the basics

[demetrios]

I really do not know what I am talking about , but could anyone post some good links telling about the basics of non-chalcedonian churches, and the way they work. just general tradition, and who is involved or any useful information, as I would enjoy learning about oriental orthodoxy.

[Mor Ephrem]

Dear Demetrios,

A few good sites that come immediately to mind:

http://www.coptic.net/CopticWeb/
http://sor.cua.edu
http://www.armenianchurch.org

[Mor Ephrem]

Also, please see the OC.Net Portal for a few more links.  And if there is anything more specific you would like, please do not hesitate to ask.

[demetrios]

thank you very much. this should help me get a good start on studdying oriental orthodoxy.

[NDHoosier]

So, Mor Ephrem...when are you joining ROAC?

(Just had to touch the match to the gasoline...)  

[Νεκτάριος]

Since ROAC was brought up is there anything like the uber true genuine Coptic/Ethopian/Syrian/Indian church...sort of like an OO version of ROAC?

[Anastasios]

Nektarios,

The Copts, Ethiopians, and Eritreans are all Old Calendar and "no ecumenism" nonsense, so there are no "true counterparts."

The Syriac Church is down to 125 k members, so it is struggling to survive.

The Indians are in a mess right now but that's over jurisdiction--they aren't battling over the "true version" of the Church.

The Armenians are almost all liberal (I say that half-jokingly as I have several Armenian friends) and they all switched to New Calendar and are super ecumenistic anyway.

Interesting group, the Oriental Orthodox.

anastasios

[Νεκτάριος]

Me?!? What did I do to deserve that Vicki!


Anastasie, Thanks for the info.  I guess if you have been living for hundreds of years in Islamic territory you already have enough to do with your time than start more true churches...

[SamB]

Musical tradition is essential to study of this subject.  

I have two relevant Coptic links:

http://www.tasbeha.org/
http://www.saintmina-holmdel.org/Multimedia/

While it does not belong to the O.O. family, I have a link for the Assyrian Qud'das, which features one of the oldest anaphoras of Christianity.  This is as Islamic and Semitic-sounding as you can get from a Christian tradition.

http://www.cired.org/pdf/raza.html

Look for the liturgical text here:
http://www.cired.org/liturgy/apostles.html

In IC XC
Samer

[hbmincey]

Hello one and all. I am new to this list, and am very interested in Oriental Orthodoxy. I have been researching online for the last couple of months or so, with a particular focus on the Coptic Orthodox Church. There is no established Oriental Orthodox Church in my area (I live in Myrtle Beach,SC), but I recently had the pleasure of attending a Coptic service I found out about online. There is a Coptic service held once a month on the second Saturday at the local Greek Orthodox Church in our area. A Priest comes from a Church out of town to officiate. I was both humbled and awed by the service, and came away thirsty for more. The Priest, Father Misaeil from St. Mary Coptic Orthodox Church in Raleigh NC was very helpful and friendly, and talked to me at length after the Liturgy. Indeed, everyone made me feel comfortable and at home both before and after the service. The liturgy was given in roughly equal parts Arabic, Coptic and English, and a nice Egyptian gentleman helped me follow the service so I would not be totally lost! I am planning to go to the service next month. As I stated above, there is no priest in residence here, and the community is quite small (but growing), and I am just getting to know them. Furthermore, my schedule ( I work 3rd or graveyard shift), makes things problematic as well. So I was wondering if anyone could point me to some good basic books on Oriental Orthodoxy in general, and The Coptic Church in particular as well as how I might obtain such books by either e-mail or snail mail. I ask this as a sincere seeker with an eye towards possible conversion. I have already found one book, "Christianity in the Land of the Pharohs: The Coptic Orthodox Church" by Jill Kamil. I believe that she married a Coptic Christian and then she converted. Any opinions about this book? How about others? Any helpful advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks and may God bless us all.

[Father Peter]

Hi hbmincey

I'd recommend having a look at the forum www.coptichymns.net, it provides a good experience of serious and devout Coptic christians of various ages. I'm on it.

Also there is www.orthodoxbookstore.org where a variety of Coptic books, videos, CD's etc etc are available.

A search at Amazon on Coptic Church also throws up lots of good materials.

The Coptic Orthodox daily prayers are at www.agpeya.org.

Best wishes

Peter Theodore

[hbmincey]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the info, I'll definately follow. If you don't mind me asking, do you have any books you would personally recommend? Also, feel free to call me Ben.


peace.

[Linus7]

Anyone interested in the Non-Chalcedonians should also check out the articles at http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_mono.htm

and the Catholic Encyclopedia articles at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05633a.htm and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03555a.htm .

There are further links provided in those articles that are worth looking into.

[Father Peter]

Anyone interested in the Non-Chalcedonians should give the lies, deception and untruths published at  orthodoxinfo.com a wide berth. It is doing Satan's work.

Likewise I fail to see how someone with a PhD would consider the best source of evidence about what someone believes to be writings by a completely different group of people. If I was asked for pointers to EoO teachings why would I direct people to a Baptist website for instance.

I would respectfully ask you to butt out of this thread Linus if you are going to continue trying to send people to sites whose material is not at all what the OO and especially the Coptic Orthodox, believe.

[Linus7]

peterfarrington:
Anyone interested in the Non-Chalcedonians should give the lies, deception and untruths published at  orthodoxinfo.com a wide berth. It is doing Satan's work.

You should beware of attributing to Satan the work of the Holy Spirit in Christ's Church.

I made no such disparaging comments about the links you posted. I simply posted links without controversial comment.

peterfarrington: Likewise I fail to see how someone with a PhD would consider the best source of evidence about what someone believes to be writings by a completely different group of people. If I was asked for pointers to EoO teachings why would I direct people to a Baptist website for instance.

As you well know, the Baptists did not secede from the Holy Orthodox Church in the 5th century as did the Non-Chalcedonians.

The EO perspective on the Non-Chalcedonians is entirely relevant, and those Catholic Encyclopedia articles are very balanced and informative.

peterfarrington: I would respectfully ask you to butt out of this thread Linus if you are going to continue trying to send people to sites whose material is not at all what the OO and especially the Coptic Orthodox, believe.

Excuse me, but I did not realize this was an exclusively Non-Chalcedonian web site.

In fact, it was my impression that it is primarily an Eastern Orthodox web site with a particular forum dedicated to the discussion of Non-Chalcedonian issues.

Again, I posted my links without any controversial commentary and - it is well worth noting - without accusing any Non-Chalcedonians of "doing Satan's work."

[Father Peter]

This forum is for Non-Chalcedonian discussion, it is not for the subversion of folk who show an interest in Oriental Orthodoxy by suggesting sites which are filled with material that is untrue and full of error.

No-one should be silent if materials are erroneous, why should I be quiet just out of politeness.

The materials at orthodoxinfo are doing Satan's work if they propagate lies, and they do.

[Schultz]

As you well know, the Baptists did not secede from the Holy Orthodox Church in the 5th century as did the Non-Chalcedonians.

Let me flip this for you so your seemingly feeble mind can grasp what Peter is trying to say.  Would you go to an OO site and post articles from them re: the beliefs of the EO church?  Because that's exactly what you're doing here, especially posting articles from a site that would probably think you aren't Orthodox either.  But we don't know that because you won't tell us what communion you belong to.

[Anastasios]

Linus,

This site is an Orthodox site. It's not "primarily Eastern Orthodox" or "primarily Oriental Orthodox".  Its membership is primarily Eastern Orthodox, however.

The stated policy of this site has always been that Eastern and Oriental Orthodox may disagree with one another politely on this board, but may not call each other heretical.  What is allowed are scholarly critques.

In one post above you mention "the EO position" in reference to some articles hosted on orthodoxinfo.com.  I would submit that the "EO position" on this is not unified, but that more EO subscribe to the statements of the joint OO-EO dialogue than those who do not.  Do you read these statements?  Are you aware of the proceedings?

anastasios

[Anastasios]

Schultz,

Please do not ad hominem Linus.  While we may disagree with his POV, it is not right to call him feeble-minded.

Thanks,

anastasios

[Father Peter]

Thinking about this, what sticks in my throat is not the Linus has a difference of opinion, he is entitled to that, but he is insisting that he knows what I believe better than I do.

We are not having a disagreement about which colour is nicer we are having a disagreement about who knows best what I believe. In the end whatever arguments he throws together are nothing more than a clanging gong in the face of the obvious, to everyone else, truth that I and Stavros and Raouf and etc know best what we believe, and it is nothing like the material presented at the so-called Orthodox-Info site or in the case of the articles relating to my Church on NewAdvent.

I do not see how it is academically rigourous to assume, no, insist, that primary sources (me!) have lesser value than an unsympathetic secondary source which the primary sources insist does not understand what it is criticising.

Sheeesh. It would be like me saying that I knew better what Linus thought than Linus and that when Linus posts he doesn't actually represent his own thoughts because I know best what he is thinking. I don't. And a non-OO doesn't know better than an OO what the OO believe.

[Antonious Nikolas]

Amen and Amen!  Well said indeed!

[Father Peter]

Well I'm driving up to Scotland in a few hours for a weeks holiday with my wife's family. My father in law has a wireless network so I'll take my wireless card and my notebook and be on line from time to time.

I'd value prayers for the journey, and for rest and refreshment, and well behaved kids.

I've just taken delivery of the three volume translation of Facundus of Hermione's "Defense of the Three Chapters". He was a leading Chalcedonian bishop from North Africa and led the opposition to any movement on Vigilius' part to condemn the Three Chapters. It's in French so it will take a while, but I'm very interested in the contemporary Chalcedonian support for the Three Chapters, since I know the documents of Constantinople II quite well.

I fully accept that this position was considered heretical after 553 AD, yet it was and is an issue when considering the history of that period since for 100 years these Chalcedonian supporters of the Three Chapters had gone unchallenged by any council in the East or West and represented an entirely acceptable position.

Anyhow, it should be an interesting read. There is a scholarly introduction as well by the Roman Catholic translator.

Peter Theodore

[Antonious Nikolas]

May God keep you and your family safe and the kids calm and comfortable on your journey, my friend.  Peace.

[hbmincey]

Whew!!! I did not mean to start a conflagration!!! I just got back online and I took note of where this thread has gone. Allow me to say that  I have read some material about EO (books by Bishop Ware in particular), as well as having attended EO services and spoken with EO priests. While I am BY NO MEANS an expert or scholar, I have a fair (though basic!!!) grasp of EO.
I can in fact tell you that my studies in EO have been one of the major factors in me finding the OO Church. I speak only for myself when I say that Oriental Orthodoxy is a choice I have made based simply when all is said and done, on what feels right for me.  I mean no disrespect to anyone when I say this.
From what I have seen and read both from the majority of OO AND EO sources, it seems pretty clear that both profess the same faith. Indeed the fact that the Coptic service I attended was held in a Greek Orthodox Church (as I pointed out in my first post), should in itself speak volumes . I don't think you will find many Catholics, Baptists, Penecostals, Methodists or any others doing the same. I realise that there are many issues to still be worked out between the EO and OO and I am sure mistakes have been made in the past. God is the One that is perfect after all, not us (that's why we have erasers on our pencils!!!). I do feel that given time and with God's guidance, that  the OO and EO will be reconciled. At least thats my hope and prayer.

Peace to all,
Ben.

[jbc1949]

Excuse me if I have an ignorant question to pose, but I had read many years ago in a book on liturgy I found in the local university library that the Coptic Orthodox do not display their Holy Icons except during the Great Lent or perhaps the Pascal Season or both.  Can anyone confirm or deny this?

This question came up a few years ago when I was speaking with an AOC priest.  He had hosted a Coptic priest who held a coptic Vespers in the AOC parish.  The AOC priest told me that the Coptic priest seemed puzzled why the AOC was full of icons.  And it was not during the Lenten or Eastern seasons.

I responded with the information I had remembered reading a few years earlier.  Nevertheless, I couldn't be that sure I got it right!

Thanks

[Raouf]

No...this is incorrect! We Copts use icons and an iconostasis very much like the EO.   You can do a search of coptic churches on the net and many of them have photo galleries which pictures of their temples.  Here is one example:

http://www.lacopts.org/general.php?id=P1281

Here is a link that has some nice Coptic icons:

www.theotokos.org

However, I will say having seen many Russian Churches, that we may not decorate every inch of the Temple with icons as the Russians tend to do.

In Christ,
Raouf

[Stavro]

Excuse me if I have an ignorant question to pose, but I had read many years ago in a book on liturgy I found in the local university library that the Coptic Orthodox do not display their Holy Icons except during the Great Lent or perhaps the Pascal Season or both.  Can anyone confirm or deny this?

As Raouf said, that is not true. I don't know whether the other denominations try to tarnish the orthodox church intentionally or out of ignorance. In any case, Satan only attacks the faithful.
Thanks for asking, jbc 1949, and please let us know if you have further questions.
Peace,
Stavro

[jbc1949]

No...this is incorrect! We Copts use icons and an iconostasis very much like the EO.   In Christ,
Raouf

Well I must be losing it!  I am sure that I read this somewhere.  Could this possibly be true of other non-Chalcedonians?  The Abyssinians for example?

Thanks for the links.  I'll look some up.  I have seen a few Coptic icons before but not as many as the Slavic and Greek style.

JBC

[Stavro]

PF:I'd value prayers for the journey, and for rest and refreshment, and well behaved kids

May the prayers of the saints be with you, and with the "well-behaved "kids.

hbmincey:From what I have seen and read both from the majority of OO AND EO sources, it seems pretty clear that both profess the same faith

The majority of the OO think the same way and that is why our churches do not preach Orthodoxy to EO in the West.
But it seems that the union will be reached on our kneels, by prayers (citing a wise Catholic Priest ).

I do feel that given time and with God's guidance, that  the OO and EO will be reconciled. At least thats my hope and prayer.

We hope so, and we pray for this union.

Thanks Schulz and Anastasios for your honesty.

Peace,
Stavro

[Stavro]

I really do not know what I am talking about , but could anyone post some good links telling about the basics of non-chalcedonian churches, and the way they work. just general tradition, and who is involved or any useful information, as I would enjoy learning about oriental orthodoxy.

Peace Demetrios, how is everything with you?
I would recommend the following books about the history of the Coptic Church. I don't know much about other OO churches history, but I am beginning to learn.

1- "The History of the Coptic Church" . by Iris Aziz El-Masry
2- "The History of the Patriarchs. " by HG Saweres Ibn EL-Mukafa3, a prominant bishop who lived in the 10th century when the Muez was Khalif and who witnessed the famous miracle of the removal of the mountain. The bishop of course stops at the 10th century.
3- " The Coptic Church". Father Menasa Youhana, died in 1930. A scholarly written book about the history of the Coptic Church.
4- Series of cermons by HG The Late Bishop Youaness of Gharbia.

You should be able to find them in the nearest Coptic Church to you, but probably in arabic, except the first book which is translated for its importance. But I know you understand arabic.

As for theology and spiritual writings, H.H. Pope Shenouda is a walking encyclopedia.

Peace,
Stavro

[Stavro]

By the way, H.H. Pope Shenouda's books are translated to English.
Peace,
Stavro

[Stavro]

jbc1949:Well I must be losing it!  I am sure that I read this somewhere.  Could this possibly be true of other non-Chalcedonians?  The Abyssinians for example?

The best way is to go to a Coptic Orthodox Church or any other OO church and see for yourself. In a Coptic Orthodox Church, you will find the icons on the Holder of the Icons in front of the altar, on the side walls, on the back wall, everywhere. The difference in icons between a coptic church and another coptic church would be the icon of the blessed Saint who the church is named after, on the left hand side of the altar.

All Copts have icons at their homes, in their wallets, and even in their cars. Our church believe firmly in the intercession of the saints, and we have thousands of saints who we know and millions not known, having been killed during times of persecution in mass martyrdom.

We also have been blessed by the intercession of the saints in many times through the history. We think, that in spite of all the persecution throughout 2000 years, non-stop, The Lord has kept the OO churches and Coptic Church in Egypt because of the verse in Isiah 19:19 and he will be always faithful to His Words and because of the Intercession of the millions of saints we have been blessed with.

One thing: During the Pacha week, except on Thursday of the New Covenant, we have no liturgies and in the liturgy of Thursday we don't have a Xenexarium, the commemoration of the Saints. The Pascha prayers are held in the middle of the church, not in front of the altar, and only the icon of Christ and the Holy Cross Icon (whether the Crucified Lord alone or the Scene itself with St.Mary and St.John) is in the middle of the church.

In the feasts of the saints, we make rounds around the church with the Cross at the front and the icon of the saints afterwards.

Peace,
Stavro

[hbmincey]

 As an ignorant soul seeking the Truth, I for one would like to thank everyone for the OO info posted to this board. It has been most helpful. In particular thanks to the links you put up in post #10 to my original query Peter. The sites are great, particularly the bookstore!!! I just have to decide what to get first .

Peace to all,
Ben

[Linus7]

Let me flip this for you so your seemingly feeble mind can grasp what Peter is trying to say.  Would you go to an OO site and post articles from them re: the beliefs of the EO church?  Because that's exactly what you're doing here, especially posting articles from a site that would probably think you aren't Orthodox either.  But we don't know that because you won't tell us what communion you belong to.

I think you and your friends have made yourselves known by your words.

You need no further help from me.

By your fruits - and your words - you are known.

May God forgive you.

[Linus7]

Linus,

This site is an Orthodox site. It's not "primarily Eastern Orthodox" or "primarily Oriental Orthodox".  Its membership is primarily Eastern Orthodox, however.

The stated policy of this site has always been that Eastern and Oriental Orthodox may disagree with one another politely on this board, but may not call each other heretical.  What is allowed are scholarly critques.

In one post above you mention "the EO position" in reference to some articles hosted on orthodoxinfo.com.  I would submit that the "EO position" on this is not unified, but that more EO subscribe to the statements of the joint OO-EO dialogue than those who do not.  Do you read these statements?  Are you aware of the proceedings?

anastasios

Perhaps this is not the right place for me or for any genuine Orthodox Christian, then.

Thanks for the revelation.

[Linus7]

This forum is for Non-Chalcedonian discussion, it is not for the subversion of folk who show an interest in Oriental Orthodoxy by suggesting sites which are filled with material that is untrue and full of error.

No-one should be silent if materials are erroneous, why should I be quiet just out of politeness.

The materials at orthodoxinfo are doing Satan's work if they propagate lies, and they do.

Conversely, I am supposed to remain silent while an error the Orthodox Fathers regarded as rank heresy is propagated?

It is your point of view that is erroneous, if the saints and Fathers of the Church are to be taken at their word.

Those seeking the truth are entitled to hear both sides.

Then perhaps, with God's help, they will see just who is doing Satan's work.

[Anastasios]

You can respond without being rude.

[Antonious Nikolas]

Well I must be losing it!  I am sure that I read this somewhere.  Could this possibly be true of other non-Chalcedonians?  The Abyssinians for example?

JBC

Not to my knowledge.  I visit the local Ethiopian Church quite frequently and they have their icons up all the time.  This also seems to be true of the Armenian, Syrian, and Indian Churches I have visited.  Maybe this is coming from the ACE?

[jbc1949]

Not to my knowledge.  I visit the local Ethiopian Church quite frequently and they have their icons up all the time.  This also seems to be true of the Armenian, Syrian, and Indian Churches I have visited.  Maybe this is coming from the ACE?

ACE?  I don't know the acronym.

BTW, I have been cruising some Orthodox sites and have been looking at Coptic icons.  Although I am accustomed to the Slavic style Icons, the Mid-Eastern variety has its own style that I am coming to appreciate!

ICONS rule!

Respects,

Jim C.

[Antonious Nikolas]

You better believe icons rule!  ACE stasnds for Assyrian Church of the East.  I've heard that although they allow them, icons aren't to big in their tradition, or in the Syriac tradition in general.

[Elisha]

Anyone interested in the Non-Chalcedonians should also check out the articles at http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_mono.htm

and the Catholic Encyclopedia articles at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05633a.htm and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03555a.htm .

There are further links provided in those articles that are worth looking into.

Linus, I haven't been to the Orthodoxinfo site in a while, but from clicking on the link I have a few comments:  

1) I noticed that at least two (probably more) of the articles/links on the orthodoxinfo site are from the "Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies", which I'm rather certain is part of HOCNA, which is a non-canonical group - I think only in communion with a couple of Greek Old Believer/Calendar/whatever parishes.  I'm sure there is a lot great material on orthododoxinfo.com, but probably a lot of suspect material as well.

2) The second link is from a Roman Catholic site.  Would you send an inquirer into EO information from there?  I surely wouldn't.

Considering that there is suspect material from orthodoxinfo and that the RC Church is not in communion with the OO Churches, I don't see the great relevance of post those links.  While I think Peter's comments of lies/Satan's work/etc. may be a little harsh, I definitely see his viewpoint.

[Anastasios]

Just a minor point of clarification: the OrthodoxInfo site is part of the True Orthodox Church of Greece under Metropolitan Cyprian (www.synodinresistance.gr).  They are in communion with ROCOR.

anastasios

[Αριστοκλής]

Just a minor point of clarification: the OrthodoxInfo site is part of the True Orthodox Church of Greece under Metropolitan Cyprian (www.synodinresistance.gr).  They are in communion with ROCOR.

anastasios

And easily accessed from the 'Portal" page:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/portal/index.html

Demetri

[Linus7]

Elisha -

I posted to links to a couple of specific Catholic Encyclopedia articles. Have you read them?

They are quite good.

There are many books and articles on Church history that were not written by Orthodox Christians yet which have value when used with discretion.

[Elisha]

Just a minor point of clarification: the OrthodoxInfo site is part of the True Orthodox Church of Greece under Metropolitan Cyprian (www.synodinresistance.gr).  They are in communion with ROCOR.

anastasios

Ahhh.  Did not know that.  No wonder orthodoxinfo is suspect!

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