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Author Topic: convicted felon, +Demetri Khouri has returned to the United States  (Read 21325 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2009, 09:29:22 PM »

I'm confused.  Based on the title of this thread, where has Bishop DEMETRI returned from?  Where has he been all this time?  And has he returned specifically to take up a position as an Antiochian auxiliary bishop within the archdiocese?
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« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2009, 11:13:02 PM »

So when does a "convicted felon" become just an ordinary sinner like the rest of us? The man was drunk, he groped a woman, he was convicted and he paid the penalty. Or has he not paid a "high enough" price for some? You know... I blush to think what others might think of me if my indiscretions and my sins were made public. And I'm just bold enough to suggest that the same could be said for each and every poster on this forum. Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?

Sure.  Let him be in peace.  DON'T let him preside over a diocese.
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« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2009, 11:33:19 PM »

I'm confused.  Based on the title of this thread, where has Bishop DEMETRI returned from?  Where has he been all this time?  And has he returned specifically to take up a position as an Antiochian auxiliary bishop within the archdiocese?

It seems he was in Mexico December 2008. Perhaps someone who can translate the Spanish can give us a clue.

http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/

Visita de su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury / 3-6 de diciembre de 2008

Año 2008


Archivo de Fotos
En la primera semana de diciembre, su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury estuvo en la ciudad de México visitando a Su Eminencia Sayedna Antonio, Arzobispo de Nuestra Arquidiócesis. También visitó al monasterio de San Antonio el Grande donde fue recibido por la Hermandad del Monasterio; su Exelencia compartió con los padres sus consejos y experiencias.

Cabe mencionar que, a partir de enero, Sayedna Demetri iniciará su misión episcopal como Obispo Auxiliar en nuestra Arquidiócesis; le deseamos todo éxito y nos encomendamos a sus oraciones.

 
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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2009, 12:01:09 AM »

Rough translation:

In the first week of December, His Excellency Bishop Demetri Khoury was in Mexico City visiting His Eminence Antonio, Archbishop of our Archdiocese.  Additionally, he visited the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great where he was received by the Brotherhood of the Monastery; His Excellency shared with the fathers his thoughts and experiences (I'm a little uncertain as to the last part; I can't recall what "compartio" and "consejos" are off the top of my head).

It should be mentioned that, in January, Bishop Demetri will initiate his episcopal mission as Auxiliary Bishop in our Archdiocese; (I had to resort to babelfish for the last part, as it was beyond my vocab, and as usual, babelfish translates a little too literally)
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« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2009, 01:22:13 AM »

I am sorry..I cannot use the "quote " feature ..too much college....

I certainly agree that Sexual Offenders and especially REGISTERED Sexual Offenders should not be placed in positions of authority but what if Metropolitan Phillip tries something ?
He appears to be relatively arrogant and not a good listener.
Has Bishop Antoun said something about this.This is in his Diocese..Oops wait! He is an Auxillary Bishop now.he also lives in Englewood,NJ even though he is the Auxillary Bishop of Miami.
Stephen

Really?  I understood just the opposite, that the Metropolitan was spending most of his time in Florida.
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« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2009, 09:07:55 AM »

Who moderates Christian News?

To answer your question, the Fora that have no named moderators (these would be the ones grouped together as "General Forums" like Christian News, Board News, or the Prayer Forum) are generally moderated by the entire moderation team, but are the primary responsibility of the Global Moderators (myself and Ozgeorge).
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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2009, 12:32:17 PM »

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

According to the Canons of the Orthodox Church, you cannot be punished twice for the same offence..... but look who I'm trying to talk to about the Orthodox Church.

Is it really necessary  to imply that Tamara is a "gossip-monger" and to put her down as somehow ignorant of the canons?
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2009, 12:37:57 PM »

. . . and then bring back a bishop that was lai[c]ized for sexual indiscretion . . .

Bishop Demetri was not deposed, but only suspended. It seems, further, that his suspension has been lifted.

As I recall, no canonical court was ever convened to try his case; perhaps it was feared by some that this would inevitably lead to his deposition, which would have been much more difficult to undo than a simple suspension.

So, if no canonical court was ever convened, who/what suspended him? Furthermore, if a canonical court did not address this case, can it be claimed that Bishop Demetri was "punished" or "convicted" and does cannot be deposed in the future?
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2009, 12:49:58 PM »

 Offenders may be placed on the sex offender list for periods of time, 5 years, 10 years... and some are put on the list for life.  So say someone is on the sex offender list for 5 years.  After his/her five years he/she is simply taken off the list and does not have to report his/her home address and work address and so forth and is no longer bound by the rules and restrictions of being on that list.


I'm merely passing along information about a USA law not speculating on this issue at all. 
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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2009, 01:02:14 PM »

In his inebriated condition, he groped a woman... period. He is not a child molester. He is not a rapist. To our knowledge, this was a one-time offense. But what I see here is a willingness to not forgive.. a willingness (almost glee?) to drag his name in the mud publicly. It seems to me that the woman caught in adultery (a much more serious sin than groping) was not condemned by our Lord. In fact He simply asked those who were without sin to cast the first stone. But here we evidently have many who are quite willing to cast stones (but under the guise of caring for the Church). I wonder if the original accusers of this adulterous woman were "caring for the synagogue and the community"? We ought not to be making these things public. If we really cared we would be praying for Bp Demetri and asking the Lord to forgive our miserable souls (because our souls [mine especially]) are miserable with self-righteous indignation, hypocrisy and an unforgiving spirit. Lord, have mercy. Sad
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« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2009, 01:06:09 PM »

In his inebriated condition, he groped a woman... period. He is not a child molester. He is not a rapist. To our knowledge, this was a one-time offense. But what I see here is a willingness to not forgive.. a willingness (almost glee?) to drag his name in the mud publicly. It seems to me that the woman caught in adultery (a much more serious sin than groping) was not condemned by our Lord. In fact He simply asked those who were without sin to cast the first stone. But here we evidently have many who are quite willing to cast stones (but under the guise of caring for the Church). I wonder if the original accusers of this adulterous woman were "caring for the synagogue and the community"? We ought not to be making these things public. If we really cared we would be praying for Bp Demetri and asking the Lord to forgive our miserable souls (because our souls [mine especially]) are miserable with self-righteous indignation, hypocrisy and an unforgiving spirit. Lord, have mercy. Sad


Your view sounds much like what the Roman Catholic dioceses did, cover up scandal and sweep it under the rug. 
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« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2009, 01:09:16 PM »

If the guy gets put in some office of responsibility, or they try, then raise a fuss.  Otherwise posting his mug shot is just kicking his you-know-what in the dirt.
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« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2009, 01:15:37 PM »




Your view sounds much like what the Roman Catholic dioceses did, cover up scandal and sweep it under the rug. 



Not at all. I applaud Met Philip for dealing the the situation in the manner in which he did by removing Bp Demetri from his episcopal responsibilities. I also applaud him for taking a loving and healing approach to this man by not casting him away. The RC method of denial and sweeping things under the rug is not comparable.
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« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2009, 01:16:50 PM »

If the guy gets put in some office of responsibility, or they try, then raise a fuss.  Otherwise posting his mug shot is just kicking his you-know-what in the dirt.

Exactly.
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« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2009, 01:34:06 PM »




Your view sounds much like what the Roman Catholic dioceses did, cover up scandal and sweep it under the rug. 



Not at all. I applaud Met Philip for dealing the the situation in the manner in which he did by removing Bp Demetri from his episcopal responsibilities. I also applaud him for taking a loving and healing approach to this man by not casting him away. The RC method of denial and sweeping things under the rug is not comparable.

Didn't mention Met Phillip, I mentioned your approach in your post. 
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« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2009, 01:40:40 PM »

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

According to the Canons of the Orthodox Church, you cannot be punished twice for the same offence..... but look who I'm trying to talk to about the Orthodox Church.

Is it really necessary  to imply that Tamara is a "gossip-monger" and to put her down as somehow ignorant of the canons?

Don't worry. He can call me whatever he wants. I will keep posting information in this thread on this subject as it becomes available. But even moderators are expected to show respect and civility when posting replies. We all have to follow the same rules set up in the guidelines of this forum.
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« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2009, 01:58:05 PM »

. . . and then bring back a bishop that was lai[c]ized for sexual indiscretion . . .

Bishop Demetri was not deposed, but only suspended. It seems, further, that his suspension has been lifted.

As I recall, no canonical court was ever convened to try his case; perhaps it was feared by some that this would inevitably lead to his deposition, which would have been much more difficult to undo than a simple suspension.

So, if no canonical court was ever convened, who/what suspended him? Furthermore, if a canonical court did not address this case, can it be claimed that Bishop Demetri was "punished" or "convicted" and does cannot be deposed in the future?

OOPS. I need to correct my post. It should read: "So, if no canonical court was ever convened, who/what suspended him? Furthermore, if a canonical court did not address this case, can it be claimed that Bishop Demetri was "punished" or "convicted" and does that mean that he cannot be deposed in the future?"
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« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2009, 02:03:49 PM »

In his inebriated condition, he groped a woman... period. He is not a child molester. He is not a rapist. To our knowledge, this was a one-time offense. But what I see here is a willingness to not forgive.. a willingness (almost glee?) to drag his name in the mud publicly. It seems to me that the woman caught in adultery (a much more serious sin than groping) was not condemned by our Lord. In fact He simply asked those who were without sin to cast the first stone. But here we evidently have many who are quite willing to cast stones (but under the guise of caring for the Church). I wonder if the original accusers of this adulterous woman were "caring for the synagogue and the community"? We ought not to be making these things public. If we really cared we would be praying for Bp Demetri and asking the Lord to forgive our miserable souls (because our souls [mine especially]) are miserable with self-righteous indignation, hypocrisy and an unforgiving spirit. Lord, have mercy. Sad

The  Bishop is suppose to be A Ikona of God the Father..He should  either be counted amongs the lay, or sent to a monastery as a monk the rest of his life, to contemplate the errors of his way.Theres No excuse for him in what he did...
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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2009, 02:17:14 PM »

Offenders may be placed on the sex offender list for periods of time, 5 years, 10 years... and some are put on the list for life.  So say someone is on the sex offender list for 5 years.  After his/her five years he/she is simply taken off the list and does not have to report his/her home address and work address and so forth and is no longer bound by the rules and restrictions of being on that list.


I'm merely passing along information about a USA law not speculating on this issue at all. 

That isn;t how it works here in Florida
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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2009, 02:41:48 PM »

In his inebriated condition, he groped a woman... period. He is not a child molester. He is not a rapist. To our knowledge, this was a one-time offense. But what I see here is a willingness to not forgive.. a willingness (almost glee?) to drag his name in the mud publicly. It seems to me that the woman caught in adultery (a much more serious sin than groping) was not condemned by our Lord. In fact He simply asked those who were without sin to cast the first stone. But here we evidently have many who are quite willing to cast stones (but under the guise of caring for the Church). I wonder if the original accusers of this adulterous woman were "caring for the synagogue and the community"? We ought not to be making these things public. If we really cared we would be praying for Bp Demetri and asking the Lord to forgive our miserable souls (because our souls [mine especially]) are miserable with self-righteous indignation, hypocrisy and an unforgiving spirit. Lord, have mercy. Sad

As someone on this thread pointed out, this isn't an issue of focusing on our own sin & not judging others. Clergy are held to a higher standard than the laity and must be held publicly accountable for severe moral failings. What he did was severely immoral & he is no longer fit to serve in a clerical role. Can you imagine women who have experienced sexual harassment being under the spiritial authority of such a man?

I hope he repents and heals, but to allow or approve of this man functioning in a place of authority under the attitude that "we shouldn't judge because we are all sinners, etc.." is at best being an enabler (like those in a co dependent relationship).

It would be insane for Metropolitain PHILIP to appoint this man as any type of auxillary bishop. He would have to be completely out of touch if he thinks the faithful would tolerate such a thing.
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« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2009, 03:22:41 PM »

I cannot believe I'm about to reply to this "discussion", but I guess I will.....

 first, I'm shocked by the way Orthodox Christians are treating each other in this thread...secondly, I'm even, and this the disturbing part, more shocked that some people feel like what this Bishop did wasn't really "that bad" in comparison to what "those Roman Catholics did".....now granted no one has right out stated it in these exact words, but the writing is on the wall in many of these posts.

 Yes, we are to forgive, and help each other in their weaknesses, and yes we're all equal in the eyes of God, all are sinners, all can be forgiven, and God's mercy is withheld from no one....however we're not talking about personal judgment here, we're talking about administrative judgment, and even though I'm used to a lot of this sort of politics in Orthodoxy, I must say, I'm scandalized by all of this. The idea that this man could even by considered to once again become a Bishop with authority of a diocese is outrageous. It's not a judgment on his personal character, on the man himself; anymore than it's a judgment on the character of Pope Benedict the 16th, when Orthodox say they believe he's incorrect on some doctrinal issue...we just disagree with him. If Some Christians, Orthodox, Catholic or otherwise cannot separate the office from the man, then that's their problem. (and obviously many cannot) I've seen no one say "this man is going to hell", or "he's evil" or any of the medieval terms that were thrown around in times past (Church history past)....but just because we forgive the man, and bring him back into the fold, doesn't mean we then put him right back into a position of authority. By doing so, we'd be partly responsible for any future sins he committed IMO.

Maybe this was a "one time" event, the groping incident that is...and yet, groping a woman is not exactly the same sort of "one time" event like getting a speeding ticket on an empty country road....or shop lifting a candy bar....it's not just an abstract minor crime, it's a violation of another human being, another icon of Christ. Alcohol often brings out things inside a person they'd rather not confront, but they come from within, and not without. (IMO, I'm no dr. phil)....so something else is going on here.

He's admitted he has a drinking problem, and that is NOT a one time incident. Now it may very well be he's got all this nipped in the bud...that Christ has healed him, and that he is now a saint.....if that is the case he'll likely refuse any positions offered to him because in God's wisdom saints probably realize when something is just "too soon"....

In the end, this man, while we should are commanded to forgive him, doesn't mean there aren't conseuqences. Let him teach, let do any number of things to serve the Church, but a Bishop he should not be.









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« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2009, 04:48:11 PM »

If the guy gets put in some office of responsibility, or they try, then raise a fuss.  Otherwise posting his mug shot is just kicking his you-know-what in the dirt.

He was never deposed from his office as a bishop. And he is in a position of responsibility according to the website in Mexico. He is one of their auxiliaries.

http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/

Visita de su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury / 3-6 de diciembre de 2008

Año 2008


Archivo de Fotos
En la primera semana de diciembre, su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury estuvo en la ciudad de México visitando a Su Eminencia Sayedna Antonio, Arzobispo de Nuestra Arquidiócesis. También visitó al monasterio de San Antonio el Grande donde fue recibido por la Hermandad del Monasterio; su Exelencia compartió con los padres sus consejos y experiencias.

Cabe mencionar que, a partir de enero, Sayedna Demetri iniciará su misión episcopal como Obispo Auxiliar en nuestra Arquidiócesis; le deseamos todo éxito y nos encomendamos a sus oraciones.


Rough translation (from Veniamin):

In the first week of December, His Excellency Bishop Demetri Khoury was in Mexico City visiting His Eminence Antonio, Archbishop of our Archdiocese.  Additionally, he visited the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great where he was received by the Brotherhood of the Monastery; His Excellency shared with the fathers his thoughts and experiences (I'm a little uncertain as to the last part; I can't recall what "compartio" and "consejos" are off the top of my head).

It should be mentioned that, in January, Bishop Demetri will initiate his episcopal mission as Auxiliary Bishop in our Archdiocese;
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« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2009, 05:07:02 PM »

If the guy gets put in some office of responsibility, or they try, then raise a fuss.  Otherwise posting his mug shot is just kicking his you-know-what in the dirt.

He was never deposed from his office as a bishop. And he is in a position of responsibility according to the website in Mexico. He is one of their auxiliaries.

http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/

Visita de su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury / 3-6 de diciembre de 2008

Año 2008


Archivo de Fotos
En la primera semana de diciembre, su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury estuvo en la ciudad de México visitando a Su Eminencia Sayedna Antonio, Arzobispo de Nuestra Arquidiócesis. También visitó al monasterio de San Antonio el Grande donde fue recibido por la Hermandad del Monasterio; su Exelencia compartió con los padres sus consejos y experiencias.

Cabe mencionar que, a partir de enero, Sayedna Demetri iniciará su misión episcopal como Obispo Auxiliar en nuestra Arquidiócesis; le deseamos todo éxito y nos encomendamos a sus oraciones.


Rough translation (from Veniamin):

In the first week of December, His Excellency Bishop Demetri Khoury was in Mexico City visiting His Eminence Antonio, Archbishop of our Archdiocese.  Additionally, he visited the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great where he was received by the Brotherhood of the Monastery; His Excellency shared with the fathers his thoughts and experiences (I'm a little uncertain as to the last part; I can't recall what "compartio" and "consejos" are off the top of my head).

It should be mentioned that, in January, Bishop Demetri will initiate his episcopal mission as Auxiliary Bishop in our Archdiocese;


Disclaimer for anyone reading my translation.  I am only somewhat proficient in Spanish and make absolutely no guarantees that I have translated the article accurately.  My translation above should not be taken as proof of anything.
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« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2009, 05:13:33 PM »

And I agree, convicted sex offenders cannot be placed in positions of authority.
Are you then saying that Bishop Demetri should NEVER be restored to his position of authority, not even if he shows abundantly the fruit of repentance, healing, and sanctity some time in the future?
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« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2009, 05:29:58 PM »

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

According to the Canons of the Orthodox Church, you cannot be punished twice for the same offence..... but look who I'm trying to talk to about the Orthodox Church.

Is it really necessary  to imply that Tamara is a "gossip-monger" and to put her down as somehow ignorant of the canons?
Have you taken the chance to peruse through her posting history here?  You might gain a much broader perspective than you've been able to see thus far in the less than two months you've been active here (assuming you've not been lurking here for a long time before that).

If all she was doing in this thread was merely announcing the news that Bishop Demetri had returned to the U.S. and that she opposes his being reinstated to the episcopacy, then maybe that in itself might not be worthy of being called gossip.  But let us look at some of the other things Tamara has said on this thread.


And +demetri is favored by the priests in Detroit.

And there are some very powerful priests in the archdiocese who want to make it happen.

What do the above two statements have to do with a rational discussion of whether Bishop Demetri should be restored to his episcopal see or not?  They read more like speculative statements of gossip spoken to elicit an indignant response from us than like anything of real substance.  If she can substantiate the statements with outside corroboration, then maybe they will appear more credible.  As they stand now, however, those assertions look more like attempts to undermine the idea that Bishop Demetri should be reinstated by making arguments in his favor look like a part of some vast conspiracy of the rich and powerful.


Yes, no spiritual court was convened because he would have been deposed.

How does Tamara know this?  If she can't substantiate this--and I don't know how anyone can substantiate something that never happened--then how is this not gossip?
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« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2009, 06:09:12 PM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
Our diocesan bishops have been reduced to auxiliaries.

http://www.ocanews.org/news/PrescientEmail3.18.09.html

Text of the 2007 Email

"From: Abdallah Khouri
Date: September 28, 2007
Subject: Betrayed by Philip Saliba

My brothers in Christ!

Our Archdiocese is a gift of God to this land, and it shine a light in the darkness to bring Orthodoxy to the nation. We have made struggles and sacrificings to glorify God.

Now we hear that our Metropolitan Phillip is betraying us.

How is this? Have you not heard?

Yes, he is asking bishops of the holy synod of Antioch to renounce our Self Rule and return us to the 'old constitution'. He also paid these bishops to ask the synod to depose our diocese's bishops and take the ministries from them.

Did we not go to Pittsburgh to elect our bishops and draw maps of dioceses? Did Metropolitan Phillip not insist such things? Yet he betrays us through others, too weak to make the journey himself, and too weak to look us in the eye. He takes the tithes we give to him and makes bribe as one generous to the poor.

You say I am a liar? I do not tell the truth? Then I will show show you how he betrays you. Where has bishop Demetri been this time? You have undoubtedly heard he is in Mexico to learn Spanish. Philip betrays us again when all the bishops say no to demetri, with one voice against a sexual offender. But Philip makes the synod take Demetri and make him a biship far away to Chile, so he can come back like the boomerrang.

If you say that I am not telling truth, then ask Philip yourself. He will not deny his support so his Palestinians keep the peace. Demetri's men attack bishop Mark like rabid dogs. The man they vote for in Pittsburgh.

See how the traitors find each other!

Forgive me brothers to make your hearts heavy, but now your voice must go all the way to Damascus.

If they fall, I ask you brothers to take the holy antimens, without the relics and put in a clean envelope and mail to the Saidna Hazim* himself;

Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East
P.O. Box 9
Damascus
Syria

Let them know that betrayed by Philip is unacceptable."

"Saidna Hazim" refers to the current Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatius (Hazim). It is not known if any priests returned their antimensia. And reports indicate that "Abdallah Khouri" recently struck again with an recent email to all the Bishops and select clergy. The message? "I told you so."
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« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2009, 09:04:28 PM »

Maybe this was a "one time" event, the groping incident that is...and yet, groping a woman is not exactly the same sort of "one time" event like getting a speeding ticket on an empty country road....or shop lifting a candy bar....it's not just an abstract minor crime, it's a violation of another human being, another icon of Christ. Alcohol often brings out things inside a person they'd rather not confront, but they come from within, and not without. (IMO, I'm no dr. phil)....so something else is going on here.

He's admitted he has a drinking problem, and that is NOT a one time incident. Now it may very well be he's got all this nipped in the bud...that Christ has healed him, and that he is now a saint.....if that is the case he'll likely refuse any positions offered to him because in God's wisdom saints probably realize when something is just "too soon"....

In the end, this man, while we should are commanded to forgive him, doesn't mean there aren't conseuqences. Let him teach, let do any number of things to serve the Church, but a Bishop he should not be.


There were consequences and they have been administered. I will also say this: with the same measure that you now feel free to judge Bp Demetri, you will also be judged. It's not my idea of justice but rather the Lord's. It seems to me that we need to be very circumspect in how we express our righteous indignation. He is a bishop... yes... but he is also a man and a sinner like every other man... including hierarchs of the Church.
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« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2009, 09:19:41 PM »

Maybe this was a "one time" event, the groping incident that is...and yet, groping a woman is not exactly the same sort of "one time" event like getting a speeding ticket on an empty country road....or shop lifting a candy bar....it's not just an abstract minor crime, it's a violation of another human being, another icon of Christ. Alcohol often brings out things inside a person they'd rather not confront, but they come from within, and not without. (IMO, I'm no dr. phil)....so something else is going on here.

He's admitted he has a drinking problem, and that is NOT a one time incident. Now it may very well be he's got all this nipped in the bud...that Christ has healed him, and that he is now a saint.....if that is the case he'll likely refuse any positions offered to him because in God's wisdom saints probably realize when something is just "too soon"....

In the end, this man, while we should are commanded to forgive him, doesn't mean there aren't conseuqences. Let him teach, let do any number of things to serve the Church, but a Bishop he should not be.


There were consequences and they have been administered. I will also say this: with the same measure that you now feel free to judge Bp Demetri, you will also be judged. It's not my idea of justice but rather the Lord's. It seems to me that we need to be very circumspect in how we express our righteous indignation. He is a bishop... yes... but he is also a man and a sinner like every other man... including hierarchs of the Church.

You need to read my previous post

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21172.msg319136.html#msg319136
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« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2009, 10:17:08 PM »

Disclaimer for anyone reading my translation.  I am only somewhat proficient in Spanish and make absolutely no guarantees that I have translated the article accurately.  My translation above should not be taken as proof of anything.

Veniamin> Your translation was very good on the whole. I reproduce it below, with a couple of negligible corrections, and adding the last line:

"During the first week of December, His Excellency, Bishop Demetri Khoury was in Mexico City visiting His Eminence Antonio, Archbishop of our Archdiocese.  Additionally, he visited the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great where he was received by the Brotherhood of the Monastery; His Excellency shared with the fathers his counsel and experiences.

It should be mentioned that, starting in January, Sayedna Demetri will begin his episcopal mission as Auxiliary Bishop in our Archdiocese. We wish him every success and entrust ourselves to his prayers."

So, if no canonical court was ever convened, who/what suspended him? Furthermore, if a canonical court did not address this case, can it be claimed that Bishop Demetri was "punished" or "convicted" and does that mean that he cannot be deposed in the future?

Bishops suspend Priests and Deacons, and Synods suspend Bishops. Whether the Antiochian Synod formally suspended Bishop Demetri I do not know, but in any case, he did not serve while his suspension lasted.

He was not, in fact, canonically punished for this offense, as the punishment would have been deposition. It is quite right that the Canons forbid that someone be punished twice for the same offense; this means, in Bishop Demetri's case, that he could not have been both deposed and excommunicated (i.e., barred from the Mysteries for a period of time) for this single offense.
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« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2009, 10:42:00 PM »

I don't understand why the holy synod did not depose + Demetri?
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« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2009, 11:37:28 PM »

It is quite right that the Canons forbid that someone be punished twice for the same offense;

His Synod of Bishops seems to have punished him twice...

1.  A period of excommunication
2.  A period of exile.
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« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2009, 11:58:52 PM »

It is quite right that the Canons forbid that someone be punished twice for the same offense;

His Synod of Bishops seems to have punished him twice...

1.  A period of excommunication
2.  A period of exile.

But there couldn't have been a spiritual court because the synod was not a true synod at the time. They were auxiliaries.
We didn't have diocesan bishops or dioceses. Metropolitan Philip would not have been allowed to have spiritual court of one (himself).
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« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2009, 12:04:45 AM »

It is quite right that the Canons forbid that someone be punished twice for the same offense;

His Synod of Bishops seems to have punished him twice...

1.  A period of excommunication
2.  A period of exile.

But there couldn't have been a spiritual court because the synod was not a true synod at the time. They were auxiliaries.
We didn't have diocesan bishops or dioceses. Metropolitan Philip would not have been allowed to have spiritual court of one (himself).

Of course not, the decision was made by the Synod in Damascus, whose decisions are not open to public scrutiny.

When a defendant is sentenced to probation in a criminal court, he/she has to follow a certain set of conditions.  If the Patriarchal Synod in Damascus ordered Bishop Demetri to separate Himself from Communion followed by exile, both conditions represent one punishment for the same transgression.
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« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2009, 12:23:49 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.
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« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2009, 12:50:09 AM »

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.
IOW, Tamara, I think you're using the Bishop Demetri case as yet another piece of evidence to prove that Metropolitan Philip is too hungry for power to be fit to serve as your Metropolitan.
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« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2009, 01:44:40 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.

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« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2009, 01:46:17 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin
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« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2009, 01:49:03 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin


You have no way of knowing what I think so just stop the harrassment right now.
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« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2009, 01:59:42 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin


You have no way of knowing what I think so just stop the harrassment right now.
Well, why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

You're posting on an internet discussion forum.  Everything anyone, including you, posts here will be subject to scrutiny the moment it appears in public.  Do you somehow think your assertions are beyond this scrutiny?
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« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2009, 02:08:52 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin


You have no way of knowing what I think so just stop the harrassment right now.
Well, why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

You're posting on an internet discussion forum.  Everything anyone, including you, posts here will be subject to scrutiny the moment it appears in public.  Do you somehow think your assertions are beyond this scrutiny?

Scrutiny is one thing. Stepping over someone's personal boundaries is quite another.  I don't let anyone tell me they can read my mind off line and I am not going to allow anyone here to do it.

I am finished talking to you.
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« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2009, 02:12:00 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin


You have no way of knowing what I think so just stop the harrassment right now.
Well, why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

You're posting on an internet discussion forum.  Everything anyone, including you, posts here will be subject to scrutiny the moment it appears in public.  Do you somehow think your assertions are beyond this scrutiny?

Scrutiny is one thing. Stepping over someone's personal boundaries is quite another.  I don't let anyone tell me they can read my mind off line and I am not going to allow anyone here to do it.

I am finished talking to you.
But I never said I could read your mind.  I only pointed out what you had already made obvious.
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« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2009, 02:34:39 AM »

I don't understand why the holy synod did not depose + Demetri?

He retired.  It is refered to in the timeline:
http://www.orthodoxattorneys.org/docs/TimelineFinal.pdf
and he was listed as retired on the official website:
http://www.orthodoxattorneys.org/docs/exh/Ex_24_-_Bishop_DEMETRI.pdf

Someone who was involved told me that assurances were given at the time that +Demetri would not be taken out of retirement.  He focused on the assurances given by the Metropolitan, so I don't know if he can corroborate that the bishops all signed off on the agreement.  I'll ask.

The official word was that the "Policies and Procedures" adopted would be followed in this matter.  Have they?
http://www.orthodoxattorneys.org/docs/exh/Ex_22_-_2003_0714_statement%20re_Bp_DEMETRI_fr_Arch.pdf

That's not an idle question: they were adopted by the Board of Trustees, and are used as a sort of legal disclaimer for disconduct by clergy.  If not, when a clergyman commits an act that everyone considers serious (the law isn't considering the seriousness of +Demetri's action in comparison to anything else.  Another court isn't going to either), let's say rape, a court can, and most assuredly, based on the precedence of what is happening to the Vatican's diocese's, will, hold the Archdiocese liable for damages for fostering an hostile environment, blah, blah, blah...

It is quite right that the Canons forbid that someone be punished twice for the same offense;

His Synod of Bishops seems to have punished him twice...

1.  A period of excommunication
2.  A period of exile.

They didn't punish him at all.  He was put on retirement pending the criminal procedings, per the policies.  When he was convicted, he tendered his resignation, which the Synod accepted.  The alleged restrictions put on his serving were the terms of his retirement.

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?

Perhaps his accuracy in making the call?

Quote
  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

I am sure plenty in the Vatican's Boston Archdiocese share the same opinion on the matter.  But maybe they just have something personal against Met. Philip. Roll Eyes

Quote
2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

So Metropolitan Philip wants to become the Orthodox Cardinal Law.  That's enough to grip about.  Just ask the Vatican's Boston Archdiocese.

IOW, Tamara, I think you're using the Bishop Demetri case as yet another piece of evidence to prove that Metropolitan Philip is too hungry for power to be fit to serve as your Metropolitan.

Of course the case of Bishop Demetri being another piece of evidence (see the Timeline) that proves, if true, that Metropolitan Philip is not fit to serve as anyone's Metropolitan is off point. Roll Eyes

I was appalled when Cardinal Law was reassigned to the Vatican.  Did you have any thoughts on the matter?

The courts have.  But then, in the interest of full disclosure, I might mention that a benefactor of our parish, a millionaire, is not even Orthodox, but a communicant with the Vatican.  He gives to us, he says, because he knows "that the money will be put to good use. If I give it to my church, it will go to pay off lawsuits for paedophile priests."  I doubt that he will make that distinction between sodomizing boys and gropping women, and, if the Policy and Procedures weren't followed and the archdiocese is opening itself liable for damages, I guess we stand to lose some support.

Then again, it might not come to that: someone from the parish involved on the Archdiocese level with a financial background (and the father of 5 daughters) back a while made the statement that Fr. Allen left a bad taste in his mouth, and he wasn't going to swallow backsliding on the promises Met. Phillip on the +Demetri matter.  So, like our beloved Bishop (not auxiliary) Mark's letter to the legal team for the Archdiocese, and the fact that criminal and liability law in the U.S. are outside Met. Philip or Damascus fiat, Englewood is going to find itself in a corner on this as well.

It promises to be an interesting convention come July.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin

Fortunatly for Tamara, at times so is Met. Philip:witness the Bright Friday debacle.
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« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2009, 02:38:09 AM »

^ What does the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston have to do with this subject?
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« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2009, 03:00:20 AM »

^ What does the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston have to do with this subject?

Because they are all the same in the eyes of US law, and if you think that a US court is going to apply a different standard to the Archdiocese should, God forbid!, she be named with a clergyman in an abuse case, with a record of ignoring its own guidelines and reinstating a convicted sex offender (the US courts decided how serious it was when it decided Bp Demetri was facing 2 years prison: the courts don't recognize Christian forgiveness and mercy) required to register as such, well, you're welcome to your world of make believe.  The Convention in July will be dealing with the real world. And that aspect, unlike the demoting of diocesan bishops, the US court will NOT take a neutral approach.  The legal trustees are going to have to deal with it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 03:15:33 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
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« Reply #89 on: May 10, 2009, 07:57:31 AM »

^ What does the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston have to do with this subject?
They are the only true Roman Church (apparently).
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 07:58:12 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
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