Personal Story of Fr. George Johnson

[JoeZollars]

Just found this at the site where I found Fr. Seraphim's personal story.  Also thought this was very interesting and provides immense food for thought:

http://www.orthodox.net/falbum/frgeorge.htm

Joe Zollars

[Keble]

I'm pretty sure that I was at Fr. George's ordination; of course, the various people who invited us to come were mostly 1st generation Russians who were trying to get me to sing in the choir with them (I declined).

[Frobie]

That cathedral where he serves is beautiful. Just don't put your hands in your pockets.  

[JoeZollars]

what happens if you put your hands in your pockets?

Joe Zollars

[Anastasios]

Old Russian men will take you to a back room--it happened to Clint (ByzantineClint)! lol

anastasios

[JoeZollars]

Oy! and what did they do to him?   why? is it considered insulting or something?

Joe Zollars

[Keble]

Well, it wouldn't have been a middle-aged Russian man-- they would all either be in the choir or out on the steps catching a smoke.

[Frobie]

LOL.

Joe, from what Clint says, the man told him not to do that as it is disrespectful. It happened just when we had arrived near the middle of Liturgy. I believe Clint was just a little nervous. Nonetheless, when I saw him last week he told me he wanted to go back there.

Matt

[Mor Ephrem]

So do I.  Summerfest II, guys, let's go!

[JoeZollars]

If we can get Mor, Froby, and Clint Baptized, I'll be there.

Joe Zollars

[David]

I think Mor, it'll be more like Winterfest.

[Mor Ephrem]

Oh, for the glory of those days of yore in days to come...

BTW, I am baptised.

[JoeZollars]

but not Baptized.

Joe Zollars

[Mor Ephrem]

Whatever, Joe.

[TomS]

I will rise to Phils defense .....ummmm defence. whatever.

[JoeZollars]

there is no grace in the mysteries of heretical sects.

Joe Zollars

[Mor Ephrem]

Thanks, Tom.  I don't think he was talking about my spelling, however, but whether or not my baptism has grace.  Oh well.

[Keble]

there is no grace in the mysteries of heretical sects.

That, my son, is a heresy.

And have we remembered to bring up ROAC in this thread?

[JoeZollars]

like it or lump it, heretics are not Baptized and are without Grace.  And Nektarios, dont' even try and accuse me of Donatism.  For the millionath time, when someone become a heretic, they become incapable of ordaining (in the case of a Bishop) or any other Mystery.  There is only one Mystery-the Church and what she does.  By believing heresy, heretics put themselves outside the Church.

Joe Zollars

PS:  once again I would like the record to show that it was not me who first mentioned ROAC in this thread.

[JoeZollars]

keble, as someone who is not related to me, not a priest, and a heretic to boot, I think it is innapropriate for you to call me "my son".

Joe Zollars

[Mor Ephrem]

like it or lump it, heretics are not Baptized and are without Grace.  And Nektarios, dont' even try and accuse me of Donatism.  For the millionath time, when someone become a heretic, they become incapable of ordaining (in the case of a Bishop) or any other Mystery.  There is only one Mystery-the Church and what she does.  By believing heresy, heretics put themselves outside the Church.

I presume the same goes for schismatics from the Church.  Which brings me to a question I have long wanted to ask self-assured converts and converts to be.  

How are you so sure you have found the true Church when you jump into such sects as (forgive me) ROAC?  

For instance, to take the example of the Oriental Orthodox (which I presume is the "heretical sect" Joe references), many converts of the traditionalist EO persuasion are so sure that we are heretics, but when you talk to them, they don't even know what we believe, but only what they think and have been told by others that we believe, often in spite of Oriental Orthodox trying to set them straight.  There are even some who don't want to know anything about us, seemingly for fear of being infected by the heretical contagion, unless we are willing to give up.  

Very well.  But what if you guys are wrong?  What if, for instance, the Oriental Orthodox are right, and the EO wrong?  This is a way of thinking that most people do not take in my experience.  It is as if they do not want to look at all sides of the issue, but are content to be satisfied with only half, and to then join some small group, and then to pontificate as if they knew it all.  To be honest, it is sickening on many levels, but especially on one level, for in not looking at all sides of the issue, you are potentially putting your salvation in danger.  What if your grasp of the issue is wrong or incomplete?  How are you sure?  You don't even know half the story!  

This almost automatic railing against that which you do not know anything about is very dangerous.  At least study the issue and know something of which you speak, lest in rash judgement (potentially against the True Church of Christ) and all that comes with it you find yourself on the not so bright side of the Last Judgement.

[Keble]

keble, as someone who is not related to me, not a priest, and a heretic to boot, I think it is innapropriate for you to call me "my son".

You may dislike it, but the facts remain: you, by your own standards, are also a heretic, and you are young enough to be my son. It's a safe bet that I know more about the Anglican-to-Orthodox conversion experience than you do, because I've been following it since you were in elementary school.

You are wrapping yourself in the mantle of an authority that you do not have. You are asserting a mastery you do not have. Indeed, having watched your history over the past year or so, and having heard your tale, I am not convinced that you have any deep commitment to Orthodoxy. It would not surprise me to learn in the spring that you have attached yourself to yet another sect (or gone back to some group which you had previously visited). That is not a mark of maturity in faith.

I believe that everyone is a heretic, just as everyone is a sinner. Thus, it isn't a slur that excites me that much. I'm making an exception for you because you've plainly invested yourself in the error that places salvation in organizational fealty. Anyone can read the Gospels and see that this isn't so; anyone can read the Gospels can see that Jesus condemns investing one's salvation in such a manner.

As I said, I've watched a lot of trips from Anglicanism into Orthodoxy. And unfortunately, what I see all too often is that what is good in Anglicanism is put aside, and what is bad in Orthdoxy is picked up in its place. (And ironically, a lot of what Orthodoxy shares with Anglicanism is part of what gets set aside.) This is of course my opinion, and I won't dogmatize it or for that matter deny that it has anything to do with my own personal circumstances. You should do likewise, because that is mature.

[Frobie]

Isn't ROCOR graceless, Joe? So why should we be baptised there?!!

Matt, Enlightened since March 1983

[JoeZollars]

that is a complicated question.  You see because the fall of ROCA into heresy is much more recent, there are still many in ROCA who have Grace, but the Theology of the synod (that is to say Kyprianism) is heretical and therefore anathamatized by the ROCA itself.  it is my guess that what few true Orthodox people are left in ROCA will become ROAC after the December Synod.

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

so the long and short of it is you should go south a little bit to St. Basil of Kinesthema (http://www.russianorthodox-roac.org) where Batushka Dionysi and Matushka Christina (both very wonderful people!) are serving.  

Joe Zollars

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