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Offline David Young

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Icon Question
« on: May 05, 2009, 05:12:35 AM »
Can anyone explain to me what this icon represents? A picture of it was given to me by a friend, and I rather liked it, so I have inserted it into the front of a Bible, but I should like to gain a better understanding of it. (It gets bigger if you click on it.)

« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 05:13:51 AM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2009, 04:12:53 PM »
I've never seen the icon before, but I'm bumping the thread because I'm also interested in the answer.  ;D
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Offline Orest

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2009, 06:26:45 PM »
Sorry this is not an Eastern Orthodox Icon.

The symbolism and portral style is just all wrong.  For example, missing the proper inscription in the halo, the wrong colours of red robe respresenting divity and blue cloak representing humanity (God put on humanity) are missing. 
It just looks like contemporary non-Orthodox art to me.

Offline antiderivative

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2009, 06:47:27 PM »
Sorry this is not an Eastern Orthodox Icon.

The symbolism and portral style is just all wrong.  For example, missing the proper inscription in the halo, the wrong colours of red robe respresenting divity and blue cloak representing humanity (God put on humanity) are missing. 
It just looks like contemporary non-Orthodox art to me.


It's a Coptic (Oriental) Orthodox icon. I do know that I have seen icons (Eastern Orthodox) of Jesus without the "O W N" in the halo.
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Offline stashko

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2009, 06:51:29 PM »
Do eastern orthodox icon depict The Lord with the open wounds like this as well.. i never seen one... ??? ???
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline soufliotiki

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2009, 08:13:14 PM »
Do eastern orthodox icon depict The Lord with the open wounds like this as well.. i never seen one... ??? ???

Hi, again I find myself posting a link to a parallel thread in another forum. - not to advertise that forum over this one but perhaps to provide information discussed there as a basis for discussion on this forum:

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5936
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2009, 11:43:43 AM »
Do eastern orthodox icon depict The Lord with the open wounds like this as well.. i never seen one... ??? ???
My parish has one of Christ on the cross, and He is depicted with open wounds. Other than that, I have not seen wounds. It stands to reason that an icon of Christ showing Himself to St. Thomas would show the wounds, but I have not seen such an icon. Does one exist?
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2009, 11:54:01 AM »
That is a Coptic icon of St. Abba Bishoy who was an Egyptian Desert monk. The icon depicts St. Bishoy washing the feet of our Lord Jesus Christ when the Lord appeared to him in the desert.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Bishoy


« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 11:58:03 AM by Andrew21091 »

Offline David Young

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2009, 05:16:08 PM »
Many thanks! That seems to answer my question. The friend who gave me the picture of the icon did spend some years working as a schoolteacher in the Middle East - Lebanon, I think - and it may be that his sojourn and travels in those parts brought him to this icon. He ended his exemplary life as a licensed "reader" in the Anglican Church in Wales.
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2009, 11:22:16 PM »
Sorry this is not an Eastern Orthodox Icon.

The symbolism and portral style is just all wrong.  For example, missing the proper inscription in the halo, the wrong colours of red robe respresenting divity and blue cloak representing humanity (God put on humanity) are missing.

This is silly. The symbolism is not "all wrong." Symbolism by nature is subjective; it cannot be right or wrong. It is simply the case that the symbolism employed in Coptic Orthodox iconography is informed by Coptic culture.
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2009, 11:27:19 PM »
Do eastern orthodox icon depict The Lord with the open wounds like this as well.. i never seen one... ??? ???

This feature of the icon would make sense to one who was aware of the story of St Pishoi. St Pishoi's literal/physical encounter with the Lord Christ began as an encounter with an old man who was neglected by the rest of the monks despite his cry for their service. This old man was in actual fact Christ Himself, and He revealed Himself to St Pishoi as such by the display of His crucifixion wounds.

Again, for the sake of emphasis: the display of crucifixion wounds in this icon uniquely relates to the life of the very Saint who is the subject of the icon in the first place.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2009, 11:53:48 PM »
EA,

I know that one or two videos have been produced depicting the life of this saint.  I recall seeing one a couple of years ago.  Do you know if there is a place on the internet where one can see it?

Offline Salpy

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2009, 12:37:56 AM »
I'm pretty sure St. Pishoi lived before Chalcedon.  Is he not a saint in the EO Churches?

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2009, 12:56:55 AM »
I'm sure there is some video on his life; he is a very popular Saint in the Coptic Church. I'll do a search some time later to see what I can come up with.

And yes, he is also a Saint in the EO Church. He goes by the name St Paisios, I believe.
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Offline stashko

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2009, 04:48:54 AM »
Do eastern orthodox icon depict The Lord with the open wounds like this as well.. i never seen one... ??? ???

This feature of the icon would make sense to one who was aware of the story of St Pishoi. St Pishoi's literal/physical encounter with the Lord Christ began as an encounter with an old man who was neglected by the rest of the monks despite his cry for their service. This old man was in actual fact Christ Himself, and He revealed Himself to St Pishoi as such by the display of His crucifixion wounds.

Again, for the sake of emphasis: the display of crucifixion wounds in this icon uniquely relates to the life of the very Saint who is the subject of the icon in the first place.


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Offline Salpy

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2009, 06:41:18 PM »
I posted the life of St. Pishoi in the Lives of the Saints thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13801.msg321922.html#msg321922

Offline David Young

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2011, 04:46:12 PM »
These wall paintings in an Orthodox church in Lagia (Peleponnese) struck me as resembling the Bayeux tapestry, or carvings at churches like Daglingworth (England) from before 1066, more than the usual Greek iconography. Any comments?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 04:48:32 PM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline Orest

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2011, 12:23:21 PM »
This explains the difference between an icon of the Orthodox Church and a religious portrait:
http://www.pravmir.com/what%e2%80%99s-the-difference-between-an-icon-and-a-portrait/

Offline David Young

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2012, 11:56:55 AM »
Can anyone comment on this icon? - the gestures, the facial expression, the icongraphic meanings, etc?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 11:57:26 AM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2012, 02:00:22 PM »
Hey, welcome back David! We've missed ya ;)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 02:00:38 PM by Ortho_cat »

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2012, 02:02:05 PM »
Can anyone comment on this icon? - the gestures, the facial expression, the icongraphic meanings, etc?

It's King David, looking up to Heaven. I can't quite make out the words on the scroll, sorry.
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Offline David Young

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2012, 03:18:27 PM »
I can't quite make out the words on the scroll, sorry.

Psalm 113, "From the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, the Lord's name is to be praised." (So said the Greek icon-seller who sold it to me, and once he said it, the letters fell into place and are obviously that verse.)

The green circle - is it a representation of the sun? a sun-dial? something else of religious significance?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 03:18:52 PM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline David Young

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2012, 03:22:18 PM »
Hey, welcome back David! We've missed ya ;)

Thank you. And I even had an hour with a bishop! (I think the correct words are Byzantine Catholic, but they regard themselves as Orthodox.) All the icons on sale are in Greek, imported from Greece: if you want one in Arbëresh, you have to order it specially from an iconographer  :(, though there are some in churches.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 03:23:04 PM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2012, 03:38:48 PM »

The green circle - is it a representation of the sun? a sun-dial? something else of religious significance?

It represents the voice of God, I believe. In some icons a hand is shown indicating God's approval or blessing.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2012, 04:35:10 PM »
The green circle - is it a representation of the sun? a sun-dial? something else of religious significance?
It represents the voice of God, I believe. In some icons a hand is shown indicating God's approval or blessing.

It can also be found in icons of Theophany, the Annunciation, and Pentecost as God and sending the Holy Spirit.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline LBK

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2012, 04:44:32 PM »
Can anyone comment on this icon? - the gestures, the facial expression, the icongraphic meanings, etc?

To add to what others have written, Prophet David is looking up at the presence of God (the motif in the upper right-hand corner), in humility, and with a hand raised in supplication and deference to the Divine. This motif can also be rendered with a hand blessing within it, or, in the case of NT saints, Christ Himself may be seen blessing the saint. The radiant blue circle represents the uncreated light and glory of God, and is known as a mandorla. The deferential, supplicatory raised hand of saints and righteous ones is an extremely common feature in iconography.

Quote
It can also be found in icons of Theophany, the Annunciation, and Pentecost as God and sending the Holy Spirit.

And by no means only in these icons. Countless other icons have this motif.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 04:46:18 PM by LBK »
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Offline David Young

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2012, 04:40:34 AM »
On our recent holiday in Greece, my wife and I were struck by the number of times the Prophet Elijah was brought to our minds. Almost the very first village we went to was itself called by that name (see photo for the path to it). Sign-posts, churches... till in the end I bought an icon of him after talking with the monk who welcomes visitors at Nea Filosofou monastery (near Dimitsana). Two questions to you:

1) Why do the vast majority of the icons of him depict him (as in mine) being fed by the raven, rather than his ascension in his chariot to heaven, or his presence at the 'Metamorphosis'/Transfiguration (though these do apepar as well of course)?

2) Why is he such an important and ubiquitous figure in Greece?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 04:41:35 AM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline LBK

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Re: Icon Question
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2012, 05:36:25 AM »
Quote
1) Why do the vast majority of the icons of him depict him (as in mine) being fed by the raven, rather than his ascension in his chariot to heaven, or his presence at the 'Metamorphosis'/Transfiguration (though these do apepar as well of course)?

In my experience, the numbers of icons of Prophet Elijah in the fiery chariot and sitting at the mouth of his cave looking at the raven are about equal, irrespective of regional provenance or age.

The Transfiguration icon is primarily an icon of Christ; the presence of the three apostles and the two prophets is of great theological importance, but the icon is not about them per se.

Quote
2) Why is he such an important and ubiquitous figure in Greece?

For the same reason he is greatly venerated in all the Orthodox world: He is regarded as a protector against fire, and is also invoked during times of drought to intercede for rain to fall. There are specific litany petitions which ask for his intercession which can be read during a Divine Liturgy during times of fire, drought or flood.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 05:39:05 AM by LBK »
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