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Author Topic: Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful  (Read 13585 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: May 01, 2009, 11:24:06 PM »

So in your opinion, what is an acceptable interogation technique for a known, self-confessed terrorist in our custody?
Well it isn't torture or threat of death.
People will say anything, agree to anything to avoid suffering and death, so what's the point? The information is useless.
Espionage is a much more effective and reliable way of gathering data.


Man, you like answering questions I didn't ask and commenting on statements I didn't make.  I didn't ask what you found unacceptable, I asked what interrogation techniques do you find acceptable.  I would say that is a reasonable question in light of the discussion.
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« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2009, 11:26:31 PM »

Lock them in a room, and blast Roseanne Barr singing the National Anthem for a solid 12hrs, it will bring anyone to tears of insanity...

Or lock them in a dark room for hours with The Doors "This is the end" blaring over speakers.  It works on pledges, or at least 15 years ago it did! Wink
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« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2009, 11:29:41 PM »

So in your opinion, what is an acceptable interogation technique for a known, self-confessed terrorist in our custody?
Well it isn't torture or threat of death.
People will say anything, agree to anything to avoid suffering and death, so what's the point? The information is useless.
Espionage is a much more effective and reliable way of gathering data.


Man, you like answering questions I didn't ask and commenting on statements I didn't make.  I didn't ask what you found unacceptable, I asked what interrogation techniques do you find acceptable.  I would say that is a reasonable question in light of the discussion.
And I answered quite clearly that torture is a useless form of "interrogation" and espionage is much better at obtaining useful information. Get someone on the inside. Use con tricks, tracking, bugging etc. But torture is useless because you'll never be able to trust the information for the reasons I outlined many times (and you have even quoted them!)
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« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2009, 11:32:33 PM »

But why, if it is part of a war effort that is in self-defense?  How is it any different than the other ugly aspects of war?

Dear God! That you should even have to ask that question!
Torture serves no purpose but to satisfy sadism and bloodlust. There is nothing self-defensive about it (see above).

It is very easy and comfortable to make that moralistic condemnation.  Put until it has been your individual and personal responsibility to collect intelligence and prevent future attacks, to claim such a black and white moralism seems entirely out of place.  

Supposing we agree that a defense war is at least morally permissible as a lesser of two evils - is a sniper shooting an off duty soldier while he's urinating any better?  What I'm getting at is that a war effort is not some romanticised thing of honourable actions - a lot of dirty things must be done.  I'm not saying they should all be seen as normative, nor should they not be subject to an independent review (and like I said, I disagree for the most part with how the Bush administration has been using torture).  
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livefreeordie
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« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2009, 11:33:00 PM »

So in your opinion, what is an acceptable interogation technique for a known, self-confessed terrorist in our custody?
Well it isn't torture or threat of death.
People will say anything, agree to anything to avoid suffering and death, so what's the point? The information is useless.
Espionage is a much more effective and reliable way of gathering data.


Man, you like answering questions I didn't ask and commenting on statements I didn't make.  I didn't ask what you found unacceptable, I asked what interrogation techniques do you find acceptable.  I would say that is a reasonable question in light of the discussion.
And I answered quite clearly that torture is a useless form of "interrogation" and espionage is much better at obtaining useful information. Get someone on the inside. Use con tricks, tracking, bugging etc. But torture is useless because you'll never be able to trust the information for the reasons I outlined many times (and you have even quoted them!)

Are you listening or lost in anger.  I know you think torture is useless.  What forms of interrogation do you feel are not torture and would be acceptable.  Or do you think prisoners shouldn't be questioned for intelligence at all?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 11:36:07 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2009, 11:34:35 PM »

So in your opinion, what is an acceptable interogation technique for a known, self-confessed terrorist in our custody?
Well it isn't torture or threat of death.
People will say anything, agree to anything to avoid suffering and death, so what's the point? The information is useless.
Espionage is a much more effective and reliable way of gathering data.


Man, you like answering questions I didn't ask and commenting on statements I didn't make.  I didn't ask what you found unacceptable, I asked what interrogation techniques do you find acceptable.  I would say that is a reasonable question in light of the discussion.
And I answered quite clearly that torture is a useless form of "interrogation" and espionage is much better at obtaining useful information. Get someone on the inside. Use con tricks, tracking, bugging etc. But torture is useless because you'll never be able to trust the information for the reasons I outlined many times (and you have even quoted them!)


Which is why you acquire multiple subjects with knowledge of similar information and you grant relief based on verification with other subjects and general logical consistancy, not based on giving information that you want to hear. Yes, all information gained by torture is dubious, but there are ways to verify.
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« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2009, 11:49:29 PM »

So in your opinion, what is an acceptable interogation technique for a known, self-confessed terrorist in our custody?
Well it isn't torture or threat of death.
People will say anything, agree to anything to avoid suffering and death, so what's the point? The information is useless.
Espionage is a much more effective and reliable way of gathering data.


Man, you like answering questions I didn't ask and commenting on statements I didn't make.  I didn't ask what you found unacceptable, I asked what interrogation techniques do you find acceptable.  I would say that is a reasonable question in light of the discussion.
And I answered quite clearly that torture is a useless form of "interrogation" and espionage is much better at obtaining useful information. Get someone on the inside. Use con tricks, tracking, bugging etc. But torture is useless because you'll never be able to trust the information for the reasons I outlined many times (and you have even quoted them!)

Are you listening or lost in anger.  I know you think torture is useless.  What forms of interrogation do you not feel are torture and would be acceptable.  Or do you think prisoners shouldn't be questioned for intelligence at all?
I'm not angry, I just can't see the point of torturing prisoners to get information if it does not add veracity to their answers, and I don't understand why you can't see that. You'll get much more accurate information out of them by winning their trust. The question to ask is: "what would you be prepared to say or agree to under torture or threat of torture?"  If you were prepared to die to defend the US and your fellow Servicemen, would you give information under "interrogation" which placed them at risk?
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« Reply #97 on: May 02, 2009, 12:03:22 AM »

So in your opinion, what is an acceptable interogation technique for a known, self-confessed terrorist in our custody?
Well it isn't torture or threat of death.
People will say anything, agree to anything to avoid suffering and death, so what's the point? The information is useless.
Espionage is a much more effective and reliable way of gathering data.


Man, you like answering questions I didn't ask and commenting on statements I didn't make.  I didn't ask what you found unacceptable, I asked what interrogation techniques do you find acceptable.  I would say that is a reasonable question in light of the discussion.
And I answered quite clearly that torture is a useless form of "interrogation" and espionage is much better at obtaining useful information. Get someone on the inside. Use con tricks, tracking, bugging etc. But torture is useless because you'll never be able to trust the information for the reasons I outlined many times (and you have even quoted them!)

Are you listening or lost in anger.  I know you think torture is useless.  What forms of interrogation do you not feel are torture and would be acceptable.  Or do you think prisoners shouldn't be questioned for intelligence at all?
I'm not angry, I just can't see the point of torturing prisoners to get information if it does not add veracity to their answers, and I don't understand why you can't see that. You'll get much more accurate information out of them by winning their trust. The question to ask is: "what would you be prepared to say or agree to under torture or threat of torture?"  If you were prepared to die to defend the US and your fellow Servicemen, would you give information under "interrogation" which placed them at risk?

This isn't a trick question.  It's very clear you don't see the point of torture and believe it results in useless information. It's clear as day.  I see it like I see the moon hanging in the sky.  But that's not what I asked you.

What do believe is an appropriate way to get information from prisoners?  Now to be really clear so you understand, I didn't say "what's a good way to gather information on terrorist activities" to which one good answer might be "espionage".

Or maybe if I ask in a different way it will make it easier for you.  You have the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks in custody.  He has information on impending attacks, some of which only he knows.  How would you gather information from him without crossing your "torture" line. Or another way, you say we shouldn't have waterboarded him.  Then what should have we done to get information from him personally? Or do really think it would have been as simple as gaining his trust?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 12:04:03 AM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #98 on: May 02, 2009, 12:28:03 AM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...
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« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2009, 12:57:31 AM »

I know you are going to hate this answer George, but 'unlawful combatants' (who are in their own ways violating Geneva and Hague conventions) are not subject to POW status.  Geneva is moot then.  I'm not stating my support or condemnation, but just pointing it out.

You are absolutely right.
I hate that answer. And the reason I hate it is because it is the lie used to convince the US public that torture of unlawful combatants is justifiable.
The torture of unlawful combatants is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions.

Here is what the Geneva Conventions actually say about unlawful combatants who are not subject to POW status:
Quote
Article 45(3)
"Any person who has taken part in hostilities, who is not entitled to prisoner-of-war status and who does not benefit from more favourable treatment in accordance with the Fourth Convention shall have the right at all times to the protection of Article 75 of this Protocol. In occupied territory, any such person, unless he is held as a spy, shall also be entitled, notwithstanding Article 5 of the Fourth Convention, to his rights of communication under that Convention.”

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1995/ukpga_19950027_en_3

That's nice, George.  But they had a revolution here a while ago, and Acts of the British Parliament are not binding on the U.S.
You do realize that the Geneva Conventions are a product of the 20th Century, that they follow the American Revolution by a good 200 years, and were agreed upon by much more than just the British Parliament?  (Why do I even need to remind you of this? Huh)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 12:59:11 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #100 on: May 02, 2009, 03:14:43 AM »

The last scenes in Gibson's Braveheart....THAT was torture. Threatening a terrorist with a caterpillar is not.

But when the suspect has been lead to believe that the insect is a stinging insect, does that not qualify as torture?  If I go rob a bank using a water pistol, does that mean I can't be charged the same way as if I had used a real gun?
No. And your robber might be convicted of armed robbery but merit a much lighter sentence.
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« Reply #101 on: May 02, 2009, 07:38:27 AM »

I know you are going to hate this answer George, but 'unlawful combatants' (who are in their own ways violating Geneva and Hague conventions) are not subject to POW status.  Geneva is moot then.  I'm not stating my support or condemnation, but just pointing it out.

You are absolutely right.
I hate that answer. And the reason I hate it is because it is the lie used to convince the US public that torture of unlawful combatants is justifiable.
The torture of unlawful combatants is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions.

Here is what the Geneva Conventions actually say about unlawful combatants who are not subject to POW status:
Quote
Article 45(3)
"Any person who has taken part in hostilities, who is not entitled to prisoner-of-war status and who does not benefit from more favourable treatment in accordance with the Fourth Convention shall have the right at all times to the protection of Article 75 of this Protocol. In occupied territory, any such person, unless he is held as a spy, shall also be entitled, notwithstanding Article 5 of the Fourth Convention, to his rights of communication under that Convention.”

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1995/ukpga_19950027_en_3

That's nice, George.  But they had a revolution here a while ago, and Acts of the British Parliament are not binding on the U.S.
You do realize that the Geneva Conventions are a product of the 20th Century, that they follow the American Revolution by a good 200 years, and were agreed upon by much more than just the British Parliament?  (Why do I even need to remind you of this? Huh)

I believe the part George exerpted has not been ratified by the U.S. Senate.  Every country can ratify it (and practically all have, the U.S. being part of some notable exceptions), but that won't make it binding on the U.S. (I don't recall that the original protocol had an activation clause after a certain number ratified, but I could be wrong).

Of course, that often leads to interesting tales: like the U.S. bombing Libya and going into the Gulf of Sidra to enforce provisions of a treaty that the U.S. did not ratify.
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« Reply #102 on: May 02, 2009, 08:01:38 AM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 08:02:13 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #103 on: May 02, 2009, 01:46:36 PM »

I cannot understand how any person of Christian faith can justify the use of lies and deceit, and bringing mental anguish upon a fellow human, as a defense of the christian way of life.
regardless of information that might be obtained, i see this as advocating evil and propagating it as well. Use of military power to go and get those who have physically attacked us is one thing, The use of torture  (which is what these techniques are, no matter how you try to justify it) to further an offensive strategy, or try and prevent another attack from those who would wish you harm is blatantly wrong. And I believe it's an affront to the Lord.

There are so many other ways of getting intelligence without the use of evil acts, which i see as mimicing those who we are afraid of. ( The more we justify it, the further we are from God) 

Just to pose a query, if you were driving along a crowded moutain pass, following a long line of cars, and you saw everyone ahead of you suddenly veer of the road and go off a cliff, would you do the same? No, because you know where it leads. Why would you advocate evil if you know where it leads?

IMO We don't belong where we are not wanted. Did the Apostle's continue to preach in cities or lands that would not listen or believe? No they left them for the Lord to judge. And i believe we should follow their lead.

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« Reply #104 on: May 02, 2009, 04:28:15 PM »

I know you are going to hate this answer George, but 'unlawful combatants' (who are in their own ways violating Geneva and Hague conventions) are not subject to POW status.  Geneva is moot then.  I'm not stating my support or condemnation, but just pointing it out.

You are absolutely right.
I hate that answer. And the reason I hate it is because it is the lie used to convince the US public that torture of unlawful combatants is justifiable.
The torture of unlawful combatants is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions.

Here is what the Geneva Conventions actually say about unlawful combatants who are not subject to POW status:
Quote
Article 45(3)
"Any person who has taken part in hostilities, who is not entitled to prisoner-of-war status and who does not benefit from more favourable treatment in accordance with the Fourth Convention shall have the right at all times to the protection of Article 75 of this Protocol. In occupied territory, any such person, unless he is held as a spy, shall also be entitled, notwithstanding Article 5 of the Fourth Convention, to his rights of communication under that Convention.”

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1995/ukpga_19950027_en_3

That's nice, George.  But they had a revolution here a while ago, and Acts of the British Parliament are not binding on the U.S.
You do realize that the Geneva Conventions are a product of the 20th Century, that they follow the American Revolution by a good 200 years, and were agreed upon by much more than just the British Parliament?  (Why do I even need to remind you of this? Huh)

I believe the part George exerpted has not been ratified by the U.S. Senate.  Every country can ratify it (and practically all have, the U.S. being part of some notable exceptions), but that won't make it binding on the U.S. (I don't recall that the original protocol had an activation clause after a certain number ratified, but I could be wrong).

Of course, that often leads to interesting tales: like the U.S. bombing Libya and going into the Gulf of Sidra to enforce provisions of a treaty that the U.S. did not ratify.
But then we're not talking about the Geneva Conventions as if they are the acts of British Parliament; rather, we're talking about the role of the U.S. Senate in agreeing to international treaties such as the Geneva Conventions, as this role is detailed in the Constitution.

Then again, this tangent between you (Isa) and me addresses the politics of torture and U.S. ratification of the Geneva Conventions, which really has nothing to do with the larger debate of how we view torture in the light of Christian ethics. police
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« Reply #105 on: May 02, 2009, 06:00:30 PM »

Not relative to the topic at hand; if you want a scenario, how about this one-
A man has a bomb that he's strapping to himself and and plans on detonating it at a crowded market filled with women and children.  In fact, all of your God-children will be there OzGeorge.  If he gets there, almost all will die and/or be horribly maimed; both physically and psychologically.  Two blocks away, you and another interrogator have captured a man whom you know can stop this by disclosing the bombers location.  Unfortunately, he ain't talking and he wants your God-children dead.  What will you do OzGeorge?  What will you do...
Now imagine this, Gabriel. That man is your godson. What do you do?

After having worked with children, I see everyone as though they were my students. All of us were children once, and some still are. No one blames a child for acting without thinking, for retaliating instead of making peace. Those adults who still do are merely people who have not grown up yet. We should have compassion on them, for the life of a child is difficult indeed. We should, when circumstances allow it, to guide them to better decisions. But it is a serious error to behave ourselves in a juvenile manner, thinking they will understand it. Children learn from adults, whose way of thinking and acting is sometimes beyond their comprehension. Is it not also reasonable to believe that those who behave like juveniles will, if their minds are open, learn from those who act in a nobler way? Unfortunately, we understand that many are not willing to learn, in which case we have nothing to teach. Yet their attitude does not stop us from having compassion on them, and that does not stop us from doing what we know to be a better way. So let us have compassion, though it may indeed kill us, rather than embrace violence, which will not quell the violent.
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« Reply #106 on: May 02, 2009, 10:07:10 PM »

Not relative to the topic at hand; if you want a scenario, how about this one-
A man has a bomb that he's strapping to himself and and plans on detonating it at a crowded market filled with women and children.  In fact, all of your God-children will be there OzGeorge.  If he gets there, almost all will die and/or be horribly maimed; both physically and psychologically.  Two blocks away, you and another interrogator have captured a man whom you know can stop this by disclosing the bombers location.  Unfortunately, he ain't talking and he wants your God-children dead.  What will you do OzGeorge?  What will you do...
Now imagine this, Gabriel. That man is your godson. What do you do?

After having worked with children, I see everyone as though they were my students. All of us were children once, and some still are. No one blames a child for acting without thinking, for retaliating instead of making peace. Those adults who still do are merely people who have not grown up yet. We should have compassion on them, for the life of a child is difficult indeed. We should, when circumstances allow it, to guide them to better decisions. But it is a serious error to behave ourselves in a juvenile manner, thinking they will understand it. Children learn from adults, whose way of thinking and acting is sometimes beyond their comprehension. Is it not also reasonable to believe that those who behave like juveniles will, if their minds are open, learn from those who act in a nobler way? Unfortunately, we understand that many are not willing to learn, in which case we have nothing to teach. Yet their attitude does not stop us from having compassion on them, and that does not stop us from doing what we know to be a better way. So let us have compassion, though it may indeed kill us, rather than embrace violence, which will not quell the violent.

^This.  As much as it bothers me to think of my own family in danger, I can't help but think of the people who are recruited to be suicide bombers.  They're someone's sons and daughters too and they've been influenced to believe what they are doing is a noble thing for the good of the many (sound familiar?).  I don't expect war to be an easy thing or a black and white issue and that's my point:  I think we're finally beginning to realize that we can't approach war as Us versus Them anymore.  It's not a matter of "shoot the guy who looks like this" it's now having to discern which person in the market place is likely to have a bomb strapped to them. 
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« Reply #107 on: May 02, 2009, 10:41:40 PM »

Um...if my son was in that situation mentioned above I would quickly and without remorse use waterboarding to get him to give up the information. There is no permanent harm and it would save lives.

But then I spank on occasion so I must be evil anyway Roll Eyes
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« Reply #108 on: May 03, 2009, 10:09:47 AM »

Um...if my son was in that situation mentioned above I would quickly and without remorse use waterboarding to get him to give up the information. There is no permanent harm and it would save lives.

But then I spank on occasion so I must be evil anyway Roll Eyes


Is your child under the impression that he is going to die when you spank him? Hardly the same thing. Sad you would torture your own child without remorse, let alone another human being.
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« Reply #109 on: May 03, 2009, 10:53:55 AM »

Um...if my son was in that situation mentioned above I would quickly and without remorse use waterboarding to get him to give up the information. There is no permanent harm and it would save lives.

But then I spank on occasion so I must be evil anyway Roll Eyes


Is your child under the impression that he is going to die when you spank him? Hardly the same thing. Sad you would torture your own child without remorse, let alone another human being.
So you define waterboarding as torture?  Is this an absolute definition, or just your opinion?
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« Reply #110 on: May 03, 2009, 11:48:16 AM »

Um...if my son was in that situation mentioned above I would quickly and without remorse use waterboarding to get him to give up the information. There is no permanent harm and it would save lives.

But then I spank on occasion so I must be evil anyway Roll Eyes


Is your child under the impression that he is going to die when you spank him? Hardly the same thing. Sad you would torture your own child without remorse, let alone another human being.
So you define waterboarding as torture?  Is this an absolute definition, or just your opinion?

Any painful coercive technique that simulates dying and was employed by the Spanish Inquisition, the Japanese during WWII, and the Vietnamese during the Vietnam War, sounds quite a bit like torture.
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« Reply #111 on: May 03, 2009, 12:13:28 PM »

Um...if my son was in that situation mentioned above I would quickly and without remorse use waterboarding to get him to give up the information. There is no permanent harm and it would save lives.

But then I spank on occasion so I must be evil anyway Roll Eyes


Is your child under the impression that he is going to die when you spank him? Hardly the same thing. Sad you would torture your own child without remorse, let alone another human being.
So you define waterboarding as torture?  Is this an absolute definition, or just your opinion?

I as an individual, cannot state this an an absolute definition, No, That is for the church to decide. I've stated what i feel, so if thats considered my opinion, then Yes on that front.

Whether it's Physical, or Psychological, using deceitful means (giving a FALSE impression of death, etc.) to get what you want, or think they have, from an individual, regardless of the situation, amounts to Torture, no matter how you try to justify it as necessary. Since FALSE, is the opposite of TRUTH, Truth being the Lord's way,  Falsehood Being that of Satan, I would think this would be clear to more people.

Just because we fear Death and Persecution, at the hands of those who would have it brought upon us, does that give us The right to use Falsehoods to prevent it? Or bring persecution, And fear of death at our hands to them?

Again George's 2cents (My opinion)
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« Reply #112 on: May 03, 2009, 03:06:59 PM »

^ Whomever said that those being waterboarded are told they will be killed? It is a coercive technique. As in- we will stop doing this thing you don't like once you tell us what we want to know. The BODY thinks it is dying, but typically the person doing the interrogation lets them know that they will not be killed- but VERY uncomfortable. And to boot- waterboarding is NOTHING compared to what our elite military forces go thru VOLUNTARILY in training.

Out of curiosity, do any of you people calling this torture have any experience in the military?
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« Reply #113 on: May 03, 2009, 03:13:38 PM »

^ Whomever said that those being waterboarded are told they will be killed?
Those who experienced it (read the examples & videos of those who voluntarily went through it given on this thread.)
Before you willingly try it on you son to get information, perhaps you should have it tried on your self first to find out what its like.

As in- we will stop doing this thing you don't like once you tell us what we want to know. And to boot- waterboarding is NOTHING compared to what our elite military forces go thru VOLUNTARILY in training.
The fact that people "VOLUNTARILY" go though things proves nothing other than the fact that they voluntarily go through things. People voluntarily (and even pay) to be tortured (eg S&M prostitution)- does that mean it doesn't hurt and you can do it on your kids?

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« Reply #114 on: May 03, 2009, 03:26:06 PM »

^ Whomever said that those being waterboarded are told they will be killed? It is a coercive technique. As in- we will stop doing this thing you don't like once you tell us what we want to know. The BODY thinks it is dying, but typically the person doing the interrogation lets them know that they will not be killed- but VERY uncomfortable. And to boot- waterboarding is NOTHING compared to what our elite military forces go thru VOLUNTARILY in training.

Out of curiosity, do any of you people calling this torture have any experience in the military?


Being forced to stand in one position for days a la the Gulag techniques doesn't necessarily lead to death either. Neither do starvation, the rack,  electric shock, or the techniques portrayed in 1984 and A Clockwork Orange,  if monitored and administered "correctly".
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« Reply #115 on: May 03, 2009, 03:39:34 PM »

^ Whomever said that those being waterboarded are told they will be killed? It is a coercive technique. As in- we will stop doing this thing you don't like once you tell us what we want to know. The BODY thinks it is dying, but typically the person doing the interrogation lets them know that they will not be killed- but VERY uncomfortable. And to boot- waterboarding is NOTHING compared to what our elite military forces go thru VOLUNTARILY in training.

Out of curiosity, do any of you people calling this torture have any experience in the military?


I never stated they were told they were being killed. Their mind and body were, by the acts themselves. Even if you tell them they won't die, Do they not suffer, if the body thinks it's dieing, does not the mind respond the same? regardless of foreknowledge? Have you yourself been through this?

the original topic was, " Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful " Not military. while you may have military experience, defining a thelogical argument based off it, is not Theologically sound.
while political and military needs may arise for the use of coercion, condonement of it, in the name of God, is wrong IMO

George's 2cents
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« Reply #116 on: May 03, 2009, 03:53:20 PM »

I usually don't tell anyone this, because of the secret nature of the job, but I find Jack Bauer to be a source of inspiration whenever I engage in torture:

Quote
Jack Bauer: But I'm the man with the gun.
Kevin Carroll: If you kill me, how are you going to find your family?
Jack Bauer: Who said anything about killing?

After I get my information, I take out my handy Ronald Wilson Reagan calling card, which says: "Trust, but verify".

That usually does the trick.


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« Reply #117 on: May 03, 2009, 04:08:13 PM »

So, basically this question is really, "Is psychological duress torture"? Absent permanent harm, no, it is not.
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« Reply #118 on: May 03, 2009, 04:33:12 PM »

So, basically this question is really, "Is psychological duress torture"? Absent permanent harm, no, it is not.

It's often difficult to measure permanent psychological harm. It's doubtful suspected terrorists will be asked back to Gitmo, for example, for follow up visits.


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« Reply #119 on: May 03, 2009, 05:21:20 PM »

So, basically this question is really, "Is psychological duress torture"? Absent permanent harm, no, it is not.

How do you decide what is permanent harm in another individual? Ask them?  How do you decide what constitutes permanent harm? How is temporary harm any different from permanent harm?
Again, I personally feel this is a Flawed viewpoint, expressed from a secular point of view not a Christian one.

While a Secular Government may feel the need to use these techniques to protect the innocent, That dosen't make it right, condemning it is all i can do.

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« Reply #120 on: May 03, 2009, 08:30:48 PM »

Um...if my son was in that situation mentioned above I would quickly and without remorse use waterboarding to get him to give up the information. There is no permanent harm and it would save lives.

But then I spank on occasion so I must be evil anyway Roll Eyes


Is your child under the impression that he is going to die when you spank him? Hardly the same thing. Sad you would torture your own child without remorse, let alone another human being.
So you define waterboarding as torture?  Is this an absolute definition, or just your opinion?

I as an individual, cannot state this an an absolute definition, No, That is for the church to decide. I've stated what i feel, so if thats considered my opinion, then Yes on that front.

Whether it's Physical, or Psychological, using deceitful means (giving a FALSE impression of death, etc.) to get what you want, or think they have, from an individual, regardless of the situation, amounts to Torture, no matter how you try to justify it as necessary. Since FALSE, is the opposite of TRUTH, Truth being the Lord's way,  Falsehood Being that of Satan, I would think this would be clear to more people.

Just because we fear Death and Persecution, at the hands of those who would have it brought upon us, does that give us The right to use Falsehoods to prevent it? Or bring persecution, And fear of death at our hands to them?

Again George's 2cents (My opinion)
So you're willing to judge Quinault because you define waterboarding as torture and she doesn't?
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« Reply #121 on: May 03, 2009, 08:42:03 PM »

In the scenario presented my son has endangered numerous people with a bomb. The life of my son is not worth more than the lives he endangers with a bomb. So if in order to save other peoples lives I have to threaten my (theoretical once again since he isn't even 2 yet) son with coercive techniques, then I would do so.
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« Reply #122 on: May 03, 2009, 08:44:55 PM »

In the scenario presented my son has endangered numerous people with a bomb. The life of my son is not worth more than the lives he endangers with a bomb. So if in order to save other peoples lives I have to threaten my (theoretical once again since he isn't even 2 yet) son with coercive techniques, then I would do so.

And then why don't expand it to branding with hot iron, cutting toes one by one, etc.? Your son's life is still the priority...
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« Reply #123 on: May 03, 2009, 08:55:59 PM »

No, the situation mentioned was using a COERCIVE method on my son. Coercive techniques do no physical long term harm or scarring. Waterboarding feels like drowning but you don't drown the person. Worst case scenario someone might end up with pnemonia if you were to do it alot and in the right conditions. Cutting off apendanges or burning someone obviously does long term physical harm. I don't think techniques that cause scarring of the body to be coercive techniques, that is actually torture in my opinion. And in the case of coercive techniques the person under interrogation is monitored by a doctor and psychologist the entire time to make sure there is no permanent harm.

And if my child was to endanger other innocent people's lives for a political ideology then I would be willing to do anything possible to keep them from doing that. I would rather have a child scarred permanently than have a child with the deaths of others on their conscience for the rest of their lives.

Afghani's like to inflate their death counts by the US because we PAY THEM money for each civilian death that occurs by our forces. A lot of the time they will KILL EACH OTHER to get the money. That culture sees kindness as weakness to be taken advantage of period. So why wouldn't the people come out of the interment centers complaining? It isn't supposed to be fun! And with all the money we dole out to these people when we are wrong (or it is politically incorrect and the French/British don't like us) there is no incentive for honesty. Do you really think that anyone would come out of being interrogated and say "it wasn't that bad"?
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« Reply #124 on: May 03, 2009, 09:00:56 PM »

No, the situation mentioned was using a COERCIVE method on my son. Coercive techniques do no physical long term harm or scarring. Waterboarding feels like drowning but you don't drown the person. Worst case scenario someone might end up with pnemonia if you were to do it alot and in the right conditions. Cutting off apendanges or burning someone obviously does long term physical harm. I don't think techniques that cause scarring of the body to be coercive techniques, that is actually torture in my opinion.
Torture is by definition coercive; what I read you saying is that there are means of coercion that don't count as torture.

IOW, ALL torture is coercion, but not all coercion is torture, or so I read you saying.
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« Reply #125 on: May 03, 2009, 09:03:18 PM »

No, the situation mentioned was using a COERCIVE method on my son. Coercive techniques do no physical long term harm or scarring. Waterboarding feels like drowning but you don't drown the person. Worst case scenario someone might end up with pnemonia if you were to do it alot and in the right conditions. Cutting off apendanges or burning someone obviously does long term physical harm. I don't think techniques that cause scarring of the body to be coercive techniques, that is actually torture in my opinion.
Torture is by definition coercive; what I read you saying is that there are means of coercion that don't count as torture.

IOW, ALL torture is coercion, but not all coercion is torture, or so I read you saying.

Yes that is right.
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« Reply #126 on: May 03, 2009, 09:50:18 PM »

Considering the vengeance of angry Yahweh in the Old Testament or even the tactics of many of the Orthodox rulers who have since been canonised, the Bush administration was quite restrained and waterboarding is child's play.  It's slightly amusing to me that some posters seem to think such an issue is black and white, whereas other issues (take homosexuality - to pick a topic at random) that have been 100% consistent in Orthodox history are presented as if they were ambiguous. 
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« Reply #127 on: May 03, 2009, 09:52:16 PM »

Um...if my son was in that situation mentioned above I would quickly and without remorse use waterboarding to get him to give up the information. There is no permanent harm and it would save lives.

But then I spank on occasion so I must be evil anyway Roll Eyes


Is your child under the impression that he is going to die when you spank him? Hardly the same thing. Sad you would torture your own child without remorse, let alone another human being.
So you define waterboarding as torture?  Is this an absolute definition, or just your opinion?

I as an individual, cannot state this an an absolute definition, No, That is for the church to decide. I've stated what i feel, so if thats considered my opinion, then Yes on that front.

Whether it's Physical, or Psychological, using deceitful means (giving a FALSE impression of death, etc.) to get what you want, or think they have, from an individual, regardless of the situation, amounts to Torture, no matter how you try to justify it as necessary. Since FALSE, is the opposite of TRUTH, Truth being the Lord's way,  Falsehood Being that of Satan, I would think this would be clear to more people.

Just because we fear Death and Persecution, at the hands of those who would have it brought upon us, does that give us The right to use Falsehoods to prevent it? Or bring persecution, And fear of death at our hands to them?

Again George's 2cents (My opinion)
So you're willing to judge Quinault because you define waterboarding as torture and she doesn't?

I've passed no judgement on anyone to my knowledge, if you wish to clarify where you think i have please do, for that is not my intent. And i apologize if it was so, or if it was taken as such. I was saddened by her own said ability to do this to her own child without any remorse.

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« Reply #128 on: May 03, 2009, 10:04:50 PM »

Um...if my son was in that situation mentioned above I would quickly and without remorse use waterboarding to get him to give up the information. There is no permanent harm and it would save lives.

But then I spank on occasion so I must be evil anyway Roll Eyes


Is your child under the impression that he is going to die when you spank him? Hardly the same thing. Sad you would torture your own child without remorse, let alone another human being.
So you define waterboarding as torture?  Is this an absolute definition, or just your opinion?

I as an individual, cannot state this an an absolute definition, No, That is for the church to decide. I've stated what i feel, so if thats considered my opinion, then Yes on that front.

Whether it's Physical, or Psychological, using deceitful means (giving a FALSE impression of death, etc.) to get what you want, or think they have, from an individual, regardless of the situation, amounts to Torture, no matter how you try to justify it as necessary. Since FALSE, is the opposite of TRUTH, Truth being the Lord's way,  Falsehood Being that of Satan, I would think this would be clear to more people.

Just because we fear Death and Persecution, at the hands of those who would have it brought upon us, does that give us The right to use Falsehoods to prevent it? Or bring persecution, And fear of death at our hands to them?

Again George's 2cents (My opinion)
So you're willing to judge Quinault because you define waterboarding as torture and she doesn't?

I've passed no judgement on anyone to my knowledge, if you wish to clarify where you think i have please do, for that is not my intent. And i apologize if it was so, or if it was taken as such. I was saddened by her own said ability to do this to her own child without any remorse.
But if YOU didn't view waterboarding as torture, would you have such a problem with Quinault's ability to "do this to her own child without any remorse"?  You see, the REAL issue is not that she would torture her child without remorse, but that you define waterboarding as torture and she doesn't, thus making her out to endorse the torture of her own child, something no sane mother would ever do.  Now, if she were to say that she has no problem using on her own child methods SHE would define as torture, then maybe you'd have good reason to judge her as a sadist and be saddened by her point of view.
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« Reply #129 on: May 03, 2009, 10:44:56 PM »

Um...if my son was in that situation mentioned above I would quickly and without remorse use waterboarding to get him to give up the information. There is no permanent harm and it would save lives.

But then I spank on occasion so I must be evil anyway Roll Eyes


Is your child under the impression that he is going to die when you spank him? Hardly the same thing. Sad you would torture your own child without remorse, let alone another human being.
So you define waterboarding as torture?  Is this an absolute definition, or just your opinion?

I as an individual, cannot state this an an absolute definition, No, That is for the church to decide. I've stated what i feel, so if thats considered my opinion, then Yes on that front.

Whether it's Physical, or Psychological, using deceitful means (giving a FALSE impression of death, etc.) to get what you want, or think they have, from an individual, regardless of the situation, amounts to Torture, no matter how you try to justify it as necessary. Since FALSE, is the opposite of TRUTH, Truth being the Lord's way,  Falsehood Being that of Satan, I would think this would be clear to more people.

Just because we fear Death and Persecution, at the hands of those who would have it brought upon us, does that give us The right to use Falsehoods to prevent it? Or bring persecution, And fear of death at our hands to them?

Again George's 2cents (My opinion)
So you're willing to judge Quinault because you define waterboarding as torture and she doesn't?

I've passed no judgement on anyone to my knowledge, if you wish to clarify where you think i have please do, for that is not my intent. And i apologize if it was so, or if it was taken as such. I was saddened by her own said ability to do this to her own child without any remorse.
But if YOU didn't view waterboarding as torture, would you have such a problem with Quinault's ability to "do this to her own child without any remorse"?  You see, the REAL issue is not that she would torture her child without remorse, but that you define waterboarding as torture and she doesn't, thus making her out to endorse the torture of her own child, something no sane mother would ever do.  Now, if she were to say that she has no problem using on her own child methods SHE would define as torture, then maybe you'd have good reason to judge her as a sadist and be saddened by her point of view.

I'm sorry, but you've obviously misunderstood my statements, and now are telling me what I meant, in your view.(But thank you for bringing it to My attention) My viewpoint differs from hers yes. I do not judge her for holding to it. And my being saddened by what she said, was in no way meant as judgement of her. I was saddened, because I feel it's not right. I fail to see how my disagreeing and being saddened by her comment, can arrive at what you've come up with, Which is far and away, from what I felt at the time I wrote the response. Again if it was received this way, I offer my heartfelt apologies, for it was not meant to be. I often have a hard time putting my thoughts and feelings in written form as it's still new to me, so mistake prone I be.

Again My Apologies to you Quinault if i offended

George
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« Reply #130 on: May 04, 2009, 11:38:34 AM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.
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« Reply #131 on: May 04, 2009, 11:42:25 AM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.
Actually, George has established that torture is evil, which provides context for his argument that because the US engages in torture, the US must be evil. This is according to the logical progression A=B, B=C, A=C. You may disagree with him, but it is indeed a logical argument and not an ad hominem.
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« Reply #132 on: May 04, 2009, 11:58:42 AM »

Don't remember the VC or North Koreans playing by the Geneva Rules...

Don't expect that Muslim extremists will...

When it comes to protecting my or a brother in arms 6 I do what needs to be done...

Some need a taste of combat...

Combat is and always has been an unfortunate part of human history.
But torture is not combat. It is subhuman, evil, demonic. It is not self defence but an extraction of revenge which the US has sunk to and has become just as evil as those it "combats" and in the process has lost any high ground.
really? The US is evil? That's news to me. Thanks for setting my country straight.  Roll Eyes Should I come on here and claim that Aussies are Lazy (and just to be clear, I do not subscribe to that view and and not claiming they are; I am just making a point about how in appropriate your coment is)? I think not. Such would be inappropriate. In fact, I would be moderated for such. But you come on here claiming that the US is evil. disgusting.
Actually, George has established that torture is evil, which provides context for his argument that because the US engages in torture, the US must be evil. This is according to the logical progression A=B, B=C, A=C. You may disagree with him, but it is indeed a logical argument and not an ad hominem.
Abortion is evil; therefore, every country that practices abortion is evil.
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« Reply #133 on: May 04, 2009, 12:01:21 PM »

Abortion is evil; therefore, every country that practices abortion is evil.
Not the same thing, actually. Torture is an act of the government, whereas abortion is an act of a private citizen, allowed by the government. The government is no more responsible for abortion than the people are for torture.
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« Reply #134 on: May 04, 2009, 12:02:21 PM »

Abortion is evil; therefore, every country that practices abortion is evil.
Not the same thing, actually. Torture is an act of the government, whereas abortion is an act of a private citizen, allowed by the government. The government is no more responsible for abortion than the people are for torture.
The government is responsible for allowing, legalizing, and, at times, financially supporting infanticide.
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Tags: torture ethics waterboarding Take that, terrorist! 
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