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Author Topic: Did Mary die from Love?  (Read 4682 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 05, 2009, 11:59:13 PM »

Would Orthodoxy consider as acceptable (a theologumen, perhaps) the Catholic idea that Mary died from love, not because she had to die?
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Mary's death was not necessarily the effect of violence; it was undergone neither as an expiation or penalty, nor as the effect of disease from which, like her Divine Son, she was exempt. Since the Middle Ages the view prevails that she died of love, her great desire to be united to her Son either dissolving the ties of body and soul, or prevailing on God to dissolve them. Her passing away is a sacrifice of love completing the dolorous sacrifice of her life. It is the death in the kiss of the Lord (in osculo Domini), of which the just die.

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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2009, 12:02:50 AM »

Would Orthodoxy consider as acceptable (a theologumen, perhaps) the Catholic idea that Mary died from love, not because she had to die?
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Mary's death was not necessarily the effect of violence; it was undergone neither as an expiation or penalty, nor as the effect of disease from which, like her Divine Son, she was exempt. Since the Middle Ages the view prevails that she died of love, her great desire to be united to her Son either dissolving the ties of body and soul, or prevailing on God to dissolve them. Her passing away is a sacrifice of love completing the dolorous sacrifice of her life. It is the death in the kiss of the Lord (in osculo Domini), of which the just die.



No.
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2009, 12:26:09 AM »

Would Orthodoxy consider as acceptable (a theologumen, perhaps) the Catholic idea that Mary died from love, not because she had to die?
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Mary's death was not necessarily the effect of violence; it was undergone neither as an expiation or penalty, nor as the effect of disease from which, like her Divine Son, she was exempt. Since the Middle Ages the view prevails that she died of love, her great desire to be united to her Son either dissolving the ties of body and soul, or prevailing on God to dissolve them. Her passing away is a sacrifice of love completing the dolorous sacrifice of her life. It is the death in the kiss of the Lord (in osculo Domini), of which the just die.

What Orthodoxy would not agree with is

1) the notion that the Theotokos was exempt from disease and death since she lived under the conditions of the Fall.

2) the notion that her death was a "sacrifice" (the notion itself is self-contradictory; why would it be a "sacrifice" to be with her Son?)

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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2009, 12:28:09 AM »

Gawd. Mountains out of molehills, sentimental, emotionalist extrapolation. Look up the text of the Vigil for the Dormition of the Mother of God, for goodness sake.
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2009, 12:31:07 AM »

Jetevan is asking a valid question and has started an interesting discussion point.
I don't think we need to be confrontational and belligerent.
It would make a nice change to have a civil discussion on the forum.
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2009, 03:20:07 PM »

It would make a nice change to have a civil discussion on the forum.

Agreed. 

For reference, here is the OCA's page on the Dormition of the Theotokos
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 08:03:12 PM »

Is it a dogma that Mary died?

I find it strange that her tomb wasn't venerated, and there's no tradition concerning it's exact whereabouts (and I believe "The Dormition of The Virgin Mary," which discribes her burial and resurrection, dates from the 6th century?)

I believe she's in heaven (body and soul) with her Son, but is the belief that she died before getting there a dogma?
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 08:25:04 PM »

Is it a dogma that Mary died?

I find it strange that her tomb wasn't venerated, and there's no tradition concerning it's exact whereabouts (and I believe "The Dormition of The Virgin Mary," which discribes her burial and resurrection, dates from the 6th century?)

I believe she's in heaven (body and soul) with her Son, but is the belief that she died before getting there a dogma?

Everyone must die before the second coming.  God showed that even His Incarnate Son wasn't exempt from death (although His Incarnate Son did it not naturally, but willingly for our salvation).  But to say that the Theotokos was exempt from death and disease in a similar way to Christ is not correct.  Given the interpretation of the immaculate conception is consistent with the views of those I've read in this board, if baptized people die naturally, why is the Theotokos exempt?

I think to extend this view to say that she died out of love and willfulness, and not of our her own natural inclinations is blasphemy.
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 08:52:07 PM »

Given the interpretation of the immaculate conception is consistent with the views of those I've read in this board, if baptized people die naturally, why is the Theotokos exempt?

Because there is a lot of theologoumena surrounding the "exempt from the stain of original sin". Some people think that means Original Sin and all it's effects (death/concupiscence). Taken that way, she is unable to have died and, if she did die... then... *scratch head*

I think to extend this view to say that she died out of love and willfulness, and not of our her own natural inclinations is blasphemy.

Agreed. I think I'll die now... *blegh*
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 08:53:24 PM »

Is it a dogma that Mary died?

I find it strange that her tomb wasn't venerated, and there's no tradition concerning it's exact whereabouts (and I believe "The Dormition of The Virgin Mary," which discribes her burial and resurrection, dates from the 6th century?)

I believe she's in heaven (body and soul) with her Son, but is the belief that she died before getting there a dogma?
Yes.
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 09:39:12 PM »

I was in the Cloisters museum in NY the weekend before last, and noted a Western carving of the Dormition from the Middle Ages. The idea that the Theotokos was Assumed into Heaven before bodily death (an idea that many Roman Catholics hold now) seems to be a late notion then.
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 09:48:10 PM »

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Everyone must die before the second coming.

Than why did Paul say "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51-52)?

And if the Theotokous died (in Adam), and rose (in Christ, 2000 years before "His coming"), how does that fit in with what Paul says here?

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the  end..." (1 Cor. 15:22-24.)

It makes more sense to me that she isn't mentioned here because she never died "in Adam," and her "Assumption" anticipates the instantaneous "change"" of those alive at the second coming (and perhaps that's why there's no "tomb of the virgin" in the vicinity of the garden tomb today?)

BTW: I believe Roman Catholics would consider this a matter of theological opinion (i.e. they can go either way on this), what about the Orthodox?

Is the death of the Virgin, before her bodily assumption, truly a dogma of the Orthodox Church???
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 10:15:15 PM »

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Is the death of the Virgin, before her bodily assumption, truly a dogma of the Orthodox Church???

Absolutely. Read the hymns for the Feast of the Dormition. "What we pray, is what we believe" to quote the old (Latin) maxim.
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 10:23:33 PM »

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Is the death of the Virgin, before her bodily assumption, truly a dogma of the Orthodox Church???

Absolutely. Read the hymns for the Feast of the Dormition. "What we pray, is what we believe" to quote the old (Latin) maxim.

Is that old Latin maxim dogma?

Is everything sung in hymn on the same level as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed?
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 10:26:22 PM »

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Everyone must die before the second coming.

Than why did Paul say "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51-52)?

And if the Theotokous died (in Adam), and rose (in Christ, 2000 years before "His coming"), how does that fit in with what Paul says here?

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the  end..." (1 Cor. 15:22-24.)

It makes more sense to me that she isn't mentioned here because she never died "in Adam," and her "Assumption" anticipates the instantaneous "change"" of those alive at the second coming (and perhaps that's why there's no "tomb of the virgin" in the vicinity of the garden tomb today?)

BTW: I believe Roman Catholics would consider this a matter of theological opinion (i.e. they can go either way on this), what about the Orthodox?

Is the death of the Virgin, before her bodily assumption, truly a dogma of the Orthodox Church???

This could be speaking of the second coming and when Christ returns those who are alive will be transformed.  A physical death would be meaningless at that moment.
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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 10:27:34 PM »

Quote
Everyone must die before the second coming.

Than why did Paul say "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51-52)?

And if the Theotokous died (in Adam),
We all, as St. Paul wrote, died in Adam. That is not what the Dormition commemorates.


Quote
and rose (in Christ, 2000 years before "His coming"), how does that fit in with what Paul says here?

"The dead shall be raised incorruptible." By the time that St. Paul had written this, she had already fallen asleep, and was raised.

Quote
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the  end..." (1 Cor. 15:22-24.)

It makes more sense to me that she isn't mentioned here because she never died "in Adam," and her "Assumption" anticipates the instantaneous "change"" of those alive at the second coming (and perhaps that's why there's no "tomb of the virgin" in the vicinity of the garden tomb today?)
She is not mentioned here because she was not personally the proclamation of the Church. Hence why St. Paul never mentions her by name, and only alludes to here when he states the Christ was "born of a woman."

Quote
I would like to know whether what we're discusing is doctrine, dogma, or theological opinion?

I believe Roman Catholics would consider it theological opinion (i.e. they can go either way on this), what about the Orthodox???
It is dogma that she fell asleep.
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 10:31:14 PM »

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It is dogma that she fell asleep.

By what ecumenical council was it declared a dogma?

When?

Quote
We all, as St. Paul wrote, died in Adam

I believe he used the present tense.

You used the past tense.

Are you refering to original sin (as in we all died spiritually when Adam sinned)?

Is that dogma too?
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 10:34:45 PM »

Quote
It is dogma that she fell asleep.

By what ecumenical council was it declared a dogma?

When?

Dogmas do not have to be declared by an ecumenical council. It is declared by the liturgical texts of August 15.
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 10:37:29 PM »

So any liturgical text is as much a dogma as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed?

Does the liturgical text of August 15th pronounce any anathemas against those who disagree?
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 10:39:52 PM »

I find it strange that her tomb wasn't venerated, and there's no tradition concerning it's exact whereabouts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary's_Tomb

See attached photo. By clicking on it, the photo becomes larger.
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 10:41:03 PM »

Quote
It is dogma that she fell asleep.

By what ecumenical council was it declared a dogma?

The same one that declared her dormition.

Quote
When?
After Chalcedon.

Quote
We all, as St. Paul wrote, died in Adam

I believe he used the present tense.

You used the past tense.

When St. Paul wrote it, the Theotokos had died.

Quote
Are you refering to original sin (as in we all died spiritually when Adam sinned)?
That's what St. Paul is refering to.

Quote
Is that dogma too?
Ancestral sin? Yes.
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 10:42:53 PM »

Quote
This could be speaking of the second coming and when Christ returns those who are alive will be transformed.  A physical death would be meaningless at that moment.

And if the ever virgin Theotokous was full of Grace, never sinned, and wasn't guilty of any "ancestral sin", maybe a physical death would have been meaningless for her.
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2010, 10:43:27 PM »

I find it strange that her tomb wasn't venerated, and there's no tradition concerning it's exact whereabouts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary's_Tomb

See attached photo. By clicking on it, the photo becomes larger.

Thanks. I missed the quoted post: I've been blessed to have visited the Tomb of the Holy Theotokos, and it is very much venerated, even by the Muslims. (btw, I've also visited the Virgin's house in Ephesus).
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« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 10:46:34 PM »

So any liturgical text is as much a dogma as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed?

Depends on what you are talking about: the liturgical text wouldn't contradict the Creed.

In the case in point, the only statement we have on her ultimate fate is on the Dormition.  Which says "Dormition."

Quote
Does the liturgical text of August 15th pronounce any anathemas against those who disagree?
Doesn't have to. It's not needed.
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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 10:48:33 PM »

Quote
This could be speaking of the second coming and when Christ returns those who are alive will be transformed.  A physical death would be meaningless at that moment.

And if the ever virgin Theotokous was full of Grace, never sinned, and wasn't guilty of any "ancestral sin", maybe a physical death would have been meaningless for her.
It would have meant that Christ did not assume human nature, was not the son of Adam, and consequenty not the New Adam, and human nature was not redeemed.

Btw, none of us is guilty of 'ancestral sin.' Except Adam and Eve.
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2010, 10:52:35 PM »

Quote
It is dogma that she fell asleep.

By what ecumenical council was it declared a dogma?

When?

Dogmas do not have to be declared by an ecumenical council. It is declared by the liturgical texts of August 15.

Michael, the hymnography for the feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God is full of references to her death. Lex orandi, lex credendi, as others have said. The physical death of the Mother of God is not a theologoumenon (theological opinion) or an "optional belief". She is the most honoured of all creation, more glorious than even the angels, but she was still fully human and mortal, and subject to death as we all are. Some examples from Vespers and Matins for August 15:

O marvellous wonder! The source of life is laid in a grave, and the tomb becomes a ladder to heaven. Be glad, O Gethsemane, the holy shrine of the Mother of God. Let us the faithful cry, with Gabriel as our captain: Hail, Lady Full of grace! The Lord is with you, who grants the world through you His great mercy.

The all-honoured choir of the wise Apostles was wondrously assembled to bury with glory your immaculate body, O all-praised Mother of God. With them the multitudes of Angels also raised their song as they reverently praised your Translation, which we celebrate with faith.

Your birth-giving, conception was without seed; your Dormition, death was without corruption. A double wonder ran to meet a wonder, O Mother of God; for how could one who knew not wedlock suckle a babe, yet remain pure? How could God’s Mother be carried as a corpse, yet exude sweet fragrance? So with the Angel we cry to you: Hail, Lady full of grace.

You have carried off prizes of victory against nature, pure Virgin, in bearing God; yet, imitating your Maker and Son, you submit to nature’s laws; and so dying, you rise with your Son and live forever.

Knowing you, all-blameless Lady, to be a mortal woman, but beyond nature Mother of God, with fearful hands the illustrious Apostles touched you, as you blazed with glory, gazing on you as the Tabernacle that had received God.

A company of theologians from the ends of the earth and a multitude of Angels hastened to Zion at an all-powerful command, that they might fittingly minister at your burial, Sovereign Mistress.

Death has become for you, pure Virgin, a crossing to an eternal and better life, translating you from one which perishes to one which is truly divine and without change, to gaze in joy upon your Son and Lord.

Strange marvel it was to see the living heaven of the universal King going down below the hollows of the earth. How wonderful are Your works! Glory to Your power, O Lord!

If her fruit, who is beyond understanding, because of whom she was called Heaven, willingly underwent burial as a mortal, how will she refuse burial, who bore Him without wedlock?

The inspired tongues of men who were theologians, resonant with the Spirit, cried out louder than trumpets the burial hymn for the Mother of God: Hail, unsullied source of God’s incarnation, origin of life and salvation for all.

Life dawned from you without loosing the keys of your virginity. How then has your spotless tabernacle, source of life, become a partaker in the experience of death?

Once the sacred enclosure of life, you have found eternal life; for through death you, who gave birth to Life in person, have passed over to life.

Beyond and above the understanding are the wonders of the Ever-virgin and Mother of God. Going to dwell in the tomb, she made it a paradise. Standing beside this tomb today, we sing with joy: O works of the Lord, bless the Lord and exalt Him above all forever.


Exaposteilarion of the feast:

O Apostles, assembled here from the ends of the earth, bury my body in Gethsemane; and you, my Son, receive my spirit.

It is abundantly clear from this hymnography that the Orthodox Church teaches that the Mother of God was mortal, died a human death, and was buried. Some time later, her body did vanish from the tomb and was taken to heaven, and this, too, is spoken of in the hymns. But she died first.
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2010, 11:00:24 PM »

I find it strange that her tomb wasn't venerated, and there's no tradition concerning it's exact whereabouts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary's_Tomb

See attached photo. By clicking on it, the photo becomes larger.

Thanks. I missed the quoted post: I've been blessed to have visited the Tomb of the Holy Theotokos, and it is very much venerated, even by the Muslims. (btw, I've also visited the Virgin's house in Ephesus).

If the tomb was known and venerated by the early Church,  it's strange that Saint Epiphanius of Salamis (in 377 A.D.) would say that "no one knew whether Mary had died or not."

You can also find that on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary
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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2010, 11:03:12 PM »

I find it strange that her tomb wasn't venerated, and there's no tradition concerning it's exact whereabouts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary's_Tomb

See attached photo. By clicking on it, the photo becomes larger.

Thanks. I missed the quoted post: I've been blessed to have visited the Tomb of the Holy Theotokos, and it is very much venerated, even by the Muslims. (btw, I've also visited the Virgin's house in Ephesus).

If the tomb was known and venerated by the early Church,  it's strange that Saint Epiphanius of Salamis (in AD 377) would say that "no one knew whether Mary had died or not."

You can also find that on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary

When was Saint Epiphanius considered infallible, whose opinion could overturn the Tradition of the Church? I must have missed that....
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2010, 11:04:30 PM »

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Michael, the hymnography for the feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God is full of references to her death

I know it's taught that she died, I was asking if that teaching is dogma.
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2010, 11:08:33 PM »

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Michael, the hymnography for the feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God is full of references to her death

I know it's taught that she died, I was asking if that teaching is dogma.

If it's in the hymnography (and, in this case, so profusely), then how can it be OK for an Orthodox christian to disbelieve it? Not being able to understand a teaching out of honest ignorance is one thing, and can be remedied. Wilful rejection of a clear teaching is quite another matter, and a serious one.
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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2010, 11:08:57 PM »

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When was Saint Epiphanius considered infallible, whose opinion could overturn the Tradition of the Church? I must have missed that....

I didn't suggest that he was infallible, only that this 4th century saint seemed ignorant of the existence of this tomb.

Does Wikipeia give any information on how long it's been venerated?
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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2010, 11:10:49 PM »

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If it's in the hymnography (and, in this case, so profusely), then how can it be OK for an Orthodox christian to disbelieve it? Not being able to understand a teaching out of honest ignorance is one thing, and can be remedied. Wilful rejection of a clear teaching is quite another matter, and a serious one.

So you're saying that all teaching is dogma, is that correct?

Would all the Fathers, Bishops, Metropolitans, and Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church agree with you on that?
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« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2010, 11:25:34 PM »

Michael, I'm not sure of the reason for your apparent insistence on separating doctrine and dogma. Could you please elaborate?
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« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2010, 11:29:05 PM »

Humble yourself!  You are a catechumen, you don't get to decide what the Church teaches and what it does not.  The Holy Church teaches that the Mother of God experienced bodily death.  We do not lie in our liturgical hymns, but preach the truth boldly!  Inquiring is all well and good, but you appear to be going beyond that.
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« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2010, 11:35:37 PM »

Michael, I'm not sure of the reason for your apparent insistence on separating doctrine and dogma. Could you please elaborate?

I want to understand the difference, if there is any.

Are you saying there's not?

As to the Dormition, I've never been able to reconcile the Blessed Virgin's death and resurrection with the order given in 1 Cor. 15 (Christ the first fruits of the dead, then those who are Christ's at the second coming.)

It's much easier for me to believe that she never died, then it is for me to try and fit her resurrection into what Paul says there.

(And as I find myself questioning her death, any distinction between doctrine and dogma is relevant to me here.)
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« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2010, 11:38:55 PM »

Christ was resurrected before His Mother.  And what of the resurrection of Lazarus?
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« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2010, 11:40:52 PM »

Humble yourself!  You are a catechumen, you don't get to decide what the Church teaches and what it does not.  The Holy Church teaches that the Mother of God experienced bodily death.  We do not lie in our liturgical hymns, but preach the truth boldly!  Inquiring is all well and good, but you appear to be going beyond that.

And you appear to be saying that all teaching is equally authoritative.

In all humility, I again ask you if you're really saying that there's no difference between doctrine and dogma?

Christ was resurrected before His Mother.  And what of the resurrection of Lazarus?

I always assumed that Lazarus was merely raised to mortal life.

Are you saying that he was raised "incorruptible," and received "a spirtual body" (as Paul was talking about in 1 Cor. 15)?
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« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2010, 11:43:30 PM »

Good Night.
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« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2010, 11:53:02 PM »

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And you appear to be saying that all teaching is equally authoritative.

In all humility, I again ask you if you're really saying that there's no difference between doctrine and dogma?

What is read, sung and chanted in Orthodox services is nothing less than the authoritative teaching of the Church. We pray what we believe, and we believe what we pray. The distinction you are seeking to make here between doctrine and dogma suggests to me that you are taking a reductionist, minimalist approach to what the Church teaches. "If it's dogma, I have to believe it, if it's doctrine, I don't need to believe all of it".

Quote
Humble yourself!  You are a catechumen, you don't get to decide what the Church teaches and what it does not.  The Holy Church teaches that the Mother of God experienced bodily death.  We do not lie in our liturgical hymns, but preach the truth boldly!  Inquiring is all well and good, but you appear to be going beyond that.

Ionnis' advice is blunt, but completely correct. Sure, there are parts of Orthodox teaching which newcomers to the Church find hard to understand or accept at first, but, with time, do get to accept and understand them. Have you talked to your priest about it?
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« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2010, 11:53:18 PM »

You are right, Lazarus was not raised incorruptible.  That was a terrible example on my part.  Forgive me, brother.  

Good night.  
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« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2010, 12:12:06 AM »

You are right, Lazarus was not raised incorruptible.  That was a terrible example on my part.  Forgive me, brother.  

Good night.  

Forgive me Father, if I seemed argumentative.

But before I turn in, let me state my problem more clearly.

If Christ was the first to be raised inncorruptible, and if Mary was next, why does Paul say that the next will be "those who are Christ's at His coming"?

I've been drawn to Orthodoxy because I believed that it's the Church of scripture, but if I have to reject scripture to be Orthodox, I'd be damning myself.

Either there's a way to fit the hymnology of Aug. 15th into 1 Cor. 15, the hymnology isn't dogma, or I'll never be Orthodox.

Good night.

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« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2010, 12:23:01 AM »

Michael, I admit I do not have an answer, but I am sure some of the more intellegent here will be able to help you.  I am a fairly simply person. I am glad that you were able to be more specific in your concern though, as I said, I am confident that someone will be able to help you. 

For me, there isn't a doubt in my mind that the Holy Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ, the Church spoken of in the Holy Scriptures, and so such questions do not disturb me, even if I don't have an answer to them.  But for you, who are still inquiring into the Church of Christ, I can see how these issues could be very important.  Forgive me if I have minimized the anxiety that these sorts of questions cause you, but I still implore you (and myself) to be humble when we approach Christ and His Holy Church.

John

P.S.  I am not a priest or a monk.  I assume you mistook me for one based upon my profile picture. That is a photograph of holy Elder Paisios of Mount Athos.  Forgive me.
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« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2010, 12:27:31 AM »

I did assume you were a priest, and I'm sorry.

I forgive you, and I ask you to forgive me.

Good night (and God Bless.)
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« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2010, 12:27:59 AM »

How do the Fathers of the Church interpret the Scriptural passage which Michael cites?

It seems odd that the West also apparently believed Mary died well in to the Middle Ages, yet now some think she didn't. I suppose someone will have written a study on this?
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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2010, 12:32:56 AM »


I don't think he's a spiritual Father...not sure about the earthly though....


You are right, Lazarus was not raised incorruptible.  That was a terrible example on my part.  Forgive me, brother.  

Good night.  

Forgive me Father, if I seemed argumentative.

But before I turn in, let me state my problem more clearly.

If Christ was the first to be raised inncorruptible, and if Mary was next, why does Paul say that the next will be "those who are Christ's at His coming"?

I've been drawn to Orthodoxy because I believed that it's the Church of scripture, but if I have to reject scripture to be Orthodox, I'd be damning myself.

Either there's a way to fit the hymnology of Aug. 15th into 1 Cor. 15, the hymnology isn't dogma, or I'll never be Orthodox.

Good night.


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