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stanley123
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« on: May 10, 2009, 03:50:20 AM » |
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There has been a case in the news lately of a popular Catholic priest who wants to marry. However, he has taken the promise of celibacy and besides, marriage is not allowed after ordination. The Episcopal Church, however, has said that if he were to marry and drop out of the Catholic Church, he would be most welcome with his wife in the Episcopal Church. I know that the rule in Catholic and Orthodox is that a priest must be married before ordination. However, suppose a Roman Catholic priest were to marry and leave the Catholic Church. Suppose further that his wife to be was a fervent Orthodox Christian and he had been studying and reading and praying and thinking about joining the Orthodox Church for some time. Would then the Eastern Orthodox Church accept him as a candidate for a married priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church or Western rite were he to apply for such?
I know of a case where an entire Byzantine Catholic Church, including the priests and much of the congregation, went over to the Eastern Orthodox Church. There was a certain ceremony and prayers were said, but other than that, it did not seem to be that difficult to accomplish and the whole process went smoothly.
Would the Eastern Orthodox see it as a problem to accept a married (ex) Catholic priest, since he was ordained as a priest in the RC Church and then after Catholic ordination, he got married. Or would it be not a problem, since there will be new prayers and ceremonies according to which he would be installed in the Orthodox Church, either Eastern or Western rite?
In the Catholic view, once a priest, you are always a priest and the ordination leaves an indelible mark. However, I have used the phrase (ex)Catholic priest, since after his marriage, he would not be allowed to function officially and licitly as a Catholic priest within the Catholic Church.
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« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 03:53:23 AM by stanley123 »
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AlexanderOfBergamo
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2009, 05:14:33 AM » |
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Dear stanley123,
I found this topic very interesting and decided to tell you my personal understanding of the Orthodox position on the issue.
As you already correctly said, the Orthodox Church doesn't admit marriage after ordination. This is a fact and I personally admit that this position should be kept as severe as possible. Nevertheless, whether this man would embrace Orthodoxy, there would be only a person to judge the situation: the local bishop. As you certainly know, a bishop can exercise the power of canon law in two different ways: a severe application and a less severe one. If I were a bishop (fortunately I'm not, since this is such a great task...) I would find out what the true intentions of the (ex) Catholic priest were. I think there even might be priests who live the Catholic Church only because of priestly celibacy!
In the aforemantioned case, it seems this priest might fit in this category, since his Orthodox faith seems to be not so deep since he even "gave attention" to a possible conversion to the Episcopal Church. Anyway, in case of a sincere conversion, there might have been two different possibilities for the priest to enter the Orthodox Church: acceptance in Orthodoxy by economia, and the repetition of all the sacraments from baptism to ordination (maybe in those jurisdictions who practice re-baptism for RCs).
Still, don't blame me for suggesting that the question you proposed sounds a little bit like the provocation of the Sadducees to Jesus in Mt 22,23 and following and to this I respond like Jesus in Mt 16:11-12...
The Church is not built on divinly inspired canons, but the Church is divinly inspired to create and apply canons in order to build on them the New Man in Christ Jesus. The power of loosing and binding, which you RCs assign to Peter exclusively, is for us a power given to each successor of the apostles; each bishop should look for the good of his flock and apply the canons time after time according to justice and none of us can discuss the decisions of a bishop but a decision of the entire church.
Another and last word to say: If I were a priest sincerely converted to Orthodoxy and still wanted to marry, I would have renounced to my priestly functions, since the church is an institution we must follow and listen to with respect like our mother and not a terrestrial power to manipulate at one's will.
In Christ, Alex
PS: I'm very interested to read other opinions from my brethren on this subject!
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"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
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mike
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2009, 07:59:47 AM » |
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As far as I know all local Churches consider Catholic sacraments valid (eg. Catholic Priests are converted to EO Church by confession and Eucharist and they become Orthodox Priests) so such a situation won't take place. He would be reposed and given an Orthodox marriage (I suppose the shortened rite as divorced and widowers get) but he won't be able to serve as a Priest.
The Church cannot get back the sacrament of Priesthood from the man but can forbid to make Priest's duties. He will be in the same situation as a cradle EO Priest who got married second time and was reposed for that. He is still is a Priest (eg. takes part in Priest retreat) but he does not serve.
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Elpidophoros
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2009, 02:18:12 PM » |
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As far as I know all local Churches consider Catholic sacraments valid (eg. Catholic Priests are converted to EO Church by confession and Eucharist and they become Orthodox Priests) so such a situation won't take place. He would be reposed and given an Orthodox marriage (I suppose the shortened rite as divorced and widowers get) but he won't be able to serve as a Priest.
The Church cannot get back the sacrament of Priesthood from the man but can forbid to make Priest's duties. He will be in the same situation as a cradle EO Priest who got married second time and was reposed for that. He is still is a Priest (eg. takes part in Priest retreat) but he does not serve.
One example: the indonesian priest Fr.Dionysios.He was RC priest, convert into Orthodoxy through EP by baptism——the EP's priest who baptized him didn't believe the theory of "valid heretical mysteria".He got married (mysterion)in EP.Then studied in MP;ordained by E.M. Hilarion of ROCOR.So,Fr. Dionysios had experience in three jurisdictions,non of them taught him such theory like"valid heterodox sacraments" "(ex)Catholic priest can not be ordained" or "The Church cannot get back the sacrament of Priesthood from the man". In fact ,in all of those jurisdictions ,things are opposite from what you described. |
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SolEX01
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2009, 03:02:41 PM » |
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The answer would be no simply because the Catholic Priest married, violating his vow of celibacy.
In the Orthodox Church, that would be like an Archimandrite (celibate Priest) committing bigamy by marrying a woman in addition to being married to the Church. No amount of economy could justify an ex-Catholic Priest, after marriage, being received as an Orthodox Priest.
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Elpidophoros
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2009, 03:22:08 PM » |
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The answer would be no simply because the Catholic Priest married, violating his vow of celibacy.
In the Orthodox Church, that would be like an Archimandrite (celibate Priest) committing bigamy by marrying a woman in addition to being married to the Church. No amount of economy could justify an ex-Catholic Priest, after marriage, being received as an Orthodox Priest.
Aha,ti kala! Now we not only consider heterodox "sacraments" valid,even should accept their "vows".  |
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mike
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2009, 03:24:21 PM » |
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One example: the indonesian priest Fr.Dionysios.He was RC priest, convert into Orthodoxy through EP by baptism——the EP's priest who baptized him didn't believe the theory of "valid heretical mysteria".He got married (mysterion)in EP.Then studied in MP;ordained by E.M. Hilarion of ROCOR.So,Fr. Dionysios had experience in three jurisdictions,non of them taught him such theory like"valid heterodox sacraments" "(ex)Catholic priest can not be ordained" or "The Church cannot get back the sacrament of Priesthood from the man". In fact ,in all of those jurisdictions ,things are opposite from what you described.
I know about one whole former Greek-Catholic Monastery accepted by confession and Holy Communion to the Orthodox Church. |
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Elpidophoros
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2009, 03:38:29 PM » |
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One example: the indonesian priest Fr.Dionysios.He was RC priest, convert into Orthodoxy through EP by baptism——the EP's priest who baptized him didn't believe the theory of "valid heretical mysteria".He got married (mysterion)in EP.Then studied in MP;ordained by E.M. Hilarion of ROCOR.So,Fr. Dionysios had experience in three jurisdictions,non of them taught him such theory like"valid heterodox sacraments" "(ex)Catholic priest can not be ordained" or "The Church cannot get back the sacrament of Priesthood from the man". In fact ,in all of those jurisdictions ,things are opposite from what you described.
I know about one whole former Greek-Catholic Monastery accepted by confession and Holy Communion to the Orthodox Church. In waht background did they do this? If they did this as a kind of oikonomia,by other word,they did not believe the Holy Mysteria exist out side of Church, nor consider the papists' rites per se equal the orthodox mysteria,they did such oikonomia,in order to avoid persecution or disturbance,through chrism or confession,infuse the Theia Charis of Panagiou Pneumatos into the necroform of the heretic's "sacraments";then such oikonomia is acceptable. Contrarily,if they did this,in order to propagandize the heretical theory of "Mysteria can survive by themselves outside of Church and without Church" or "heretics held real Mysteria".Then they are heretics by themselves,the acceptance(of heterodox)also was invalid,since the heretics cannot accept other heretics into real Church. |
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mike
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2009, 03:49:49 PM » |
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In waht background did they do this? I think because of that: Contrarily,if they did this,in order to propagandize the heretical theory of "Mysteria can survive by themselves outside of Church and without Church" or "heretics held real Mysteria".Then they are heretics by themselves,the acceptance(of heterodox)also was invalid,since the heretics cannot accept other heretics into real Church.
How easy it is to blame someone for heresy... Let's stop off-posting or switch to the proper thread. |
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ialmisry
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2009, 03:56:01 PM » |
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One example: the indonesian priest Fr.Dionysios.He was RC priest, convert into Orthodoxy through EP by baptism——the EP's priest who baptized him didn't believe the theory of "valid heretical mysteria".He got married (mysterion)in EP.Then studied in MP;ordained by E.M. Hilarion of ROCOR.So,Fr. Dionysios had experience in three jurisdictions,non of them taught him such theory like"valid heterodox sacraments" "(ex)Catholic priest can not be ordained" or "The Church cannot get back the sacrament of Priesthood from the man". In fact ,in all of those jurisdictions ,things are opposite from what you described.
I know about one whole former Greek-Catholic Monastery accepted by confession and Holy Communion to the Orthodox Church. In waht background did they do this? If they did this as a kind of oikonomia,by other word,they did not believe the Holy Mysteria exist out side of Church, nor consider the papists' rites per se equal the orthodox mysteria,they did such oikonomia,in order to avoid persecution or disturbance,through chrism or confession,infuse the Theia Charis of Panagiou Pneumatos into the necroform of the heretic's "sacraments";then such oikonomia is acceptable. Contrarily,if they did this,in order to propagandize the heretical theory of "Mysteria can survive by themselves outside of Church and without Church" or "heretics held real Mysteria".Then they are heretics by themselves,the acceptance(of heterodox)also was invalid,since the heretics cannot accept other heretics into real Church. "Infuse the Theia Charis of Panagiou Pneumatos into the necroform"? LOL. I have to reject the idea just by the terminology used. Are we going to decanonize St. Cosntantine because he was baptized by an Arian? |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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Elpidophoros
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2009, 04:51:19 PM » |
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How easy it is to blame someone for heresy... Oh,that's too bad to blame somebody for heresy.... But not as bad as advocating "papist vows valid for orthodox" and by this way implying many pious orthodox priests(former RC priests)are anaxioi even pseudopriests,and their presbyteras intrigantes,their children bastards! |
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Elpidophoros
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2009, 04:52:50 PM » |
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Are we going to decanonize St. Cosntantine because he was baptized by an Arian?
hearsay |
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mike
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2009, 04:59:54 PM » |
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Personally I've never heard of RC Priests leaving their Church, getting married and being re-ordained in the EO Church.
I would not allow them to marry because they proved that they aren't reliable people and do not keep their promises. They do not convert because of theology but because of getting married. They broke their wows once so why not to break them again?
They can be very religious EO laymen but not Priests.
Each man bot in RC and EO Church is aware that he cannot get married after have being ordained and still be a priest. It's even not about validity of sacraments but about do not changing ones mind and keeping promises.
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« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 05:00:13 PM by mike »
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Elpidophoros
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2009, 05:20:36 PM » |
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Personally I've never heard of RC Priests leaving their Church, getting married and being re-ordained in the EO Church.
There are many,and belong to various canonical jurisdictions. I would not allow them to marry because they proved that they aren't reliable people and do not keep their promises. They do not convert because of theology but because of getting married. They broke their wows once so why not to break them again? So you think no one RC should "convert"into Orthodoxy,because by the action of conversion they broke their "promises(to be loyal to 'Holy See of Rome'klp klp)". And how can you make such judgement like"They do not convert because of theology but because of getting married. "? If they do no more believe in the heresy of RC,why they should still keep the "vow" they made before and not get married? They can be very religious EO laymen but not Priests. Why and how? Each man bot in RC and EO Church is aware that he cannot get married after have being ordained and still be a priest. It's even not about validity of sacraments but about do not changing ones mind and keeping promises. Your ecclesiology is terrible! No one can convert into Orthodxy unless he changed his mind——this is "metanoia ". How can you blame people for their metanoia? |
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ialmisry
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2009, 08:52:26 PM » |
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Personally I've never heard of RC Priests leaving their Church, getting married and being re-ordained in the EO Church.
There are many,and belong to various canonical jurisdictions. There are many Vatican priests in the EO, without having been ordained by us. In particular, I do not think a single priest was ordained while being absorbed by us in the liquidation of the Vatican's churches under the communists. Also: Ex-Roman Catholic priest to lead local Orthodox flock At the invitation of the Rev. Raphael Biernacki, who came from Lis' Toledo
neighborhood and is a former pastor of St. Nicholas, Lis attended a Divine
Liturgy at St. George Cathedral in Toledo.
He began attending Orthodox services while working with Biernacki and, in
January 2000, was vested as an ordained priest in the Orthodox Church in
America.
"One stipulation was that I would recognize my Roman Catholic orders to
remain celibate, and I had no problem with that," said Lis, who said he
likes the stability of the Orthodox church. I would not allow them to marry because they proved that they aren't reliable people and do not keep their promises. They do not convert because of theology but because of getting married. They broke their wows once so why not to break them again? So you think no one RC should "convert"into Orthodoxy,because by the action of conversion they broke their "promises(to be loyal to 'Holy See of Rome'klp klp)". No, their vow of celibacy. Their monastic profession resembles ours, so a commitment of that sort it similar. The only issue that might call for economia is that the Vatican requires monastic vows before ordination. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. I Cor. 7:20. And how can you make such judgement like"They do not convert because of theology but because of getting married. "? If they do no more believe in the heresy of RC,why they should still keep the "vow" they made before and not get married? Why should they be released from them? What if someone is married by the Vatican, divorces his wife, remarries, converts to Orthodoxy and then presents himself for ordination? What say you? Each man bot in RC and EO Church is aware that he cannot get married after have being ordained and still be a priest. It's even not about validity of sacraments but about do not changing ones mind and keeping promises. Your ecclesiology is terrible! No one can convert into Orthodxy unless he changed his mind——this is "metanoia ". How can you blame people for their metanoia? So someone married by the Vatican can change his mind and abandon his wife and family and take another when he embraces Orthodoxy? |
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« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 08:57:34 PM by ialmisry »
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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SolEX01
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2009, 08:55:48 PM » |
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The answer would be no simply because the Catholic Priest married, violating his vow of celibacy.
In the Orthodox Church, that would be like an Archimandrite (celibate Priest) committing bigamy by marrying a woman in addition to being married to the Church. No amount of economy could justify an ex-Catholic Priest, after marriage, being received as an Orthodox Priest. Aha,ti kala! Now we not only consider heterodox "sacraments" valid,even should accept their "vows". Read carefully, I drew an analogy to explain why the answer was no.  |
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The young fogey
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2009, 09:34:16 PM » |
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Usually an RC priest who quits to get married and then becomes Orthodox isn't allowed to serve as an Orthodox priest. The Russians in the late 1800s didn't let Birkbeck do it.
But there are a few exceptions.
I think in Manassas, Va. a few years ago a Greek Catholic priest did just that and is serving as a priest in ACROD. But IIRC they reordained him, which they wouldn't do for a man married before ordination. (Historically ex-Greek Catholics almost always are received economically, as happened 71 years ago when ACROD was started. Sacraments aren't repeated.)
Once was slightly acquainted with another Greek Catholic priest (Ukrainian Catholic) who did it and served as a priest with the South Bound Brook Ukrainians in the US before they became canonical. When they became canonical he was grandfathered in. So he is an Orthodox priest to this day.
Economy.
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StGeorge
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2009, 10:32:59 PM » |
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Usually an RC priest who quits to get married and then becomes Orthodox isn't allowed to serve as an Orthodox priest. The Russians in the late 1800s didn't let Birkbeck do it.
But there are a few exceptions.
I think in Manassas, Va. a few years ago a Greek Catholic priest did just that and is serving as a priest in ACROD. But IIRC they reordained him, which they wouldn't do for a man married before ordination. (Historically ex-Greek Catholics almost always are received economically, as happened 71 years ago when ACROD was started. Sacraments aren't repeated.)
Once was slightly acquainted with another Greek Catholic priest (Ukrainian Catholic) who did it and served as a priest with the South Bound Brook Ukrainians in the US before they became canonical. When they became canonical he was grandfathered in. So he is an Orthodox priest to this day.
Economy.
I actually was going to mention the very same case of Manassas, VA. |
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mike
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2009, 04:45:52 AM » |
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So you think no one RC should "convert"into Orthodoxy,because by the action of conversion they broke their "promises(to be loyal to 'Holy See of Rome'klp klp)". They broke the promises they had made to the other people. Not even religious vows, but even lay ones. Thay promised to live in celibacy and broke it. If someone borrows money from me and do not gives it back I do not lend him more. They can/should convert to Orthodoxy but why insisting on being a Priest? There are plenty of EO people who weren't ordained. And how can you make such judgement like"They do not convert because of theology but because of getting married. "? If they do no more believe in the heresy of RC,why they should still keep the "vow" they made before and not get married? They proved their words aren't worthy. They lied once while having been ordained and they should not be granted for that. Being a Priest is a distinction. Not everyone should be one. If they do not longer believe in RC heresies being an EO laymen would be enough for them. There aren't grades or levels in Heaven. Your ecclesiology is terrible! No one can convert into Orthodoxy unless he changed his mind——this is "metanoia ". How can you blame people for their metanoia? Who knows whether they would change their mind again, convert to Mormonism or Islam and get married a few more times. |
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« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 04:53:31 AM by mike »
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TinaG
I am not a pessimist - I'm just grimly realistic!
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Faith: Orthodox
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Posts: 870
If only my family were this normal !
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« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2009, 11:00:59 AM » |
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I'll bow out of the canonical discussion, but it seems to me that ordination can't correct a basic character defect and what makes someone morally objectionable to remain as a RC priest isn't going to make them any more acceptable to be an Orthodox one. If you were a big enough lech to break your vows, do it in a very public way, then try and use your own weakness to support a change in celibacy requirements and priestly marriage once you're caught, than repentance, not the priesthood (either RC or Orthodox) is your only recourse. This guy's just too "cutie" for his own good - a mild case of ugly might have been an equalizer to keep him on the narrow path.
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On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.
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The young fogey
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 09:36:36 PM » |
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Usually an RC priest who quits to get married and then becomes Orthodox isn't allowed to serve as an Orthodox priest. The Russians in the late 1800s didn't let Birkbeck do it. Sorry. It was J.J. Overbeck. |
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Robb
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2009, 08:20:30 PM » |
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I was re baptized when coming into Orthodoxy from the RCC. The issue of whether or not Catholic sacraments are valid has not been decided one way or another by the whole Orthodox Church so there can be varying opinions on this issue. Wasn't there a recent controversy when the Greek Orthodox Church in Europe voted to accept all converts to Orthodoxy without re baptism, provided that they were already baptized in a Church in the Trinitarian formula? I also remember that the ROC issued a statement claiming that they were not entirely in agreement with he Greeks on this issue and the matter was still up for individual priest to decide?
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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Robb
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« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2009, 08:23:57 PM » |
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Personally I've never heard of RC Priests leaving their Church, getting married and being re-ordained in the EO Church.
I would not allow them to marry because they proved that they aren't reliable people and do not keep their promises. They do not convert because of theology but because of getting married. They broke their wows once so why not to break them again?
They can be very religious EO laymen but not Priests.
Each man bot in RC and EO Church is aware that he cannot get married after have being ordained and still be a priest. It's even not about validity of sacraments but about do not changing ones mind and keeping promises.
It probably doesn't happen much in Poland considering all the bad blood that tends to exist between Orthodox and RC's. I cannot imagine an ethnic Polish Catholic priest from Poland converting to Orthodoxy considering the low opinion that most Poles seem to have towards the East, even Greek Catholics for that matter. I do hope that I'm wrong and that relations between both Churches have improved a lot since those dark days I speak of (between the wars mostly). |
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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StGeorge
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« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2009, 09:22:35 PM » |
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Personally I've never heard of RC Priests leaving their Church, getting married and being re-ordained in the EO Church.
I would not allow them to marry because they proved that they aren't reliable people and do not keep their promises. They do not convert because of theology but because of getting married. They broke their wows once so why not to break them again?
They can be very religious EO laymen but not Priests.
Each man bot in RC and EO Church is aware that he cannot get married after have being ordained and still be a priest. It's even not about validity of sacraments but about do not changing ones mind and keeping promises.
It probably doesn't happen much in Poland considering all the bad blood that tends to exist between Orthodox and RC's. I cannot imagine an ethnic Polish Catholic priest from Poland converting to Orthodoxy considering the low opinion that most Poles seem to have towards the East, even Greek Catholics for that matter. I do hope that I'm wrong and that relations between both Churches have improved a lot since those dark days I speak of (between the wars mostly). I know there is an Orthodox Church of Poland, with the greater concentration of Orthodox in the eastern part of Poland. Are these Orthodox in Poland mostly ethnic Poles, or are they other ethnicities? |
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mike
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« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2009, 10:46:56 AM » |
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It probably doesn't happen much in Poland considering all the bad blood that tends to exist between Orthodox and RC's. I cannot imagine an ethnic Polish Catholic priest from Poland converting to Orthodoxy considering the low opinion that most Poles seem to have towards the East, even Greek Catholics for that matter. I do hope that I'm wrong and that relations between both Churches have improved a lot since those dark days I speak of (between the wars mostly).
There is a Monastery founded by several Byzantine Catholics Monks, who coverted to Orthodoxy via confession and Communion. I also know two Priests who converted from RCC but they had not been ordained in the RCC. The relations improved a lot of course, but in some places they are not as good as they could be. On the other hand we have very bad relations with Ukrainian Catholics and Neouniates. I know there is an Orthodox Church of Poland, with the greater concentration of Orthodox in the eastern part of Poland. Are these Orthodox in Poland mostly ethnic Poles, or are they other ethnicities?
The majority of EO believers in Poland have Belarusian/Ukrainian/Lemko/Russian roots, but many of the people tend to cut them off and pretend to be ethnic Poles. I know some ethnic Poles converts but there aren't many of them. There are also Georgians, Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians etc. |
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« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 10:48:39 AM by mike »
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IreneOlinyk
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Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox (EP)
Posts: 203
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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2009, 12:44:48 PM » |
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Personally I've never heard of RC Priests leaving their Church, getting married and being re-ordained in the EO Church.
I would not allow them to marry because they proved that they aren't reliable people and do not keep their promises. They do not convert because of theology but because of getting married. They broke their wows once so why not to break them again?
They can be very religious EO laymen but not Priests.
Each man bot in RC and EO Church is aware that he cannot get married after have being ordained and still be a priest. It's even not about validity of sacraments but about do not changing ones mind and keeping promises.
Mike, I think it is unusual but it does happen. For example, there was a priest in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada in the cathedral parish in Toronto for about 40 years. It was only after he died and his extensive obituary appeared in "The Toronto Star" in English that many of his parishioners found out he had bee a Ukrainian Catholic Redemptorist Monk until the age of 39! But his was a story of a tragic childhood. He & his brother had been born to Ukrainian immigrants in PA in the USA. During the depression, his father died in an accident and he, his brother & mother were deported back to Galicia, Ukraine. Soon after his mother died. The 2 young boys (8 & 10 years) were placed in a Redemportorist monastery. So he was rejected by his mother's family (maybe for financial reasons) & placed in a monastery with many monks of Belgian origin. Who knows what pressures were placed on his to become a monk? He was very bright and sent to the Theological Academy to study for his Ph.D. He was also the prefect for the rest of the students who were almost all sons of married priests. At this time there was a class division between the middle class intelligensia of priest families & his own birth family who were of peasant origin. He was also influenced by his studies to reject the Latinizations of the Retemptorists he encountered inthe orphanage & noviatiate. Then World War 2 broke out. Some how he ended up in a DP camp in Germany. He had a crsis of faith and left the Catholic Church. A few years later he married. Then in the 1950's he met Metropolitan Hilarion of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada. Metropolitan Hilarion Chrismated him & his wife, re-married him in the Orthodox Church, and then ordained him an orthodox priest after some further education. Metropolitan Hilarion did not accept the man's prior ordination in the Catholic Church to be valid for the Orthodox Church. Metropolitan Hilarion Ohienko even today is considered to be a great scholar and is highly respected. The end of the story is that the man, now a priest was a greatly loved pastor. Without his ordination, his many decades of ministry & service to the church would have been lost. And he spoke excellent English without hardly a trace of an accent due to his American birth, so he was great in all contacts with the non-Ukrainian community. Also highly intelligent and knoweldgable because of his doctoral studies. What a tremendous loss it would have been to the church if he had not been ordained. |
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Robb
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2009, 03:22:06 AM » |
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mike:
Is there still an Armenian rite Catholic community in Poland? I remember reading that they used to have a Cathedral in Lvov back in the days when it was Lwow, but have not heard what became of them after World War II?
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2009, 03:54:34 AM » |
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The answer is Yes! I can provide a first hand anecdote. A Catholic priest left the Catholic priesthood and married. After the couple had fathered three boys they approached us to become Orthodox. They had an interview with the Serbian bishop. He directed me to baptize them all. He said that if the ex-Catholic priest were able to gather together a small congregation he would ordain him as an Orthodox priest to serve them.
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« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 03:57:37 AM by Irish Hermit »
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2009, 04:53:15 AM » |
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As far as I know all local Churches consider Catholic sacraments valid (eg. Catholic Priests are converted to EO Church by confession and Eucharist and they become Orthodox Priests) so such a situation won't take place. Dear Mike, please see this message about the reception of a group of French Trappist monks by the Ecumenical Patriarchate http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14020.msg197731.html#msg197731 |
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« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 04:53:55 AM by Irish Hermit »
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Basil 320
Site Supporter
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Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,982
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« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2009, 06:11:36 AM » |
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Bishops make decisions based on circumstances, too. We have a parish priest in our area who had left the RC Byzantine Rite as a priest and got married. He was accepted into the Ukrainian jurisdiction that was under the Ecumenical Patriarchate before the recognition of the Ukrainian majority jurisdictions in diaspora. I would guess that Bishop Vsevelod (sp) was the bishop who made the decision. I do not know what the circumstances of his conversion or his Orthodox ordination were. This priest remains happily married and is active in national Ukrainian Church affairs.
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"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
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mike
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2009, 06:16:39 PM » |
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mike:
Is there still an Armenian rite Catholic community in Poland? I remember reading that they used to have a Cathedral in Lvov back in the days when it was Lwow, but have not heard what became of them after World War II?
Yes, there are three Parishes left. |
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Shlomlokh
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« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2009, 09:33:49 PM » |
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I, like others, would not be too thrilled about having an ex-Catholic priest who got married and then applied for ordination in the Holy Orthodox Church. It would make me suspicious of his sincerity of the Orthodox faith. This is not to say it should not be done, but if it is, it should be extremely rare.
In Christ,
Andrew
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"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
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Gorazd
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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2010, 01:09:28 PM » |
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On the other hand we have very bad relations with Ukrainian Catholics and Neouniates.
What exactly do you mean by "Neouniates", please? |
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mike
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2010, 02:17:19 PM » |
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Self-used name of the Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite in Poland (now consisting of one Parish).
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ag_vn
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2011, 09:01:32 AM » |
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Self-used name of the Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite in Poland (now consisting of one Parish).
Is this Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite connected with the Resurrectionists in Krakow? I'm asking because there are Polish Resurrectionists in Bulgaria who serve in a few Byzantine Catholic parishes as well as one Roman rite parish in Bulgaria and I was told by two friends of mine (one of them is Polish) that they have built a Byzantine Catholic church or chapel (I'm not sure) in Krakow, which follows the Bulgarian Byzantine-Slavonic tradition, unlike all other Byzantine rite Catholic churches in Poland, which are Ukrainian. |
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mike
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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2011, 09:41:06 AM » |
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No, it isn't. These Monks in Kraków built a Byzantine chapel a year ago and I suppose they aren't officially connected to the any Eastern Catholic Church. IMO they are Latins who are allowed to serve in Byzantine Bulgarian rite.
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ag_vn
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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2011, 10:17:11 AM » |
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I see, thanks From what I have been told, the Resurrectionists are really Latins who are allowed to serve in the Byzantine rite in Bulgaria and this chapel is purposed mainly for training seminarians, and also that it was consecrated by Bishop Christo Proykov who is the head of the Bulgarian Byzantine Catholics. I was confused about this 'Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite in Poland', because Bulgarian Byzantine Catholics sometimes also call themselves Catholics of the Byzantine-Slavonic Rite, that's why I decided to ask you. As for this Neouniate Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite in Poland, do you know part of which Eastern Catholic Church it is? |
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:22:07 AM by ag_vn »
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mike
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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2011, 10:48:40 AM » |
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As for this Neouniate Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite in Poland, do you know part of which Eastern Catholic Church it is?
Byzantine-Slavonic Catholic Church in Poland Who we are.
Welcome dear web pilgrim and web tourist! You are just visiting a website of the only Greek Catholic Byzantine rite parish in Poland and at the same time the Sanctuary of Uniate Podlasie Martyrs. We realize that the name seems to sound mysteriously and exotically. However the truth about us is much simpler.
Who are we?
We resemble Orthodox Christians with respect to the organization, liturgy, language and chant. But we are not them. WE ARE CATHOLICS!!! Our ancestors were Orthodox. However in 1596 as a result of the Brześć Union in Brześć on the Bug river, the Orthodox along with the Roman Catholics, decided to rebulid the lost unity of the Church. Both we and the Roman Catholics regard the Pope as the head of the Universal Church.
Why are we unique?
There are a lot of Greek Catholic communities and churches in the world. Our uniqueness lies in the fact that being the only parish in Poland we celebrate the liturgy just as the Orthodox do. The other Greek Catholic communities such as the Byzantine – Ukrainian Church in Poland introduced their own liturgical modifications.
Are there many of us?
We are a small community which numbers only 120 people, but we are spiritually strong. sourcehttp://unici.pl/content/view/74.html |
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ag_vn
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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2011, 11:05:58 AM » |
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Thanks a lot, Michał.
It's the first time I hear/read about them.
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mike
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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2011, 11:16:22 AM » |
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There are about 120 of them in one Parish so I'm not surprised.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2011, 11:46:32 AM » |
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Who we are.
Who are we?
We resemble Orthodox Christians with respect to the organization, liturgy, language and chant. But we are not them. WE ARE CATHOLICS!!! LOL. Oxymoron. Our uniqueness lies in the fact that being the only parish in Poland we celebrate the liturgy just as the Orthodox do. There are lots of Orthodox parishes in Poland who celebrate the liturgy just as the Orthodox do. |
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 11:49:27 AM by ialmisry »
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2011, 11:51:13 AM » |
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Self-used name of the Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite in Poland (now consisting of one Parish).
Are there not still fairly large numbers of Greek Catholics remaining near the Slovak border who are of Galician background? |
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ialmisry
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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2011, 11:58:20 AM » |
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Self-used name of the Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite in Poland (now consisting of one Parish).
Are there not still fairly large numbers of Greek Catholics remaining near the Slovak border who are of Galician background? Those are probably he ones that one parish is looking down on The other Greek Catholic communities such as the Byzantine – Ukrainian Church in Poland introduced their own liturgical modifications.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2011, 01:13:15 PM » |
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Self-used name of the Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite in Poland (now consisting of one Parish).
Are there not still fairly large numbers of Greek Catholics remaining near the Slovak border who are of Galician background? Those are probably he ones that one parish is looking down on The other Greek Catholic communities such as the Byzantine – Ukrainian Church in Poland introduced their own liturgical modifications.
Aha! I understand now. Thanks. |
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Deacon Lance
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2011, 09:34:41 PM » |
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I see, thanks From what I have been told, the Resurrectionists are really Latins who are allowed to serve in the Byzantine rite in Bulgaria and this chapel is purposed mainly for training seminarians, and also that it was consecrated by Bishop Christo Proykov who is the head of the Bulgarian Byzantine Catholics. I was confused about this 'Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite in Poland', because Bulgarian Byzantine Catholics sometimes also call themselves Catholics of the Byzantine-Slavonic Rite, that's why I decided to ask you. As for this Neouniate Catholic Church of Byzantine-Slavonic Rite in Poland, do you know part of which Eastern Catholic Church it is? This parish belongs to the Belarusan Greek Catholic Church, which does not have a hierach at the moment only an apostolic visitator. The Archbishop of Warsaw is their hierarch. As children of the Union of Brest the Ruthenian Recension of the Byzantine Rite is their heritage along with the Ukrainians, Rusyns, Slovaks, Hungarians, and Croats and it is older than the Nikonian Recension they have now adopted. The designation Byzantine-Slavonic is also found in the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh especially in towns that had Byzantine-Hungarian parishes as well. |
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My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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