OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 12:43:57 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: 20 Torments  (Read 10003 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« on: May 11, 2009, 07:19:03 AM »

Is this what the Orthodox Church believes?
http://members.fortunecity.com/peterpap/
Logged
cholmes
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 146



« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2009, 02:22:48 PM »

I don't believe it is an official teaching of the Church (correct me if I'm wrong), but I've never heard of it being denounced either.  It seems rather similar to the Toll House idea.
Logged

Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2009, 06:57:30 PM »

The question was rhetorical.  Unfortunately it is an official teaching of the Orthodox  Church.
When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.
He also said that the “20 Torments” causes a lot of friction in the Church because the whole notion of the Torments is scary and not many people are prepared to accept its content. He quickly went on to the next question
My dear friends
The 20 Torments contradicts what the Bible teaches and the whole reason Christ became a man to die for our sins.
For those who haven’t read the story, I’ll paraphrase it.
 Saint Gregory had a dream that St Theodora told him what happened when she died.
First a multitude of Ethiopians tried to take her soul but was saved by some beautiful white Angels. (The Ethiopians represent the Demons. St Theodora is a racist).
These Caucasian Angels took her to the Torments

First Torment. Here the souls are tormented for the sins of idle speech. The Angels traded her good deeds for bad but because she didn’t have enough good deeds, the angels offered some treasures (prayers) from St Basil. So she passed the first Torment.

Second Torment. "The Torment of lying”. Again she paid her way with good deeds and some prayers from St Basil.

Third Torment." speaking evil of others and spreading rumours about them”.   Dito

Fourth Torment. " gluttony”

Fifth Torment- " sloth”

Sixth Torment. – “stealing”

Seventh Torment. " passed without stopping through the station of avarice and love of money.

Ninth Torment. "Now there lay before us the torment of injustice.

Tenth Torment. "As for the torment of envy, w
she passed it without giving anything at all in payment, for Ishe never had been envious. 

Theodora asked the angel leaders: 'Tell me how can these terrible rulers of the air know in such detail all the evil deeds of men, and not only the open ones but even those that are secret?" The angels replied: 'Every Christian, as soon as he is baptised, receives from God an appointed guardian angel who guards him invisibly and inspires him night and day to every kind of good deed; he also records all his good deeds, for which that man later can hope to receive from the Lord grace and eternal recompense in the Heavenly Kingdom. The prince of darkness, who desires to draw into his own destruction the whole race of men as well, also appoints one of his evil spirits to walk in the man's steps and record all his evil deeds. It is his duty to inspire man to such deeds by any vile trickery in his power; and when he succeeds in his designs, he records all the wickedness of which the man has made himself guilty. Such an evil spirit spreads the report of every man's sins to all the stations of torment, and this is how the sins become known to the princes of the air. When the soul parts from its body and desires to go to its Creator in heaven, the evil spirits prevent the soul and show to it its sins. If the soul has done more good deeds than evil, they cannot keep it; but if the sins outweigh the good deeds, they keep the soul for some time, shut it up in the prison where it cannot know God, and torment it as much as God's power allows them, until that soul, by means of prayers of the Church and good deeds done for its sake by those who are still on earth, should be granted forgiveness.
"Those who believe in the Holy Trinity and take as frequently as possible the Holy Communion of the Holy Mysteries of Christ our Saviour's Body and Blood--such people can rise to heaven directly, with no hindrances, and the holy angels defend them, and the holy saints of God pray for their salvation, since they have lived righteously. No one, however, takes care of the wicked and depraved heretics, who do nothing useful during their lives, and live in disbelief and heresy. The angels can say nothing in their defence.
"When a soul proves to be so sinful and impure before God that it has no hope of salvation, the evil spirits immediately bring it down into the abyss, where their own place of eternal torment is also. There the lost souls are kept until the time of the Lord's Second Coming. Then they will unite with their bodies and will incur torment in the fiery hell together with the devils 'Note also,' said the angels, 'that this is the way by which only those who are enlightened by the faith and by holy baptism can rise and be tested in the stations of torment. The unbelievers do not come here. Their souls belong to hell even before they part from their bodies. When they die the devils take their souls with no need to test them. Such souls are their proper prey, and they take them down to the abyss.'

THIS IS NOT BIBLICAL. Christ holds the book NOT Satan.
Theodora passed all 20 Torments with Basils help and her good deeds.


Jesus taught us that it is our Faith in Him that will save us and NOT our deeds. Our deeds are merely the proof of our faith. Jesus never ever taught that we must pray for our dead and that our prayers can help the dead.
This whole 20 Torments story is a fairy tale.
If we were to believe this story we would also believe that when a murderer dies, he can be saved if he has enough people praying for him and if a petty thief dies he will burn for ever if he had no friends. This Fairy Tale was written a long long time ago before the Bible was accessible by all men (and women). Now that we know the truth (By reading our Bibles) why doesn’t the Church dismiss this belief as heresy and stop praying to and for the dead and dismiss Theodora. Basil and Gregory as Heretics and NOT Saints?

 Because Fr. Chris has indicated that you haven't privately messaged him the name of the priest that he asked for, you are being placed on Post Moderation (duration: indefinite) until you PM him the name.  The name will be held in the strictest confidence, but it must be provided in order to validate your claims.

Thank you for your consideration.  Please PM Fr. Chris.

- Cleveland, Global Moderator
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 07:08:10 PM by cleveland » Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2009, 07:04:37 PM »


When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.


Please provide within 48 hours a source for this assertion, naming the person you are stating teaches this as well as the date and location of this lecture.

+FrChris
Admin
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2009, 07:06:36 PM »

I don't believe it is an official teaching of the Church (correct me if I'm wrong), but I've never heard of it being denounced either.  It seems rather similar to the Toll House idea.
I don't believe the Orthodox Church believes, teaches, or promulgates in any official manner any teaching based on private revelation.  The only doctrines officially binding on our faith are those doctrines based on the public teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 07:10:04 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,147


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2009, 07:07:20 PM »

Umm, Pap, last time I checked, praying for the salvation of the souls of the dead was an integral part of Orthodox practice, both in one's personal devotions, and in public liturgical life through the conducting of funerals and memorials for the dead.

As for the 20 Torments, I leave it to others more learned than myself to comment on this. I suspect, though, that it is a theologoumenon, and not a fixed doctrine of the Orthodox Church, much like the Toll Houses idea, as cholmes said.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 07:07:44 PM by LBK » Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2009, 07:36:41 PM »


When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.


Please provide within 48 hours a source for this assertion, naming the person you are stating teaches this as well as the date and location of this lecture.

+FrChris
Admin


You should know better than that. This man is often punnished for speaking the truth. He is so careful not to be photographed near women at functions in case of scandals. He won't speak if there is a recording device in the building etc.
He once dissagreed with a particular person high in the Church in public and was sent to a third world country as punishment. I can not/will not give you his name. If you don't believe me, do a search on the 20 torments. Untill recently it was on line at several Orthodox sites. Look it up
Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,447


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2009, 07:46:30 PM »

If it is so easy to access your source then there should be no problem sharing his name.
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2009, 07:49:05 PM »

OK! Let us all shoot the messanger.
Dreaming

Since it's so hard for you guys, I'll do mthe searching online.

Here is the first link

http://www.orthodox.net/confess/confession-20-torments.html

I'll keep searching
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 07:50:43 PM by Pap » Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,447


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2009, 07:49:42 PM »

The only thing I could find was in reference to preparation for confession.
http://www.orthodox.net/confess/confession-20-torments.html

Quote
Preparation for Confession

I, a sinful soul, confess to our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, all of my evil acts which I have done, said or thought from baptism even unto this present day.  
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 07:50:37 PM by Quinault » Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,983


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 08:01:29 PM »

First off Pap, welcome to the forum.  Smiley

I don't believe anyone is "shooting the messenger"; asking for clarification and/or sources is pretty normal really.  But now, there's three reasons for us not to take you seriously.

1. You came here not to discuss, but to chastise (and you did it with in a mock sincere manner)

2. You wigged out when asked for your sources.  This is typically a red flag, for future reference.  As Quinalt said, if it were so easily accessible, why not just save everyone the time and trouble?

3. The site you listed has absolutely nothing to do with what you're asserting.  Did you even bother to actually read what you cited? 

You're welcome to hang with us as long as you want, friend.  Just try and be a little more prepared next time you ask a "rhetorical" question.  Wink
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2009, 08:06:16 PM »

Link number 2
http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/theodora.aspx
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2009, 08:08:26 PM »

Here is a politicaly correct version where the Ethiopians have been replaced with evil spirits

http://www.antiochian.org/node/17211
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2009, 08:09:27 PM »

Please compare these to the Holy Scriptures (The Bible). Pray about it and then comment.
Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,447


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2009, 08:09:53 PM »

OK. So I have a question- Are you an Orthodox Christian? Are you seeking out the truth of Orthodox theology or are you here to debate? We need to know from what angle you are coming to this discussion so it can proceed accordingly. Either you are coming from a position of gaining knowledge or you are coming from the angle of debate. So which one is it?


And "pray about it" seems really insulting to a faith that has existed for thousands of years Wink
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 08:13:30 PM by Quinault » Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2009, 08:12:46 PM »

Pap,

NONE of the links you have provided have backed up the statement you have made, which is:

Quote
When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.

So, once again, I want to know:

1. Who said that it is official belief, but not taught.
2. When this person said this that you claim.
3. Where this person said this.

+FrChris
Admin
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2009, 08:28:02 PM »

The question was rhetorical.

You seem not to understand what a rhetorical question is.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2009, 08:55:34 PM »


When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.


Please provide within 48 hours a source for this assertion, naming the person you are stating teaches this as well as the date and location of this lecture.

+FrChris
Admin


You should know better than that.
Just in case you're wondering, when a moderator or admin posts in bolded green text like this, this is a formal moderatorial request and is not open to public discussion.

-PeterTheAleut
Moderator
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2009, 10:04:02 PM »

First of all, the heading here is Free-For-All (Discussion of hot topics that may be of a polemical nature.)

To me it reads that the people posting here have thick skin, but judging from your request it is the opposite.
The gentleman who I was referring to is a true gentleman and does not need to be named on such a forum. I said he was once punished severely for disagreeing with the hierarchy in the past and is now very careful with what he says, where he says it and who he is seen with. I will not cause him any more grief. He is the Godliest Greek Orthodox man I have ever met and he is doing great work in the mission field at the moment and does not need this.
Even if he was wrong, the previous links do show that Saint Theodora’s travels to paradise via the 20 Torments are teachings of the church. May I suggest that you study the topic and not persist on identifying a fine and Godly old man who is only a messenger of Orthodoxy.

The date was approximately 13 years ago and the location was in a theological college somewhere that will identify the man.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 10:06:32 PM by Pap » Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2009, 10:26:31 PM »

First of all, the heading here is Free-For-All (Discussion of hot topics that may be of a polemical nature.)

To me it reads that the people posting here have thick skin, but judging from your request it is the opposite.


Whatever... Roll Eyes Now, to the point:

Quote
The gentleman who I was referring to is a true gentleman and does not need to be named on such a forum. I said he was once punished severely for disagreeing with the hierarchy in the past and is now very careful with what he says, where he says it and who he is seen with.

The fact that he apparently 'disagrees with the hierarchy' indicates that he is not teaching something that the Church considers as being true. As pointed out by other posts, theologoumena is being presented, which means it is not dogma.


Quote
Even if he was wrong, the previous links do show that Saint Theodora’s travels to paradise via the 20 Torments are teachings of the church.

Please show me where any of those articles you quoted refer to an Ecumenical Council indicating that what is expressed is the actual dogma of the Orthodox Church.

Quote
The date was approximately 13 years ago and the location was in a theological college somewhere that will identify the man.

Then, you can discretely communicate this to me. I am a Greek Orthodox priest, and so should contact him anyway to see how I can help him in his mission field, and perhaps follow his worthy example.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2009, 10:49:20 PM »

Well. The second link that tells the story of Theodora is from the Orthodox Christian Information Centre. Here is what they have to say

As the Webmaster, in addition to the "mission statement" on the home page, I would like to make some remarks about the orientation of this site. It is my opinion that the articles you will find on my site are entirely faithful to Orthodox Tradition. It goes without saying, however, that I do not presume to speak for the Orthodox Church. This is, in fact, the role of the entire Body—"...

Why don't you repremand them? Why must you insist on bothering a Godly old man who works tirelesly for GOD?
Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2009, 11:08:26 PM »

What do you  not understand about the quote you provided?

Well. The second link that tells the story of Theodora is from the Orthodox Christian Information Centre. Here is what they have to say

As the Webmaster, in addition to the "mission statement" on the home page, I would like to make some remarks about the orientation of this site. It is my opinion that the articles you will find on my site are entirely faithful to Orthodox Tradition. It goes without saying, however, that I do not presume to speak for the Orthodox Church. This is, in fact, the role of the entire Body—"...

I have underlined the quote section that states the author does not speak for the Orthodox Church, which indicates that this discussion of the "20 Torments" is not dogma.

Quote
Why don't you repremand them? Why must you insist on bothering a Godly old man who works tirelesly for GOD?

First off, you have not yet been reprimanded...yet. But if you do not provide me the information requested, you will be.

Secondly, why on earth would I reprimand somebody on a website that I am not associated with?

Thirdly, are you describing yourself as a "Godly old man who works tirelessly for GOD"  or this person you have alleged is teaching this?

And, if he were "tirelessly working for GOD" then he should not mind me contacting him.

If he actually said this...
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
cholmes
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 146



« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2009, 11:09:55 PM »

First off Pap, welcome to the forum.  Smiley

I don't believe anyone is "shooting the messenger"; asking for clarification and/or sources is pretty normal really.  But now, there's three reasons for us not to take you seriously.

1. You came here not to discuss, but to chastise (and you did it with in a mock sincere manner)

2. You wigged out when asked for your sources.  This is typically a red flag, for future reference.  As Quinalt said, if it were so easily accessible, why not just save everyone the time and trouble?

3. The site you listed has absolutely nothing to do with what you're asserting.  Did you even bother to actually read what you cited? 

You're welcome to hang with us as long as you want, friend.  Just try and be a little more prepared next time you ask a "rhetorical" question.  Wink

#4 - Pap's username is suspiciously similar to the URL of the first site he provided, and his subsequent links pretty much all just relate the same story.
Logged

Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2009, 12:37:20 AM »


Quote
....why on earth would I reprimand somebody on a website that I am not associated with?
If I name him on a public forum, his career will be ended

Quote
.......are you describing yourself as a "Godly old man who works tirelessly for GOD"  or this person you have alleged is teaching this?


Me??? Hahaha! NO!  Him

Quote
And, if he were "tirelessly working for GOD" then he should not mind me contacting him.

Have we met sir? Do I have your credentials. Do you honestly expect me to post or PM you his details?
If so, can I interest you in some Nigerian money that my uncle has hidden in a secret bank acount?
Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,983


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2009, 12:42:34 AM »

This should be fun; glad I got my ticket for this. 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2009, 12:43:37 AM »

Quote
Pap's username is suspiciously similar to the URL of the first site he provided, and his subsequent links pretty much all just relate the same story.

Very observant. Yes, I can not tell a lie. It was me that posted the 20 Torments several years ago in an attempt to run a web page dedicated to the lies that the Orthodox Church teaches, whether it be Dogma or Theologumena.
BTW Theologumena means, "as told by GOD"
The hundred or so other sites must have coppied my page. Hahahahah!
Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2009, 12:51:00 AM »


Quote
....why on earth would I reprimand somebody on a website that I am not associated with?
If I name him on a public forum, his career will be ended

Then, as I mentioned before but you ignored...describe him in a private message to me.


Quote
And, if he were "tirelessly working for GOD" then he should not mind me contacting him.



Have we met sir? Do I have your credentials. Do you honestly expect me to post or PM you his details?


We have not yet met. However, it is well known that I am a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, serving in Jackson, MS. I invite members of this forum to vouch for me in this regard.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2009, 12:56:01 AM »

Mat 18:15-17  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.


He is my 'Brother" (spiritual). You have not met him. I will talk to him. What shall I say?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 12:57:23 AM by Pap » Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,983


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2009, 12:59:00 AM »



 However, it is well known that I am a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, serving in Jackson, MS. I invite members of this forum to vouch for me in this regard.
I hope to meet you someday, Father.  For now though, this is proof enough for me.  Smiley

http://www.goarch.org/parishes/parish_results
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2009, 01:00:55 AM »

Mat 18:15-17  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

He is my 'Brother" (spiritual). You have not met him. I will talk to him. What shall I say?


But...if this brother is making statements that are not supported by the Church, then it is folks such as I that should 'tell him his fault'.

But you would only identify this person to me if you actually believed in doing what Scripture instructs us to do. Clearly you do not believe in following Scripture!
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2009, 01:01:51 AM »

One thing I've noticed is that this story you have presented us is based off of Toll Houses. Toll Houses are not official dogma in the Orthodox Church, therefore it would be impossible for this to be official dogma, since it is reliant on the existence Toll Houses.

Furthermore, this holy man you describe, who also happens to be a member of the church "that teaches lies" cannot represent the whole Church. If the Church is at some sort of animosity towards him then we are left to wonder why, especially since you won't tell us who he is. Could you provide another source saying this is official Orthodox dogma other than some mysterious reclusive Greek Orthodox guy who is apparently in danger for some unknown reason?
Logged

signature
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2009, 01:03:08 AM »

If toll houses are not dogma, what are they?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2009, 01:10:11 AM »

Have we met sir? Do I have your credentials. Do you honestly expect me to post or PM you his details?


We have not yet met. However, it is well known that I am a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, serving in Jackson, MS. I invite members of this forum to vouch for me in this regard.
Result of a goarch website search for Fr. Christopher Harner, the admin of this discussion forum:  http://www.goarch.org/parishes/GOA-1404

I think this information should be enough to show that Fr. Chris is indeed whom he says he is.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 01:14:28 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2009, 01:11:03 AM »

If toll houses are not dogma, what are they?


Theologoumenon.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2009, 01:11:38 AM »

Quote
If toll houses are not dogma, what are they?

For lack of a better word you could say they are theory. Not everyone in the Orthodox Church believes in Toll Houses, and those who do don't have to believe in this story. I don't even think Toll Houses have been discussed in any Church councils (someone here would know more about that than I do).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 01:16:40 AM by antiderivative » Logged

signature
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2009, 01:12:02 AM »

If toll houses are not dogma, what are they?


Are you not paying attention to this thread? This was discussed in the very first reply to your original post:

Quote
I don't believe it is an official teaching of the Church (correct me if I'm wrong), but I've never heard of it being denounced either.  It seems rather similar to the Toll House idea.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2009, 01:22:59 AM »

So why is there so much confusion over this and other topics?
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2009, 01:26:59 AM »

Is praying for the salvation of our dead a Theologoumenon or is it Dogma?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2009, 01:32:18 AM »

Is praying for the salvation of our dead a Theologoumenon or is it Dogma?
How is the fact that we pray for the salvation of the dead proof of the "dogma" of the toll houses or the Twenty Torments?  We pray for the dead because we believe our prayers somehow benefit them.  What SPECIFIC benefit our prayers offer the dead has not been defined authoritatively, to my knowledge.
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2009, 01:33:44 AM »

We pray for the dead because of such teachings as the toll houses/20 torments.
Praying for the dead is not found in the Bible.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 01:33:58 AM by Pap » Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,786



« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2009, 01:34:00 AM »

For lack of a better word you could say they are theory.

I don't know about a theory, but maybe somewhere between a theory and a hypothesis.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2009, 01:47:35 AM »

We pray for the dead because of such teachings as the toll houses/20 torments.
That's not why I was taught to pray for the dead.

Praying for the dead is not found in the Bible.
I suppose you haven't read 2 Maccabees 12:43-45, then.
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2009, 01:59:07 AM »

Isn't  2 Maccabees Deuetocanonical?
Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2009, 02:16:25 AM »

Isn't  2 Maccabees Deuetocanonical?

Nope. It's part of the LXX, so it is part of the canonical Scriptures for the Orthodox Chruch.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2009, 02:21:09 AM »

I asked this same question when I was studying and was told it is Deuetocanonical, so we only use it for historical reference , not theological. But if you are going to insist on who said that I don't remember. But If the Church insists that it is now Dogma, I believe it is only because it suits what they believe.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,786



« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2009, 02:24:00 AM »

But If the Church insists that it is now Dogma, I believe it is only because it suits what they believe.

Man, you are really itching to piss off someone on here, aren't you?

So if you are not Orthodox, are you affiliated with any other group?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 02:24:44 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2009, 02:25:27 AM »

AMAAA! You said a bad word
Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2009, 02:27:06 AM »

But If the Church insists that it is now Dogma, I believe it is only because it suits what they believe.

First off, this quote shows how you have reversed what has actually occurred: praying for the dead is efficacious because it has been shown to be so in Scriptures, not because the Church needs to come to some justification for Tradition.

Secondly, this also shows that you have entered this forum not to learn about the Orthodox Faith, but to attack the Body of Christ.
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2009, 02:33:21 AM »

Convince me that the Church is not teaching heresies and I will return. I am in your eyes a lost sheep.
My life would be much simpler if I left the Evangelical church and returned to the Orthodox Church. All my friends and relatives will no longer treat me like a leper and I might be welcome to dine with them and not spat on.  Cry
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2009, 02:34:36 AM »

AMAAA! You said a bad word
Last time I heard someone actually talk like that was when I was a little kid.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2009, 02:35:59 AM »

Convince me that the Church is not teaching heresies and I will return. I am in your eyes a lost sheep.
My life would be much simpler if I left the Evangelical church and returned to the Orthodox Church. All my friends and relatives will no longer treat me like a leper and I might be welcome to dine with them and not spat on.  Cry

Now you're appealing to pity.  Do you really have anything logical to say anymore?
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2009, 02:44:00 AM »

Our local Priest (Who insidently was eventually kicked out for paedophylia) spent some time in every sermon warning us about the evil evangelicals. He said things like we burn icons, pray to Satan and all sorts of lies.
It wasn't till I heard an evangelical message that I realised it was all Propaganda.
As I said earlier: Convince me I'm wrong.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,786



« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2009, 03:23:54 AM »

Our local Priest (Who insidently was eventually kicked out for paedophylia) spent some time in every sermon warning us about the evil evangelicals. He said things like we burn icons, pray to Satan and all sorts of lies.
It wasn't till I heard an evangelical message that I realised it was all Propaganda.
As I said earlier: Convince me I'm wrong.

It sounds like your former priest didn't know a lot about Evangelicals, if he is even a real person.  But even you should be aware how iconoclasm was a hallmark of the "Re-formation."  Burning of iconography was common, but this conflict specifically was removed from Holy Orthodoxy.  I don't know of any Christians intentionally praying to Satan, unless you mean "Christian" used broadly enough to include some forms of Satanism which rely so heavily on inverted Christian imagery that it would be correct to refer to them as being paradigmatically 'stuck' in Christianity, even in their feeble opposition to it.  Such opposition actually fuels and reinforces Christian understanding as it is constricted by its linguistic and symbolic parameters, but I acquiesce.

The other side is just as guilty of propaganda, with catch-phrases like "Mary Worship" and "idolatry."  I think a better term than propaganda on either side would be misunderstanding.  As far as proving you wrong on these matters, simply grab a history book and start reading.  I don't need to prove anything, the Church has history on her side.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 03:25:15 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2009, 03:50:45 AM »

Praying for the dead is not found in the Bible.
Certainly it is.

See this message

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg304145.html#msg304145
Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2009, 04:38:41 AM »

I asked this same question when I was studying and was told it is Deuetocanonical, so we only use it for historical reference , not theological.

This can be said about 4 Maccabees or 3 Esdras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras), which are included in Orthodox Bibles as non-canonical appendices, but not about 2 Maccabees which is a canonical book of the Old Testament. "Deuetocanonical" and "protocanonical" are Roman Catholic terms - coined under the influence of the Protestant Reformation - and should have no application in Orthodoxy.
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2009, 04:55:44 AM »

http://www.bible.ca/catholic-apocrypha.htm
Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2009, 05:23:46 AM »


What do you want to prove / show / draw our attention to by posting this link?
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2009, 05:35:27 AM »

I draw your attention to the whole page.
It discusses the fact that the Maccabean books are NOT docrine.
Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2009, 06:13:06 AM »

I draw your attention to the whole page.

It's good but Jesus-Is-Savior.com is even better. Wink
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 06:15:01 AM by Michał » Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2009, 09:29:26 AM »

I'd love to see the things that FrChris requested of you Pap. As stated previously, the link you provided is linked to the teaching of tollhouses. If you are looking for a smoking gun to shut the coffin on Orthodoxy, with tollhouses, you have failed miserably. It is NOT a doctrine/dogma of the Church PERIOD. The priests that I have come in contact with over the years, as well as my spiritual father, have all said to run from this teaching like the plague. They could not/cannot say this type of thing in regards to Saints, Prayers for the Dead, The Eucharist, etc. If you truly wish to be convinced of Orthodoxy, try being a little more kind in your posts. There are many non-Orthodox on this forum that have great relations with us. Why? Because they truly want to learn, and they don't demean us. I am not sure you are interested in learning, though.
Logged
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,753



« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2009, 09:53:17 AM »

I draw your attention to the whole page.
It discusses the fact that the Maccabean books are NOT doctrine.

The Old Testament of the Orthodox Church is the Septuagint, not the Masoric text that the Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches utilize. The website that you quote from is one of the Roman Catholic Church and not a website from the Orthodox Church. So yes, in the Orthodox church, praying for the dead is a biblical teaching that is officially found within the Official Text of the Old Testament utilized by the Orthodox Church called the Septuagint.

Thomas
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2009, 09:59:32 AM »

The Old Testament of the Orthodox Church is the Septuagint, not the Masoric text that the Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches utilize. The website that you quote from is one of the Roman Catholic Church and not a website from the Orthodox Church. So yes, in the Orthodox church, praying for the dead is a biblical teaching that is officially found within the Official Text of the Old Testament utilized by the Orthodox Church called the Septuagint.

Thomas
Exactly. I would also love to know what the "Official" Canon of Scripture is supposed to be anyway? Certainly not the one formulated in the 15/1600s. Convince me I'm wrong. Wink
Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2009, 10:09:21 AM »

The website that you quote from is one of the Roman Catholic Church and not a website from the Orthodox Church.

You mean this one: http://www.bible.ca/catholic-apocrypha.htm? I had an impression that it was a fundamentalist Protestant website.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 10:09:56 AM by Michał » Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2009, 10:16:47 AM »

The website that you quote from is one of the Roman Catholic Church and not a website from the Orthodox Church.

You mean this one: http://www.bible.ca/catholic-apocrypha.htm? I had an impression that it was a fundamentalist Protestant website.
Yeah, the site is worthless. The same tired Sola Scriptura argument regurgitated over and over. I really don't see who it appeals to.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2009, 10:51:49 AM »

Toll Houses have been discussed in any Church councils (someone here would know more about that than I do).

The first notes about it come from late 9th century and the last Ecumenical Council took place in 787.
http://www.oca.org/FSlives.asp see: Venerable Theodora of Constantinople  
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
monkvasyl
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: UOC 0f USA
Posts: 653



« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2009, 02:08:56 PM »

If this is what I have to look forward to, I'd rather deal with Purgatory...lol
Logged

The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2009, 02:23:17 PM »

The first notes about it come from late 9th century. . .

It's not so obvious. St Paul already in the 1st century wrote about "the Ruler of the Powers of the Air, who is still at work among the disobedient" (Eph 2:2).
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2009, 02:35:23 PM »

I draw your attention to the whole page.
It discusses the fact that the Maccabean books are NOT docrine.

Then why do the Jews celebrate Hanukkah?

I mention that, because you use their canon, why not their calendar?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2009, 02:40:54 PM »


When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.


Please provide within 48 hours a source for this assertion, naming the person you are stating teaches this as well as the date and location of this lecture.

+FrChris
Admin


You should know better than that.
Just in case you're wondering, when a moderator or admin posts in bolded green text like this, this is a formal moderatorial request and is not open to public discussion.

-PeterTheAleut
Moderator


And it's not a rhetorical question.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,753



« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2009, 04:33:04 PM »

The Old Testament of the Orthodox Church is the Septuagint, not the Masoric text that the Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches utilize. The website that you quote from is one of the Roman Catholic Church and not a website from the Orthodox Church. So yes, in the Orthodox church, praying for the dead is a biblical teaching that is officially found within the Official Text of the Old Testament utilized by the Orthodox Church called the Septuagint.

Thomas
Exactly. I would also love to know what the "Official" Canon of Scripture is supposed to be anyway? Certainly not the one formulated in the 15/1600s. Convince me I'm wrong. Wink

In response to your question, This is an excerpt from a longer article located at www.septuagint.net

Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

Septuagint - Influence on Christianity
The Septuagint was also a source of the Old Testament for early Christians during the first few centuries AD. Many early Christians spoke and read Greek, thus they relied on the Septuagint translation for most of their understanding of the Old Testament. The New Testament writers also relied heavily on the Septuagint, as a majority of Old Testament quotes cited in the New Testament are quoted directly from the Septuagint (others are quoted from the Hebrew texts). Greek church fathers are also known to have quoted from the Septuagint. Even today, the Eastern Orthodox Church relies on the Septuagint for its Old Testament teachings.

+++
A summary of several articles cited below:

It is notable that the Eastern Orthodox Church still prefers to use the LXX (Septuagint)as the basis for translating the Old Testament into other languages. The Eastern Orthodox also use LXX untranslated where Greek is the liturgical language, e.g. in the Orthodox Church of Constantinople, the Church of Greece and the Cypriot Orthodox Church. There is actually a scholarly consensus that the LXX represents a separate Hebrew-text tradition from that which was later standardized as the Masoretic text and is therfore an earlier understanding of the Jewish scriptures as understood by the Jews at the time of Christ.
(reference cite - a)Karen Jobes and Moises Silva, Invitation to the Septuagint ISBN 1-84227-061-3, (Paternoster Press, 2001). - The current standard for Introductory works on the Septuagint.
                       b) William Priestly, "The Dead Sea Scrolls." — A detailed explanation with scholarly apparatus.


I agree with you, as Orthodox christians we do not rely upon a canon of scripture that was settled between 1500 and 1600 (your quote) but rather on the practices and citations of the Early Church Fathers.  There are many who believe that the Jewish attempt at canonizing the Masoric text of the Old Testament is actually an attempt by jewish scholars and rabbis of the time  to minimize the us of quotations of LXX scriptures by the apostles and Our Lord as an attempt to minimize the reliance on scripture to prove the messiahship of Jesus Christ by the Christians.

Thomas
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2009, 05:16:46 PM »


Quote
....why on earth would I reprimand somebody on a website that I am not associated with?
If I name him on a public forum, his career will be ended

Then, as I mentioned before but you ignored...describe him in a private message to me.


Quote
And, if he were "tirelessly working for GOD" then he should not mind me contacting him.



Have we met sir? Do I have your credentials. Do you honestly expect me to post or PM you his details?


We have not yet met. However, it is well known that I am a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, serving in Jackson, MS. I invite members of this forum to vouch for me in this regard.

Fr. Chris is indeed a Greek Orthodox Priest. He has a wonderful parish (at least from the pictures) and he is an Administrator of this site.

-nick
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,914


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2009, 05:27:44 PM »


Quote
....why on earth would I reprimand somebody on a website that I am not associated with?
If I name him on a public forum, his career will be ended

Then, as I mentioned before but you ignored...describe him in a private message to me.


Quote
And, if he were "tirelessly working for GOD" then he should not mind me contacting him.

Have we met sir? Do I have your credentials. Do you honestly expect me to post or PM you his details?

We have not yet met. However, it is well known that I am a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, serving in Jackson, MS. I invite members of this forum to vouch for me in this regard.

As if he needed anyone else to vouch for him; Fr. Chris is indeed a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America serving in Jackson MS.  I attended his ordination to the priesthood (fried chicken for coffee hour?  yes!), was a schoolmate and next-door neighbor at Theological School, etc.  If you need more details: tough.

As for confidence in Fr. Chris' ability to hold things in, well, confidence... He's been trusted by a number of people with confidential personal information and situations for as long as I've known him (August 2003); he had a reputation as a person of great care on campus at Theological School, and has not broken the confidences of people yet since I've met him.  As far as I'm concerned, I would (and will) trust him with my life.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,342


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2009, 10:20:43 PM »

Our local Priest (Who insidently was eventually kicked out for paedophylia) spent some time in every sermon warning us about the evil evangelicals. He said things like we burn icons, pray to Satan and all sorts of lies.

That doesn't sound like any Orthodox priest I have ever known or heard.  In my personal experience, it is the Evangelicals who obsess with telling lies about the Catholics and Orthodox.  Kind of like your list of 20 torments, or whatever that was.
Logged

Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2009, 12:21:25 AM »

Our local Priest (Who insidently was eventually kicked out for paedophylia) spent some time in every sermon warning us about the evil evangelicals. He said things like we burn icons, pray to Satan and all sorts of lies.

That doesn't sound like any Orthodox priest I have ever known or heard.  In my personal experience, it is the Evangelicals who obsess with telling lies about the Catholics and Orthodox.  Kind of like your list of 20 torments, or whatever that was.

He used to say things like; the Evangelicals have "Holy Icons" under their carpet so they can be troden under foot.
Granted this was about 30 years ago but the old goat did a number on our congregation. His sons went to school with a very good friend. They never fasted and they once admitted that they were not even Orthodox. Their father's job is a Priest but doesn't practice it. Just in case I get moderated again, his Church was St Nicholas in Marrickvile Sydney. The archdiocese said he was sent back to Greece for his pedophilia but he shaved his goatee and got a job at Sydney airport as a customs officer. I don't know how to prove this but I have to answer to my Lord is I'm telling a lie.



So can someone tell me? How theologumena get into the Church and why do some priests believe and teach these false beliefs? Are'nt they answerable to the Archbishop? Shouldn't they all be teaching from the same books?
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,786



« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2009, 12:36:52 AM »

I am so very sorry you were hurt.  May the Lord Jesus Christ heal your wounds, and may God have mercy upon this man and lead him to repentance!  I hope that this man's actions will not keep you away from the Church forever, and I pray that the unfortunate wrongdoings of weak servants would not keep you from the truth of the Orthodox faith!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 12:37:31 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2009, 03:06:53 AM »

Yeh! He's probably rotting in Hell. Screaming like a pig.
I hope the Church doesn’t still protect these pedophiles like the Catholic Church does.
I’ve gone off the topic. Sorry but these uneducated priests did a lot of damage in the past and still do. My mother in law was told at some senior citizens bible study that the original sin was anal sex.
Doesn’t matter what you tell her, she won’t change her beliefs because Fr Michael said so. (He’s retired last year, so there is no point chasing him up Fr Chris).
My Dad spent the last 30 years of his life in constant pain. He resorted to seeing a psychic who told him someone cast a spell on him. He told his priest but his priest did not reprimand him. He died not long after. Why didn’t the $#&#ing priest help him? (I can name the priest if you want). How many millions of Orthodox are going to Hell before the Orthodox Church stops worrying about offending their flocks or losing to the Evil Evangelical Protestants and start teaching the truth. Did Paul or John worry about offending the Christians? NO!!! John called the ones that hated their brother liars. He didn’t pull any punches.
The old goat (TRAGO)  should have told dad that if he continued to visit the psychic he would be condemning himself to Hell.
I better go before I break the keyboard.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,786



« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2009, 03:25:08 AM »

Yeh! He's probably rotting in Hell. Screaming like a pig.
I hope the Church doesn’t still protect these pedophiles like the Catholic Church does.
I’ve gone off the topic. Sorry but these uneducated priests did a lot of damage in the past and still do. My mother in law was told at some senior citizens bible study that the original sin was anal sex.
Doesn’t matter what you tell her, she won’t change her beliefs because Fr Michael said so. (He’s retired last year, so there is no point chasing him up Fr Chris).
My Dad spent the last 30 years of his life in constant pain. He resorted to seeing a psychic who told him someone cast a spell on him. He told his priest but his priest did not reprimand him. He died not long after. Why didn’t the $#&#ing priest help him? (I can name the priest if you want). How many millions of Orthodox are going to Hell before the Orthodox Church stops worrying about offending their flocks or losing to the Evil Evangelical Protestants and start teaching the truth. Did Paul or John worry about offending the Christians? NO!!! John called the ones that hated their brother liars. He didn’t pull any punches.
The old goat (TRAGO)  should have told dad that if he continued to visit the psychic he would be condemning himself to Hell.
I better go before I break the keyboard.

Kyrie Eleison.
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2009, 07:53:22 AM »

Dear all, first, please forgive me that I missed this thread as a Mod yesterday; Global Mods and Admin, thank you so much for taking care of things here. Dear Pap, yes, lines in green are official moderatorial statements and they are not up for discussion, according to the rules of this Web forum. --Heorhij, moderator (Free-For-All, religious topics)

Now as a participant: Yes, from what I heard, torments (Old Church Slavonic "mytarstva") of the soul after death and before the general resurrection of the dead is what we call a theologumenon, meaning, a pious opinion of some theologians - but not a dogma of the Orthodox Church.

I think if one really wants to know what is dogma and what is theologumenon, one must: (a) pay a very close attention to the words of the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, because essentially all Church dogmatics is there, and (b) get in touch, personally, with a highly educated Orthodox priest or bishop, and respectfully, prayerfully ask him to clarify things.

Starting a heated debate on a Web forum, especially using expressions like "the lies the Orthodox Church teaches," etc., will definitely not clarify anything...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 07:53:49 AM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2009, 08:22:44 AM »

I remember now. The 20 Torments that I posted on my old web (at least 12 years ago) site was coppied from a book I once purchased from the church book shop.
How do these Theologumena even get a start?
I think because the Church has so so many Church Fathers and Saints, nobody knows who is reputable and who isn't. My parents were worshiping Saint Dinitri tou Leka till the Church anounced that he was never a Saint. Yet they got his books and Icons from the Church book stand on a Sunday on the Church grounds.
Go figure?
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2009, 08:52:48 AM »

I remember now. The 20 Torments that I posted on my old web (at least 12 years ago) site was coppied from a book I once purchased from the church book shop.
How do these Theologumena even get a start?
I think because the Church has so so many Church Fathers and Saints, nobody knows who is reputable and who isn't. My parents were worshiping Saint Dinitri tou Leka till the Church anounced that he was never a Saint. Yet they got his books and Icons from the Church book stand on a Sunday on the Church grounds.
Go figure?

I understand. I sometimes hear some very good people, obviously deeply believing Orthodox, say something like, "there is no evolution because that's what Holy Father Seraphim Rose says." Or, I remember being blasted and called a heretic because I mentioned, on another forum, that Genesis 3:21 ("animal skins") does not necessarily mean that man before the Fall had no flesh - people immediately quoted a number of Fathers who were, apparently, Platonists and who indeed believed that there was no flesh before the Fall (just an etherial, light, air-like body with no "meat" whatsoever on it). I quoted St. John Chrysostomos who obviously, clearly does NOT see any "flesh allegory" in these "animal skins," but my opponent said that I was "lying straight in the eye," even though I gave literal quotes and a link to an Orthodox source that had St. John's text.

Again, the only thing I can say in these situations is that we, perhaps, will all benefit if we (a) agree that the essence of the Church DOGMATICS (as opposed to "collection of OPINIONS") is all in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, and (2) keep in touch with our spiritual Fathers, asking THEM to explain certain difficult moments in our learning the Church teachings, asking not casually but seriously, thoughtfully and prayerfuly...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 08:53:45 AM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,874


« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2009, 09:43:32 AM »

To the poster Pap,   May I suggest that you read this essay by a 20th c Orthodox saint who understands much of what is wrong in the human element within the church but sees the purity within the Orthodox Christian faith. http://incommunion.org/?p=26
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,131


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2009, 12:37:07 PM »

Wow. Crazy thread.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2009, 05:53:08 PM »

Quote
I understand. I sometimes hear some very good people, obviously deeply believing Orthodox, say something like, "there is no evolution because that's what Holy Father Seraphim Rose says." Or, I remember being blasted and called a heretic because I mentioned, on another forum, that Genesis 3:21 ("animal skins") does not necessarily mean that man before the Fall had no flesh - people immediately quoted a number of Fathers who were, apparently, Platonists and who indeed believed that there was no flesh before the Fall (just an etherial, light, air-like body with no "meat" whatsoever on it). I quoted St. John Chrysostomos who obviously, clearly does NOT see any "flesh allegory" in these "animal skins," but my opponent said that I was "lying straight in the eye," even though I gave literal quotes and a link to an Orthodox source that had St. John's text.

Again, the only thing I can say in these situations is that we, perhaps, will all benefit if we (a) agree that the essence of the Church DOGMATICS (as opposed to "collection of OPINIONS") is all in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, and (2) keep in touch with our spiritual Fathers, asking THEM to explain certain difficult moments in our learning the Church teachings, asking not casually but seriously, thoughtfully and prayerfuly...

You unwittingly proved my point.
You obviously believe in a form of Evolution. The Bible has no room for Evolution because if you ad up all the “begats” you’d get a figure of about 6000 years, allowing for a few generations that haven’t been mentioned. But wars and kings have been mentioned that archaeologists and historians can date. So why should I believe you if you teach a Doctrine different to GODS word?
You said some Church Fathers were Platonists. Then you tell me to consult my Spiritual Father. Who says that all Spiritual Fathers know what they are talking about? Is my Spiritual Father a Platonist?
Been an Orthodox is like been in the school debating team or a philosophy class. The Nicene-Constantinople Creed might have the truth of what Orthodoxy believes but the Orthodox clergy (and Church Fathers) have ignored it and added and taught whatever dream they’ve dreamt.
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2009, 06:18:48 PM »

You obviously believe in a form of Evolution. The Bible has no room for Evolution because if you ad up all the “begats” you’d get a figure of about 6000 years, allowing for a few generations that haven’t been mentioned. But wars and kings have been mentioned that archaeologists and historians can date. So why should I believe you if you teach a Doctrine different to GODS word?

Wow. First of all, I am not teaching you and there are no particular reasons you should believe ME. I am just a layman and a rank-and-file participant in OC.net discussions, not here to make anyone believe me. Second, the Orthodox Church has never been against figurative, allegoric interpretations of Genesis rather than literal, historical interpretations of it. Third, God's Word is not the Bible but the God-Man Jesus Christ, the Logos Incarnate, Who is always present in His Church. It is He Who teaches us, using a large variety of things: the Divine Liturgy, the Holy Mysteries, the Scriptures, the doctrinal documents of the Ecumenical Councils, the iconography, the architecture, and many other things...   

You said some Church Fathers were Platonists. Then you tell me to consult my Spiritual Father. Who says that all Spiritual Fathers know what they are talking about? Is my Spiritual Father a Platonist?

Not likely, because after the Fifth Ecumenical Council (553), Platonism and Neo-Platonism suffered a decisive blow and never really made a comeback into the Church doctrine (see the famous Anathemas against Origen that dealt with the "matter - bad, spirit - good" mentality, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html). If your spiritual Father is a seminary graduate, he most certainly knows that Platonism is not compatible with being an Orthodox presbyter. But in the 2-nd, 3-d, even 4-th century Platonism and Neo-Platonism (Plotinus) did influence the mentality and the language of many Church Fathers quite a lot.

Been an Orthodox is like been in the school debating team or a philosophy class. The Nicene-Constantinople Creed might have the truth of what Orthodoxy believes but the Orthodox clergy (and Church Fathers) have ignored it and added and taught whatever dream they’ve dreamt.

That's not true. First of all, the Nicene Creed IS ITSELF a product of many decades of deliberations of the many Church Fathers (BTW, same thing the Bible canon). From what you are saying, it seems like there was this Creed, fallen from the sky, and then these bad Fathers came and changed everything. Here, you are arguing like an extreme Sola Scriptura evangelical: we have this Bible (fallen from the sky), and then those bad Orthodox and Catholics added a lot of things to it. This is naive and inaccurate. Second, what was, indeed, added to the Church dogmatics, was added not arbitrarily (like someone dreaded a dream), but through meetings of many, many Ecumenical and local Councils. While some of these councils (like the Stoglav I mentioned) did not contribute much of substance and are today viewed as superfluous, other councils produced true gems of our faith like the Christological dogmat about the two natures of the Logos Incarnate (Chalcedon, 451). And lastly, if you have this preconceived notion that the Orthodox Church teaches falsehoods, why are you discussing on this forum? I am afraid we aren't going to convince you in anything if you have already made up your mind, and you will certainly not convince us (the Orthodox). Maybe we should start over, without you assuming that we are bad, lying, or childishly naive people?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 06:19:46 PM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2009, 07:01:24 PM »


"Extreme Sola Scriptura evangelical"? Are you aware of the Heptadic Structure of the BIBLE?
I Beg you. Please watch this little video by Chuck Missler. No I didn't google this, I've met Chuch several times and he's no fool.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d
This Catholic Church tried to hide this stuff that Ivan Panin discoverd because it was proof for Sola Scripture.
Do the writings of the Church Fathers or Nicene-Constantinople Creed follow this structure?
In Christ
Pap
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2009, 07:47:44 PM »


"Extreme Sola Scriptura evangelical"? Are you aware of the Heptadic Structure of the BIBLE?
I Beg you. Please watch this little video by Chuck Missler. No I didn't google this, I've met Chuch several times and he's no fool.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d
This Catholic Church tried to hide this stuff that Ivan Panin discoverd because it was proof for Sola Scripture.
Do the writings of the Church Fathers or Nicene-Constantinople Creed follow this structure?
In Christ
Pap

Sorry, I don't know what you are talking about and I am out of this discussion. Be well.
Logged

Love never fails.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2009, 07:57:05 PM »

I thought Chuck Missler's explanation would have made it clear, but I'll try to summaries it for you.

Every single chapter and verse of the 66 books we call the Bible follow a mathematical formula. A formula that the Holy Spirit has put in it to prove its authentication. Chuck shows how it works. Only these 66 books have this formula (Heptadic structure). Please. It would only take 23.23 minutes to watch. The best 23.23minutes you will spend in a long time. The first couple of minutes he talks about the Gnostics then he get's "into it".
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2009, 07:59:20 PM »

I thought Chuck Missler's explanation would have made it clear, but I'll try to summaries it for you.

Every single chapter and verse of the 66 books we call the Bible follow a mathematical formula. A formula that the Holy Spirit has put in it to prove its authentication. Chuck shows how it works. Only these 66 books have this formula (Heptadic structure). Please. It would only take 23.23 minutes to watch. The best 23.23minutes you will spend in a long time. The first couple of minutes he talks about the Gnostics then he get's "into it".


Be well. Stay away from people who see "mathematical formulas" in the Bible.
Logged

Love never fails.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2009, 08:01:18 PM »

Are you going to ignore proof that the Bible is the infallible Word of GOD?
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2009, 08:07:19 PM »

I suppose it’s OK to use a rotting corpse to prove a belief, just as it was used with St Euphemia. But GOD forbid we use a little mathematics to prove the BIBLE.

Miracle during the Council of Chalcedon
The Council of Chalcedon was the fourth Ecumenical Council of the Christian Church which took place in the city of Chalcedon in the year 451. It repudiated the Eutychian doctrine of monophysitism, and set forth the Chalcedonian Creed, which describes the "full humanity and full divinity" of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
The council sat in the cathedral consecrated in her name. Present at the council were 630 representatives from all the local Christian Churches. Both the Monophysite and Orthodox parties were well-represented at the council, so the meetings were quite contentious, and no decisive consensus could be reached. Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople suggested that the council submit the decision to the Holy Spirit, acting through Saint Euphemia.
Both parties wrote a confession of their faith and placed them in the tomb of the saint Euphemia which was sealed in the presence of the emperor Marcian (450-457), who placed the imperial seal on it and set a guard to watch over it for three days. During these days both sides fasted and prayed. After three days the tomb was opened and the scroll with the Orthodox confession was seen in the right hand of St Euphemia while the scroll of the Monophysites lay at her feet.


Does the Nicene-Constantinople Creed  permit us to use a corps like that or was that another Theologumeno that Created another Saint?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 08:11:39 PM by Pap » Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2009, 08:45:31 PM »

Are you going to ignore proof that the Bible is the infallible Word of GOD?

Yes, I am going to ignore claims of people who have no idea what the Bible actually is that it is "the infallible Word of GOD." And especially if W is capitalized and GOD is in all caps - that's plain hysterical and not worth any further discussion. Be well and stay away from wacos.
Logged

Love never fails.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #91 on: May 19, 2009, 09:06:32 PM »

My Bible (and yours) has GOD'S name capitalized. Jesus’ name always has the first letter in caps. ie When the Bible says LORD, it's talking about GOD. When it says Lord, it's talking about Jesus. I also show reverence to HIS Bible by using a capital B or W when I call it HIS Word. You show it reverence by Kissing it, I show by giving it a capital.
PS You may also have noticed I use a capital i when I talk about myself. That is called English grammar.
I suppose when you die GOD might ask you what you have read. You’ll name all the writings of the Fathers. How sad HE will be when you tell HIM you haven’t read HIS Book or if you’ve place the writings of mere men over HIS writings.
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #92 on: May 19, 2009, 09:26:49 PM »

My Bible (and yours) has GOD'S name capitalized.

Well, first off, it's not God but the noun LORD that is capitalized - and even that, in the OT, not in NT. The reason why the word "Lord" is capitalized in OT is an old Jewish custom stemming from the tradition to replace the proper name Jehovah with the general noun "Lord," for purely supersticious reasons. And then - why should it matter? I repeat, just because I seem merely to know and appreciate what my Church teaches me, - the Word of God is not the text of any book, but the Person of Jesus Christ, the unique "hypostasis" Who joined God and man in Himself. I hope and pray you meet Him. Unless you do, all our exchanges are "chasing after the wind." I have. In the Church. Have you? Seriously?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 09:27:51 PM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2009, 09:35:32 PM »

I, my dear friend do not leave my brain at the door when I worship at my Church. You however seem to accept everything your Church teaches with blind faith. We are comanded to be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11 KJV)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

What are the Scriptures? The writings of the Fathers?
They are now gathered into one volume called the Bible.

Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2009, 10:02:25 PM »

I, my dear friend do not leave my brain at the door when I worship at my Church. You however seem to accept everything your Church teaches with blind faith. We are comanded to be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11 KJV)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

What are the Scriptures? The writings of the Fathers?
They are now gathered into one volume called the Bible.



I do not leave my brain at the door either, but I know, with the help of this brain, that the Bible Canon was compiled at the Laodicean Council of the Church in the late 300's. Before that, there was no way in the world to claim that the Gospel of John WAS the Bible, and the Gospels of Thomas, Judas or of some "little green spirits" were not. So, the Church actually gave us the Bible, by Her thorough, slow, careful deliberations. And similarly the Church gives us the dogmatics, and the applications of it to our everyday life - not any book or Internet URL. Smiley
Logged

Love never fails.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2009, 10:32:19 PM »

When I was Orthodox I was under the impression that the Bible was a GOD inspired book. With all their faults our uneducated priests never denied that it was the "word of GOD". Now you're trying to tell me it isn't?
I suppose the Bible contradicts the beliefes of the Church in many ways, so the best defence is attack.
Logged
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,342


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2009, 10:42:10 PM »

With all their faults our uneducated priests never denied that it was the "word of GOD". Now you're trying to tell me it isn't?

The Word of God is Christ.  Read the first chapter of the Gospel according to St. John. 

Heorhij isn't denying that the Bible is inspired by God.  He is giving you the history of its compilation.  It didn't drop down from heaven as it is today, the day after Christ's resurrection.  It's compilation has a long history and it involves the work of councils attended by bishops of the Church.

Prior to the late fourth/early fifth centuries there was no universally accepted rule as to what the Christian Bible consisted of.  Different communities had different lists of books they considered to be scripture.  This is well documented.  It was the Church which, a few centuries after Christ's death and resurrection, finally decided which books were in and which were out.
Logged

Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2009, 11:09:12 PM »

Why won't you watch this short video? I guarentee you will be impressed.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d

(Rev 22:19 KJV)  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2009, 11:24:17 PM »

(Mat 21:42 KJV)  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

(Mat 22:29 KJV)  Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

(Mat 26:54 KJV)  But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

(Mat 26:56 KJV)  But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

(Mark 12:24 KJV)  And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

(Mark 14:49 KJV)  I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.

(Luke 24:27 KJV)  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

(Luke 24:32 KJV)  And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

(Luke 24:45 KJV)  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

(John 5:39 KJV)  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

(Acts 17:2 KJV)  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

(Acts 17:11 KJV)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

(Acts 18:24 KJV)  And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

(Acts 18:28 KJV)  For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, showing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

(Rom 1:2 KJV)  (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

(Rom 15:4 KJV)  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

(Rom 16:26 KJV)  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

(1 Cor 15:3 KJV)  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

(1 Cor 15:4 KJV)  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

(2 Tim 3:15 KJV)  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

(2 Pet 3:16 KJV)  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

(Mark 12:10 KJV)  And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

(Mark 15:28 KJV)  And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

(Luke 4:21 KJV)  And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

(John 2:22 KJV)  When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

(John 7:38 KJV)  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

(John 7:42 KJV)  Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

(John 10:35 KJV)  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

(John 13:18 KJV)  I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

(John 17:12 KJV)  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

(John 19:24 KJV)  They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

(John 19:28 KJV)  After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

(John 19:36 KJV)  For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

(John 19:37 KJV)  And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

(John 20:9 KJV)  For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

(Acts 1:16 KJV)  Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

(Acts 8:32 KJV)  The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

(Acts 8:35 KJV)  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

(Rom 4:3 KJV)  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

(Rom 9:17 KJV)  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

(Rom 10:11 KJV)  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

(Rom 11:2 KJV)  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

(Gal 3:8 KJV)  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

(Gal 3:22 KJV)  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

(Gal 4:30 KJV)  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

(1 Tim 5:18 KJV)  For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

(2 Tim 3:16 KJV)  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(James 2:8 KJV)  If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

(James 2:23 KJV)  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

(James 4:5 KJV)  Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

(1 Pet 2:6 KJV)  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

(2 Pet 1:20 KJV)  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

All these New Testament Verses use the words Scripture or Scriptures.
The reason I point these out to you is to show that all these verses are refering to the Old Testament
Old Testament is Scripture. So at least 1/2 your Bible is Scripture. Not just a History Book.
I can also prove that the other half (New Testament) is also Scripture but somehow I don't think you will bother reading it because it hasn't been sanctioned by the Orthodox Church.
Logged
sohma_hatori
Earthbending Novice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Posts: 526


The Blind Bandit


« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2009, 11:33:21 PM »

Why won't you watch this short video? I guarentee you will be impressed.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d

(Rev 22:19 KJV)  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.



On this video, Id like to repeat what others have already said here. THE BIBLE DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE THE CHURCH DID.. Gee, its SO easy for you to point your finger at the ancient Church and say, "Oooh! They added Greek Philosophy and other crap into Christian Teaching blah3x".. Well, no matter how much you use the bible against us, one thing you cannot deny is that, it was the Orthodox Church who CHOOSE which books will be compiled into the Bible. It's exactly the reason why we DON'T have Gnostic heresies inside there. Also, those books were chosen by the standard of the faith that was ALREADY being held by the people of the Church eversince then. The Compilation of the Bible therefore, is a product of the Orthodox Faith, because our bishops wouldn't have placed those sacred books there had they been contradicting what we have always believed..
 This only proves that without Holy Tradition, the Bible wouldn't have any REAL Theological Value. But BECAUSE of Holy Tradition, we Christians recognized that Indeed the Bible is TRULY written with the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and God through the Bishops of the Church revealed to us, which of the myriad of religious writings then, were that which affirms the true faith, the true teachings of Christianity.
Therefore, you protestants CANNOT use the bible against us, because the Bible was compiled to affirm THE Faith, not some other faith..
Logged

""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""
— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender
sohma_hatori
Earthbending Novice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Posts: 526


The Blind Bandit


« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2009, 11:40:18 PM »

I can also prove that the other half (New Testament) is also Scripture but somehow I don't think you will bother reading it because it hasn't been sanctioned by the Orthodox Church.[/b]

What do you mean "not sanctioned by the Orthodox Church"?? As Heorhij has said, THE CHURCH compiled the books of the Bible.. If we hadn't compiled it for you, then I ask you, what would have been your "infallible" basis for the faith??

Come to think of it, it was the Church who actually ALLOWED the use of what is now the bible, for the use of Christian instruction.. Again I repeat, the Bible was compiled on the basis of the faith that the early Christians have already held from the start, therefore the Bible cannot be use to argue against the tenets of Orthodox Christianity.
Logged

""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""
— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2009, 12:00:37 AM »

You don't get it!
Yes your Church may have compiled it through the power of the Holy Spirit. Don't you wonder why only those 66 books were chosen? And doesn't it seem a little strange that ONLY those 66 books follow a particular mathematical pattern. It's proof that these books were GOD inspired. No other book, not even the Machabean books, not the Koran or even a one page essay can follow this pattern.  It is impossible.. Only GOD can accomplish such a feat.
Watch the video and I will shut up.
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2009, 12:06:27 AM »

Quote
Come to think of it, it was the Church who actually ALLOWED the use of what is now the bible, for the use of Christian instruction..

Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Logged
sohma_hatori
Earthbending Novice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Posts: 526


The Blind Bandit


« Reply #103 on: May 20, 2009, 12:11:52 AM »

You don't get it!
Yes your Church may have compiled it through the power of the Holy Spirit. Don't you wonder why only those 66 books were chosen? And doesn't it seem a little strange that ONLY those 66 books follow a particular mathematical pattern. It's proof that these books were GOD inspired. No other book, not even the Machabean books, not the Koran or even a one page essay can follow this pattern.  It is impossible.. Only GOD can accomplish such a feat.
Watch the video and I will shut up.


You don't have to shut up really, and forgive me for any offenses I have done..  Undecided

Mathematics doesn't prove anything concerning this Theological problem.. So what if numbers on the Bible and patterns on the books have 7 on them? That doesn't "prove" that the Bible is God Inspired. I don't think The apostles, or the early Christians for that matter based there respect for scripture on these mathematical patterns! I mean,  My own birthday has many patterns that can lead to seven, does that mean I am God-like?? Or if person X, had his birthday on June 6 2006, does that mean that he is the anti-christ??


My point here is that, there was already a faith before the bible, and the bible was compiled according to that faith. The Bible is not infallible per se, because it was not even the basis for why there IS a Christianity in the first place. We must also be mindful of Holy Tradition, which affirms not only the value of the Bible for the Christian, but also affirms the authenticity and antiquity, of the True Christian faith.

(Modified for errors in grammar)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 12:17:20 AM by sohma_hatori » Logged

""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""
— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender
sohma_hatori
Earthbending Novice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Posts: 526


The Blind Bandit


« Reply #104 on: May 20, 2009, 12:13:18 AM »

Quote
Come to think of it, it was the Church who actually ALLOWED the use of what is now the bible, for the use of Christian instruction..

Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Yes, the Church hid it from us, that's why it is being read from the pulpit during Divine Liturgy, and processed in ceremony before being opened for the readings..
Logged

""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""
— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #105 on: May 20, 2009, 12:43:52 AM »

So the Church was in error in the past?
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,914


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #106 on: May 20, 2009, 12:51:03 AM »

Quote
Come to think of it, it was the Church who actually ALLOWED the use of what is now the bible, for the use of Christian instruction..

Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.

Your ancestors may have hid the Bible from people, but not mine.  People were well-educated enough in the Faith in the 4th-10th Centuries to debate scripture and Theology in the streets.  You can thank the Lord for the reformers all you want, but they brought to the Church what was not needed; we knew the scriptures, read them and treasured them within the context of the continuous tradition of Saints from Christ's time (and before) to the present - they, OTOH, threw out the opinions of those who had read and known and lived the scripture for over 1,000 years (at the time).
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,914


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #107 on: May 20, 2009, 12:52:55 AM »

You don't get it!
Yes your Church may have compiled it through the power of the Holy Spirit. Don't you wonder why only those 66 books were chosen? And doesn't it seem a little strange that ONLY those 66 books follow a particular mathematical pattern. It's proof that these books were GOD inspired. No other book, not even the Machabean books, not the Koran or even a one page essay can follow this pattern.  It is impossible.. Only GOD can accomplish such a feat.

There were more than 66 accepted before the reformers; the Christian Church had for 1,000 years used the LXX as its basic OT.  Not until the incomplete and flawed scholarship of the modern age have we thrown out what the Church had known for so long.

Watch the video and I will shut up.

I sincerely doubt that.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #108 on: May 20, 2009, 12:53:03 AM »

I, my dear friend do not leave my brain at the door when I worship at my Church. You however seem to accept everything your Church teaches with blind faith. We are comanded to be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11 KJV)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

What are the Scriptures? The writings of the Fathers?
They are now gathered into one volume called the Bible.

Oh really?  And who did the gathering.....?

As St. Peter warns (II Peter 3:)15 our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.  God, by the hand of St. Paul, so commands us explicitely (unlike your implicite example of the Bereans). II Thessalonians 2:15.  Since you have refered to you own fall from stedfastness, you accuse Heorhij of blindly accepting, without basis.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #109 on: May 20, 2009, 12:55:21 AM »

Guys.
I believe I am a man of science. If I wasn't such a problem child I would have done well in any science field. It was science that convinced me that GOD is real. The science of Creation and the amount of science in the Bible. From Quantum physics, Hydrological cycles to currents, valleys and paths in the oceans deep. The Bible has the formula for "pie" and "e". I can go on but I won't. My son in law was an atheist till I pointed out the science in the bible. He is now one of the youth leaders at our church.
Others are attracted to the medical side, like the fact that the blood clotting factor is higher on the 8th day after birth. That is why GOD told the Jews to circumcise their boys on the 8th day. Adam had his rib removed to create Eve. The lower rib is the only bone that can regenerate. How did the writer of Genesis know that?
There are many things in the Bible that appeal to many people.
Mathematical structures are one tool that GOD uses. It's no big deal. In fact, it is a big deal because it can not be replicated by man.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,131


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #110 on: May 20, 2009, 12:57:06 AM »

I'm getting dizzy!
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #111 on: May 20, 2009, 12:58:10 AM »

THA SOU RIXO TO LADI NA SE XE-MATIASO.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,914


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #112 on: May 20, 2009, 12:59:38 AM »

So at least 1/2 your Bible is Scripture. Not just a History Book.

Actually, the Fathers specifically call the OT Scripture, and the NT they split into Gospels, Acts, Apocalypse, and Letters.  So it would be more accurate to refer to the first "1/2" as Scripture.

I can also prove that the other half (New Testament) is also Scripture but somehow I don't think you will bother reading it because it hasn't been sanctioned by the Orthodox Church.

If you're implying that the Orthodox Church has not sanctioned whatever writing you're going to put forward as "proof" that the New Testament is Scripture, then don't bother.  The New Testament is the foundation of the Church, the lens for interpreting all Scripture, and the only collection that covers the period before beginning of time (John 1:1) to after the end (countless places besides Revalation).

If you're implying that the Orthodox Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament, You'll need to prove it, or suffer the consequences of grossly misrepresenting the Orthodox position on scripture on an Orthodox board.  If this is indeed what you're implying, you'll need to offer proof (which I'm positive you won't find) in the next 48 hours, or clarify that this is not what you were implying, or you will be warned.  (Yes, this is an official moderatorial request for sources/proof or retraction, as per The Compiled Board policies (link}.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,914


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #113 on: May 20, 2009, 01:03:08 AM »

What are the Scriptures? The writings of the Fathers?
They are now gathered into one volume called the Bible.

Even the Apostles themselves, at the forefront of the wave of Christianity, wouldn't think that all could be contained about the Goodness of Jesus Christ in one (1!) book:

John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #114 on: May 20, 2009, 01:06:19 AM »


...If you're implying that the Orthodox Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament, You'll need to prove it, or suffer the consequences of grossly misrepresenting the Orthodox position on scripture on an Orthodox board.  If this is indeed what you're implying, you'll need to offer proof (which I'm positive you won't find) in the next 48 hours, or clarify that this is not what you were implying, or you will be warned.  (Yes, this is an official moderatorial request for sources/proof or retraction, as per The Compiled Board policies (link}.

No. Your people hereon this Forum are implying that the Orthodox Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament. I came here quoting the Bible and they tell me that the Bible is not held as high as the Church father's writings. Go back and read the previous posts.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,914


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #115 on: May 20, 2009, 01:12:06 AM »

No. Your people hereon this Forum are implying that the Orthodox Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament. I came here quoting the Bible and they tell me that the Bible is not held as high as the Church father's writings. Go back and read the previous posts.

I'm not dense, so if I'm not seeing where people have implied that the Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament, it must be a bit of a stretch.  Why don't you enlighten me with quotes of what you're talking about, so I don't have to guess at which straw you're grasping at.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
sohma_hatori
Earthbending Novice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Posts: 526


The Blind Bandit


« Reply #116 on: May 20, 2009, 01:20:23 AM »

Guys.
I believe I am a man of science. If I wasn't such a problem child I would have done well in any science field. It was science that convinced me that GOD is real. The science of Creation and the amount of science in the Bible. From Quantum physics, Hydrological cycles to currents, valleys and paths in the oceans deep. The Bible has the formula for "pie" and "e". I can go on but I won't. My son in law was an atheist till I pointed out the science in the bible. He is now one of the youth leaders at our church.
Others are attracted to the medical side, like the fact that the blood clotting factor is higher on the 8th day after birth. That is why GOD told the Jews to circumcise their boys on the 8th day. Adam had his rib removed to create Eve. The lower rib is the only bone that can regenerate. How did the writer of Genesis know that?
There are many things in the Bible that appeal to many people.
Mathematical structures are one tool that GOD uses. It's no big deal. In fact, it is a big deal because it can not be replicated by man.


yes, mathematics is a tool... However, it isn't the Number 7 that makes the Bible infallible or the sole basis of faith.. You must respect the fact that Holy Tradition is what gave rise, to the compilation of what is now the Bible.
Logged

""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""
— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #117 on: May 20, 2009, 01:27:21 AM »

Quote
yes, mathematics is a tool... However, it isn't the Number 7 that makes the Bible infallible or the sole basis of faith.. You must respect the fact that Holy Tradition is what gave rise, to the compilation of what is now the Bible.


What I am saying is; if GOD has gone to so much trouble to ad this Heptadic structure, HE must have done it for a reason. Why do YOU think it isn't Infallible (Fallible) [Mr Cleveland, Hi hope you are reading what he's  saying]
Can you please point to something in the bible that proves its fallibility? I have read it over and over and whenever I find something strange, there has always been an explanation.
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #118 on: May 20, 2009, 01:33:00 AM »

Quote
I'm not dense, so if I'm not seeing where people have implied that the Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament, it must be a bit of a stretch.  Why don't you enlighten me with quotes of what you're talking about, so I don't have to guess at which straw you're grasping at.

No body called you dense. A little sensitive may be, but not dense. I'm trying to prove the Bible's infallibility and they are doing the debating.
You’ve obviously made up your mind to moderate me in 48 hours because you don’t like what I’m saying.
Reminds me of a news story last year where some evil Protestants were handing out copies of the new testament in a little Greek village. The local Priest organized a mob to chase them out of town. The poor missionaries were black and blue by the end of the whole affair.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 01:33:49 AM by Pap » Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,914


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #119 on: May 20, 2009, 01:52:38 AM »

No body called you dense. A little sensitive may be, but not dense.

Hardly.  It's ok, I'm not "sensitive."

I'm trying to prove the Bible's infallibility and they are doing the debating. You’ve obviously made up your mind to moderate me in 48 hours because you don’t like what I’m saying. 

I haven't made up my mind; you made an ambiguous statement, and so I provided options for each eventuality.  However, since you haven't retracted, and in fact have re-asserted that you think others are arguing something they're not (i.e. that the Orthodox Church has not "endorsed" the New Testament), I haven't seen any reason to retract my potential warning.

You've made a fairly controversial claim (which, by their nature, are not verboten here); but in making this claim (i.e. that others have been arguing in such a way as to imply that the Orthodox Church does not endorse the New Testament) you have to prove your assertion, since it flies in the face of what our Church explicitly teaches!

Reminds me of a news story last year where some evil Protestants were handing out copies of the new testament in a little Greek village. The local Priest organized a mob to chase them out of town. The poor missionaries were black and blue by the end of the whole affair.

Real Christian-like of your people: going to an already Christian area to poach believers, rather than going to an area where people had not heard the gospel.  People in Eastern Europe are tired of Protestants telling their 50th-generation Christian children that they're not really Christian.  If they had focused the energy that they've directed at Eastern Europe elsewhere were the gospel is not preached or not as prevalent, the number of Christians in the world would be significantly higher.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #120 on: May 20, 2009, 01:59:23 AM »

Are you serious?
I'm arguing for SOLA SCRIPTURE and they are against it.
That is all that is happening here.
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #121 on: May 20, 2009, 02:08:16 AM »

BTW. Has any body watched the video?
http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,914


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #122 on: May 20, 2009, 02:12:53 AM »

Are you serious?

Usually am (outside of the Random Postings thread).

I'm arguing for SOLA SCRIPTURE and they are against it.

Actually, you're trolling (i.e. attempting to inflame anger through your posts while not attempting to enter dialogue).

I suppose the Bible contradicts the beliefes of the Church in many ways, so the best defence is attack.

I can also prove that the other half (New Testament) is also Scripture but somehow I don't think you will bother reading it because it hasn't been sanctioned by the Orthodox Church.

Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.

No. Your people hereon this Forum are implying that the Orthodox Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament. I came here quoting the Bible and they tell me that the Bible is not held as high as the Church father's writings. Go back and read the previous posts.

I'm trying to prove the Bible's infallibility and they are doing the debating.
You’ve obviously made up your mind to moderate me in 48 hours because you don’t like what I’m saying.
Reminds me of a news story last year where some evil Protestants were handing out copies of the new testament in a little Greek village. The local Priest organized a mob to chase them out of town. The poor missionaries were black and blue by the end of the whole affair.

Why don't you address the actual points that some of us have brought up.  Let me summarize just a few of them:

As St. Peter warns (II Peter 3:)15 our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.  God, by the hand of St. Paul, so commands us explicitely (unlike your implicite example of the Bereans). II Thessalonians 2:15.  Since you have refered to you own fall from stedfastness, you accuse Heorhij of blindly accepting, without basis.

Yes, the Church hid it from us, that's why it is being read from the pulpit during Divine Liturgy, and processed in ceremony before being opened for the readings..

My point here is that, there was already a faith before the bible, and the bible was compiled according to that faith. The Bible is not infallible per se, because it was not even the basis for why there IS a Christianity in the first place. We must also be mindful of Holy Tradition, which affirms not only the value of the Bible for the Christian, but also affirms the authenticity and antiquity, of the True Christian faith.

You've made a fairly controversial claim (which, by their nature, are not verboten here); but in making this claim (i.e. that others have been arguing in such a way as to imply that the Orthodox Church does not endorse the New Testament) you have to prove your assertion, since it flies in the face of what our Church explicitly teaches!

Real Christian-like of your people: going to an already Christian area to poach believers, rather than going to an area where people had not heard the gospel.  People in Eastern Europe are tired of Protestants telling their 50th-generation Christian children that they're not really Christian.  If they had focused the energy that they've directed at Eastern Europe elsewhere were the gospel is not preached or not as prevalent, the number of Christians in the world would be significantly higher.

That is all that is happening here.

Not from where I'm sitting.  You're simultaneously trying to prove:

Sola Scriptura
Biblical Infallibility
That the statements of the Orthodox on this forum indicate that the Orthodox Church hasn't endorsed the New Testament
The Church has hid the scriptures from the people
Orthodox people in Eastern Europe chase off Bible-loving Christians
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #123 on: May 20, 2009, 02:42:47 AM »

You CAN NOT defend what the Orthodox Church (BTW That is an oxymoron) is doing to it’s people.
They’ve been using fear for decades to keep people from leaving her. A Greek would rather his family and friends be atheists than Protestants.
When My mother was dyeing, the local stupid moron Priest came in and opened his little doll house covered in icons. Pulled out some communion that was in a bottle no bigger than a thimble and gave her some in a coke spoon. He left without saying a word. He never prayed with her or even asked her if she trusted Christ. I ran out to drag him back in to talk to her but was stopped by my Orthodox relatives. Even at death they don’t try to help. I told her to pray to Christ and not Mary (as she would have) .She gave me the dirtiest look. If she had the energy, she would have got up off her death bed and given me a belting
I suppose my dumb brothers light candles for her and Dad and feed them KOLIVA.
Yes Sir. Your Church does not practice what the Bible teaches. I suppose the clergy will be punished in the end
(James 3:1 NIV)  Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
You can believe what you like, but when you place the writings of mere men and circular reasoning above the writings of GOD you lose.
(Col 2:8 KJV)  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I know I’m all over the place with my rantings but I am furious at the number of my loved ones that are now probably in Hell because of the Orthodox Church.

Tell me. Do you know if you are going to Heaven when you die?
I’m a Protestant and I know I’m going. I bet you and everyone else here can not be sure of their salvation.

 You're being placed on Post Moderation for your unsubstantiated innuendo against the Church which you refuse to acknowledge that you're making and you've refused to offer proof of your position.  You will still be able to post, but your posts must be approved before appearing on the forum.  We will not "silence" dissent, but we will force you to support your position, rather than rely on innuendo to Troll the forum.

The duration of your Post Moderation is 99 days, although we can reduce or increase that based on your posting behavior.

If you feel that this warning is in error, please PM Fr. Chris (the Forum Administrator) to appeal.

- Cleveland, Global Moderator
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:37:25 AM by cleveland » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #124 on: May 20, 2009, 02:51:24 AM »

I’m a Protestant and I know I’m going.
How presumptuous can you be to think you know the secret judgments of God!!?

I bet you and everyone else here can not be sure of their salvation.
In the end, I'd be willing to bet you can't, either.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 02:56:03 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #125 on: May 20, 2009, 03:04:37 AM »

My GOD tells me in HIS book, The BIBLE, that all believers in Christ will go to Heaven.

John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord, " and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

-(Jn. 3:16)God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life".

(Jn. 6:47)"He that believes on me has everlasting life"

(Jn. 17:3)"This is eternal life; that they may know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent:.

(I Jn. 5:11)"This is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life in in His Son"....

(I Jn. 5:13) "These things I have written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life"...

 (Jn. 14:6)" I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life; no man can come to the Father except through me". -- Jesus Christ

Your religion uses one verse to make a doctrine because you're too busy reading the writings of the Church Fathers

(Mat 7:1 NIV)  "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #126 on: May 20, 2009, 03:14:20 AM »

My GOD tells me in HIS book, The BIBLE, that all believers in Christ will go to Heaven.

Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.

Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2009, 03:33:34 AM »

My GOD tells me in HIS book, The BIBLE, that all believers in Christ will go to Heaven.

John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord, " and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

-(Jn. 3:16)God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life".

(Jn. 6:47)"He that believes on me has everlasting life"

(Jn. 17:3)"This is eternal life; that they may know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent:.

(I Jn. 5:11)"This is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life in in His Son"....

(I Jn. 5:13) "These things I have written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life"...

 (Jn. 14:6)" I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life; no man can come to the Father except through me". -- Jesus Christ
You missed--or should I say you conveniently ignored--some verses.  (But then, why should I be surprised, seeing how you and your ilk have taken the entire Bible out of context since before the 1500's.  You see, Pap, there's a reason I'm no longer Protestant.)

Matthew 10:22 - "and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."

Philippians 2:12 - "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

2 Timothy 2:11-13 - "The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful--for he cannot deny himself."

Hebrews 3:5-6 - "Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later,
but Christ was faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope."  (The NKJV translates this as "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.")

Revelation 2:26 - "He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star."

(All verses quoted from the RSV)

Can you honestly say now that you will persevere to the end?  I don't know that I can say that.

Your religion uses one verse to make a doctrine because you're too busy reading the writings of the Church Fathers

(Mat 7:1 NIV)  "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
And what doctrine would that be, O Divine judge of our souls?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 03:37:52 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #128 on: May 20, 2009, 03:39:05 AM »

Quote
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2009, 03:42:54 AM »

Quote
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.
Do you really care to know why we pray to Mary and the Saints (because they direct our hearts and minds to Christ), or are you content to just continue to troll our forum with ignorant garbage?
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2009, 03:48:24 AM »

PeterTheAleut
If I fail, I was never a "follower of Christ". I was a liar.
If I am a "follower of Christ" I will endure till the end.
Worship GOD in the name of Christ. Not GOD in the name of Mary or your Saint.
The bible also says that Heaven rejoices whenever a soul gets saved.
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #131 on: May 20, 2009, 03:50:30 AM »

Quote
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.
Do you really care to know why we pray to Mary and the Saints (because they direct our hearts and minds to Christ), or are you content to just continue to troll our forum with ignorant garbage?

I can tell, this is going  to be good.
Go ahead. Can you do it without circular reasoning? Can you do it Biblically?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #132 on: May 20, 2009, 03:54:33 AM »

PeterTheAleut
If I fail, I was never a "follower of Christ". I was a liar.
If I am a "follower of Christ" I will endure till the end.
I love it when the "perseverence of the saints" or "once saved, always saved" crowd confuses 5-Point Calvinism with Scripture to produce unbiblical stuff like this.


Quote
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.
Do you really care to know why we pray to Mary and the Saints (because they direct our hearts and minds to Christ), or are you content to just continue to troll our forum with ignorant garbage?

I can tell, this is going  to be good.
Go ahead. Can you do it without circular reasoning? Can you do it Biblically?
You obviously aren't here to engage us in serious discussion, so why should I?
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #133 on: May 20, 2009, 03:56:34 AM »

Oh?
OK. You can use circular reasoning and you don't have to quote the Bible.
Why are you guys so precious?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,454


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #134 on: May 20, 2009, 04:01:31 AM »

To everyone else:

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!

Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #135 on: May 20, 2009, 04:03:50 AM »

Look who's taking his bat n  ball and going home Cry
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,147


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #136 on: May 20, 2009, 05:04:31 AM »

Every single Orthodox liturgical service (Divine Liturgy, Vespers, Matins, Compline, Midnight Office, Requiem, Marriage, Funeral, Baptism, etc) are so stuffed full of scripture (OT and NT). it ain't funny. To claim the Orthodox Church rejects the NT is simply laughable, as others on this forum have correctly pointed out.

You have a very serious grudge against Orthodoxy, through the perhaps careless action of one priest with reagrd to your dying mother. To tar and feather Orthodoxy on this one incident is ridiculous. Regarding sola scriptura, so many on this thread have shown lime and again that scripture did not fall out of the sky, but that the Church of the Apostles, the Orthodox Church, determined which books made it into canon. Numerology had absolutely nothing to do with it, and it is an insult to the Apostles, the holy Fathers, and to the teachings of Christ Himself to suggest that it did. Numerology is a pagan pursuit, incompatible with Christianity, yet you use it to defend your mistaken position.
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #137 on: May 20, 2009, 05:11:14 AM »

It's not Numerology. There are no predictions made. It's only used to prove GOD'S input
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #138 on: May 20, 2009, 05:12:25 AM »

I suppose desecrating a corpse is OK?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 05:13:06 AM by Pap » Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,147


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #139 on: May 20, 2009, 05:32:53 AM »

I suppose desecrating a corpse is OK?

Desecrating? Corpse? Euphemia was already a proclaimed saint before her posthumous endorsement of Orthodox doctrine. God is the God of the living, not of the dead. The saints and righteous ones are alive in Christ, though their earthly lives have ended.
Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #140 on: May 20, 2009, 06:02:01 AM »

I suppose desecrating a corpse is OK?

Desecrating? Corpse? Euphemia was already a proclaimed saint before her posthumous endorsement of Orthodox doctrine. God is the God of the living, not of the dead. The saints and righteous ones are alive in Christ, though their earthly lives have ended.

Numerology Bad.
Desecrating Good. Haha.
If I use your logic, the numbers are in the Bible. So the Orthodox Church compiled the Bible Therefore numerology in the Bible is OK
My dear lost friend. What is a Saint? You people can't even judge yourselves, how can you know what is in the heart of a future Saint? The Bible says we are the saints, not an elect few that the Church chooses.
Who's righteous? I can name you at least a dozen righteous people who think nothing of giving away all their possessions and risk their lives to evangelize the world. Are they Saints with a capital S ? NO! Just saints.
BTW. That line that you spin; "God is the God of the living, not of the dead" doesn't wash.
I know many SDA's who have a similar line that they spin; GOD is a loving GOD he wouldn't........"
That is a mark of a CULT! Once you start using human reasoning, you deny Christ's sacrifice.
News Flash
Every Church has a relic from its Saint. Apparently a study has revealed that most saints must have had 15 fingers on each hand and 13 heads. There is an international market for Saint relics. Once a market is created, it invites corruption. How much would you pay for the finger of your favorite Saint?
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,147


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #141 on: May 20, 2009, 06:13:41 AM »

Quote
How much would you pay for the finger of your favorite Saint?

Holy relics are not trophies or keepsakes to be "collected" as one collects matchbooks, baseball cards or Ming dynasty porcelain. Holy relics are priceless vessels of the grace of God, and therefore to suggest that I would be willing to pay for a relic is utterly abominable.

If anyone were to give me a holy relic, I would treasure and honor it by embedding it in an icon of that saint, and donating that icon to my church so that as many people as possible could have the privilege of praying to, and honoring that saint through the veneration of his or her icon. But such ideas and practices are perhaps beyond your understanding.  Sad
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 06:14:06 AM by LBK » Logged
Pap
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #142 on: May 20, 2009, 06:33:30 AM »

Pray to it?
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,147


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #143 on: May 20, 2009, 06:46:18 AM »

You obviously have not read my post, or have chosen to misinterpret and distort it to fit your own mistaken ideas. This is what I wrote:

Quote
praying to, and honoring that saint through the veneration of his or her icon.
Logged
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,874


« Reply #144 on: May 20, 2009, 07:02:11 AM »

Why won't you watch this short video? I guarentee you will be impressed.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d

(Rev 22:19 KJV)  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Impressed by one a continual parade of Bible proving alleged experts? Why not add the Bible Code to your sales pitch?
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #145 on: May 20, 2009, 08:21:26 AM »

Quote
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints.

See, now you are just making up new rules so you can play God and exclude us from Heaven.

At first you said:

"My GOD tells me in HIS book, The BIBLE, that all believers in Christ will go to Heaven."


Quote
Jesus said to pray to Him.

Oops, you haven't read the Bible, have you?   NOWHERE does it tell us to pray to Jesus.  The most it tells us is to pray to the Father in Jesus' name.  This is a sticky point which Protestants admit when pushed but they always ignore it anway.  Praying to Jesus is not scriptural.  If you are sola scriptura STOP DOING IT!
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #146 on: May 20, 2009, 08:33:01 AM »

When I was Orthodox I was under the impression that the Bible was a GOD inspired book. With all their faults our uneducated priests never denied that it was the "word of GOD". Now you're trying to tell me it isn't?

As others have already said, the Word of God is Christ. The written Bible is a part of what we call the Holy Tradition of the Church. There are many other parts of it.

I suppose the Bible contradicts the beliefes of the Church in many ways, so the best defence is attack.

The Church interprets the Bible, not individual humans who tend to read a lot of things into it.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:52:33 AM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,914


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #147 on: May 20, 2009, 08:40:54 AM »

I'm going to encourage any further participation in this thread to respond to the substantive arguments Pap has made, and not to the Trolling statements and innuendo in his posts.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #148 on: May 20, 2009, 08:54:40 AM »

I'm going to encourage any further participation in this thread to respond to the substantive arguments Pap has made, and not to the Trolling statements and innuendo in his posts.
And I am going to watch this thread, and if I see insulting remarks made, I may lock it. -Heorhij, section mod.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:55:19 AM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #149 on: May 20, 2009, 09:56:47 AM »

It's not Numerology. There are no predictions made. It's only used to prove GOD'S input
What is your point? The Bible IS inspired BY GOD. Why else would the Orthodox hold it in such high regard? You need to answer a couple questions for a minute.
1) If the Bible is all we need, and SO clear in its message, why can't the Protestants agree on what it has to say? Almost every doctrine has multiple interpretations in the Protestant World.
2) If we are "once saved always saved", as you claim is the truth, how do you KNOW 100% that you are part of the ELECT that will go to Heaven? You say that we can't say 100% that WE KNOW, how do you know?
Logged
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #150 on: May 23, 2009, 03:51:19 PM »

Quote
My dear lost friend. What is a Saint? You people can't even judge yourselves, how can you know what is in the heart of a future Saint? The Bible says we are the saints, not an elect few that the Church chooses.

You are very mistaken on the Orthodox idea of a saint. The Church recognizes people who led exceptionally holy lives as saints, but there are many many more saints that have probably been forgotten.

I'm not sure if you have ever been to an Orthodox liturgy, but when the priest censes the church he doesn't just cense the icons of saints, but he censes the people too. The reason being is what you just said: "The Bible says we are the saints."
Logged

signature
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #151 on: May 23, 2009, 04:37:45 PM »


Quote
Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Quote
Yes, the Church hid it from us, that's why it is being read from the pulpit during Divine Liturgy, and processed in ceremony before being opened for the readings

Quote
So the Church was in error in the past?

I just had to point this out Pap, but sohma_ha was being facetious. The Orthodox liturgy has always had scripture readings in its 2000 year history; we even have church services where the entire gospel books are chanted out loud during Holy Week.

I think you are also misinterpreting our view of Biblical Infallibility. The Church teaches that the Bible is theologically infallible, but not scientifically infallible (the Bible should not be used as a science book). Sure, there are many things (as you pointed out) that have been proven to be scientifically and mathematically beneficial (like pi), but it doesn't mean everything is scientifically perfect. Either way, it is irrelevant to the Christian faith whether or not the Bible correctly calculated pi, it's the theology that matters.
Logged

signature
sohma_hatori
Earthbending Novice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Posts: 526


The Blind Bandit


« Reply #152 on: May 24, 2009, 03:36:13 AM »

Indeed, I was being sarcastic on that qoute Pap..


Quote
Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Quote
Yes, the Church hid it from us, that's why it is being read from the pulpit during Divine Liturgy, and processed in ceremony before being opened for the readings

Quote
So the Church was in error in the past?

I just had to point this out Pap, but sohma_ha was being facetious. The Orthodox liturgy has always had scripture readings in its 2000 year history; we even have church services where the entire gospel books are chanted out loud during Holy Week.

I think you are also misinterpreting our view of Biblical Infallibility. The Church teaches that the Bible is theologically infallible, but not scientifically infallible (the Bible should not be used as a science book). Sure, there are many things (as you pointed out) that have been proven to be scientifically and mathematically beneficial (like pi), but it doesn't mean everything is scientifically perfect. Either way, it is irrelevant to the Christian faith whether or not the Bible correctly calculated pi, it's the theology that matters.

Logged

""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""
— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender
sohma_hatori
Earthbending Novice
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Posts: 526


The Blind Bandit


« Reply #153 on: May 24, 2009, 03:44:47 AM »

Quote
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.

There are many instances in the Bible where Old Testament Holy People prayed to God saying, "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.. etc".. You know why? Because, THEY DO INTERCEDE FOR US, and what's more Pap, THERE INTERCESSION ACTUALLY MATTERS (Roll Eyes

If God, would hear the prayers of this people for the sake of the prayers of those who intercede for us, how much more for us Christians when those who have led righteous lives that have gone before, would actually PRAY FOR US HERE ON EARTH.. What a joy it is and a blessing for us, that the saints pray for us!
Logged

""Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it's source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.""
— Iroh- Avatar:The Last Airbender
Tags: toll houses Canon of scriptures Troll 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.404 seconds with 181 queries.