OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 21, 2014, 05:25:39 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Sign of the Cross  (Read 8178 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« on: October 31, 2003, 01:55:41 AM »

I thought this article posted by Nik at the cafe was very interesting.  thoughts comments?

Quote
The revealing article that follows is from a Roman Catholic periodical, The Pilgrim (Jan.-Feb., 1998, Brooklyn, Missouri).

Not too long ago someone asked me why I make the sign of the Cross from the right to the left. It was pointed out to me that, in the West, it is from the left to the right. I pointed out to this person that in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, the Sign of the Cross was always from the right to the left: “I will go to the right,” “Thine own right hand can save thee,” “Thy right hand is full of righteousness,” and “Thy right hand hath upheld me.” These are but a few references to the right hand as the hand of honor. I am sure that we can all think and quote many more references well known from Scripture. Also, it was the Good thief, who confessed Christ and was crucified with Him on His right side. It is interesting that when the Church was undivided, both East and West shared many things in common; one of them was the Sign of the Cross.

I just recently came across the following information. According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, “In the thirteenth century we find Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) directing that the sign is to be made with three fingers from the forehead to the breast and from the right to the left shoulder. Later the whole hand with fingers extended was used, and the direction changed from the left to the right.” On page 250 of the book The Mass and Vestments of the Catholic Church: Liturgy, Doctrine, History and Archeology, by the Rt. Rev. Monsignor John Walsh, published by Benziger Brothers in New York in 1916 [a renowned Roman Catholic publishing house], the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are included, and it says: “The Sign of the Cross. This is made always with the right hand on the forehead, breast, left and right shoulder, with the following distribution of the formula: “In the name of the Father” on the forehead; “and of the Son” on the breast; “and of the Holy Spirit, Amen,” as the hand passes from the left to the right shoulder. Until the sixteenth century and Pope Pius V [1566-1572], the custom was to carry the hand from the right to the left shoulder, which still continues in the Greek Church [emphasis added by the Roman Catholic editor]. The Pope, bishops, and members of the Carthusian and Dominican Orders follow the primitive arrangement of the fingers in signing the Cross by closing the little and ring fingers of the right hand, and extending the other three. The three extended fingers symbolize the Blessed Trinity and the two folded ones the twofold nature of Christ” (both God and Man). When one reads the reason for Pope Pius V’s decision, we find that the reason was that he was angry with the Eastern Church, and made this decision on the basis of anger and for the purpose of increasing the division of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

After reading this information I began to think that, by making this simple Sign of the Cross, I am making a profession of faith as did the early Christians and Martyrs. . . and the many other Saints who made the Sign of the Cross in the same way, and that while I cannot equal their sanctity or life, I do share with them this symbol of faith of the undivided One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, unchanged until the sixteenth century.
_________________
In Christ,
-Nicholas
Insane Ramblings & Orthodox Ecclesiology

original topic at cafe can be found here:http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1242
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
SamB
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 784

Crates of araq for sale! *hic*


« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2003, 02:46:55 AM »

Sanctimonious nonsense.

Simply note the Oriental Orthodox and the Old Believers, and no more need be said.

If individuals are this keen on playing Wahhabi and pegging down every party with the charge and accusation of having altered "traditional practice" even on the smallest detail and least significant of matters, then the Oriental Orthodox may as well remind the Eastern Orthodox of their having utterly obliterated the entire traditions of three Apostolic Sees, traditions much older than those of Constantinople.  Permit me to say there are enough beard-pulling contests raging on as it is.  Good grief!

In IC XC
Samer
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 02:58:08 AM by SamB » Logged
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2003, 03:40:54 AM »

I'm afraid I'm a bit out of the loop Samer. Could you PM me some details (I don't want a beard pulling contest either).

John.
Logged
Saint Polycarp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 243



« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2003, 08:40:24 AM »

I agree it's much adoo about nothing here. Make the sign of the cross in rememberance of your baptism which ever way your Church's tradition dictates.
Logged

Peace
SamB
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 784

Crates of araq for sale! *hic*


« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2003, 09:43:40 AM »

John, Orientals sign from left to right, and the Old Believers don't use the same finger formation Byzantines today use when signing.

In IC XC
Samer
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,733


"And you shall call his name Jesus..."


WWW
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2003, 01:53:10 PM »

Since Joe quoted the article at Nik's site, I will simply quote myself from that thread:

It would be interesting, I think, to see what Pius V actually wrote regarding his reasons for altering the Sign of the Cross. Nevertheless, while the article is interesting regarding the older Latin practice compared with the regular Greek practice, it doesn't definitively settle the matter for me. The Oriental Orthodox Churches have, to my knowledge, always used the same hand positioning as the Greeks (thumb, index, and middle fingers joined, with the ring and little fingers closed), but from left shoulder to right. This is because the Son of God came down from Heaven (forehead) to earth (somewhere around the belly button) to redeem those who stood condemned (left shoulder) and bring them to salvation (right shoulder).
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.

Please, James, tell us more about women!
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2003, 03:08:45 PM »

It would indeed be interesting to see hitorical evidence for exactly when this practice began Mor.  Was it before or after the monophysites left the Church.

old Believers are schismatics outside the Church.

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2003, 03:10:31 PM »

Sam, when those three Patriarchates left the Church, maintaining their local traditions may not have been possible.  Just look at the uniates for an example of this.  How many uniate churches serve vigils?  etc etc etc

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,733


"And you shall call his name Jesus..."


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2003, 03:23:07 PM »

It would indeed be interesting to see hitorical evidence for exactly when this practice began Mor.  Was it before or after the monophysites left the Church.

old Believers are schismatics outside the Church.

I don't know how monophysites entered the discussion.  My point is about how the Oriental Orthodox make the sign of the Cross, not how monophysites make it.
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.

Please, James, tell us more about women!
SamB
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 784

Crates of araq for sale! *hic*


« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2003, 04:11:55 PM »

Joe, I don't follow.  I am pointing out that it is the Orientals who have maintained the traditions, while the Melchite Chalcedonians lost theirs to the point of losing their own ancient liturgies and being subsumed by the Byzantine Rite.

The Old Believers observe elements of praxis that was originally followed in Russia from the start.  In fact, I understand ROCOR has catered to the niche of Orthodox who wish to follow pre-Nikonian rites.  Old Believers' present separation from the Orthodox has no bearing on the legitimacy of these traditions.  Or are you suggesting they are as improper as the Old Believers saw the "devil's claw"--as they called the three-fingered sign--to be?

In IC XC
Samer
Logged
Frobie
Quasi Vero Monaco
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 633


Rublev's Trinity


WWW
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2003, 04:54:31 PM »

I'm afraid I'm a bit out of the loop Samer. Could you PM me some details (I don't want a beard pulling contest either).

John.


John, we're beard friendly here!
Logged
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2003, 06:19:16 PM »

The oriental "orthodox" are in error as I see it and as I believe the Holy Fathers taught it to put it into just a few words.

Joe Zollars

red words were edited by me, Anastasios
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 07:15:32 PM by anastasios » Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,464


« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2003, 06:28:24 PM »

The oriental "orthodox"...put it into just a few words.

Joe Zollars

Thanks for letting us know, since we didn't already.  

You read it here, folks.  It's on the internet.  Joe said it.  So it must be true. Roll Eyes

edited by Anastasios to clean up Joe's thoughts.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 07:16:30 PM by anastasios » Logged
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2003, 06:31:09 PM »

Whether one believes it or not, this is what Holy Tradition and the Saints of the Church teach.

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
the slave
intolerant of intolerance
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: UGCC
Posts: 810



« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2003, 06:57:12 PM »

Joe - I think it's time you started to think about what you write before you hit the post button.

Your posts in this thread are showing a sad lack of charity and love for your fellow man.
Logged

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."
- St. John Maximovitch
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2003, 07:13:31 PM »

JOE:

It has always been the policy of the board that no poster be forced to accept the Non-Chalcedonians as Orthodox.

However, no one is to refer to them as monphysites or graceless heretics in blanket, sweeping statements.  "The Fathers"? Citations, please.  You can discuss specific issues in the Non-Chalcedonian thread section.  DO NOT ISSUE BLANKET STATEMENTS THOUGH.

This is a thread about liturgical practice.  That predates the schsims.  Don't turn it into a debate about doctrine.

anastasios
ADMIN
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Robert
"Amazing"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,442



« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2003, 07:40:43 PM »

JoeZollars,

Your jokes aren't funny anymore.  I'm not sure if you have some sort of hidden agenda, or maybe you're just a 16 year old getting off watching everyone get pissed off. Either way, cut it out and calm down.

Bobby
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 07:42:42 PM by anastasios » Logged
LatinTrad
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 54


www.unavoce.org www.christendom.edu


« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2003, 07:45:03 PM »

Joe Z,

I think that the points Phil and I made on Nik's forum stand.

To quote St. Thomas More, "I only hope that when your head stops spinning, your face is to the front again."

Please develop a deep prayer life and a careful habit of mind.  These will save you from the instability that has plagued your religious journey from day 1.

God has been good to you--He has "plucked you out" (St. Augustine Wink) and given you a love for Divine things.  Nevertheless, if you continue to go 100 miles an hour in this direction and that, you will end up frustrated and disillusioned, just like our friend logos on that other forum.

LatinTrad

PS--Anastasios, if you think any of this is inappropriate, feel free to edit.
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,464


« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2003, 07:56:08 PM »

Joe - I think it's time you started to think about what you write before you hit the post button.

Your posts in this thread are showing a sad lack of charity and love for your fellow man.

Another book I highly recommend to illustrate this (to everyone, not just Joe) is The Non-Orthodox by Patrick Barnes.  It is very traditionally minded.

And, if you want to nitpick Blessed Augustine, I highly recommend The Place of Blesses Augustine in the Orthodox Church by Fr. Seraphim Rose.
Logged
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2003, 08:21:32 PM »

Anastasios:

I can accept that, but cannont refer to them in good conscience as "Oriental Orthodox" or "Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox."  To do so is, imo, heretical and blasphemous.  

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2003, 08:30:25 PM »

bobby I have not told one joke in this thread.  Anastasios, if you wish to change my posts in order to turn their meaning into something blaspemous, please simply delete the post.  

Feel free to delete this user in fact.  

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
AlaskanOrthodox
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 85


Orthodoxy is Life


« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2003, 08:45:36 PM »

I think Joe is sincere.  Is he right? Are we right?

The underlying issue here is respect for the feelings of others.  We Eastern Orthodox do not like being called "eastern dissidents" by trad Caths, Eastern Catholics do not like being called "uniats",  Oriental Orthodox who desire to be called equally Orthodox should be called by the name they feel they should be called by.  Our principle here should be not founded on a sense of "rightness", but rather on respect and care for the feelings of others.  Dogmas cannot be seperated from human emotion.  One's Church is like one's mother.  When you start talking about one's mother you had better be careful.

I need to learn to be more respectful; Joe needs to and we all do in spite of our pet POV's.

In Christ,

AlaskanOrthodox
Logged
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2003, 08:57:17 PM »

Yes respect is important, however, just as one cannot go up to just any woman on the street and call her mom without insulting one's own mother, one cannot call someone Orthodox who is not.  What of hte various vagante sects who desire to be called Orthodox?  what of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church or the babtist sects tha use the term Orthodox in their title?  are we to call these ORthodox as well?  

Orthodox=Correct Belief and Correct Glory  if one does not have the first they cannot have the second and likewise the first is meaningless without the second.  How can we use the term "Oriental Orthodox" when by doing so we are affirming that we have the same faith as they do and that they give correct glory to God.  To do so is blasphemous.

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2003, 09:21:53 PM »

Joe,

I uphold the traditionalist stance regarding those groups which went into schism with the Eastern Orthodox Church because of the fourth Council of the Church.  The Athonites in thier letter to Patriarch Vartholomaios protesting ecumenically activites with these groups used the term "Non-Chalcedonians" since that has become the more standard usage.  The Athonites (and other traditionalists like me) believe the non-chaleconian churchs to be monophysites, so you are not compromising your faith to call them non-chalcedonians.  From what I can tell this is not offensive to them and you don't have to say they are Orthodox.  

Nektarios
Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,749



« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2003, 09:30:52 PM »

Fanatism : " Excessive irrational zeal, or become a fanatic : a person marked or motivated by an extreme unreasoning enthusiasm for a cause.

From the American Heritage College Dictionary.

I think we all fall victim to this once in a while.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
AlaskanOrthodox
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 85


Orthodoxy is Life


« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2003, 09:51:11 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

My point was to be respectful to the faithful of these Churches in calling them what they wish to be called and not what we think they should be called.  Remember how Christ treated the woman at the well who belonged to a heretical group: the Samaritans.  Now the Oriental Orthodox have more in common with us than difference.  Being traditional does not mean being rude and crass, it however pre-eminently means being full of the Spirit of Christ.  We cannot prove the truth of our positions with a prideful and haughty spirit; we can only prove the state of our diseased soul.

In Christ,

Alexis
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 09:54:30 PM by AlaskanOrthodox » Logged
SamB
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 784

Crates of araq for sale! *hic*


« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2003, 09:57:18 PM »

I haven't read Joe's unedited comments, so I am a little bewildered as to how this thread managed to veer so far out of control and away from the original topic.  May I suggest a reorientation back to the main road or a conclusion to the thread?

In IC XC
Samer
« Last Edit: October 31, 2003, 09:59:20 PM by SamB » Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,749



« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2003, 10:32:52 PM »

Egads, finally a helms-man !

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
carpo-rusyn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 383



« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2003, 11:38:05 PM »

Alaskan Orthodox raises a good point about calling people by the names they'd like to be called.  So could we drop the word "papist"?  It's "RC" or "Catholic" or "Roman Catholic".  When people use the term papist it makes me think of the Know Nothing's from the 19th century.

Ubi caritas Deus ibi est.

Carpo-Rusyn
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,443



« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2003, 12:09:28 AM »

Yes respect is important, however, just as one cannot go up to just any woman on the street and call her mom without insulting one's own mother, one cannot call someone Orthodox who is not.

Well, Joe, come to Baltimore and we can see how many waitresses call you "Hon".

If you have to call the other side of the party "monophysites", then it shows that you can't really think about the issue, because you are engaging in the fallacy (and insult) of pretending you know better what other people think than they themselves do.

You're engaging in self-justification again. You aren't going to win any spiritual points by disrespecting others on Jesus' behalf.

As far as this topic is concerned, it makes me glad to be an Anglican.
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2003, 12:52:12 AM »

Hey, back on the topic of the sign of the Cross:

I remember reading a couple of the Fathers (can't remember who right off hand) and Tertullian to the effect that the early Christians actually traced the sign of the Cross on their foreheads and not from head to belly to shoulders as we do now.

I'm with those who believe the sign of the Cross itself is what matters, not the exact manner in which we make it. Of course, I like the Orthodox way of doing it, especially the symbolism of the way in which the fingers are held.

I sometimes trace it on my forehead or my heart if I am in public and do not want to draw attention to myself.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2003, 03:11:23 AM »

Anastasios:

I can accept that, but cannont refer to them in good conscience as "Oriental Orthodox" or "Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox."  To do so is, imo, heretical and blasphemous.  

Joe Zollars

I did not tell you to refer to them as Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox. I said Non-Chalcedonians.  There is a difference. Or just call each group by its name: Copts. Ethiopians, etc.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2003, 03:12:22 AM »

bobby I have not told one joke in this thread.  Anastasios, if you wish to change my posts in order to turn their meaning into something blaspemous, please simply delete the post.  

Feel free to delete this user in fact.  

Joe Zollars

No Joe, I did not say anything blasphemous.  Even a traditional Orthodox will admit that the charitable reassessment I edited your post to reflect does not compromise the Orthodox faith.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2003, 11:40:35 AM »

Hey!

Don't you all just love the sign of the Cross?

I know I do.

Maybe it's because I used to be an Evangelical; I dunno.

But I love to make the sign of the Cross.

I guess I'm making up for lost time.

Ever notice a difference in how you feel after you make the sign?

I have. There have been times when I was feeling bad, kind of depressed or oppressed or both. Then I made the sign of the Cross and prayed the Jesus Prayer and - wham! - I felt a whole lot better, like a big weight had been lifted off of me.

Praise God for it!
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2003, 12:59:42 PM »

I like to trace the cross on my body, forehead to navel, shoulder to shoulder, kind of like I am holding an invisible marker in my hand, so that it remains long after I have made the sign of the cross. I find this makes a much more indelible mark on me psychologically.

John.
Logged
the slave
intolerant of intolerance
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: UGCC
Posts: 810



« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2003, 10:11:50 AM »

Prodromos

The other thing about that, is that doing it like that, you cannot be hasty and so the realisation of what you are doing strikes home.
Logged

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."
- St. John Maximovitch
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,440



« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2003, 11:43:41 AM »

I was taught, upon becoming an Episcopalian, when the reading of the Gospel is announced to make small crosses with my thumb on my forehead, lips and over my heart.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2003, 10:15:35 PM »

I was taught, upon becoming an Episcopalian, when the reading of the Gospel is announced to make small crosses with my thumb on my forehead, lips and over my heart.

Ebor

I have seen that done by Roman Catholics, as well, and I like it.  Grin
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Hypo-Ortho
Guest
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2003, 11:07:37 PM »

I was taught, upon becoming an Episcopalian, when the reading of the Gospel is announced to make small crosses with my thumb on my forehead, lips and over my heart.

Ebor

I have seen that done by Roman Catholics, as well, and I like it.  Grin

There's supposed to be a silent prayer that goes along with the tracing of a small cross on the forehead, lips and breast:  "Jesus be in my mind, Jesus be on my lips, Jesus be in my heart."  This is (was?) normally done by the priest/deacon proclaiming the Gospel and imitated by the congregation while the choir chanted, "Glory to Thee, O Lord, glory to Thee!"  At least this was done before the NO "reforms" in the Latin Church.  Is it still done?  

On another note, when I pass by the packed Sacred Heart RC Church on my way to my Orthodox church on a Sunday morn in warmer weather, I see people leaving mass early--they are dressed in T-shirts, halter tops, jeans, sneakers and shorty shorts! I look at them in total amazement they they think such dress is befitting divine worship.  Such dressers would not get past the candle desk in my church!

Hypo-Ortho
Logged
carpo-rusyn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 383



« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2003, 11:12:18 PM »

Hypo

Well at least they go.


Carpo-Rusyn
Logged
carpo-rusyn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 383



« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2003, 11:13:45 PM »

Oops!  Yes the tracing of the cross on forhead, lips and heart is still done with the same invocation usually sotto voce.

CR
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,440



« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2003, 03:55:31 PM »

Yes, I was taught the prayer to go with the three crosses as well. And I'm working in getting my children to do them.  But sometimes their coordination is off, I hope that it's the thought that counts here. 8-)

In our church, after the Gospel is announced by the priest, the whole congregation says "Glory to you, Lord Christ."

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
carpo-rusyn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 383



« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2003, 04:32:24 PM »

Ebor

[In our church, after the Gospel is announced by the priest, the whole congregation says "Glory to you, Lord Christ."]

We say, "Glory to you, Lord Jesus Christ".  Cranmer kept the missal open when he was writing the first BCP.

Carpo-Rusyn
Logged
Karamazov
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 280


WWW
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2003, 05:24:20 PM »

I spent several years as a Protestant after leaving the Uniate church in which I was raised.  During those years, one thing I dearly missed was making the sign of the cross!  As Uniates, we crossed ourselves like the Orthodox, except I don't recall being instructed that my pinky and ring finger are to be on the palm of the hand.  As a Protestant, we didn't cross at all!  Don't know why...
Logged
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2003, 04:06:33 AM »

I think it is a case of "if the Catholics do it, it must be wrong" type of attitude. When I try to look at the practice from a Protestant viewpoint, I can't otherwise think of any other reason why it wouldn't be done.

Oh wait a minute, silly me, we didn't do it because the bible doesn't tell us to, and doing it would be adding to the bible Wink

John
Logged
MsGuided
Pharmakolytria
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 478


St. Anastasia


« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2003, 10:29:36 AM »

"Yet another is the series of small Crosses made by the thumb on the forehead, lips and breast just before the Gospel reading at Mass. The sign on the forehead is to show that we believe the Gospel, the sign on the lips is to show that we respect if and desire to speak of it, and the sign on our breast is to show that we love the Gospel and want it kept in our hearts."

http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/sign.html

I thought I heard at one point that the prayer that went along with this was to ask the Lord to open your mind, and open your heart to the words of the Gospel.  Don't really remember, but Hypo's sounds good to me   Smiley

Also on this website (haven't checked into its reliability, but it looks normal to me)

"The Sign of the Cross is made thusly: Using two fingers signifying the two natures of Christ (human and divine) or three fingers signifying the Trinity (Eastern Catholic and Orthodox use):


touch the forehead and say (or pray mentally) "In the name of the Father,"
touch the breastbone or top of the belly and say "and of the Son,"
touch the left shoulder, then right shoulder, as you say "and of the Holy Ghost"3

Eastern Catholics and Orthodox go from right shoulder to left and end by touching their right side, above the hip, to symbolize Christ's being pierced by the sword. We send a visible sign to the world and follow the advice of St. Ephrem of Syria (died A.D. 373):

"Mark all your actions with the sign of the lifegiving Cross. Do not go out from the door of your house till you have signed yourself with the Cross. Do not neglect that sign whether in eating or drinking or going to sleep, or in the home or going on a journey. There is no habit to be compared with it. Let it be a protecting wall round all your conduct, and teach it to your children that they may earnestly learn the custom."

I had not heard of/seen the touching of the right side before.  Anyone familiar?

Kim
Logged

"Forgive me that great love leads me to talking nonsense." Barsanuphius
Tikhon29605
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 542


May I become Thy Tabernacle through Communion.


« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2003, 03:12:10 PM »

Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly, but I attended a Coptic Divine Liturgy once and I thought they made the Sign of the Cross the same way the Greek and Russian Orthdox do from right to left.  Any Coptics here?  Perhaps I had my brain on auto-pilot at the Coptic Church and confused things.  Any help would be appreciated.

Tikhon
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,733


"And you shall call his name Jesus..."


WWW
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2003, 03:54:49 PM »

All Oriental Orthodox Christians make the sign of the Cross from left shoulder to right shoulder.
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.

Please, James, tell us more about women!
Edwin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2003, 02:12:45 PM »

One minor point re the Episcopal "Glory to you, Lord Christ." Cranmer's liturgy actually had "Glory to thee, O Lord" and "Praise be to thee, O Christ" before and after respectively, if I remember correctly. This was changed in the 1979 American BCP and in other "Alternative Service Books" and revised Prayer Books adopted around the same time in other parts of the Anglican Comunion. A minor issue, of course.

In Christ,

Edwin
Logged

NULL
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2003, 06:02:48 PM »

Quote
MsGuided: I had not heard of/seen the touching of the right side before.  Anyone familiar?

I must admit I have never heard of that either.

I've also never seen anyone in an Orthodox Church do that.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.121 seconds with 77 queries.