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Author Topic: "jesus Camp" movie by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady (2006)  (Read 3686 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 03, 2009, 01:31:31 PM »

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

What a heartbreaking film...

Is all this stuff real?

The scenes where the kids break mugs, saying that "we are breaking the power of our evil government," and where the "pastor" Becky Fischer drives across empty, dull desert of a Missouri "urban village" and says, "this old wicked world must come to an end" - really broke my heart.

Does she even realize that she is talking about a world that has Bach, Tolstoy, Fellini... Hemingway even? Obviously no...

What a one-dimensional, crooked, perverted, weird hominid she is...

I am also boiling all over about the scenes of this so-called "home schooling." Wow...
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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2009, 02:17:10 PM »

I have seen clips from this and it is very disturbing. Thats all I really should say.
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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2009, 02:22:31 PM »

I have too. Very, very upsetting and evil.
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2009, 07:34:24 PM »

I am so afraid that that's what will happen to all Christian groups in the USA... There is such a divide into the "right" (pro-"life," pro-gun, etc.) and the "left," and such an enormous drift to self-identify with the former when you think you are "Christian..." And there seems to be so little of the truly human, truly beautiful in all this "Christian"-"religious wing, because there aren't any deep, ancient ethnic traditions in the USA... and instead, so much of the "left-brain," rationalizing, preaching, self-righteous crap that will eventually lead to the clash with Muslims (who are also experiencing the same "left-brain" Puritan "preachy" drift"), and to the nuclear holocaust. I have less and less hope...
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2009, 08:47:02 PM »

Heorhij,

It could go that way, but we should realize that there are elements of truth, although they are very hard to find under the cover of the emotional, feel-good, sin (or person)-hating "Christianity" these people espouse, believe in and sell to others.  And that's what we need to focus on esepcially as so many of these evangelicals are becoming, more and more now, so disaffected that Evangelicals are coming into the Orthodox Church in record numbers.

However, I'll have to find where I read this, but I read somewhere that these "indoctrination" camps turn many of these kids off from the Evangelical beliefs they were raised with but, unfortunately, make them into atheists, agnostics or turn them into the liberal mainline Christians where Christianity becomes just as self-righteous and emotional.  Same end, but different means to that end.
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2009, 08:56:12 PM »

Heorhij,

It could go that way, but we should realize that there are elements of truth, although they are very hard to find under the cover of the emotional, feel-good, sin (or person)-hating "Christianity" these people espouse, believe in and sell to others.  And that's what we need to focus on esepcially as so many of these evangelicals are becoming, more and more now, so disaffected that Evangelicals are coming into the Orthodox Church in record numbers.

However, I'll have to find where I read this, but I read somewhere that these "indoctrination" camps turn many of these kids off from the Evangelical beliefs they were raised with but, unfortunately, make them into atheists, agnostics or turn them into the liberal mainline Christians where Christianity becomes just as self-righteous and emotional.  Same end, but different means to that end.

Well, I don't know... I guess I am happy that my daughter and her husband are atheists rather than "Christians" of the Evangelical-Charismatic-ProLifeProGunAntiBigGovernment sort...
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2009, 09:02:15 PM »

Well, I don't know... I guess I am happy that my daughter and her husband are atheists rather than "Christians" of the Evangelical-Charismatic-ProLifeProGunAntiBigGovernment sort...

Or Christians of the Liberal-Hypocritical-ProAbortion, Anti-parental rights, Pro-Government intrustion sort! Wink
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 12:42:53 AM »

Well, I don't know... I guess I am happy that my daughter and her husband are atheists rather than "Christians" of the Evangelical-Charismatic-ProLifeProGunAntiBigGovernment sort...

This is somewhat of a caricature.  I grew up on a street with twelves houses on it.  To give you an idea, every single person on that street voted for McCain last election.  Of those one family of the twelve is an evangelical.  Two are practicing Lutherans (ELCA).  The rest more or less don't attend church.  I know for a fact that 11 out of the 12 are horrified by this type of thing (Jesus Camp) and have never brought it up to the evangelicals.  Although, I'd honestly be surprised if they weren't also put off by it.  Granted, Arizona is not the South and is well outside the Bible Belt.  Thus, I think you should be careful not to apply this on too large of a level to society at large.  I don't disagree that the religious right is a concerning movement in the US, but as the last election demonstrated they peacefully left power when voted out. 

As for the rest of your continued rants about the inadequacy of American culture - groups that are very extreme in their ideology are much more mainstream in "older" cultures.  Look at Nashi.  Of course when I pointed out that a far-right extremist of the Little Russians in the Ukraine had come into power in a municipal election you dismissed him as a putinoid.  Perhaps it's help if you didn't try to force facts to fit your already formed Weltanschauung...         
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 07:30:48 AM »

Well, I don't know... I guess I am happy that my daughter and her husband are atheists rather than "Christians" of the Evangelical-Charismatic-ProLifeProGunAntiBigGovernment sort...

Or Christians of the Liberal-Hypocritical-ProAbortion, Anti-parental rights, Pro-Government intrustion sort! Wink

But I don't know any of these, and I certainly do not see these organizing children's camps...
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2009, 07:31:27 AM »

Well, I don't know... I guess I am happy that my daughter and her husband are atheists rather than "Christians" of the Evangelical-Charismatic-ProLifeProGunAntiBigGovernment sort...

This is somewhat of a caricature.  I grew up on a street with twelves houses on it.  To give you an idea, every single person on that street voted for McCain last election.  Of those one family of the twelve is an evangelical.  Two are practicing Lutherans (ELCA).  The rest more or less don't attend church.  I know for a fact that 11 out of the 12 are horrified by this type of thing (Jesus Camp) and have never brought it up to the evangelicals.  Although, I'd honestly be surprised if they weren't also put off by it.  Granted, Arizona is not the South and is well outside the Bible Belt.  Thus, I think you should be careful not to apply this on too large of a level to society at large.  I don't disagree that the religious right is a concerning movement in the US, but as the last election demonstrated they peacefully left power when voted out. 

As for the rest of your continued rants about the inadequacy of American culture - groups that are very extreme in their ideology are much more mainstream in "older" cultures.  Look at Nashi.  Of course when I pointed out that a far-right extremist of the Little Russians in the Ukraine had come into power in a municipal election you dismissed him as a putinoid.  Perhaps it's help if you didn't try to force facts to fit your already formed Weltanschauung...         

Maybe you are right, Nektarios, I am just speaking my mind. Sorry, I know it's not "balanced."
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2009, 01:31:08 PM »

Heorhij,

It could go that way, but we should realize that there are elements of truth, although they are very hard to find under the cover of the emotional, feel-good, sin (or person)-hating "Christianity" these people espouse, believe in and sell to others.  And that's what we need to focus on esepcially as so many of these evangelicals are becoming, more and more now, so disaffected that Evangelicals are coming into the Orthodox Church in record numbers.

However, I'll have to find where I read this, but I read somewhere that these "indoctrination" camps turn many of these kids off from the Evangelical beliefs they were raised with but, unfortunately, make them into atheists, agnostics or turn them into the liberal mainline Christians where Christianity becomes just as self-righteous and emotional.  Same end, but different means to that end.

Well, I don't know... I guess I am happy that my daughter and her husband are atheists rather than "Christians" of the Evangelical-Charismatic-ProLifeProGunAntiBigGovernment sort...

At least they aren't going on any pogroms.


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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2009, 01:56:42 PM »

The problem with the "social gospel" is that some people get so caught up in the "pro-life" movement that they get flared up with passion and forget about all of the other things that constitute the Christian life.  Never mind that the Supreme Court has made its decision, and it is final.  If you want your kids to be proactive against abortions, then volunteer at a pregnancy care center that ministers to young women who are in trouble.  Don't try to rail against the Supreme Court's ruling, because it won't work.

Agree! But that's exactly my biggest fear: that people won't listen to a simple logic like yours above. The key thing is, "why do we become Christians?"; "Why do we join the Church?"; "What are looking for there?" And so many people here in the US seem to "know" that the answer is, - change this world, or this country! "Improve" it! Make it righteous! "Claim it back from these godless liberals!" etc. There is no "otherwordly" vector, none at all... Right now, this tacit substitution, in which the mystery, the otherwordly existential beauty of the Church is eleiminated and the concrete "left-brain" program of "changing this world" is brought instead, is characteristic mostly for Protestant churches; however, again, my fear is that this trend will soon spread on the Orthodox Church as well, if not already spreading on it in this country.
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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2009, 01:58:04 PM »

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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2009, 02:13:19 PM »

Tangent involving abortion discussion split and moved here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21098.0.html
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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2009, 05:21:29 PM »

Agree! But that's exactly my biggest fear: that people won't listen to a simple logic like yours above. The key thing is, "why do we become Christians?"; "Why do we join the Church?"; "What are looking for there?" And so many people here in the US seem to "know" that the answer is, - change this world, or this country! "Improve" it! Make it righteous! "Claim it back from these godless liberals!" etc. There is no "otherwordly" vector, none at all... Right now, this tacit substitution, in which the mystery, the otherwordly existential beauty of the Church is eleiminated and the concrete "left-brain" program of "changing this world" is brought instead, is characteristic mostly for Protestant churches; however, again, my fear is that this trend will soon spread on the Orthodox Church as well, if not already spreading on it in this country.

Again, I say put this all in perspective.  Has a revolution with a broad social agenda of "change this world, change this country" ever occurred in a majority protestant nation? 

When the French Revolution occurred, it was long before the social Gospel had become the norm in the Catholic Church.  It was a confession still very much focused on the otherworldly.  When the Russian Revolution occurred the Orthodox Church was very focused on the otherworldly.  Chinese Religion was more mixed, but did have strong otherworldly elements.  And for historians these are the three paradigms that are usually studied for broad-based social revolutions.   

I agree with your analysis of the Social Gospel (and honestly that is a large reason why I wouldn't ever really feel comfortable in the Catholic Church again).  But I still think this is more a manifestation of any extremist ideology that isn't necessarily religious more accurately describes the Jesus Camp and American religious right as a social movement.   
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2009, 10:24:38 PM »

The problem with the "social gospel" is that some people get so caught up in the "pro-life" movement that they get flared up with passion and forget about all of the other things that constitute the Christian life.  Never mind that the Supreme Court has made its decision, and it is final.  If you want your kids to be proactive against abortions, then volunteer at a pregnancy care center that ministers to young women who are in trouble.  Don't try to rail against the Supreme Court's ruling, because it won't work.

Agree! But that's exactly my biggest fear: that people won't listen to a simple logic like yours above. The key thing is, "why do we become Christians?"; "Why do we join the Church?"; "What are looking for there?" And so many people here in the US seem to "know" that the answer is, - change this world, or this country! "Improve" it! Make it righteous! "Claim it back from these godless liberals!" etc. There is no "otherwordly" vector, none at all... Right now, this tacit substitution, in which the mystery, the otherwordly existential beauty of the Church is eleiminated and the concrete "left-brain" program of "changing this world" is brought instead, is characteristic mostly for Protestant churches; however, again, my fear is that this trend will soon spread on the Orthodox Church as well, if not already spreading on it in this country.

Well.  I have not seen the film, so I can neither defend it nor join you in condemning it. But I have been around a lot of right-wing charismatic types, and I may be the only one in this forum who has. I will attempt a restrained and charitable reply.  One of my purposes in being here, I think, is to understand where you are coming from, and take the time to really hear you.  This is seldom reciprocated. I think you are greatly mistaken in thinking there is no seeking after God, no hunger for holiness, no desire to please God and rejoice in Him.  These things occur in charismatic circles, probably in ways that you cannot perceive.  I would like to think you would reserve judgement over the hearts and minds and souls of other Christians and leave that in the hands of God. I hear you saying such people are shallow and trivial and do not seek after God, but rather seek to save the world like the Marxists.  I will say that I do not think you have troubled yourself to try and understand them on their terms.  Perhaps you cannot.  That is a sad thing, and may reflect your inability to see anything good outside of the little you do understand.  I wonder: have you ever been to a Protestant service? To a charismatic service? Have you ever read a book by a non-Orthodox? Have you ever tried to get out of your comfort zone and maybe see what it is like to walk in another's shoes?

It is not surprising to me that I am one of the few Protestants posting on this board.  Certain things indicate there have been others in the past. It is strange that you want to reach evangelicals but do not bother to understand them or speak their language, dismissing them as shallow and ignorant hypocrites and heretics.  It is not surprising they do not stick around. Posts like this are good examples of the climate on this forum and the attitude of the Orthodox towards us rebel Protestant scum.

Message received.
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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2009, 08:23:31 AM »

The problem with the "social gospel" is that some people get so caught up in the "pro-life" movement that they get flared up with passion and forget about all of the other things that constitute the Christian life.  Never mind that the Supreme Court has made its decision, and it is final.  If you want your kids to be proactive against abortions, then volunteer at a pregnancy care center that ministers to young women who are in trouble.  Don't try to rail against the Supreme Court's ruling, because it won't work.

Agree! But that's exactly my biggest fear: that people won't listen to a simple logic like yours above. The key thing is, "why do we become Christians?"; "Why do we join the Church?"; "What are looking for there?" And so many people here in the US seem to "know" that the answer is, - change this world, or this country! "Improve" it! Make it righteous! "Claim it back from these godless liberals!" etc. There is no "otherwordly" vector, none at all... Right now, this tacit substitution, in which the mystery, the otherwordly existential beauty of the Church is eleiminated and the concrete "left-brain" program of "changing this world" is brought instead, is characteristic mostly for Protestant churches; however, again, my fear is that this trend will soon spread on the Orthodox Church as well, if not already spreading on it in this country.

Well.  I have not seen the film, so I can neither defend it nor join you in condemning it. But I have been around a lot of right-wing charismatic types, and I may be the only one in this forum who has. I will attempt a restrained and charitable reply.  One of my purposes in being here, I think, is to understand where you are coming from, and take the time to really hear you.  This is seldom reciprocated. I think you are greatly mistaken in thinking there is no seeking after God, no hunger for holiness, no desire to please God and rejoice in Him.  These things occur in charismatic circles, probably in ways that you cannot perceive.  I would like to think you would reserve judgement over the hearts and minds and souls of other Christians and leave that in the hands of God. I hear you saying such people are shallow and trivial and do not seek after God, but rather seek to save the world like the Marxists.  I will say that I do not think you have troubled yourself to try and understand them on their terms.  Perhaps you cannot.  That is a sad thing, and may reflect your inability to see anything good outside of the little you do understand.  I wonder: have you ever been to a Protestant service? To a charismatic service? Have you ever read a book by a non-Orthodox? Have you ever tried to get out of your comfort zone and maybe see what it is like to walk in another's shoes?

It is not surprising to me that I am one of the few Protestants posting on this board.  Certain things indicate there have been others in the past. It is strange that you want to reach evangelicals but do not bother to understand them or speak their language, dismissing them as shallow and ignorant hypocrites and heretics.  It is not surprising they do not stick around. Posts like this are good examples of the climate on this forum and the attitude of the Orthodox towards us rebel Protestant scum.

Message received.

Dear Truthstalker,

I am very sorry if I hurt you by my thread. That was not my intention and I ask you to forgive me.

For the record. I came to Orthodoxy very late in my life; even though I was born and raised in a land where Orthodoxy was literally "all around" - in Ukraine - I grew up in a family of very loyal Soviet people, was never baptized in my childhood, and never received any religious instruction. When I came to the USA in 1990, I very briefly visited a Ukrainian immigrant Orthodox mission parish in Seattle, WA (where everyone thought that I was a baptized Orthodox), but I did not take it seriously - rather, simply as a cultural, ethnic club, a means to keep my then little daughter close to the Ukrainian culture. Later, in the late 1990-s and the early 2000-s, after my move to a small town in the Deep South, I started to "wander around" and tried to fit in several Protestant denominations. So, to answer your question, yes, I've been to Protestant services - Baptist, Methodist (both United and Free), and Presbyterian. I was actually baptized in a Presbyterian congregation and even served as an elder there between January 2005 and October 2006. At that time (in the late 1990-s - early 2000-s), I began to think that "all I and other people need is Christ, and it does not matter to what church I go." But then, in ~summer-fall 2006, I finally understood that I am not actually fitting in anywhere in the Protestant world - for the reasons I wrote above in this thread.

Yes, yes, yes - I do see, and I do know, that there are very many wonderful people among Protestants. Yes, they hunger and thirst for Christ, and they lead very good, moral, godly lives, much better lives than the life I am living. But I do really see the general trend in all Protestant congregations I've been to: to replace the Kingdom of God by the improved kingdom of this world. That's why such passion about "issues" like abortion and gay marriage, and also (something that I really seriously hate) - about funneling money to the state of Israel (something that, if not stopped, will most certainly lead to the global nuclear holocaust). And that's why the "adrenalin rush" instead of worship in the ethereal, tacit, tender otherwordly spirit of the Divine Liturgy. I do believe it's satanic, demonic forces at work.

The demonic forces are extremely clever, they do very well know what to do and how to do it. Atheism, libertine ways, hedonism, pagan immorality etc. - is just one of the possible approaches they rely on. Another, and one that seems to be a lot more powerful here, in the USA, is to masquerade as "Christianity." All these forces need when they use this second approach is just this: very inconspicuously change the "heart" of a believing Christian in such a way that the real, the only "treasure in heaven" (Matthew 6:19-21) is no longer seen by this heart, no longer is this heart's desire and goal; instead, plant into this heart the vision of you doing a kind of clear, logical, straightforward "left-brain" "program" of changing this world, along the lines of some clearly defined "issues..."

Again, forgive me if my messages in this thread sound like bashing; I sincerely do not want to offend or pain anyone. But I just need to say what's on my mind, and seeing this movie about the children's summer camp where I, again and again, do see these demonic forces at work, was yet another occasion to do it.

With my apologies and best wishes to you,

George
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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2009, 06:59:46 PM »

Truthstalker,

I'm glad you're on the forum and I've noticed you've been asking a lot of very stimulating questions. I too grew up mostly in a sort of evangelical world, so I have attended many,  many years of services in those churches. There are still many things about that world that I appreciate. It is true, I never did attend very many of the more liberal or charismatic types of churches, simply because it didn't interest me. Within the past few years I have attended the charismatic churches twice. Both times were completely upsetting for me, and I truly could not sense the Spirit of God there at all. For one thing, it was so noisy-a huge racket-I couldn't think, much less hear God or pray. Some man was walking around with an angry look on his red face, pushing people over, and I was so frightened that I ran away from him-out the door.

I have read many books by non-Orthodox authors, and continue to do so. I personally do not limit my reading to Orthodox sources. Others may do so, but I don't. I do not believe that all charismatics are shallow or trivial. There are many, many very good people everywhere in the world. But, once one becomes Orthodox, it is more difficult to attend other churches and to feel at home. I know, because I've tried it.  I've slipped into the back of an Episcopalian church, a Presbyterian church and a Charismatic church. In every single case, I felt a terribly restless spirit, like something was very wrong, like I was going to suffocate. I don't feel this way when I attend our services.

Anyhow, I too am sorry if you have been offended. I watched only parts of the Jesus Camp on Youtube, and found it upsetting in the same way I found my experiences at the charismatic churches upsetting. However, I know it is maybe a bit extreme. The church in which I grew up was very sober, very quiet. Much more like the Orthodox.
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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2009, 01:13:01 PM »

The problem with the "social gospel" is that some people get so caught up in the "pro-life" movement that they get flared up with passion and forget about all of the other things that constitute the Christian life.  Never mind that the Supreme Court has made its decision, and it is final.  If you want your kids to be proactive against abortions, then volunteer at a pregnancy care center that ministers to young women who are in trouble.  Don't try to rail against the Supreme Court's ruling, because it won't work.

Agree! But that's exactly my biggest fear: that people won't listen to a simple logic like yours above. The key thing is, "why do we become Christians?"; "Why do we join the Church?"; "What are looking for there?" And so many people here in the US seem to "know" that the answer is, - change this world, or this country! "Improve" it! Make it righteous! "Claim it back from these godless liberals!" etc. There is no "otherwordly" vector, none at all... Right now, this tacit substitution, in which the mystery, the otherwordly existential beauty of the Church is eleiminated and the concrete "left-brain" program of "changing this world" is brought instead, is characteristic mostly for Protestant churches; however, again, my fear is that this trend will soon spread on the Orthodox Church as well, if not already spreading on it in this country.

Well.  I have not seen the film, so I can neither defend it nor join you in condemning it. But I have been around a lot of right-wing charismatic types, and I may be the only one in this forum who has. I will attempt a restrained and charitable reply.  One of my purposes in being here, I think, is to understand where you are coming from, and take the time to really hear you.  This is seldom reciprocated. I think you are greatly mistaken in thinking there is no seeking after God, no hunger for holiness, no desire to please God and rejoice in Him.  These things occur in charismatic circles, probably in ways that you cannot perceive.  I would like to think you would reserve judgement over the hearts and minds and souls of other Christians and leave that in the hands of God. I hear you saying such people are shallow and trivial and do not seek after God, but rather seek to save the world like the Marxists.  I will say that I do not think you have troubled yourself to try and understand them on their terms.  Perhaps you cannot.  That is a sad thing, and may reflect your inability to see anything good outside of the little you do understand.  I wonder: have you ever been to a Protestant service? To a charismatic service? Have you ever read a book by a non-Orthodox? Have you ever tried to get out of your comfort zone and maybe see what it is like to walk in another's shoes?

It is not surprising to me that I am one of the few Protestants posting on this board.  Certain things indicate there have been others in the past. It is strange that you want to reach evangelicals but do not bother to understand them or speak their language, dismissing them as shallow and ignorant hypocrites and heretics.  It is not surprising they do not stick around. Posts like this are good examples of the climate on this forum and the attitude of the Orthodox towards us rebel Protestant scum.

Message received.
I actually used to attend a Protestant Church (for about six months). I actually really like many of the peole I met there and found that these people really wanted to please God. Now, I find that their spirituality and understanding of God was a bit shallow, more than likely becuase of their disconnect from the apostolic faith and the sacraments, but that does not change the fact that they were good Christians.
As for the charismatic movement, I used to participate in the charismatic movement in the Catholic Church. As I grew I came to realize that it was more about emotion and self gratification than it is about sacrifice and carrying once's cross. For that reason I stay away from that form of sprituality. That being said, I attended a Pentecostal Church once and had the same type of experience that Rosehip had. I find it to be a bit creepy.
All in all, I find that there are many good Protestant Christians out there. However, I don't think I have met many who know Church history.
"To be steeped in history is to cease to be a Protestant" -Cardinal Newman

But I do want to emphasize that there are many Protestants who are seeking God the best way they know how.
That all being said, there are many Orthodox who would have similar Criticisms about my faith as a Catholic. However, I hope that we can all recognize that being a Catholic, a Protestant, or Orthodox does not garauntee that a person is or is not seeking God.
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2009, 07:40:07 AM »

The problem with the "social gospel" is that some people get so caught up in the "pro-life" movement that they get flared up with passion and forget about all of the other things that constitute the Christian life.  Never mind that the Supreme Court has made its decision, and it is final.  If you want your kids to be proactive against abortions, then volunteer at a pregnancy care center that ministers to young women who are in trouble.  Don't try to rail against the Supreme Court's ruling, because it won't work.

Agree! But that's exactly my biggest fear: that people won't listen to a simple logic like yours above. The key thing is, "why do we become Christians?"; "Why do we join the Church?"; "What are looking for there?" And so many people here in the US seem to "know" that the answer is, - change this world, or this country! "Improve" it! Make it righteous! "Claim it back from these godless liberals!" etc. There is no "otherwordly" vector, none at all... Right now, this tacit substitution, in which the mystery, the otherwordly existential beauty of the Church is eleiminated and the concrete "left-brain" program of "changing this world" is brought instead, is characteristic mostly for Protestant churches; however, again, my fear is that this trend will soon spread on the Orthodox Church as well, if not already spreading on it in this country.

Well.  I have not seen the film, so I can neither defend it nor join you in condemning it. But I have been around a lot of right-wing charismatic types, and I may be the only one in this forum who has. I will attempt a restrained and charitable reply.  One of my purposes in being here, I think, is to understand where you are coming from, and take the time to really hear you.  This is seldom reciprocated. I think you are greatly mistaken in thinking there is no seeking after God, no hunger for holiness, no desire to please God and rejoice in Him.  These things occur in charismatic circles, probably in ways that you cannot perceive.  I would like to think you would reserve judgement over the hearts and minds and souls of other Christians and leave that in the hands of God. I hear you saying such people are shallow and trivial and do not seek after God, but rather seek to save the world like the Marxists.  I will say that I do not think you have troubled yourself to try and understand them on their terms.  Perhaps you cannot.  That is a sad thing, and may reflect your inability to see anything good outside of the little you do understand.  I wonder: have you ever been to a Protestant service? To a charismatic service? Have you ever read a book by a non-Orthodox? Have you ever tried to get out of your comfort zone and maybe see what it is like to walk in another's shoes?

It is not surprising to me that I am one of the few Protestants posting on this board.  Certain things indicate there have been others in the past. It is strange that you want to reach evangelicals but do not bother to understand them or speak their language, dismissing them as shallow and ignorant hypocrites and heretics.  It is not surprising they do not stick around. Posts like this are good examples of the climate on this forum and the attitude of the Orthodox towards us rebel Protestant scum.

Message received.
I actually used to attend a Protestant Church (for about six months). I actually really like many of the peole I met there and found that these people really wanted to please God. Now, I find that their spirituality and understanding of God was a bit shallow, more than likely becuase of their disconnect from the apostolic faith and the sacraments, but that does not change the fact that they were good Christians.
As for the charismatic movement, I used to participate in the charismatic movement in the Catholic Church. As I grew I came to realize that it was more about emotion and self gratification than it is about sacrifice and carrying once's cross. For that reason I stay away from that form of sprituality. That being said, I attended a Pentecostal Church once and had the same type of experience that Rosehip had. I find it to be a bit creepy.
All in all, I find that there are many good Protestant Christians out there. However, I don't think I have met many who know Church history.
"To be steeped in history is to cease to be a Protestant" -Cardinal Newman

But I do want to emphasize that there are many Protestants who are seeking God the best way they know how.
That all being said, there are many Orthodox who would have similar Criticisms about my faith as a Catholic. However, I hope that we can all recognize that being a Catholic, a Protestant, or Orthodox does not garauntee that a person is or is not seeking God.

But I did not dispute that. Of course both statements are true: (1) there are very many wonderful Christians in the Church (Orthodox) and outside of it, whatever they call themselves, and (2) what you call yourself does not automatically make you into a good and faithful servant of God. I did not intend to skew this discussion into the pointless talk about who is real Christian and who is not. All I was trying to say is, here, in the United States of America, I see a lot of people and whole organizations who, so to say, wave a Christian flag and, doing that, completely or almost completely focus their attention on the idea that this world, this society, this country must be changed. And that, again, is what I see as demonic, satanic forces at work. These forces are most interested in ruining Christianity from within by taking away from it its focus on the Kingdom of God within us, by eliminating the idea that we are entirely not of "this world," etc. And again, it's just my opinion, I am not speaking on behalf of any group or ideology.
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2012, 03:10:09 AM »

I really have no words for this documentary. I made a post on Facebook about it, but it made me boil in rage. I am so glad authentic Christianity has no resemblance of such evil.
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2012, 10:58:36 AM »

I think this documentary was my first exposure to american evangelicalism. Though I did find it distrubing I also couldn't help being fascinated by it. I am really nerdy when it comes to religion and I have always found Christianity in America extremely interesting.
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2012, 11:34:52 AM »

If it makes you feel any better, the Evangelical movement is dying out as we speak. Less and less people are becoming Evangelicals and staggering amounts of them are leaving the Evangelical community in search of more orderly Christianity like the RC and even Orthodox Church. This is actually why the Evangelical Churches are becoming more and more dogmatic and crazy, because people are leaving and they don't know how to react.
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2012, 02:51:59 PM »

If it makes you feel any better, the Evangelical movement is dying out as we speak. Less and less people are becoming Evangelicals and staggering amounts of them are leaving the Evangelical community in search of more orderly Christianity like the RC and even Orthodox Church. This is actually why the Evangelical Churches are becoming more and more dogmatic and crazy, because people are leaving and they don't know how to react.
Or they become irreligious.

But since they have no pillars of truth to stand on, they will scramble at anything that can work, and sadly it resorts to the fear tactic.
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2012, 02:53:56 PM »

edit

Exactly!
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2012, 05:57:29 PM »

If it makes you feel any better, the Evangelical movement is dying out as we speak. Less and less people are becoming Evangelicals and staggering amounts of them are leaving the Evangelical community in search of more orderly Christianity like the RC and even Orthodox Church. This is actually why the Evangelical Churches are becoming more and more dogmatic and crazy, because people are leaving and they don't know how to react.
In the U.S., evangelicals have decreased only a couple of percentage points over the past few years, not much more so than Catholics (who would have decreased even more if not for Hispanic immigration into the U.S.):

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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2012, 07:46:16 PM »

Lol that 1% is probably mostly in Pittsburgh.
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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2012, 09:38:45 PM »

Unfortunately Orthodox are closer to around .3% of the population... guess that was hard to fit on there though  angel
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2012, 01:20:20 AM »

I just finished watching this documentary. I was expecting a horrific expose of innocent children being beaten, molested, and led to mass suicide in the name of Christianity. Instead, the film simply depicted a right wing evangelical sect where children are taught to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, question evolutionism, pray for Pro-Life Supreme Court judges, and evangelize their faith. While I would certainly criticize their erroneous theology, I hardly saw this as a tragic example of children being oppressed. Obviously, the film makers were trying to convince us that the greatest threat to America is evangelical children that are taught to live out their faith. But it was a big swing and a miss, IMO.

I was also quite amused by the liberal radio host who mustered up so much manufactured outrage at the fact that evangelical Christians are teaching and raising their children according to their own Christian convictions. Somehow, the radio host guy doesn’t think evangelicals should be trying to influence governmental policy. He apparently doesn’t understand the concept of his own beloved democracy. But that’s typical of those who extol democracy- they love and embrace it as long as it produces the results they personally desire. But if democracy threatens to produce something contrary to their own world view and beliefs, then by God they feel the need to forcefully stop the democratic process- all in the name of "democracy" of course.

The frightening thing about this film is not the evangelicals who are living out their convictions and voting their convictions (as much as I may disagree with many of their convictions), but the people like that liberal radio show host who seem to want to silence and restrain those who live, teach, and vote according to convictions that run contrary to a left wing secular agenda. Does that guy really expect me to believe that he doesn’t teach and influence his own children according to what he thinks is right? Suppose his child came home one day and told him: “Dad, I’m not sure I believe in evolution. I don’t see the evidence for it.” I really doubt if he would say to his child: “Well, that’s good that you are keeping an open mind about it. Continue to study and examine the evidence, and draw your own conclusion. There are brilliant scientists on both sides of the evolution debate, so try to learn as much as you can from all points of view.” Yeah, sure, I really believe that's what he would say.  Roll Eyes

The movie was entertaining, and I am always saddened by these examples of a perverted Christianity. However, I don’t share the outrage and the anger that others here seem to have. These evangelical children are not being dragged into abortion clinics and forced to have abortions against their wills. They are not forcefully exposed to pornography and drugs. They are not being brainwashed to believe that sodomy is a human right. They are not brainwashed to believe that the public school and the secular government know better than their own parents what’s best for them.

The movie was a blatant straw man. Obvious to a fault. That’s the one thing about these left wing propaganda films: they’re often very entertaining, but the agenda is usually very poorly disguised. No matter how hard they try, they just can’t help but to reveal their hand.


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« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2012, 07:50:26 AM »

I actually don't understand why you call it brainwashing. Schools are educating children based on a certain scientific and ethic wordview. Aren't we doing the same? 200 years ago, the school system was based on christian ideals. Essentially, it is the same way of education, the only difference is the foundation on which our educational systems are build. It has always been like that and just because we don't agree with it, it doens't mean that it is brainwashing.

 
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« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2012, 08:01:08 AM »

I actually don't understand why you call it brainwashing. Schools are educating children based on a certain scientific and ethic wordview. Aren't we doing the same? 200 years ago, the school system was based on christian ideals. Essentially, it is the same way of education, the only difference is the foundation on which our educational systems are build. It has always been like that and just because we don't agree with it, it doens't mean that it is brainwashing.

"Brainwashing," "indoctrination," whatever you wish to call it. My point is that the evils produced by secular indocrination are far more worisome to me than the errors produced by evangelical indoctrination. And I am a huge critic of evangelical theology, but I would hardly call speaking in tongues and praying for Pro-Life Supreme Court judges a tremendous threat to humanity. And the children I saw in this documentary actually seemed less "indoctrinated" and more open minded than the average Ivy League college student.


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« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2012, 08:13:57 AM »

Quote
And the children I saw in this documentary actually seemed less "indocrinated" and more open minded than the average Ivy League college student.

I think I'll have to disagree on that one. Even though it has been a while since i watched the documentary, i still remember that little girls comment abot "dead churches"

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« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2012, 08:30:28 AM »

Quote
And the children I saw in this documentary actually seemed less "indocrinated" and more open minded than the average Ivy League college student.

I think I'll have to disagree on that one. Even though it has been a while since i watched the documentary, i still remember that little girls comment abot "dead churches"



Sure, that bothered me too. Like I said, I am a huge critic of evangelicalism. I abhor it. I suffered through it for years. But I have more respect for a child who desires "living worship" than I do for Ivy League intellectuals that proclaim that "God is dead."


Selam
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« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2012, 08:34:25 AM »

Quote
And the children I saw in this documentary actually seemed less "indocrinated" and more open minded than the average Ivy League college student.

I think I'll have to disagree on that one. Even though it has been a while since i watched the documentary, i still remember that little girls comment abot "dead churches"

That, we can agree on.


Sure, that bothered me too. Like I said, I am a huge critic of evangelicalism. I abhor it. I suffered through it for years. But I have more respect for a child who desires "living worship" than I do for Ivy League intellectuals that proclaim that "God is dead."


Selam
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« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2012, 09:49:30 AM »

I sat through about half of this when I realized that although this is a huge strawman, its a strawman that the general populace has no problem grabbing on to.

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But I have more respect for a child who desires "living worship" than I do for Ivy League intellectuals that proclaim that "God is dead.
^This

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« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2012, 10:11:56 AM »

If you havent seen the film, i recommend watching it. It may be sad, but it is really fascinating. Its on netflix.
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« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2012, 11:11:37 AM »

Based on the various synopses I've read this film seems a) rather tame and showing nothing to really worry about (aside from the type of editing that makes it seem like something to worry about); and b) to be representative of an extremely small cross-section of the "Evangelical" movement. The type of Pentecostal this film documents was one of those groups that during my Southern Baptist upbringing was thought to go too far (aside from their Charismatic tendencies- something no good Southern Baptist supported during the '80s and '90s) relative to the other Fundamentalist groups.

I went to a number of Christian summer camps as a teenager. About the only difference between them and the secular version was that most of my non-Christian friends never even WENT to summer camp if they did not belong to the Boy or Girl Scouts and that, thanks to the level of adult supervision it was all that much harder to find a spot to make out with that girl or smoke a cigarette- but once you did find a good spot you could be almost assured of not getting caught. Oh, and yeah, there might be a quick prayer service in the mornings and evenings and maybe a class or two throughout the week dedicated to some form of Christian teaching, but it was nothing one did not already get three times a week at the youth group meetings throughout the year.

Now, a non-documentary film that accurately depicts the average Evangelical teenager's plight, especially once private school enters the mix, would be Saved. The only differences between that movie and my teenage years would be that the schools I went to were never that big (though I knew of several that were- that's where the rich kids went) and we never had the televangelist style pastor and music at the average weekly chapel.
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« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2012, 11:31:08 AM »

Based on the various synopses I've read this film seems a) rather tame and showing nothing to really worry about (aside from the type of editing that makes it seem like something to worry about); and b) to be representative of an extremely small cross-section of the "Evangelical" movement. The type of Pentecostal this film documents was one of those groups that during my Southern Baptist upbringing was thought to go too far (aside from their Charismatic tendencies- something no good Southern Baptist supported during the '80s and '90s) relative to the other Fundamentalist groups.

I went to a number of Christian summer camps as a teenager. About the only difference between them and the secular version was that most of my non-Christian friends never even WENT to summer camp if they did not belong to the Boy or Girl Scouts and that, thanks to the level of adult supervision it was all that much harder to find a spot to make out with that girl or smoke a cigarette- but once you did find a good spot you could be almost assured of not getting caught. Oh, and yeah, there might be a quick prayer service in the mornings and evenings and maybe a class or two throughout the week dedicated to some form of Christian teaching, but it was nothing one did not already get three times a week at the youth group meetings throughout the year.
It was pretty hard to sneak a smoke at church camp, though my cousin and I did once sit around drinking mouthwash in a dreadful moment of poor judgment and life foreshadowing. We deserved the bellyaches we got.

Despite the lame games and emotional manipulation of the services, for the most part I remember church camps with a fondness for the frivolity of youth.

But the camps I attended never did this.
Quote
Now, a non-documentary film that accurately depicts the average Evangelical teenager's plight, especially once private school enters the mix, would be Saved. The only differences between that movie and my teenage years would be that the schools I went to were never that big (though I knew of several that were- that's where the rich kids went) and we never had the televangelist style pastor and music at the average weekly chapel.
I attended what Newsweek ranked the No. 12 most conservative Christian college, and 2003-2005 that film was a cult hit on campus. 

Today, the chapel services are eerily similar.
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« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2012, 11:36:47 AM »

I've avoided watching this for years, and while this thread has piqued my interest more successfully than anything I've read about it so far, I'm still hesitant to watch it. I can't really explain why, either, because it's not like I personally have a dog in this fight anymore... but I was raised in an evangelical Protestant church with a charismatic flavor, and my family still goes. I think their theology is misguided, but their sincerity and love for God is authentic. I'm sure they're better Christians than me. I just have no desire to watch Christians who don't know any better but are doing the best with what they have be mocked and ridiculed.
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« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2012, 01:03:46 PM »

I've avoided watching this for years, and while this thread has piqued my interest more successfully than anything I've read about it so far, I'm still hesitant to watch it. I can't really explain why, either, because it's not like I personally have a dog in this fight anymore... but I was raised in an evangelical Protestant church with a charismatic flavor, and my family still goes. I think their theology is misguided, but their sincerity and love for God is authentic. I'm sure they're better Christians than me. I just have no desire to watch Christians who don't know any better but are doing the best with what they have be mocked and ridiculed.

Amen.
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« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2012, 02:34:04 PM »

I've avoided watching this for years, and while this thread has piqued my interest more successfully than anything I've read about it so far, I'm still hesitant to watch it. I can't really explain why, either, because it's not like I personally have a dog in this fight anymore... but I was raised in an evangelical Protestant church with a charismatic flavor, and my family still goes. I think their theology is misguided, but their sincerity and love for God is authentic. I'm sure they're better Christians than me. I just have no desire to watch Christians who don't know any better but are doing the best with what they have be mocked and ridiculed.

This is good.
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« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2012, 02:58:24 PM »

Sorry if my original post lacked tact. I just get appaled by this kind of stuff.

Some good stuff from Gebre and FormerReformer that I hope to get to later.
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« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2012, 02:59:00 PM »

The only thing that's "shocking" is that people take this documentary seriously. It is a complete lie. Why don't they make a documentary about the Evangelicals I've met in real life? Not enough shock value in that to market it.

Oh, and the world is full of parents and teachers who place very strict limits on what their children are allowed to think. It's not just Evangelical Fundamentalists.
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Paint It Red


« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2012, 03:01:53 PM »

The only thing that's "shocking" is that people take this documentary seriously. It is a complete lie. Why don't they make a documentary about the Evangelicals I've met in real life? Not enough shock value in that to market it.

Oh, and the world is full of parents and teachers who place very strict limits on what their children are allowed to think. It's not just Evangelical Fundamentalists.
Well of course the filmakers are going to cherrypick an extremist evangelical group for entertainment and shock value, but this sort of stuff isn't as rare as you might think.
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
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