostle who was just a conservative and homophobic jew".
Which type are you then? You seem to have taken a very "I'll teach you what is true, listen to me" position. And I also think that you have some very deep psychological hatred of the Homosexual community, for whatever reason.
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« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2009, 02:05:49 AM »

PoorFoolNicholas

If you are not able to understand the difference with someone being a homosexual and lead his life OUTSIDE the Church, or some one being a homosexual and be inside the Church but practice ORTHODOX VALUES which are CHASTITY, SELF CONTROL, ABSTINENCE, VIRGINITY or someone which is homosexual but has a homosexual sex life however he lives it in PRIVACY, DISCREETLY and the most important: with SELF-AWARENESS, CONFESSION and REPENTANCE 70 TIMES 7, and someone who not only is a homosexual but his is so morally and SPIRITUALY ROTTEN so that he claims that God created 4 sexes, that he BLESSES homosexual relationships, who REJECT THE OLD TESTAMENT and THE EPISTLES because they are antismetic and claims that "these are just ethics of conservative Jews) who introduce GAY WEDDINGS because they do not even understand the THEOLOGY OF MARRIAGE as an Image of Christ adn His Church, the bridegroom and the bride and they turn the church into  a GAY CLUB where EVERYTHING is allowed  then YOU ARE IN THE WRONG FORUM, THE WRONG WEBSITE AND THE WRONG CHURCH.

Please try to find one of those thousands of CULTS who exist in the United State where you can feel yourself at HOME.

It is NOT question of homosexuality, it is question of HERESIES, read my lips HE-RE-SIES introduced to the church from EX-PROTESTANTS , with PROTESTANT or rather HERETICAL theology and LOW MORALS.

These people are DANGEROUS for Orthodoxy and so are obviously you, becasue you are UNABLE to understand.

And if you are unable to understand what I am saying here with SIMPLE words how on earth are you EVER going to understand other more important and complicated dogmas or delicate matters.

As to what kind of person am I. Well to begin with I AM NOT A CONVERT, but I have been WORKING WITH CONVERTS since 20 YEARS NOW. And I can EASILY tell who are going to become REALLY Orthodox some day and who are condemn to remain SPIRITUAL DWARFS. Because not only they CANNOT really absorb the Orthodox spirit or even BASIC CHRISTIAN DOGMAS but they even have the PRIDE TO MISBEHAVE by attacking others who were there HUNDREDS OF YEARS before them about what is Orthodox and what isn't.

Besides PRIDE did you happen to fall upon the word ENVY in the Bible? Or in your Church converts have special Bibles and not those "old fashioned" ones that we use in Greece, Russia, Lebanon, Egypt, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia etc. We who are homophobic fundamentalists.

Because in Finland they DO have their own modern Bible with only a few pages, which is consists only of the words Jesus Himself said. There rest is all "Jewish homophobic and conservative culture".
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« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2009, 03:28:21 AM »

Christ is risen!
Brothers, let us remember we should love our neighbour.
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Asemănându-te obiceiurilor râvnitorului Ilie şi urmând Botezătorului pe drepte cărări, Părinte Antonie, te-ai făcut locuitor pustiului şi ai întărit lumea cu rugăciunile tale. Pentru aceasta, roagă-te lui Hristos Dumnezeu, să mântuiască sufletele noastre.
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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2009, 08:39:08 AM »

PoorFoolNicholas

If you are not able to understand the difference with someone being a homosexual and lead his life OUTSIDE the Church, or some one being a homosexual and be inside the Church but practice ORTHODOX VALUES which are CHASTITY, SELF CONTROL, ABSTINENCE, VIRGINITY or someone which is homosexual but has a homosexual sex life however he lives it in PRIVACY, DISCREETLY and the most important: with SELF-AWARENESS, CONFESSION and REPENTANCE 70 TIMES 7, and someone who not only is a homosexual but his is so morally and SPIRITUALY ROTTEN so that he claims that God created 4 sexes, that he BLESSES homosexual relationships, who REJECT THE OLD TESTAMENT and THE EPISTLES because they are antismetic and claims that "these are just ethics of conservative Jews) who introduce GAY WEDDINGS because they do not even understand the THEOLOGY OF MARRIAGE as an Image of Christ adn His Church, the bridegroom and the bride and they turn the church into  a GAY CLUB where EVERYTHING is allowed  then YOU ARE IN THE WRONG FORUM, THE WRONG WEBSITE AND THE WRONG CHURCH.

Please try to find one of those thousands of CULTS who exist in the United State where you can feel yourself at HOME.

It is NOT question of homosexuality, it is question of HERESIES, read my lips HE-RE-SIES introduced to the church from EX-PROTESTANTS , with PROTESTANT or rather HERETICAL theology and LOW MORALS.

These people are DANGEROUS for Orthodoxy and so are obviously you, becasue you are UNABLE to understand.

And if you are unable to understand what I am saying here with SIMPLE words how on earth are you EVER going to understand other more important and complicated dogmas or delicate matters.

As to what kind of person am I. Well to begin with I AM NOT A CONVERT, but I have been WORKING WITH CONVERTS since 20 YEARS NOW. And I can EASILY tell who are going to become REALLY Orthodox some day and who are condemn to remain SPIRITUAL DWARFS. Because not only they CANNOT really absorb the Orthodox spirit or even BASIC CHRISTIAN DOGMAS but they even have the PRIDE TO MISBEHAVE by attacking others who were there HUNDREDS OF YEARS before them about what is Orthodox and what isn't.

Besides PRIDE did you happen to fall upon the word ENVY in the Bible? Or in your Church converts have special Bibles and not those "old fashioned" ones that we use in Greece, Russia, Lebanon, Egypt, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia etc. We who are homophobic fundamentalists.

Because in Finland they DO have their own modern Bible with only a few pages, which is consists only of the words Jesus Himself said. There rest is all "Jewish homophobic and conservative culture".
You are right. I must be a homosexual, who NEEDS to join a cult. Thank you for enlightening me of that fact. It is all so clear now. I remember reading the Old Testament Book of Theoprovlitos the Prophet. If I had paid more attention to that book I would definitely be able to understand more, especially the part where it talks about converts being deficient compared to those whose families have been Orthodox for centuries. How can I be so blind? Pray for me Oh, Prophet of the Most High.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2009, 01:53:44 PM »


You are right. I must be a homosexual, who NEEDS to join a cult. Thank you for enlightening me of that fact. It is all so clear now. I remember reading the Old Testament Book of Theoprovlitos the Prophet. If I had paid more attention to that book I would definitely be able to understand more, especially the part where it talks about converts being deficient compared to those whose families have been Orthodox for centuries. How can I be so blind? Pray for me Oh, Prophet of the Most High.

You're so funny. Which is ok. But it is also ok being serious occasionally.

Sometimes I feel that I have to argue with a youth group who is zealous defending its new faith, as if it were in need of defenders. Anyway I've been there where you are and one day you will come where I am when you will realize that faith and Orthodoxy is not an idealistic perseption but a constant fight and a struggle between good and evil which exists outside her as well as inside her. Remember that Judas was one of Christ's desciples and the Evangelists never tried to cover up scandals or misbehaviours WITHIN the Church. And it is exactly for this reason why the Bible is considered to be a trustworthy historical book and not a nice story of beautiful people.

Remember that Lot after the destruction of Sodom had sex with his daughters and even children from them. This fact was not hidden from the Bible, however never anyone would claim that incest is a blessed practice from God unless he is really sick minded.

You have to see the limits between what is considered to be real faith and what is a whitewashed unrealistic image of it, so that we will be feeling well in it.

In the first case you will be stable in faith no matter what. In the second case sooner or later you will be disillusioned.
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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2009, 02:02:39 PM »

Sometimes I feel that I have to argue with a youth group who is zealous defending its new faith, as if it were in need of defenders. Anyway I've been there where you are and one day you will come where I am when you will realize that faith and Orthodoxy is not an idealistic perseption but a constant fight and a struggle between good and evil which exists outside her as well as inside her.
The least you could do is not contradict yourself when posting.
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« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2009, 02:25:18 PM »

And one GENERAL comment

I have come to the conclusion that Orthodox chat rooms and forums are ABSOLUTELY unsuitbale and contrary to the Orthodox spirit. Because a few of the Orthodox values are DISCERNMENT and DISPENSATION. So when you write in a form to an anonymus person you cannot know if he is a teenage zealot, or a convert, or someone of weak faith, or a homosexual struggling with his tendency or a heretic or a sexual offender, or a preist or an immature personality, or someone with psychological problems and so on.

Therefore your views (my news in this case) my irritate, or scandalize or simply touch the sensitive chords of some people who for one reason ot another, excusably or inexcusably cannot stand the truth or some facts at this certain moment. You just don't tell someone something in the very same way that you would say it to another if you knew him or you would see him face to face. How can I know whether you are a young enthusiastic man or a middle-aged person who came to Orthodoxy after a middle age crisis?

In this case, sorry MY fault that I entered this forum after all as well as any other forum. However all I have written are 100% true, while my views reflect the same ideas with mnay important people who hold important positions in various churches and whose names are not to be published for obvious reasons. My aim was to bring awareness of THE SIGNS OF OUT TIMES being fulfilled.

Forgive me if I caused you a scandal but my biggest mistake was my participation in a forum for the first and probably the last time in my life. I would suggest the same to other people because arguements are usually soul-damaging.

However to those insisting that homosexuality is not a sin nor a psychological or emotional or spiritual or physical disorder but a blessed by God practice, do nothing more than confirm that the signs of the times are true.

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« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2009, 02:29:23 PM »


The least you could do is not contradict yourself when posting.

Nicholas, I am affraid you cannot even conceive the spiritual sense of the word "fight". I suppose we were not discussing in here about which ws the best football team for 2009.
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« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2009, 03:35:30 PM »

I heard that at this Mason-Orthodox meeting, they are doing their Vespers with organs and rock guitars...

Anyway Theoprovlitos, I can appreciate your zeal for what is truly Orthodox, but you have to realize that this forum sees about ten thousand trolls a year and they all come on with their doomsday forecasts just like you.  The Orthodox Church does not support homosexual activity and it never will.  If the Finnish Orthodox Church really tries to push this agenda, then the other churches will break communion with her and she will cease to be Orthodox until she repents.

I think that some people have a problem with your tone because you seem to be exuding a hatred for the homosexuals themselves as people, and not for the inappropriateness of the action itself.  Now it is true that the things that we do define who we are, but to hate a homosexual for any reason is unacceptable.  We as Christians are called to love our enemies.  That does not mean that the Church should ever approve of homosexual activity or condone it, for the laity or the clergy.  Being a struggling homosexual and Orthodox is fine, as long as one is struggling to repent and does not live in abomination with pride.  There is a difference.

Concerning me being a convert, I am still a catechumen, and I in no way intend to inform the Church how to run Her business at this point.  The most complaining I have done has been over pews, but that's really all.  I am trying to just shut up and learn, which is why I can on here initially; to ask questions about the faith.  In reality the forum seems to be a place where I waste a lot of time that should be spent in prayer or at services.  But many things about have been a blessing and helpful, so I won't whine too much.  Stay strong in your zeal for true Orthodoxy, but also please beware getting puffed up by the passions.  There is a difference between righteousness and self-righteousness; sanctity and sanctimony!  Don't be so angry.  Lead those around you back to the truth of the Orthodox faith in love!  Forgive me for presuming to give advice to someone who has been in the true Church their whole life, but also remember that I myself have been a Christian for my whole short life (26 years), and that hopefully I have many things to offer the Church myself, without trying to change Her. 

Forgive me for accusing you of being superior to converts, it's just that I have already seen this attitude displayed in some circles and it really upsets me.  All I want is to be a part of the Church; to taste Her mysteries.  I am not even a part of Her yet, and some online have already made me feel like a second-class citizen.  At any rate, forgive me!
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2009, 04:28:49 PM »

I heard that at this Mason-Orthodox meeting, they are doing their Vespers with organs and rock guitars...

Anyway Theoprovlitos, I can appreciate your zeal for what is truly Orthodox, but you have to realize that this forum sees about ten thousand trolls a year and they all come on with their doomsday forecasts just like you.  The Orthodox Church does not support homosexual activity and it never will.  If the Finnish Orthodox Church really tries to push this agenda, then the other churches will break communion with her and she will cease to be Orthodox until she repents.

I think that some people have a problem with your tone because you seem to be exuding a hatred for the homosexuals themselves as people, and not for the inappropriateness of the action itself.  Now it is true that the things that we do define who we are, but to hate a homosexual for any reason is unacceptable.  We as Christians are called to love our enemies.  That does not mean that the Church should ever approve of homosexual activity or condone it, for the laity or the clergy.  Being a struggling homosexual and Orthodox is fine, as long as one is struggling to repent and does not live in abomination with pride.  There is a difference.

Concerning me being a convert, I am still a catechumen, and I in no way intend to inform the Church how to run Her business at this point.  The most complaining I have done has been over pews, but that's really all.  I am trying to just shut up and learn, which is why I can on here initially; to ask questions about the faith.  In reality the forum seems to be a place where I waste a lot of time that should be spent in prayer or at services.  But many things about have been a blessing and helpful, so I won't whine too much.  Stay strong in your zeal for true Orthodoxy, but also please beware getting puffed up by the passions.  There is a difference between righteousness and self-righteousness; sanctity and sanctimony!  Don't be so angry.  Lead those around you back to the truth of the Orthodox faith in love!  Forgive me for presuming to give advice to someone who has been in the true Church their whole life, but also remember that I myself have been a Christian for my whole short life (26 years), and that hopefully I have many things to offer the Church myself, without trying to change Her. 

Forgive me for accusing you of being superior to converts, it's just that I have already seen this attitude displayed in some circles and it really upsets me.  All I want is to be a part of the Church; to taste Her mysteries.  I am not even a part of Her yet, and some online have already made me feel like a second-class citizen.  At any rate, forgive me!

No hard feelings Alveus
The Mystery of the Church and of salvation is something that we ALL learn till we die. It is just that some of us chronologically went this path before without this meaning that those who took that path later cannot not only catch up put even SURPASS those walking ahead. Not to mention that some who are leading can lose their way at a certain moment and never find it again.

It is undertood to me that anybody could write about anything in a forum, even that he saw Elvis Pristley as a saint but I adopted this "tone" when I felt that I was being scorned by a gang while I was trying to get some help. I suppose that I didn't enter this forum because I ws looking somebody to quarrel with. Besides I was upset not because some guys were implying that I am a fraud but they were questioning the validity of the facts themselves.

As to your convertion to Orthodoxy, you know I have known this procedure in my family with the gradual transformation of my wife which took 7 years. I have even seen MIRACLES with other converts too, such as the appearance of Andrew the Apostle to an Italian exRoman Catholic friend in the Monastery of Vatopaidi just after his baptism, to reassure him that this was a wise desision to make.

If I may have something to say to candidate converts then this is it: It is not question that they will perish becasue they are Roman catholics for example. But Christ told to the rich young man who was a moral person and was keeping all the letters of the law: If you want to become PERFECT sell your belongings and follow me.

So if becoming Orthodox is not question of salvation it definitely is question of perfection as Christ Himself encourages to seek for. And obviously our old faith is one of those "belongings" that we would have to sell away in order to have treasure in heaven.

God bless you
Nicholas
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