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Author Topic: convicted felon, +Demetri Khouri has returned to the United States  (Read 20982 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tamara
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« on: May 07, 2009, 09:44:30 PM »

If you go to this site you will see he lives in Miami, FL
There was a warning from the person who wrote under the name of Abdullah Khouri (Servant of God, priest)
that Metropolitan Philip would try to re-instate him as a bishop in the United States.
All the other things Abdullah wrote have come true. God forbid this last prophecy.

http://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/flyer.do?personId=40249
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2009, 10:13:26 PM »

If you go to this site you will see he lives in Miami, FL
There was a warning from the person who wrote under the name of Abdullah Khouri (Servant of God, priest)
that Metropolitan Philip would try to re-instate him as a bishop in the United States.
All the other things Abdullah wrote have come true. God forbid this last prophecy.

http://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/flyer.do?personId=40249

Looking for a tie breaker bishop to sign?  If the Metropolitan thought he had trouble before.....

Of course, this would be the dummest thing, as, as you point out, his wearabouts are monitored.  Anyone can, and I assure you many will, see if he is here or not.
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 11:03:34 PM »

If you go to this site you will see he lives in Miami, FL
There was a warning from the person who wrote under the name of Abdullah Khouri (Servant of God, priest)
that Metropolitan Philip would try to re-instate him as a bishop in the United States.
All the other things Abdullah wrote have come true. God forbid this last prophecy.

http://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/flyer.do?personId=40249

Looking for a tie breaker bishop to sign?  If the Metropolitan thought he had trouble before.....

Of course, this would be the dummest thing, as, as you point out, his wearabouts are monitored.  Anyone can, and I assure you many will, see if he is here or not.

Isa,

I would agree it would be the dumbest thing but demoting our diocesan bishops sure wasn't an act of genius either.
And +demetri is favored by the priests in Detroit.
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2009, 01:20:03 AM »

So when does a "convicted felon" become just an ordinary sinner like the rest of us? The man was drunk, he groped a woman, he was convicted and he paid the penalty. Or has he not paid a "high enough" price for some? You know... I blush to think what others might think of me if my indiscretions and my sins were made public. And I'm just bold enough to suggest that the same could be said for each and every poster on this forum. Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2009, 01:24:23 AM »

Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?
You mean behave like Christians?
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2009, 01:53:35 AM »

So when does a "convicted felon" become just an ordinary sinner like the rest of us? The man was drunk, he groped a woman, he was convicted and he paid the penalty. Or has he not paid a "high enough" price for some? You know... I blush to think what others might think of me if my indiscretions and my sins were made public. And I'm just bold enough to suggest that the same could be said for each and every poster on this forum. Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?

The man needs to be deposed so he can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop within our archdiocese.
And there are some very powerful priests in the archdiocese who want to make it happen.

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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2009, 01:57:33 AM »

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

According to the Canons of the Orthodox Church, you cannot be punished twice for the same offence..... but look who I'm trying to talk to about the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 02:00:01 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2009, 01:59:58 AM »

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

no one has said he should be excommunicated. He just needs to return to lay status so he can heal.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 02:02:37 AM by Tamara » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2009, 02:19:54 AM »

Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?
You mean behave like Christians?

Sadly, Oz, they re behaving like Christians, based on my experience. Tommorow's Friday...Shabbat Shalom everybody!
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2009, 02:27:13 AM »

Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?
You mean behave like Christians?

Sadly, Oz, they re behaving like Christians, based on my experience. Tommorow's Friday...Shabbat Shalom everybody!

 Smiley Good Shabbat!
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2009, 02:43:10 AM »

Nedostoyniy!  How do you say unworthy in Syrian?

He must not serve as a priest or auxillary bishop or the Metropolitan.

Twenty percent of American females have been sexually abused!  (Look up the reference yourself.)  Imagine their pain having a convicted sex felon
serving in church! How about a convicted sex offender being the LEADER of their diocese?

For those men who will now respond,"Oh, but he was drunk", I will pray that God never sends you wives or daughters.  

I challenge the moderator to not lock and delete this topic without  consulting female OCnet readers, his wife, mother, grandmother, matushka and GOD.
 
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2009, 02:53:19 AM »

I challenge the moderator to not lock and delete this topic without  consulting female OCnet readers, his wife, mother, grandmother, matushka and GOD.

You see, this kind of hysterical dramatics is exactly why we don't delete posts. They stand as testimony to the posters.
Perhaps you would like to share with us an example of when we have deleted a topic? I'll give you a hint: never. But then, what does reality and facts have to do with anything? Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 02:59:16 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2009, 09:06:13 AM »

Kick em' while they up, kick em' while they down
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2009, 09:44:32 AM »

So when does a "convicted felon" become just an ordinary sinner like the rest of us? The man was drunk, he groped a woman, he was convicted and he paid the penalty. Or has he not paid a "high enough" price for some? You know... I blush to think what others might think of me if my indiscretions and my sins were made public. And I'm just bold enough to suggest that the same could be said for each and every poster on this forum. Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?

Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?
You mean behave like Christians?

Sadly, Oz, they re behaving like Christians, based on my experience. Tommorow's Friday...Shabbat Shalom everybody!

Give it a rest.  No one took up positions in the judgement seat:


If you go to this site you will see he lives in Miami, FL
There was a warning from the person who wrote under the name of Abdullah Khouri (Servant of God, priest)
that Metropolitan Philip would try to re-instate him as a bishop in the United States.
All the other things Abdullah wrote have come true. God forbid this last prophecy.

http://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/flyer.do?personId=40249

Looking for a tie breaker bishop to sign?  If the Metropolitan thought he had trouble before.....

Of course, this would be the dummest thing, as, as you point out, his wearabouts are monitored.  Anyone can, and I assure you many will, see if he is here or not.

Isa,

I would agree it would be the dumbest thing but demoting our diocesan bishops sure wasn't an act of genius either.
And +demetri is favored by the priests in Detroit.


What was pointed out was the continous mechinations in the Antiochian Archdiocese.  How beholdin' do you think Bp. Demitri would be to the Metropolitan and the powers that be if they brought him back?

So the Metropolitan found out that he needed fresh ink for the rubber stamp synod.  Is Bp. Demitri the refresher? 

That question has nothing to do with the best course for Bp. Demitri's personal salvation/problems/redemption...whatever.  And it requires no judgment of him personally.  Just the intelligence and honesty to state that piling one controversial issue over another, as bringing a convicted bishop back (when it was made quite clear he could not) into the midst of an ongoing canonical crisis, isn't going to solve either issue, but exaserbate both.

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

According to the Canons of the Orthodox Church, you cannot be punished twice for the same offence..... but look who I'm trying to talk to about the Orthodox Church.

someone who isn't cowed?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 09:46:13 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2009, 09:51:07 AM »

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

no one has said he should be excommunicated. He just needs to return to lay status so he can heal.



I totally agree Tamara. It would be absurd to make him a bishop again. This isn't about not judging others and focusing on your own sins. Bishops must be moral men. The Bible even talks about the character men must have to be qualified to be bishops. We cannot have convicted sex offenders as clergy. Imagine the women who have been sexually harassed being in his dioceses...it is unthinkable.

If +PHILIP installs this man as a bishop again, I think you are going to see outrage amongst the laity. This could be the straw that breaks the camels back. 
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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2009, 09:52:53 AM »

That question has nothing to do with the best course for Bp. Demitri's personal salvation/problems/redemption...whatever.  And it requires no judgment of him personally.  Just the intelligence and honesty to state that piling one controversial issue over another, as bringing a convicted bishop back (when it was made quite clear he could not) into the midst of an ongoing canonical crisis, isn't going to solve either issue, but exaserbate both.
I would have to agree. We have already been jerked around with this auxillary fiasco, and then bring back a bishop that was laisized(sp) for sexual indiscretion, just seems like the last thing the Archdiocese needs right now.
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2009, 09:53:42 AM »

If +PHILIP installs this man as a bishop again, I think you are going to see outrage amongst the laity. This could be the straw that breaks the camels back.
I hope you are not right, but I think you are...unfortunately.
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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2009, 11:32:04 AM »

. . . and then bring back a bishop that was lai[c]ized for sexual indiscretion . . .

Bishop Demetri was not deposed, but only suspended. It seems, further, that his suspension has been lifted.

As I recall, no canonical court was ever convened to try his case; perhaps it was feared by some that this would inevitably lead to his deposition, which would have been much more difficult to undo than a simple suspension.
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2009, 12:06:52 PM »

Does anyone check the criminal history of individuals applying for to be moderators on this forum? 
Sign of a spiritually sick moderator:
Altered quote from OZGeorge-
"The woman needs to be excommunicated so she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning gossip-monger within her archdiocese".

Only a very spiritually sick man would believe that women, who are concerned about convicted sexual criminals, should be silenced.

Sex offenders must never be placed in positions of authority.

Lord have mercy on OzGeorge.
 

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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2009, 12:12:50 PM »

Does anyone check the criminal history of individuals applying for to be moderators on this forum? 
Sign of a spiritually sick moderator:
Altered quote from OZGeorge-
"The woman needs to be excommunicated so she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning gossip-monger within her archdiocese".

Only a very spiritually sick man would believe that women, who are concerned about convicted sexual criminals, should be silenced.

Sex offenders must never be placed in positions of authority.

Lord have mercy on OzGeorge.

I entirely agree. 

This really has nothing to do with "judging" the person in question - rather it is not appropriate for someone like that to be in a pastoral role.  The complacency about this by some really betrays quite a bit of misogyny. 
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2009, 01:13:45 PM »

Could not agree more.  Such a person may well be a Christian, since there is forgiveness.  But a Bishop?  Not as I understand things.  I must agree with Tamara on this one.
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2009, 01:30:34 PM »

Where will he serve? Is he an auxillary Bishop.?.he is a registered sex offender.Florida is very strict...
Wht does Bishop Antoun think of this?
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2009, 01:37:25 PM »

Well, Bishop's can't be wed. And given what he was in trouble for I would say the man has a sexual desire he can't control so being celibate is not a good option for him. So he should just find a woman that he can love, and she will love him and get married. That would be my argument for him not coming back as Bishop.
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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2009, 01:46:33 PM »

or..he could just hide the woman and still be a Bishop..has that ever happened before? We cannot/should not post rumors but wasn't this once an issue in the OCA? I am asking  a question not spreading rumors but I remember being told about this once...I think it was in the Eastern part of the USA.
If this is offensive or against forum rules please forgive me...
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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2009, 02:00:17 PM »

or..he could just hide the woman and still be a Bishop..has that ever happened before? We cannot/should not post rumors but wasn't this once an issue in the OCA? I am asking  a question not spreading rumors but I remember being told about this once...I think it was in the Eastern part of the USA.
If this is offensive or against forum rules please forgive me...

I think you are refering to Aftimos Ofiesh, the successor to Bp. St. Raphael Hawaweeny.  He married, but that was in the open: he claimed that he was restoring the married episcopate.  The synod disagreed, and deposed him.
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« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 02:01:08 PM »

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

According to the Canons of the Orthodox Church, you cannot be punished twice for the same offence..... but look who I'm trying to talk to about the Orthodox Church.
So laity have no right to expect accountability from the clergy? The spin game is to say concerns are judgemental and perhaps more hair trigger than shortcomings that may be expressed in otherwise legitimate concerns.
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« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2009, 02:18:04 PM »

So laity have no right to expect accountability from the clergy? The spin game is to say concerns are judgemental and perhaps more hair trigger than shortcomings that may be expressed in otherwise legitimate concerns.
Exactly. He has no place being a Bishop. Is he holier than I could ever hope to be? Yes. But he shouldn't be a Bishop. Sorry, but I think that I am in the right here.
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« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2009, 02:55:17 PM »


Altered quote from OZGeorge
"The woman needs to be excommunicated so she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning gossip-monger within her archdiocese".


This really has nothing to do with "judging" the person in question - rather it is not appropriate for someone like that to be in a pastoral role.  The complacency about this by some really betrays quite a bit of misogyny. 
[/quote]

Immediately after Tamara's post, ozgeorge posted a new topic called "Spreading Lies at the Speed of Light". Clearly he is beyond "a bit of misogyny".   
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« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2009, 02:58:29 PM »

Quote
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2009, 03:20:07 PM »

So when does a "convicted felon" become just an ordinary sinner like the rest of us? The man was drunk, he groped a woman, he was convicted and he paid the penalty. Or has he not paid a "high enough" price for some? You know... I blush to think what others might think of me if my indiscretions and my sins were made public. And I'm just bold enough to suggest that the same could be said for each and every poster on this forum. Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?

The problem here is not with +Demetri, who like all of us is a sinner, and like all of us needs to spend his life in peace (if God grants it) and repentance--I am fond of point out that pride, self-esteem, wrath and sloth surely fetter more souls in Hades than do the sins of the flesh.

The problem is with Metropolitan Philip, who hampered the course laid out for the repentance of bishops who fall into grevious sins, by not setting +Demetri on proper path by deposing him.  The reason the felony conviction and sex offender registry status are relevant is that they create scandal.  And the only reason Tamara is bringing the matter up at all is the pseudonymous prophecies of Abdullah Khouri, all of which have come true except the last, that Metropolitan Philip would try to reinstate +Demetri in active ministry.

We all wish that +Demetri would be left in peace to repent, and that is one reason among many why we wish that he had been deposed, and one reason among many why we do not wish him to be reinstated as an active auxiliary or diocesan bishop.
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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2009, 03:32:36 PM »

Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?
You mean behave like Christians?

Sadly, Oz, they re behaving like Christians, based on my experience. Tommorow's Friday...Shabbat Shalom everybody!
I believe it was Gandhi who said something to the effect that he would've become a Christian but for the fact that he knew too many!
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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2009, 03:35:20 PM »

Immediately after Tamara's post, ozgeorge posted a new topic called "Spreading Lies at the Speed of Light". Clearly he is beyond "a bit of misogyny".   

No, he didn't.  He did so nearly a full day prior to Tamara's post and I've addressed your false accusation in greater detail there.
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« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2009, 03:52:31 PM »

Immediately after Tamara's post, ozgeorge posted a new topic called "Spreading Lies at the Speed of Light". Clearly he is beyond "a bit of misogyny".   

No, he didn't.  He did so nearly a full day prior to Tamara's post and I've addressed your false accusation in greater detail there.

I beg forgiveness.  ozgeorge wrote this topic before he Tamara's post.   
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« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2009, 03:53:44 PM »

So when does a "convicted felon" become just an ordinary sinner like the rest of us? The man was drunk, he groped a woman, he was convicted and he paid the penalty. Or has he not paid a "high enough" price for some? You know... I blush to think what others might think of me if my indiscretions and my sins were made public. And I'm just bold enough to suggest that the same could be said for each and every poster on this forum. Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2009, 03:56:25 PM »

I'm sorry but who is that Bishop, where is he from and what wrong has he done?
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« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2009, 04:30:32 PM »

I'm sorry but who is that Bishop, where is he from and what wrong has he done?

It's an American Orthodox custom. 
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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2009, 04:34:49 PM »

I'm sorry but who is that Bishop, where is he from and what wrong has he done?

It's an American Orthodox custom. 

I really appreciate your sense of humor and willingness to help but I think It's not the answer I'm looking for Tongue
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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2009, 07:00:20 PM »

. . . and then bring back a bishop that was lai[c]ized for sexual indiscretion . . .

Bishop Demetri was not deposed, but only suspended. It seems, further, that his suspension has been lifted.

As I recall, no canonical court was ever convened to try his case; perhaps it was feared by some that this would inevitably lead to his deposition, which would have been much more difficult to undo than a simple suspension.

Yes, no spiritual court was convened because he would have been deposed.
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« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2009, 07:16:51 PM »

He is living in some pretty nice digs but it appears to not be connected with a
Church..he probably can't because of the issue of churches having sunday schools
and he cannot live within a certain number of feet from a school or park as a
registered sex offender.
What is he going to do?
I cannot believe Met.Phillip did this with the issues happening in the
Antiochian Archdiocese right now.I cannot feel that this is very arrogant...people are going to be upset. I agree that he needs to repent and I,personally am a worse sinner than anyone but there are legal and logistical issues involved. Florida does not deal kindly with people who do not abide by the restrictions put upon REGISTERED {Emphasis mine} Sexual Offenders.
It is funny how life changes...a couple of years ago I didn;t think the OCA was
going to survive and now look at the Antiochian Archdiocese of America.
Stephen Montgomery



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« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2009, 07:28:17 PM »


Sex offenders must never be placed in positions of authority.


 

Don't worry Ms. Hoorah,

It will take a lot to silence me. And I agree, convicted sex offenders cannot be placed in positions of authority.

Allah Maa'ak (God be with you!), Tamara  Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2009, 07:35:57 PM »

Immediately after Tamara's post, ozgeorge posted a new topic called "Spreading Lies at the Speed of Light". Clearly he is beyond "a bit of misogyny".   

Now what have I told you before on this thread about hysterical dramatics?
See the troubles they get you in?
And the misinformation that is spread as a result?
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« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2009, 07:38:20 PM »

Who moderates Christian News?
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« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2009, 07:39:33 PM »



I certainly agree that Sexual Offenders and especially REGISTERED Sexual Offenders should not be placed in positions of authority but what if Metropolitan Phillip tries something ?
He appears to be relatively arrogant and not a good listener.
Has Bishop Antoun said something about this.This is in his Diocese..Oops wait! He is an Auxillary Bishop now.he also lives in Englewood,NJ even though he is the Auxillary Bishop of Miami.
Stephen
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« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2009, 07:41:06 PM »

Who moderates Christian News?

Yes. I would like to report a slanderous lie made about me on this thread.
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« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2009, 07:41:52 PM »

I am sorry..I cannot use the "quote " feature ..too much college....

I certainly agree that Sexual Offenders and especially REGISTERED Sexual Offenders should not be placed in positions of authority but what if Metropolitan Phillip tries something ?
He appears to be relatively arrogant and not a good listener.
Has Bishop Antoun said something about this.This is in his Diocese..Oops wait! He is an Auxillary Bishop now.he also lives in Englewood,NJ even though he is the Auxillary Bishop of Miami.
Stephen
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« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2009, 09:29:22 PM »

I'm confused.  Based on the title of this thread, where has Bishop DEMETRI returned from?  Where has he been all this time?  And has he returned specifically to take up a position as an Antiochian auxiliary bishop within the archdiocese?
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« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2009, 11:13:02 PM »

So when does a "convicted felon" become just an ordinary sinner like the rest of us? The man was drunk, he groped a woman, he was convicted and he paid the penalty. Or has he not paid a "high enough" price for some? You know... I blush to think what others might think of me if my indiscretions and my sins were made public. And I'm just bold enough to suggest that the same could be said for each and every poster on this forum. Rather than sit in judgment upon this man, why not humbly pray for him and let him be in peace?

Sure.  Let him be in peace.  DON'T let him preside over a diocese.
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« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2009, 11:33:19 PM »

I'm confused.  Based on the title of this thread, where has Bishop DEMETRI returned from?  Where has he been all this time?  And has he returned specifically to take up a position as an Antiochian auxiliary bishop within the archdiocese?

It seems he was in Mexico December 2008. Perhaps someone who can translate the Spanish can give us a clue.

http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/

Visita de su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury / 3-6 de diciembre de 2008

Año 2008


Archivo de Fotos
En la primera semana de diciembre, su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury estuvo en la ciudad de México visitando a Su Eminencia Sayedna Antonio, Arzobispo de Nuestra Arquidiócesis. También visitó al monasterio de San Antonio el Grande donde fue recibido por la Hermandad del Monasterio; su Exelencia compartió con los padres sus consejos y experiencias.

Cabe mencionar que, a partir de enero, Sayedna Demetri iniciará su misión episcopal como Obispo Auxiliar en nuestra Arquidiócesis; le deseamos todo éxito y nos encomendamos a sus oraciones.

 
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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2009, 12:01:09 AM »

Rough translation:

In the first week of December, His Excellency Bishop Demetri Khoury was in Mexico City visiting His Eminence Antonio, Archbishop of our Archdiocese.  Additionally, he visited the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great where he was received by the Brotherhood of the Monastery; His Excellency shared with the fathers his thoughts and experiences (I'm a little uncertain as to the last part; I can't recall what "compartio" and "consejos" are off the top of my head).

It should be mentioned that, in January, Bishop Demetri will initiate his episcopal mission as Auxiliary Bishop in our Archdiocese; (I had to resort to babelfish for the last part, as it was beyond my vocab, and as usual, babelfish translates a little too literally)
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« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2009, 01:22:13 AM »

I am sorry..I cannot use the "quote " feature ..too much college....

I certainly agree that Sexual Offenders and especially REGISTERED Sexual Offenders should not be placed in positions of authority but what if Metropolitan Phillip tries something ?
He appears to be relatively arrogant and not a good listener.
Has Bishop Antoun said something about this.This is in his Diocese..Oops wait! He is an Auxillary Bishop now.he also lives in Englewood,NJ even though he is the Auxillary Bishop of Miami.
Stephen

Really?  I understood just the opposite, that the Metropolitan was spending most of his time in Florida.
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« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2009, 09:07:55 AM »

Who moderates Christian News?

To answer your question, the Fora that have no named moderators (these would be the ones grouped together as "General Forums" like Christian News, Board News, or the Prayer Forum) are generally moderated by the entire moderation team, but are the primary responsibility of the Global Moderators (myself and Ozgeorge).
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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2009, 12:32:17 PM »

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

According to the Canons of the Orthodox Church, you cannot be punished twice for the same offence..... but look who I'm trying to talk to about the Orthodox Church.

Is it really necessary  to imply that Tamara is a "gossip-monger" and to put her down as somehow ignorant of the canons?
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2009, 12:37:57 PM »

. . . and then bring back a bishop that was lai[c]ized for sexual indiscretion . . .

Bishop Demetri was not deposed, but only suspended. It seems, further, that his suspension has been lifted.

As I recall, no canonical court was ever convened to try his case; perhaps it was feared by some that this would inevitably lead to his deposition, which would have been much more difficult to undo than a simple suspension.

So, if no canonical court was ever convened, who/what suspended him? Furthermore, if a canonical court did not address this case, can it be claimed that Bishop Demetri was "punished" or "convicted" and does cannot be deposed in the future?
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2009, 12:49:58 PM »

 Offenders may be placed on the sex offender list for periods of time, 5 years, 10 years... and some are put on the list for life.  So say someone is on the sex offender list for 5 years.  After his/her five years he/she is simply taken off the list and does not have to report his/her home address and work address and so forth and is no longer bound by the rules and restrictions of being on that list.


I'm merely passing along information about a USA law not speculating on this issue at all. 
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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2009, 01:02:14 PM »

In his inebriated condition, he groped a woman... period. He is not a child molester. He is not a rapist. To our knowledge, this was a one-time offense. But what I see here is a willingness to not forgive.. a willingness (almost glee?) to drag his name in the mud publicly. It seems to me that the woman caught in adultery (a much more serious sin than groping) was not condemned by our Lord. In fact He simply asked those who were without sin to cast the first stone. But here we evidently have many who are quite willing to cast stones (but under the guise of caring for the Church). I wonder if the original accusers of this adulterous woman were "caring for the synagogue and the community"? We ought not to be making these things public. If we really cared we would be praying for Bp Demetri and asking the Lord to forgive our miserable souls (because our souls [mine especially]) are miserable with self-righteous indignation, hypocrisy and an unforgiving spirit. Lord, have mercy. Sad
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« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2009, 01:06:09 PM »

In his inebriated condition, he groped a woman... period. He is not a child molester. He is not a rapist. To our knowledge, this was a one-time offense. But what I see here is a willingness to not forgive.. a willingness (almost glee?) to drag his name in the mud publicly. It seems to me that the woman caught in adultery (a much more serious sin than groping) was not condemned by our Lord. In fact He simply asked those who were without sin to cast the first stone. But here we evidently have many who are quite willing to cast stones (but under the guise of caring for the Church). I wonder if the original accusers of this adulterous woman were "caring for the synagogue and the community"? We ought not to be making these things public. If we really cared we would be praying for Bp Demetri and asking the Lord to forgive our miserable souls (because our souls [mine especially]) are miserable with self-righteous indignation, hypocrisy and an unforgiving spirit. Lord, have mercy. Sad


Your view sounds much like what the Roman Catholic dioceses did, cover up scandal and sweep it under the rug. 
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« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2009, 01:09:16 PM »

If the guy gets put in some office of responsibility, or they try, then raise a fuss.  Otherwise posting his mug shot is just kicking his you-know-what in the dirt.
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« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2009, 01:15:37 PM »




Your view sounds much like what the Roman Catholic dioceses did, cover up scandal and sweep it under the rug. 



Not at all. I applaud Met Philip for dealing the the situation in the manner in which he did by removing Bp Demetri from his episcopal responsibilities. I also applaud him for taking a loving and healing approach to this man by not casting him away. The RC method of denial and sweeping things under the rug is not comparable.
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« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2009, 01:16:50 PM »

If the guy gets put in some office of responsibility, or they try, then raise a fuss.  Otherwise posting his mug shot is just kicking his you-know-what in the dirt.

Exactly.
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« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2009, 01:34:06 PM »




Your view sounds much like what the Roman Catholic dioceses did, cover up scandal and sweep it under the rug. 



Not at all. I applaud Met Philip for dealing the the situation in the manner in which he did by removing Bp Demetri from his episcopal responsibilities. I also applaud him for taking a loving and healing approach to this man by not casting him away. The RC method of denial and sweeping things under the rug is not comparable.

Didn't mention Met Phillip, I mentioned your approach in your post. 
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« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2009, 01:40:40 PM »

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

According to the Canons of the Orthodox Church, you cannot be punished twice for the same offence..... but look who I'm trying to talk to about the Orthodox Church.

Is it really necessary  to imply that Tamara is a "gossip-monger" and to put her down as somehow ignorant of the canons?

Don't worry. He can call me whatever he wants. I will keep posting information in this thread on this subject as it becomes available. But even moderators are expected to show respect and civility when posting replies. We all have to follow the same rules set up in the guidelines of this forum.
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« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2009, 01:58:05 PM »

. . . and then bring back a bishop that was lai[c]ized for sexual indiscretion . . .

Bishop Demetri was not deposed, but only suspended. It seems, further, that his suspension has been lifted.

As I recall, no canonical court was ever convened to try his case; perhaps it was feared by some that this would inevitably lead to his deposition, which would have been much more difficult to undo than a simple suspension.

So, if no canonical court was ever convened, who/what suspended him? Furthermore, if a canonical court did not address this case, can it be claimed that Bishop Demetri was "punished" or "convicted" and does cannot be deposed in the future?

OOPS. I need to correct my post. It should read: "So, if no canonical court was ever convened, who/what suspended him? Furthermore, if a canonical court did not address this case, can it be claimed that Bishop Demetri was "punished" or "convicted" and does that mean that he cannot be deposed in the future?"
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« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2009, 02:03:49 PM »

In his inebriated condition, he groped a woman... period. He is not a child molester. He is not a rapist. To our knowledge, this was a one-time offense. But what I see here is a willingness to not forgive.. a willingness (almost glee?) to drag his name in the mud publicly. It seems to me that the woman caught in adultery (a much more serious sin than groping) was not condemned by our Lord. In fact He simply asked those who were without sin to cast the first stone. But here we evidently have many who are quite willing to cast stones (but under the guise of caring for the Church). I wonder if the original accusers of this adulterous woman were "caring for the synagogue and the community"? We ought not to be making these things public. If we really cared we would be praying for Bp Demetri and asking the Lord to forgive our miserable souls (because our souls [mine especially]) are miserable with self-righteous indignation, hypocrisy and an unforgiving spirit. Lord, have mercy. Sad

The  Bishop is suppose to be A Ikona of God the Father..He should  either be counted amongs the lay, or sent to a monastery as a monk the rest of his life, to contemplate the errors of his way.Theres No excuse for him in what he did...
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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2009, 02:17:14 PM »

Offenders may be placed on the sex offender list for periods of time, 5 years, 10 years... and some are put on the list for life.  So say someone is on the sex offender list for 5 years.  After his/her five years he/she is simply taken off the list and does not have to report his/her home address and work address and so forth and is no longer bound by the rules and restrictions of being on that list.


I'm merely passing along information about a USA law not speculating on this issue at all. 

That isn;t how it works here in Florida
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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2009, 02:41:48 PM »

In his inebriated condition, he groped a woman... period. He is not a child molester. He is not a rapist. To our knowledge, this was a one-time offense. But what I see here is a willingness to not forgive.. a willingness (almost glee?) to drag his name in the mud publicly. It seems to me that the woman caught in adultery (a much more serious sin than groping) was not condemned by our Lord. In fact He simply asked those who were without sin to cast the first stone. But here we evidently have many who are quite willing to cast stones (but under the guise of caring for the Church). I wonder if the original accusers of this adulterous woman were "caring for the synagogue and the community"? We ought not to be making these things public. If we really cared we would be praying for Bp Demetri and asking the Lord to forgive our miserable souls (because our souls [mine especially]) are miserable with self-righteous indignation, hypocrisy and an unforgiving spirit. Lord, have mercy. Sad

As someone on this thread pointed out, this isn't an issue of focusing on our own sin & not judging others. Clergy are held to a higher standard than the laity and must be held publicly accountable for severe moral failings. What he did was severely immoral & he is no longer fit to serve in a clerical role. Can you imagine women who have experienced sexual harassment being under the spiritial authority of such a man?

I hope he repents and heals, but to allow or approve of this man functioning in a place of authority under the attitude that "we shouldn't judge because we are all sinners, etc.." is at best being an enabler (like those in a co dependent relationship).

It would be insane for Metropolitain PHILIP to appoint this man as any type of auxillary bishop. He would have to be completely out of touch if he thinks the faithful would tolerate such a thing.
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« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2009, 03:22:41 PM »

I cannot believe I'm about to reply to this "discussion", but I guess I will.....

 first, I'm shocked by the way Orthodox Christians are treating each other in this thread...secondly, I'm even, and this the disturbing part, more shocked that some people feel like what this Bishop did wasn't really "that bad" in comparison to what "those Roman Catholics did".....now granted no one has right out stated it in these exact words, but the writing is on the wall in many of these posts.

 Yes, we are to forgive, and help each other in their weaknesses, and yes we're all equal in the eyes of God, all are sinners, all can be forgiven, and God's mercy is withheld from no one....however we're not talking about personal judgment here, we're talking about administrative judgment, and even though I'm used to a lot of this sort of politics in Orthodoxy, I must say, I'm scandalized by all of this. The idea that this man could even by considered to once again become a Bishop with authority of a diocese is outrageous. It's not a judgment on his personal character, on the man himself; anymore than it's a judgment on the character of Pope Benedict the 16th, when Orthodox say they believe he's incorrect on some doctrinal issue...we just disagree with him. If Some Christians, Orthodox, Catholic or otherwise cannot separate the office from the man, then that's their problem. (and obviously many cannot) I've seen no one say "this man is going to hell", or "he's evil" or any of the medieval terms that were thrown around in times past (Church history past)....but just because we forgive the man, and bring him back into the fold, doesn't mean we then put him right back into a position of authority. By doing so, we'd be partly responsible for any future sins he committed IMO.

Maybe this was a "one time" event, the groping incident that is...and yet, groping a woman is not exactly the same sort of "one time" event like getting a speeding ticket on an empty country road....or shop lifting a candy bar....it's not just an abstract minor crime, it's a violation of another human being, another icon of Christ. Alcohol often brings out things inside a person they'd rather not confront, but they come from within, and not without. (IMO, I'm no dr. phil)....so something else is going on here.

He's admitted he has a drinking problem, and that is NOT a one time incident. Now it may very well be he's got all this nipped in the bud...that Christ has healed him, and that he is now a saint.....if that is the case he'll likely refuse any positions offered to him because in God's wisdom saints probably realize when something is just "too soon"....

In the end, this man, while we should are commanded to forgive him, doesn't mean there aren't conseuqences. Let him teach, let do any number of things to serve the Church, but a Bishop he should not be.









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« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2009, 04:48:11 PM »

If the guy gets put in some office of responsibility, or they try, then raise a fuss.  Otherwise posting his mug shot is just kicking his you-know-what in the dirt.

He was never deposed from his office as a bishop. And he is in a position of responsibility according to the website in Mexico. He is one of their auxiliaries.

http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/

Visita de su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury / 3-6 de diciembre de 2008

Año 2008


Archivo de Fotos
En la primera semana de diciembre, su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury estuvo en la ciudad de México visitando a Su Eminencia Sayedna Antonio, Arzobispo de Nuestra Arquidiócesis. También visitó al monasterio de San Antonio el Grande donde fue recibido por la Hermandad del Monasterio; su Exelencia compartió con los padres sus consejos y experiencias.

Cabe mencionar que, a partir de enero, Sayedna Demetri iniciará su misión episcopal como Obispo Auxiliar en nuestra Arquidiócesis; le deseamos todo éxito y nos encomendamos a sus oraciones.


Rough translation (from Veniamin):

In the first week of December, His Excellency Bishop Demetri Khoury was in Mexico City visiting His Eminence Antonio, Archbishop of our Archdiocese.  Additionally, he visited the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great where he was received by the Brotherhood of the Monastery; His Excellency shared with the fathers his thoughts and experiences (I'm a little uncertain as to the last part; I can't recall what "compartio" and "consejos" are off the top of my head).

It should be mentioned that, in January, Bishop Demetri will initiate his episcopal mission as Auxiliary Bishop in our Archdiocese;
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« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2009, 05:07:02 PM »

If the guy gets put in some office of responsibility, or they try, then raise a fuss.  Otherwise posting his mug shot is just kicking his you-know-what in the dirt.

He was never deposed from his office as a bishop. And he is in a position of responsibility according to the website in Mexico. He is one of their auxiliaries.

http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/

Visita de su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury / 3-6 de diciembre de 2008

Año 2008


Archivo de Fotos
En la primera semana de diciembre, su Exelencia Obispo Demetri Khoury estuvo en la ciudad de México visitando a Su Eminencia Sayedna Antonio, Arzobispo de Nuestra Arquidiócesis. También visitó al monasterio de San Antonio el Grande donde fue recibido por la Hermandad del Monasterio; su Exelencia compartió con los padres sus consejos y experiencias.

Cabe mencionar que, a partir de enero, Sayedna Demetri iniciará su misión episcopal como Obispo Auxiliar en nuestra Arquidiócesis; le deseamos todo éxito y nos encomendamos a sus oraciones.


Rough translation (from Veniamin):

In the first week of December, His Excellency Bishop Demetri Khoury was in Mexico City visiting His Eminence Antonio, Archbishop of our Archdiocese.  Additionally, he visited the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great where he was received by the Brotherhood of the Monastery; His Excellency shared with the fathers his thoughts and experiences (I'm a little uncertain as to the last part; I can't recall what "compartio" and "consejos" are off the top of my head).

It should be mentioned that, in January, Bishop Demetri will initiate his episcopal mission as Auxiliary Bishop in our Archdiocese;


Disclaimer for anyone reading my translation.  I am only somewhat proficient in Spanish and make absolutely no guarantees that I have translated the article accurately.  My translation above should not be taken as proof of anything.
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« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2009, 05:13:33 PM »

And I agree, convicted sex offenders cannot be placed in positions of authority.
Are you then saying that Bishop Demetri should NEVER be restored to his position of authority, not even if he shows abundantly the fruit of repentance, healing, and sanctity some time in the future?
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« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2009, 05:29:58 PM »

The man woman needs to be deposed excommunicated so he she can heal, not be brought back as a functioning bishop gossip-monger within our her archdiocese.

According to the Canons of the Orthodox Church, you cannot be punished twice for the same offence..... but look who I'm trying to talk to about the Orthodox Church.

Is it really necessary  to imply that Tamara is a "gossip-monger" and to put her down as somehow ignorant of the canons?
Have you taken the chance to peruse through her posting history here?  You might gain a much broader perspective than you've been able to see thus far in the less than two months you've been active here (assuming you've not been lurking here for a long time before that).

If all she was doing in this thread was merely announcing the news that Bishop Demetri had returned to the U.S. and that she opposes his being reinstated to the episcopacy, then maybe that in itself might not be worthy of being called gossip.  But let us look at some of the other things Tamara has said on this thread.


And +demetri is favored by the priests in Detroit.

And there are some very powerful priests in the archdiocese who want to make it happen.

What do the above two statements have to do with a rational discussion of whether Bishop Demetri should be restored to his episcopal see or not?  They read more like speculative statements of gossip spoken to elicit an indignant response from us than like anything of real substance.  If she can substantiate the statements with outside corroboration, then maybe they will appear more credible.  As they stand now, however, those assertions look more like attempts to undermine the idea that Bishop Demetri should be reinstated by making arguments in his favor look like a part of some vast conspiracy of the rich and powerful.


Yes, no spiritual court was convened because he would have been deposed.

How does Tamara know this?  If she can't substantiate this--and I don't know how anyone can substantiate something that never happened--then how is this not gossip?
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« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2009, 06:09:12 PM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
Our diocesan bishops have been reduced to auxiliaries.

http://www.ocanews.org/news/PrescientEmail3.18.09.html

Text of the 2007 Email

"From: Abdallah Khouri
Date: September 28, 2007
Subject: Betrayed by Philip Saliba

My brothers in Christ!

Our Archdiocese is a gift of God to this land, and it shine a light in the darkness to bring Orthodoxy to the nation. We have made struggles and sacrificings to glorify God.

Now we hear that our Metropolitan Phillip is betraying us.

How is this? Have you not heard?

Yes, he is asking bishops of the holy synod of Antioch to renounce our Self Rule and return us to the 'old constitution'. He also paid these bishops to ask the synod to depose our diocese's bishops and take the ministries from them.

Did we not go to Pittsburgh to elect our bishops and draw maps of dioceses? Did Metropolitan Phillip not insist such things? Yet he betrays us through others, too weak to make the journey himself, and too weak to look us in the eye. He takes the tithes we give to him and makes bribe as one generous to the poor.

You say I am a liar? I do not tell the truth? Then I will show show you how he betrays you. Where has bishop Demetri been this time? You have undoubtedly heard he is in Mexico to learn Spanish. Philip betrays us again when all the bishops say no to demetri, with one voice against a sexual offender. But Philip makes the synod take Demetri and make him a biship far away to Chile, so he can come back like the boomerrang.

If you say that I am not telling truth, then ask Philip yourself. He will not deny his support so his Palestinians keep the peace. Demetri's men attack bishop Mark like rabid dogs. The man they vote for in Pittsburgh.

See how the traitors find each other!

Forgive me brothers to make your hearts heavy, but now your voice must go all the way to Damascus.

If they fall, I ask you brothers to take the holy antimens, without the relics and put in a clean envelope and mail to the Saidna Hazim* himself;

Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East
P.O. Box 9
Damascus
Syria

Let them know that betrayed by Philip is unacceptable."

"Saidna Hazim" refers to the current Patriarch of Antioch, Ignatius (Hazim). It is not known if any priests returned their antimensia. And reports indicate that "Abdallah Khouri" recently struck again with an recent email to all the Bishops and select clergy. The message? "I told you so."
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« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2009, 09:04:28 PM »

Maybe this was a "one time" event, the groping incident that is...and yet, groping a woman is not exactly the same sort of "one time" event like getting a speeding ticket on an empty country road....or shop lifting a candy bar....it's not just an abstract minor crime, it's a violation of another human being, another icon of Christ. Alcohol often brings out things inside a person they'd rather not confront, but they come from within, and not without. (IMO, I'm no dr. phil)....so something else is going on here.

He's admitted he has a drinking problem, and that is NOT a one time incident. Now it may very well be he's got all this nipped in the bud...that Christ has healed him, and that he is now a saint.....if that is the case he'll likely refuse any positions offered to him because in God's wisdom saints probably realize when something is just "too soon"....

In the end, this man, while we should are commanded to forgive him, doesn't mean there aren't conseuqences. Let him teach, let do any number of things to serve the Church, but a Bishop he should not be.


There were consequences and they have been administered. I will also say this: with the same measure that you now feel free to judge Bp Demetri, you will also be judged. It's not my idea of justice but rather the Lord's. It seems to me that we need to be very circumspect in how we express our righteous indignation. He is a bishop... yes... but he is also a man and a sinner like every other man... including hierarchs of the Church.
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« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2009, 09:19:41 PM »

Maybe this was a "one time" event, the groping incident that is...and yet, groping a woman is not exactly the same sort of "one time" event like getting a speeding ticket on an empty country road....or shop lifting a candy bar....it's not just an abstract minor crime, it's a violation of another human being, another icon of Christ. Alcohol often brings out things inside a person they'd rather not confront, but they come from within, and not without. (IMO, I'm no dr. phil)....so something else is going on here.

He's admitted he has a drinking problem, and that is NOT a one time incident. Now it may very well be he's got all this nipped in the bud...that Christ has healed him, and that he is now a saint.....if that is the case he'll likely refuse any positions offered to him because in God's wisdom saints probably realize when something is just "too soon"....

In the end, this man, while we should are commanded to forgive him, doesn't mean there aren't conseuqences. Let him teach, let do any number of things to serve the Church, but a Bishop he should not be.


There were consequences and they have been administered. I will also say this: with the same measure that you now feel free to judge Bp Demetri, you will also be judged. It's not my idea of justice but rather the Lord's. It seems to me that we need to be very circumspect in how we express our righteous indignation. He is a bishop... yes... but he is also a man and a sinner like every other man... including hierarchs of the Church.

You need to read my previous post

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21172.msg319136.html#msg319136
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« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2009, 10:17:08 PM »

Disclaimer for anyone reading my translation.  I am only somewhat proficient in Spanish and make absolutely no guarantees that I have translated the article accurately.  My translation above should not be taken as proof of anything.

Veniamin> Your translation was very good on the whole. I reproduce it below, with a couple of negligible corrections, and adding the last line:

"During the first week of December, His Excellency, Bishop Demetri Khoury was in Mexico City visiting His Eminence Antonio, Archbishop of our Archdiocese.  Additionally, he visited the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great where he was received by the Brotherhood of the Monastery; His Excellency shared with the fathers his counsel and experiences.

It should be mentioned that, starting in January, Sayedna Demetri will begin his episcopal mission as Auxiliary Bishop in our Archdiocese. We wish him every success and entrust ourselves to his prayers."

So, if no canonical court was ever convened, who/what suspended him? Furthermore, if a canonical court did not address this case, can it be claimed that Bishop Demetri was "punished" or "convicted" and does that mean that he cannot be deposed in the future?

Bishops suspend Priests and Deacons, and Synods suspend Bishops. Whether the Antiochian Synod formally suspended Bishop Demetri I do not know, but in any case, he did not serve while his suspension lasted.

He was not, in fact, canonically punished for this offense, as the punishment would have been deposition. It is quite right that the Canons forbid that someone be punished twice for the same offense; this means, in Bishop Demetri's case, that he could not have been both deposed and excommunicated (i.e., barred from the Mysteries for a period of time) for this single offense.
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« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2009, 10:42:00 PM »

I don't understand why the holy synod did not depose + Demetri?
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« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2009, 11:37:28 PM »

It is quite right that the Canons forbid that someone be punished twice for the same offense;

His Synod of Bishops seems to have punished him twice...

1.  A period of excommunication
2.  A period of exile.
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« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2009, 11:58:52 PM »

It is quite right that the Canons forbid that someone be punished twice for the same offense;

His Synod of Bishops seems to have punished him twice...

1.  A period of excommunication
2.  A period of exile.

But there couldn't have been a spiritual court because the synod was not a true synod at the time. They were auxiliaries.
We didn't have diocesan bishops or dioceses. Metropolitan Philip would not have been allowed to have spiritual court of one (himself).
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« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2009, 12:04:45 AM »

It is quite right that the Canons forbid that someone be punished twice for the same offense;

His Synod of Bishops seems to have punished him twice...

1.  A period of excommunication
2.  A period of exile.

But there couldn't have been a spiritual court because the synod was not a true synod at the time. They were auxiliaries.
We didn't have diocesan bishops or dioceses. Metropolitan Philip would not have been allowed to have spiritual court of one (himself).

Of course not, the decision was made by the Synod in Damascus, whose decisions are not open to public scrutiny.

When a defendant is sentenced to probation in a criminal court, he/she has to follow a certain set of conditions.  If the Patriarchal Synod in Damascus ordered Bishop Demetri to separate Himself from Communion followed by exile, both conditions represent one punishment for the same transgression.
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« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2009, 12:23:49 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.
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« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2009, 12:50:09 AM »

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.
IOW, Tamara, I think you're using the Bishop Demetri case as yet another piece of evidence to prove that Metropolitan Philip is too hungry for power to be fit to serve as your Metropolitan.
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« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2009, 01:44:40 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.

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« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2009, 01:46:17 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin
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« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2009, 01:49:03 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin


You have no way of knowing what I think so just stop the harrassment right now.
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« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2009, 01:59:42 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin


You have no way of knowing what I think so just stop the harrassment right now.
Well, why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

You're posting on an internet discussion forum.  Everything anyone, including you, posts here will be subject to scrutiny the moment it appears in public.  Do you somehow think your assertions are beyond this scrutiny?
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« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2009, 02:08:52 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin


You have no way of knowing what I think so just stop the harrassment right now.
Well, why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

You're posting on an internet discussion forum.  Everything anyone, including you, posts here will be subject to scrutiny the moment it appears in public.  Do you somehow think your assertions are beyond this scrutiny?

Scrutiny is one thing. Stepping over someone's personal boundaries is quite another.  I don't let anyone tell me they can read my mind off line and I am not going to allow anyone here to do it.

I am finished talking to you.
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« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2009, 02:12:00 AM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin


You have no way of knowing what I think so just stop the harrassment right now.
Well, why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

You're posting on an internet discussion forum.  Everything anyone, including you, posts here will be subject to scrutiny the moment it appears in public.  Do you somehow think your assertions are beyond this scrutiny?

Scrutiny is one thing. Stepping over someone's personal boundaries is quite another.  I don't let anyone tell me they can read my mind off line and I am not going to allow anyone here to do it.

I am finished talking to you.
But I never said I could read your mind.  I only pointed out what you had already made obvious.
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« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2009, 02:34:39 AM »

I don't understand why the holy synod did not depose + Demetri?

He retired.  It is refered to in the timeline:
http://www.orthodoxattorneys.org/docs/TimelineFinal.pdf
and he was listed as retired on the official website:
http://www.orthodoxattorneys.org/docs/exh/Ex_24_-_Bishop_DEMETRI.pdf

Someone who was involved told me that assurances were given at the time that +Demetri would not be taken out of retirement.  He focused on the assurances given by the Metropolitan, so I don't know if he can corroborate that the bishops all signed off on the agreement.  I'll ask.

The official word was that the "Policies and Procedures" adopted would be followed in this matter.  Have they?
http://www.orthodoxattorneys.org/docs/exh/Ex_22_-_2003_0714_statement%20re_Bp_DEMETRI_fr_Arch.pdf

That's not an idle question: they were adopted by the Board of Trustees, and are used as a sort of legal disclaimer for disconduct by clergy.  If not, when a clergyman commits an act that everyone considers serious (the law isn't considering the seriousness of +Demetri's action in comparison to anything else.  Another court isn't going to either), let's say rape, a court can, and most assuredly, based on the precedence of what is happening to the Vatican's diocese's, will, hold the Archdiocese liable for damages for fostering an hostile environment, blah, blah, blah...

It is quite right that the Canons forbid that someone be punished twice for the same offense;

His Synod of Bishops seems to have punished him twice...

1.  A period of excommunication
2.  A period of exile.

They didn't punish him at all.  He was put on retirement pending the criminal procedings, per the policies.  When he was convicted, he tendered his resignation, which the Synod accepted.  The alleged restrictions put on his serving were the terms of his retirement.

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?

Perhaps his accuracy in making the call?

Quote
  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

I am sure plenty in the Vatican's Boston Archdiocese share the same opinion on the matter.  But maybe they just have something personal against Met. Philip. Roll Eyes

Quote
2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

So Metropolitan Philip wants to become the Orthodox Cardinal Law.  That's enough to grip about.  Just ask the Vatican's Boston Archdiocese.

IOW, Tamara, I think you're using the Bishop Demetri case as yet another piece of evidence to prove that Metropolitan Philip is too hungry for power to be fit to serve as your Metropolitan.

Of course the case of Bishop Demetri being another piece of evidence (see the Timeline) that proves, if true, that Metropolitan Philip is not fit to serve as anyone's Metropolitan is off point. Roll Eyes

I was appalled when Cardinal Law was reassigned to the Vatican.  Did you have any thoughts on the matter?

The courts have.  But then, in the interest of full disclosure, I might mention that a benefactor of our parish, a millionaire, is not even Orthodox, but a communicant with the Vatican.  He gives to us, he says, because he knows "that the money will be put to good use. If I give it to my church, it will go to pay off lawsuits for paedophile priests."  I doubt that he will make that distinction between sodomizing boys and gropping women, and, if the Policy and Procedures weren't followed and the archdiocese is opening itself liable for damages, I guess we stand to lose some support.

Then again, it might not come to that: someone from the parish involved on the Archdiocese level with a financial background (and the father of 5 daughters) back a while made the statement that Fr. Allen left a bad taste in his mouth, and he wasn't going to swallow backsliding on the promises Met. Phillip on the +Demetri matter.  So, like our beloved Bishop (not auxiliary) Mark's letter to the legal team for the Archdiocese, and the fact that criminal and liability law in the U.S. are outside Met. Philip or Damascus fiat, Englewood is going to find itself in a corner on this as well.

It promises to be an interesting convention come July.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin

Fortunatly for Tamara, at times so is Met. Philip:witness the Bright Friday debacle.
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« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2009, 02:38:09 AM »

^ What does the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston have to do with this subject?
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« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2009, 03:00:20 AM »

^ What does the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston have to do with this subject?

Because they are all the same in the eyes of US law, and if you think that a US court is going to apply a different standard to the Archdiocese should, God forbid!, she be named with a clergyman in an abuse case, with a record of ignoring its own guidelines and reinstating a convicted sex offender (the US courts decided how serious it was when it decided Bp Demetri was facing 2 years prison: the courts don't recognize Christian forgiveness and mercy) required to register as such, well, you're welcome to your world of make believe.  The Convention in July will be dealing with the real world. And that aspect, unlike the demoting of diocesan bishops, the US court will NOT take a neutral approach.  The legal trustees are going to have to deal with it.
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« Reply #89 on: May 10, 2009, 07:57:31 AM »

^ What does the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston have to do with this subject?
They are the only true Roman Church (apparently).
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« Reply #90 on: May 10, 2009, 08:13:26 AM »

His Synod of Bishops seems to have punished him twice...

1.  A period of excommunication
2.  A period of exile.

He was not excommunicated: he was only suspended. Neither was he "exiled": while suspended he lived in Florida, reportedly "doing research to transform the . . . Archdiocese 'Priest’s Guide' into a new Archdiocese Guide for Clergy and Laity that reflects [the] self-rule status" and "receiving some financial assistance from the Archdiocese" (source); and after his suspension was lifted, he apparently resumed active episcopal ministry in another diocese. As you know, a clergyman cannot receive a canonical penance of excommunication without being deposed, as this would amount to a double punishment for a single offense. Neither retirement nor suspension constitute a canonical punishment--if that were the case, no suspended clergyman could be deposed for the same offense, but offending clergymen are normally suspended pending the judgement of a canonical court.
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« Reply #91 on: May 10, 2009, 09:00:36 AM »

I've stayed out of commenting on this sorry situation until now. However, to me, this is still the ruling bishop's call. When this first surfaced I wondered at the initial canonical violation of a priest or bishop even being IN the establishment where said violation occurred. That alone merited deposition, secular law infractions aside. But, again, it is still the bishop's call.
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« Reply #92 on: May 10, 2009, 12:43:23 PM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin


You have no way of knowing what I think so just stop the harrassment right now.
Well, why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

You're posting on an internet discussion forum.  Everything anyone, including you, posts here will be subject to scrutiny the moment it appears in public.  Do you somehow think your assertions are beyond this scrutiny?

Scrutiny is one thing. Stepping over someone's personal boundaries is quite another.  I don't let anyone tell me they can read my mind off line and I am not going to allow anyone here to do it.

I am finished talking to you.
But I never said I could read your mind.  I only pointed out what you had already made obvious.

The only thing that is obvious is your willingness to tread over my personal boundaries.

Respect Others -- Things can (and do) get heated on this board.  Any attempt to harass or threaten another poster, whether publically or privately, can and will result in a permanent ban.  Based on the severity of the incident, it may also warrant report to law enforcement authorities.  Keep civil and respectful of others. .
 
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« Reply #93 on: May 10, 2009, 03:36:05 PM »

Email from "Abdullah Khouri" whose warnings and prophecies have so far come true.
1.  You speak of Abdullah Khouri as if he is some kind of clairvoyant holy man.  Why?  Would you even care what he had to say if you and he didn't share the same opinion of Metropolitan Philip?

2.  Be honest with us, Tamara.  You care nothing for Bishop Demetri or about the fact he is now in the U.S.  You're just using him as a front for your REAL agenda, which is to continue your complaint against Metropolitan Philip.  There's certainly much about Metropolitan Philip's recent, apparently heavy-handed management of the Antiochian Archdiocese worthy of your and my complaint.  I just want you to be honest with us, if griping about Metropolitan Philip is all you REALLY want to do, and not hide behind the facade of self-righteous indignation toward Bishop Demetri.

No, I don't think he is a clairvoyant, he is just someone in the position to know what is happening.
What I find really interesting is you think you have the ability to read my mind. But you don't, so knock it off.
But you're just SO transparent. Grin


You have no way of knowing what I think so just stop the harrassment right now.
Well, why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

You're posting on an internet discussion forum.  Everything anyone, including you, posts here will be subject to scrutiny the moment it appears in public.  Do you somehow think your assertions are beyond this scrutiny?

Scrutiny is one thing. Stepping over someone's personal boundaries is quite another.  I don't let anyone tell me they can read my mind off line and I am not going to allow anyone here to do it.

I am finished talking to you.
But I never said I could read your mind.  I only pointed out what you had already made obvious.

The only thing that is obvious is your willingness to tread over my personal boundaries.

Respect Others -- Things can (and do) get heated on this board.  Any attempt to harass or threaten another poster, whether publically or privately, can and will result in a permanent ban.  Based on the severity of the incident, it may also warrant report to law enforcement authorities.  Keep civil and respectful of others. .
 

PetertheAleut,

I think your recent postings to Tamara sound pretty harsh, judgmental and mean. I don't say this to offend you or make you mad, but this is how it sounds to me. Tamara has posted reasonable concerns about +Demitri and how his situation is being handled. From Tamara's posts over the years, it would seem inconsistent with her character to say "she doesn't care" about +Demitri. I also wouldn't assign motives to her. Tamara has always come across as an even tempered, genuine person (in my experience).
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« Reply #94 on: May 10, 2009, 03:36:38 PM »

^ What does the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston have to do with this subject?
They are the only true Roman Church (apparently).

Apparently?  Can't you provide a citation?
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« Reply #95 on: May 10, 2009, 11:34:54 PM »

If the guy gets put in some office of responsibility, or they try, then raise a fuss.  Otherwise posting his mug shot is just kicking his you-know-what in the dirt.

He was never deposed from his office as a bishop. And he is in a position of responsibility according to the website in Mexico. He is one of their auxiliaries.

http://www.iglesiaortodoxa.org.mx/

[citation and translation]

Disclaimer for anyone reading my translation.  I am only somewhat proficient in Spanish and make absolutely no guarantees that I have translated the article accurately.  My translation above should not be taken as proof of anything.

I'll copy and past your excellent start of a translation, plus finish it off (boldfaced parts are my editing):

"In the first week of December, His Excellency Bishop Demetri Khoury was in Mexico City visiting His Eminence Antonio, Archbishop of our Archdiocese.  Additionally, he visited the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great where he was received by the Brotherhood of the Monastery; His Excellency shared with the fathers his advice and experiences.

It should be mentioned that, from January on, Bishop Demetri will initiate his episcopal mission as Auxiliary Bishop in our Archdiocese; we wish him nothing but success and commend him to your prayers.

Well, why don't you tell us what you REALLY think?

Why don't YOU provide some evidence that what she "REALLY" thinks is REALLY different from what she has explicitly posted here?  Until you can do that, extend her the benefit of the doubt.
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« Reply #96 on: May 11, 2009, 01:17:03 AM »

. . . we wish him nothing but success and commend him to your prayers.

Not that this point is all that important, but for the sake of precision: "nos encomendamos a sus oraciones" does not mean "we . . . commend him to your prayers," but as I suggested above, "we . . . entrust [or commend] ourselves to his prayers."
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« Reply #97 on: May 11, 2009, 11:28:06 AM »

Maybe this was a "one time" event, the groping incident that is...and yet, groping a woman is not exactly the same sort of "one time" event like getting a speeding ticket on an empty country road....or shop lifting a candy bar....it's not just an abstract minor crime, it's a violation of another human being, another icon of Christ. Alcohol often brings out things inside a person they'd rather not confront, but they come from within, and not without. (IMO, I'm no dr. phil)....so something else is going on here.

He's admitted he has a drinking problem, and that is NOT a one time incident. Now it may very well be he's got all this nipped in the bud...that Christ has healed him, and that he is now a saint.....if that is the case he'll likely refuse any positions offered to him because in God's wisdom saints probably realize when something is just "too soon"....

In the end, this man, while we should are commanded to forgive him, doesn't mean there aren't conseuqences. Let him teach, let do any number of things to serve the Church, but a Bishop he should not be.


There were consequences and they have been administered. I will also say this: with the same measure that you now feel free to judge Bp Demetri, you will also be judged. It's not my idea of justice but rather the Lord's. It seems to me that we need to be very circumspect in how we express our righteous indignation. He is a bishop... yes... but he is also a man and a sinner like every other man... including hierarchs of the Church.

So when a Bishop does something immoral, lives an immoral life, or has some sickness (like alcoholism) we're not aloud to point these things out because we're "judging" him? That's news to me, and I think many of the saints would be surprised to hear of such a concept as well.

That seems to be the same stance taken in the diocese in Alaska in the OCA. That seems to be the same stance MANY people had with the OCA financial scandal. That seems to me, to be the same stance that "some" in the Church have used for centuries to allow all sorts of corruption to affect the Church. The whole idea of "protecting" the Church is just nonsense. We protect people, individuals, the Church and the heirarchy need no protection.

I'm sorry that you cannot separate the office from the man, and that you don't understand the difference between adminstrative judgments and actually judging the individual, but I have a feeling that if this were a Catholic Bishop, people would be up in arms shaking their fists and crying out "those Latins are at it again"...but because this man is an Orthodox Bishop we just let all this slide? Good grief! I'm sorry, but I seriously do NOT understand what you're saying or why you're saying it. The man, whom I've never met, is probably a likable enough guy, and for all I know he is completely and utterly repentant, (though he could be completely unrepetent none of us know this only God knows, and maybe his confessor), and this man may be ushered into the Kingdom while I am shut out...those decisions are up to God, and only God, and I am not judging him on matters of salvation, or personal character, or how holy of an individual he may or may not be.....But I just cannot believe my eyes; people shrugging this off as "well he only did it once"...what if he had raped this woman? Would you still be saying "well he repented, let him continue to be a Bishop?"

If this man were a Catholic priest, would you be saying the same thing? I'd be curious to know what your opinion of the Catholic "celebrity" priest who was all over the news this morning is...at least his relationship and priestly indiscretion was consensual.

What if this were a Jewish Rabbi? Or a Muslim Cleric? Or a Protestant pastor/minister? What about priests who DO abuse children, and then are later truly and honestly repentant? Should they be restored as a parish priest with children? Just curious if your opinions are consistent on this issue, or if because this Bishop is Orthodox he gets "special" treatment?

I'm not saying he should be excommunicated, defrocked, deposed, sent into exile, or anything of that sort, I'm only saying he should NOT be a diocesan Bishop....in fact I didn't even say NEVER, I just said that it's WAY too soon. I totally get forgiveness and restoration....as I've met priests, one in particular who've had some pretty nasty skeletons in their closet, one who would have likely been a Bishop, had it not been for a single episode in his life. But that jurisdiction decided that even though he was repentant, and in fact was restored to the serving priesthood, he would NEVER be made a Bishop. I've met him, talked to him, and he is a gentle, soft spoken individual, and I have no issue with something he did 10 years before, however he's also been "protected" by the Church in the proper way, that he would never be put into such a position that would might cause him to be put into a similar situation ever again. True forgiveness is also about healing, and if Bishop Dimitri were put into the extremely stressful situation of an acting administrating Bishop once again, how is he expected to heal?

I don't mean to be so firm in my words, but you're throwing around the bible verses as if i'm judging the man, the individual, and I'm not.

 Obviously this man was much beloved, he must have been because he is garnering much support, but in fact, if indeed he's made a diocesan Bishop once again, it's as if the Church would be throwing him right back into the snakepit where he came from. This is not a one time speeding ticket, and even if he is "healed", things of this nature can rise up inside a person once again, especially in stressful situations....I can't think of many vocations that are are stressful as a Bishop of the Church. It's like a recovering alcoholic owning a bar. Sure, Sam could do it on Cheers, but the Church ain't Cheers, and the Bishop isn't Ted Danson. Smiley









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« Reply #98 on: May 11, 2009, 01:31:41 PM »


So when a Bishop does something immoral, lives an immoral life, or has some sickness (like alcoholism) we're not aloud to point these things out because we're "judging" him? That's news to me, and I think many of the saints would be surprised to hear of such a concept as well.

That seems to be the same stance taken in the diocese in Alaska in the OCA. That seems to be the same stance MANY people had with the OCA financial scandal. That seems to me, to be the same stance that "some" in the Church have used for centuries to allow all sorts of corruption to affect the Church. The whole idea of "protecting" the Church is just nonsense. We protect people, individuals, the Church and the heirarchy need no protection.

I'm sorry that you cannot separate the office from the man,
I don't mean to be so firm in my words, but you're throwing around the bible verses as if i'm judging the man, the individual, and I'm not.

Apples and oranges; I'm sure you understand that not all situations are analogous. The bishop has paid the consequences meted out to him by the Antiochian Archdiocese. He did not fight this as did Bp Nikolai. Individuals are being protected so you needn't concern yourself. You most certainly are judging the man and that essentially means that the Lord will use the same measuring stick with you, me and anyone else who now presumes to act as his judge and jury. All people, hierarchy included, need a certain degree of protection because we are all sinners and our motivations are suspect.

The point is this: we're all engaging in gossip. The Antiochian Archdiocese is capable of looking after its own affairs without our needing to parade them all around the world on an internet forum. Some here have expressed their concerns. Fine. They've been duly noted. If, in fact, they are truly concerned then it behooves them to do something about it instead of simply engage in this thead (which, by the way is the easiest and probably most useless thing we can do). They could write to the Metropolitan and express their concerns in that manner (including of course their names and other identifying information since the person they accuse does not have their advantage). Simply participating in this endless thread which essentially leads nowhere other than to arouse, titillate and to an extent scandalize is not really expressing concern. It's engaging in gossip.
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« Reply #99 on: May 11, 2009, 01:53:44 PM »


So when a Bishop does something immoral, lives an immoral life, or has some sickness (like alcoholism) we're not aloud to point these things out because we're "judging" him? That's news to me, and I think many of the saints would be surprised to hear of such a concept as well.

That seems to be the same stance taken in the diocese in Alaska in the OCA. That seems to be the same stance MANY people had with the OCA financial scandal. That seems to me, to be the same stance that "some" in the Church have used for centuries to allow all sorts of corruption to affect the Church. The whole idea of "protecting" the Church is just nonsense. We protect people, individuals, the Church and the heirarchy need no protection.

I'm sorry that you cannot separate the office from the man,
I don't mean to be so firm in my words, but you're throwing around the bible verses as if i'm judging the man, the individual, and I'm not.

Apples and oranges; I'm sure you understand that not all situations are analogous. The bishop has paid the consequences meted out to him by the Antiochian Archdiocese. He did not fight this as did Bp Nikolai. Individuals are being protected so you needn't concern yourself. You most certainly are judging the man and that essentially means that the Lord will use the same measuring stick with you, me and anyone else who now presumes to act as his judge and jury. All people, hierarchy included, need a certain degree of protection because we are all sinners and our motivations are suspect.

The point is this: we're all engaging in gossip. The Antiochian Archdiocese is capable of looking after its own affairs without our needing to parade them all around the world on an internet forum. Some here have expressed their concerns. Fine. They've been duly noted. If, in fact, they are truly concerned then it behooves them to do something about it instead of simply engage in this thead (which, by the way is the easiest and probably most useless thing we can do). They could write to the Metropolitan and express their concerns in that manner (including of course their names and other identifying information since the person they accuse does not have their advantage). Simply participating in this endless thread which essentially leads nowhere other than to arouse, titillate and to an extent scandalize is not really expressing concern. It's engaging in gossip.

Douglas, with all due respect, your reasoning sounds like someone in a co-dependent relationship.
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« Reply #100 on: May 11, 2009, 02:22:49 PM »


So when a Bishop does something immoral, lives an immoral life, or has some sickness (like alcoholism) we're not aloud to point these things out because we're "judging" him? That's news to me, and I think many of the saints would be surprised to hear of such a concept as well.

That seems to be the same stance taken in the diocese in Alaska in the OCA. That seems to be the same stance MANY people had with the OCA financial scandal. That seems to me, to be the same stance that "some" in the Church have used for centuries to allow all sorts of corruption to affect the Church. The whole idea of "protecting" the Church is just nonsense. We protect people, individuals, the Church and the heirarchy need no protection.

I'm sorry that you cannot separate the office from the man,
I don't mean to be so firm in my words, but you're throwing around the bible verses as if i'm judging the man, the individual, and I'm not.

Apples and oranges; I'm sure you understand that not all situations are analogous. The bishop has paid the consequences meted out to him by the Antiochian Archdiocese. He did not fight this as did Bp Nikolai. Individuals are being protected so you needn't concern yourself. You most certainly are judging the man and that essentially means that the Lord will use the same measuring stick with you, me and anyone else who now presumes to act as his judge and jury. All people, hierarchy included, need a certain degree of protection because we are all sinners and our motivations are suspect.

The point is this: we're all engaging in gossip. The Antiochian Archdiocese is capable of looking after its own affairs without our needing to parade them all around the world on an internet forum. Some here have expressed their concerns. Fine. They've been duly noted. If, in fact, they are truly concerned then it behooves them to do something about it instead of simply engage in this thead (which, by the way is the easiest and probably most useless thing we can do). They could write to the Metropolitan and express their concerns in that manner (including of course their names and other identifying information since the person they accuse does not have their advantage). Simply participating in this endless thread which essentially leads nowhere other than to arouse, titillate and to an extent scandalize is not really expressing concern. It's engaging in gossip.

Douglas, with all due respect, your reasoning sounds like someone in a co-dependent relationship.
I'm sorry.  I don't understand the connection you're trying to make here.
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« Reply #101 on: May 11, 2009, 02:25:17 PM »


PetertheAleut,

I think your recent postings to Tamara sound pretty harsh, judgmental and mean. I don't say this to offend you or make you mad, but this is how it sounds to me. Tamara has posted reasonable concerns about +Demitri and how his situation is being handled. From Tamara's posts over the years, it would seem inconsistent with her character to say "she doesn't care" about +Demitri. I also wouldn't assign motives to her. Tamara has always come across as an even tempered, genuine person (in my experience).

I have to agree here.
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« Reply #102 on: May 11, 2009, 02:39:13 PM »


PetertheAleut,

I think your recent postings to Tamara sound pretty harsh, judgmental and mean. I don't say this to offend you or make you mad, but this is how it sounds to me. Tamara has posted reasonable concerns about +Demitri and how his situation is being handled. From Tamara's posts over the years, it would seem inconsistent with her character to say "she doesn't care" about +Demitri. I also wouldn't assign motives to her. Tamara has always come across as an even tempered, genuine person (in my experience).

I have to agree here.
Yes, I am aware that the rhetoric of intellectual scrutiny will sometimes sound harsh, judgmental and mean, but I don't think I've assigned any motives that haven't already manifest themselves quite clearly.

I recognize now that discussion of my rhetorical tactics is starting to derail this thread, so I ask that if anyone else wants to criticize how I've related to Tamara, please send me a PM and we'll discuss your concerns there.
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« Reply #103 on: May 11, 2009, 02:49:30 PM »


So when a Bishop does something immoral, lives an immoral life, or has some sickness (like alcoholism) we're not aloud to point these things out because we're "judging" him? That's news to me, and I think many of the saints would be surprised to hear of such a concept as well.

That seems to be the same stance taken in the diocese in Alaska in the OCA. That seems to be the same stance MANY people had with the OCA financial scandal. That seems to me, to be the same stance that "some" in the Church have used for centuries to allow all sorts of corruption to affect the Church. The whole idea of "protecting" the Church is just nonsense. We protect people, individuals, the Church and the heirarchy need no protection.

I'm sorry that you cannot separate the office from the man,
I don't mean to be so firm in my words, but you're throwing around the bible verses as if i'm judging the man, the individual, and I'm not.

Apples and oranges; I'm sure you understand that not all situations are analogous. The bishop has paid the consequences meted out to him by the Antiochian Archdiocese. He did not fight this as did Bp Nikolai. Individuals are being protected so you needn't concern yourself. You most certainly are judging the man and that essentially means that the Lord will use the same measuring stick with you, me and anyone else who now presumes to act as his judge and jury. All people, hierarchy included, need a certain degree of protection because we are all sinners and our motivations are suspect.

The point is this: we're all engaging in gossip. The Antiochian Archdiocese is capable of looking after its own affairs without our needing to parade them all around the world on an internet forum. Some here have expressed their concerns. Fine. They've been duly noted. If, in fact, they are truly concerned then it behooves them to do something about it instead of simply engage in this thead (which, by the way is the easiest and probably most useless thing we can do). They could write to the Metropolitan and express their concerns in that manner (including of course their names and other identifying information since the person they accuse does not have their advantage). Simply participating in this endless thread which essentially leads nowhere other than to arouse, titillate and to an extent scandalize is not really expressing concern. It's engaging in gossip.

Douglas, with all due respect, your reasoning sounds like someone in a co-dependent relationship.
I'm sorry.  I don't understand the connection you're trying to make here.


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21172.msg319136.html#msg319136
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« Reply #104 on: May 11, 2009, 02:52:13 PM »



Douglas, with all due respect, your reasoning sounds like someone in a co-dependent relationship.

Why are you constantly "sorry"?  Wink

I doubt that your personal statement has been made "with all due respect" but that's for the Lord to determine. I do ask, however, that you confine your comments to the subject of the thread and refrain from making personal remarks. And the issue is not my supposed co-dependency.Thanks.
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« Reply #105 on: May 11, 2009, 02:54:57 PM »

Why are you constantly "sorry"?  Wink
Why are you attributing to Bono Vox something I said? Wink Smiley
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« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2009, 02:55:43 PM »

What he did was severely immoral & he is no longer fit to serve in a clerical role.

Since when is Bono Vox in a position of authority to determine who is and who is not fit to serve in a clerical role?
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« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2009, 02:57:30 PM »

Why are you constantly "sorry"?  Wink
Why are you attributing to Bono Vox something I said? Wink Smiley

Mea culpa.  Undecided Ooops.

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« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2009, 02:59:22 PM »

What he did was severely immoral & he is no longer fit to serve in a clerical role.

Since when is Bono Vox in a position of authority to determine who is and who is not fit to serve in a clerical role?

Well, Bono is in a position of authority to speak on anything he sees fit anywhere in the world, so it stands to reason the Voice of Bono can do that, too.  Tongue

Now, back to your regularly scheduled gossip-mongering.
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« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2009, 02:59:37 PM »

Why are you constantly "sorry"?  Wink
Why are you attributing to Bono Vox something I said? Wink Smiley

Mea culpa.  Undecided Ooops.


Yeah, the quote boxes can be quite confusing sometimes. Wink
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« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2009, 03:04:31 PM »

What he did was severely immoral & he is no longer fit to serve in a clerical role.

Since when is Bono Vox in a position of authority to determine who is and who is not fit to serve in a clerical role?

You don't have to be a genius to know or understand that a convicted sex offender shouldn't be serving in a clerical role. Is there anyone who would argue otherwise?
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« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2009, 03:07:05 PM »

In truth... NONE of us are in a position of authority to speak on these matters that render judgment upon another person; particularly a person who has served as a bishop and been judged by his own archdiocese.

Let me state that I'm not trying (as someone attempted to accuse me) to sweep Bp Demetri's actions under the rug. I applaud the actions of the Antiochian Church in disciplining him. I do not understand, however, this need to engage in endless condemnation of Bp Demetri, particularly in this public forum which leads to nothing but scandal. This condemnation is not for the bishop's salvation. The entire tone is one of condemnation and has tones of self-righteous judgment. And it strikes me as odd that the woman "caught in adultery" was not condemned by our Lord. He simply gave the command to "go and sin no more." Yet we're quite ready to continue to render judgment and exact our pound of flesh. It's wrong and may God forgive me for continuing to take an active part in this thread. And if I have offended anyone here... please forgive me. I'll withdraw from this discussion since I've made my point and to continue to belabor it would be to engage in sin.
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« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2009, 03:20:03 PM »

Please note the date of this quote below, the contents, and where it came from.
I would like to preface this by saying that parishioners who really know me know <understatement>I'm not exactly a Metropolitan Philip apologist</understatement>*cough*

So, I'm going to exercise a right granted to all Americans at birth...that of parsing the statements made by authority figures.

However, I'd like to point out what His Eminence did right - and he did a LOT right in this statement.

1.  He responded within a week openly and honestly, and put it up on the Archdiocesan website for the whole world to see.  (I do hope this is his style anyway and didn't need a lesson from the results RC prelates have had with coverups).

2.  "...most will never seek help until something tragic happens."

He recognizes that this was serious business. 

3.  "I have directed Bishop Demetri to seek professional help."

He ORDERED, not requested.  In other words, he used the authority of his office, and quite properly.

4.  "Once he receives the permission of the civil authorities..."

This one is really important to me.  He acknowledges that all people, including bishops, are to obey the just laws of man.  (The RC-bishop response, to ignore the just laws of man, REALLY puts me off.)

5.  "I have also directed Bishop Demetri not to preach or preside at any liturgical service during the time that he is under treatment, or while this matter is under investigation."

KUDOS!  This tells the common laity and general public that the exercise of a high office is inappropriate while the possessor of same is compromised.

6.  "Those rules apply to all clergy, deacons, priests and bishops..."

Translation:  "Wearing a cassock doesn't get you off the hook.  The rules apply to everyone."

Metropolitan Philip did about everything right in this communication, including not just throwing Bishop Demetri "off the train", which would have been, IMO, too harsh given the conduct involved.  The two other tests are how he handles any necessary cooperation with law enforcement and how he deals with the woman involved if she should show up with her attorney.  I suspect both with be dealt with appropriately.

Thank you, Your Eminence!

The statement the poster was referring to is this one:
http://www.antiochian.org/news/Release20030714statement_on_bishop_demetri.htm
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« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2009, 03:24:02 PM »

In truth... NONE of us are in a position of authority to speak on these matters that render judgment upon another person; particularly a person who has served as a bishop and been judged by his own archdiocese.

Let me state that I'm not trying (as someone attempted to accuse me) to sweep Bp Demetri's actions under the rug. I applaud the actions of the Antiochian Church in disciplining him. I do not understand, however, this need to engage in endless condemnation of Bp Demetri, particularly in this public forum which leads to nothing but scandal. This condemnation is not for the bishop's salvation. The entire tone is one of condemnation and has tones of self-righteous judgment. And it strikes me as odd that the woman "caught in adultery" was not condemned by our Lord. He simply gave the command to "go and sin no more." Yet we're quite ready to continue to render judgment and exact our pound of flesh. It's wrong and may God forgive me for continuing to take an active part in this thread. And if I have offended anyone here... please forgive me. I'll withdraw from this discussion since I've made my point and to continue to belabor it would be to engage in sin.

So if a convicted sex offender gets installed as an axillary bishop, you have no problem with that? No one is in a position to judge? I have two daughters and there is no way I would be under the authority of any kind of sex offender. Are we supposed to check out brains in at the door?

Are we never in a place to "judge"? What if a bishop is a proven child molester? Should we not use our brains and say "no way!"?

I genuinely hope that +Demitri gets healing and finds salvation. This doesn't mean I have to give him a pass and enable bad behavior by supporting him in becoming an axillary bishop (or any other clerical role).
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« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2009, 03:35:44 PM »

I have two daughters and there is no way I would be under the authority of any kind of sex offender.

I dunno Bono Vox. Wouldn't it be safer to have a registered sex offender in office who has publicly repented, publicly been punished and is publicly being scrutinized rather than an unconvicted sex offender who is still off the radar? Just throwing it out there.
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« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2009, 03:52:32 PM »

I have two daughters and there is no way I would be under the authority of any kind of sex offender.

I dunno Bono Vox. Wouldn't it be safer to have a registered sex offender in office who has publicly repented, publicly been punished and is publicly being scrutinized rather than an unconvicted sex offender who is still off the radar? Just throwing it out there.

Regardless, I think this demonstrates that the Orthodox Church needs an open and transparent administrative structure with accountability.  The continued existence of a Byzantine system will only be to our detriment.  The reason while we will never have a Cardinal Law figure is that, simply put, the Orthodox Church is so irrelevant in the US nobody cares. 
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« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2009, 04:01:19 PM »

Again, I have to ask:

1.  How many of us here are taking it as axiomatic that a convicted sex offender should never be restored to the episcopal see he once held and are using this logic only as further evidence that Metropolitan Phillip is a power hungry despot out of touch with reality and the needs of his flock?

2.  Rather than just assume without question that a convicted sex offender should never be restored to his episcopal authority, why aren't we debating the substance of this assumption itself?  IF a bishop convicted of a sexual offense has repented, sought the treatment mandated by his superiors, and demonstrated profound sorrow and the fruit of a life changed by the grace of God, is there not a place for him in the episcopal see he once vacated?  I have no opinion on the matter myself, since I've seen some cogent arguments on both sides.  All I'm saying is that I would like to see more effort devoted to this aspect of the debate, rather than read statements like "any fool can see that a convicted sex offender isn't qualified to be a bishop."
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« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2009, 04:15:59 PM »

In truth... NONE of us are in a position of authority to speak on these matters that render judgment upon another person; particularly a person who has served as a bishop and been judged by his own archdiocese.

We are not judging the man. Bishop DEMETRI has already been "retired" from his post here in North America and that should continue.  The issue is whether he should be allowed to be reinstated and his punishment abrogated.

Granted, we should be obedient to our priests and hierarchs, but there are instances in our history where obedience was not called for such as when Nestorius was claiming that Mary is Christotokos vs.Theotokos or when a number of bishops signed the Union of Florence.  The laity went nuts and called for their heads.  Is this as sinister an action as the propagation of these heresies?  No. But we must remember that Orthodox polity is ultimately conciliar comprising the elements of hierarchs, secular clergy and laity.  So thus, we do have the responsibility.

I'm sure no one is interested in my opinion though I have no vested interest in how this turns out.  But I agree that Bishop DEMETRI should not be given any ecclesial post and should remain in retirement.
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« Reply #118 on: May 11, 2009, 04:20:55 PM »

I'm going to stay away from positing an opinion, because I've met Bp. +DEMETRI, and because I know people who are close personal friends from before he was ordained.

However, a question that came up in a discussion (not here) about sexual offender registries (context: working with the youth), which I will now re-word for this discussion: does being on the sexual offender registry automatically disqualify someone from the episcopacy?  Or must consideration be given to the offense?  For example (easiest one I can think of), in most states an eighteen year-old who has intercourse (even with consent) with a sixteen year-old lands on the same registry as a serial rapist.
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« Reply #119 on: May 11, 2009, 04:21:39 PM »

All I'm saying is that I would like to see more effort devoted to this aspect of the debate, rather than read statements like "any fool can see that a convicted sex offender isn't qualified to be a bishop."

Ok, fair enough.  As a corollary I would bring up the situation when President Clinton was impeached and his sex life was brought before the entire American public.  Many thought that a private matter was not subject to public scrutiny because one's sex life does not erode one's leadership potential.  But a great deal of the American public was interested in this matter because a great many, including myself, believe that one who is so controlled by his passions or lusts is a person who is not qualified to be in any leadership positions.  Eros is described by the Greeks as the killer.  It is an affliction, a disease that can lead to destruction if it is not coralled and kept in check.  Thus, in Bishop DEMETRI's case, we are applying the same standard--one who is not able to check his carnal desires, regardless of whether it was done under the influence of alcohol or not (in vino veritas?), is not necessarily level headed enough to lead, which is the responsibility of a bishop.

{Edit - fixed quote box - Cleveland, GM}
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« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2009, 05:24:58 PM »


That isn't true in Florida,,We have the "Romeo and Juliet" Law which understands the age difference and obvious maturity differences in adolescence. The norm for it to be abuse is five years difference...
I have heard from a friend that there are allegations about Bishop Khoury from other sources.
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« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2009, 05:38:50 PM »

I have heard from a friend that there are allegations about Bishop Khoury from other sources.

So in other words, more gossip.
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« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2009, 05:42:26 PM »

Not gossip but I won't post them as they cannot be substantiated..that would be wrong..
I think he is in enough trouble and will be monitored very carefully by the State of Florida
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« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2009, 05:42:53 PM »

I have heard from a friend that there are allegations about Bishop Khoury from other sources.

So in other words, more gossip.

I have a friend who has some oceanfront property in Arizona for sale.. how about that bridge in brooklyn as well?
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« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2009, 05:44:25 PM »

or a seminary in Pennsylvania or Alaska? or a Weeping Ikon in Blanco,Texas?
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« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2009, 05:50:58 PM »

Again, I have to ask:

1.  How many of us here are taking it as axiomatic that a convicted sex offender should never be restored to the episcopal see he once held and are using this logic only as further evidence that Metropolitan Phillip is a power hungry despot out of touch with reality and the needs of his flock?

2.  Rather than just assume without question that a convicted sex offender should never be restored to his episcopal authority, why aren't we debating the substance of this assumption itself?  IF a bishop convicted of a sexual offense has repented, sought the treatment mandated by his superiors, and demonstrated profound sorrow and the fruit of a life changed by the grace of God, is there not a place for him in the episcopal see he once vacated?  I have no opinion on the matter myself, since I've seen some cogent arguments on both sides.  All I'm saying is that I would like to see more effort devoted to this aspect of the debate, rather than read statements like "any fool can see that a convicted sex offender isn't qualified to be a bishop."

Fair enough. How about the following justification?

"Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. " (My highlights)
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« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2009, 05:54:11 PM »

I have a friend who has some oceanfront property in Arizona for sale.

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« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2009, 05:56:10 PM »

or a seminary in Pennsylvania or Alaska? or a Weeping Ikon in Blanco,Texas?

I dont' get it?  Are you saying that the seminaries in Alaska and Pennsylvania are ficticious? 
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« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2009, 05:57:49 PM »

I have a friend who has some oceanfront property in Arizona for sale.

angel


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« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2009, 06:14:21 PM »

Again, I have to ask:

1.  How many of us here are taking it as axiomatic that a convicted sex offender should never be restored to the episcopal see he once held and are using this logic only as further evidence that Metropolitan Phillip is a power hungry despot out of touch with reality and the needs of his flock?

2.  Rather than just assume without question that a convicted sex offender should never be restored to his episcopal authority, why aren't we debating the substance of this assumption itself?  IF a bishop convicted of a sexual offense has repented, sought the treatment mandated by his superiors, and demonstrated profound sorrow and the fruit of a life changed by the grace of God, is there not a place for him in the episcopal see he once vacated?  I have no opinion on the matter myself, since I've seen some cogent arguments on both sides.  All I'm saying is that I would like to see more effort devoted to this aspect of the debate, rather than read statements like "any fool can see that a convicted sex offender isn't qualified to be a bishop."

Fair enough. How about the following justification?

"Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. " (My highlights)
But would you apply the above passage from St. Paul's first pastoral epistle to Timothy in exactly the same way to every situation?  I'm sure you can draw from this passage very well-founded principles to justify your argument that Bishop Demetri should not be restored to the episcopacy, but I'm not sure this apostolic rule can be used as is without an understanding of the merits of each specific case for/against one's ordination/restoration to a priestly office.  Again, what of the possibility that Bishop Demetri has repented of his sin and shown the fruits of a repentant life?  Is he still disqualified from episcopal ministry by the sins of his past life?  Or is there another way we can look at this?  Let's say he may not be disqualified, but a return to the episcopal office, with all its stresses and temptations, so soon after his fall may not be the best thing for his salvation?  If this is so, is it any of our business to presume the qualification to make this decision on an internet discussion board?
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« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2009, 08:11:49 PM »

Regardless, I think this demonstrates that the Orthodox Church needs an open and transparent administrative structure with accountability. 
Isn't that precisely what Metropolitan Philip did by his actions and statement within a week of the incident involving Bishop Demetrios?:
http://www.antiochian.org/news/Release20030714statement_on_bishop_demetri.htm

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« Reply #131 on: May 11, 2009, 10:29:20 PM »

I have two daughters and there is no way I would be under the authority of any kind of sex offender.

I dunno Bono Vox. Wouldn't it be safer to have a registered sex offender in office who has publicly repented, publicly been punished and is publicly being scrutinized rather than an unconvicted sex offender who is still off the radar? Just throwing it out there.

It would be safer having NO sex offender in office period. Your argument is like saying " Wouldn't it be safer to have a "registered" child molester in office who has publicly repented, publicly been punished and is publicly being scrutinized rather than an unconvinced child molester who is still off the radar?" 

Who in their right mind would want a sex offender as bishop? Most of the laity (as well as anyone in their right mind) would reject such a notion. I would not feel safe bringing my daughters to a church that had clerics who were sex offenders.
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« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2009, 01:27:54 AM »

Who in their right mind would want a sex offender as bishop?
So, those who have voiced their disagreement with you are not in their right mind?  You, my friend, just dismissed the insights of a good number of us posters with this veiled appeal to ad hominem.

Most of the laity (as well as anyone in their right mind) would reject such a notion.
And why is this axiomatic (i.e., a given not needing proof and foundational to your logic)?

I would not feel safe bringing my daughters to a church that had clerics who were sex offenders.
You're free and certainly justified to feel this fear, but please don't expect everyone here to share your fear and think us crazy who don't.
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« Reply #133 on: May 12, 2009, 01:32:16 AM »

I totally Agree !00% no sex offenders .....What Moral value can he teach..
Granted To Forgive Is Divine..But For Him To Serve Again as Bishop,
a spiritual Leader No absolutely no..
He distorted ,Profaned the Holy Image [Icon] of God the Father that he's suppose to Reflect...
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« Reply #134 on: May 12, 2009, 10:14:46 AM »

Though the story wasn't clear about what exactly did bishop Dimitri do, I am shocked about the fact that in the United States there are open records with private data and links on the internet and we can just click and see who was an offender and who wasn't.

I mean this poor guy who obviously realized that celibacy was something more that he could stand, is internationaly exposed for something he did in privacy. It reminds me of the story of Kain and the mark on his forehead

If we have to keep the letter of the law then Tamara is absolutely right. A bishop has to be a good example to everyone. And also pure so that he may serve as a priest.

On the other hand human falls happen, and his being a man without a spouse obviously lead him to getting drunk to overcome his cross and the rest follow.

ANother point that puzzles me is what do we mean by "offender", do we mean rapist, someone who violently attacked a woman? In a few words someone dangerous? Because if he fell once or twice in a lifetime then we should cover his fall and first of all his victim should try to cover him up (unless he was really dangerous).

Because another thing which we consider as exageration in Europe and we are even laughing at ironically, is how easily you can all of a sudden be characterized in the USA as an offender becasue you told a woman, "gee you look sexy today" or even touched her as a natural expression of erotic interest interest or even desire.

This touch-me-not hysteria gives a lot of room for misinterpetation of what sexual offences are. And before one condemns someone it would be better if we knew how badly did he really misbehave or he was simply a victim of his human nature as a man and of the "sexual harassment" hysteria.
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« Reply #135 on: May 12, 2009, 10:45:08 AM »

Because another thing which we consider as exageration in Europe and we are even laughing at ironically, is how easily you can all of a sudden be characterized in the USA as an offender becasue you told a woman, "gee you look sexy today" or even touched her as a natural expression of erotic interest interest or even desire.

This touch-me-not hysteria gives a lot of room for misinterpetation of what sexual offences are. And before one condemns someone it would be better if we knew how badly did he really misbehave or he was simply a victim of his human nature as a man and of the "sexual harassment" hysteria.
I actually agree with what you say. Does anyone know if the offense was violent? And to what extent sexual?
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« Reply #136 on: May 12, 2009, 11:09:26 AM »

Who in their right mind would want a sex offender as bishop?
So, those who have voiced their disagreement with you are not in their right mind?  You, my friend, just dismissed the insights of a good number of us posters with this veiled appeal to ad hominem.

Most of the laity (as well as anyone in their right mind) would reject such a notion.
And why is this axiomatic (i.e., a given not needing proof and foundational to your logic)?

I would not feel safe bringing my daughters to a church that had clerics who were sex offenders.
You're free and certainly justified to feel this fear, but please don't expect everyone here to share your fear and think us crazy who don't.

How many here have children?  Daughters?
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« Reply #137 on: May 12, 2009, 11:16:48 AM »

Though the story wasn't clear about what exactly did bishop Dimitri do, I am shocked about the fact that in the United States there are open records with private data and links on the internet and we can just click and see who was an offender and who wasn't.

I mean this poor guy who obviously realized that celibacy was something more that he could stand, is internationaly exposed for something he did in privacy.

A casino is not a private place.  And when was arrested, he identified himself as an Orthodox bishop. Gee, didn't that do us proud. Roll Eyes

Quote
It reminds me of the story of Kain and the mark on his forehead

If we have to keep the letter of the law then Tamara is absolutely right. A bishop has to be a good example to everyone. And also pure so that he may serve as a priest.

On the other hand human falls happen, and his being a man without a spouse obviously lead him to getting drunk to overcome his cross and the rest follow.

ANother point that puzzles me is what do we mean by "offender", do we mean rapist, someone who violently attacked a woman? In a few words someone dangerous? Because if he fell once or twice in a lifetime then we should cover his fall and first of all his victim should try to cover him up (unless he was really dangerous).

Because another thing which we consider as exageration in Europe and we are even laughing at ironically,

I've been to Europe, and even Greece.  Makes Las Vegas look tame. Laughing?  Good to hear you're enjoying yourself as Rome burns.

Quote
is how easily you can all of a sudden be characterized in the USA as an offender becasue you told a woman, "gee you look sexy today" or even touched her as a natural expression of erotic interest interest or even desire.

Well, when another man touches your wife as a natural expression of erotic interest or even desire, you get back to us, will you?

Quote
This touch-me-not hysteria gives a lot of room for misinterpetation of what sexual offences are. And before one condemns someone it would be better if we knew how badly did he really misbehave or he was simply a victim of his human nature as a man and of the "sexual harassment" hysteria.

No, we don't need to retry this over and overn and over again.
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« Reply #138 on: May 12, 2009, 11:19:33 AM »

I actually agree with what you say. Does anyone know if the offense was violent? And to what extent sexual?

According to prosecutors, casino security cut him off from drinking because he was being disorderly, and then he allegedly squeezed the breast of a woman who was playing a slot machine.
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« Reply #139 on: May 12, 2009, 11:24:40 AM »

There was an organisation some 30 years ago which was dedicated to the creative alteration of advertising billboards. One of their more famous efforts was this one, advertising a certain make of Italian car:

http://www.jillposener.com/photodetail.cfm?file=FiatAd.jpg&category=graffiti&CFID=9051084&CFTOKEN=18274306

Food for thought when we're talking about personal offences against women.
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« Reply #140 on: May 12, 2009, 11:35:21 AM »

Though the story wasn't clear about what exactly did bishop Dimitri do, I am shocked about the fact that in the United States there are open records with private data and links on the internet and we can just click and see who was an offender and who wasn't.

This has become public policy over the years in part because there are a lot of sexual offenders in this country who after being released from prison, moved in to neighborhoods with children, and then soon after were back to their "old ways" as it were. Communities complained that had they known their new neighbor formerly raped 3 people, or had molested children, they would have been MUCH more careful...hence over the years laws have been passed, and for the most part they are good laws. Not perfect, but it's for the protection of the innocent, particularly children such laws exist here.

Quote

ANother point that puzzles me is what do we mean by "offender", do we mean rapist, someone who violently attacked a woman? In a few words someone dangerous? Because if he fell once or twice in a lifetime then we should cover his fall and first of all his victim should try to cover him up (unless he was really dangerous).

I'm sure if you google, you can find the sordid details of what he did. And he plead guilty to his actions. i'm sure the U.S. government has a website explaining the different forms of sexual misconduct which I don't think it's necessary to get into here. Needless to say, he did much more than call someone "sexy".....

Is he "dangerous" to human lives? probably not. But then neither are priests who molest children or altar boys either.

Here's a link you can check out so you can get all the details and decide for yourself as opposed to listening to all of our opinions on the issue.


http://pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Convicted&id=14&sType=Persons
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« Reply #141 on: May 12, 2009, 01:17:49 PM »

Guys, I know that you are going to attack me now but I don't believe this is all happening just because the man was drunken and he grabbed a woman's breast in a casino. (at least this was his crime according to pokrov) I mean couldn't she just leave in laughs or slap him on the face and go? Unless he really attacked her.

I know it is a cultural thing but in Greece she would left in laughs and tell the whole story to her friends or she would have slapped him on the face and go, or call her husband if he was really out of control. Or maybe she wouldn't even say anything cause she wouldn't want her husband punch the guy on the face. And that would be the end of the story.

Because now, a drunken guy, no mater a bishop, misbehaved and all over the universe we know it and the authorites expose him. Frankly this reminds me a bit of Orwell.

The serious part

1. This is why priests should wear their rasa also outside the church, for self protection from misconduct.

a) What was a bishop doing in a casino?
b) Why was he drunk?

Then grabbing a woman's breast follows and it is no surpising.

Sorry but I cannot consider this misbehaviour as heavy as sexually abuse of children or women or rape or using power to exploit sexually a worker etc.

Indeed the guy has problems with his celibacy and he would like to be in the casino like anybody else(though I don't think gambling suits a christian and even more so a bishop) or have a woman (that is normal). He realy needs help because obviouly he cannot stand up to the life he had chosen to live.

And the question and important issue is: what happens with people who became bishops or archimandrites and they fight with sthe ame urges like all of us? I mean it is a long life to live and some can meet those standrds while other don't and they fall.

If however bishop Dimitri was a good person in general and a good bishop I would be ready to forgive him, understanding human nature. The fact that he was publicly exposed makes it a problem. Because EVERYONE now knows what he did or the condition he was arrested. Christ said let the one without sin throw the first stone.

Another factor is if his misbeahviour was just an occasional  insident or he is systematically visiting casinos, getting drunk and look for woman's company dressed in civil cloths. Because that makes a LOT of difference.

Someone said something about Greece and someone else about my wife

Well true, in Greece and the mediteranean we are much more tolerant with gestures and verbal teasings (you should be a woman tourist in Spain), even if foul language is used. We consider something as offensive depending on the intentions and the overall attitude. I guess most women are flattered if they are teased in the street.
A taxi driver once shouted to my wife from his open window and she told me when at home and we were laughing. Since then whenever I want to tease and cheer her up her I pretend to be a.. taxi driver.

Yes it is a shame for what the bishop did but it is a shame for HIM not for us. It is not easy for me to exterminate a human being. Unless he is introducing heresies. To me heresy is the deadline. At least he was a MAN (and not a gay abusing acolytes in the altar) and he did what he did in a casino and not in his church office. And from what I see he wrote important books such as "A cloud of Witnesses" and others. NO WANDER the devil set him a trap and he fell into it. We all have a doctor Jeckyl and MR Hyde within us even st Paul did.

I cannot say yes or no to his coming back. I am confused. But I 'd rather say yes.
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« Reply #142 on: May 12, 2009, 06:17:24 PM »

Again, I have to ask:

1.  How many of us here are taking it as axiomatic that a convicted sex offender should never be restored to the episcopal see he once held and are using this logic only as further evidence that Metropolitan Phillip is a power hungry despot out of touch with reality and the needs of his flock?

2.  Rather than just assume without question that a convicted sex offender should never be restored to his episcopal authority, why aren't we debating the substance of this assumption itself?  IF a bishop convicted of a sexual offense has repented, sought the treatment mandated by his superiors, and demonstrated profound sorrow and the fruit of a life changed by the grace of God, is there not a place for him in the episcopal see he once vacated?  I have no opinion on the matter myself, since I've seen some cogent arguments on both sides.  All I'm saying is that I would like to see more effort devoted to this aspect of the debate, rather than read statements like "any fool can see that a convicted sex offender isn't qualified to be a bishop."

Fair enough. How about the following justification?

"Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. " (My highlights)
But would you apply the above passage from St. Paul's first pastoral epistle to Timothy in exactly the same way to every situation?  I'm sure you can draw from this passage very well-founded principles to justify your argument that Bishop Demetri should not be restored to the episcopacy, but I'm not sure this apostolic rule can be used as is without an understanding of the merits of each specific case for/against one's ordination/restoration to a priestly office.  Again, what of the possibility that Bishop Demetri has repented of his sin and shown the fruits of a repentant life?  Is he still disqualified from episcopal ministry by the sins of his past life?  Or is there another way we can look at this?  Let's say he may not be disqualified, but a return to the episcopal office, with all its stresses and temptations, so soon after his fall may not be the best thing for his salvation?  If this is so, is it any of our business to presume the qualification to make this decision on an internet discussion board?

There is a difference, I think, between making a judgment and assessing a situation, and between making a decision and expressing an opinion. I would agree that making a pastoral decision in this case is beyond most of us. However, the laity may certainly express an opinion on the worthiness of a bishop not only before he is consecrated but during and after his episcopacy. In order to discharge their responsibilities as members of he Body, everyone should assess any given situation and, if desired, express an opinion.

In this instance, it does not take a rocket scientist to find that Bishop Demetri is not above reproach (the courts convicted him), temperate or self-controlled (court records), respectable (such offenders are usually not, at least in the United States and Canada), etc. He has plainly come short of most of the job description requirements that are set forth in the Holy Bible.

I am probably a greater sinner than Bishop Demetri. He is probably a better, more learned and genial fellow than I. So, I am not judging him as a person; I am merely saying that he has disqualified himself from the job. And, I am recommending to the powers that be--not that they will listen to me--that they should depose him. Finally, by expressing my opinions publicly I may be serving a purpose in the interest of the greater good.
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« Reply #143 on: May 12, 2009, 07:32:38 PM »

I think he has been punished enough..I am certain he will be monitored as I have said as Florida is very strict ...remember;this is the home of Polly Klass.
My biggest question is why is Metropolitan Phillip doing this now. Is Bishop Khoury going to be an auxillary Bishop? if so ...where? Is he living alone? Isolation is not good. He needs support. Where will he attend the Divine Liturgy?
I cannot believe that Met.Phillip would not begin to think that there would be some concern about this.
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« Reply #144 on: May 12, 2009, 07:46:35 PM »

I think he has been punished enough..I am certain he will be monitored as I have said as Florida is very strict ...remember;this is the home of Polly Klass.
My biggest question is why is Metropolitan Phillip doing this now. Is Bishop Khoury going to be an auxillary Bishop? if so ...where? Is he living alone? Isolation is not good. He needs support. Where will he attend the Divine Liturgy?
I cannot believe that Met.Phillip would not begin to think that there would be some concern about this.

Not to be a nitpicker, but Polly Klaas lived in California. 
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« Reply #145 on: May 12, 2009, 08:59:06 PM »

you are correct...YIKES...I made a mistake...I will make 25 metanoia's... There is a law named after a child victim here in Florida but I forget her name.. .The issue is that they are very careful here..Bishop Khoury will have to report every move especially if he leaves Florida or changes residences. I said this before but there is a park near my house and on the sign listing the hours , no alcohol etc it ends saying :"No registered sexual offender may enter this park".
John Walsh whose son was murdered by a predator is in Florida and he is very active in the criminal justice community.
Has anybody found out why this is happening now?
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« Reply #146 on: May 12, 2009, 09:21:35 PM »

Can you imagine what having a convicted sex offender as an auxilary bishop would do to the evangelistic efforts of the church? I do not see any benifits on any level to allow a convicted sex offender in any type of a clerical role. This would be devastating to women who have been victims of sexual harassment. I know fathers like me who have daughters would likely be appaled. It would not be good for people looking into orthodoxy; this would clearly be a hinderance to many.

Are there not monks in the monasteries or celebate priests who would be better qualified to serve as auxilary bishop?

For those of you who think it is alright to have convicted sex offenders in clerical offices like auxilary bishop, would you not feel embarassed or ashamed to have to explain this to others? 


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« Reply #147 on: May 12, 2009, 09:59:01 PM »



For those of you who think it is alright to have convicted sex offenders in clerical offices like auxilary bishop, would you not feel embarassed or ashamed to have to explain this to others? 




No. Nor would I be ashamed of being a friend of King David's... a murderer and adulterer. And quite frankly, I'm growing weary of your suggestions that anyone who dares to think differently than yourself is somehow less of a moral person.. less a Christian. If you would somehow confine your thoughts to the discussion at hand and stop making aspersions on those of us who don't happen to share your views, I believe you would find that you are more in line with the rules of conduct. I'm new here, but not new enough that I don't recognize a violation of the rules of conduct. As I mentioned earlier, I will no longer participate in this discussion (which has become a bit of tar and feathering in my opinion) but I won't stand by idly while these violations occur.

My suggestion is that those who feel such a concern should register such with the appropriate ecclesiatical authority (Met. Philip) and PRAY for Bp Demetri.
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« Reply #148 on: May 12, 2009, 11:28:47 PM »



For those of you who think it is alright to have convicted sex offenders in clerical offices like auxilary bishop, would you not feel embarassed or ashamed to have to explain this to others? 




No. Nor would I be ashamed of being a friend of King David's... a murderer and adulterer. And quite frankly, I'm growing weary of your suggestions that anyone who dares to think differently than yourself is somehow less of a moral person.. less a Christian. If you would somehow confine your thoughts to the discussion at hand and stop making aspersions on those of us who don't happen to share your views, I believe you would find that you are more in line with the rules of conduct. I'm new here, but not new enough that I don't recognize a violation of the rules of conduct. As I mentioned earlier, I will no longer participate in this discussion (which has become a bit of tar and feathering in my opinion) but I won't stand by idly while these violations occur.

My suggestion is that those who feel such a concern should register such with the appropriate ecclesiatical authority (Met. Philip) and PRAY for Bp Demetri.

I haven't stated or suggested those who think differently than me are less moral or Christian, nor have I violated any rules of conduct. Where have I said such a thing? You are misrepresenting me. My thoughts are to the discussion at hand and they are  100% valid. This is a deep concern I have as an Orthodox christian, someone who has majored in the Human Services and a father of two girls. My concerns and opinions are no different than the concerns many Roman Catholics had during their scandals.

The points I have made have merit and the issue at hand posses a real and significant concern for many Orthodox parents like myself. I am also deeply troubled by the potential obstical this could become in evangelizing. This could repel people from the faith and hurt the witness of the church (as bishops are icons of Christ). Americans will not put up with this. I would feel very embarrassed having to explain to people that my bishop (or any reigning bishop for that manner) is a convicted sex offender. It is not unreasonable to expect bishops to live holy lives; they are held to a different standard than the laity (which it seems some do not believe or understand). I have read the scriptures, philokalia and have had many conversations about these types of issues with my priest during the OCA scandal. There is nothing wrong with me stating my opinion that those who support such men are enabling them. This is a valid argument and is not meant to be insulting, but must be stated.

If +Demitri is put in place as an auxilary bishop, I will write a letter to +PHILIP.
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« Reply #149 on: May 13, 2009, 12:30:43 AM »

If he is made an auxiliary you will....Huh Write now. Be pro-active. Show the courage of your convictions.  Wink
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« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2009, 12:34:06 AM »

I for one understand completely what you are saying, Bono Vox. I always understood  that bishops, according to New Testament specifications, were to live holy and blameless lives. Do we Orthodox not care in the least what Scripture says? When I was growing up, I was taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ,and if we are to be worthy of that calling, then we have to make sure our lives are as pure as possible-not only out of respect for one another and to be a witness to those around us, but out of love for Christ Himself. What bride wants to be anything but pure for her groom? I know there are people watching our lives and if they see we are living lives of holiness and are above reproach, it will speak loudly to them of the strength of the Orthodox Church, but if they see nothing but carnality, they will rightly be turned off and feel we Orthodox have nothing better to offer this troubled world than the other mainstream churches. There are troubled souls within our own midst whose faith is already shaky and for whom, such behaviour will further weaken their faith and trust. Things like this really cause me also to doubt even more...How could a bishop even consider going into a casino? I don't understand at all...I can't see that as a place for any sincere christian, much less a bishop. I find this so confusing and hurtful.  I do pray that he will turn to God and be truly spiritually regenerated. Lord have mercy on all of us.
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« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2009, 12:47:50 AM »

I for one understand completely what you are saying, Bono Vox. I always understood  that bishops, according to New Testament specifications, were to live holy and blameless lives. Do we Orthodox not care in the least what Scripture says? When I was growing up, I was taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ,and if we are to be worthy of that calling, then we have to make sure our lives are as pure as possible-not only out of respect for one another and to be a witness to those around us, but out of love for Christ Himself. What bride wants to be anything but pure for her groom? I know there are people watching our lives and if they see we are living lives of holiness and are above reproach, it will speak loudly to them of the strength of the Orthodox Church, but if they see nothing but carnality, they will rightly be turned off and feel we Orthodox have nothing better to offer this troubled world than the other mainstream churches. There are troubled souls within our own midst whose faith is already shaky and for whom, such behaviour will further weaken their faith and trust. Things like this really cause me also to doubt even more...How could a bishop even consider going into a casino? I don't understand at all...I can't see that as a place for any sincere christian, much less a bishop. I find this so confusing and hurtful.  I do pray that he will turn to God and be truly spiritually regenerated. Lord have mercy on all of us.


It seems to me some orthodox here don't  care what Holy Scripture says ,on how a Bishop is suppose to conduct himself..Thats how i read it...
Also the religious leader thats bringing him back....God save us from these type of religious leaders...
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« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2009, 01:28:21 AM »

Rough translation:

(I'm a little uncertain as to the last part; I can't recall what "compartio" and "consejos" are off the top of my head).


" compartio" means "shared", and " consejos" means "advice"  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #153 on: May 13, 2009, 01:46:30 AM »

I wonder what Elder Cleopa of Romania would have said on the matter?
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« Reply #154 on: May 13, 2009, 01:54:51 AM »

I for one understand completely what you are saying, Bono Vox. I always understood  that bishops, according to New Testament specifications, were to live holy and blameless lives. Do we Orthodox not care in the least what Scripture says? When I was growing up, I was taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ,and if we are to be worthy of that calling, then we have to make sure our lives are as pure as possible-not only out of respect for one another and to be a witness to those around us, but out of love for Christ Himself. What bride wants to be anything but pure for her groom? I know there are people watching our lives and if they see we are living lives of holiness and are above reproach, it will speak loudly to them of the strength of the Orthodox Church, but if they see nothing but carnality, they will rightly be turned off and feel we Orthodox have nothing better to offer this troubled world than the other mainstream churches. There are troubled souls within our own midst whose faith is already shaky and for whom, such behaviour will further weaken their faith and trust. Things like this really cause me also to doubt even more...How could a bishop even consider going into a casino? I don't understand at all...I can't see that as a place for any sincere christian, much less a bishop. I find this so confusing and hurtful.  I do pray that he will turn to God and be truly spiritually regenerated. Lord have mercy on all of us.


It seems to me some orthodox here don't  care what Holy Scripture says ,on how a Bishop is suppose to conduct himself..Thats how i read it...
Actually, stashko, it seems to me that many here actually think it important to also pay attention to the Scriptural injunction to restore our fallen brother if he has repented.  It's somewhere in 2 Corinthians.  So maybe you shouldn't be so quick to say that some here don't care what Holy Scripture says.

How this applies to restoring Bishop Demetri to the duties of his bishopric, however, is still up for debate.
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« Reply #155 on: May 13, 2009, 02:33:53 AM »

I for one understand completely what you are saying, Bono Vox. I always understood  that bishops, according to New Testament specifications, were to live holy and blameless lives. Do we Orthodox not care in the least what Scripture says? When I was growing up, I was taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ,and if we are to be worthy of that calling, then we have to make sure our lives are as pure as possible-not only out of respect for one another and to be a witness to those around us, but out of love for Christ Himself. What bride wants to be anything but pure for her groom? I know there are people watching our lives and if they see we are living lives of holiness and are above reproach, it will speak loudly to them of the strength of the Orthodox Church, but if they see nothing but carnality, they will rightly be turned off and feel we Orthodox have nothing better to offer this troubled world than the other mainstream churches. There are troubled souls within our own midst whose faith is already shaky and for whom, such behaviour will further weaken their faith and trust. Things like this really cause me also to doubt even more...How could a bishop even consider going into a casino? I don't understand at all...I can't see that as a place for any sincere christian, much less a bishop. I find this so confusing and hurtful.  I do pray that he will turn to God and be truly spiritually regenerated. Lord have mercy on all of us.


It seems to me some orthodox here don't  care what Holy Scripture says ,on how a Bishop is suppose to conduct himself..Thats how i read it...
Actually, stashko, it seems to me that many here actually think it important to also pay attention to the Scriptural injunction to restore our fallen brother if he has repented.  It's somewhere in 2 Corinthians.  So maybe you shouldn't be so quick to say that some here don't care what Holy Scripture says.

How this applies to restoring Bishop Demetri to the duties of his bishopric, however, is still up for debate.

I don't think those on either side of the debate disagree with restoring a fallen brother. Anyone can fall and as Christians, we must genuinely want to see everyone restored. I'm sure we all, including myself, wish this for Bishop Demitri. The question is should he be restored by assuming a clerical role. I'm sure most of the faithful would shout a resounding no.

I have repeatedly brought up the issue of the effect this would have on women in his dioceses who have been victims of sexual abuse, harassment or discrimination. I have not heard a response on this from anyone. Would it be fair to these women to have a sexual offender as a bishop? The trauma and shame these women experience from abuse is deep. If their bishop is a convicted sex offender, how is that going to interfere with their healing and spiritual development? If the bishop is an icon of Christ, how could he possibly distort these poor woman's view of God because of his previous actions (even if he did repent of it?). Is it really worth it to have such a man in power? Could he not be restored in a monastery? Where do we draw the line?
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« Reply #156 on: May 13, 2009, 02:52:11 AM »

I for one understand completely what you are saying, Bono Vox. I always understood  that bishops, according to New Testament specifications, were to live holy and blameless lives. Do we Orthodox not care in the least what Scripture says? When I was growing up, I was taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ,and if we are to be worthy of that calling, then we have to make sure our lives are as pure as possible-not only out of respect for one another and to be a witness to those around us, but out of love for Christ Himself. What bride wants to be anything but pure for her groom? I know there are people watching our lives and if they see we are living lives of holiness and are above reproach, it will speak loudly to them of the strength of the Orthodox Church, but if they see nothing but carnality, they will rightly be turned off and feel we Orthodox have nothing better to offer this troubled world than the other mainstream churches. There are troubled souls within our own midst whose faith is already shaky and for whom, such behaviour will further weaken their faith and trust. Things like this really cause me also to doubt even more...How could a bishop even consider going into a casino? I don't understand at all...I can't see that as a place for any sincere christian, much less a bishop. I find this so confusing and hurtful.  I do pray that he will turn to God and be truly spiritually regenerated. Lord have mercy on all of us.


It seems to me some orthodox here don't  care what Holy Scripture says ,on how a Bishop is suppose to conduct himself..Thats how i read it...
Actually, stashko, it seems to me that many here actually think it important to also pay attention to the Scriptural injunction to restore our fallen brother if he has repented.  It's somewhere in 2 Corinthians.  So maybe you shouldn't be so quick to say that some here don't care what Holy Scripture says.

How this applies to restoring Bishop Demetri to the duties of his bishopric, however, is still up for debate.


There's no excuse for a Shepherd,a Religious Leader ,he knows whats expected of him from Christ our lord....For them there is no strike one two and three and your out..Peoples salvation depends on there Guidance,to  teach,leed and guide one on the correct path to salvation...
Peoples Faith can be shaken to its foundation and one can lose his or hers Faith ......
Also the Metropolitan that wants to reinstate him should be retired sent to a monastery..Hes not a Good Leader either....
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« Reply #157 on: May 13, 2009, 07:48:22 AM »

I sure hope other clerics are being considered. Lord,have mercy.
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« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2009, 08:27:58 AM »

I have read this thread with some amusement with all the bantering back and forth. While Metropolitan Philip may want to consider for any number of reasons the reinstatement of Bishop Demetri, most seem to be missing an important business issue that would probably prohibit his return to active service in the archdiocese. That being the liability insurance for the archdiocese. Once the insurer finds out that a convicted and registered sex-offender is in active employ of the archdiocese one of two things will happen. Either the premiums for the archdiocese will be raised astronomically or they will outright cancel the policy and with that on record will probably make the obtaining of such insurance nearly impossible to get. Insurance companies are not likely to take any chances in this area.
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« Reply #159 on: May 13, 2009, 08:30:57 AM »

That is a good point Friar Tuck...I never thought of that...and it does always come down to money doesn't it?
I just wish Met.Phillip would explain why he is doing this now...
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« Reply #160 on: May 13, 2009, 08:37:32 AM »

That is a good point Friar Tuck...I never thought of that...and it does always come down to money doesn't it?
I just wish Met.Phillip would explain why he is doing this now...
Ever play chess or poker?  Wink Roll Eyes
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« Reply #161 on: May 13, 2009, 09:33:37 AM »


 Would it be fair to these women to have a sexual offender as a bishop?

Was it fair for Israel to have an adulterer and murderer for a King? Then again... we have Psalm 51, don't we: true repentance... a heart like that of God's.

"If" the bishop (or any bishop) has sinned and "if" the bishop truly repents, then "is" he a sexual offender? Perhaps in the eyes of the law but "is" he an offender OR "was" he an offender in God's eyes?

"If" you sin and truly repent, would you want to be constantly reminded of your past sin? I thought the Lord removes our sin as far as east is from west. You hold this bishop up to an impossibly high moral level... that of perfection. Do you honestly believe that your priest and your bishop have not had impure, lustful thoughts... ever? And our Lord has said that to lust after a woman (not grope her breast mind you) is to have committed that sin. Now what do you do? You have a priest... a bishop who doubtless have lusted since their ordination and therefore are guilty of such sins. So... we trust and hope that they confess their sins and truly repent of them. Bp Demetri was caught. He was punished. The question is: has he repented? If so, then what is the issue? Those of you who are holding our clerics up to impossibly high moral standards had better take a long, hard look at reality and at themselves. We expect forgiveness and forgetfulness of our Lord when it comes to our indiscretions but we're unwilling to forgive others. Bishops are men... and men are sinners. Bishops commit all manner of sin and we fool ourselves if we think they lead pure lives. We trust that they repent of their sin and this is what we trust of Bp Demetri.
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« Reply #162 on: May 13, 2009, 10:12:21 AM »


 Would it be fair to these women to have a sexual offender as a bishop?

Was it fair for Israel to have an adulterer and murderer for a King? Then again... we have Psalm 51, don't we: true repentance... a heart like that of God's.

"If" the bishop (or any bishop) has sinned and "if" the bishop truly repents, then "is" he a sexual offender? Perhaps in the eyes of the law but "is" he an offender OR "was" he an offender in God's eyes?

"If" you sin and truly repent, would you want to be constantly reminded of your past sin? I thought the Lord removes our sin as far as east is from west. You hold this bishop up to an impossibly high moral level... that of perfection. Do you honestly believe that your priest and your bishop have not had impure, lustful thoughts... ever? And our Lord has said that to lust after a woman (not grope her breast mind you) is to have committed that sin. Now what do you do? You have a priest... a bishop who doubtless have lusted since their ordination and therefore are guilty of such sins. So... we trust and hope that they confess their sins and truly repent of them. Bp Demetri was caught. He was punished. The question is: has he repented? If so, then what is the issue? Those of you who are holding our clerics up to impossibly high moral standards had better take a long, hard look at reality and at themselves. We expect forgiveness and forgetfulness of our Lord when it comes to our indiscretions but we're unwilling to forgive others. Bishops are men... and men are sinners. Bishops commit all manner of sin and we fool ourselves if we think they lead pure lives. We trust that they repent of their sin and this is what we trust of Bp Demetri.


As stated several times in previous posts, the issue is not about forgiving +Demitri, and restoring him. The issue is if he should serve in a clerical role; especially auxiliary bishop. Those who oppose him serving in a clerical role are not being judgmental, or unloving. Do you not see our concerns as valid? You still have not addressed the effect this would have on women in his dioceses who have been victims of sexual abuse or harassment. Wouldn't this, in and of itself, be enough to prohibit him from serving in a clerical role?
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« Reply #163 on: May 13, 2009, 10:14:57 AM »

I have read this thread with some amusement with all the bantering back and forth. While Metropolitan Philip may want to consider for any number of reasons the reinstatement of Bishop Demetri, most seem to be missing an important business issue that would probably prohibit his return to active service in the archdiocese. That being the liability insurance for the archdiocese. Once the insurer finds out that a convicted and registered sex-offender is in active employ of the archdiocese one of two things will happen. Either the premiums for the archdiocese will be raised astronomically or they will outright cancel the policy and with that on record will probably make the obtaining of such insurance nearly impossible to get. Insurance companies are not likely to take any chances in this area.

Excellent point Friar. This was also a concern of mine, but I didn't bring it up. It is just one more reason not to have +Demitri serve in a clerical role. For his repentance and restoration, why not just have him live out his days in repentance at a monastery? What is wrong with that?
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« Reply #164 on: May 13, 2009, 10:57:02 AM »



As stated several times in previous posts, the issue is not about forgiving +Demitri, and restoring him. The issue is if he should serve in a clerical role; especially auxiliary bishop. Those who oppose him serving in a clerical role are not being judgmental, or unloving. Do you not see our concerns as valid? You still have not addressed the effect this would have on women in his dioceses who have been victims of sexual abuse or harassment. Wouldn't this, in and of itself, be enough to prohibit him from serving in a clerical role?

I understand perfectly what the issues are, having read all the previous posts. You ask if I see your concerns as valid. No, I don't. Why? Let me restate: "Bishops are men... and men are sinners. Bishops commit all manner of sin and we fool ourselves if we think they lead pure lives. We trust that they repent of their sin and this is what we trust of Bp Demetri."

You want me to address the effect this would have on women? Now tell me... how could anyone here possibly do that? We're a very, very small sampling of people here. A few women here have expressed their concerns. What does that mean in the broader context? Very little since the statistical sampling is far too small. I don't know nor do you nor does anyone else know the effect this would have on women. I suspect some would be okay with it and others would not. So, no... I don't believe this is enough to prohibit him from serving as an auxiliary bishop in the archdiocese. Do I have daughters? Yes. And I have granddaughters as well. Would I be concerned about their welfare? No, I wouldn't. 
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« Reply #165 on: May 13, 2009, 11:40:09 AM »

For his repentance and restoration, why not just have him live out his days in repentance at a monastery? What is wrong with that?
Nothing whatsoever. I agree.
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« Reply #166 on: May 13, 2009, 11:49:41 AM »

Saint Paul gives us the "job description" for a bishop.  Probably as applicable today as it was in his time...

If a man desires the position of a bishop,
he desires a good work.

A bishop then must be blameless,

the husband of one wife,

temperate,

sober-minded,

of good behavior,

hospitable,

able to teach;

not given to wine,

not violent,

not greedy for money,

gentle,

not quarrelsome,

not covetous....

Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside,
lest he fall into reproach...

1 Timothy 3
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« Reply #167 on: May 13, 2009, 12:14:36 PM »



As stated several times in previous posts, the issue is not about forgiving +Demitri, and restoring him. The issue is if he should serve in a clerical role; especially auxiliary bishop. Those who oppose him serving in a clerical role are not being judgmental, or unloving. Do you not see our concerns as valid? You still have not addressed the effect this would have on women in his dioceses who have been victims of sexual abuse or harassment. Wouldn't this, in and of itself, be enough to prohibit him from serving in a clerical role?

I understand perfectly what the issues are, having read all the previous posts.
Can you demonstrate this?  It's not enough to merely say you understand perfectly what the issues are if you can't demonstrate this to others.  That's why schools administer tests to their students, to allow each of them to show that he knows the material he has supposedly studied.

You ask if I see your concerns as valid. No, I don't. Why? Let me restate: "Bishops are men... and men are sinners. Bishops commit all manner of sin and we fool ourselves if we think they lead pure lives. We trust that they repent of their sin and this is what we trust of Bp Demetri."
So you make no separation between the man Demetri Khouri and the episcopal office he once held?
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« Reply #168 on: May 13, 2009, 12:24:48 PM »

Saint Paul gives us the "job description" for a bishop.  Probably as applicable today as it was in his time...

If a man desires the position of a bishop,
he desires a good work.

A bishop then must be blameless,

the husband of one wife,

temperate,

sober-minded,

of good behavior,

hospitable,

able to teach;

not given to wine,

not violent,

not greedy for money,

gentle,

not quarrelsome,

not covetous....

Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside,
lest he fall into reproach...

1 Timothy 3

Incisive as always, Father.

Again, the issue is not +Demetri's personal salvation (God save him!) but the good of the Church.  No one has a right to the episcopacy, and it is not a personal possession, but one exercised for the good of the Church.
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« Reply #169 on: May 13, 2009, 12:27:37 PM »

Setting aside our (hopefully) common desire to see +Demetri live a life of repentance and full communion with God, has anyone explained the pressing need to have this particular man restored to his former role in the Church?  Are there any special gifts he would bring to the position of Auxiliary Bishop that no other man could bring?  Because if not, it seems the potential negatives associated with restoring his authority would outweigh the benefits.

In other words, and as others have pointed out, why for some does forgiveness necessarily entail putting things back to the way they were before his crime?  If he can still participate in the life of the Church, contribute scholarly works, receive the sacraments, and other things as a member of the laity then what's the problem?

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« Reply #170 on: May 13, 2009, 12:39:40 PM »

Why is what to do with Bishop Demetri a question of extremes?  Why must he either be deposed or restored to supervising a diocese?  Surely there are other alternatives where he will not be in a position of compromised pastoral ability but also not unnecessarily deposing him.  Perhaps his particular mission as a bishop could be to establish monasteries, especially seeing as the Antiochian Archdiocese has none, or placed in a role at a seminary.  Is it really the case that there is no middle ground concerning what to do with him and it must be one of two extremes? 
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« Reply #171 on: May 13, 2009, 12:45:09 PM »

Why is what to do with Bishop Demetri a question of extremes?  Why must he either be deposed or restored to supervising a diocese?  Surely there are other alternatives where he will not be in a position of compromised pastoral ability but also not unnecessarily deposing him.  Perhaps his particular mission as a bishop could be to establish monasteries, especially seeing as the Antiochian Archdiocese has none, or placed in a role at a seminary.  Is it really the case that there is no middle ground concerning what to do with him and it must be one of two extremes? 

It's a volital issue in volatile times. Case in point, the reason why we don't have monasteries, why are bishops are being demoted, and why we are even discussing this seems to be related.  Another Metropolitan, it might be reasonably discussed.
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« Reply #172 on: May 13, 2009, 01:05:05 PM »


Can you demonstrate this?  It's not enough to merely say you understand perfectly what the issues are if you can't demonstrate this to others.  That's why schools administer tests to their students, to allow each of them to show that he knows the material he has supposedly studied.

 I've demonstrated it to my satisfaction. I could, of course, make the same claim towards you: do YOU understand what I am saying? And "it's not enough to merely say you understand perfectly my position.


Quote
So you make no separation between the man Demetri Khouri and the episcopal office he once held?

It's obvious from the question above that you do NOT understand my position. Rather than repeat it, I invite you to go back and re-read what I've written.

St John of Damascus prayed, "I know indeed, O Lord, that I am not worthy of thy love... But, O Lord, whether I wish it or not, do thou save me. For if thou savest the just, it is nothing great; and if thou hast merc upon the pure, it is nothing marvelous; for they are worthy of thy mercy. But upon me, a sinner, show the wonder of thy mercy; in this manifest thy love toward all."

In my view. ALL bishops and ALL priests are sinners and no doubt the majority of them are sexual offenders through the fact of their being male with masculine urges and the fact that they are sinners. They may not have acted overtly upon their lusts but they've unquestionably acted upon it periodically in their thought life and according to our Lord, there is no difference as far as heaven is concerned. And as I've pointed out several times now, David's sin was much more profound than groping someone's breast and yet that did not disqualify him from his kingship. Unlike Saul, he repented thoroughly. Yes, he suffered personal consequences and Bp Demetri has as well. His kingship, however, was not removed from him as was Saul's.

The qualifications for bishop cited above have no doubt been met in Bp Demetri. Since that time of his ordination, he fell into sin and was publicly punished for this. If he has repented as thoroughly as King David, why should he not retain his position? Furthermore, how can we possibly believe that these qualifications are being met 100% by all our bishops... in truth, by any of our bishops? The last time I checked with the bible it stated that: "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
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« Reply #173 on: May 13, 2009, 01:07:45 PM »


It's a volital issue in volatile times. Case in point, the reason why we don't have monasteries, why are bishops are being demoted, and why we are even discussing this seems to be related.  Another Metropolitan, it might be reasonably discussed.

AH. And this is what really concerns me is at the heart of many of these complaints being leveled against the bishop: Metropolitan Philip's actions.
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« Reply #174 on: May 13, 2009, 01:09:23 PM »

Quote
I've demonstrated it to my satisfaction. I could, of course, make the same claim towards you: do YOU understand what I am saying? And "it's not enough to merely say you understand perfectly my position.
Fix the quote nesting inside the above posts, or instruct one of our moderators on how to fix them if your time window for modifications has closed, and maybe I'll understand your last posts better. Wink



(EDIT after seeing your modifications):  Thank you. Smiley
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« Reply #175 on: May 13, 2009, 01:23:24 PM »


Can you demonstrate this?  It's not enough to merely say you understand perfectly what the issues are if you can't demonstrate this to others.  That's why schools administer tests to their students, to allow each of them to show that he knows the material he has supposedly studied.

 I've demonstrated it to my satisfaction. I could, of course, make the same claim towards you: do YOU understand what I am saying? And "it's not enough to merely say you understand perfectly my position.
Honestly, I'm not sure I do, nor am I claiming to understand your position. Wink

Quote
So you make no separation between the man Demetri Khouri and the episcopal office he once held?

It's obvious from the question above that you do NOT understand my position.
Did I ever say I did?  I admit that I don't fully understand your position, which is why I asked you such a pointed question based on what I thought you might have been trying to say.

Rather than repeat it, I invite you to go back and re-read what I've written.

St John of Damascus prayed, "I know indeed, O Lord, that I am not worthy of thy love... But, O Lord, whether I wish it or not, do thou save me. For if thou savest the just, it is nothing great; and if thou hast merc upon the pure, it is nothing marvelous; for they are worthy of thy mercy. But upon me, a sinner, show the wonder of thy mercy; in this manifest thy love toward all."

In my view. ALL bishops and ALL priests are sinners and no doubt the majority of them are sexual offenders through the fact of their being male with masculine urges and the fact that they are sinners. They may not have acted overtly upon their lusts but they've unquestionably acted upon it periodically in their thought life and according to our Lord, there is no difference as far as heaven is concerned. And as I've pointed out several times now, David's sin was much more profound than groping someone's breast and yet that did not disqualify him from his kingship. Unlike Saul, he repented thoroughly. Yes, he suffered personal consequences and Bp Demetri has as well. His kingship, however, was not removed from him as was Saul's.

The qualifications for bishop cited above have no doubt been met in Bp Demetri. Since that time of his ordination, he fell into sin and was publicly punished for this. If he has repented as thoroughly as King David, why should he not retain his position? Furthermore, how can we possibly believe that these qualifications are being met 100% by all our bishops... in truth, by any of our bishops? The last time I checked with the bible it stated that: "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
Read all my posts on this thread, and you'll see that I'm actually still ambivalent on this issue.  I have found your arguments in favor of Bishop Demetri's restoration quite cogent, but I also see a lot of wisdom in some of the counter-arguments I've read here.  Having not yet made a judgment of my own, I'm here just to ask [hopefully] incisive questions of both sides.
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« Reply #176 on: May 13, 2009, 02:24:15 PM »

I have a question; what was the good Bishop doing in a casino? Undecided
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« Reply #177 on: May 13, 2009, 02:30:58 PM »

I have a question; what was the good Bishop doing in a casino? Undecided

He had a serious drinking problem; in the Toledo-Detroit area, the draw of drinking and gambling seems to be pretty strong.
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« Reply #178 on: May 13, 2009, 03:03:28 PM »


I know it is a cultural thing but in Greece she would left in laughs and tell the whole story to her friends or she would have slapped him on the face and go, or call her husband if he was really out of control.

How would you feel if a man did this to your MOTHER? or how about Jesus' Mother, the Theotokos?



Quote
The serious part

1. This is why priests should wear their rasa also outside the church, for self protection from misconduct.

Agreed!


Quote
a) What was a bishop doing in a casino?
b) Why was he drunk?

Those were my thoughts as well!



Quote
Well true, in Greece and the mediteranean we are much more tolerant with gestures and verbal teasings (you should be a woman tourist in Spain), even if foul language is used. We consider something as offensive depending on the intentions and the overall attitude. I guess most women are flattered if they are teased in the street.

This is not shouting, or calling out "hey sexy" this is grabbing a woman's breast without her consent. I don't see them as being the same thing. Again, imagine this happening to your mother, (whether earthly or your heavenly mother the Theotokos)....it might put things in a bit of a new perspective.




Quote
Yes it is a shame for what the bishop did but it is a shame for HIM not for us. It is not easy for me to exterminate a human being. Unless he is introducing heresies. To me heresy is the deadline.

No, it is a shame for us in the Church, for those enquiring about the Church, for those who see this action and say, "see that's why I never go to Church/am not Christian"....

We're not talking about "exterminating" him, good grief. He should be forgiven like everyone else, but that doesn't mean he gets to hold onto his authority either. A Bishop is supposed to represent Christ, did he do that? Yes he's ill, suffers from alcoholism and the like.....but that's all the more reason he shouldn't have a position of authority. At least not at this time. Maybe a teaching position, a lecturer a theologian, I'm ok with all that, but not one of authority, for his sake and ours.



Quote
At least he was a MAN (and not a gay abusing acolytes in the altar)

You mean like other Orthodox priests in this country who WERE abusing acolytes? Yeah, its not just a "Catholic problem" because we've had them too. It's just never talked about because Orthodoxy in this country is irrelevant to the country and off the radar screen.

I do kind of get what your saying, but just because "everyone is doing" doesn't mean it makes it ok. Yes, Americans are too uptight about sex in general. We are a schizophrenic society in regards to that issue, I completely agree with you...and I think for the better part of my sanity, I'll leave at that....we can agree on that one issue, even if we disagree on the other.





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« Reply #179 on: May 13, 2009, 03:17:46 PM »

If we can reinstate a bishop, who repents, for abusing a woman, then why not the same for a priest or bishop, who has abused boys?  Both are sex offenders and can anyone really trust and feel comfortable with either serving in the Church? 
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« Reply #180 on: May 13, 2009, 03:27:34 PM »


Was it fair for Israel to have an adulterer and murderer for a King? Then again... we have Psalm 51, don't we: true repentance... a heart like that of God's.

A Bishop is not a king, no matter how much some of them pretend to be. They're servants of Christ the church, and of us. We only have one king, that is Christ.
 

Quote
"If" the bishop (or any bishop) has sinned and "if" the bishop truly repents, then "is" he a sexual offender? Perhaps in the eyes of the law but "is" he an offender OR "was" he an offender in God's eyes?

I don't know what God sees. But let's say he doesn't "see" a sexual offender, (of course you seem to be using the idea that our sinfulness is "covered" which really isn't Orthodox theology), we also don't know if God wants him to be a Bishop either. I mean, unless we get God's cell phone number, i don't get the point of your argument.



Quote
"If" you sin and truly repent, would you want to be constantly reminded of your past sin? I thought the Lord removes our sin as far as east is from west. You hold this bishop up to an impossibly high moral level... that of perfection. Do you honestly believe that your priest and your bishop have not had impure, lustful thoughts... ever? And our Lord has said that to lust after a woman (not grope her breast mind you) is to have committed that sin. Now what do you do? You have a priest... a bishop who doubtless have lusted since their ordination and therefore are guilty of such sins. So... we trust and hope that they confess their sins and truly repent of them. Bp Demetri was caught. He was punished. The question is: has he repented? If so, then what is the issue? Those of you who are holding our clerics up to impossibly high moral standards had better take a long, hard look at reality and at themselves. We expect forgiveness and forgetfulness of our Lord when it comes to our indiscretions but we're unwilling to forgive others. Bishops are men... and men are sinners. Bishops commit all manner of sin and we fool ourselves if we think they lead pure lives. We trust that they repent of their sin and this is what we trust of Bp Demetri.


Are you serious?! You're comparing the THOUGHT to an action? True, Orthodoxy doesn't "rank" sins, however no one in their right mind would suggest that thinking about killing someone is equally as bad as actually killing someone!

Are bishops sinners, yes. We know this...no one expects them to be perfect...however Bishops, who have taken monastic vows are not "one of the guys"..... Is it unfair that this man might have to live with some reminder of his sin for the rest of his life? maybe it is, but then he is a Bishop and  as a member of the clergy, by his office he is held to a higher standard. Pope Shenouda once wrote an article about this very topic (should priests and bishops be held to a higher standard) and he said YES! I don't remember where it was, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about, it would be good to post it.

 Not a standard of perfection, but a higher standard. No one has to be perfect, or even close to perfect to not grope women whom they don't know in a casino. So perfection has nothing to do with it.

NP


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« Reply #181 on: May 13, 2009, 03:35:15 PM »

If we can reinstate a bishop, who repents, for abusing a woman, then why not the same for a priest or bishop, who has abused boys?  Both are sex offenders and can anyone really trust and feel comfortable with either serving in the Church? 

Or how about a priest who robs banks part time? Or a priest who beats his wife? Or a bishop who steals money from the Church? (the last two examples are REAL examples BTW) I'm beginning to think Douglas is playing "devil's advocate" here for some reason that we're not aware of yet. Maybe he'll clarify things soon.

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« Reply #182 on: May 13, 2009, 03:46:03 PM »

If we can reinstate a bishop, who repents, for abusing a woman, then why not the same for a priest or bishop, who has abused boys?  Both are sex offenders and can anyone really trust and feel comfortable with either serving in the Church? 

Or how about a priest who robs banks part time? Or a priest who beats his wife? Or a bishop who steals money from the Church? (the last two examples are REAL examples BTW) I'm beginning to think Douglas is playing "devil's advocate" here for some reason that we're not aware of yet. Maybe he'll clarify things soon.



True, but do these show up on your record?  Sex offenders MUST register where they chose to live.  Who would feel comfortable having such a person around?  With money its possible to keep them far away from money, but with a sex offender, how can they return to ministry and yet be far away from what caused them to fall?  Anyone who ministers and falls, ideally, should be retired to a monastery where they would not have contact with whatever caused them to fall. 
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« Reply #183 on: May 13, 2009, 03:57:22 PM »

I'm beginning to think Douglas is playing "devil's advocate" here for some reason that we're not aware of yet. Maybe he'll clarify things soon.
And maybe he genuinely believes what he's arguing. Wink  You may think his opinion is wrong, but is he wrong to have an opinion that differs from yours?
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« Reply #184 on: May 13, 2009, 04:13:16 PM »

Were talking about a Bishop a Apostolic Successor, not a lay person, who carries The ordination Thur the succession of The Holy Apostles that Christ established, this is not a small matter,its very grave...

They have to be held to a very high standard...Be perfect examples in Holiness ..He is the shepherd of Christs flock on Earth...If he can't live up to it he should of requested, being sent to a monastery and giving up his position as Bishop, or even leaving the priesthood ,instead of profaning it by getting drunk, gambling,and grabbing ....If he want the things of the world so much i say leave the priesthood and join the world,but don't it as a ordained bishop ...

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« Reply #185 on: May 13, 2009, 04:28:56 PM »


Greetings brothers and sisters:

It is my humble opinion that the best interest of our brother Demetri Khouri, and the best interest of the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would both be met by Demetri's permanent retirement as an active diocesan clergyman. This should be immediately followed by his permanent entrance into a more secluded life of renewed prayer, contemplation, fasting, et al, at the Orthodox monastery of his choice, as elderly retired bishops often do anyway.



Only in this way can he be removed from easy access to the temptations of life in a more luxurious secular environment as previously lived, and thus have an honest opportunity to address his problematic thinking and behaviors apart from the circumstances that contributed to them. Additionally, when retired to a monastic community, he would no longer be considered a potential threat to anyone and would no longer be a visible public embarrassment to anyone in the Archdiocese. He may well be in need of a course of professional counseling or psychotherapy, and perhaps an AA program as well.

I am assuming that all of this has been extraordinarily embarrassing and humiliating to Demetri himself, as it would be for most individuals. A conviction of this sort, and the required registration in the public records, would most often be a career killer in any field, but particularly so for a clergyman in the collective mind of the general public. Thus, his anonymous retirement to an undisclosed monastery secluded from the world at large would quickly remove him and his case from the public eye of moral scrutiny and condemnation. Demetri and his case would both be quickly forgotten as other fatter fish to fry are reeled in by the media, and this whole matter would be a done deal.

My concern is simply that those in authority within the Archdiocese, who will ultimately make the crucial decisions regarding Demetri's permanent residence and job description, are his life long buddies from the Old Country. I fear that they may be more concerned about some misdirected effort to help Demetri save face by demonstrating confidence in him with a new Auxiliary Bishop post, complete with all of the financial resources, special amenities and perks that he was unable to appropriately manage previously. That would be a recipe for future disaster all around, IMO.  Undecided

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« Reply #186 on: May 13, 2009, 04:55:00 PM »

Only in this way can he be removed from easy access to the temptations of life in a more luxurious secular environment as previously lived, and thus have an honest opportunity to address his problematic thinking and behaviors apart from the circumstances that contributed to them. Additionally, when retired to a monastic community, he would no longer be considered a potential threat to anyone and would no longer be a visible public embarrassment to anyone in the Archdiocese. He may well be in need of a course of professional counseling or psychotherapy, and perhaps an AA program as well.

Isn't this what Metropolitan Philip already directed Bishop Demetri to seek?

Please note the date of this quote below, the contents, and where it came from.
I would like to preface this by saying that parishioners who really know me know <understatement>I'm not exactly a Metropolitan Philip apologist</understatement>*cough*

So, I'm going to exercise a right granted to all Americans at birth...that of parsing the statements made by authority figures.

However, I'd like to point out what His Eminence did right - and he did a LOT right in this statement.

...

3.  "I have directed Bishop Demetri to seek professional help."

He ORDERED, not requested.  In other words, he used the authority of his office, and quite properly.


...
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« Reply #187 on: May 13, 2009, 09:40:27 PM »

Irish Hermit, thank you so much for those verses from Holy Scripture. They were the verses which immediately came to mind when I started reading this thread-I couldn't erase them from my mind. 

Regarding this man being secluded in a monastery-I think this would be great. But I disagree somewhat that there will be no temptations there. Unfortunately, I have heard from friends (and seen with my own eyes) that there are some very corrupt monks in the monasteries. Sadly, one of my friends told me there was a young monk who routinely raped young female visitors. I was completely shocked. So women are apparently not totally safe from predators even in monasteries.

 But, I do personally feel it is asking too much to force men-even bishops-to remain celibate. It totally goes against nature and causes much sin. Look at the case of the poor young RC priest, Fr Alberto Cutie. I believe he's a sincere man and like what I've heard of him and wish he could marry his sweetheart and remain a priest. It's totally ridiculous that he can't. The impression I got was that this was some 11 (?) century canon and connected with preventing priests from passing church property on to their offspring. What carnality, and not biblical at all.

Additionally, as someone who truly cannot trust men anymore, I would like to say having such a bishop in the church would have a terrible impact on me as a woman. Unfortunately, I have met women who have been trifled with by our clergy-and they are damaged, tormented women. I myself fortunately was not taken advantage of by any clergyman, but even having had that terrible experience with a non-orthodox layman has sufficiently damaged me as a person. Going through the depressing experience of a man treating a woman with less than honour and respect can amazingly affect one's relationship with God. It's hard for me to explain this in words, but it's very true, and very real.

A clergyman as I see it, is in much the same position of trust as a therapist. If the therapist oversteps boundaries and takes advantage of a woman's trust and vulnerability, it is well-known to have devastating results. Some women who experience an illicit sexual relationship with such a person are damaged for life.

I know men are biologically programmed very differently from women, and I so often sense men simply don't understand how profoundly and adversely women are affected by such behaviour in men.

Forgive the long rant.
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« Reply #188 on: May 13, 2009, 09:53:24 PM »

Irish Hermit, thank you so much for those verses from Holy Scripture. They were the verses which immediately came to mind when I started reading this thread-I couldn't erase them from my mind. 

Regarding this man being secluded in a monastery-I think this would be great. But I disagree somewhat that there will be no temptations there. Unfortunately, I have heard from friends (and seen with my own eyes) that there are some very corrupt monks in the monasteries. Sadly, one of my friends told me there was a young monk who routinely raped young female visitors. I was completely shocked. So women are apparently not totally safe from predators even in monasteries.

 But, I do personally feel it is asking too much to force men-even bishops-to remain celibate. It totally goes against nature and causes much sin. Look at the case of the poor young RC priest, Fr Alberto Cutie. I believe he's a sincere man and like what I've heard of him and wish he could marry his sweetheart and remain a priest. It's totally ridiculous that he can't. The impression I got was that this was some 11 (?) century canon and connected with preventing priests from passing church property on to their offspring. What carnality, and not biblical at all.

Additionally, as someone who truly cannot trust men anymore, I would like to say having such a bishop in the church would have a terrible impact on me as a woman. Unfortunately, I have met women who have been trifled with by our clergy-and they are damaged, tormented women. I myself fortunately was not taken advantage of by any clergyman, but even having had that terrible experience with a non-orthodox layman has sufficiently damaged me as a person. Going through the depressing experience of a man treating a woman with less than honour and respect can amazingly affect one's relationship with God. It's hard for me to explain this in words, but it's very true, and very real.

A clergyman as I see it, is in much the same position of trust as a therapist. If the therapist oversteps boundaries and takes advantage of a woman's trust and vulnerability, it is well-known to have devastating results. Some women who experience an illicit sexual relationship with such a person are damaged for life.

I know men are biologically programmed very differently from women, and I so often sense men simply don't understand how profoundly and adversely women are affected by such behaviour in men.

Forgive the long rant.

Rosehip,

What you have written here has nailed it for me. I, as a woman, can relate to what you have said on a personal level.

love, Tamara
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« Reply #189 on: May 14, 2009, 10:44:40 AM »

If we can reinstate a bishop, who repents, for abusing a woman, then why not the same for a priest or bishop, who has abused boys?  Both are sex offenders and can anyone really trust and feel comfortable with either serving in the Church? 

Or how about a priest who robs banks part time? Or a priest who beats his wife? Or a bishop who steals money from the Church? (the last two examples are REAL examples BTW) I'm beginning to think Douglas is playing "devil's advocate" here for some reason that we're not aware of yet. Maybe he'll clarify things soon.



True, but do these show up on your record?  Sex offenders MUST register where they chose to live.  Who would feel comfortable having such a person around?  With money its possible to keep them far away from money, but with a sex offender, how can they return to ministry and yet be far away from what caused them to fall?  Anyone who ministers and falls, ideally, should be retired to a monastery where they would not have contact with whatever caused them to fall. 

First, actually yes those crimes do show up on your record as well, though they might not be quite as easily accessed as the sexual offender registery is.

Secondly, I'm not defending the idea he should be returned to active authority in the Church. Read my posts, you might have me confused with another poster here.  I'm with you, and Tamara, and all those who say he should not be given Church authority. As far as sending him to a monastery, I guess I have no comment because if he truly has something to offer, "maybe" he could do something like teach, (a big maybe), if he's truly repentant....but I've consistently said he shouldn't be given authority again.


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« Reply #190 on: May 14, 2009, 10:59:13 AM »

I'm beginning to think Douglas is playing "devil's advocate" here for some reason that we're not aware of yet. Maybe he'll clarify things soon.
And maybe he genuinely believes what he's arguing. Wink  You may think his opinion is wrong, but is he wrong to have an opinion that differs from yours?

It is if his opinion is wrong! Smiley

I get what your saying, but what if his opinion was that a Bishop who stole millions of dollars from the Church should be forgiven, and not judged, and remain a Bishop?

Is that opinion just as valid as any other? Sure in one sense it certainly is, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but if taken to it's ultimate conclusion (in this context) someone could argue all sorts of things. like, a priest who was caught soliciting prostitutes could be returned to active ministry in 2 years...ooops, another real example. Or a a clergymen who beat up his altar boys could be remain a priest. (an invented story, as far as I know) Or a Bishop who rapes a woman should be "forgiven" and remain a bishop. (again I just invented that) Is a person entitled to those opinions? Yeah they sure are. Are those opinions right? I guess with the argument that all opinions are valid, then I'd have to honestly say, I don't know.



however the issue is about Forgiveness, being the same thing as "trust".......Forgiveness is one thing, restoration to the Sacred priesthood is something totally different though. If a priest tells other people of my confession, am I commanded to forgive him? Yes! Do I have to "trust" him in the future and thus confess to him again? Absolutely not. It doesn't mean I hate the priest, it simply means I no longer trust him in his position as a confessor.


NP





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« Reply #191 on: May 14, 2009, 11:01:51 AM »

It is if his opinion is wrong! Smiley

I get what your saying, but what if his opinion was that a Bishop who stole millions of dollars from the Church should be forgiven, and not judged, and remain a Bishop?

Is that opinion just as valid as any other? Sure in one sense it certainly is, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but if taken to it's ultimate conclusion (in this context) someone could argue all sorts of things. like, a priest who was caught soliciting prostitutes could be returned to active ministry in 2 years...ooops, another real example. Or a a clergymen who beat up his altar boys could be remain a priest. (an invented story, as far as I know) Or a Bishop who rapes a woman should be "forgiven" and remain a bishop. (again I just invented that) Is a person entitled to those opinions? Yeah they sure are. Are those opinions right? I guess with the argument that all opinions are valid, then I'd have to honestly say, I don't know.



however the issue is about Forgiveness, being the same thing as "trust".......Forgiveness is one thing, restoration to the Sacred priesthood is something totally different though. If a priest tells other people of my confession, am I commanded to forgive him? Yes! Do I have to "trust" him in the future and thus confess to him again? Absolutely not. It doesn't mean I hate the priest, it simply means I no longer trust him in his position as a confessor.


NP
Absolutely right on the money!
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« Reply #192 on: May 14, 2009, 11:12:51 AM »

Once you destroy trust, it is next to impossible to restore.
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« Reply #193 on: May 14, 2009, 11:13:31 AM »

Once you destroy trust, it is next to impossible to restore.
Yes, it is. Lord Have Mercy.
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« Reply #194 on: May 14, 2009, 11:16:29 AM »



 But, I do personally feel it is asking too much to force men-even bishops-to remain celibate. It totally goes against nature and causes much sin. Look at the case of the poor young RC priest, Fr Alberto Cutie. I believe he's a sincere man and like what I've heard of him and wish he could marry his sweetheart and remain a priest. It's totally ridiculous that he can't.

The two cases aren't really that comparable because as you probably know, most of our priests are married. (before ordination) A Bishop is supposed to be taken from the monastic way of life. And no one forces people into being a monk or a nun. It's totally volunatary in this day and age. Of course there might be some issues with people being tonsured monks at too young of an age etc, but that is probably not the case here. The big problem is that so many Bishops today are not taken from the monastery, (in the literal sense) and so the discipline may not really be there. Celibacy certainly isn't for everyone, but it's been a constant teaching of both the Old and New Testaments that it IS an option and IS possible for people that are called to it. And in theory, Bishops are supposed to be taken from people are are FIRST called to the celibate life. However I think in practical terms what's happening is that people decide they're called to be a Bishop, and THEN decide to do that, they must be celibate. And that is problematic. (again, just speaking in general here not about this specific case so much)


Quote
A clergyman as I see it, is in much the same position of trust as a therapist. If the therapist oversteps boundaries and takes advantage of a woman's trust and vulnerability, it is well-known to have devastating results. Some women who experience an illicit sexual relationship with such a person are damaged for life.

I think your analogy between clergy and therapist is a fairly good one.

Putting aside the celibacy issue, I agree with basically everything else you said.


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« Reply #195 on: May 14, 2009, 12:19:45 PM »

Quote
Putting aside the celibacy issue,

Yes, but in the Scriptures quoted by Irish Hermit, it is written that a bishop is to be the husband of one wife. So I believe we are straying from Scripture here. I know we don't believe in sola scriptura, but this seems like such a very obvious and simple qualification-I've never quite been able to see how it could be overlooked and so completely changed by the Church? Why doesn't the Church take obedience to such verses seriously? It seems so plain to me. If I understand correctly, it was actually changed for many of the same reasons the RCC chose to make celibacy for their priests mandatory-to prevent "church property" from being inherited by clergy/hierarchy offspring.
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« Reply #196 on: May 14, 2009, 12:40:59 PM »

Saint Paul gives us the "job description" for a bishop.  Probably as applicable today as it was in his time...

If a man desires the position of a bishop,
he desires a good work.

A bishop then must be blameless,

the husband of one wife,

temperate,

sober-minded,

of good behavior,

hospitable,

able to teach;

not given to wine,

not violent,

not greedy for money,

gentle,

not quarrelsome,

not covetous....

Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside,
lest he fall into reproach...

1 Timothy 3

Excellent point Father. I believe the Holy Scriptures are quite clear on the issue.
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« Reply #197 on: May 14, 2009, 12:47:43 PM »

Yes, but in the Scriptures quoted by Irish Hermit, it is written that a bishop is to be the husband of one wife. So I believe we are straying from Scripture here. I know we don't believe in sola scriptura, but this seems like such a very obvious and simple qualification-I've never quite been able to see how it could be overlooked and so completely changed by the Church? Why doesn't the Church take obedience to such verses seriously? It seems so plain to me. If I understand correctly, it was actually changed for many of the same reasons the RCC chose to make celibacy for their priests mandatory-to prevent "church property" from being inherited by clergy/hierarchy offspring. 

Um, the verse saying "husband of one wife" isn't a mandate on having married Bishops; but, rather, that the candidates for Bishop at the time who were married could only have married once; had no relations before their first wife; etc.  It doesn't say that they "must be married;" it's only a restriction on those who are married.  Celibate episcopacy wasn't new when it was normalized by the various councils; heck, it wasn't even new in the 1st Century (there are a few Apostles who were likely not married).  If I were you, I wouldn't read too much into that one verse, except that the Church put a high priority on monogamy even from the beginning.
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« Reply #198 on: May 14, 2009, 01:13:48 PM »

Yes, I agree with you Cleveland. However, nowhere does it FORBID bishops to be married. And what is better, to forbid them to marry and then they have mistresses on the side or commit other indiscretions, or they have a godly wife who will be able to be a true helpmeet to them in many ways?  I still think it is not wholesome for a man to refrain from marriage unless he truly has the gift of celibacy, and from what I've observed, this gift is very, very rare. The only benefit of a celibate hierarch that I can see is the necessity of frequent travels, which would place a great strain on any marriage. I even know of priests who seem to travel a great deal, leaving their wives behind, and I can see the sad state of such marriages. It can happen in any religious group, Protestant or otherwise.
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« Reply #199 on: May 14, 2009, 05:07:22 PM »

How many Bishop of any of the Orthodox Churches are actually Monastics?
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« Reply #200 on: May 14, 2009, 05:51:34 PM »

How many Bishop of any of the Orthodox Churches are actually Monastics?

Excellent question!

It often appears to be the case in the past many decades that those who are earmarked by the Holy Synod to become bishops were not monks living in a monastery at the time. They were certainly already ordained and experienced priests, who were either serving as church pastors somewhere or teaching at seminaries, and so forth, but they were not already monks with long term experience of personal spiritual formation in the monastic life.

So, in order to meet the official rules and regulations, those selected to assume the office of a bishop were simply sent to a monastery to be formally inducted for a brief period of time, thereby technically becoming a monk, and then withdrawn for elevation to the rank of a bishop thereafter. Presto manifesto! Done deal.

Understandably, most of those who are truly called by God to live a monastic life probably wouldn't find the office of a bishop to be very appealing, as it involves daily contacts with many people in more secular situations and surroundings, which are surely the antithesis of the more eremitical monastic lifestyle they felt called to.

For a true monk to accept such a post would require making a major personal sacrifice in behalf of the Church and the Faithful!

May God grant them many years!

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« Reply #201 on: May 14, 2009, 05:54:16 PM »

For a true monk to accept such a post would require making a major personal sacrifice in behalf of the Church and the Faithful!


And that monk would be a wonderful Bishop !

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