Author Topic: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...  (Read 6742 times)

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Offline 88Devin12

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Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« on: May 05, 2009, 11:00:31 AM »
What is the liturgy like in the Western Rite? Is it much different than the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? How about the icons? Are they much more western?

Just to give you some background, I was thinking about the Western Rite, and if it grows a lot more, it's architecture could be different than that of eastern churches. I was thinking about just drawing up some possibilities, but didn't know if I ought to use pre-schism western churches or not. I didn't know if the pre-schism western basilicas worked well with the Western Rite liturgy or whether the eastern cross-in-square plan fits the liturgy better...


Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2009, 11:37:32 AM »
What is the liturgy like in the Western Rite? Is it much different than the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? How about the icons? Are they much more western?

The Western rite (of the AOC) is basically just theologically corrected Anglicanism. The liturgy is a revised version of that of the Book of Common Prayer, architecture is western, although I think most use Byzantine iconography.

Offline Papist

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2009, 12:27:49 PM »
I would love to visit one of these parishes. Its too bad that we don't have one in New Mexico. :(
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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2009, 12:31:19 PM »
What is the liturgy like in the Western Rite? Is it much different than the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? How about the icons? Are they much more western?

Just to give you some background, I was thinking about the Western Rite, and if it grows a lot more, it's architecture could be different than that of eastern churches. I was thinking about just drawing up some possibilities, but didn't know if I ought to use pre-schism western churches or not. I didn't know if the pre-schism western basilicas worked well with the Western Rite liturgy or whether the eastern cross-in-square plan fits the liturgy better...


The biggest difference I've seen is that there is no iconostasis (there is a communion rail, but no rood screen) and the altar is up against the wall.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2009, 12:33:04 PM »
What is the liturgy like in the Western Rite? Is it much different than the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? How about the icons? Are they much more western?

Just to give you some background, I was thinking about the Western Rite, and if it grows a lot more, it's architecture could be different than that of eastern churches. I was thinking about just drawing up some possibilities, but didn't know if I ought to use pre-schism western churches or not. I didn't know if the pre-schism western basilicas worked well with the Western Rite liturgy or whether the eastern cross-in-square plan fits the liturgy better...


The biggest difference I've seen is that there is no iconostasis (there is a communion rail, but no rood screen) and the altar is up against the wall.
Just like the set up for a Tridentine Mass.  :)
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2009, 12:45:56 PM »
So the layout of the church would pretty much be suited for the typical pre-schism western church?

« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 12:48:49 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Michał

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2009, 12:55:32 PM »
So the layout of the church would pretty much be suited for the typical pre-schism western church?

The layout of the church in most of WRO parishes is rather in "the best we could afford" style. ;)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 01:24:41 PM by Michał »

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2009, 02:40:08 PM »
Well I mean for when/if the Western Rite becomes larger and the parishes become more developed.

Offline Reader KevinAndrew

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2009, 09:30:48 PM »
What is the liturgy like in the Western Rite? Is it much different than the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? How about the icons? Are they much more western?

Just to give you some background, I was thinking about the Western Rite, and if it grows a lot more, it's architecture could be different than that of eastern churches. I was thinking about just drawing up some possibilities, but didn't know if I ought to use pre-schism western churches or not. I didn't know if the pre-schism western basilicas worked well with the Western Rite liturgy or whether the eastern cross-in-square plan fits the liturgy better...


The biggest difference I've seen is that there is no iconostasis (there is a communion rail, but no rood screen) and the altar is up against the wall.


Many of the WR churches have altars that are free-standing. Ours is one like that. Regarding the rood screen, most WR churches just don't have the money or space for it. If we're fortunate later to have the space and the funds, we'll have one.

Offline Ebor

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 11:51:26 AM »
There are some threads on the forum addressing the point that a rood screen is not the same as an iconostasis.  I'll try to look for them later. 

WR are still pretty thin on the ground, and it seems to me that there hasn't been much umm growth in that department.   :-\
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Offline StGeorge

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2009, 12:22:06 PM »
I've only been to one Western Rite Orthodox church.  They did not have their own church structure, so the interior was not ideal.  I remember that they had a Christ icon and I think a Theotokos icon near the altar.  In the back of the church, they had a place to light beeswax candles (just like an Eastern church).  The Liturgy offered was the Liturgy of St. Gregory, basically the Tridentine Latin Mass in English and with some alterations.  They used unleavened bread and distributed the Eucharist by intinction (dipping the Bread in the Wine).  The vestments used by priest and servers were Latin, similiar if not the same as the traditional vestments of the Latin Church.  I did not see any statues, and the people made the sign of the cross Greek-style.   

 

Offline Michał

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2009, 01:31:16 PM »
Well I mean for when/if the Western Rite becomes larger and the parishes become more developed.

St Augustine's in Denver is quite a developed WRO parish. I reccomend photographs availabe on their website (http://www.staugustinedenver.org).
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 01:31:37 PM by Michał »

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2009, 05:14:41 AM »
I really like the Western rite Orthodox churches. It was my first contact with Orthodoxy. The liturgy is beautiful and, I can genuflect!
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2009, 10:24:05 AM »
Essentially it comes in two versions, Tridentine Mass either in Latin or more often in 'thou' English (St Augustine's, Denver is a lovely example) and US 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer (what most Antiochian Western Riters are... the Mass is that Communion service retrofitted with Tridentine-like additions like minor propers), both with varying necessary corrections (no filioque) and likewise varying self-byzantinisations (liturgical fans on display behind the altar).
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2009, 02:38:39 PM »
Essentially it comes in two versions, Tridentine Mass either in Latin or more often in 'thou' English (St Augustine's, Denver is a lovely example) and US 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer (what most Antiochian Western Riters are... the Mass is that Communion service retrofitted with Tridentine-like additions like minor propers), both with varying necessary corrections (no filioque) and likewise varying self-byzantinisations (liturgical fans on display behind the altar).
Any specific reason as to why they opted for the Anglican book of common prayer?
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2009, 10:28:21 AM »
Because most of them used to be Episcopalians.
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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2009, 10:30:05 AM »
Well I mean for when/if the Western Rite becomes larger and the parishes become more developed.

St Augustine's in Denver is quite a developed WRO parish. I reccomend photographs availabe on their website (http://www.staugustinedenver.org).

We were blessed to have Fr. David Lynch, the former pastor of St. Augustine, retire to our parish.  May his memory be eternal!
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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2009, 11:44:13 AM »
Essentially it comes in two versions, Tridentine Mass either in Latin or more often in 'thou' English (St Augustine's, Denver is a lovely example) and US 1928 Anglican Book of Common Prayer (what most Antiochian Western Riters are... the Mass is that Communion service retrofitted with Tridentine-like additions like minor propers), both with varying necessary corrections (no filioque) and likewise varying self-byzantinisations (liturgical fans on display behind the altar).
Byzantinisations?  :(
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2009, 11:45:49 AM »
Byzantinisations?  :(
Kind of like Latinizations, without all the Papal infallibility.  ;) :-*

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2009, 11:48:33 AM »
Byzantinisations?  :(
Kind of like Latinizations, without all the Papal infallibility.  ;) :-*
Haha. I know. I just love the idea of a Western Rite Orthodoxy and would love to see it be as genuinely Western as possible. Of course, I have no say in this matter, but if I was supreme dictator... LOL
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2009, 11:50:47 AM »
Haha. I know. I just love the idea of a Western Rite Orthodoxy and would love to see it be as genuinely Western as possible. Of course, I have no say in this matter, but if I was supreme dictator... LOL
I thought you'd like that.

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2009, 12:44:37 PM »
Of course, I have no say in this matter, but if I was supreme dictator...

Supreme Pontiff???

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2009, 12:47:56 PM »
Of course, I have no say in this matter, but if I was supreme dictator...

Supreme Pontiff???
LOL.
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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2009, 02:40:33 PM »
Because most of them used to be Episcopalians.
O.K. well, that explains it! What about the liturgy of Saint Tikhon?
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Offline Gabriel

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2009, 02:46:37 PM »
Because most of them used to be Episcopalians.
O.K. well, that explains it! What about the liturgy of Saint Tikhon?

That's the modified Anglican Book of Common Prayer with a few changes to bring it in line with Orthodox theology.  Removal of filioque, stronger epiclesis, etc.

They named it after him out of honor, I believe.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2009, 03:36:45 PM »
Because most of them used to be Episcopalians.
O.K. well, that explains it! What about the liturgy of Saint Tikhon?

That's the modified Anglican Book of Common Prayer with a few changes to bring it in line with Orthodox theology.  Removal of filioque, stronger epiclesis, etc.

They named it after him out of honor, I believe.
Hmm O.K. But I guess it would have made more sense (to me) if an Old Roman Rite liturgy were to be used rather than a Protestant version of the Roman mass (Book of Common Prayer). Maybe my reasoning is slow to comprehend  ::). Although, I know the liturgy of Saint Gregory is the one typically used by the WRO under the ACOA. Why not just use this version of the ancient Roman Mass wherever the WRO function?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 03:56:19 PM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline seabeau

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2009, 03:49:24 PM »
The Western Rite movement started in England, I think that is the reason we use the modified Anglican mass.
Most of the early Western rite people were former Episcopalians. However, it seems like most of the people being drawn into the church are former RC and Protestants.

For me the WR Church is my neighborhood Orthodox Church, it is a long drive to an Eastern Rite Church.

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2009, 03:53:17 PM »
The Western Rite movement started in England, I think that is the reason we use the modified Anglican mass.
Most of the early Western rite people were former Episcopalians. However, it seems like most of the people being drawn into the church are former RC and Protestants.

For me the WR Church is my neighborhood Orthodox Church, it is a long drive to an Eastern Rite Church.

That makes sense. Is that where you now attend?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 03:57:09 PM by ChristusDominus »
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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2009, 03:55:38 PM »
Because most of them used to be Episcopalians.
O.K. well, that explains it! What about the liturgy of Saint Tikhon?

That's the modified Anglican Book of Common Prayer with a few changes to bring it in line with Orthodox theology.  Removal of filioque, stronger epiclesis, etc.

They named it after him out of honor, I believe.
Hmm O.K. But I guess it would have made more sense (to me) if an Old Roman Rite liturgy were to be used rather than a Protestant version of the Roman mass (Book of Common Prayer). Maybe my reasoning is slow to comprehend  ::). Although, I know the liturgy of Saint Gregory is the one typically used by the WRO under the ACOA. Why not just use this version of the ancient Roman Mass everywhere that the WRO function?

The Orthodox Missal contains both: the DL of St. Gregory stems originally from a request from the Church of what would become Czechoslovakia to the Church of Russia for approval of Western rites (the Czechoslovak Church was all Western until the 30's I believe).  The DL of St. Tikhon comes from his request that the Holy Synod review the BCP as the basis of a WRO.  The the time the Episcopalians were still the dominant group in America, and had a hand (actually full hands) in the Orthodox getting into the US (that had a hand in what became the Antiochian Archdiocese splitting off from the Russian Archdiocese).  The first priest for the parish that the GOA traces itself to was brought by the Protestant Episcopal church.
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Offline seabeau

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2009, 04:12:00 PM »
Yes,
St Michael Church in California, I have been there for several years.

Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2009, 10:40:16 AM »
Well I mean for when/if the Western Rite becomes larger and the parishes become more developed.

St Augustine's in Denver is quite a developed WRO parish. I reccomend photographs availabe on their website (http://www.staugustinedenver.org).

That is a very beautiful church but I am curious; the organ and what seems to be the choir loft are above the altar. That seems a little strange since if the choir is up there, they wouldn't be able to see the service.

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2009, 10:46:55 AM »
Probably a secondhand Protestant building.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2009, 01:59:58 PM »
I believe it used to be a Protestant Church.
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2009, 02:47:14 PM »
Yeah, that makes sense.

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Re: Western Rite - Liturgy, Icons, and Architecture...
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2009, 11:15:17 AM »
I believe it used to be a Protestant Church.
It was built originally as a Lutheran church.