20 Torments

[Pap]

Is this what the Orthodox Church believes?
http://members.fortunecity.com/peterpap/

[cholmes]

I don't believe it is an official teaching of the Church (correct me if I'm wrong), but I've never heard of it being denounced either.  It seems rather similar to the Toll House idea.

[Pap]

The question was rhetorical.  Unfortunately it is an official teaching of the Orthodox  Church.
When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.
He also said that the “20 Torments” causes a lot of friction in the Church because the whole notion of the Torments is scary and not many people are prepared to accept its content. He quickly went on to the next question
My dear friends
The 20 Torments contradicts what the Bible teaches and the whole reason Christ became a man to die for our sins.
For those who haven’t read the story, I’ll paraphrase it.
 Saint Gregory had a dream that St Theodora told him what happened when she died.
First a multitude of Ethiopians tried to take her soul but was saved by some beautiful white Angels. (The Ethiopians represent the Demons. St Theodora is a racist).
These Caucasian Angels took her to the Torments

First Torment. Here the souls are tormented for the sins of idle speech. The Angels traded her good deeds for bad but because she didn’t have enough good deeds, the angels offered some treasures (prayers) from St Basil. So she passed the first Torment.

Second Torment. "The Torment of lying”. Again she paid her way with good deeds and some prayers from St Basil.

Third Torment." speaking evil of others and spreading rumours about them”.   Dito

Fourth Torment. " gluttony”

Fifth Torment- " sloth”

Sixth Torment. – “stealing”

Seventh Torment. " passed without stopping through the station of avarice and love of money.

Ninth Torment. "Now there lay before us the torment of injustice.

Tenth Torment. "As for the torment of envy, w
she passed it without giving anything at all in payment, for Ishe never had been envious. 

Theodora asked the angel leaders: 'Tell me how can these terrible rulers of the air know in such detail all the evil deeds of men, and not only the open ones but even those that are secret?" The angels replied: 'Every Christian, as soon as he is baptised, receives from God an appointed guardian angel who guards him invisibly and inspires him night and day to every kind of good deed; he also records all his good deeds, for which that man later can hope to receive from the Lord grace and eternal recompense in the Heavenly Kingdom. The prince of darkness, who desires to draw into his own destruction the whole race of men as well, also appoints one of his evil spirits to walk in the man's steps and record all his evil deeds. It is his duty to inspire man to such deeds by any vile trickery in his power; and when he succeeds in his designs, he records all the wickedness of which the man has made himself guilty. Such an evil spirit spreads the report of every man's sins to all the stations of torment, and this is how the sins become known to the princes of the air. When the soul parts from its body and desires to go to its Creator in heaven, the evil spirits prevent the soul and show to it its sins. If the soul has done more good deeds than evil, they cannot keep it; but if the sins outweigh the good deeds, they keep the soul for some time, shut it up in the prison where it cannot know God, and torment it as much as God's power allows them, until that soul, by means of prayers of the Church and good deeds done for its sake by those who are still on earth, should be granted forgiveness.
"Those who believe in the Holy Trinity and take as frequently as possible the Holy Communion of the Holy Mysteries of Christ our Saviour's Body and Blood--such people can rise to heaven directly, with no hindrances, and the holy angels defend them, and the holy saints of God pray for their salvation, since they have lived righteously. No one, however, takes care of the wicked and depraved heretics, who do nothing useful during their lives, and live in disbelief and heresy. The angels can say nothing in their defence.
"When a soul proves to be so sinful and impure before God that it has no hope of salvation, the evil spirits immediately bring it down into the abyss, where their own place of eternal torment is also. There the lost souls are kept until the time of the Lord's Second Coming. Then they will unite with their bodies and will incur torment in the fiery hell together with the devils 'Note also,' said the angels, 'that this is the way by which only those who are enlightened by the faith and by holy baptism can rise and be tested in the stations of torment. The unbelievers do not come here. Their souls belong to hell even before they part from their bodies. When they die the devils take their souls with no need to test them. Such souls are their proper prey, and they take them down to the abyss.'

THIS IS NOT BIBLICAL. Christ holds the book NOT Satan.
Theodora passed all 20 Torments with Basils help and her good deeds.


Jesus taught us that it is our Faith in Him that will save us and NOT our deeds. Our deeds are merely the proof of our faith. Jesus never ever taught that we must pray for our dead and that our prayers can help the dead.
This whole 20 Torments story is a fairy tale.
If we were to believe this story we would also believe that when a murderer dies, he can be saved if he has enough people praying for him and if a petty thief dies he will burn for ever if he had no friends. This Fairy Tale was written a long long time ago before the Bible was accessible by all men (and women). Now that we know the truth (By reading our Bibles) why doesn’t the Church dismiss this belief as heresy and stop praying to and for the dead and dismiss Theodora. Basil and Gregory as Heretics and NOT Saints?

 Because Fr. Chris has indicated that you haven't privately messaged him the name of the priest that he asked for, you are being placed on Post Moderation (duration: indefinite) until you PM him the name.  The name will be held in the strictest confidence, but it must be provided in order to validate your claims.

Thank you for your consideration.  Please PM Fr. Chris.

- Cleveland, Global Moderator

[FrChris]

When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.

Please provide within 48 hours a source for this assertion, naming the person you are stating teaches this as well as the date and location of this lecture.

+FrChris
Admin

[PeterTheAleut]

I don't believe it is an official teaching of the Church (correct me if I'm wrong), but I've never heard of it being denounced either.  It seems rather similar to the Toll House idea.

I don't believe the Orthodox Church believes, teaches, or promulgates in any official manner any teaching based on private revelation.  The only doctrines officially binding on our faith are those doctrines based on the public teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

[LBK]

Umm, Pap, last time I checked, praying for the salvation of the souls of the dead was an integral part of Orthodox practice, both in one's personal devotions, and in public liturgical life through the conducting of funerals and memorials for the dead.

As for the 20 Torments, I leave it to others more learned than myself to comment on this. I suspect, though, that it is a theologoumenon, and not a fixed doctrine of the Orthodox Church, much like the Toll Houses idea, as cholmes said.

[Pap]

When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.

Please provide within 48 hours a source for this assertion, naming the person you are stating teaches this as well as the date and location of this lecture.

+FrChris
Admin

You should know better than that. This man is often punnished for speaking the truth. He is so careful not to be photographed near women at functions in case of scandals. He won't speak if there is a recording device in the building etc.
He once dissagreed with a particular person high in the Church in public and was sent to a third world country as punishment. I can not/will not give you his name. If you don't believe me, do a search on the 20 torments. Untill recently it was on line at several Orthodox sites. Look it up

[Quinault]

If it is so easy to access your source then there should be no problem sharing his name.

[Pap]

OK! Let us all shoot the messanger.
Dreaming

Since it's so hard for you guys, I'll do mthe searching online.

Here is the first link

http://www.orthodox.net/confess/confession-20-torments.html

I'll keep searching

[Quinault]

The only thing I could find was in reference to preparation for confession.
http://www.orthodox.net/confess/confession-20-torments.html

Preparation for Confession

I, a sinful soul, confess to our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, all of my evil acts which I have done, said or thought from baptism even unto this present day.  

[GabrieltheCelt]

First off Pap, welcome to the forum. 

I don't believe anyone is "shooting the messenger"; asking for clarification and/or sources is pretty normal really.  But now, there's three reasons for us not to take you seriously.

1. You came here not to discuss, but to chastise (and you did it with in a mock sincere manner)

2. You wigged out when asked for your sources.  This is typically a red flag, for future reference.  As Quinalt said, if it were so easily accessible, why not just save everyone the time and trouble?

3. The site you listed has absolutely nothing to do with what you're asserting.  Did you even bother to actually read what you cited? 

You're welcome to hang with us as long as you want, friend.  Just try and be a little more prepared next time you ask a "rhetorical" question. 

[Pap]

Link number 2
http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/theodora.aspx

[Pap]

Here is a politicaly correct version where the Ethiopians have been replaced with evil spirits

http://www.antiochian.org/node/17211

[Pap]

Please compare these to the Holy Scriptures (The Bible). Pray about it and then comment.

[Quinault]

OK. So I have a question- Are you an Orthodox Christian? Are you seeking out the truth of Orthodox theology or are you here to debate? We need to know from what angle you are coming to this discussion so it can proceed accordingly. Either you are coming from a position of gaining knowledge or you are coming from the angle of debate. So which one is it?


And "pray about it" seems really insulting to a faith that has existed for thousands of years

[FrChris]

Pap,

NONE of the links you have provided have backed up the statement you have made, which is:

When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.

So, once again, I want to know:

1. Who said that it is official belief, but not taught.
2. When this person said this that you claim.
3. Where this person said this.

+FrChris
Admin

[Michał]

The question was rhetorical.

You seem not to understand what a rhetorical question is.

[PeterTheAleut]

When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.

Please provide within 48 hours a source for this assertion, naming the person you are stating teaches this as well as the date and location of this lecture.

+FrChris
Admin

You should know better than that.

Just in case you're wondering, when a moderator or admin posts in bolded green text like this, this is a formal moderatorial request and is not open to public discussion.

-PeterTheAleut
Moderator

[Pap]

First of all, the heading here is Free-For-All (Discussion of hot topics that may be of a polemical nature.)

To me it reads that the people posting here have thick skin, but judging from your request it is the opposite.
The gentleman who I was referring to is a true gentleman and does not need to be named on such a forum. I said he was once punished severely for disagreeing with the hierarchy in the past and is now very careful with what he says, where he says it and who he is seen with. I will not cause him any more grief. He is the Godliest Greek Orthodox man I have ever met and he is doing great work in the mission field at the moment and does not need this.
Even if he was wrong, the previous links do show that Saint Theodora’s travels to paradise via the 20 Torments are teachings of the church. May I suggest that you study the topic and not persist on identifying a fine and Godly old man who is only a messenger of Orthodoxy.

The date was approximately 13 years ago and the location was in a theological college somewhere that will identify the man.

[FrChris]

First of all, the heading here is Free-For-All (Discussion of hot topics that may be of a polemical nature.)

To me it reads that the people posting here have thick skin, but judging from your request it is the opposite.

Whatever... Now, to the point:

The gentleman who I was referring to is a true gentleman and does not need to be named on such a forum. I said he was once punished severely for disagreeing with the hierarchy in the past and is now very careful with what he says, where he says it and who he is seen with.

The fact that he apparently 'disagrees with the hierarchy' indicates that he is not teaching something that the Church considers as being true. As pointed out by other posts, theologoumena is being presented, which means it is not dogma.

Even if he was wrong, the previous links do show that Saint Theodora’s travels to paradise via the 20 Torments are teachings of the church.

Please show me where any of those articles you quoted refer to an Ecumenical Council indicating that what is expressed is the actual dogma of the Orthodox Church.

The date was approximately 13 years ago and the location was in a theological college somewhere that will identify the man.

Then, you can discretely communicate this to me. I am a Greek Orthodox priest, and so should contact him anyway to see how I can help him in his mission field, and perhaps follow his worthy example.

[Pap]

Well. The second link that tells the story of Theodora is from the Orthodox Christian Information Centre. Here is what they have to say

As the Webmaster, in addition to the "mission statement" on the home page, I would like to make some remarks about the orientation of this site. It is my opinion that the articles you will find on my site are entirely faithful to Orthodox Tradition. It goes without saying, however, that I do not presume to speak for the Orthodox Church. This is, in fact, the role of the entire Body—"...

Why don't you repremand them? Why must you insist on bothering a Godly old man who works tirelesly for GOD?

[FrChris]

What do you  not understand about the quote you provided?

Well. The second link that tells the story of Theodora is from the Orthodox Christian Information Centre. Here is what they have to say

As the Webmaster, in addition to the "mission statement" on the home page, I would like to make some remarks about the orientation of this site. It is my opinion that the articles you will find on my site are entirely faithful to Orthodox Tradition. It goes without saying, however, that I do not presume to speak for the Orthodox Church. This is, in fact, the role of the entire Body—"...

I have underlined the quote section that states the author does not speak for the Orthodox Church, which indicates that this discussion of the "20 Torments" is not dogma.

Why don't you repremand them? Why must you insist on bothering a Godly old man who works tirelesly for GOD?

First off, you have not yet been reprimanded...yet. But if you do not provide me the information requested, you will be.

Secondly, why on earth would I reprimand somebody on a website that I am not associated with?

Thirdly, are you describing yourself as a "Godly old man who works tirelessly for GOD"  or this person you have alleged is teaching this?

And, if he were "tirelessly working for GOD" then he should not mind me contacting him.

If he actually said this...

[cholmes]

First off Pap, welcome to the forum. 

I don't believe anyone is "shooting the messenger"; asking for clarification and/or sources is pretty normal really.  But now, there's three reasons for us not to take you seriously.

1. You came here not to discuss, but to chastise (and you did it with in a mock sincere manner)

2. You wigged out when asked for your sources.  This is typically a red flag, for future reference.  As Quinalt said, if it were so easily accessible, why not just save everyone the time and trouble?

3. The site you listed has absolutely nothing to do with what you're asserting.  Did you even bother to actually read what you cited? 

You're welcome to hang with us as long as you want, friend.  Just try and be a little more prepared next time you ask a "rhetorical" question. 

#4 - Pap's username is suspiciously similar to the URL of the first site he provided, and his subsequent links pretty much all just relate the same story.

[Pap]

....why on earth would I reprimand somebody on a website that I am not associated with?

If I name him on a public forum, his career will be ended

.......are you describing yourself as a "Godly old man who works tirelessly for GOD"  or this person you have alleged is teaching this?

Me??? Hahaha! NO!  Him

And, if he were "tirelessly working for GOD" then he should not mind me contacting him.

Have we met sir? Do I have your credentials. Do you honestly expect me to post or PM you his details?
If so, can I interest you in some Nigerian money that my uncle has hidden in a secret bank acount?

[GabrieltheCelt]

This should be fun; glad I got my ticket for this. 

[Pap]

Pap's username is suspiciously similar to the URL of the first site he provided, and his subsequent links pretty much all just relate the same story.

Very observant. Yes, I can not tell a lie. It was me that posted the 20 Torments several years ago in an attempt to run a web page dedicated to the lies that the Orthodox Church teaches, whether it be Dogma or Theologumena.
BTW Theologumena means, "as told by GOD"
The hundred or so other sites must have coppied my page. Hahahahah!

[FrChris]

....why on earth would I reprimand somebody on a website that I am not associated with?

If I name him on a public forum, his career will be ended

Then, as I mentioned before but you ignored...describe him in a private message to me.

And, if he were "tirelessly working for GOD" then he should not mind me contacting him.

Have we met sir? Do I have your credentials. Do you honestly expect me to post or PM you his details?

We have not yet met. However, it is well known that I am a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, serving in Jackson, MS. I invite members of this forum to vouch for me in this regard.

[Pap]

Mat 18:15-17  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

He is my 'Brother" (spiritual). You have not met him. I will talk to him. What shall I say?

[GabrieltheCelt]

 However, it is well known that I am a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, serving in Jackson, MS. I invite members of this forum to vouch for me in this regard.

I hope to meet you someday, Father.  For now though, this is proof enough for me. 

http://www.goarch.org/parishes/parish_results

[FrChris]

Mat 18:15-17  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

He is my 'Brother" (spiritual). You have not met him. I will talk to him. What shall I say?

But...if this brother is making statements that are not supported by the Church, then it is folks such as I that should 'tell him his fault'.

But you would only identify this person to me if you actually believed in doing what Scripture instructs us to do. Clearly you do not believe in following Scripture!

[antiderivative]

One thing I've noticed is that this story you have presented us is based off of Toll Houses. Toll Houses are not official dogma in the Orthodox Church, therefore it would be impossible for this to be official dogma, since it is reliant on the existence Toll Houses.

Furthermore, this holy man you describe, who also happens to be a member of the church "that teaches lies" cannot represent the whole Church. If the Church is at some sort of animosity towards him then we are left to wonder why, especially since you won't tell us who he is. Could you provide another source saying this is official Orthodox dogma other than some mysterious reclusive Greek Orthodox guy who is apparently in danger for some unknown reason?

[Pap]

If toll houses are not dogma, what are they?

[PeterTheAleut]

Have we met sir? Do I have your credentials. Do you honestly expect me to post or PM you his details?

We have not yet met. However, it is well known that I am a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, serving in Jackson, MS. I invite members of this forum to vouch for me in this regard.

Result of a goarch website search for Fr. Christopher Harner, the admin of this discussion forum:  http://www.goarch.org/parishes/GOA-1404

I think this information should be enough to show that Fr. Chris is indeed whom he says he is.

[Entscheidungsproblem]

If toll houses are not dogma, what are they?

Theologoumenon.

[antiderivative]

If toll houses are not dogma, what are they?

For lack of a better word you could say they are theory. Not everyone in the Orthodox Church believes in Toll Houses, and those who do don't have to believe in this story. I don't even think Toll Houses have been discussed in any Church councils (someone here would know more about that than I do).

[FrChris]

If toll houses are not dogma, what are they?

Are you not paying attention to this thread? This was discussed in the very first reply to your original post:

I don't believe it is an official teaching of the Church (correct me if I'm wrong), but I've never heard of it being denounced either.  It seems rather similar to the Toll House idea.

[Pap]

So why is there so much confusion over this and other topics?

[Pap]

Is praying for the salvation of our dead a Theologoumenon or is it Dogma?

[PeterTheAleut]

Is praying for the salvation of our dead a Theologoumenon or is it Dogma?

How is the fact that we pray for the salvation of the dead proof of the "dogma" of the toll houses or the Twenty Torments?  We pray for the dead because we believe our prayers somehow benefit them.  What SPECIFIC benefit our prayers offer the dead has not been defined authoritatively, to my knowledge.

[Pap]

We pray for the dead because of such teachings as the toll houses/20 torments.
Praying for the dead is not found in the Bible.

[Alveus Lacuna]

For lack of a better word you could say they are theory.

I don't know about a theory, but maybe somewhere between a theory and a hypothesis.

[PeterTheAleut]

We pray for the dead because of such teachings as the toll houses/20 torments.

That's not why I was taught to pray for the dead.

Praying for the dead is not found in the Bible.

I suppose you haven't read 2 Maccabees 12:43-45, then.

[Pap]

Isn't  2 Maccabees Deuetocanonical?

[FrChris]

Isn't  2 Maccabees Deuetocanonical?

Nope. It's part of the LXX, so it is part of the canonical Scriptures for the Orthodox Chruch.

[Pap]

I asked this same question when I was studying and was told it is Deuetocanonical, so we only use it for historical reference , not theological. But if you are going to insist on who said that I don't remember. But If the Church insists that it is now Dogma, I believe it is only because it suits what they believe.

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Free-For-All > Religious Topics (Moderator: minasoliman) > Topic: 20 Torments