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Author Topic: Marriage and venereal disease  (Read 1795 times) Average Rating: 0
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Gabriel
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« on: May 03, 2009, 10:35:08 AM »

What is the Orthodox answer to a couple that would want to get married where one party has an incurable venereal disease?

I've looked at the Catholic answer.  The answer is that persons having incurable venereal diseases have no business getting married at all, which I can't bring myself to stomach.

I did a forum search... didn't get any bites.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 10:35:48 AM by Gabriel » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2009, 10:54:46 AM »

Why is this on the Convert Issues board?
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Gabriel
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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2009, 11:25:22 AM »

Because it could be an obstacle to someone wanting to convert?

If it's such a bother that you need to point it out as a mod, just move it.

*shrug*
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 11:27:37 AM by Gabriel » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2009, 11:42:04 AM »

I see Gabriel's reasoning.

Usually it's only catechumens who post in here though mate Wink

Whilst I tend not to concern myself with these sorts of issues, there seem to be few people about right now so I may as well offer what I think could be the right answer but please confirm it with others also.

The Orthodox Church has both now and historically had numerous married virgins. As such, there should be no objection to this couple marrying based on the Western idea that the purpose of marriage is to produce children. We Orthodox see the purpose of marriage as being a means for two people to bring one another closer to God. Would the marriage fulfil this purpose?
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Gabriel
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2009, 12:01:37 PM »

Usually it's only catechumens who post in here though mate Wink

Well, I honestly didn't see any better forum to put it in.

Would the marriage fulfil this purpose?

I never really viewed marriage like that, and I wouldn't think most people, Orthodox Christian or not, do either. 

Then again, I could be completely wrong.
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2009, 02:00:40 PM »

Seriously this is just one of the most weird posts I've ever seen in my years on message boards.  Seriously, I mean seriously.  It has NOTHING to do with the convert board either.  Regardless if you say it has something to do with someone converting.  If they just converted because the Orthodox give them the answer they want to their selfish need then that's no reason to convert.  What a ridiculous question to ask in public.
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2009, 02:07:56 PM »

What is the Orthodox answer to a couple that would want to get married where one party has an incurable venereal disease?

I've looked at the Catholic answer.  The answer is that persons having incurable venereal diseases have no business getting married at all, which I can't bring myself to stomach.

I did a forum search... didn't get any bites.

I doubt there is an "Orthodox" answer to this question. Perhaps you would be better served asking yourself (if the question pertains to a situation in which you find yourself) if you could live with this arrangement.
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Gabriel
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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2009, 02:09:35 PM »

Seriously this is just one of the most weird posts I've ever seen in my years on message boards.  Seriously, I mean seriously.  It has NOTHING to do with the convert board either.  Regardless if you say it has something to do with someone converting.  If they just converted because the Orthodox give them the answer they want to their selfish need then that's no reason to convert.  What a ridiculous question to ask in public.

Thank you for not answering my question.

Second, if you think that people don't look at a religion's views on marriage, gay marriage, and abortion, then you've been living under a rock.

If you have such a problem with "such a question" being asked in public, then maybe you should go live in a cave if something like that affects you. 

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2009, 02:11:57 PM »

I doubt there is an "Orthodox" answer to this question.

Well, why not?

Perhaps you would be better served asking yourself (if the question pertains to a situation in which you find yourself) if you could live with this arrangement.

It's not about "living with this arrangement."  I want to know what the church's stance on people with venereal diseases getting married and having a life in the church in regards to contraception, the purpose of marriage period, and the approaching of the chalice.

Honestly, folks.  It shouldn't be that hard to figure out.  If you think people with VD don't want to get married and have a life in the church, then...

I dunno what to tell you.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 02:12:11 PM by Gabriel » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2009, 02:14:25 PM »

Here, let me help you prudish types that are SO affected by SUCH a scandalous question to give an example of what a catholic apologist would say:
Quote
Persons with contagious venereal diseases have no business getting married—period! To do so would be the height of irresponsibility. Marriage is not a right. It is a vocation. One is called to marriage. The final sign that one has a vocation to marriage is similar to the final sign that one has a vocation to religious life. It is the approval of Christ’s Church.

A marriage is not complete until it is consummated. In consummating their wedding vows the husband and wife verify the unconditional “I do”of their wedding vows by means of their bodies. Every time they have such intercourse, they verify their sacramental union.

To contracept is to deny the “I do”. There is no unconditional act of love in contraception. It is the conditioning of the act so that the act is closed to the possibility of creating new life. It is limited to taking pleasure. It transforms an unconditional act of love to a conditional act of selfishness.

No one has the right to afflict a spouse with desease, let alone afflict future children!

Now.... is there an Orthodox equivalent of something like that?
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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2009, 02:19:21 PM »

Here, let me help you prudish types that are SO affected by SUCH a scandalous question to give an example of what a catholic apologist would say:
Quote
Persons with contagious venereal diseases have no business getting married—period! To do so would be the height of irresponsibility. Marriage is not a right. It is a vocation. One is called to marriage. The final sign that one has a vocation to marriage is similar to the final sign that one has a vocation to religious life. It is the approval of Christ’s Church.

A marriage is not complete until it is consummated. In consummating their wedding vows the husband and wife verify the unconditional “I do”of their wedding vows by means of their bodies. Every time they have such intercourse, they verify their sacramental union.

To contracept is to deny the “I do”. There is no unconditional act of love in contraception. It is the conditioning of the act so that the act is closed to the possibility of creating new life. It is limited to taking pleasure. It transforms an unconditional act of love to a conditional act of selfishness.

No one has the right to afflict a spouse with desease, let alone afflict future children!

Now.... is there an Orthodox equivalent of something like that?

This response dealt primarily with the implications venereal disease would have for married couples. Am I correct to assume that the implications for marriage are what most interest you?

If so, then you might be better off doing research on the purpose and expectations of sexuality in Orthodox marriage as compared to Roman Catholic marriage. There are plenty of threads about that here at OC.net.  To sum up a few of those existing threads: procreation is not the sole purpose of marriage, nor is procreation the sole purpose of sexual relations. That being the case, you can probably do your own math from there.
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Gabriel
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2009, 02:23:07 PM »

To sum up a few of those existing threads: procreation is not the sole purpose of marriage, nor is procreation the sole purpose of sexual relations. That being the case, you can probably do your own math from there.

Fair enough, then.
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2009, 03:42:31 PM »

Our advice would be that the couple meet with a priest to discuss the issue.  Many issues like this require the charisms that we hold our pastors and bishops to have. Unlike Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy usually does not make a blanket statement that fits all situations.  Orthodoxy would prefer that those who have the charisms for pastoral counseling (our priests, bishops , and spiritual fathers) meet with the parties, pray with them educate them and guide them along the path that our Triune God is leading them.

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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2009, 04:02:39 PM »

Seriously this is just one of the most weird posts I've ever seen in my years on message boards.  Seriously, I mean seriously.  It has NOTHING to do with the convert board either.  Regardless if you say it has something to do with someone converting.  If they just converted because the Orthodox give them the answer they want to their selfish need then that's no reason to convert.  What a ridiculous question to ask in public.

Thank you for not answering my question.

Second, if you think that people don't look at a religion's views on marriage, gay marriage, and abortion, then you've been living under a rock.

If you have such a problem with "such a question" being asked in public, then maybe you should go live in a cave if something like that affects you. 

 Roll Eyes

 I apologize for being insensitive about your upcoming wedding. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 04:04:46 PM by username! » Logged

PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2009, 07:49:56 PM »

Here, let me help you prudish types that are SO affected by SUCH a scandalous question to give an example of what a catholic apologist would say:
Quote
Persons with contagious venereal diseases have no business getting married—period! To do so would be the height of irresponsibility. Marriage is not a right. It is a vocation. One is called to marriage. The final sign that one has a vocation to marriage is similar to the final sign that one has a vocation to religious life. It is the approval of Christ’s Church.

A marriage is not complete until it is consummated. In consummating their wedding vows the husband and wife verify the unconditional “I do”of their wedding vows by means of their bodies. Every time they have such intercourse, they verify their sacramental union.

To contracept is to deny the “I do”. There is no unconditional act of love in contraception. It is the conditioning of the act so that the act is closed to the possibility of creating new life. It is limited to taking pleasure. It transforms an unconditional act of love to a conditional act of selfishness.

No one has the right to afflict a spouse with desease, let alone afflict future children!

Now.... is there an Orthodox equivalent of something like that?
1.  Where did you glean this quote?
2.  How are you so certain it represents the universal teaching of the Roman Catholic magisterium?
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2009, 12:09:38 PM »

1.  Where did you glean this quote?
2.  How are you so certain it represents the universal teaching of the Roman Catholic magisterium?

I quoted it from the catholic forum that half the posters here have contempt for from their "Ask an Apologist" section.  Normally, I know the rules don't allow a person to quote without them being here, but those "Ask an Apologist" answers are locked and cannot be replied to, and they're available for public consumption.  I simply posted it as a point of reference of what kind of answer I'm looking for.

Well, I don't.  But, that's the answer you'll find on that website given by a priest and 9/10 times, if it comes to sex, condoms/birth control, or abortion, catholic consensus is pretty consistent.   
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2009, 12:18:06 PM »

This topic is weighing on my heart based upon the response I'm getting from the posters here.  If it's so scandalous that it needs to be moved to a private forum, then just lock it. 

It isn't worth causing anyone to stumble or be afflicted any more than what they already have to deal with in their life.

I'm sorry.
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2009, 03:54:08 PM »

This topic is weighing on my heart based upon the response I'm getting from the posters here.  If it's so scandalous that it needs to be moved to a private forum, then just lock it. 

It isn't worth causing anyone to stumble or be afflicted any more than what they already have to deal with in their life.

I'm sorry.

Just always remember to use your head when you start a thread.  Often people come to online message boards and ask the public to give opinion on their private life or their spiritual life.  These issues should be left to that person to ask the appropriate professional not the internet message board community.  Just a thought when you ask heavily personal questions and then expect the answers you want but don't get them.  In the case of the question you posed perhaps the best person to ask is the priest or minister.  The person marrying you can answer this question far better than some stranger on a message board.
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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2009, 04:30:04 AM »

Well, one of the purposes of marriage is to produce children. It's one of the petitions in the Great Litany at the beginning of the ceremony:

"That they may be granted children for the continuation of the race, and all their petitions which are unto salvation, let us pray to the Lord."

However, I agree that it's not the sole purpose, nor would it be a crime to not reproduce in such a situation. Obviously an issue like this would benefit from counseling with a priest before marriage. I would also say there probably isn't an Orthodox answer. Not all questions have an Orthodox answer. Like "Should I drink regular or diet soda? Diet soda, because a lower intake of calories imitates the fasting that Christ did during his forty days in the wilderness." Haha...

In addition, Joseph was betrothed to the Theotokos, and they never "consummated" their marriage, to use the aforementioned RC terminology. Does the RCC chastise the Ever-Blessed Virgin for not producing children with Joseph? How about them apples? Smiley
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 04:34:59 AM by shep4569 » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2009, 02:54:17 AM »

Well, one of the purposes of marriage is to produce children. It's one of the petitions in the Great Litany at the beginning of the ceremony:

"That they may be granted children for the continuation of the race, and all their petitions which are unto salvation, let us pray to the Lord."

However, I agree that it's not the sole purpose, nor would it be a crime to not reproduce in such a situation. Obviously an issue like this would benefit from counseling with a priest before marriage. I would also say there probably isn't an Orthodox answer. Not all questions have an Orthodox answer. Like "Should I drink regular or diet soda? Diet soda, because a lower intake of calories imitates the fasting that Christ did during his forty days in the wilderness." Haha...

In addition, Joseph was betrothed to the Theotokos, and they never "consummated" their marriage, to use the aforementioned RC terminology. Does the RCC chastise the Ever-Blessed Virgin for not producing children with Joseph? How about them apples? Smiley
We believe in her perpetual virginity. I don't think you were serious? (apples to oranges, I would say)
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